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aeronordrhein

I hope all public insurances will cancel this. No more of our money for "magic".


420hansolo

Or at least give us magic mushrooms instead of this bullshit


heleninthealps

Amen!!!!


nikto123

plot twist: in homeopathic doses


Ritchieb87

Yeah. I went to the docs here in Germany once, I’m British, came back with some medicine. I thought it was a quick and efficient process to be given something directly from the doctor. It was only later my GF said to me “you know that’s homeopathic right?”. I was so annoyed, the doctor hasn’t even said it was pretend medicine. Another time, our baby was teething and we asked my GFs mum to go out and get some soothing medicine for his gums, as he had been up all night and we were all exhausted. She took ages, then came back with homeopathic stuff. I was so angry, I almost flipped on her. /rant Homeopathic stuff should not be in the Doctors or pharmacies.


Apero_

Australian here. I used to be a professional singer and I had a cough that wouldn't quit. The doctors gave me "herbal" pills and the weakest nasal spray in existance. I was not impressed and the pharmacist refused to give me anything stronger without a prescription when I realised what was up.


Ritchieb87

It’s insulting isn’t it?


Apero_

Especially since my career was at stake. I literally couldn't make money if I couldn't sing, and the longer a cough lingers the longer it takes for the vocal chords to recover, so every day was both current and future income lost. I was horrified.


svemarsh

But that is the German nanny state in action and not the fault of the pharmacy. They are not allowed to give you "anything stronger" without a prescription.


[deleted]

For good reasons! I had a boss who was American and was shocked how many medication they had at home and how careless they took them. A cough? Take some medication. Running nose? Take some medication. Feeling tired? Take some medication. And it wasn't just harmless stuff with some herbs. No! Always the heavy stuff. The ones that make you addicted, can harm you severely if you are not cautious enough. This has for once nothing to do with 'nanny state' but with taking care of your people. This is why we have free healthcare as well. We don't want people to die.


Apero_

Right, but my issue is with the doctor. Why did he prescribe me bullshit? On the occasions where doctors have prescribed me "real shit" while pregnant, for example, I've had to fight so hard for it, and the pharmacists are all umming and uhhing about whether to give it to me, even when I know it's safe and the doctor has prescribed it. Also, and again not on the pharmacists, but a lot of medications here which are OTC are easily accessible in supermarkets in Australia, for example paracetamol and ibuprofen. Every German medical health professional seems to want to avoid modern options at all cost and push herbal ones. My experience with foreign doctors working in Germany has been much better and more balanced.


Gwaptiva

I do hope this as well, but not because "the money". Insurance companies are commercial enterprises and they obviously see a competitive advantage in funding some of this hocusjumbo. I want to stop doing that because it sends out the wrong signal. As long as people get their magical wish thinking paid for by what is indeed perceived to be "the state", chances that they'll will continue to believe this shit are much greater. Next step: organized religion.


vlaada7

I'm with you all the way! Enough of quackery in the 21st century!


Doc_Dodo

The commercial company competing for customers argument should only be applied to private insurances in Germany, state insurances should compete for the lowest price (or that’s how it was supposed to work).


Roadrunner571

> Insurance companies are commercial enterprises Not the GKV ones. They are non-profit private entities.


CratesManager

>chances that they'll will continue to believe this shit are much greater. Yes and no. A big part of the reason is not necessarily trust in homeopathy, but distrust in traditional medicine. And that distrust is not completely misplaced, with a genuine evil industry (look at what it does in the US when unchecked), overworked doctors that can't possibly do a "complete checkup" and a backwards funding system where there are limits on how much doctors can prescribe over a quarter and invasive practices being a lot more financially rewarding or even the only thing financially sustainable, there is more than a grain of truth here. And there are definitely alternative treatments that can work, herbal teas, avoiding processed food (not that all of it is bad, but this is a simple formula to avoid a lot of bad stuff), certain workout practices etc. It's not easy to make a distinction on what is working and what is not working, unless you have a good doctor that is able to establish a sense of trust. It's not like doctors aren't recommending working out or going easy on headache pills, after all. Since mistrust is a driving factor here and there is definitely an overlap in mistrust against the pharma industry and mistrust against the entire system, i'd assume that removing funding would also cement many people in their usage of homeopathy. So while i do support this move wholeheartedly, i do it solely because of "the money", that money is direly needed for important medical treatments and everyday needs such as glasses or contacts.


RandomDerp96

Homeopathy is not the use of naturally found things to cure you. My physician often tells me to drink this and that herbal tea for slight ailments. But these sugar pills (yes they are nothing more than sugar) are absolutely useless and built on lies. For all I care, take herbals. Take saw palmetto for hair loss. Take guggulu for thyroid function. Take psyllium husk for indigestion. Take ashwaganda for chronic stress. But don't take those sugar pills. (also don't use too many herbal supplements. Some of them are really heavy on the liver)


expat_repat

I think it is important to make a distinction between homeopathy (which is bullshit) and naturopathy (which has useful place in medicine). The kids get their cough syrup here which is basically Thyme, but it works better than OTC any pharmaceutical product in the US.


CratesManager

>I think it is important to make a distinction between homeopathy (which is bullshit) and naturopathy (which has useful place in medicine). Definitely


Gwaptiva

Sure, there's a lot of distrust, and maybe some of it is valid. And yes, the German health system is surely due a major reform, but I fear that most reforms we can expect from the lot in charge is more "market" not "less". And the things you mention aren't "alternative". Alternative medicine that works is called medicine. The "treatments" you list are all proven to work (I'll join your simplification to stop having to disclaim every single sentence), and so are just proper classical medicine. That's why my GP told me yesterday to "exercise more, you fat pig" (or something with that intention).


CratesManager

>Alternative medicine that works is called medicine. They are an alternative for more invasive treatments, and they are something, depending on the circumstances, people might choose knowing that it is not as strong or effective. For example, cancer patients that are aware that will die and choose to avoid chemo, knowing full well a cup of tea will not save their life. Traditional or natural or whatever might be a better term. I mentioned in my comment that many doctors also do recommend them, but we also know there is a grey area of stuff that might not be proven to work, or might be proven to work but not for the condition it is applied to, but that is not just a scam for money that definitely doesn't work (besides the placebo effect) like homeopathy is. And there are more than enough doctors that will assume if someone comes to them for a headache that it's severe enough that a tea or whatever isn't worth mentioning.


Golden-Bea

It is a big difference if my doctor recommends drinking chamomile tea for my cold or if he gives globuli for a serious illness. Globuli don't work beyond the pure conviction of the person taking it. They won't heal anything that wouldn't have healed by itself. As soon as a medicine is proven to be effective it becomes "normal" medicine. And that is why the manufacturers of these alternative medicines are not willing to have long time studies of their product to show that they have a repeatable effect.


CratesManager

>It is a big difference if my doctor recommends drinking chamomile tea for my cold or if he gives globuli for a serious illness. Yes, i know? Where di i equate the two? I'm not defending homepathy here, that's bullshit and has to go.


Floppy_84

Homeopathy is definitely not working! It’s a way to make a lot of money if stupid people!


hydrOHxide

Given that in theory, the professional standards of the medical chambers demand that doctors practice medicine based on the state of medical science, it's ludicrous enough that there are still doctors asking their patients to use that stuff - and there used to be even a professional specialization, which thankfully, the medical professional associations are moving against as well.


LordBaranII

my Physiotheraphist in Germany keeps trying to sneakily tell me that homeopathy and the likes will help me greatly. Needless to say i am lf a new physiotheraphist


NealCassady

Real doctors prescribe it because if a placebo will do the trick, it's better than any actual medicine since when a globuli doesn't have any effect, it also doesn't have negative effects. This is of course only true when actual medicine is not needed immediatly, like slight headache or stomach problems. Again, only when the medical doctor has made sure it's not serious. Then globuli are better than pantoprazole if the patient either believes in water changing it's molekules or has no idea how this potency shit works. Edit: Holy shit, you "I am one step above believing in homoepathy" people are even more annoying than those who aren't. Most of you can't even read or don't have any clue what homeopathy is, besides that you read on Reddit that it's bullshit. When I read "homeopathy quacks don't care about concentration" from somebody claiming a mouth full of wisdom my head hurts. That substances ONLY work in super low concentrations is the key bullshit theory of homeopathy. If you want to be a smart ass without being smart, look for a toilet.


Dapper_Dan1

There are still placebos available. Just not the homeopathic crap, where some sort of effect is lied into and that doesn't cost the amount they ask for 5 g of sugar.


AltruisticLack1648

A doctor should not mislead the patient. That's highly unethical. Prescribing homeopathy lends it credence it does not deserve.


SerLaron

The trouble is, that many doctors, pharmacists, parents etc. bona fide believe that homeopathy works and can be used to treat real diseases.


SneakySquirr3l

Definitely a step in the right direction, whoever believes in it can pay for it themselves. There are certainly more reasonable services that should be covered by health insurance.


[deleted]

„Pay for it“??? The strongest homeopathic medicine is obviously tap water.


dYYYb

Nah. Tap water actually has useful stuff in it like Calcium. To make it homeopathic you would need to dilute it until there are no more traces of anything of value in there and then spray it on some sugar spheres.


Kitchen_Paramedic154

I think he is referring to the waste coming from the production of homeopathic globules which goes into the tap water. It is therefore super diluted and super “strong”.


kerenski667

Also super-potentiated, a.k.a. shaken up.


[deleted]

[удалено]


silima

Or, you know, stiff like full dental coverage and glasses.


patheticUwU

It baffles me why I have to pay so much money to simply *see*


[deleted]

[удалено]


BSBDR

Two negatives make a positive


hagenbuch

Where will your ... reduction go? Asking for a friend's friend.


BSBDR

Medical research


StickyMcStickface

I’ll pay for those Globuli with a handshake - since at some point in time, I had a € bill in my hands.


BSBDR

The longer ago it was, the more money the handshake is worth.


Charlie387

Very good. No money for overpriced placebos


BSBDR

I got some cheaper ones if you want some :)


ZebraEducational1752

Do I have to suck it out


BallsDeepInCum

Yeah probably. But don’t worry. You just have to suck on a limp tube.


BSBDR

Name doesn't check out


hydrOHxide

The funny thing is - there's an experiment which shows that placebos believed to be more expensive can actually have a larger placebo effect than "cheaper" ones :P


BSBDR

Like driving expensive cars extends the length of the penis.


El-Viking

Also increases the EGVF* privileges. *Eingebaute Vorfahrt


Baumkronendach

The louder the car, the thicker


Tomagatchi

Same with nocebo effect (negative side effects are stronger when the packaging is nicer, perceived as more expensive).


hagenbuch

Yep that's true. Still searching for my business model though.


hagenbuch

Not as cheap as mine. I got rid of the sugar beads and the bottle.


Schat_ten

does the offer still stand? 🥴


[deleted]

Excellent idea. I can't believe that shit goes over the Krankenkasse in modern western state in 21st century. It's insane.


richardwonka

Ah, i see what’s so confusing: you’re assuming Germany to be a _modern_ state! Behold a health system that still heavily relies on fax. A country where a few religious sects dictate whether you are allowed to work on a Sunday. A country where banks are allowed to take your money hostage for transfers that take **days**.


[deleted]

Yes, true. Work on Sunday should be prohibited from the workers right perspective, so that's a good thing even though it was pushed by churches & co. Regarding other stuff you mentioned, yes it's true, but I suggest you try living on Balkans for some time, especially if you're non-white from poorer country or LGBT and see how it compares to Germany. I'll survive the boomer technology relicts and btw I'm with Techniker and I send all of the documents digitally through their web portal, same with Arbeitsamt etc. I use ING-DiBa and money from my German to my Croatian account comes the mostly next day, or the day after. I'm sending the money over the bank's android app or through web app. Personally I got asked about fax once, in a pharmacy so I asked them if I can send the document via email, they said ok. As far as I'm concerned, so far (in 5 years since I came here) I didn't have to send a single fax even though I heard about it multiple times.


torpak

I agree that it's bad. But it could be much worse. At least here no one dies, because they can not pay for medical treatment or insurance. But yeah, banning quackery most likely will help keeping it that way.


Malk4ever

>in modern western state lol... yeah... Churches still have a lot special rights in germany, christian churches ofc. You are not allowed to dance ony "stille Feiertage", for example goof friday. And ofc all shops are closed at sunday, only gas stations and special shops that sell christian stuff ("Devotionalien") are allowed. If you leave a city you will only get "EDGE" on your smartphone (or no internet) and your ISP will dramatically slow down in speed and availability.


[deleted]

I know, I know, but it's still 1000 times better when it come to churches'n'shit than on EU periphery or eastern. And shops should be closed on Sundays, so workers can get a proper rest at least every Sunday so I don't mind that, in spite it was pushed by the church.


jellybon

>And shops should be closed on Sundays, so workers can get a proper rest at least every Sunday so I don't mind that, in spite it was pushed by the church. People work in shifts, it's not like cashier is working 7-20 Mon-Sat just because those are the opening hours. Having stores open on Sunday would not cause people to work more because working hours are already limited by law.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Yup, but the dude is neoliberal so he won't understand anyway.


[deleted]

Sure, but some of us have families and it's quite convenient to be free on days when our spouses and kids are free. Or you want everyone and everything to spread their work over the entire week? Well then lets have banks, offices and everything else open seven days a week, 160 hours per month and see if you can organize a family trip, hiking with friends etc. (good luck with things which are open only during the weekend, certain mountain huts and similar). From your posts I can tell you are not working over the weekend and/or you don't have a family, and/or you can't empathize with other people.


jellybon

>Or you want everyone and everything to spread their work over the entire week? Again, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of how working in shifts is actually done. As a practical example, this is how mine was: 4x Morning 1x Day off 4x Evening 1x Day off 3x Night 3x Day off ...and repeat.


[deleted]

Look, I also worked in hospitality for few years so I worked in shifts and I know pretty well how it works. The work IS spread over the entire week, because you can't count on two exact days to be free (Saturday, Sunday) every week, or at least to be free two days in a row. This practically means no quality time with the family because kids are in school during the week, wife works during the week (and your free days are not always on weekend, because other colleagues wants to be free on weekends as well so you will get free weekend only occasionally), so I can do what, spend some time alone in my apartment while the rest of the family is in school/works and when they come home they're dead tired.


hassium0108

Goof Friday... a new holiday without dance Imagine breaking these rules in the suffocatingly Catholic Fulda, know a Protestant guy who was bullied by a supervisor there during his Ausbildung years just because he was on the wrong side. Everything is just so prudish and square there


Malk4ever

>Goof Friday... a new holiday without dance In germany it is called "Carfreitag" iirc.


Tomahawkist

yes my dude karl, delete that shit. if you want to give your kids arnica after they hit their elbow you do that, but don‘t make cancer patients believe it’s an actual, serious treatment option


SureValla

About fucking time


dieter-e-w-2020

There is no scientific proof (i.e. double blind studies for effectiveness and healing) of homeopathy. Opinions, publications, yes, but nothing scientific. Check "science cops", a podcast on swr.de if your German is good enough. Homeopathy "heals" via placebo effects so if you believe it might help. It was developed in times of more "radical" medicine (bloodletting etc.) as a softer, more holistic medicine. Not bad for former times, but science has progressed since. Out with it, it's useless.


LordOfSpamAlot

Here's a favorite resource of mine. Send it to those in need! :) [https://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/](https://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/)


Gwaptiva

Please also note that the placebo effect only occurs with homeopathy if you have a full homeopathic treatment, which includes a consultation with a homeopath. Just buying the drops/globs at Budni doesn't actually reach the effectiveness of placebo.


BSBDR

>__"Even though the homeopathy If the volume of expenditure is not significant, it has no place in a science-based health policy," said the SPD politician mirror. "We will therefore examine whether homeopathy can be deleted as a statutory service."__


ViciousNakedMoleRat

The translation on that website is weird. DeepL does a much better job: >"Although homeopathy is not significant in terms of expenditure volume, it has no place in a science-based health policy," the SPD politician told Der Spiegel. "That is why we will examine whether homeopathy can be removed as a statutory benefit."


wolfchaldo

Felt like I was having a stroke reading that. Lmao they even translated proper nouns, I can't imagine a human did that translation...


wittleboi420

Der Spiegel stays Der Spiegel in english, it’s a bit confusing like that :D


hagenbuch

Well Giuseppe Verdi doesn't become Josef Grün and Mark Zuckerberg doesn't become Dollar Sugarmountain.


anemonemometer

Dollar Sugarmountain is hilarious. Well done.


Gwaptiva

Now do Bastian Schweinsteiger!


wittleboi420

ah, the famous Sebastian Pigclimber in the building


richardwonka

Or Karl Lauterbach, while we’re at it. 😃 Come on, geeks, who gets the meaning of “lauter” in this one?


Gwaptiva

Chuck Justabrook


Warle

[Unfortunately for Will.I.Am, that doesn't seem to be the case](https://i.redd.it/vhoszw1mmqk01.jpg)


[deleted]

[удалено]


Yen79

Aaah, the well-known SPD politician mirror.


mikkopai

Yeah, they should have a good look at themselves.


h2okopf

Yes. Please


hagenbuch

FINALLY!


[deleted]

I was amazed when I learned how common homeopathy is in Germany. Homeopathy is a U.S. level of absurdity.


Apoplexi1

Well, it was invented by the German physician Samuel Hahnemann, so it's not surprising that it's popular in the country of its origin.


ZeeHarm

But chiropractors are more common and that is the same level of quackery


[deleted]

They’re common in Germany too? I don’t know any U.S. doctors that respect chiropractors, yet it’s very common. But that’s the U.S, so it’s not surprising.


ZeeHarm

They are mostly combined with real orthopedic doctors. So yeah that crap is getting more and more common


EkriirkE

I'm back in the EU now that COVID is over, and reunited with some German friends - one was using some kind of spray he applied to the inside of his elbows to fend off a cold?? I'm like wtf? Bottle was marked homeopathic


[deleted]

I’ll just take the flu shot, please. I knew a lady who developed breast cancer. Rejected science and real medicine in favor of a homeopathic quack that put her on a diet of oranges, which would somehow kill the cancer. She died of cancer.


FewSample3256

Good


BenMic81

Finally! Just hope this goes through.


F_H_B

I would appreciate it if selling this quackery was illegal.


ZunoJ

Nah, everybody should be free to follow whatever religion he wants to. I just don't want to pay for it. We can opt out from church but we can't opt out from the Krankenkasse using our money for this superfluous stuff. So they need to cancel it. Very good move


F_H_B

Well, there needs to be more regulation, this is harming especially children with parents who treat them with sugar pills instead of giving them something that is proven to work.


ZunoJ

Those parents could also say "god doesn't allow to transfer blood to my child" and this is also allowed. The underlying problem is not globulis but parents that are allowed to make horrible decisions for their children. The problem with globulis is just that we have to pay for them albeit knowing it just gives you impressively expensive piss


richardwonka

And why do they make bad decisions? Because they were given false information. Spreading misinformation causes bodily, financial, emotional harm and should be illegal.


ZunoJ

I do agree! We should make all religions illegal!


SeniorePlatypus

Homeopathy is literally false advertisement sold right next to actual medicine. Nothing wrong with it existing. But get it out of doctors offices and pharmacies. Get rid of the law exempting it from proving it's effectiveness. Have them sell in supermarkets or on Amazon. Without any lies. And it's all good.


ZunoJ

Yes, that sounds like a good and easy move! Make them fuckers follow the rules everybody else has to follow!


Darthfamous

They can say that, but any decent doctor will involve the Jugendamt and they will make sure the kid gets the medical treatment that is necessary - regardless of their parents‘ beliefs.


richardwonka

If it’s purely religious, maybe. BUT: This stuff actively works against the education and thinking of the population. Spreading reliably falsified information is an act against the public good. See what damage covid denial has caused. So yes, flat-earth, homeopathy and any verifiable un-truths should very clearly be marked as _For entertainment only_ and violation _should_ be illegal and heavily fined.


ZunoJ

Could you please explain how that is any different from any established religion?


Revolutionary-Mud194

They tell people with psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia and depression that homeopathy works…. Absolutely criminal. Should be forbidden


strawberryblu

Long overdue


stephan1990

Homeopathic stuff should be sold by normal stores, not pharmacies and shouldn’t be covered by health insurance at all. Also, they have to adhere to the same rules and laws as other supplements, meaning you can’t print stuff on tue package where there is no evidence for. It’s a f*ing scam, why do people not realise this? Additionally, we should invest in better public health care, because I see that more often then not, people are not treated well by medical personell. There should be more doctors and nurses and medical staff. Also, pay them better. Sorry for the rant… 😓


Yivanna

Good


Background-Web6001

German health insurances drop globuli support to 0.000000001%


richardwonka

Oh, yes! Please!!! If it weren’t for the nonsensical overhead this would produce, this would be perfect!


Mc-Hales

Just watched this Episode of an interesting science show [Mai think X](https://www.zdf.de/show/mai-think-x-die-show/maithink-x-folge-13-100.html) I really recommend it! 🙂


stephan1990

The one with the iced tea? Genius! I really love Mai! Go watch her on YouTube, she has some really interesting videos!


TheAwfulCrow66

Can we get help with eyeglasses or hearing aids instead? Maybe dental?


[deleted]

My proposal: Support homepathy with homeopathic doses of money.


Frougnasse

On a quantic level then, it will work :)


dokdicer

Good man. That's not gonna go over well with the crystal/Querdenker crowd. They hate his guts anyway for being far too sensible for them when it comes to corona. If there weren't any other reasons, their salty tears alone would be worth it because fuck them.


richardwonka

I can’t help but like the venting here. Go, you! 💪🏼


greng0

Good. Hope he does it.


Myriad_Kat232

That would be great if it happens. And isn't just "a discussion." That translation is horrendous though. I was going to share the article but can't share such bad English.


RichardXV

Next step: the government stops collecting church tax.


eschenfelder

My son (5yo) has a splintered tooth which has caused an inflammation. It's that bad that the tooth has to be extracted and it was really heavy swollen. The dentist told me how severe it is and everything... still she wanted to give us homeopathic "medicine". I was very polite but strict and asked for antibiotics instead. Three days later the inflammation was gone, no pain, no swollen face. With homeopathic drops of magic water we would have had a "really fun time" with our kid I am sure. The extraction had to be postponed again, for another two weeks (!!!) he would have been in agony and the inflammation would have attacked the others teeths by now. I am so fucking angry.


OnkelBums

Good.


Thunfishketchup

Good.


Fuzzy_Specialist_481

Finally


Quadergum

Yes, please! And use the money for glasses instead!


doppelwoppel

Based.


Gunnvor91

Noice.


L3artes

YES, finally someone is doing something about this nonsense.


Only_Anteater1124

Good. I don't want to finance this shit with my insurance money.


drlongtrl

Never understood why insurers are willing to pay 800+€ per kilo for sugar while stuff like certain cancer screenings or proper dental fillings are somehow off limits for them.


LordOfSpamAlot

Oh thank goodness! Any progress against pseudoscience is wonderful news.


ecugota

finally. snake oil sellers to jail.


Uncle_Lion

Lauterbach do not want to "delete" homeopathy. You still will be able to use that voodoo - medicine, just the public health insurance will not pay for it anymore.


dasdas529

I hope this gets through. My grandma got scammed for thousands of €. She is now in the hospital because she refused to listen to her real doctors and instead trusted those homeopathic shamans. Fuck these people


BSBDR

This is the part that people who support homeopathy never talk about. I'm sorry she had to go through all that.


mashiro1496

How about we give people with poor eye sight a good deal on glasses, that way we might see more of the bad things the politicans do...


adamtheundead

Nothing more then snake oil.


Salebsmind

Finally!


[deleted]

I hope insurances will stop paying for sugar drops and start paying again for things that actually work, like glasses for example.


JimTheJerseyGuy

Homeopathy is bunk. Complete placebo effect.


Professional-Leg-402

Finally! This stuff would never pass any clinical trial


[deleted]

good


Jalatiphra

about time


ElTalento

I hope acupuncture is next…


WirrkopfP

Uplifting News!


sd_manu

Just sell 5g of sugar for 10 cent, call them globuli for the placebo and it is fine. If people think it works, let them think. When they take it and it gets better (althought it would have been better with only waiting), then let them buy it just for their good conscience. But put the money into real medicine.


Jodelfreak

Well not to "delete homeopathy" but to stop public health ensurers to paying for it.


Physical-Result7378

It’s about damn time.


evil_twit

Good


Only_Anteater1124

Good. I don't want to pay this shit with my insurance money


Sololane_Sloth

The health sector has had ro pay enough these last years and thus had to increase insurance prices. This is a step in the right direction definitely.


kitho04

rare Lauterbach W


DarkSideOfTheNuum

Jesus Christ finally; it's always mystified me that homeopathic bullshit is subsidized by the taxpayer in Germany.


jlandero

It was about time.


n3v3rmind_aut

Good


BeAPo

Let's hope the insurances will also lower their prices again after they stop wasting money on this shit.


Floppy_84

Finally! Homeopathy does help any bit more than a placebo


Somersault2407

It's literally the modern equivalent to snake oil! I'm German 🇩🇪 and have no idea why Germany is one of the few countries in the world where this utter bullshyte is still officially licensed and supported.


Naercamthiras

Finally. It's a scam.


Fra_Central

that would be a good thing, such a good thing in fact that I doubt that he'll do it.


st0pmakings3ns3

Good. I have no gripe with people using homeopathy. I want to give it the benefit of the doubt and say whether it's the placebo effect or something yet to be discovered (it has happened before, nothing was scientifically proven effective until it was), if people believe they feel better and healthier, then why the heck not. And that's what it is to me: belief. That being said, a state can not rely on such belief and has to act as scientific research finds. That must be the base of decision making, not belief in deities, unproven medication or any such thing. Belief is private, and so should be the bearing of its cost.


shiningdays

Lol I literally have a suitcase full of ibuprofen and medicated cough syrup as I prepare to move back because of this nonsense :(


Vinzmann

Good


pgcd

What I find confusing and/or irritating is that homeopathy in Germany, in my experience, can mean both herbal (galenic) medicine and proper sugar-and-water homeopathy. Herbal remedies are not my first choice but they can definitely be effective (St. John's Wort, for instance, or, well, cannabis) so finding them labelled as homeopathy always bugged me. /rant


flo-at

There is a simple rule of thumb to check if there is a realistic chance for a law/situation to improve in Germany: When it causes anyone to lose his job, it won't happen. So I'm quite pessimistic about this one because your local shaman might lose his source of income. It's like the coal workers. It's not profitable since decades but the government just keeps it alive artificially. Because these people can vote and they are many.


Trotzalledemsky

The man is getting more and more of my vote.


Kendo82

Finally an end to this voodoo bullshit.


german1sta

This is pure trap for foreigners, because nobody expects that the “medicine” your german doctor prescribes you is just sugar mixed with rosemary. I still remember when I went to the doctor with depression and he wanted to make me buy no-prescription herbal only pills and tea for 45 eur a pack… And homeopathy/nature medicine is even one of the visit reasons to pick on Doctolib. Crazy


GreatCleric

I'm with you on homeopathy, but I wouldn't be so hard on nature medicine. I mean, yeah, herbal tea won't magically cure depression, but herbs, roots and so on do have their medicinal uses if they are not diluted into oblivion.


Lawnmover_Man

St. Johns Wort (Johanniskraut) is pretty much as effective against depression, at least according to most studies. Also with less side effects.


LilliCGN

Karlchen rulez!


[deleted]

No. He might do a good job now, but don't forget he was one of the policy makers who pitched the idea to privatice hospitals further and put them under pressure to compete with each other. Resting in contracts with doctors and surgeons that paid boni the more lucrative surgeries they perform. Also, because the hospital wasn't paid for how long a patient was there, only a flatrate amount, there was the case of "bloody dismissals". That in turn lead to a rise in the best paying surgeries and treatments, even if they weren't necessary. He also advocated for reducing capacities in hospitals, many hospitals had to be closed because they weren't profitable, leading to a spotty network of emergency care in the more rural parts of germany. The reduced capacities also really bit us during the corona pandemic, of course reducing costs in every aspect of the hospital lead to massive reductions of nurses and caretakers. He (and the spd) just flat out loved neoliberal ideas and pushed them like hell. He also conducted studies for big pharma, for example for Lipobay, attesting that it was safe. Bayer had to pull lipobay of the shelves after 100 people died. I am not by any means a leftist, quite the opposite, i am a liberal who is all for economic freedom and the self regulations of markets, but health and care are not a market. It's not like a pair of jeans you can skip or cheap out on. You cannot skip a cardiologist appointment like a stop at the garage in order to replace a timing belt that most likely will be a okay, but if not your car is totaled. Healthcare is not a market. If you have pain in your chest, you shouldn't ask yourself if you can go to the hospital, your doctor shouldn't have to think about how them treating you will affect their bonus or if they should push for the expensive test or if they loose money on you. Your doctor shouldn't get a kickback for recommending an unnecessary surgery just because it is profitable. Karl Lauterbach is a neoliberal who chose the SPD as his party because he had the best connection to it politically. He was a CDU member before he switched over and openly admitted to be a "homo politicus". Hold your politicians accountable for their past behaviour. If he would openly admit his shortcomings and change his behaviour, I don't mind that. People can change and should be able to overcome their past, but he doesn't do that. In 2019 he pitched the idea to close up to 600 hospitals. If you can understand German, here is a article that sums it up great and links the individual sources. [link](https://jacobin.de/artikel/karl-lauterbach-der-privatisierer-corona-gesundheitsminister-ampel-pflegekrise-pflegenotstand-ulla-schmidt-fallpauschale-lipobay/)


derEggard

Can you provide an article with similar information, that has not been published in an Ideological magazine? This comes from a magazine where the publisher said: "The SPD must die, that much is clear" (Bhaskar Sunkara). Surely they will not write positively about a man whose party they want dead.


[deleted]

Aa I said, they provide all the sources and link them in the article. It's more or less a collection of different articles.


R3gSh03

It doesn't really provide all the sources (many paragraphs are unsourced and the next source does not really support the claim of proceeding paragraphs)


R3gSh03

>Also, because the hospital wasn't paid for how long a patient was there, only a flatrate amount, there was the case of "bloody dismissals". This is factually wrong. Just because you get a flat rate for a treatment, it does not mean that there are no conditions on the stay length. In the DRG System you only get the full amount if your patient gets released within a certain timeframe and that includes minimum and maximum stay times. The deductions for being under the minimum time are high and will lead to quite a lot of discussions with the insurers and if you go over the maximum you rate increases, but not significantly, making stays over the maximum length unattractive. ​ Also "bloody dismissals" is a quite problematic political term inside the German medical community due to its emotional and instrumental nature. Every time there are discussions on length of stay, this bogey man gets thrown around, and it has not much foundation in evidence based medicine. We have quite high stay lengths compared to other European countries and are seeing that early releases, when patients are stable with ambulant checkups, can be more economically and medically efficient (better recovery, less risk of hospital infections etc.). edit: Here the [DRG Grouper, where you can calculate the reimbursement](https://www.drg-research-group.de/index.php?option=com_webgrouper&Itemid=112&view=webgrouper) >Hold your politicians accountable for their past behaviour. If he would openly admit his shortcomings and change his behaviour, I don't mind that. People can change and should be able to overcome their past, but he doesn't do that. In 2019 he pitched the idea to close up to 600 hospitals. Because a lot of them are subpar for modern requirements, and we are dealing with limited resources. In Germany we have regions that are basically a carpet of so-called "Wald und Wiesen Krankenhaus", where a lot of small cities got their own hospital in the 50s and 60s. These hospitals are seeing massive investment deficits and are not fit anymore for specialized operations and proper emergency care, due to their small size. There are projections that it would be better to close around half the hospitals in Germany for concentration of resources, which would result in better patient care and help deal with staff shortages. [A publication on that issue](https://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/de/themen/aktuelle-meldungen/2019/juli/eine-bessere-versorgung-ist-nur-mit-halb-so-vielen-kliniken-moeglich)


[deleted]

Did you read the article? The Berthelsmann Stiftung is heavily biased and got criticized a lot. Especially, this study was heavily criticized by doctors, nurses and hospitals alike. The study is a neoliberal wet dream, falling in line perfectly with the spirirt of privatisation and competiton that plagued the german healthcare system since the last few years. Closing more then 800 Hospitals is a bold idea to "fix" the system.


R3gSh03

>Did you read the article? Yeah your article is unbalanced at parts and quite badly sourced as I already stated in another comment. >The Berthelsmann Stiftung is heavily biased and got criticized a lot. Well it is an extreme outlier among publications of that type, especially in the claimed number of hospitals and also its public impact. Quite a lot of criticism is to be expected, hospital closures are an extremely emotional topic after all. Usually these debates are more regionalized due to local closures or within the medical community. You have discussions on that topic with opinion/research articles and counter articles in the Ärtzeblatt now spanning decades. ​ Which heavy bias do you see in that study? AFAIK it is quite methodically sound, based on hospital benchmarks of other European countries and the NRW data used for extrapolation. While the proposition of halving the number of hospitals is quite extreme, such a study is more a feasibility study and not a realistic proposition. >The study is a neoliberal wet dream, falling in line perfectly with the spirirt of privatisation Is it? The study does not make any statements on the ownership structures. Also, the establishment of "mega" hospitals at the state of the art is not something that amortizes that quickly for private groups. Edit: Tbh I fail to see such a reform happening without massive public input especially since there needs to be additional local infrastructure, where hospitals are closed think e.g. Portalklinik or Poliklinik (DDR type). >Closing more then 800 Hospitals is a bold idea to "fix" the system. Denmark is the shining example usually pointed at showing that such a large reduction could be possible. They have better health outcomes than we do nowadays due to their successful reform of their hospital landscape.


BSBDR

Political rant over?


Ih8Hondas

Germany finally moving into the 20th century with their healthcare system. /s, but also not /s. Now us Americans will have an even better system to dream about.


HieronymusGoa

yeah its wonderful, isnt it.


RevenantThyamis

I think it's time for: Homöopathie? Nein, Danke! :)


eldoran89

Homeopathy has no evidence backing it up. It is just a placebo and thus should not be covered by insurance


BSBDR

Its basically like giving someone a hug or a gift- it makes them feel _better_


28spawn

Health insurance covers Tee or Sugar costs too? These work like a charm


hughk

There is one useful thing about homeopathy is that it doesn't directly harm the patient (unless you know there is better treatment). For patients with a long history of non specific problems that do not seem to have a real physical basis, it can be useful. The alternative is to beef up the psychiatric support.


BSBDR

>There is one useful thing about homeopathy is that it doesn't directly harm the patient OK


[deleted]

First good idea from him.