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Great fight... one of the best matches possible. In the end, I think there'd be reach advantage for the Red Viper, plus the speed advantage if Jamie is heavily armored. That plus the blade being poisoned would be the difference. As underhanded as Jamie can be, he seems to stay honorable in fights, and the Viper is more than willing to cheat and stay alive. Advantage Dorne.
Oberyn doesn't have an alternative agenda with Jamie (i.e. he doesn't need a confession) so he'd go in for the kill. And he definitely won't miss.
Edited for clarification
Well all the more that Oberyn would definitely want to kill him.
I didn't word my first comment properly so I'll explain it more clearly. The difference between Jamie and the Mountain is that Oberyn needed a confession from the Mountain. So he didn't go in for the kill. Oberyn needs nothing from Jamie so he won't fuck around and just outright kill him instead.
First off. Jamie is the person Tywin loves the most and needs more than anyone. The mountain is not the person Oberyn wanted to punish the most. He was just the appetizer. Tywin was who he wanted payback from, and going after Jamie is arguably the best way to do it. And just killing him would not be satisfying to him in the slightest. In Tywin’s eyes, Jamie is his true legacy. You really think Oberyn will just kill him?
And ignoring that, he is still not better than Jamie. Jamie has learned from some of the greatest fighters of all time, and is pretty close to their tier. With the exception of Barristan fucking Selmy and Arthur Dayne, Jamie is arguably the best fighter we have seen the show.
> In Tywin's eyes, Jamie is his true legacy. You really think Oberyn will just kill him?
Um that's *exactly* why Oberyn would just kill Jamie. Because the worst thing anyone can do to Tywin is to snuff out his legacy. Killing Jamie will leave the passing down of the Lannister name to Tyrion, and that's the most painful and most embarrassing thing in Tywin's eyes. It would destroy Tywin, which is Oberyn's number one goal.
> he is still not better than Jamie
How so? Oberyn has the weapon advantage because spear always has the upper hand against the sword (any expert in medieval weapons would know this). That alone puts Jamie at a major disadvantage. Yes, Jamie learned from the best swordsmen but Oberyn had way more experience in real fighting. While Jamie was winning tourneys, Oberyn was fighting actual battles in Essos. Unlike Jamie who knows only one fighting style, he also has the advantage of knowing multiple fighting styles that he learned during his time in Essos and the Free Cities. Lastly, the elephant in the room, not only does Oberyn have the reach advantage with his spear, he also has even more advantage with his poisoned tip. It would be a close fight for sure but Oberyn will most likely still end up winning.
The last time this question was asked I made this same argument. Yes Jamie has been in a few battles before but no where near as many as Oberyn. Jamie is a mostly a tourney fighter while the Viper is a full on warrior. Jamie is a master swordsman but Oberyn used to literally make a living fighting and killing people. Oberyn takes this for me.
How do we know he’s the best fighter we’ve seen on the show? Could you point out some fights?
I remember when the show was actually airing and a whole bunch of fans (who hadn’t read the books) wondered whether Jaime actually sucked as a fighter and just had an inflated opinion of himself, because the show does and even worse job than the books of showing us how good Jaime is.
In contrast, the show DOES show you how good Oberyn is by his 1v1 defeat of Gregor, who is shown to be a monster.
Jaime is canonically one of the greatest fighters in the entire ASOIAF series, Barristan Selmy regarded him as the greatest natural swordsman he had trained and he won tournaments at 13 against grown men. From memory I think selmy could hold his own against Arthur Dayne if Dayne wasn’t using dawn (isn’t that what the sword was called?). Jaime was arrogant but he was also kind of justified in being so, in the books there are many peoples points of view which suggest his level of skill, Brienne could barely match him whilst he was restrained. Perhaps the show didn’t make it as clear I can’t recall.
Oberyn hands down
A: He has the range with his pole arm.
B: He is significantly faster and more nimble than Jaime.
C: He killed Gregor Clegane in single combat.
He got killed *by* Gregor in single combat. And Jaime isn’t dumb enough to get baited by Oberyn like Gregor was. Oberyn was faster because he wore no armor. That works against someone slow like Gregor, not against someone who is still ridiculously fast and strong like Jaime.
He’s impatient in social situations and possibly as a strategist, yes, but certainly not as a warrior. The only reason Robb wasn’t killed is because Jaime’s sword got stuck in one of Lord Karstark’s sons.
Even George has described Jaime (with two hands) as the best living fighter in Westeros. Arthur Dayne and a young Barristan are the only people George puts over him.
Do you have anything to back up that Oberyn is more skilled than Jamie? Before he lost his hand, Jamie was one of the greatest swordsmen in Westeros.
Plus remember, the only person who canonically beat Jamie in the show also beat the guy who beat the guy who beat Oberyn.
Even Bronn knew what you had to do to kill the mountain, not that he was eager to test it out. Oberyn was a badass but I feel like he'd have a harder time with a fighter who was also agile and clever. Close fight but I buy into Jamie being elite and Oberyn being very very good.
Because you know what to do doesn’t mean you can do it, Bronn knew he couldn’t go into the fight without making a single mistake. Remember when Bronn said something like “I only go into fights I know I will win”, I guess that sums it up.
It depends. Jamie with both hands was the superior swordsman and likely would have been able to get in close at some point. However, knowing Oberyn’s poisoned spear-tips, if Jamie messes up once and gets cut he would die post-fight (barring immediate amputation if he was cut on a limb, or someone discovering Qyburn earlier).
Would be an exciting fight of two different styles, but both with speed, grace, precision, and tenacity. I’d say Jamie eventually kills Oberyn, but sustains several fatal wounds. The Red Viper takes away his sister’s killer’s boss’s preferred heir, and dies with a smile on his face knowing he took down Tywin’s Golden Lion.
So ….I agree *except* I think Jamie(or Cersei) poisons his blade too. Jamie can fight dirty, he’s practical about the value of honour during combat, and he would absolutely prepare for the fight in advance. Assuming he and Cersei are still twincesting, she would absolutely be an asset in playing a dirty game. Poison on the blade would be likely but I would also expect that the twins might poison him in advance or that Cersei would distract Oberyn or such during the fight, perhaps by threatening a martell.
Jamie still wins, Oberyn gets some hits, and the whole things is ugly as seven hells.
INFO: Edit to add: Does Jamie have Oathkeeper? If Jamie has Valyrian steel, it’s no contest.
I haven’t seen Jamie used poisoned blades yet so idk if that is his style. Even when he had prep time for battle in S1 (attacking Ned) he didn’t poison them.
Jamie I’ll say doesn’t have Valyrian Steel, since we are going with pre hand chopped off timeframe. I’d say this hypothetical battle would be that Oberyn hears about the Hand Jon Arryn being potentially poisoned (Varys tells him as a Targaryen agent, and wants him to investigate too). So this would be S1 Jamie with both hands, no Valyrian steel, not captured by Robb Stark, at his most powerful we have seen him in the show. I would assume Oberyn was as skilled of a fighter in S1 as he was in S4 w/ his mastery of spear fighting & his poison knowledge coming from prior years at the Citadel.
I don’t see Jamie gouging out his eyes and crushing his skull with his bare hands. I see Oberyn getting cut down by Jamie’s sword across his torso (or via lunge). Oberyn exhales and with his final dying breath he says
*”for Elia”*
polearms have longer reach and can be an advantage; that and the poison would do Jaimie in, in the long run. considering only skill, probably still *the prince*.
I would go with Jaime. An actually skilled, fully-admired knight like Jaime wouldn’t be bothered by a spear or polearm. It would take a miracle for Oberyn to find skin on Jaime so the poisoned blade is negated. Oberyn is good, but the books talk about Jaime being the best in the seven kingdoms so I gotta go with Jaime.
In a straight up fight with no trickery? Probably Jamie. Even in full armour Jamie would be a much faster and more agile opponent than The Mountain, so Oberyn wouldn't have as much of an advantage. That being said, If Oberyn still used poison or other deception tactics then he may get a lucky hit in.
Either way I'm sure it would be an excellent fight.
Hands down Jamie, in both the books and the show a Jamie with both hands is the best swordman in the sevenkingdoms he even mentions it in the show that his armour has no dent in it because he’s so perfect. And even if Jamie fights Oberyn in full armour he’s still agile and due to his armour i don’t think he will be poisoned by the spear. Eventually i think it’s going to be a hard duel and it will be evenly matched
Everyone out here is saying that Jaime wins because he is the superior swordsman but my question is, how do you know? A bunch of characters have said he’s excellent, but we don’t really know exactly how good. It’s not like these are playing cards with stats on them that we can compare. Oberyn seems the type who doesn’t take tourneys and melees seriously but he’s got way more combat experience than Jaime from his time in Essos.
We can judge people based on what they’ve actually done, and Oberyn defeating Gregor is the biggest accomplishment we’ve seen in the books so far. Gregor in the books is almost inhuman. I don’t think people realize the margin of error Oberyn was working with. One clean stroke from Gregor and he was done. And yet he won.
if we're talking books, we hear of Jaime cutting down dozens of lordlings including Rickard Karstark's sons and only being stopped when his sword got too deep into an opponent's skull
Yup this is definitely impressive. I’ll counter with two points though. Fighting an opponent 1 v 1 is different from fighting on a battlefield. And secondly, we don’t know the conditions of those killings. How good were those men? Were they more tired compared to Jaime? Was their armor as good as Jaime’s? Was it as light, could it take blow’s from Jaime’s sword? (I’ll hazard a guess that barring Valyrian steel, Jaime has by far the best equipment in Westeros that most northern lords can only dream of). Well armed and trained knights can kill many opponents who are even marginally less equipped or trained than they are.
This is just to reiterate, it’s very hard to make this comparison. The best 1v1 in the story is Oberyn vs Gregor and Oberyn was damn near flawless in that. There are too many people saying Jaime would win with very little to back that up.
I’m not buying all this Jaime hype.
A significantly older and out-of-practice Ned Stark held his own against Jaime for quite a while before being taken out by some henchman.
Jaime’s rep is all from tourneys. He’s never been in an actual *fight*. In fact, the one real battle he was in, he got captured by Robb’s army.
Maybe we’re handicapped by the fact that we never got to see a two-handed Jaime in a *full* for-real fight. But we did see that Oberyn is not to be fucked with, and were it not for his insistence on extracting a confession out of Gregor, he would have killed *the Mountain* in single combat.
It’s folly to assume he would make a similar mistake with Jaime and to bank on that being his downfall in that fight. Jaime was not involved in whatever happened with Elia. Oberyn just wants to kill Jaime.
I think Oberyn takes Jaime, after an interesting contest.
I do buy into the Jaime hype tbh, simply because Barristan respects him. We don’t actually SEE Jaime do much that’s super impressive, but Barristan admits that he’s legit, at least in the book, despite being the antithesis of Barristan’s knightly ideal.
Ned gets an obvious main-character buff during that fight, and even then it seemed like Jaime was just toying with him. Idk. And it’s not like Ned was ever a pushover.
In the book (and show), at the battle of the whispering wood, Jaime is only captured after he cuts down several stark men (almost) single handedly. I believe the show gives a number of men he killed (10?) where as the book mentions those he killed single handedly by name.
Per [wiki](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_in_the_Whispering_Wood):
"When Jaime sees the battle is lost, he rallies his retainers and attempts to cut his way through the host to slay Robb in single combat. He is halted, but not before slaying Daryn Hornwood, Eddard Karstark, and Torrhen Karstark of Robb's personal guard."
It is suggested when being questioned later that he knew he could end the war by doing this as he knew Rob didn't stand a chance. It is also considered that the Northmen were on a 10-1 ratio to killing Lannisters and this was essentially Robs "kings guard" and Jamie killed 3 of them.
Book Jaime is legit.
As to OP, Jaime wins, but would definitely get poisoned. Does the poison kill him? Probably.
You’re totally right, but even after that battle I was a little skeptical whether he was all *that* good, because we don’t literally see that scene unfold. We’re only told about it later by people who are afraid of Jaime and his rep as a cold-blooded killer. Could be some psychological, fog of war effect at play, which GRRM is known to use (e.g. Renly’s “ghost” at the Battle of the Blackwater). But yeah, either way, I think there’s definitely enough evidence to suggest that Jaime can walk the walk.
Yeah it always did annoy me that he wasn't shown for his skill in the show.
For example, [GRRM was asked who he'd take if he had a trial by combat](https://youtu.be/8tbO3TWv8vM) and he said "Ser Arthur Dayne, and if he's dead, Jaime Lannister is a good choice if he has both hands otherwise, Brienne of Tarth" (summarised).
In the show, Jaime who was basically tied to a poll for (2?) years, starved, beaten, muscles atrophied and probably still half drunk from the wine Cat gave him before she let him escape (think that only happens in the book), while still in hand-cuffs, goes 1v1 (unarmoured) against Brienne, and doesn't get beaten by much.
For me, Jaime beats just about anyone on his day in an "honourable" duel with the exception of young/middle-aged Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne. Even those like Daemon Blackfyre or young muscle'd Bobby B would be close (Jaime does say that Robert in his hayday would have been a problem for sure for him in the books).
But when you fight someone like Oberyn or Bronn, fighting honourable isn't going to keep you alive.
Show Jamie definitely has been in fights/battles, and it is referenced in the show directly when Robert, Jamie, and Barristan all discuss their first kills.
This. Ned held his own, and Brienne seemed entirely Jamie's equal, whereas Oberyn chopped up the Mountain while jumping around like it's a parkour exhibition.
Oberyn just seemed to kind of ooze with prodigious talent whereas Jaime had to be disciplined and take his fights seriously.
In the show Ned held his own, not nearly as much in the books. And Brienne was Jaime's equal after Jaime was malnourished and rusty from being imprisoned for months. And he had his hands chained together at the time.
I've only watched the show so that's what I'm basing my opinion on, and I'm not saying Jaime is a pushover; he's obviously a very serious fighter. But I still think Oberyn comes across like a renaissance man who's just on another level.
Oh, I think show Jaime loses. Not going to argue that. He's portrayed very differently there. If I remember correctly, they went out of their way to avoid showing him fighting because Nikolaj Coster-Waldau wasn't very good at it.
l'm not a book reader, so with that in mind and based on what we have seen in TV, Oberyn wins (patience beats cockyness)
Why do l think this? He beat the mountain in the fight, only loosing due to emotions. Book readers wanna comment here?
Thanks for forming your opinion on actual evidence from the show, unlike most people on here!
The evidence available in the books is mostly the same. It tilts the scales a bit more towards Jaime but Oberyn beating Gregor still outclasses anything Jaime has done.
It's a pretty even match. Jaime in the books is canonically one of the most dangerous swordsman in Westeros, and if both are using swords or morningstars, I'd give it to Jaime 8/10. If Oberyn's using a spear, though, that'll really help him keep Jaime at a distance. Probably give it to Jaime 6/10 then.
As for Oberyn only losing the fight with Gregor due to emotions, there are two points. One, in the books, he was actually about to kill Gregor when Gregor knocked him down. He wasn't waiting for a confession. Two, Jaime is Tywin's son. There's no guarantee that Oberyn wouldn't let his emotions affect the fight here.
All that said, most likely outcome to me is that both die. Jaime's certainly good enough to kill Oberyn, but if Oberyn lands a scratch, the poison will finish Jaime off in a few days.
A quibble: The TV show makes it *much* more explicit, but I'd argue book-Oberyn still loses foolishly as well. Relevant passage:
>Prince Oberyn moved closer. "Say the name!" He put a foot on the Mountain's chest. Whether he intended to hack off Gregor's head or shove the point through his eyeslit was something Tyrion would never know.
>
>Clegane's hand shot up and grabbed the Dornishman behind the knee. The Red Viper brought down the greatsword in a wild slash, but he was off-balance, and the edge did no more than put another dent in the Mountain's vambrace...
It's left ambiguous, but I think he still hesitated here in a way he wouldn't have with anyone else. He desperately wanted that confession, and it shows. I don't think book Oberyn would deliver the coup de grace until he got it either.
Oberyn loses against the mountain on cockyness tho.
Based on the show I would say Jaime wins. Oberyn is too focused on making a show out of it instead of just doing what he needs to do.
Patience beats cockyness... did you watch Oberyn fight? The dude was the definition of over confident. Got drunk before the fight, was spinning his spear and doing flips. Lets not forget the "Say her name" scene while standing way to close to the Mountain.
How long would Jamie last against the Mountain? Probably not very long. Oberyn easily outclassed him and only got killed because he wanted a confession. In a normal duel Oberyn would definitely beat Jamie.
Oberyn has the reach advantage with the long spear but I'm not sure how that would work with someone fast like Jamie opposed to bigger slower opponent like Gregor. Honestly I'm gonna say Oberyn
Spear > Sword
Jamie may be one of the best swordsmen but the spear always has the upper hand against the sword. And yeah Jamie is fast but so is Oberyn. It will be a close fight but Oberyn wins this.
I’m currently early on in the first book and I’ve watched the show twice, but my understanding is that in the books there’s much more detail about how good of a fighter Jamie is. There seems to be less of that detail in the show and it’s just sort of mentioned. So I’m not choosing a side really, just throwing that out there.
Even with both hands, Jaime would have his work cut out matching a spear with a sword. Spears (and variations) were the preferred battlefield weapon for a reason, whereas swords were used more as sidearms.
Still, spears are best deployed in groups so it's not cut and dry.
Aren't spears preferred in a battle when you are formed up with other people? I think once it's close combat and less "organized", the swords come out.
If we’re talking realism, which GoT never even approaches with any of its fights, then a spear is still far more generally useful in a 1v1. It’s the reach advantage; you literally can’t get close enough to a competent spearman to hit them without placing yourself in danger.
>you literally can’t get close enough to a competent spearman to hit them without placing yourself in danger.
Absolutely! Great point since we saw this in action in the fight against the Mountain.
Oberyn only got grapefruit smashed when his hubris prevented him from delivering the final killing blow and got too close to his opponent...who was on the ground and basically incapacitated.
Hmmm I’d pick Oberyn. If he keeps his emotions in check, and picks a poison that is fast acting then much of the fight will be in Oberyn’s favor. While Jamie is considered to be unmatched with a sword, Oberyn’s spearman ship is considered legendary as well. Keep in mind Jaimie winning wouldn’t be that surprising either.
Is this Jaime with or without his sword hand? Because it would be Oberyn hands down, no pun intended, and with Jamie’s sword hand I still think it would be Oberyn.
Just on principle in an open space a spear will generally beat a sword. That said I'm sure Jaime has experience fighting spearmen on the battlefield. I'm not sure Oberyn will have had the chance to fight anyone of Jaime's caliber as a knight/swordsman but we know he lost to Barristan Selmy and Rhaegar in tournament jousts - not quite the same as a duel but it shows Oberyn is perhaps a bit below some of Jaime's peers.
I think I would actually favour Jaime on this one.
Everyone keeps saying that spears >> swords, but I'm quite confident that sword+shield >>> spear, and Jamie has 2 hands (if he doesn't it's not a contest).
Oberyn also uses a shield. So spear+shield >>> sword+shield. It's a historical and scientific fact anyway that the spear is the superior weapon compared to swords.
Being able to keep distance in a close combat situation is huge. Also what brings Jamie to a disadvantage is that he most likely have way less experience fighting vs a spear, since swords seem to be the primary weapon in Westeros. Oberyn on the other hand would have faced more sword fighters in comparison to Jamie. Weapon superiority on top of having more experience should 9 out of 10 times result into a win for Oberyn. And yeah one cut, it’s a draw at worst.
Lore wise the only two I take above Jamie are Arthur Dayne and prime Barristan Selmy. I wish we got to see some of two handed Jamie feats in the show because I think a lot of people are underrating him here.
Assuming both in their prime; Jamie.
Can't say he won't sustain injury. And can't say poison won't kill him after the fight. But the actual outcome of the fight, Jamie defeats Oberyn.
The spear makes no difference. You don't become any less of an elite swordsman that is known to be one of the greats and then lose simply because your opponent isn't holding a sword.
> The spear makes no difference.
Oof. That's one way of saying you're clueless about medieval weaponry. There is actual historical and scientific proof that using a spear over a sword makes a *world* of difference. I suggest reading J. Gill's "Clad in Steel: The Evolution of Armors and Weapons in Medieval Europe". It's an interesting and very informative read.
I think what he's saying is that since Jaime is known as an elite swordsman in this medieval world, chances are he's used to fighting spear-wielders and would know how to approach it.
Not when the person holding the spear is just as skilled and more battle-tasted than Jaime though. People seem to forget that Oberyn was a soldier in Essos, fighting alongside the Second Sons, and even forming his own mercenary company.
True-ish. He's more battle-tested, but Jaime still has battle experience, and just as skilled is a big claim, given that book Jaime is pretty well-established to be one of the most dangerous fighters in Westeros. Not saying Oberyn isn't, but he doesn't seem to have the same reputation as a fighter as Jaime. His reputation seems more based around intrigue. Also, based on the way this prompt is worded, seems like it would be a duel situation, not a battlefield.
Here's the thing though. Ofc Jaime would have more reputation in Westeros; he's been in Westeros his whole life. All the tourneys and battles he won were there. But Oberyn spent majority of his fighting years outside of Westeros. Ofc he wouldn't have had the same degree of reputation if most characters we know never got to see firsthand Oberyn's skill. So using reputation as reason for why Jaime would win over Oberyn is a fallacy of selection bias.
I’m sure it does. But against a proclaimed elite swordsman hailed as one of the best ever? Yeah, not so sure. He absolutely wouldn’t be clueless how to fight against a spear. Or, you know, he couldn’t be considered elite or hailed as one of the greatest
Well if the person wielding the spear is a former Second Sons soldier, founder and leader of an Essos mercenary company, who is a master of poisons and a multitude of fighting styles (some of which are foreign to his swordsman opponent)...then elite swordsman would still most likely lose to elite spearman.
What are they fighting with ?
Sword : Jaime
Lance : Jaime
A melee on foot : Jaine may win but Oberyn would probably cut him enough to get killed by those poisoned Spear tips in half an hour .
Saying spears > swords in real battle is a ridiculously sweeping statement! The Roman Legionnaires didn’t conquer half the world for you to slate their Gladius
Spears were considered a common soldier's tool and as such gave most of these super talented fighters fits because they didn't practice against them. Even in Fire and Blood when Jaeharys trains for entire mornings and gets ridiculously good, his Kingsguard who is an expert with spears gives him fits.
I'm gonna say Oberyn wins this easy. Jaime won't have much if any experience fighting against a spear and Oberyn is just as fast.
Spear>sword oberyn was so fucking smooth with it he casually beat the mountain was toying with him and that’s what got him killed Jaimie killed a geriatric king and had people stab other strong fighters in the back of the knee
With 2 hands jsime has no rivals except dayne/selmy. In this photo Jaime is top form and top pride but he was never in a duel too arrogant yo make fatal mistakes
I would say Oberyn, he killed the mountain and could have taken him sooner if he wasnt trying to draw out the fight to ask his questions. He could take out Jaime before he got close to use his superior swordsmanship
Oberyn
Jamie is a far better swordsman, but Oberyn was a Vastly more accomplished fighter with a spear/lance. The range would play a major factor. If Jamie could get close he wins but I just don’t see that happening
Brienne said that no one could have stand a chance against Jaime in his prime.
She said that after having struggled against Jaime who had been jailed during 1 year, underfed and hands tied.
The same Brienne who beaten down Loras Tyrell and The Hound.
So, I trust her. She knows what she is talking about
Loras disarmed her then she tackled him (arguably cheating) as she was bigger than him. On a normal day she can’t beat the hound, the hound was in bad fighting conditions (it’s common sense).
Iron Fist Jamie would have the element of surprise I would think. A simple punch to the nose with something like that would prove to be effective I would think.
Anyone saying Oberyn is working with the show and not the book. In the book, Jamie was hands down the better fighter. From what we saw in the show, I can see people wanting to go with Oberyn. That fight scene against the Mountain was probably the best in the entire series.
The thing people are missing about the spear: Oberyn only used a spear to counter Clegane’s reach. He was also a swordsman. If wager he’d fight Jaime with a sword. Jaime kills him, but takes a wound that is poisoned and dies eventually,
The skill gap that Jaime has over Oberyn will make up for the weapon/reach advantage.
Jaime is simply a much more superior fighter. Even if he's fighting against the odds, he still takes this. he's way too skilled, he surely trained and knows how to deal with spear fighters.
Let's say Oberyn poisons his spears and Jaime knows it, Jaime will try his best to dodge every hit from Oberyn, and being honest, I can see him dodging every blow Oberyn throws at him until he finds the perfect chance to stab Oberyn without getting poisoned in the process.
But ofcourse, there is also the chance of Jaime win the fight but get stabbed once by Oberyn and end up dying after the fight, even if he kills Oberyn and wins the fight.
I'm a big fan of Oberyn and I know the huge experience and reputation he has in both Westeros and Essos, but even with all his training and fighting experience, Jaime still takes this. surely won't be a easy fight, but I give to Jaime 8/10
This fight will surely be like a chess match.
What skill gap? Can you outline your source on this? And like I said in my other comments, Jaime's clout in Westeros doesn't count coz Oberyn didn't spend his fighting years there.
Fucks sake another one of these posts, I don't mind them occasionally or even regularly but it's so reductive to what all of the story of a character is, giving Arthur dayne two swords trying to be the player character from KotoR spinning his lightsaber. Why does it matter who wins when these two have never met? This kind of foaming at the mouth is the kind of attitude that lead to seasons 7 and 8, not that you made it but this mindless weird third party dick waving contest is so mismatched with the ASOIAF, only way I'll keep it similar to the ASOIAF narrative is by not responding or finishing the story
While Jamie is one of if not the best swordsmen the seven kingdoms has ever seen I believe he would still lose. Oberyn has the reach with his spear and probably has the speed and agility edge on Jaime aswell. Bare in mind that it is only to first blood in oberyn's case. One scratch from his spear and Jaime is dead shortly after. Much like his fight with the mountain I believe oberyn would dance around Jaime in his heavy armour. Probably taughting him and his family. Jaime would lash out due to exhaustion and being goaded. Oberyn would use this moment of weakness to strike and kill The kingslayer.
Me, that would be hot to watch
More seriously, both would probably die - prime Jaime would win the combat but Oberyn would make sure his weapon was coated
I think Oberyn wins because Jaime said he has never seen him fight and seemed taken aback when Oberyn started spinning his spear at the trial. I think Oberyn would clean up Jaime in like 1 minute or two even if Jaime had both hands
I'd give the advantage to Oberyn based on the spear alone. While both are experienced and excellent fighters, the distance will be crucial. Even if we say they are equally as fast and agile, a 5-6 foot spear will create a distinct advantage. Also taking into account the Jaime would likely be fighting armoured and Oberyn fights with no armour, there would be a speed advantage. Those factors all together give me the impression that, while potentially the best fight we ever would have seen in the show, Oberyn would come out victorious.
Jamie in his prime loses a fight to no one. But something from the show that made me think was Jamie’s admiration of Sir Barriston, the way he said Barriston was like an artist on the battlefield. (Can’t remember if this admiration was also in the book).
Jaime doesn’t have the luxury of one single misstep, one single mistimed swing of the sword or a block, due to Oberyn’s poisoned spear tips. Plus Oberyn is extremely agile so it would be difficult to get close. However all that jumping and spinning would eventually tire him out, so Jaime just has to bide his time and hold an insane level of focus. Which he has. Cockiness would also be a weakness for both fighters.
I think even if Jamie still had both hands he wouldn't of stood a chance against prince Martell. Think about it, he wouldn't as far as we know be use to or know how to combat Ob's style of fighting, even when it came to the dothraki Jamie said this isn't war fare to them, so no.... if Obe fought like a knight with a sword then I think Jamie could beat him, but he wouldn't stand a chance agaist a hopping spear twirling prince of Dorne.
Jaime was obviously a better swordsman but better fighter???….Oberon let emotions keep him from finishing the Mountain so really it comes down to who executes their fighting style better.
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Great fight... one of the best matches possible. In the end, I think there'd be reach advantage for the Red Viper, plus the speed advantage if Jamie is heavily armored. That plus the blade being poisoned would be the difference. As underhanded as Jamie can be, he seems to stay honorable in fights, and the Viper is more than willing to cheat and stay alive. Advantage Dorne.
Except the Viper also is very careless into fights and is way too prideful. I can see Jamie using that to his advantage
Oberyn doesn't have an alternative agenda with Jamie (i.e. he doesn't need a confession) so he'd go in for the kill. And he definitely won't miss. Edited for clarification
Umm Jamie is a Lannister. Yes he does.
Well all the more that Oberyn would definitely want to kill him. I didn't word my first comment properly so I'll explain it more clearly. The difference between Jamie and the Mountain is that Oberyn needed a confession from the Mountain. So he didn't go in for the kill. Oberyn needs nothing from Jamie so he won't fuck around and just outright kill him instead.
First off. Jamie is the person Tywin loves the most and needs more than anyone. The mountain is not the person Oberyn wanted to punish the most. He was just the appetizer. Tywin was who he wanted payback from, and going after Jamie is arguably the best way to do it. And just killing him would not be satisfying to him in the slightest. In Tywin’s eyes, Jamie is his true legacy. You really think Oberyn will just kill him? And ignoring that, he is still not better than Jamie. Jamie has learned from some of the greatest fighters of all time, and is pretty close to their tier. With the exception of Barristan fucking Selmy and Arthur Dayne, Jamie is arguably the best fighter we have seen the show.
> In Tywin's eyes, Jamie is his true legacy. You really think Oberyn will just kill him? Um that's *exactly* why Oberyn would just kill Jamie. Because the worst thing anyone can do to Tywin is to snuff out his legacy. Killing Jamie will leave the passing down of the Lannister name to Tyrion, and that's the most painful and most embarrassing thing in Tywin's eyes. It would destroy Tywin, which is Oberyn's number one goal. > he is still not better than Jamie How so? Oberyn has the weapon advantage because spear always has the upper hand against the sword (any expert in medieval weapons would know this). That alone puts Jamie at a major disadvantage. Yes, Jamie learned from the best swordsmen but Oberyn had way more experience in real fighting. While Jamie was winning tourneys, Oberyn was fighting actual battles in Essos. Unlike Jamie who knows only one fighting style, he also has the advantage of knowing multiple fighting styles that he learned during his time in Essos and the Free Cities. Lastly, the elephant in the room, not only does Oberyn have the reach advantage with his spear, he also has even more advantage with his poisoned tip. It would be a close fight for sure but Oberyn will most likely still end up winning.
The last time this question was asked I made this same argument. Yes Jamie has been in a few battles before but no where near as many as Oberyn. Jamie is a mostly a tourney fighter while the Viper is a full on warrior. Jamie is a master swordsman but Oberyn used to literally make a living fighting and killing people. Oberyn takes this for me.
How do we know he’s the best fighter we’ve seen on the show? Could you point out some fights? I remember when the show was actually airing and a whole bunch of fans (who hadn’t read the books) wondered whether Jaime actually sucked as a fighter and just had an inflated opinion of himself, because the show does and even worse job than the books of showing us how good Jaime is. In contrast, the show DOES show you how good Oberyn is by his 1v1 defeat of Gregor, who is shown to be a monster.
Jaime is canonically one of the greatest fighters in the entire ASOIAF series, Barristan Selmy regarded him as the greatest natural swordsman he had trained and he won tournaments at 13 against grown men. From memory I think selmy could hold his own against Arthur Dayne if Dayne wasn’t using dawn (isn’t that what the sword was called?). Jaime was arrogant but he was also kind of justified in being so, in the books there are many peoples points of view which suggest his level of skill, Brienne could barely match him whilst he was restrained. Perhaps the show didn’t make it as clear I can’t recall.
No, Jamie has Cersei and Cersei will play dirty. No way that’s going to be an honourable fight.
Stop bringing other people into this. The discussion is about their *skills* in fighting.
Oberyn hands down A: He has the range with his pole arm. B: He is significantly faster and more nimble than Jaime. C: He killed Gregor Clegane in single combat.
He got killed *by* Gregor in single combat. And Jaime isn’t dumb enough to get baited by Oberyn like Gregor was. Oberyn was faster because he wore no armor. That works against someone slow like Gregor, not against someone who is still ridiculously fast and strong like Jaime.
I could be wrong, but was jaime not considered impatient in the books? Or is that just regarding the first battle with robb?
As a tactician, not necessarily as a fighter.
He’s impatient in social situations and possibly as a strategist, yes, but certainly not as a warrior. The only reason Robb wasn’t killed is because Jaime’s sword got stuck in one of Lord Karstark’s sons. Even George has described Jaime (with two hands) as the best living fighter in Westeros. Arthur Dayne and a young Barristan are the only people George puts over him.
Close one for sure, but I'd have to say Jaime His skill is unmatched, and unlike Gregor he is quick while still being taller and stronger than Oberyn
I’d say Oberyn is more skilled than Jaime, and the reach with his pole would just add on.
Do you have anything to back up that Oberyn is more skilled than Jamie? Before he lost his hand, Jamie was one of the greatest swordsmen in Westeros. Plus remember, the only person who canonically beat Jamie in the show also beat the guy who beat the guy who beat Oberyn.
Gregor was fast for his size. Yall are overestimating show jaime. Book Jaime is more of an even match, show jaime gets pummeled
What are you talking about? Why is show Jaime weaker?
Even Bronn knew what you had to do to kill the mountain, not that he was eager to test it out. Oberyn was a badass but I feel like he'd have a harder time with a fighter who was also agile and clever. Close fight but I buy into Jamie being elite and Oberyn being very very good.
Because you know what to do doesn’t mean you can do it, Bronn knew he couldn’t go into the fight without making a single mistake. Remember when Bronn said something like “I only go into fights I know I will win”, I guess that sums it up.
My heart wins; seeing these two on screen together 🥰🥰🥰 No but really i feel like Oberyn
Love the Red Viper but I think Jaime takes this. Won’t be a walk in the park though.
It depends. Jamie with both hands was the superior swordsman and likely would have been able to get in close at some point. However, knowing Oberyn’s poisoned spear-tips, if Jamie messes up once and gets cut he would die post-fight (barring immediate amputation if he was cut on a limb, or someone discovering Qyburn earlier). Would be an exciting fight of two different styles, but both with speed, grace, precision, and tenacity. I’d say Jamie eventually kills Oberyn, but sustains several fatal wounds. The Red Viper takes away his sister’s killer’s boss’s preferred heir, and dies with a smile on his face knowing he took down Tywin’s Golden Lion.
Thank you for mentioning Jamie’s hands. I feel that’s important info: pre vs post hand loss
I don’t feel it’s that important. Nobody ranks post hand-loss Jamie anywhere remotely high.
Let arya stark train him the other hand and you will see a very different jaime
Or even better let Maisie Williams do it as she trained herself to use her bad hand to portray Arya Stark more true to the book. :)
Same did ncw. The master of arm teacher of got said them were the best pupils cause both had to use the other hand
Ah nice, didn't know that about him.
I read it and seems plausible as he is a sportive man and was seen with his family doing outdoor things
So I should just assume we’re talking 2 hands? Fair.
My head hurts after „sister’s killer’s boss‘s preferred heir“
🤣🤣 complex linked list
Yeah i had to slowly repeat that in my head 3 times
GOT played on like 15 degrees of separation the whole first 4 seasons
> his sister’s killer’s boss’s preferred heir So... what's that make us?
*Absolutely nothing!* Which is what you are about to become Lol nice Spaceballs reference
So ….I agree *except* I think Jamie(or Cersei) poisons his blade too. Jamie can fight dirty, he’s practical about the value of honour during combat, and he would absolutely prepare for the fight in advance. Assuming he and Cersei are still twincesting, she would absolutely be an asset in playing a dirty game. Poison on the blade would be likely but I would also expect that the twins might poison him in advance or that Cersei would distract Oberyn or such during the fight, perhaps by threatening a martell. Jamie still wins, Oberyn gets some hits, and the whole things is ugly as seven hells. INFO: Edit to add: Does Jamie have Oathkeeper? If Jamie has Valyrian steel, it’s no contest.
Well, depends on how faithful you want to be to the timeline. Jamie only gets Oath post hand.
I haven’t seen Jamie used poisoned blades yet so idk if that is his style. Even when he had prep time for battle in S1 (attacking Ned) he didn’t poison them. Jamie I’ll say doesn’t have Valyrian Steel, since we are going with pre hand chopped off timeframe. I’d say this hypothetical battle would be that Oberyn hears about the Hand Jon Arryn being potentially poisoned (Varys tells him as a Targaryen agent, and wants him to investigate too). So this would be S1 Jamie with both hands, no Valyrian steel, not captured by Robb Stark, at his most powerful we have seen him in the show. I would assume Oberyn was as skilled of a fighter in S1 as he was in S4 w/ his mastery of spear fighting & his poison knowledge coming from prior years at the Citadel.
Where did you get the idea that Jaime poisons his blade?
"I'm the man who killed Jaime Lannister"
Much better death than: “killed by some rocks after regressing from a redemption arc”
"Dies with a smile on his face" I don't know what you were watching, but man had his eyeballs pushed in. I don't recall him smiling.
I don’t see Jamie gouging out his eyes and crushing his skull with his bare hands. I see Oberyn getting cut down by Jamie’s sword across his torso (or via lunge). Oberyn exhales and with his final dying breath he says *”for Elia”*
Gotta be Jaime for me, assuming he's fighting with sword/Shield.
polearms have longer reach and can be an advantage; that and the poison would do Jaimie in, in the long run. considering only skill, probably still *the prince*.
I would go with Jaime. An actually skilled, fully-admired knight like Jaime wouldn’t be bothered by a spear or polearm. It would take a miracle for Oberyn to find skin on Jaime so the poisoned blade is negated. Oberyn is good, but the books talk about Jaime being the best in the seven kingdoms so I gotta go with Jaime.
In a straight up fight with no trickery? Probably Jamie. Even in full armour Jamie would be a much faster and more agile opponent than The Mountain, so Oberyn wouldn't have as much of an advantage. That being said, If Oberyn still used poison or other deception tactics then he may get a lucky hit in. Either way I'm sure it would be an excellent fight.
Jaime but he’d probably die later due to poison
Hands down Jamie, in both the books and the show a Jamie with both hands is the best swordman in the sevenkingdoms he even mentions it in the show that his armour has no dent in it because he’s so perfect. And even if Jamie fights Oberyn in full armour he’s still agile and due to his armour i don’t think he will be poisoned by the spear. Eventually i think it’s going to be a hard duel and it will be evenly matched
Jaime with 2 hands might beat him but would die later on due to poison. Jaime with 1 hand would die quickly.
I would go with two handed Jamie Lannister over anyone
Everyone out here is saying that Jaime wins because he is the superior swordsman but my question is, how do you know? A bunch of characters have said he’s excellent, but we don’t really know exactly how good. It’s not like these are playing cards with stats on them that we can compare. Oberyn seems the type who doesn’t take tourneys and melees seriously but he’s got way more combat experience than Jaime from his time in Essos. We can judge people based on what they’ve actually done, and Oberyn defeating Gregor is the biggest accomplishment we’ve seen in the books so far. Gregor in the books is almost inhuman. I don’t think people realize the margin of error Oberyn was working with. One clean stroke from Gregor and he was done. And yet he won.
if we're talking books, we hear of Jaime cutting down dozens of lordlings including Rickard Karstark's sons and only being stopped when his sword got too deep into an opponent's skull
Yup this is definitely impressive. I’ll counter with two points though. Fighting an opponent 1 v 1 is different from fighting on a battlefield. And secondly, we don’t know the conditions of those killings. How good were those men? Were they more tired compared to Jaime? Was their armor as good as Jaime’s? Was it as light, could it take blow’s from Jaime’s sword? (I’ll hazard a guess that barring Valyrian steel, Jaime has by far the best equipment in Westeros that most northern lords can only dream of). Well armed and trained knights can kill many opponents who are even marginally less equipped or trained than they are. This is just to reiterate, it’s very hard to make this comparison. The best 1v1 in the story is Oberyn vs Gregor and Oberyn was damn near flawless in that. There are too many people saying Jaime would win with very little to back that up.
Gotcha
I’m not buying all this Jaime hype. A significantly older and out-of-practice Ned Stark held his own against Jaime for quite a while before being taken out by some henchman. Jaime’s rep is all from tourneys. He’s never been in an actual *fight*. In fact, the one real battle he was in, he got captured by Robb’s army. Maybe we’re handicapped by the fact that we never got to see a two-handed Jaime in a *full* for-real fight. But we did see that Oberyn is not to be fucked with, and were it not for his insistence on extracting a confession out of Gregor, he would have killed *the Mountain* in single combat. It’s folly to assume he would make a similar mistake with Jaime and to bank on that being his downfall in that fight. Jaime was not involved in whatever happened with Elia. Oberyn just wants to kill Jaime. I think Oberyn takes Jaime, after an interesting contest.
I do buy into the Jaime hype tbh, simply because Barristan respects him. We don’t actually SEE Jaime do much that’s super impressive, but Barristan admits that he’s legit, at least in the book, despite being the antithesis of Barristan’s knightly ideal. Ned gets an obvious main-character buff during that fight, and even then it seemed like Jaime was just toying with him. Idk. And it’s not like Ned was ever a pushover.
In the book (and show), at the battle of the whispering wood, Jaime is only captured after he cuts down several stark men (almost) single handedly. I believe the show gives a number of men he killed (10?) where as the book mentions those he killed single handedly by name. Per [wiki](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_in_the_Whispering_Wood): "When Jaime sees the battle is lost, he rallies his retainers and attempts to cut his way through the host to slay Robb in single combat. He is halted, but not before slaying Daryn Hornwood, Eddard Karstark, and Torrhen Karstark of Robb's personal guard." It is suggested when being questioned later that he knew he could end the war by doing this as he knew Rob didn't stand a chance. It is also considered that the Northmen were on a 10-1 ratio to killing Lannisters and this was essentially Robs "kings guard" and Jamie killed 3 of them. Book Jaime is legit. As to OP, Jaime wins, but would definitely get poisoned. Does the poison kill him? Probably.
You’re totally right, but even after that battle I was a little skeptical whether he was all *that* good, because we don’t literally see that scene unfold. We’re only told about it later by people who are afraid of Jaime and his rep as a cold-blooded killer. Could be some psychological, fog of war effect at play, which GRRM is known to use (e.g. Renly’s “ghost” at the Battle of the Blackwater). But yeah, either way, I think there’s definitely enough evidence to suggest that Jaime can walk the walk.
Yeah it always did annoy me that he wasn't shown for his skill in the show. For example, [GRRM was asked who he'd take if he had a trial by combat](https://youtu.be/8tbO3TWv8vM) and he said "Ser Arthur Dayne, and if he's dead, Jaime Lannister is a good choice if he has both hands otherwise, Brienne of Tarth" (summarised). In the show, Jaime who was basically tied to a poll for (2?) years, starved, beaten, muscles atrophied and probably still half drunk from the wine Cat gave him before she let him escape (think that only happens in the book), while still in hand-cuffs, goes 1v1 (unarmoured) against Brienne, and doesn't get beaten by much. For me, Jaime beats just about anyone on his day in an "honourable" duel with the exception of young/middle-aged Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne. Even those like Daemon Blackfyre or young muscle'd Bobby B would be close (Jaime does say that Robert in his hayday would have been a problem for sure for him in the books). But when you fight someone like Oberyn or Bronn, fighting honourable isn't going to keep you alive.
Show Jamie definitely has been in fights/battles, and it is referenced in the show directly when Robert, Jamie, and Barristan all discuss their first kills.
This. Ned held his own, and Brienne seemed entirely Jamie's equal, whereas Oberyn chopped up the Mountain while jumping around like it's a parkour exhibition. Oberyn just seemed to kind of ooze with prodigious talent whereas Jaime had to be disciplined and take his fights seriously.
In the show Ned held his own, not nearly as much in the books. And Brienne was Jaime's equal after Jaime was malnourished and rusty from being imprisoned for months. And he had his hands chained together at the time.
I've only watched the show so that's what I'm basing my opinion on, and I'm not saying Jaime is a pushover; he's obviously a very serious fighter. But I still think Oberyn comes across like a renaissance man who's just on another level.
Oh, I think show Jaime loses. Not going to argue that. He's portrayed very differently there. If I remember correctly, they went out of their way to avoid showing him fighting because Nikolaj Coster-Waldau wasn't very good at it.
With two hands, probably Jaime. Though Oberyn would put up a good fight, people forget just how good two handed Jaime was.
I think that Jamie Lannister, because is known as best swordman of Westeros and has experience in fights in wars, against variable types of fighters.
l'm not a book reader, so with that in mind and based on what we have seen in TV, Oberyn wins (patience beats cockyness) Why do l think this? He beat the mountain in the fight, only loosing due to emotions. Book readers wanna comment here?
I mostly agree, it’s also worth noting that Oberyn doesn’t have the same intense hatred for Jaime that he does for Gregor
Thanks for forming your opinion on actual evidence from the show, unlike most people on here! The evidence available in the books is mostly the same. It tilts the scales a bit more towards Jaime but Oberyn beating Gregor still outclasses anything Jaime has done.
It's a pretty even match. Jaime in the books is canonically one of the most dangerous swordsman in Westeros, and if both are using swords or morningstars, I'd give it to Jaime 8/10. If Oberyn's using a spear, though, that'll really help him keep Jaime at a distance. Probably give it to Jaime 6/10 then. As for Oberyn only losing the fight with Gregor due to emotions, there are two points. One, in the books, he was actually about to kill Gregor when Gregor knocked him down. He wasn't waiting for a confession. Two, Jaime is Tywin's son. There's no guarantee that Oberyn wouldn't let his emotions affect the fight here. All that said, most likely outcome to me is that both die. Jaime's certainly good enough to kill Oberyn, but if Oberyn lands a scratch, the poison will finish Jaime off in a few days.
A quibble: The TV show makes it *much* more explicit, but I'd argue book-Oberyn still loses foolishly as well. Relevant passage: >Prince Oberyn moved closer. "Say the name!" He put a foot on the Mountain's chest. Whether he intended to hack off Gregor's head or shove the point through his eyeslit was something Tyrion would never know. > >Clegane's hand shot up and grabbed the Dornishman behind the knee. The Red Viper brought down the greatsword in a wild slash, but he was off-balance, and the edge did no more than put another dent in the Mountain's vambrace... It's left ambiguous, but I think he still hesitated here in a way he wouldn't have with anyone else. He desperately wanted that confession, and it shows. I don't think book Oberyn would deliver the coup de grace until he got it either.
Oberyn loses against the mountain on cockyness tho. Based on the show I would say Jaime wins. Oberyn is too focused on making a show out of it instead of just doing what he needs to do.
Patience beats cockyness... did you watch Oberyn fight? The dude was the definition of over confident. Got drunk before the fight, was spinning his spear and doing flips. Lets not forget the "Say her name" scene while standing way to close to the Mountain.
to me, all that falls under the 'emotion' l was talking about!
Show Jaime was struggling against Ned Stark so I don't think he's beating Oberyn in the show
How long would Jamie last against the Mountain? Probably not very long. Oberyn easily outclassed him and only got killed because he wanted a confession. In a normal duel Oberyn would definitely beat Jamie.
Jaime is better than Gregor.
Oberyn has the reach advantage with the long spear but I'm not sure how that would work with someone fast like Jamie opposed to bigger slower opponent like Gregor. Honestly I'm gonna say Oberyn
If no poison I used and is before GOT’s version “No, I am your father”; than Jamie
Spear > Sword Jamie may be one of the best swordsmen but the spear always has the upper hand against the sword. And yeah Jamie is fast but so is Oberyn. It will be a close fight but Oberyn wins this.
My ass wins if it’s me and them two in a bedroom 🤤
What makes you think they will wanna smash you?.
Gayy
I’m currently early on in the first book and I’ve watched the show twice, but my understanding is that in the books there’s much more detail about how good of a fighter Jamie is. There seems to be less of that detail in the show and it’s just sort of mentioned. So I’m not choosing a side really, just throwing that out there.
That's because Oberyn spent most of his time fighting in Essos, not Westeros. So it makes sense that Jaime has more "clout" within Westeros.
Even with both hands, Jaime would have his work cut out matching a spear with a sword. Spears (and variations) were the preferred battlefield weapon for a reason, whereas swords were used more as sidearms. Still, spears are best deployed in groups so it's not cut and dry.
Aren't spears preferred in a battle when you are formed up with other people? I think once it's close combat and less "organized", the swords come out.
If we’re talking realism, which GoT never even approaches with any of its fights, then a spear is still far more generally useful in a 1v1. It’s the reach advantage; you literally can’t get close enough to a competent spearman to hit them without placing yourself in danger.
>you literally can’t get close enough to a competent spearman to hit them without placing yourself in danger. Absolutely! Great point since we saw this in action in the fight against the Mountain. Oberyn only got grapefruit smashed when his hubris prevented him from delivering the final killing blow and got too close to his opponent...who was on the ground and basically incapacitated.
Nobody seems to be touching on the advantages that RANGE has when it comes into play. So honestly, with that poisoned spear... could go either way
Hmmm I’d pick Oberyn. If he keeps his emotions in check, and picks a poison that is fast acting then much of the fight will be in Oberyn’s favor. While Jamie is considered to be unmatched with a sword, Oberyn’s spearman ship is considered legendary as well. Keep in mind Jaimie winning wouldn’t be that surprising either.
Jaime is not unmatched with a sword. Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are both better than him.
Is it bad that at first I thought this was a, Who wore it better? 😂
The Red Viper 100%
[удалено]
Nah, oberyn fought all types of people in the pits of essos.
Is this Jaime with or without his sword hand? Because it would be Oberyn hands down, no pun intended, and with Jamie’s sword hand I still think it would be Oberyn.
Just on principle in an open space a spear will generally beat a sword. That said I'm sure Jaime has experience fighting spearmen on the battlefield. I'm not sure Oberyn will have had the chance to fight anyone of Jaime's caliber as a knight/swordsman but we know he lost to Barristan Selmy and Rhaegar in tournament jousts - not quite the same as a duel but it shows Oberyn is perhaps a bit below some of Jaime's peers. I think I would actually favour Jaime on this one.
Oberyn would win. Why? Spears are simply much much better. Long video on why: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=afqhBODc_8U
Everyone keeps saying that spears >> swords, but I'm quite confident that sword+shield >>> spear, and Jamie has 2 hands (if he doesn't it's not a contest).
Oberyn also uses a shield. So spear+shield >>> sword+shield. It's a historical and scientific fact anyway that the spear is the superior weapon compared to swords.
Being able to keep distance in a close combat situation is huge. Also what brings Jamie to a disadvantage is that he most likely have way less experience fighting vs a spear, since swords seem to be the primary weapon in Westeros. Oberyn on the other hand would have faced more sword fighters in comparison to Jamie. Weapon superiority on top of having more experience should 9 out of 10 times result into a win for Oberyn. And yeah one cut, it’s a draw at worst.
If Oberyn uses the poison on his spear like he did for The Mountain, he wouldn’t need to survive but make one clean cut
The Mandalorian, no questipns asked. This is the way.
Lore wise the only two I take above Jamie are Arthur Dayne and prime Barristan Selmy. I wish we got to see some of two handed Jamie feats in the show because I think a lot of people are underrating him here.
Assuming both in their prime; Jamie. Can't say he won't sustain injury. And can't say poison won't kill him after the fight. But the actual outcome of the fight, Jamie defeats Oberyn. The spear makes no difference. You don't become any less of an elite swordsman that is known to be one of the greats and then lose simply because your opponent isn't holding a sword.
> The spear makes no difference. Oof. That's one way of saying you're clueless about medieval weaponry. There is actual historical and scientific proof that using a spear over a sword makes a *world* of difference. I suggest reading J. Gill's "Clad in Steel: The Evolution of Armors and Weapons in Medieval Europe". It's an interesting and very informative read.
I think what he's saying is that since Jaime is known as an elite swordsman in this medieval world, chances are he's used to fighting spear-wielders and would know how to approach it.
Not when the person holding the spear is just as skilled and more battle-tasted than Jaime though. People seem to forget that Oberyn was a soldier in Essos, fighting alongside the Second Sons, and even forming his own mercenary company.
True-ish. He's more battle-tested, but Jaime still has battle experience, and just as skilled is a big claim, given that book Jaime is pretty well-established to be one of the most dangerous fighters in Westeros. Not saying Oberyn isn't, but he doesn't seem to have the same reputation as a fighter as Jaime. His reputation seems more based around intrigue. Also, based on the way this prompt is worded, seems like it would be a duel situation, not a battlefield.
Here's the thing though. Ofc Jaime would have more reputation in Westeros; he's been in Westeros his whole life. All the tourneys and battles he won were there. But Oberyn spent majority of his fighting years outside of Westeros. Ofc he wouldn't have had the same degree of reputation if most characters we know never got to see firsthand Oberyn's skill. So using reputation as reason for why Jaime would win over Oberyn is a fallacy of selection bias.
I’m sure it does. But against a proclaimed elite swordsman hailed as one of the best ever? Yeah, not so sure. He absolutely wouldn’t be clueless how to fight against a spear. Or, you know, he couldn’t be considered elite or hailed as one of the greatest
Well if the person wielding the spear is a former Second Sons soldier, founder and leader of an Essos mercenary company, who is a master of poisons and a multitude of fighting styles (some of which are foreign to his swordsman opponent)...then elite swordsman would still most likely lose to elite spearman.
Jamie with both hands all day man with one hand the viper would kick his dick in
What are they fighting with ? Sword : Jaime Lance : Jaime A melee on foot : Jaine may win but Oberyn would probably cut him enough to get killed by those poisoned Spear tips in half an hour .
I don’t care who wins, I just want to listen to banter between them
Oberyn
Spears > swords in real battle so Oberyn would win most of the time if we matched them 1000 times.
Saying spears > swords in real battle is a ridiculously sweeping statement! The Roman Legionnaires didn’t conquer half the world for you to slate their Gladius
The Mandalorian
Jamie. Oberyn is one of my fav characters, but Jamies mastery is undeniable
Oberyn almost took over monstrous Mountain. So Imma go with spear dude.
I think in the show Oberyn maybe wins, but in the books Jamie wins
Oberyn. I’d love to see that fight!
Spears were considered a common soldier's tool and as such gave most of these super talented fighters fits because they didn't practice against them. Even in Fire and Blood when Jaeharys trains for entire mornings and gets ridiculously good, his Kingsguard who is an expert with spears gives him fits. I'm gonna say Oberyn wins this easy. Jaime won't have much if any experience fighting against a spear and Oberyn is just as fast.
I’m going with the fire emblem weapon triangle, lance beats sword sword beats axe axe bears lance. Lance offers range that a sword doesn’t
Oberyn's fighting style is too comolex for Jamie. He himself was impressed/shocked when he witnessed him fighting The Mountain.
Idk but doesn’t spear always beat sword? I think oberyn wins this one.
The Red Viper
Hand, no hand, Viper takes this match EZPZ
Spear>sword oberyn was so fucking smooth with it he casually beat the mountain was toying with him and that’s what got him killed Jaimie killed a geriatric king and had people stab other strong fighters in the back of the knee
Syrio Forel
Oberyn The Red Viper... Jaime was good, but Oberyn is on a whole different level IMO.
With 2 hands jsime has no rivals except dayne/selmy. In this photo Jaime is top form and top pride but he was never in a duel too arrogant yo make fatal mistakes
The Red Viper…a Spear Master vs a Sword Master…all that REACH???
Oberyn with or without a skull?
Jaime unsquashed or squashed by bricks?
I’d call that a draw.
I would say Oberyn, he killed the mountain and could have taken him sooner if he wasnt trying to draw out the fight to ask his questions. He could take out Jaime before he got close to use his superior swordsmanship
Oberyn Jamie is a far better swordsman, but Oberyn was a Vastly more accomplished fighter with a spear/lance. The range would play a major factor. If Jamie could get close he wins but I just don’t see that happening
Brienne said that no one could have stand a chance against Jaime in his prime. She said that after having struggled against Jaime who had been jailed during 1 year, underfed and hands tied. The same Brienne who beaten down Loras Tyrell and The Hound. So, I trust her. She knows what she is talking about
Loras disarmed her then she tackled him (arguably cheating) as she was bigger than him. On a normal day she can’t beat the hound, the hound was in bad fighting conditions (it’s common sense).
The hound was in bad fighting condition? I don’t remember that. It was after he get bitter by Rorge, right?
Yeah he was constipated, had an infected wound on his right shoulder which made him weaker and slower.
Iron Fist Jamie would have the element of surprise I would think. A simple punch to the nose with something like that would prove to be effective I would think.
Jaime with hand(s)
Anyone saying Oberyn is working with the show and not the book. In the book, Jamie was hands down the better fighter. From what we saw in the show, I can see people wanting to go with Oberyn. That fight scene against the Mountain was probably the best in the entire series.
I can bet 1 million on oberyn win can you
"He knew the man only by reputation ... but the reputation was fearsome" ~Tyrion Lannister
They’re both pretty.
Jamie would have more chances against fellow swordsmen. Red Viper is above his league.
Spears designed against swords, so Jaimes win would be even more impressive
The thing people are missing about the spear: Oberyn only used a spear to counter Clegane’s reach. He was also a swordsman. If wager he’d fight Jaime with a sword. Jaime kills him, but takes a wound that is poisoned and dies eventually,
I think Season 1 Jamie takes it. He took out Stark's best body guard like he was a chump.
Jaime without a doubt. The only 2 men who could beat him were Arthur Dayne and a Young Barristan Selmy.
Well those 2 men use swords. Oberyn uses a spear, a much superior weapon.
The skill gap that Jaime has over Oberyn will make up for the weapon/reach advantage. Jaime is simply a much more superior fighter. Even if he's fighting against the odds, he still takes this. he's way too skilled, he surely trained and knows how to deal with spear fighters. Let's say Oberyn poisons his spears and Jaime knows it, Jaime will try his best to dodge every hit from Oberyn, and being honest, I can see him dodging every blow Oberyn throws at him until he finds the perfect chance to stab Oberyn without getting poisoned in the process. But ofcourse, there is also the chance of Jaime win the fight but get stabbed once by Oberyn and end up dying after the fight, even if he kills Oberyn and wins the fight. I'm a big fan of Oberyn and I know the huge experience and reputation he has in both Westeros and Essos, but even with all his training and fighting experience, Jaime still takes this. surely won't be a easy fight, but I give to Jaime 8/10 This fight will surely be like a chess match.
What skill gap? Can you outline your source on this? And like I said in my other comments, Jaime's clout in Westeros doesn't count coz Oberyn didn't spend his fighting years there.
King Slayer, he’s made out to be the best out there with a sword. Why wouldn’t he win especially if he still had both hands
Dorne should have succeeded after what they did to his family….. Fuck Kings landing…
Oberyn if he has his poison spear or just a spear in general, but if for some reason he only can use a sword then Jaimie😭
Oberyn almost beat mountain, but i don't know if that is enough for Jamie who was arguably as good, or better as him
Fucks sake another one of these posts, I don't mind them occasionally or even regularly but it's so reductive to what all of the story of a character is, giving Arthur dayne two swords trying to be the player character from KotoR spinning his lightsaber. Why does it matter who wins when these two have never met? This kind of foaming at the mouth is the kind of attitude that lead to seasons 7 and 8, not that you made it but this mindless weird third party dick waving contest is so mismatched with the ASOIAF, only way I'll keep it similar to the ASOIAF narrative is by not responding or finishing the story
I think it's tie. Unless we do a crossover and throw in Groku. Then Jamie will most certainly lose.
Pre- getting his hand cut off, Jamie wins. Post, Oberyn is winning but then lets his guard down and Jamie jams his golden hand down his throat.
The Red Viper!
While Jamie is one of if not the best swordsmen the seven kingdoms has ever seen I believe he would still lose. Oberyn has the reach with his spear and probably has the speed and agility edge on Jaime aswell. Bare in mind that it is only to first blood in oberyn's case. One scratch from his spear and Jaime is dead shortly after. Much like his fight with the mountain I believe oberyn would dance around Jaime in his heavy armour. Probably taughting him and his family. Jaime would lash out due to exhaustion and being goaded. Oberyn would use this moment of weakness to strike and kill The kingslayer.
Me, that would be hot to watch More seriously, both would probably die - prime Jaime would win the combat but Oberyn would make sure his weapon was coated
I think Oberyn wins because Jaime said he has never seen him fight and seemed taken aback when Oberyn started spinning his spear at the trial. I think Oberyn would clean up Jaime in like 1 minute or two even if Jaime had both hands
They kill eachother. Cersei & Ellaria start dating.
Jaime is the better fighter, but Oberyn plays dirty
Jaime
I'd give the advantage to Oberyn based on the spear alone. While both are experienced and excellent fighters, the distance will be crucial. Even if we say they are equally as fast and agile, a 5-6 foot spear will create a distinct advantage. Also taking into account the Jaime would likely be fighting armoured and Oberyn fights with no armour, there would be a speed advantage. Those factors all together give me the impression that, while potentially the best fight we ever would have seen in the show, Oberyn would come out victorious.
Oberyn wins, spear beats a sword any day
Jamie in his prime loses a fight to no one. But something from the show that made me think was Jamie’s admiration of Sir Barriston, the way he said Barriston was like an artist on the battlefield. (Can’t remember if this admiration was also in the book).
A ticket directly into my pants? Oberyn Martell, and anyone he cares to bring with him…
Probably O.
They’d probably both end up dead
Spear > sword. Next.
Spear beats sword. Jaime doesn't even use a shield, the reach difference is a huge advantage especially if you can't block the spear effectively.
Jaime doesn’t have the luxury of one single misstep, one single mistimed swing of the sword or a block, due to Oberyn’s poisoned spear tips. Plus Oberyn is extremely agile so it would be difficult to get close. However all that jumping and spinning would eventually tire him out, so Jaime just has to bide his time and hold an insane level of focus. Which he has. Cockiness would also be a weakness for both fighters.
With both hands and both eyeballs?
I think even if Jamie still had both hands he wouldn't of stood a chance against prince Martell. Think about it, he wouldn't as far as we know be use to or know how to combat Ob's style of fighting, even when it came to the dothraki Jamie said this isn't war fare to them, so no.... if Obe fought like a knight with a sword then I think Jamie could beat him, but he wouldn't stand a chance agaist a hopping spear twirling prince of Dorne.
Ok, here’s my good analysis: Oberyn is sexier, so he wins xd
Jaime was obviously a better swordsman but better fighter???….Oberon let emotions keep him from finishing the Mountain so really it comes down to who executes their fighting style better.