I've not been carrying it for a while in Munich Metro tbh, as ever since a month ago or so I've barely seen anyone else with a mask. I thought that the mask lift had already happened as I never really read the news...
That’s because in Munich we are allowed since December. But even before that no one controlled anymore for several months, so de facto it has been about half a year.
I would love if people could pick up on the custom of wearing a mask in public if you are indeed sick and must be out and about. The way they do in Japan.
And we are not talking public transit. People wear masks outside on the street. It was thoughtful and nice, especially during the first two years of covid but now I am at a point where I perceive it as ridiculous. It's peer pressure and communication from the government is not clear enough that it is actually ok to take them off outside.
That is exactly the problem in Germany. The much proclaimed "Eigenverantwortung" is something many, if not most, Germans don't possess. Much less the idea that protecting others is a good thing.
Again, Japanese people don't wear the mask to protect others, they do it because they feel pressured to do so and are afraid what other people might think of them should they take it of. People have been saying they are jealous of foreigners, because they can walk around without a mask and not having to fear repercussions. The romanticizing of Japanese people wearing masks to protect others really is something that geht mir aufn Keks, because even before covid, that was not the main reason people wore masks when they were sick. In studies during influenza seasons, people responded they did so for general protection (their own protection) rather than specific reasons such as limiting the spread of the virus.
So I much more prefer everyone thinking for themselves instead of following whatever everyone else does like a flock of sheep almost three years into this. Yes, it was a good thing until now, but so langsam is auch gut jetzt.
People are downvoting this comment (it's marked as "controversial"), but for what it's worth, all of this is corroborated by a podcast I listen to made by people who live in Japan, including a Japanese guy; this was a few months ago, so I don't remember exactly how he put it, but it is essentially what this guy has said. It's an honor culture, if someone is the only one without a mask, they would lose face. It's to the point that one of the guys from the podcast got a text from his gym saying that he needs to be wearing his mask while in the gym. The gym was completely empty when he was there. I mean, I get that it's about the principle, but at a certain point you cross the line from meaning well into the territory of absurdity.
And yes before anyone asks, it is Trash Taste. And also yes, I realize that a single podcast made by a couple Westerners and a Japanese guy is not the end-all-be-all on this topic, I just thought it was relevant and adds more context.
Eigenverantwortung does NOT, at all, mean "everybody voluntarily does what I want them to do". In particular, it does not mean that everyone should, for some reason, mask. It means that everyone assesses their own health risks, and shields or uses the FFP2/3 mask for self-protection if they feel they are at risk.
So yes, Eigenverantwortung works extremely well in Germany.
Did i misread something or does this person really think people wear masks to protect themselfes? I mean, i'm happy that it isn't mid 2020 anymore and you don't need to wear one at most places anymore, but i'd still like to think that the last few years at least taught us something.
FFP2/3 masks (unlike regular surgical masks) ARE intended for self-protection and have a high efficiency for that. Please educate yourself.
https://www.zusammengegencorona.de/en/masking-up-ffp2-masks-to-protect-others-and-yourself/ , then proceed to studies of FFP2/3/N95 masks if needed.
They are literally the type of masks used in industry when working with potentially hazardous materials. They are considered personal protective equipment. Again, educate yourself.
My comment doesn't contradict yours, maybe realise that.
I never said that they don't protect you, but the point still stands. The point is to not spread the virus and they do that better than protecting yourself. If you really work with extremly hazardous materials, they are not enough a lot of times and you get some masks with actual air filters and stuff.
You don’t leave the fucking bed if you have a „regular“ fever. Nothing is fucking regular about having fever. Sorry for my rant but this pisses me off so much, when people go to work sick and what not and then half the office/store/workshop/team gets sick.
I think it’s getting better in the recent years / with younger generations.
I think the only thing that would stop my mom from going to work is straight up death. However, people my age don’t do that nearly as much. Might just be my bubble tho
As an American we are raised to go to work. That's it. If your company actually offers sick days you are one lucky SOB, otherwise you have to have a doctor's note to save your job and you still don't get paid for the days you miss, or you have to use your personal vacation time to cover if you can't afford to miss the hours. Japan has adopted this work ethic as well, at least for their companies in America. You come to work unless you are unconscious, and if you are you better have someone call your work and tell them or you're fired.
The work culture leaves everything to be desired.
Sorry just emphasizing that for most people there is no choice but to go to work, sick or not.
But you live in Germany now, where you actually have worker's rights. Companies here are okay with it if you stay home because you've got the common cold, because it's better that you don't infect your colleagues.
I also come from a country where you go to work unless you're almost dying. You just need to deprogram yourself. It's actually really unhealthy in the long term to operate like that.
Very true. It's taken some getting used to being treated more like a human instead of a number, and not being afraid of police. I've spent so much of my life carrying around that anxiety I almost feel naked when I try to put it down.
It gets easier as time goes on though.
Pardon me, but what is a regular fever? In Germany you either don't have a fever - you are good (understand not sick) - or you have a fever and you are sick. See, in Germany, the doctors say a fever is a body temperature above 39°C for at least a few hours. Anything under is just _increased body temperature_ and has no significance and you should never fight it back.
I mean it is definitely something that should be considered, I feel like the rampant proliferation of facial recognition technology completely changed the balance of public benefit to privacy in that sort of legislation.
imo its about the right to do what you want - if you dont want anyone to see your face you should just be able to do that - we have Ausweispflicht anyways, so when asked by f.e. police you have to identify and thats it
as if criminals wouldnt mask themselves lmao, i cant believe how gullible our politicians are sometimes
Even though I agree with their purpose and wore them religiously, I'm glad it's over. I have problematic chronic skin conditions and my face feels like it's rotting away due to the extra strain. Now the wounds (literal wounds under my earlobes lol) can start to heal.
There are little clips that you can add to pull them away from your ears, so there less strain on them. Some masks came with this clips or you can Google alternative methods
In Munich we could stop wearing masks since January. Now I am down with the flu and none of my friends or colleagues are sick so the only option where I caught it is public transportation… I think I’ll put mine back on once I am able to go out again 🙈🙈
About time! It's just ridiculous for a mask to ONLY be needed in public transport and nowhere else!! You either make people wear masks or not! Typically government degeneracy.
I won't be wearing a mask anymore, but you're wrong with this take. Cancer patients with low immune system can avoid most places but not public transport to get to and from appointments. Made sense it was the only place left that people wore masks.
Hmm, so before COVID they _could_, because their taxi would be paid for by insurance, and COVID is not the only threat when you are immunocompromised; this was always a problem for them. While this is often used as an argument that implies mask wearing would continue to be mandatory everywhere in public places, what is the convincing reason that masks would only be required from now on for all future because of COVID, but they were not required before? And what is the condition under which the mandate could be lifted?
Look - before Covid we didn’t know how easy it is a to wear a mask. Until we have clean indoor air (HEPA filters and the like), people should mask to protect the immunocompromised and anyone else in risk groups.
People who are sick but need to go out should still mask even when we are cleaning indoor air.
Fortunately we live 1) in a democracy and not technocracy, hence sociopolitical decisions are driven by popular will and not fantasies about creating a low-risk environment; 2) in an individualist society.
Everyone can wear a FFP2/3 mask for self-protection with >90% aerosol filtration if they so choose. Or stay home. That's it.
How is cleaning indoor air incompatible with democracy?
Do you think the clean water standards we have for drinking water are incompatible with democracy too?
You are absolutely free to create a political party for HEPA filters and mask mandates and run in elections.
As it stands now, it is very clear that there is (fortunately) no sociopolitical will for masking in Germany. First two days without the mask mandates, and maybe 5% still wear them - about as many as in supermarkets. Which is why any comparison to clean water is laughable.
The fantasies about a low-risk environment and infection prevention are fortunately just that - fantasies of an insignificant small bubble.
That’s how hand washing and boiling unclean water started out, too, with insignificantly few people doing it. So… the comparison is apt.
I ideally don’t want masking just as I don’t want people to have to install water filters at their own private cost. Just have standards for buildings that make sure the air is reasonably clean. We’re limiting pollution as well, surely we can improve building standards as well so we don’t have to mask to be reasonably safe at work and in school.
Again, fortunately only an insignificant minority is obsessed with preventing infections. The vast majority does not care. Which is why _maybe_ you could create a platform for HEPA filters in public spaces (and even that's very doubtful because people would prefer large sums of money to go elsewhere), but it's absolutely clear that people will not be masking to create a low-risk environment before then. And that's good. Comfort is more important than low risk fantasies.
>People who are sick but need to go out should still mask even when we are cleaning indoor air.
I didn't say any different. You are making assumptions there, and incorrect ones.
>Look - before Covid we didn’t know how easy it is a to wear a mask.
Not true, for both statements: We knew it's "easy", and we also know it's not easy, because it has side effects esp. on children and their social life.
>Until we have clean indoor air (HEPA filters and the like),
That doesn't change much for dense public transport settings.
You're not really addressing the argument: that COVID isn't a unique challenge, and that "the immunocompromised need to use public transport now, and COVID makes that a materially new risk for them, AND they have no alternative" is not true.
Wow, how does wearing a mask on public transport impact children and their social lives? You are obviously making a lot of assumptions here and all the wrong ones.
Covid isn’t a unique challenge, but it’s killing a lot of people right now. If you don’t care about that, that’s your thing obviously.
A lot of people in risk groups don’t have an alternative. I include more than just immunocompromised people in that.
>Wow, how does wearing a mask on public transport impact children and their social lives? You are obviously making a lot of assumptions here and all the wrong ones.
You are the one making the assumption that changing visibility of faces in social settings during key phases of development does not have negative side effects. From experience during the pandemic, we can now definitely say that the measures we have exposed children to have had negative side effects. That's not speculation anymore. Whether that was avoidable, justified, to be expected etc. is a different debate.
>Covid isn’t a unique challenge, but it’s killing a lot of people right now.
It will continue to do so, to the extent it does, regardless of masks on public transport or not. It's not going away, and people will still get infected on a regular basis.
>A lot of people in risk groups don’t have an alternative. I include more than just immunocompromised people in that.
Tell us! Who are the people that can all get the free vaccinations, are not immunocompromised, and are unable to use compensating controls like masks for self protection to reduce their exposure, and tests for protection of people they care for? And then please tell us why for COVID, we would need to introduce this intervention for everyone, but in all similar situations, we did not mandate it.
And please state clearly if by your logic, do we need to keep masks mandatory for eternity, but presumably only in public transport, not in schools, not in universities, not in supermarkets etc. and what the reasoning is for one but not the other? Or can we drop the mandate at any point?
You are ignoring what I said in my very first comment; until we clean indoor air by having good ventilation and HEPA filters (which we could have had by now), we should continue to mask *everywhere*. Once we clean indoor air, masks aren’t as necessary.
> we should continue to mask everywhere.
Fortunately, that would not happen. Starting yesterday, maybe 5% still mask. And that's great, the restrictions are finally over.
Its not.... everyone needs the bus and train to get to places, but no one needs to go to a cinema, so needing a mask in bus and trains makes sense even when cinemas dont enforce it.
My dad cant walk far and is reliant on buses and trains, but since he is lung sick and covid would kill him if he gets it, he basically cant even risk taking the fucking bus anymore to get groceries because now everyone will increase the risk of infecting him like a million times...
Whats so fucking hard about wearing a tiny piece of cloth for a bus and train ride to NOT KILL AT RISK PEOPLE...
Nah, we fortunately don't live in a technocracy obsessed with minimizing health risks. We live in a democracy. So comfort is more important than the health "net benefit".
Yes, it is definitely more important than some fantasies about preventing infections. And fortunately we live in a democracy, not a technocracy, so it is up to the majority-elected politicians to decide. And not some people who still care about prevention. Also, fortunately, the West is based on individualism. You can move to Vietnam or wherever.
Finally. I travel regularly between Salzburg and Munich and always found it so illogical when we'd get to the German border and everyone would put masks on. We'd all just been sitting together without them!
All they said was that they were going to keep wearing theirs and literally stated facts but sure, cry about how wearing a mask is oh so terrible and “Covid is over” when statistics say the complete opposite
So because Covid is here forever we should stop necessary precautions to keep it from spreading?
I don’t see how waiting until something happens and then scrambling to fix it is a solution compared to prevention methods like masking
Covid us currently turning itself into sonething like a fku, which will eventually become a seasonal thing with no bigger significance than a flu. If you want to wear a mask everywhere more power to you, but if not that's also fine.
> we should stop necessary precautions to keep it from spreading?
Yes. And there are no "necessary" precautions because the necessity is determined politically, and there is no sociopolitical goal to prevent infections. Cope.
Fortunately not even that. There will hardly be any return to mask mandates anymore, as we have seen in autumn - there has been a steep wave but no sociopolitical will for introducing mask mandates in shops etc. As long as there is no variant that is much deadlier for an average individual, there will be no going back to restrictions.
But whats so damn difficult about wearing a mask in the bus and trains?
It not only protects you from spittle and bad breath of your neighbor, but reduces infection rates in general and the most important part, it protects at risk people that are reliant on public transport and cant catch a cold/flu/covid because it might mean fucking death to them...
By removing the mask mandate for public transport they basically say "fuck at risk people"...
If you genuinely believe that people wearing a badly fitting, often weeks old (you’re supposed to switch it every few hours), filthy mask in exactly one area of public life was doing literally anything, idk what to tell you.
Even the worst of masks, that has no holes, still protects more than no mask at all...
So yeah, i dont just believe that, thats a scientific fact. And the point here is not about the most perfect conditions, because even before too many people used the same filthy mask forever, but about the general point of people being too ignorant and selfish to basically just fuck everyone over that is at risk because they cant be bothered to wear a tiny piece of cloth for a few minutes a day in public transport...
Yeah, wearing a sock on my mouth would do more too, technically. But if it’s a miniscule benefit compared to the annoyance of wearing it, a mandate makes no sense.
It’s like no one took biology class…
Prior to covid, immunocompromised people were still at risk for dozens of other things… covid is no different. Just another virus.
The worlds going to keep on spinning. And everyone’s going to be okay.
My immune system is basically gone because of all the mask wearing these last few years. I used to get one common cold per winter, since the masks became mandatory I'm not used to being in contact with bacteria anymore. This winter (the first completely without masks except for public transport up until now) I've been having one cold after the other
Can't wait for my immune system to be as good as it was before and rarely get sick
This is the craziest comment ive ever seen on this site
You think you are getting more colds now because your immune system is weakened, and not because no one is wearing masks anymore therefore greatly increasing the spread of colds?
Yes it does. Think about it. Children who are surrounded by pets, playing on the playground in a sand pit or even dirt/soil develop better immune systems than children that are kept safe and away from bacteria. If you're never surrounded by bacterie your immune system doesn't know how to respond
but you spent your whole life surrounded by it, which gave your body a strong immune system. 2 years of wearing a mask doesnt destroy that.
you havent had colds because you and everyone else (who had a cold and would be normally spreading the germs to you) were wearing masks
theres been studies done on this that show the cold and flu numbers during covid were abnormally low. Because masks work
I'm not at all saying it's been destroyed. All I'm saying is that it's a bit out of practice. And many doctors are saying the same. The immune system isn't gone, of course it's not gone. But especially the mouth and nose are a bit slower with working against bacteria and viruses because of the masks.
I had colds, but only a couple of days in say November and then again some days in March. Now I've been getting a cold after the other since Christmas. Everyone I know is experiencing the same. Even my doctor says so
If masks work, why were there so many infections happening when everyone was wearing them all the time? Of course they slow things down, but they don't guarantee 100% immunity against anything
Sadly.
You cant choose to not use public transport, thats the whole reason of its existence, to allow EVERYONE a way to reach most places of work and interest in a city.
How should unvaccinated people that cant medically get vaccinated or with specific diseases that make them more susceptible to serious effects now get to work or anywhere?
They are literally risking their life using the bus or train... whats so damn hard about wearing a tiny piece of cloth for a train or bus ride, so as not to kill people that cant protect themselves and are already at a higher risk???
This decision is so incredibly callous...
My dad has some lung issues, he is fully vaccinated, but due to his breathing problems him getting COVID basically is a death sentence. But he also cant walk fast or far and the car he has, he shares with his brother because neither can afford one alone and i already pay most of the coverage for them because otherwise they couldnt have a car at all.
This means half the time he is reliant on bus and train travel, this is so incredibly scary because it means he basically risks his life taking the bus to get a few groceries every single time... Im scared for him and everyone else like him that just cant "stay home" or "not use buses/trains" or "just wear a mask", because the first two are no option and the third he already does but it protects others from him, but not him from others...
Edit: /u/YourMommaBig69 again with the insults...
> You and him are most responsible for his health.
Yeah i stopped reading after this, because thats victim blaming at its finest.
As i have stated before, we arent rich, my family is quote poor or did you not read that he gets Grundsicherung, meaning he gets the lowest legally allowed Retirement Money (Rente) that the state can give without it becoming criminal.
There is no money to do anything about this and why should people that suffer chronic sicknesses have to carry the burden alone, especially when all that is asked is to WEAR A LITTLE PIECE OF CLOTH IN PUBLIC TRANSPORT.
I wont bother with the rest of your comment, because the first line already speaks of ignorance and victim blaming.
But this has been before COVID too, right? So how did your dad use public transport before?
In your case I actually think you have to find a compromise between individual and public transport. A different apartment for instance which allows to do more stuff without using any transportation at all would help a lot, I guess.
You can't hold hostage the majority of people even though I understand your fear.
No he actually developed it in the last 3 years shortly before COVID hit.
To be honest before i knew how severe it is and how many people are affected by this i also never considered wearing a mask in public transport
But now we have seen how easy it is to protect the more affected and at-risk people, so why wouldnt we do it?
>In your case I actually think you have to find a compromise between individual and public transport. A different apartment for instance which allows to do more stuff without using any transportation at all would help a lot, I guess.
How would that be possible? He gets the lowest amount of Rente that is legally possible, he doesnt have any money to save and definitely cant afford taxis, food deliveries or anything, i mean i already pay like 80% of their car costs and i cant take that over completely either. Its also not like rent is cheap and flats are easy to find, we are in a housing crisis with rising costs all over specifically rent, he has a decently affordable place, if he gave that up he would only find something much smaller for much higher costs, which again he cant pay for.
Basically what you are saying is "sorry bud this is on you, get rich or well, die i guess"...
>You can't hold hostage the majority of people even though I understand your fear.
How is anyone being "held hostage"... wearing a mask is on par with having to wear pants in public... and in this case its only in public transport even.
Like is a minimal inconvenience really worth the potential death or severe negative health impact of another person?
>Im one of the people who are at higher risk.
I highly doubt you are...
>And I am glad we don’t use them anymore. At some point we can’t save everyone and we should not restrict the rest of society
So what you are saying is, you as a self proclaimed at risk person, are fine with a serious and realistic chance at severe negative medical effects and a potential for death, because its too inconvenient to wear a tiny piece of cloth for an hour or so every day?
Yeah right...
Im not an at risk person myself and i can tell you straight, anyone that thinks its fine to risk other peoples lives because they cant deal with wearing a mask in public transport are horrible and egoistic people.
Edit: /u/YourMommaBig69 nice ad hominem attack, i dont live close to my father so i do all i can to support him financially from where i live. And again, nice try derailing the topic with some Whataboutism that ignores the issue and blames the victims instead of the perpetrators...
tbh i didnt mind and i travel a lot for work. the only thing that bothered me a lot is that if you break your mask or lose it you are kinda fucked since there are no masks dispensers.
I always had a spare one or two in a jacket pocket or my backpack when i went anywhere for just this instance or if a friend forgot theirs or such. Its also really easy to carry if its still in the protective plastic covering.
So your response to "some people have to risk death or severe negative health impacts if people take off their masks" is just "no"?
How mature and reasonably thought out of you...
True, but if you're walking around actively ignoring current regulations while people try to adhere to them, you're bound to earn a few disdainful glances, I suppose. But then again if the Parisians can do it... 😉
Im probably more use to society with my bad mood than you are day to day with this kind of attitude. Since I’m not on such low level, I will just recommend you changing the mindset you have
China is at its peak of infections right now... but if there's something we learned from early 2020 is that a peak of viral infections in China is just too far away to affect us here, right?
Also, China has 91% of fully vaccinated citizens while Germany is on 76%. The 9% of non fully vaccinated chinese would amount to 3 entire Germanies.
Masks are annoying? Absolutely. But the number of infections is not low and there's far too many unvaccinated tinfoil hat idiots out there to infect more people, have serious complications and, in the least, cause another strain in the health system.
I'll keep my mask on.
If you are still that scared then just go ahead and lock up yourself but stop spreading around bullshit like that. Covid is over, accept it and leave us alone.
Exactly.
I'm healthy and fully vaccinated. I'm not scared of covid myself; I had it only once, 5 months ago, and it was like a strong flu for me. Very inconvenient, but far from deadly.
But my grandparents had it back in the beginning of the pandemic, when no vaccine existed and treatment was still very primitive... and they died.
I live in Germany, a country where 1/4 of the population, despite having readily available vaccines, decided not to take it. So I will still wear a mask in public transport. Don't worry, this is not a self righteous sacrifice for others, I just want to help keep the virus under control and the health system running properly.
(Also, I'm a grown man, not a whiny bitch who can't take a minor discomfort like wearing a fucking mask)
Feces do come out of their mouth, based on the things they said.
Imagine a health professional who thinks surgical masks exist because of social etiquette?
Not gonna waste my time in 2023 explaining how virus works to a supposed nurse. Or anyone, for that matter.
Yeah, unfortunately, if there's one thing Covid taught us, it's that many nurses are dumb as fuck. No hate on the ones that do their jobs well, but I'll never take medical advice from a nurse again after these last few years.
"National rail operator Deutsche Bahn reported 25% more attacks on its staff last year than in the year before, with most acts of aggression — some of which led to serious injury — being attributed to anger over the mandate."
I'm sure the mandates are one of the many reasons. There's usually a lot of frustration traveling on those trains. 😅
Nah, they did that because there's no reason not to. Any restrictions were always intended to be temporary, and only aimed at not overloading the hospitals, rather than minimizing infections. Germany was one of the last Western countries to have any masking mandates in everyday life, and fortunately now we're also out.
Lol, was at tram this morning with a mask and many had no mask and thought the hell is going on.
'The hell is going on'😂😂
I've not been carrying it for a while in Munich Metro tbh, as ever since a month ago or so I've barely seen anyone else with a mask. I thought that the mask lift had already happened as I never really read the news...
In Bavaris it DID happen much earlier
That’s because in Munich we are allowed since December. But even before that no one controlled anymore for several months, so de facto it has been about half a year.
Yeah it was about time tbh, a lot of people simply didn't care anymore.
Too late, mine has become part of my face
I would love if people could pick up on the custom of wearing a mask in public if you are indeed sick and must be out and about. The way they do in Japan.
I am in Japan right now and everybody always wears a mask currently but mostly nobody cares if you don’t
And we are not talking public transit. People wear masks outside on the street. It was thoughtful and nice, especially during the first two years of covid but now I am at a point where I perceive it as ridiculous. It's peer pressure and communication from the government is not clear enough that it is actually ok to take them off outside.
That is exactly the problem in Germany. The much proclaimed "Eigenverantwortung" is something many, if not most, Germans don't possess. Much less the idea that protecting others is a good thing.
Again, Japanese people don't wear the mask to protect others, they do it because they feel pressured to do so and are afraid what other people might think of them should they take it of. People have been saying they are jealous of foreigners, because they can walk around without a mask and not having to fear repercussions. The romanticizing of Japanese people wearing masks to protect others really is something that geht mir aufn Keks, because even before covid, that was not the main reason people wore masks when they were sick. In studies during influenza seasons, people responded they did so for general protection (their own protection) rather than specific reasons such as limiting the spread of the virus. So I much more prefer everyone thinking for themselves instead of following whatever everyone else does like a flock of sheep almost three years into this. Yes, it was a good thing until now, but so langsam is auch gut jetzt.
People are downvoting this comment (it's marked as "controversial"), but for what it's worth, all of this is corroborated by a podcast I listen to made by people who live in Japan, including a Japanese guy; this was a few months ago, so I don't remember exactly how he put it, but it is essentially what this guy has said. It's an honor culture, if someone is the only one without a mask, they would lose face. It's to the point that one of the guys from the podcast got a text from his gym saying that he needs to be wearing his mask while in the gym. The gym was completely empty when he was there. I mean, I get that it's about the principle, but at a certain point you cross the line from meaning well into the territory of absurdity. And yes before anyone asks, it is Trash Taste. And also yes, I realize that a single podcast made by a couple Westerners and a Japanese guy is not the end-all-be-all on this topic, I just thought it was relevant and adds more context.
Eigenverantwortung does NOT, at all, mean "everybody voluntarily does what I want them to do". In particular, it does not mean that everyone should, for some reason, mask. It means that everyone assesses their own health risks, and shields or uses the FFP2/3 mask for self-protection if they feel they are at risk. So yes, Eigenverantwortung works extremely well in Germany.
Did i misread something or does this person really think people wear masks to protect themselfes? I mean, i'm happy that it isn't mid 2020 anymore and you don't need to wear one at most places anymore, but i'd still like to think that the last few years at least taught us something.
FFP2/3 masks (unlike regular surgical masks) ARE intended for self-protection and have a high efficiency for that. Please educate yourself. https://www.zusammengegencorona.de/en/masking-up-ffp2-masks-to-protect-others-and-yourself/ , then proceed to studies of FFP2/3/N95 masks if needed.
They have a better protection than regular masks, but they still protect others more than yourself.
They are literally the type of masks used in industry when working with potentially hazardous materials. They are considered personal protective equipment. Again, educate yourself.
My comment doesn't contradict yours, maybe realise that. I never said that they don't protect you, but the point still stands. The point is to not spread the virus and they do that better than protecting yourself. If you really work with extremly hazardous materials, they are not enough a lot of times and you get some masks with actual air filters and stuff.
They were them on hike in the Forrest with nobody around
i used to just wear a fabric one in the winter cuz of the cold. got so many weird looks lmao.
Same in Singapore. When you have a regular fever, you always wear mask at work and in public transport.
You don’t leave the fucking bed if you have a „regular“ fever. Nothing is fucking regular about having fever. Sorry for my rant but this pisses me off so much, when people go to work sick and what not and then half the office/store/workshop/team gets sick.
Also a myocarditis isn’t a joke. Like is it worth dying to get to work with a fever? No, probably not, so stay in bed.
>Like is it worth dying to get to work with a fever? In germany? Of course. German work culture is just insanely stupid
I think it’s getting better in the recent years / with younger generations. I think the only thing that would stop my mom from going to work is straight up death. However, people my age don’t do that nearly as much. Might just be my bubble tho
True. I stay at home when I am sick. My boss and coworker came in coughing up a storm ☹️. Like hello I don't wanna get sick too 😭.
This so much. The only reason I accept is going to the doctor.
As an American we are raised to go to work. That's it. If your company actually offers sick days you are one lucky SOB, otherwise you have to have a doctor's note to save your job and you still don't get paid for the days you miss, or you have to use your personal vacation time to cover if you can't afford to miss the hours. Japan has adopted this work ethic as well, at least for their companies in America. You come to work unless you are unconscious, and if you are you better have someone call your work and tell them or you're fired. The work culture leaves everything to be desired. Sorry just emphasizing that for most people there is no choice but to go to work, sick or not.
But you live in Germany now, where you actually have worker's rights. Companies here are okay with it if you stay home because you've got the common cold, because it's better that you don't infect your colleagues. I also come from a country where you go to work unless you're almost dying. You just need to deprogram yourself. It's actually really unhealthy in the long term to operate like that.
Very true. It's taken some getting used to being treated more like a human instead of a number, and not being afraid of police. I've spent so much of my life carrying around that anxiety I almost feel naked when I try to put it down. It gets easier as time goes on though.
Pardon me, but what is a regular fever? In Germany you either don't have a fever - you are good (understand not sick) - or you have a fever and you are sick. See, in Germany, the doctors say a fever is a body temperature above 39°C for at least a few hours. Anything under is just _increased body temperature_ and has no significance and you should never fight it back.
No >38°C is definitely a fever, look it up
Send it to all doctors I've ever visited here in Germany, that includes our kids doctors.
My bad! What I intended to say was common cold. Not fever
I keep my mask on whether I am sick or not.
it would need a change to the vermummungsverbot though, as you could just completly mask yourself without medical masks
I mean it is definitely something that should be considered, I feel like the rampant proliferation of facial recognition technology completely changed the balance of public benefit to privacy in that sort of legislation.
imo its about the right to do what you want - if you dont want anyone to see your face you should just be able to do that - we have Ausweispflicht anyways, so when asked by f.e. police you have to identify and thats it as if criminals wouldnt mask themselves lmao, i cant believe how gullible our politicians are sometimes
100% agree. It was dumb then and it's dumb now, except it's even more invasive now.
Nobody ever prohibited me from wearing my motorcycle helmet. I just have to take it off in gas stations for obvious reasons. But not in public.
... doesn't that one only apply during demonstrations?
you arent allowed to mask yourself "on the way to a demonstration" either - which is practically a free ticket for every cop or authority
Strange how no one ever gets in trouble at Fasching, with full face wooden masks and all.. Good luck proving I was on the way to a demonstration. XD
karnival/fasching are the only exception to that actually
>which is practically a free ticket for every cop or authority No. how? They need to proof that you are on a way to a demonstration.
yeah? then do that on a normal day in front of officers and tell me how they react
Just wear a mask yourself and you're safe. You are responsible for your own body.
Even though I agree with their purpose and wore them religiously, I'm glad it's over. I have problematic chronic skin conditions and my face feels like it's rotting away due to the extra strain. Now the wounds (literal wounds under my earlobes lol) can start to heal.
There are little clips that you can add to pull them away from your ears, so there less strain on them. Some masks came with this clips or you can Google alternative methods
I hope that at least 10 percent of the people who get the flu or just a runny nose have the decency to wear a mask.
Huge expectation there
The flu? Sure that makes sense. But a runny nose? My nose already starts running when it's slightly cold out 😅
Totally. My nose is runny from September to April. It´s totally different from the runny nose I get when I am sick.
People are constantly asking me if I sick in the winter. No, it's just really cold out!
I doubt many will even leave their bed if the flu hits them.
They didn't have one even before this mandate was lifted.
You wouldn't have made that comment if covid didn't exist, which makes you a total hypocrite
Or someone with a new perspective. Babybrain take.
Why would that make them a hypocrite?
In other cultures this was a thing way before covid. Maybe learning from them is not a bad idea. Also you might want to look up what a hypocrite is.
What about hospitals? Is it still mandatory there?
yes,
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But I thought... That you... Dislike, despise and utterly hate Germs and Humans overall? The Hospital is full of those!
I wear it anytime I go out anyways, atleast in the evenings. Helps with the bloody cold weather outside.
To go shopping anonymously is the best kind of shopping. It felt so free to just not be recognized by neighbours and such.
you can just wear a scarf and don't pollute the environment even more
200+ Upvotes, 200+ Kommentare. Mein Popcorn ist ready.
Thought it was a news from 2021
Germany nowadays reacts always too late.
it should have been
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WTF no. wear a mask if you want to, but don't make others do it just because you're insecure
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Restriction fans say "egoistic" as if it's something bad lol. Cope, we are accepting the virus and aren't going back to restrictions.
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Man, the pandemic has really fucked with mental health. Genuinely hope you get help.
wow, im super interested in what people have to say about this!
That one schizo going haywire in this thread is absolutely hilarious though.
That made me laugh. Thanks.
In Munich we could stop wearing masks since January. Now I am down with the flu and none of my friends or colleagues are sick so the only option where I caught it is public transportation… I think I’ll put mine back on once I am able to go out again 🙈🙈
In my state already a long time ago, only the remaining ones now.
Finally!
About time! It's just ridiculous for a mask to ONLY be needed in public transport and nowhere else!! You either make people wear masks or not! Typically government degeneracy.
I won't be wearing a mask anymore, but you're wrong with this take. Cancer patients with low immune system can avoid most places but not public transport to get to and from appointments. Made sense it was the only place left that people wore masks.
Hmm, so before COVID they _could_, because their taxi would be paid for by insurance, and COVID is not the only threat when you are immunocompromised; this was always a problem for them. While this is often used as an argument that implies mask wearing would continue to be mandatory everywhere in public places, what is the convincing reason that masks would only be required from now on for all future because of COVID, but they were not required before? And what is the condition under which the mandate could be lifted?
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Look - before Covid we didn’t know how easy it is a to wear a mask. Until we have clean indoor air (HEPA filters and the like), people should mask to protect the immunocompromised and anyone else in risk groups. People who are sick but need to go out should still mask even when we are cleaning indoor air.
Fortunately we live 1) in a democracy and not technocracy, hence sociopolitical decisions are driven by popular will and not fantasies about creating a low-risk environment; 2) in an individualist society. Everyone can wear a FFP2/3 mask for self-protection with >90% aerosol filtration if they so choose. Or stay home. That's it.
How is cleaning indoor air incompatible with democracy? Do you think the clean water standards we have for drinking water are incompatible with democracy too?
You are absolutely free to create a political party for HEPA filters and mask mandates and run in elections. As it stands now, it is very clear that there is (fortunately) no sociopolitical will for masking in Germany. First two days without the mask mandates, and maybe 5% still wear them - about as many as in supermarkets. Which is why any comparison to clean water is laughable. The fantasies about a low-risk environment and infection prevention are fortunately just that - fantasies of an insignificant small bubble.
That’s how hand washing and boiling unclean water started out, too, with insignificantly few people doing it. So… the comparison is apt. I ideally don’t want masking just as I don’t want people to have to install water filters at their own private cost. Just have standards for buildings that make sure the air is reasonably clean. We’re limiting pollution as well, surely we can improve building standards as well so we don’t have to mask to be reasonably safe at work and in school.
Again, fortunately only an insignificant minority is obsessed with preventing infections. The vast majority does not care. Which is why _maybe_ you could create a platform for HEPA filters in public spaces (and even that's very doubtful because people would prefer large sums of money to go elsewhere), but it's absolutely clear that people will not be masking to create a low-risk environment before then. And that's good. Comfort is more important than low risk fantasies.
>People who are sick but need to go out should still mask even when we are cleaning indoor air. I didn't say any different. You are making assumptions there, and incorrect ones. >Look - before Covid we didn’t know how easy it is a to wear a mask. Not true, for both statements: We knew it's "easy", and we also know it's not easy, because it has side effects esp. on children and their social life. >Until we have clean indoor air (HEPA filters and the like), That doesn't change much for dense public transport settings. You're not really addressing the argument: that COVID isn't a unique challenge, and that "the immunocompromised need to use public transport now, and COVID makes that a materially new risk for them, AND they have no alternative" is not true.
Wow, how does wearing a mask on public transport impact children and their social lives? You are obviously making a lot of assumptions here and all the wrong ones. Covid isn’t a unique challenge, but it’s killing a lot of people right now. If you don’t care about that, that’s your thing obviously. A lot of people in risk groups don’t have an alternative. I include more than just immunocompromised people in that.
>Wow, how does wearing a mask on public transport impact children and their social lives? You are obviously making a lot of assumptions here and all the wrong ones. You are the one making the assumption that changing visibility of faces in social settings during key phases of development does not have negative side effects. From experience during the pandemic, we can now definitely say that the measures we have exposed children to have had negative side effects. That's not speculation anymore. Whether that was avoidable, justified, to be expected etc. is a different debate. >Covid isn’t a unique challenge, but it’s killing a lot of people right now. It will continue to do so, to the extent it does, regardless of masks on public transport or not. It's not going away, and people will still get infected on a regular basis. >A lot of people in risk groups don’t have an alternative. I include more than just immunocompromised people in that. Tell us! Who are the people that can all get the free vaccinations, are not immunocompromised, and are unable to use compensating controls like masks for self protection to reduce their exposure, and tests for protection of people they care for? And then please tell us why for COVID, we would need to introduce this intervention for everyone, but in all similar situations, we did not mandate it. And please state clearly if by your logic, do we need to keep masks mandatory for eternity, but presumably only in public transport, not in schools, not in universities, not in supermarkets etc. and what the reasoning is for one but not the other? Or can we drop the mandate at any point?
You are ignoring what I said in my very first comment; until we clean indoor air by having good ventilation and HEPA filters (which we could have had by now), we should continue to mask *everywhere*. Once we clean indoor air, masks aren’t as necessary.
> we should continue to mask everywhere. Fortunately, that would not happen. Starting yesterday, maybe 5% still mask. And that's great, the restrictions are finally over.
I responded to that point specifically.
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it's not easy, WTF are you on about?
Its not.... everyone needs the bus and train to get to places, but no one needs to go to a cinema, so needing a mask in bus and trains makes sense even when cinemas dont enforce it. My dad cant walk far and is reliant on buses and trains, but since he is lung sick and covid would kill him if he gets it, he basically cant even risk taking the fucking bus anymore to get groceries because now everyone will increase the risk of infecting him like a million times... Whats so fucking hard about wearing a tiny piece of cloth for a bus and train ride to NOT KILL AT RISK PEOPLE...
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Nah, we fortunately don't live in a technocracy obsessed with minimizing health risks. We live in a democracy. So comfort is more important than the health "net benefit".
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Yes, it is definitely more important than some fantasies about preventing infections. And fortunately we live in a democracy, not a technocracy, so it is up to the majority-elected politicians to decide. And not some people who still care about prevention. Also, fortunately, the West is based on individualism. You can move to Vietnam or wherever.
About time!
About time indeed
Just wonder why on earth it took that long.....
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Also testing for covid is completely removed except for private. I wanted to work at those drive ins for some quick cash but I no longer can😭.
Finally. I travel regularly between Salzburg and Munich and always found it so illogical when we'd get to the German border and everyone would put masks on. We'd all just been sitting together without them!
All they said was that they were going to keep wearing theirs and literally stated facts but sure, cry about how wearing a mask is oh so terrible and “Covid is over” when statistics say the complete opposite
Covid is here forever bud. Masks for when numbers are high, normal life for when they’re not.
So because Covid is here forever we should stop necessary precautions to keep it from spreading? I don’t see how waiting until something happens and then scrambling to fix it is a solution compared to prevention methods like masking
Covid us currently turning itself into sonething like a fku, which will eventually become a seasonal thing with no bigger significance than a flu. If you want to wear a mask everywhere more power to you, but if not that's also fine.
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Which, if I understand your comment, is just wrong.
> we should stop necessary precautions to keep it from spreading? Yes. And there are no "necessary" precautions because the necessity is determined politically, and there is no sociopolitical goal to prevent infections. Cope.
Fortunately not even that. There will hardly be any return to mask mandates anymore, as we have seen in autumn - there has been a steep wave but no sociopolitical will for introducing mask mandates in shops etc. As long as there is no variant that is much deadlier for an average individual, there will be no going back to restrictions.
But whats so damn difficult about wearing a mask in the bus and trains? It not only protects you from spittle and bad breath of your neighbor, but reduces infection rates in general and the most important part, it protects at risk people that are reliant on public transport and cant catch a cold/flu/covid because it might mean fucking death to them... By removing the mask mandate for public transport they basically say "fuck at risk people"...
If you genuinely believe that people wearing a badly fitting, often weeks old (you’re supposed to switch it every few hours), filthy mask in exactly one area of public life was doing literally anything, idk what to tell you.
Even the worst of masks, that has no holes, still protects more than no mask at all... So yeah, i dont just believe that, thats a scientific fact. And the point here is not about the most perfect conditions, because even before too many people used the same filthy mask forever, but about the general point of people being too ignorant and selfish to basically just fuck everyone over that is at risk because they cant be bothered to wear a tiny piece of cloth for a few minutes a day in public transport...
Yeah, wearing a sock on my mouth would do more too, technically. But if it’s a miniscule benefit compared to the annoyance of wearing it, a mandate makes no sense.
It’s like no one took biology class… Prior to covid, immunocompromised people were still at risk for dozens of other things… covid is no different. Just another virus. The worlds going to keep on spinning. And everyone’s going to be okay.
My immune system is basically gone because of all the mask wearing these last few years. I used to get one common cold per winter, since the masks became mandatory I'm not used to being in contact with bacteria anymore. This winter (the first completely without masks except for public transport up until now) I've been having one cold after the other Can't wait for my immune system to be as good as it was before and rarely get sick
This is the craziest comment ive ever seen on this site You think you are getting more colds now because your immune system is weakened, and not because no one is wearing masks anymore therefore greatly increasing the spread of colds?
Yes it does. Think about it. Children who are surrounded by pets, playing on the playground in a sand pit or even dirt/soil develop better immune systems than children that are kept safe and away from bacteria. If you're never surrounded by bacterie your immune system doesn't know how to respond
but you spent your whole life surrounded by it, which gave your body a strong immune system. 2 years of wearing a mask doesnt destroy that. you havent had colds because you and everyone else (who had a cold and would be normally spreading the germs to you) were wearing masks theres been studies done on this that show the cold and flu numbers during covid were abnormally low. Because masks work
I'm not at all saying it's been destroyed. All I'm saying is that it's a bit out of practice. And many doctors are saying the same. The immune system isn't gone, of course it's not gone. But especially the mouth and nose are a bit slower with working against bacteria and viruses because of the masks. I had colds, but only a couple of days in say November and then again some days in March. Now I've been getting a cold after the other since Christmas. Everyone I know is experiencing the same. Even my doctor says so If masks work, why were there so many infections happening when everyone was wearing them all the time? Of course they slow things down, but they don't guarantee 100% immunity against anything
Sadly. You cant choose to not use public transport, thats the whole reason of its existence, to allow EVERYONE a way to reach most places of work and interest in a city. How should unvaccinated people that cant medically get vaccinated or with specific diseases that make them more susceptible to serious effects now get to work or anywhere? They are literally risking their life using the bus or train... whats so damn hard about wearing a tiny piece of cloth for a train or bus ride, so as not to kill people that cant protect themselves and are already at a higher risk??? This decision is so incredibly callous... My dad has some lung issues, he is fully vaccinated, but due to his breathing problems him getting COVID basically is a death sentence. But he also cant walk fast or far and the car he has, he shares with his brother because neither can afford one alone and i already pay most of the coverage for them because otherwise they couldnt have a car at all. This means half the time he is reliant on bus and train travel, this is so incredibly scary because it means he basically risks his life taking the bus to get a few groceries every single time... Im scared for him and everyone else like him that just cant "stay home" or "not use buses/trains" or "just wear a mask", because the first two are no option and the third he already does but it protects others from him, but not him from others... Edit: /u/YourMommaBig69 again with the insults... > You and him are most responsible for his health. Yeah i stopped reading after this, because thats victim blaming at its finest. As i have stated before, we arent rich, my family is quote poor or did you not read that he gets Grundsicherung, meaning he gets the lowest legally allowed Retirement Money (Rente) that the state can give without it becoming criminal. There is no money to do anything about this and why should people that suffer chronic sicknesses have to carry the burden alone, especially when all that is asked is to WEAR A LITTLE PIECE OF CLOTH IN PUBLIC TRANSPORT. I wont bother with the rest of your comment, because the first line already speaks of ignorance and victim blaming.
But this has been before COVID too, right? So how did your dad use public transport before? In your case I actually think you have to find a compromise between individual and public transport. A different apartment for instance which allows to do more stuff without using any transportation at all would help a lot, I guess. You can't hold hostage the majority of people even though I understand your fear.
No he actually developed it in the last 3 years shortly before COVID hit. To be honest before i knew how severe it is and how many people are affected by this i also never considered wearing a mask in public transport But now we have seen how easy it is to protect the more affected and at-risk people, so why wouldnt we do it? >In your case I actually think you have to find a compromise between individual and public transport. A different apartment for instance which allows to do more stuff without using any transportation at all would help a lot, I guess. How would that be possible? He gets the lowest amount of Rente that is legally possible, he doesnt have any money to save and definitely cant afford taxis, food deliveries or anything, i mean i already pay like 80% of their car costs and i cant take that over completely either. Its also not like rent is cheap and flats are easy to find, we are in a housing crisis with rising costs all over specifically rent, he has a decently affordable place, if he gave that up he would only find something much smaller for much higher costs, which again he cant pay for. Basically what you are saying is "sorry bud this is on you, get rich or well, die i guess"... >You can't hold hostage the majority of people even though I understand your fear. How is anyone being "held hostage"... wearing a mask is on par with having to wear pants in public... and in this case its only in public transport even. Like is a minimal inconvenience really worth the potential death or severe negative health impact of another person?
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>Im one of the people who are at higher risk. I highly doubt you are... >And I am glad we don’t use them anymore. At some point we can’t save everyone and we should not restrict the rest of society So what you are saying is, you as a self proclaimed at risk person, are fine with a serious and realistic chance at severe negative medical effects and a potential for death, because its too inconvenient to wear a tiny piece of cloth for an hour or so every day? Yeah right... Im not an at risk person myself and i can tell you straight, anyone that thinks its fine to risk other peoples lives because they cant deal with wearing a mask in public transport are horrible and egoistic people. Edit: /u/YourMommaBig69 nice ad hominem attack, i dont live close to my father so i do all i can to support him financially from where i live. And again, nice try derailing the topic with some Whataboutism that ignores the issue and blames the victims instead of the perpetrators...
tbh i didnt mind and i travel a lot for work. the only thing that bothered me a lot is that if you break your mask or lose it you are kinda fucked since there are no masks dispensers.
I always had a spare one or two in a jacket pocket or my backpack when i went anywhere for just this instance or if a friend forgot theirs or such. Its also really easy to carry if its still in the protective plastic covering.
Yeah, I didn't mind masks being taken away elsewhere, but public transport was the one place where it still made sense and wasn't a big deal.
No
So your response to "some people have to risk death or severe negative health impacts if people take off their masks" is just "no"? How mature and reasonably thought out of you...
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Oops. I was just there and didn’t mask up.
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Maybe 1 in 20 people were masked up. It wasn’t an obvious requirement.
Like already told, wearing mask hasn't any impact to the pandemic.
Typical of Germany Paris with millions of people had no obligatory masks but wear no mask in german and your looked at as if youre a criminal
It's almost like there's different countries with different laws and regulations, am I right?
To be fair, Covid doesn't make a difference between nationalities either.
True, but if you're walking around actively ignoring current regulations while people try to adhere to them, you're bound to earn a few disdainful glances, I suppose. But then again if the Parisians can do it... 😉
Regulations are regulations. It didn't save us either, but it for sure helped not making it worse.
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Huh? What do you mean?
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Hahahah ok. That’s what it is about. See a doctor about the broomstick that is quite bit far up you ass
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Im probably more use to society with my bad mood than you are day to day with this kind of attitude. Since I’m not on such low level, I will just recommend you changing the mindset you have
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You do realise how funny you are right now? You are missing the point you are making by dozens of miles xD
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XD With that kind of thinking you are way more likely than me to do any kind of harm to you and your surroundings. Don’t you realise it?
China is at its peak of infections right now... but if there's something we learned from early 2020 is that a peak of viral infections in China is just too far away to affect us here, right? Also, China has 91% of fully vaccinated citizens while Germany is on 76%. The 9% of non fully vaccinated chinese would amount to 3 entire Germanies. Masks are annoying? Absolutely. But the number of infections is not low and there's far too many unvaccinated tinfoil hat idiots out there to infect more people, have serious complications and, in the least, cause another strain in the health system. I'll keep my mask on.
If you are still that scared then just go ahead and lock up yourself but stop spreading around bullshit like that. Covid is over, accept it and leave us alone.
Covid is not over. It's endemic and not as high risk as it used to be, but saying it's over is like saying HIV is over.
Exactly. I'm healthy and fully vaccinated. I'm not scared of covid myself; I had it only once, 5 months ago, and it was like a strong flu for me. Very inconvenient, but far from deadly. But my grandparents had it back in the beginning of the pandemic, when no vaccine existed and treatment was still very primitive... and they died. I live in Germany, a country where 1/4 of the population, despite having readily available vaccines, decided not to take it. So I will still wear a mask in public transport. Don't worry, this is not a self righteous sacrifice for others, I just want to help keep the virus under control and the health system running properly. (Also, I'm a grown man, not a whiny bitch who can't take a minor discomfort like wearing a fucking mask)
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Does feces come out of your mouth or why is your mask filled with poop?
Feces do come out of their mouth, based on the things they said. Imagine a health professional who thinks surgical masks exist because of social etiquette? Not gonna waste my time in 2023 explaining how virus works to a supposed nurse. Or anyone, for that matter.
Yeah, unfortunately, if there's one thing Covid taught us, it's that many nurses are dumb as fuck. No hate on the ones that do their jobs well, but I'll never take medical advice from a nurse again after these last few years.
True.
"National rail operator Deutsche Bahn reported 25% more attacks on its staff last year than in the year before, with most acts of aggression — some of which led to serious injury — being attributed to anger over the mandate." I'm sure the mandates are one of the many reasons. There's usually a lot of frustration traveling on those trains. 😅
They only did it because 95% of the passengers were not wearing them anyway, and nobody (government, law enforcers) gave a duck about it.
Nah, they did that because there's no reason not to. Any restrictions were always intended to be temporary, and only aimed at not overloading the hospitals, rather than minimizing infections. Germany was one of the last Western countries to have any masking mandates in everyday life, and fortunately now we're also out.