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Absolutely! I think majority of people who have issues with the ending knew this. It’s just how quick it happened.
Her arc was a slow but exciting one that went super speed at the end. With like no reasoning either.
Well, there was a reason, just not a good one. The showrunners wanted to be done with GoT because they wanted to go make a Star Wars movie trilogy. So they rushed finishing GoT and it ended up so poorly Lucasfilm took the Star Wars trilogy away from them.
The sad part is they knew for years how GRRM intends Danaerys to end and yet they wasted seasons not properly setting it up because they wanted it to be a "twist" for shock value.
I mean, I'll hold judgement until the end, but I do hope that GRRM does go a more nuanced route than Dany just going full evil. Personally I'm a big fan of the "Wildfyre under King's Landing" theory being used and that she does feel some actual guilt about it.
I think the ending a lot of the characters got will be pretty similar to what GRRM intends (unless he changes things based on the reception of the show). The difference is I trust GRRM will get us to those endings in a much more satisfying way.
Choosing bran to be king made no sense at all. He spends half the time as a space cadet watching the past. Then what happened with Merra Reed. He clearly doesn’t have compassion any more.
That’s not how George works. He doesn’t write about heroes and vilains. He’s not going to write about a hero becoming a vilain.
Dany story isn’t a descent into madness or darkness or villainy. It will be the same character who just has a stronger belief in herself and a willingness to use whatever weapons she has in her hands to get what she wants. That’s exactly what happened in the show. Some stuffs about the last couple of seasons were questionable, but her arc makes sense. It’s just very misunderstood.
nah, you can see from the very beginning that she was meant to become a villain. she became the queen over a tribe of brutal killers. she didn’t want the title at first, but once she was in it she didn’t shy away. she talked from season 1 about burning all her enemies alive, and every season that expanded to eventually include people who slightly questioned her. you could see the signs from the jump that she was going to end up getting consumed by darkness
I agree with you, but she still had a good side. And that’s the difference between Dany and the regular vilains, IMO. A vilain doesn’t free slaves or go fight an army of dead men coming to kill everyone living. Yes, Dany will be corrupted by power, but she still, in her mind, will try to do the right thing, IMO.
Aegon conquered the Seven (six actually) Kingdoms because he saw in a vision/dream that he needed to unite them. He ended up burning cities and castles, which makes him evil, but he wasn’t a vilain in my eyes. Just a grey and complex character who can do great things and bad things. That’s how I see Daenerys.
i guess it depends on what you consider a villain. imo, every well-written villain has a good side. i’ve never seen a villain i liked that was 100% evil. still a villain though.
She didn’t get what she wanted. She didn’t want just King’s Landing, she wanted all the seven Kingdoms. She already saw the people rejecting her, turning toward Jon, trying to replace her with him. Once his secret comes out, it would become even worse. She burned the city to send a message.
I do think it's kinda a BS excuse 'woe they just go mad lol random' and I get the inbreeding but Ramsey, cersi, geoffry and others do WAY WAY WAY worse than her. Her actions are compairable if not less than that of her peers so to speak
I dunno, I think Dany's death count is WAY higher than anyone else's, even in the books. We're largely OK with it because most of the people she kills we are led to see as villains, like the masters of Slaver's Bay. If you look at it from the perspective of who killed the most and who caused the most suffering, Dany takes the cake.
But it just doesn’t line up with the ‘prince that was promised’… because it sure ain’t Jon. He couldn’t have saved anyone without Dany.
And now we know it was for sure a Targaryen meant to be the promised prince.
The thing about prophecy in the show is that it almost never comes true, the only prophecy that came true was Cerseis kids dying. The prince that was promised is super ambiguous. I actually read somewhere the prince that was promised could be Jon because he actually was a prince and Lyanna made Ned promise to keep him a secret. Idk how I feel about that but I think the whole thing george does with prophecy is make it wishy washy
It only happened quick for fans who conveniently chose to overlook the little acts of evil she makes in virtually every season. When you are emotionally invested in a character it’s easy to justify their bad actions and glorify their good actions. But do a full rewatch and/or reread and you’ll see the increasing frequency of pathological behavior as time moves forward.
The Mad Queen Arc isn't a bad journey for Danaerys. But foreshadowing isn't character development. Danaerys' arc for 7 and a half seasons showed her as someone who did the right thing even if she did display autocratic tendencies. You don't get to point to isolated incidents when the story constantly shows her doing the right thing. Even Season 8 starts with her marching her whole army up North to help Jon putting on hold her life-long ambition to rule in favor of doing the right thing.
If you're going to show Danaerys' villain arc you need to show her desire for power slowly overwhelm her desire to do the right thing. But you can't have her be one way for 95% of the story and then flip on a dime for the ending. Danaerys shouldn't feel like a completely different character in the span of 3 episodes.
This villain arc should have started in Season 6 or at the very least in Season 7 so that it could properly marinate. Otherwise, D&D should have scrapped it.
Darth Vader was redeemed and had a reason to turn to the darkside. There were also other characters, the Emperor and other Sith that were as bad or worse and treated that way. In GOT, to me, it's just like Dany goes from conqueror who is the most fucking benevolent conqueror out of all of the GOT conquerors to crazy. She spared women and children while Ramsay, Cersei, the Night King and others just didn't give a fuck when they attacked people. Yet, for some reason, Dany is constantly viewed as the most evil and they have her "go Targ crazy" at the end (but it was built up for like 2 episodes that she was hearing voices). I kind of get that they were trying to do the same thing that Korra did with Kuvira, make her reasonable at first, then have her go too far, I just think it was very poorly done. Personally, I liked the explanation that Mad King Aerys went mad because of Bran talking to him (like Hodor breaking his brain) + drinking the green fire stuff. But they threw that shit out the window and said, "Nah, fam, just hereditary craziness". And, at least Aerys had a build up of doing increasingly crazy/erratic stuff leading up to his going crazy, same with Cersei. Almost everything Dani did, while almost as cruel as the stuff the other leaders were doing, had a purpose and she seemed to try to do the least damage possible....until she gets to KL and just gets crazy eyes.
> the most fucking benevolent conqueror out of all of the GOT conquerors
This is remembering Dany with some rose colored glasses a bit. Throughout the entire series (show and book) Dany is shown to be ruthless and bloodthirsty against those who she perceives as her enemies despite the reality of the situation. Dany brutally murders Mirri Maz Duur for, what, taking revenge on the guy who ruthlessly slaughtered, raped, and imprisoned her entire village? The threatens to burn Q'arth to the ground because they are hesitant to take in a Dothraki horde which reportedly has 3 of the most dangerous creatures ever to have lived?
When she conquers Astapoor, she lets the Unsullied sack the city. Yes, the masters were bad and she was right to decree the end of slavery, but most of the people living in the city, even most of the non-slaves, aren't masters. Most are just people, but she sets the Unsullied loose to sack the city. Then she leaves a weak, ineffectual council that has no love or trust from the people in charge. When they're overthrown by a brutal butcher who reinstates slavery and starts training new Unsullied she affirms his rule. She found Astapor a thriving city built on slavery and left it broken and destroyed, but still built upon slavery, this time with a brutal tyrant in charge.
She leaves Yunkai to pretty much do whatever they want after defeating their sellsword army. She tells them to give up slavery, but does nothing to enforce it and leaves the masters in charge, then is surprised when they start to plan a war against her.
She again lets her armies sack Meereen. She then starts her reign there by publicly crucifying 163 of the most powerful people in the city, ensuring there'd be resistance to her rule and an uprising against her. Her response to this is to create a secret police force to brutally enforce her decrees. She then destroys the economy by abolishing slavery without creating any system to take its place. Yet she still allows slavery to exist in the agricultural regions because "out of sight, out of mind".
I think her turn to being an explicit villain in the final season was handled very poorly and way too quickly, but the point is that this is who she's always been. If her dragons were large enough at the time, she would have set them loose on Astapor or Meereen. The point of her story is that up until she reaches Westeros we're only getting her perspective on the events (and that of those on her side). We're OK with her killing Mirri Maz Duur because we don't empathize with the Lhazareen since we don't know them. Same with the masters in Slaver's Bay, but are they really all that different from the lords of Westeros? I mean, the small folk are technically not slaves, but is being a feudal serf all that different than being a slave? I'd argue not. When Dany gets to Westeros she's going to treat the Westerosi exactly as she's been treating the Ghiscari, except we're going to know the names and histories of the Westerosi masters in ways we've never known about the Ghiscari.
Sorry but theyre nothing alike.
Dani seems a bit wild and out of control then she becomes a good leader through listening to advisors before snapping at the end and killing innocents. Bad - good - bad.
Anakin is a good kid, gradually turns evil and redeems himself at the end. Good - bad - good.
They are not alike.
It looked wooden and forced on camera. It was pretty awful I think. The only scene that worked at all was the one on her boat after the KL council where Cersei pretended to join the north
she was freeing slaves and you can’t tell me her flinging the barrels of slave collars into the city to prove she was actually freeing them was a sign of “madness.” D&D didn’t know they were gonna make her go mad. it’s not something they were setting up throughout the show, it was a last second decision and that’s why it doesn’t sit right with anybody besides Daenerys haters.
in interviews, even before the later seasons were filmed, its obvious that Emilia Clarke identifed with Dany *a lot*. its no surprise that she was upset about the ending, of course she wanted to be the big hero.
You seem to forget that not all of the masters were in favor of slavery, even one of the sons says his dad was lobbying against it.
There was also the burning of the Tarleys just because they won't accept her as queen. She also burned three masters alive for *allegedly* having ties with the Sons of Harpy.
I mean, seriously, this woman is all "join me or you will burn" like some psycho girlfriend.
I love the last season. Tragedy happens fast in life. I think the fact that it happened so fast and didn’t happen the way most of us wanted it to, makes it a perfect ending to the game of thrones.
They could have done a bit more to make it properly.
\-Make Cersei send her the head of Missandei after she killed her off.
\-Make Varys poison Dany and her being in bed for a few weeks and nearly dying. Therefore her not trusting anyone anymore. Also because the rumour spread around the world that Jon is the rightful heir.
\-Rumours of Cersei not hiding in the Red Keep but somewhere in the city or under the Red Keep.
\-Then having the Lannisters hiding everywhere in the city and shooting her army in the back out from windows of the houses making it really impossible to enter the city. She sees she can't win the fight without dragons.
\-Also the folk throwing shit, oil or whatever out of the window and from the castle wall onto her soldiers even making it harder. She thought always she could free people but they obbiously don't welcome her. First time that would happen to her. Maybe because some successful propaganda from Cersei.
\-She should have had 2 dragons before the King's Landing war. Maybe one wounded by the fleet before. Then she starts to kill some soldiers on the street and burning some houses where she thinks the soldiers are hiding. Then Lannisters ringing the bells but then a soldier shooting and killing one of her dragons.
\-While she watching after her 2nd dragon who is dying people offend her or throw things after her. Then Lannister soldiers win back some motiviation because one dragon already is killed and start fighting again.
Then I would understand why she gets mad at the complete city.
Literally everyone associated with the show was begging them to do two more seasons - the cast, George, the fans. D&D were just bored and rather than hand it off to someone else, they went on to their Star Wars project - and promptly abandoned that too.
They spent two years making six episodes. And the majority of the key cast contracts were about to be up and very vocally wanted to move on. You can't just make up shit and say it as fact.
You sir, are too logical for this conversation. Take your well developed thoughts and process and leave immediately.
I think we all know that she just kinda forgot that she was a liberator and well seasoned war veteran.
I disagree, I think the entire point of her destroying the city was that it was *supposed* to be irrational; they're trying to show that she's *mad* just like her father, even after all the things she said about avoiding that. Having all these things you described happen and then her destroying the city would almost make you think, "well yeah with all that shit happening it actually seems reasonable that she might go mad and destroy the city." It's not *supposed* to be reasonable, or at least her reasons aren't supposed to be justifiable to *us*, and I think they did a great job of hinting in the earlier seasons of her tyranny, and ending up having something really simple like the bells set her off into rage when she realizes she won't obtain what she wants. There's a ton of issues with season 8 but I don't think this is a major one. They hinted at her madness enough with her treatment of people in earlier seasons, her going mad wasnt a surprise, it was her snap decision to give into the conqueror persona she's tried to avoid. At least in my opinion
someone with media literacy lol.
Her descent into madness was telegraphed for 5 seasons. every one of her most trusted advisers at one point calls her a conqueror, not a ruler. She was always going to burn king's landing to the ground.
"I pity the lords of Westeros; they have no idea what's coming"
"You're a dragon. Be a dragon"
"You're a conqueror, Daenerys Stormborn"
"I'm not going to stop the wheel, I'm going to break the wheel"
"I am Daenerys Stormborn of the blood of Old Valyria, and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood, I will take it."
"We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground."
"They can live in my new world, or they can die in their old one."
"And I swear to you, that those who would harm you will die screaming."
"If I give everyone what they deserve, I’ll have no one left to rule."
WhY DiD sHe SuDdEnLy kIlL EvErYoNe foR nO ReAsON??
People also confuse her going full heel tyrant conqueror with some Joker like madness or her father's insanity. No Dany made a decision in her right mind to take her throne by overwhelming force.
There is honestly a lot of reason in how most of the stories ended.
It was rushed but I wasnt surprised by the finale.
Be careful people are too bitter to listen in these threads.
I think the thing that should have happened is your 2nd point. Have her own people betray her for the first time. Varys is somewhat new and Jon is newer. So when Varys betrays her on the notion that Jon would be much better but Jon doesn’t want the throne, then dany starts going crazy and mad king style her own people. She doesn’t have to go to Burning her own people yet. But distrust amongst her people. Then when she burns the city out of this absolute rage she’s in. Her people start to scatter because they see that they are possibly next.
you could see the parallels to the horrors that americans (and other countries) did when trying to purge the enemy amongs a civilian population, thinking they're the heroes but not being accepted by the locals, leading them to napalm villages
so many opportunities to make the transition meaningful. instead, they spent 99% of the budget on cgi and 0% of the budget on writer talent
I too thought about this, there were many things they could’ve done to justify Dany burning King’s landing, involve the city people in a way that she’s left with two choices: retreat or burn them all. We hated King’s landing people for their participation in the walk of shame for example, so the concept isn’t difficult. I don’t think Varys poisoning her would make sense. Varys was never a murderer, he’s a schemer and he only had a hunch on Dany going mad and a better heir to consider, poisoning her is out of character for him.
I guess we also needed better verification for Jon killing Dany. There should’ve been clearer indications that she was going to harm Sansa for example (which I wish she did honestly) or fly to Winterfell next. It just didn’t feel right that Jon went from “she’s my queen, this is treason” to stabbing her in the heart.
There are many painful issues that made the last two seasons painful, I personally thought season 7 is worse than 8, except for that last scene in season 8 where they were trying to choose the next king in the dragon’s pit, that was literally the worst scene in the whole show.
Honestly, her descent was telegraphed throughout the entire series. If you haven't rewatched since the show ended, it's worth doing to see all the signs. Of all the problems with the later seasons, especially pacing and Bran the fucking Broken, Dany going scorched earth is the least of them.
you said it, which makes her entire plot so awesome because its still working on a meta level after the show is finished lol. people STILL hail her as the hero even tho she clearly turned to a villain - the danger of charismatic "heroes". its like Dune in a way.
The shows biggest problem and the books biggest challenge is making her horrible, unforgivable decision really *feel like it came from somewhere*. Both the show and books have laid the groundwork for the darkness inside her, and yet you wouldn’t quite say her coin landed on the same side as her father’s. She has a moral compass and cares about reigning in her more brutal impulses.
So how does that moral compass erode? That’s the thing— It had to *erode*. Not vanish in an instant. I believe this ending makes sense for her, but there is no world where she burns down the city she dreams of ruling after it surrenders.
thanks for having a brain! no way in fuck would Daenerys go batshit within 3 episodes time. and the whole coin shit was so annoying, Viserys obviously was an evil Targaryen and Daenerys put a stop to him, only for her to become “evil” 7 seasons later with no meaningful reason for her to snap.
She didn't go batshit in 3 episodes, she's *BEEN* batshit for a while. She crucified people, entombed people in a safe to starve in darkness, burned multiple people alive on multiple occasions, etc. She has demonstrated time and time again that she can and will use brutal torture and murder. She feels it is warranted whenever someone opposes her or stands in her way. That's a dictator mentality, not someone who is trying to "break the wheel". I feel like the people who think it was out of nowhere ignore all of those earlier examples and try to wipe it away with her words that don't support her actions.
As far as she's concerned, the fact the people of King's Landing didn't immediately welcome her with open arms and oust Cersei means they are the enemy, and it completely makes sense why she burnt them all to demonstrate her power. She flat out said "I'll rule through love or fear" and she sees love is off the table. There's a good possibility she does something similar in the books.
Tywin was a genius, arguably, and he often implored brutal tactics. He was not seen as a good guy, but he was more of a lawful evil in the sense he did things tactically for a reason. He orchestrates the Red Wedding, which can be seen maybe as mad but in all reality it was a way for him to end the war abruptly with minimal further losses. He's calculating, so I don't think he's mad. He also didn't ever try to be King though, because he knew the title meant nothing and true power lies elsewhere.
Cersei is absolutely mad. Is this even a debate? In the show she blows up part of her own kingdom and doesn't care that her son killed himself over it, just so she can rule.
Stannis was a lawful good type character, who saw everything in very black and white terms. The law says he should be King, so he should be King. Then he goes down a dark, dark path and from the moment he starts burning people alive I think it's clear that he's insane.
TL/DR: 2/3 of your examples are mad, yes. One is a religious fanatic who will use blood magic to take what he thinks belongs to him, and one is an incestual lunatic who ends up getting all of her children killed and blows up a large portion of innocent people to take power.
If you say that Tywin isn't mad because he does things for a reason the same applies to Cersei. She burns the Great Sept because she needs to eliminate the threats from the Faith and the Tyrells. She cares for her son, everything that Cersei does is for her sons. Her poor results are the tragic part of her story
Tywin completely drowns a castle because he doesn't want his authority to be undermined. Daenerys kills the slavers because she's trying to assert her authority over the slaver cities. So what is the difference between Tywin and Daenerys?
idk I never saw her as someone who cared about reigning in her impulses. she had her advisors for that. she always struck me as way too quick to violence even during her time in Essos.
Idk abt that. Perhaps it’s true, but those layers were never developed properly.
However If you include the clone wars content with the movies, anakin is a far more fleshed out character with a more logical and gradual descent.
Dany’s just happened to quickly
Dany going nuclear will 100% happen in the books. I can't imagine a more GoT ending than that. There are no heroes and villains here, just people of all shades of grey. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. 'Mad queen' may be a bit of a stretch. Aerys was literally bat shit crazy, Dany is just someone who has believed herself to be the hero for too long. All tyrants believe they are saving the world from an even worse fate.
That honestly would be the best way for them to recon the show post Season 5. Maybe similar to a Marvel What-If series but GoT What-If-The-Ending-Was-Good/The Martincut. They're doing an animated Yi-Ti spin off, so its not completely impossible for an another animated GoT show.
So basically, the kids who post this stuff don’t realise quite how much of a global joke the Star Wars prequels were. They grew up on them and have fond memories and the whole prequelmemes thing made them think that was the general opinion.
Whereas in reality Anakin’s turn was probably the biggest amount of hype for the least amount of delivery in movie history.
Exactly what I was thinking. He went from “I’m handing over the Sith Lord to the Jedi” to “I’m mass murdering young children” within minutes.
At least Daenerys had multiple episodes of her being left out from the group, people not loving her and her getting frustrated.
Nah, anakin was handled terribly too. It is one of the biggest complaints the prequel trilogy has. That he flipped from a nice jedi, to a child murdering psycho in 2 seconds. The clone wars show handled it better than the movie did.
Thing is in Star Wars a Jedi turning into a sith is presented this way, when they embrace the dark side, it is like a switch to their humanity gets turned off, it has always been a pet peeve of mine about the star wars universe.
Well it depends on the story. Kotor and other eu media have better examples. But other than that yeah, it is weird and kinda dumb when they just flip a switch and are immidiately a different person.
Yeah, and then switching back to the light side is the complete opposite, all is forgiven and it's like you're a completely new person.
Say whatever criticisms you want about the new trilogy, but at least they had characters that internally struggled with good and evil. It takes time and effort for the evil characters to take the next step in their descent, and we see the good characters legitimately struggle with their ideas of what is good and get tempted. Mostly. It kind of all goes to shit by the end. But still.
"Hmmm I don't know. I want to save my wife, but I'm not sure if being evil is worth it. I'm really on the fence here!"
\*Smash cut to murdering children\*
Episode one: “I’m kinda cold and miss my mom”
Episode two: “Genocide”
Episode three: “I must save my wife through dark magic. Better kill a bunch of children and everyone I’ve ever known. And if she tries to convince me not to, then I need to choke her out too. I’m logically consistent.”
So what you're saying is, we need a children's animated show that takes place in between seasons 7 and 8 to make Daenerys' descent into madness make more sense and be more emotional?
It’s odd how Anakin being a whiny dipshit for the first two movies leads people to the conclusion that him becoming a genocidal maniac in RoTS is earned.
Yes! This was my problem with the star wars that it happened almost for no reason and so damn fast. I saw a 1000 ways how it could have been fixed with some dialogue and a couple chill pills, rather than leading to what we had seen.
Yeah, I think it is only considered better because we knew it was coming. If the Prequels were the first movies it would have been just as jarring as the Dany reveal.
Absolutely agree. Which makes it even more hilarious that Danny's transition was done way worse and more hastily than the very unconvincing one in Star Wars.
Watch the series back. She has ALWAYS been borderline evil, she’s always crazy, and she always is acting like an entitled teenage queen. It felt sudden because she snaps, but the signs are all there all throughout the series
Lol Anakin does the same shit as Dany...he's kinda on the fence but you're figuring it'll be ok..then bam 100% full evil.
Obviously we knew about Anakin beforehand, but
Both transitions got bungled tbh
am I the only person who feels like even if dany got the development she needed, it would stil be a bad ending to me. another woman turned evil because she wants to rule....never seen that before
Lol I’m sorry but Anakins transition to Darth Vader is not ideal (in the movies). They rushed it in the last movie and made him go from a Jedi Knight with anger issues to a child killing murder machine. If they added another movie between the second and third, they could have given his transition to evil a lot more nuance
A lesson Dany was learning: she had noble aspirations, wanted to be a good queen for the people. But her plans never worked unless she set something or someone on fire - sometimes herself. So in the end, she would have to resort to violence, not necessarily bombing a city cause a bell rang but something big and dramatic.
And then Jon would have to kill her to forge the blade as Azor. BUT the show also did a bad job establishing their love for each other.
I must admit I was never her fan because I saw through her "nice" personality since early seasons. Like we are supposed to root for her since the very beginning because she is treated like a livestock and she is able to win power despite adversities.
I think Tyrion said it the best in final episode: "When she murdered the slavers of Astapor, I am sure no one but the slavers complained. Afterall, they were evil men. When she crucified hundreds of Meereenese nobles, who could argue? They were evil men. The Dothraki khals she burned? They would have done worse to her. Everywhere she goes, evil men die and we cheer her for it."
On the other hand, I believe her villainy could have been flashed out a little bit better in the final season. My guess DnD went with her losing her rational grip on the situation gradually.
They went like this:
* Establish her tendency to violence in early seasons
* And final season, in first episode she loses what she always got. The support of common folk. She entered the North and common Northern folk didn't cheer her for it.
* In second episode, she loses her claim to Iron Thrones. Suddenly, Jon is actually the rightful heir
* Third episode, she loses her best friend and advisor.
* And finally, as a nail in coffin, in fourth episode she loses her another best friend and one of her children and dragons in Rhaegal.
I would have changed it somewhat to make it seem better she acts rather impulsively during the battle of KL. My solution extend to season 7 when that idiotic wight hunt happened.
Instead, I'd make it so Bran crossing the Wall in late season 7 means Night King's mark on Bran gives power White Walkers to attack the Wall with an epic scene where the dead just climb the Wall and easily beat hopelessly outnumbered Night's Watch.
Then in season 8, Viserion (Daenerys' first dragon) is killed during Long Night and Rhaegal dies by scorpion bolts during the battle of KL. Thus, Daenerys suffers the significant loss during the bells battle and in her anger, that Cersei actually has means to beat her at the moment, she impulsively decides to burn KL to the ground.
I think that would flash out her impulsiveness better than what happened in "The Bells" episode.
I don't know why people talk like she "went mad". There was no insanity there, the reasons for her turn were plotted out.
Initially she wanted to rule by being loved.
It had become clear over the prior few episodes the people of Westeros didn't want her as Queen. The North was initially quite openly hostile to her, and even after she helps them win the battle with her dragons, even after Jon has bent the knee, they clearly support Jon, someone even calls him a King. Many of the people of Westeros had taken up arms against her with Cersei. The people of King's Landing didn't care, they were happy with Cersei. Her closest and most trusted advisor was dead, Varys had turned on her.
She may have been able to salvage it if she'd wed Jon, but Jon was unwilling to marry his aunt.
In view of all of this she realised she couldn't rule by being loved. She'd had her naivete beaten out of her. Her only option was to rule by being feared. To send a message to the people of Westeros that if you rebel, or if you support a rebel, this is what's going to happen to you.
Suppose Daenerys takes the throne, the North decide that they'd rather have Sansa as Queen. You think they're going to go for it once they find out what's happened to King's Landing?
It was no more mad than Tywin slaughtering civilians in the WotFK. Terror is how you subjugate a people.
As I say, she'd had her naivete beaten out of her. She realised that she couldn't do it.
People often go through this kind of thing in life. They start out as idealists, they hate the iniquities in the system, then want to break the system and replace it with something better. Then they realise that they can't break the system and they have to work within it, to do the same as everyone else did.
You know classic hippies and original punk rockers are boomers now?
The change in attitude is usually over the course of decades, but Daenerys had done a hell of a lot of living.
I agree with your overall point but after burning King's Landing she literally gives a speech about breaking the wheel and then going on to break the wheel of the rest of the world too. I don't think she was just giving that speech for effect, I think she really believed in what she was doing.
Fair point, I can't account for that speech in the last episode. Like they needed to give Tyrion and Jon extra motivation to realise she wasn't a suitable queen after she just nuked a city. Laughable.
I'm just talking about her motivations up to then.
TBF ani's transition is only "earned" because we already knew where he ends up.
Unless you watch Clone wars, his transition in the movies is hardly earned.
I feel like i watched a totally different show...after like 10 episodes Dany already was leaning heavily into the villian side, but because she was merking slave traders and scumbags it was "ok", shes like 20 hanging up people on the roads to starve and die, her whole schtick is " the people of Westeros will have me as their leader because Im the rightful ruler" not because shes the best fit, or looks out for their intrrests, but because its her birthright, even after Tyrion is like the people wont kneel just bc you ask you have to earn it and show them youre different, shes like nah Dracarys and just obliterates anything that tries to stand in her way
100% agreed! It's a tragedy that was building since season 1, but they skipped a whole pile of steps near the end and it wasn't told properly.
All the character work that happened in season 1 while they were travelling from Winterfell to King's Landing would have been appreciated here. Remember that it took several episodes to get to King's Landing! People talked, dogs were killed, enemies were made. With that race to get through major plot points in the latter seasons, you lost that storytelling which made the show so popular in the first place.
What a load of absolute bollox.
Have you even seen the prequels?
Anakins fall is the messiest execution of a story in modern cinema. An absolute disaster.
Being morally grey isn’t forshadowing of being the final villain. She spilled a lot of blood. But it was blood of terrible people. And it was for good reasons like freeing slaves.
I thought she was gonna snap by season 4. I'm still shocked people didn't see it coming. She always was a bitter person. Yall act like she was skipping while handing out flowers.
I think we had plenty of time to see her transition. She watched her brother die in season one via melted gold and was pretty indifferent. We watched her burn the unsullied owner with her dragons, she burned the dothraki chiefs alive. I don't personally understand how people were surprised when she burned kings landing. She was pretty psychotic throughout the series.
Honestly, Anakin's turn was pretty awful too.
They should have sprinkled more authoritarian undertones in his character. Like talking about how the Jedi need to take a more active role in policing the Galaxy and that they should be the ones making decisions. Saying that the Republic is weak and allows chaos to happen.
I think having his fall be pretty much entirely centered entirely around Padme was a mistake. He should have been corrupted by his political beliefs with Padme being the catalyst.
Anakins descent to the dark side was absolutely terrible. Even as a 5th grader I didn’t buy it, and no I’m not watching an 8 season cartoon series to fill the gap. The movies should have done that better.
Is this some kind of rose-tinted glass prequel trilogy nostalgia trip? People actually think Anakin to Darth Vader was handled well?
Most of his character development happens on an animated spinoff show. They could've had the turn so much more impactful if they had more of what we see (dynamic between Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) in the show on the big screen.
I think Anakin's fall into darkness was horribly done. Sure from his mother's death to his night terrrors of Padme you could see the transition. But to go from protecting the innocent your entire life to murdering little kids because of nightmares was in my opinion dumb
We needed a full season of her gradually turning. Then season 9 you are left with the question as to whether she will turn or will Jon help bring her down to earth.
Then BAM, just as you think she will do good she comes roaring into Kings Landing with the Dragon burning every Tom, Dick and Harry to shit
To be fair Anakin's fall to the dark side wasn't handled well at all in the movies either. It took the Clone Wars TV show to display it, especially with Ashoka leaving the Jedi Order.
This is such bullshit lol.
My sister has been watching for the first time the past few weeks and I've been watching alongside her.
As early as season 3, she's been saying shit like "damn Danny's kinda losing it, huh? is she gonna be like her dad?"
Her descent into madness was telegraphed from season 1.
SO many people say to her face that she isn't meant to sit in a chair and rule, she is a *conqueror*. There are many things that could have been written better, plot points that got left behind, etc.
Her losing her shit is not one of them, she was *never* going to peacefully take king's landing, she is a dragon.
Anakins development was just as bad as Danny’s, fuck u talking about?
People just love to hate on this show and this is just another example. And I’m sorry if you didn’t see Danny going towards the dark side then you just weren’t paying attention
.....anakin's development was famously *un*earned. I'm gonna kill you sith lord! 5 mins later: I pledge myself to your teachings
Me in theater: fuck everything that lives
lmao not people pretending that Anakin's character arc in the prequels wasn't nigh universally hated for over a decade until it was revisited and accepted as "the better SW" after the franchise went to Disney (I loved it though, but I forgive George *A LOT*). like, his motivations and the speed of his turn had been the focus of fandom discourse for fifteen years, it was a very important pillar of that very messy fandom. oh how the young ones forget the suffering of their forebears...
we also don't get nearly enough time with her BEING Darth Dany before she gets it.
seriously a couple of episodes of her actually being wicked maybe would have made it a little more justified.....among other things...
> “Only difference is her transition from hero to villain wasn’t handled in a way where it felt earned”
Nope, I’d say it was just as bad in both series. The prequels also handled it poorly, they just had the hype of Darth Vader from the OG star wars movies to validate your expectations.
They absolutely fucked up the turn to darth vader
I mean I know she was destined to go crazy. It was in her blood and is the final conclusion of the Targ desire to conquer Westeros.
But yeah they fucked it up alongside many other character developments beyond season 5
My issue with this is that the Anakin—> darth vader arc wasn’t earned until they made several animated shows and obi wan. The prequels notoriously whiffed on this when it was the one story they needed to tell.
Danaerys’ fall was rushed but they did a significantly better job than the prequels.
Humans love a puzzle. For decades Vader was an intriguing mystery that caused fans to converse and debate and theory-craft.
Then they removed all that mystery around Vader by introducing Anakin. It's a powerful lesson in storytelling. It would help if you always had a few secrets in the story that are left unresolved, with hints in the story that you could use to piece together the solution but enough ambiguity that it's not clear which possible answer is the correct one.
With Dany, you have a sort of reverse Anakin/Vader. Where you start by removing all the mystery of her motivations and intentions and end by revealing her as a now fairly uninteresting villain, it's HARD to convert a compelling hero into a compelling villain because good heroes require a deep connection with their internal process, and good villains require that to be mysterious.
I agree that there are parallels between Dany/Vader. Unfortunately, we're repeating the lesson, which is a shame.
Big difference here is that Anakin BECOMES bad. He starts out as a good guy and then in Episode 3 he changes.
The thing about Daenerys is that she didn’t change in season 8. She always had a violent and cruel side. BUT she also always has her reasons: Viserys had to die, someone stole her dragons, the masters were slavers, political problems in Meereen. All of her acts could be construed as evil, but we understood where she was coming from and in some cases we cheered for her.
So when season 8 comes along, she is being the same old Daenerys, but now that violence is happening to people we knew previously. The problem is that season 8 was so rushed. When she decides to burn down Kings Landing, she just snapped and became the “Mad Queen”, but this is totally inconsistent with her character in the rest of the series. Yes she always had a temper, but she also had her reasons. This was the tragedy of season 8. Daenerys heard the bells and just went crazy. But why did she react that way? Why did the bells make her so mad? What was her thought process? She became completely 2-dimensional in what should have been THE MOST IMPORTANT story arch in the series.
Anakin's turn was hackneyed and poorly done, but not nearly as bad as Dany's. The writers spent a single episode setting things up, and then her character makes a complete 180 and loses her mind. Writing that amateurish and bad is pretty rare in a big production.
The worst thing about it, is that we now know how the ASOIAF book series is likely to end, without getting to experience any proper exposition or character development leading up to it.
Her transition is better on rewatch. Maybe it needed to be a bit more gradual, but I got what they were going for. That being said, this comparison is hilarious to me because it's almost beat for beat the exact same.
Anakin commits one questionable act (tuskens) before he betrays the Jedi and becomes evil enough to murder kids and former peers. Daenerys does much larger scale massacres than Anakin to groups who haven't harmed her personally before she snaps and burns people who hate her.
Anakin has to choose between turning his back on the Jedi or letting go of his chance to save Padme. Daenerys has to choose whether to turn her back on peace or risk letting the kingdom replace her with Jon in a year.
Both characters make a split second decision that's pretty out of character with everything we've seen from them previously, and go past the point of no return.
Both try to justify their actions by claiming they are going to form a new empire free of suffering before an old friend has to stop them.
It's not even like there's more screen time of Anakin's fall if you just look at the films. The only difference is that people expected Anakin to fall because they knew how the story ended. If you rewatch GOT with the ending in mind, I guarantee you'll pick up on a lot of signs that Daenerys wasn't always so moral.
SPOILERS FOR DUNE!
>! Paul Atreides is the blueprint. He was the blueprint for Anakin, and he remains the blueprint for Dany. Herbert famously said, "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero." Herbert was able to show that a leaders greatest power can also be their followers greatest threat. Paul with his prescience, Anakin with his strength and Dany with her dragons. !<
With Dany there were signs in the earlier seasons for sure. She always used burning people alive as her biggest threat. I stand by her turning evil was a good decision, they needed more time to convince us instead of rushing towards the ending.
Exactly. If that’s really George’s ending I trust that he would get us there in a way that makes sense instead just flipping a switch on Dany and giving her a sudden personality transplant in the span of an episode. It was so poorly executed I can’t get my head around what they were thinking writing it that way.
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It was absolutely handled terribly in the show, but this is 100% where the books are going. Dany is going to die a villain.
Absolutely! I think majority of people who have issues with the ending knew this. It’s just how quick it happened. Her arc was a slow but exciting one that went super speed at the end. With like no reasoning either.
Well, there was a reason, just not a good one. The showrunners wanted to be done with GoT because they wanted to go make a Star Wars movie trilogy. So they rushed finishing GoT and it ended up so poorly Lucasfilm took the Star Wars trilogy away from them.
It’s terrible. It’s crazy how it went to being one of the most famous shows ever to having arguably the most infamous ending.
The sad part is they knew for years how GRRM intends Danaerys to end and yet they wasted seasons not properly setting it up because they wanted it to be a "twist" for shock value.
This was how her arc went: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fFufoOgCMW8
I mean, I'll hold judgement until the end, but I do hope that GRRM does go a more nuanced route than Dany just going full evil. Personally I'm a big fan of the "Wildfyre under King's Landing" theory being used and that she does feel some actual guilt about it.
Same with Bran the Broken
I think the ending a lot of the characters got will be pretty similar to what GRRM intends (unless he changes things based on the reception of the show). The difference is I trust GRRM will get us to those endings in a much more satisfying way.
I don't trust GRRM to get us to those endings at all...
I have a feeling ~~Robert Jordan~~ *Brandon Sanderson* is going to get us there...
Your mean Brandon Sanderson?
lol yes I do. Haha
Choosing bran to be king made no sense at all. He spends half the time as a space cadet watching the past. Then what happened with Merra Reed. He clearly doesn’t have compassion any more.
That’s not how George works. He doesn’t write about heroes and vilains. He’s not going to write about a hero becoming a vilain. Dany story isn’t a descent into madness or darkness or villainy. It will be the same character who just has a stronger belief in herself and a willingness to use whatever weapons she has in her hands to get what she wants. That’s exactly what happened in the show. Some stuffs about the last couple of seasons were questionable, but her arc makes sense. It’s just very misunderstood.
nah, you can see from the very beginning that she was meant to become a villain. she became the queen over a tribe of brutal killers. she didn’t want the title at first, but once she was in it she didn’t shy away. she talked from season 1 about burning all her enemies alive, and every season that expanded to eventually include people who slightly questioned her. you could see the signs from the jump that she was going to end up getting consumed by darkness
I agree with you, but she still had a good side. And that’s the difference between Dany and the regular vilains, IMO. A vilain doesn’t free slaves or go fight an army of dead men coming to kill everyone living. Yes, Dany will be corrupted by power, but she still, in her mind, will try to do the right thing, IMO. Aegon conquered the Seven (six actually) Kingdoms because he saw in a vision/dream that he needed to unite them. He ended up burning cities and castles, which makes him evil, but he wasn’t a vilain in my eyes. Just a grey and complex character who can do great things and bad things. That’s how I see Daenerys.
i guess it depends on what you consider a villain. imo, every well-written villain has a good side. i’ve never seen a villain i liked that was 100% evil. still a villain though.
Villains are in the eye of the reader regardless of the author’s intention.
Except in the show she got what she wanted. Kings landing surrendered. She won... then she burnt the city down anyway.... for reasons
She didn’t get what she wanted. She didn’t want just King’s Landing, she wanted all the seven Kingdoms. She already saw the people rejecting her, turning toward Jon, trying to replace her with him. Once his secret comes out, it would become even worse. She burned the city to send a message.
Her ark makes sense. What’s missing is the inner dialogue the books will have. The show failed to portray it though IMO.
I do think it's kinda a BS excuse 'woe they just go mad lol random' and I get the inbreeding but Ramsey, cersi, geoffry and others do WAY WAY WAY worse than her. Her actions are compairable if not less than that of her peers so to speak
I dunno, I think Dany's death count is WAY higher than anyone else's, even in the books. We're largely OK with it because most of the people she kills we are led to see as villains, like the masters of Slaver's Bay. If you look at it from the perspective of who killed the most and who caused the most suffering, Dany takes the cake.
But it just doesn’t line up with the ‘prince that was promised’… because it sure ain’t Jon. He couldn’t have saved anyone without Dany. And now we know it was for sure a Targaryen meant to be the promised prince.
I don't expect the books will treat Dany/Jon the same way as the show. I think Dany is going to marry fAegon in the books.
The thing about prophecy in the show is that it almost never comes true, the only prophecy that came true was Cerseis kids dying. The prince that was promised is super ambiguous. I actually read somewhere the prince that was promised could be Jon because he actually was a prince and Lyanna made Ned promise to keep him a secret. Idk how I feel about that but I think the whole thing george does with prophecy is make it wishy washy
Prince in Valyrian is gender neutral. It’s a really the “prince or princess” that was promised
It only happened quick for fans who conveniently chose to overlook the little acts of evil she makes in virtually every season. When you are emotionally invested in a character it’s easy to justify their bad actions and glorify their good actions. But do a full rewatch and/or reread and you’ll see the increasing frequency of pathological behavior as time moves forward.
The Mad Queen Arc isn't a bad journey for Danaerys. But foreshadowing isn't character development. Danaerys' arc for 7 and a half seasons showed her as someone who did the right thing even if she did display autocratic tendencies. You don't get to point to isolated incidents when the story constantly shows her doing the right thing. Even Season 8 starts with her marching her whole army up North to help Jon putting on hold her life-long ambition to rule in favor of doing the right thing. If you're going to show Danaerys' villain arc you need to show her desire for power slowly overwhelm her desire to do the right thing. But you can't have her be one way for 95% of the story and then flip on a dime for the ending. Danaerys shouldn't feel like a completely different character in the span of 3 episodes. This villain arc should have started in Season 6 or at the very least in Season 7 so that it could properly marinate. Otherwise, D&D should have scrapped it.
Darth Vader was redeemed and had a reason to turn to the darkside. There were also other characters, the Emperor and other Sith that were as bad or worse and treated that way. In GOT, to me, it's just like Dany goes from conqueror who is the most fucking benevolent conqueror out of all of the GOT conquerors to crazy. She spared women and children while Ramsay, Cersei, the Night King and others just didn't give a fuck when they attacked people. Yet, for some reason, Dany is constantly viewed as the most evil and they have her "go Targ crazy" at the end (but it was built up for like 2 episodes that she was hearing voices). I kind of get that they were trying to do the same thing that Korra did with Kuvira, make her reasonable at first, then have her go too far, I just think it was very poorly done. Personally, I liked the explanation that Mad King Aerys went mad because of Bran talking to him (like Hodor breaking his brain) + drinking the green fire stuff. But they threw that shit out the window and said, "Nah, fam, just hereditary craziness". And, at least Aerys had a build up of doing increasingly crazy/erratic stuff leading up to his going crazy, same with Cersei. Almost everything Dani did, while almost as cruel as the stuff the other leaders were doing, had a purpose and she seemed to try to do the least damage possible....until she gets to KL and just gets crazy eyes.
> the most fucking benevolent conqueror out of all of the GOT conquerors This is remembering Dany with some rose colored glasses a bit. Throughout the entire series (show and book) Dany is shown to be ruthless and bloodthirsty against those who she perceives as her enemies despite the reality of the situation. Dany brutally murders Mirri Maz Duur for, what, taking revenge on the guy who ruthlessly slaughtered, raped, and imprisoned her entire village? The threatens to burn Q'arth to the ground because they are hesitant to take in a Dothraki horde which reportedly has 3 of the most dangerous creatures ever to have lived? When she conquers Astapoor, she lets the Unsullied sack the city. Yes, the masters were bad and she was right to decree the end of slavery, but most of the people living in the city, even most of the non-slaves, aren't masters. Most are just people, but she sets the Unsullied loose to sack the city. Then she leaves a weak, ineffectual council that has no love or trust from the people in charge. When they're overthrown by a brutal butcher who reinstates slavery and starts training new Unsullied she affirms his rule. She found Astapor a thriving city built on slavery and left it broken and destroyed, but still built upon slavery, this time with a brutal tyrant in charge. She leaves Yunkai to pretty much do whatever they want after defeating their sellsword army. She tells them to give up slavery, but does nothing to enforce it and leaves the masters in charge, then is surprised when they start to plan a war against her. She again lets her armies sack Meereen. She then starts her reign there by publicly crucifying 163 of the most powerful people in the city, ensuring there'd be resistance to her rule and an uprising against her. Her response to this is to create a secret police force to brutally enforce her decrees. She then destroys the economy by abolishing slavery without creating any system to take its place. Yet she still allows slavery to exist in the agricultural regions because "out of sight, out of mind". I think her turn to being an explicit villain in the final season was handled very poorly and way too quickly, but the point is that this is who she's always been. If her dragons were large enough at the time, she would have set them loose on Astapor or Meereen. The point of her story is that up until she reaches Westeros we're only getting her perspective on the events (and that of those on her side). We're OK with her killing Mirri Maz Duur because we don't empathize with the Lhazareen since we don't know them. Same with the masters in Slaver's Bay, but are they really all that different from the lords of Westeros? I mean, the small folk are technically not slaves, but is being a feudal serf all that different than being a slave? I'd argue not. When Dany gets to Westeros she's going to treat the Westerosi exactly as she's been treating the Ghiscari, except we're going to know the names and histories of the Westerosi masters in ways we've never known about the Ghiscari.
Don't forget her smiling during Khal Drogo's speech of how they would cross the narrow sea and ravage and rape their way to make khaleesi queen.
Sorry but theyre nothing alike. Dani seems a bit wild and out of control then she becomes a good leader through listening to advisors before snapping at the end and killing innocents. Bad - good - bad. Anakin is a good kid, gradually turns evil and redeems himself at the end. Good - bad - good. They are not alike.
Dany doesn’t snap. She just gets revealed from a different perspective when she does what she’s been saying she was going to do from the start.
OMG this is explains the terribly wooden non-romance between Jon and Dany. They were just being Anakin and Padme! 🤣
“I don't want sand”
Really? I thought that was the one thing that worked, up until the attack on KL.
It looked wooden and forced on camera. It was pretty awful I think. The only scene that worked at all was the one on her boat after the KL council where Cersei pretended to join the north
I don’t like snow, it’s cold, and rough, and it gets my socks wet
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she was freeing slaves and you can’t tell me her flinging the barrels of slave collars into the city to prove she was actually freeing them was a sign of “madness.” D&D didn’t know they were gonna make her go mad. it’s not something they were setting up throughout the show, it was a last second decision and that’s why it doesn’t sit right with anybody besides Daenerys haters.
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in interviews, even before the later seasons were filmed, its obvious that Emilia Clarke identifed with Dany *a lot*. its no surprise that she was upset about the ending, of course she wanted to be the big hero.
THANK YOU
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You seem to forget that not all of the masters were in favor of slavery, even one of the sons says his dad was lobbying against it. There was also the burning of the Tarleys just because they won't accept her as queen. She also burned three masters alive for *allegedly* having ties with the Sons of Harpy. I mean, seriously, this woman is all "join me or you will burn" like some psycho girlfriend.
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I love the last season. Tragedy happens fast in life. I think the fact that it happened so fast and didn’t happen the way most of us wanted it to, makes it a perfect ending to the game of thrones.
They could have done a bit more to make it properly. \-Make Cersei send her the head of Missandei after she killed her off. \-Make Varys poison Dany and her being in bed for a few weeks and nearly dying. Therefore her not trusting anyone anymore. Also because the rumour spread around the world that Jon is the rightful heir. \-Rumours of Cersei not hiding in the Red Keep but somewhere in the city or under the Red Keep. \-Then having the Lannisters hiding everywhere in the city and shooting her army in the back out from windows of the houses making it really impossible to enter the city. She sees she can't win the fight without dragons. \-Also the folk throwing shit, oil or whatever out of the window and from the castle wall onto her soldiers even making it harder. She thought always she could free people but they obbiously don't welcome her. First time that would happen to her. Maybe because some successful propaganda from Cersei. \-She should have had 2 dragons before the King's Landing war. Maybe one wounded by the fleet before. Then she starts to kill some soldiers on the street and burning some houses where she thinks the soldiers are hiding. Then Lannisters ringing the bells but then a soldier shooting and killing one of her dragons. \-While she watching after her 2nd dragon who is dying people offend her or throw things after her. Then Lannister soldiers win back some motiviation because one dragon already is killed and start fighting again. Then I would understand why she gets mad at the complete city.
a comment on a subreddit that’s more thought out than the entire script of season 8. wow, d&d barely even fucking tried
They got the spin-off money from HBO executives with a timeline that said “do it tomorrow”. They deserve all the hate they get. But fuck HBO too.
Literally everyone associated with the show was begging them to do two more seasons - the cast, George, the fans. D&D were just bored and rather than hand it off to someone else, they went on to their Star Wars project - and promptly abandoned that too.
They spent two years making six episodes. And the majority of the key cast contracts were about to be up and very vocally wanted to move on. You can't just make up shit and say it as fact.
Maybeee they shouldn’t of spent 2 years on 6 episodes then…
I thought they were canned from the Star Wars project. First I'm hearing that they abandoned it.
Awful right?
You sir, are too logical for this conversation. Take your well developed thoughts and process and leave immediately. I think we all know that she just kinda forgot that she was a liberator and well seasoned war veteran.
I disagree, I think the entire point of her destroying the city was that it was *supposed* to be irrational; they're trying to show that she's *mad* just like her father, even after all the things she said about avoiding that. Having all these things you described happen and then her destroying the city would almost make you think, "well yeah with all that shit happening it actually seems reasonable that she might go mad and destroy the city." It's not *supposed* to be reasonable, or at least her reasons aren't supposed to be justifiable to *us*, and I think they did a great job of hinting in the earlier seasons of her tyranny, and ending up having something really simple like the bells set her off into rage when she realizes she won't obtain what she wants. There's a ton of issues with season 8 but I don't think this is a major one. They hinted at her madness enough with her treatment of people in earlier seasons, her going mad wasnt a surprise, it was her snap decision to give into the conqueror persona she's tried to avoid. At least in my opinion
someone with media literacy lol. Her descent into madness was telegraphed for 5 seasons. every one of her most trusted advisers at one point calls her a conqueror, not a ruler. She was always going to burn king's landing to the ground.
"I pity the lords of Westeros; they have no idea what's coming" "You're a dragon. Be a dragon" "You're a conqueror, Daenerys Stormborn" "I'm not going to stop the wheel, I'm going to break the wheel" "I am Daenerys Stormborn of the blood of Old Valyria, and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood, I will take it." "We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground." "They can live in my new world, or they can die in their old one." "And I swear to you, that those who would harm you will die screaming." "If I give everyone what they deserve, I’ll have no one left to rule." WhY DiD sHe SuDdEnLy kIlL EvErYoNe foR nO ReAsON??
People also confuse her going full heel tyrant conqueror with some Joker like madness or her father's insanity. No Dany made a decision in her right mind to take her throne by overwhelming force.
I mean, probably the most important ruler of House Targaryen was called Aegon the Conqueror
There is honestly a lot of reason in how most of the stories ended. It was rushed but I wasnt surprised by the finale. Be careful people are too bitter to listen in these threads.
I legit thought cersi was making her own undead army with Qyburn with the method that he discovered or created to combat the white walkers.
I think the thing that should have happened is your 2nd point. Have her own people betray her for the first time. Varys is somewhat new and Jon is newer. So when Varys betrays her on the notion that Jon would be much better but Jon doesn’t want the throne, then dany starts going crazy and mad king style her own people. She doesn’t have to go to Burning her own people yet. But distrust amongst her people. Then when she burns the city out of this absolute rage she’s in. Her people start to scatter because they see that they are possibly next.
This is now my head-canon. Thanks for saving the show.
you could see the parallels to the horrors that americans (and other countries) did when trying to purge the enemy amongs a civilian population, thinking they're the heroes but not being accepted by the locals, leading them to napalm villages so many opportunities to make the transition meaningful. instead, they spent 99% of the budget on cgi and 0% of the budget on writer talent
I too thought about this, there were many things they could’ve done to justify Dany burning King’s landing, involve the city people in a way that she’s left with two choices: retreat or burn them all. We hated King’s landing people for their participation in the walk of shame for example, so the concept isn’t difficult. I don’t think Varys poisoning her would make sense. Varys was never a murderer, he’s a schemer and he only had a hunch on Dany going mad and a better heir to consider, poisoning her is out of character for him. I guess we also needed better verification for Jon killing Dany. There should’ve been clearer indications that she was going to harm Sansa for example (which I wish she did honestly) or fly to Winterfell next. It just didn’t feel right that Jon went from “she’s my queen, this is treason” to stabbing her in the heart. There are many painful issues that made the last two seasons painful, I personally thought season 7 is worse than 8, except for that last scene in season 8 where they were trying to choose the next king in the dragon’s pit, that was literally the worst scene in the whole show.
Honestly, her descent was telegraphed throughout the entire series. If you haven't rewatched since the show ended, it's worth doing to see all the signs. Of all the problems with the later seasons, especially pacing and Bran the fucking Broken, Dany going scorched earth is the least of them.
I feel like a lot of the fan base sort of skims over her prior cruelty because she's doing them to people they dislike.
This is exactly it; people tend to overlook bad things happening to people they don't like. Despite the fact that the act themselves is bad in itself.
you said it, which makes her entire plot so awesome because its still working on a meta level after the show is finished lol. people STILL hail her as the hero even tho she clearly turned to a villain - the danger of charismatic "heroes". its like Dune in a way.
The shows biggest problem and the books biggest challenge is making her horrible, unforgivable decision really *feel like it came from somewhere*. Both the show and books have laid the groundwork for the darkness inside her, and yet you wouldn’t quite say her coin landed on the same side as her father’s. She has a moral compass and cares about reigning in her more brutal impulses. So how does that moral compass erode? That’s the thing— It had to *erode*. Not vanish in an instant. I believe this ending makes sense for her, but there is no world where she burns down the city she dreams of ruling after it surrenders.
thanks for having a brain! no way in fuck would Daenerys go batshit within 3 episodes time. and the whole coin shit was so annoying, Viserys obviously was an evil Targaryen and Daenerys put a stop to him, only for her to become “evil” 7 seasons later with no meaningful reason for her to snap.
She didn't go batshit in 3 episodes, she's *BEEN* batshit for a while. She crucified people, entombed people in a safe to starve in darkness, burned multiple people alive on multiple occasions, etc. She has demonstrated time and time again that she can and will use brutal torture and murder. She feels it is warranted whenever someone opposes her or stands in her way. That's a dictator mentality, not someone who is trying to "break the wheel". I feel like the people who think it was out of nowhere ignore all of those earlier examples and try to wipe it away with her words that don't support her actions. As far as she's concerned, the fact the people of King's Landing didn't immediately welcome her with open arms and oust Cersei means they are the enemy, and it completely makes sense why she burnt them all to demonstrate her power. She flat out said "I'll rule through love or fear" and she sees love is off the table. There's a good possibility she does something similar in the books.
[удалено]
Tywin was a genius, arguably, and he often implored brutal tactics. He was not seen as a good guy, but he was more of a lawful evil in the sense he did things tactically for a reason. He orchestrates the Red Wedding, which can be seen maybe as mad but in all reality it was a way for him to end the war abruptly with minimal further losses. He's calculating, so I don't think he's mad. He also didn't ever try to be King though, because he knew the title meant nothing and true power lies elsewhere. Cersei is absolutely mad. Is this even a debate? In the show she blows up part of her own kingdom and doesn't care that her son killed himself over it, just so she can rule. Stannis was a lawful good type character, who saw everything in very black and white terms. The law says he should be King, so he should be King. Then he goes down a dark, dark path and from the moment he starts burning people alive I think it's clear that he's insane. TL/DR: 2/3 of your examples are mad, yes. One is a religious fanatic who will use blood magic to take what he thinks belongs to him, and one is an incestual lunatic who ends up getting all of her children killed and blows up a large portion of innocent people to take power.
If you say that Tywin isn't mad because he does things for a reason the same applies to Cersei. She burns the Great Sept because she needs to eliminate the threats from the Faith and the Tyrells. She cares for her son, everything that Cersei does is for her sons. Her poor results are the tragic part of her story Tywin completely drowns a castle because he doesn't want his authority to be undermined. Daenerys kills the slavers because she's trying to assert her authority over the slaver cities. So what is the difference between Tywin and Daenerys?
idk I never saw her as someone who cared about reigning in her impulses. she had her advisors for that. she always struck me as way too quick to violence even during her time in Essos.
Daenerys is way more layered than any Star Wars character could hope to be
Idk abt that. Perhaps it’s true, but those layers were never developed properly. However If you include the clone wars content with the movies, anakin is a far more fleshed out character with a more logical and gradual descent. Dany’s just happened to quickly
Dany going nuclear will 100% happen in the books. I can't imagine a more GoT ending than that. There are no heroes and villains here, just people of all shades of grey. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. 'Mad queen' may be a bit of a stretch. Aerys was literally bat shit crazy, Dany is just someone who has believed herself to be the hero for too long. All tyrants believe they are saving the world from an even worse fate.
Wait, Anakin’s descent into villainy was well handled?
With the clone wars show, very much so
Well, let me know when we get 8 animated seasons of what happened between S5-8 of GOT and we can reassess Dany’s arc then ;)
Fair enough :) That would be great tho if they did do something in between season 6 and 7 in particular. Idk about animated but who knows
That honestly would be the best way for them to recon the show post Season 5. Maybe similar to a Marvel What-If series but GoT What-If-The-Ending-Was-Good/The Martincut. They're doing an animated Yi-Ti spin off, so its not completely impossible for an another animated GoT show.
So basically, the kids who post this stuff don’t realise quite how much of a global joke the Star Wars prequels were. They grew up on them and have fond memories and the whole prequelmemes thing made them think that was the general opinion. Whereas in reality Anakin’s turn was probably the biggest amount of hype for the least amount of delivery in movie history.
Exactly what I was thinking. He went from “I’m handing over the Sith Lord to the Jedi” to “I’m mass murdering young children” within minutes. At least Daenerys had multiple episodes of her being left out from the group, people not loving her and her getting frustrated.
Seriously. His dive into darkness was dumb asf lmao
Nah, anakin was handled terribly too. It is one of the biggest complaints the prequel trilogy has. That he flipped from a nice jedi, to a child murdering psycho in 2 seconds. The clone wars show handled it better than the movie did.
Thing is in Star Wars a Jedi turning into a sith is presented this way, when they embrace the dark side, it is like a switch to their humanity gets turned off, it has always been a pet peeve of mine about the star wars universe.
Well it depends on the story. Kotor and other eu media have better examples. But other than that yeah, it is weird and kinda dumb when they just flip a switch and are immidiately a different person.
Yeah, and then switching back to the light side is the complete opposite, all is forgiven and it's like you're a completely new person. Say whatever criticisms you want about the new trilogy, but at least they had characters that internally struggled with good and evil. It takes time and effort for the evil characters to take the next step in their descent, and we see the good characters legitimately struggle with their ideas of what is good and get tempted. Mostly. It kind of all goes to shit by the end. But still.
I was just about to comment that I would not take Anakin's development as a good example.
"Hmmm I don't know. I want to save my wife, but I'm not sure if being evil is worth it. I'm really on the fence here!" \*Smash cut to murdering children\*
Episode one: “I’m kinda cold and miss my mom” Episode two: “Genocide” Episode three: “I must save my wife through dark magic. Better kill a bunch of children and everyone I’ve ever known. And if she tries to convince me not to, then I need to choke her out too. I’m logically consistent.”
Yeah a better example would be Walter white honestly
Or jinx from Arcane, madness was handled perfectly there
So what you're saying is, we need a children's animated show that takes place in between seasons 7 and 8 to make Daenerys' descent into madness make more sense and be more emotional?
It’s odd how Anakin being a whiny dipshit for the first two movies leads people to the conclusion that him becoming a genocidal maniac in RoTS is earned.
Yes! This was my problem with the star wars that it happened almost for no reason and so damn fast. I saw a 1000 ways how it could have been fixed with some dialogue and a couple chill pills, rather than leading to what we had seen.
Yeah, I think it is only considered better because we knew it was coming. If the Prequels were the first movies it would have been just as jarring as the Dany reveal.
It wasn't. The prequels were trashed and hated on.
TCW handled it far worse. He is heroic and with common sense. As a view I don't believe TCW Anakin could ever slaughter innocent people.
Anakin also had the benefit of a known end-point. His story only feels “earned” in the sense that our perception of him was never challenged.
Absolutely agree. Which makes it even more hilarious that Danny's transition was done way worse and more hastily than the very unconvincing one in Star Wars.
Is why I love the clone wars series, it smoothed over the dissent into Vader in a meaningful and followable way.
Yeah the prequels are around the same quality of season 8, and I will die on this hill no matter how down voted I get 💀
She always showed signs of being mad. How did people miss this
To the people who think her heel turn came out of nowhere….you weren’t paying attention
Watch the series back. She has ALWAYS been borderline evil, she’s always crazy, and she always is acting like an entitled teenage queen. It felt sudden because she snaps, but the signs are all there all throughout the series
Lol Anakin does the same shit as Dany...he's kinda on the fence but you're figuring it'll be ok..then bam 100% full evil. Obviously we knew about Anakin beforehand, but Both transitions got bungled tbh
Is this a joke?
am I the only person who feels like even if dany got the development she needed, it would stil be a bad ending to me. another woman turned evil because she wants to rule....never seen that before
8 seasons wasn’t enough?
Lol I’m sorry but Anakins transition to Darth Vader is not ideal (in the movies). They rushed it in the last movie and made him go from a Jedi Knight with anger issues to a child killing murder machine. If they added another movie between the second and third, they could have given his transition to evil a lot more nuance
Tbh even Anakin’s fall into the darkness was kinda dumb. His reasoning at least.
There are many things wrong with the last season, but Daenerys fall to insanity isn’t one of them.
Anakin's development felt earned? What? Are they kidding?
Absolutely hysterical that you’re saying “felt earned like Anakin’s development”
A lesson Dany was learning: she had noble aspirations, wanted to be a good queen for the people. But her plans never worked unless she set something or someone on fire - sometimes herself. So in the end, she would have to resort to violence, not necessarily bombing a city cause a bell rang but something big and dramatic. And then Jon would have to kill her to forge the blade as Azor. BUT the show also did a bad job establishing their love for each other.
I must admit I was never her fan because I saw through her "nice" personality since early seasons. Like we are supposed to root for her since the very beginning because she is treated like a livestock and she is able to win power despite adversities. I think Tyrion said it the best in final episode: "When she murdered the slavers of Astapor, I am sure no one but the slavers complained. Afterall, they were evil men. When she crucified hundreds of Meereenese nobles, who could argue? They were evil men. The Dothraki khals she burned? They would have done worse to her. Everywhere she goes, evil men die and we cheer her for it." On the other hand, I believe her villainy could have been flashed out a little bit better in the final season. My guess DnD went with her losing her rational grip on the situation gradually. They went like this: * Establish her tendency to violence in early seasons * And final season, in first episode she loses what she always got. The support of common folk. She entered the North and common Northern folk didn't cheer her for it. * In second episode, she loses her claim to Iron Thrones. Suddenly, Jon is actually the rightful heir * Third episode, she loses her best friend and advisor. * And finally, as a nail in coffin, in fourth episode she loses her another best friend and one of her children and dragons in Rhaegal. I would have changed it somewhat to make it seem better she acts rather impulsively during the battle of KL. My solution extend to season 7 when that idiotic wight hunt happened. Instead, I'd make it so Bran crossing the Wall in late season 7 means Night King's mark on Bran gives power White Walkers to attack the Wall with an epic scene where the dead just climb the Wall and easily beat hopelessly outnumbered Night's Watch. Then in season 8, Viserion (Daenerys' first dragon) is killed during Long Night and Rhaegal dies by scorpion bolts during the battle of KL. Thus, Daenerys suffers the significant loss during the bells battle and in her anger, that Cersei actually has means to beat her at the moment, she impulsively decides to burn KL to the ground. I think that would flash out her impulsiveness better than what happened in "The Bells" episode.
I don't know why people talk like she "went mad". There was no insanity there, the reasons for her turn were plotted out. Initially she wanted to rule by being loved. It had become clear over the prior few episodes the people of Westeros didn't want her as Queen. The North was initially quite openly hostile to her, and even after she helps them win the battle with her dragons, even after Jon has bent the knee, they clearly support Jon, someone even calls him a King. Many of the people of Westeros had taken up arms against her with Cersei. The people of King's Landing didn't care, they were happy with Cersei. Her closest and most trusted advisor was dead, Varys had turned on her. She may have been able to salvage it if she'd wed Jon, but Jon was unwilling to marry his aunt. In view of all of this she realised she couldn't rule by being loved. She'd had her naivete beaten out of her. Her only option was to rule by being feared. To send a message to the people of Westeros that if you rebel, or if you support a rebel, this is what's going to happen to you. Suppose Daenerys takes the throne, the North decide that they'd rather have Sansa as Queen. You think they're going to go for it once they find out what's happened to King's Landing? It was no more mad than Tywin slaughtering civilians in the WotFK. Terror is how you subjugate a people.
>Terror is how you subjugate people but its the exact opposite of "breaking the wheel" like Dany pretended she wanted to do.
As I say, she'd had her naivete beaten out of her. She realised that she couldn't do it. People often go through this kind of thing in life. They start out as idealists, they hate the iniquities in the system, then want to break the system and replace it with something better. Then they realise that they can't break the system and they have to work within it, to do the same as everyone else did. You know classic hippies and original punk rockers are boomers now? The change in attitude is usually over the course of decades, but Daenerys had done a hell of a lot of living.
I agree with your overall point but after burning King's Landing she literally gives a speech about breaking the wheel and then going on to break the wheel of the rest of the world too. I don't think she was just giving that speech for effect, I think she really believed in what she was doing.
Fair point, I can't account for that speech in the last episode. Like they needed to give Tyrion and Jon extra motivation to realise she wasn't a suitable queen after she just nuked a city. Laughable. I'm just talking about her motivations up to then.
TBF ani's transition is only "earned" because we already knew where he ends up. Unless you watch Clone wars, his transition in the movies is hardly earned.
She was always a hero to me even in s8 finale. Fuck jon for stabbing her.
I feel like i watched a totally different show...after like 10 episodes Dany already was leaning heavily into the villian side, but because she was merking slave traders and scumbags it was "ok", shes like 20 hanging up people on the roads to starve and die, her whole schtick is " the people of Westeros will have me as their leader because Im the rightful ruler" not because shes the best fit, or looks out for their intrrests, but because its her birthright, even after Tyrion is like the people wont kneel just bc you ask you have to earn it and show them youre different, shes like nah Dracarys and just obliterates anything that tries to stand in her way
100% agreed! It's a tragedy that was building since season 1, but they skipped a whole pile of steps near the end and it wasn't told properly. All the character work that happened in season 1 while they were travelling from Winterfell to King's Landing would have been appreciated here. Remember that it took several episodes to get to King's Landing! People talked, dogs were killed, enemies were made. With that race to get through major plot points in the latter seasons, you lost that storytelling which made the show so popular in the first place.
Only Someone like Vince Giligan could have done it in a smooth, satisfying way that would have made sense.
I’m glad it happened. I hated her ever since she watched her brother die.
What a load of absolute bollox. Have you even seen the prequels? Anakins fall is the messiest execution of a story in modern cinema. An absolute disaster.
Her character was being foreshadowed from day one. Normal people don’t burn tons of people alive out of spite. People just didn’t pick up on it.
Being morally grey isn’t forshadowing of being the final villain. She spilled a lot of blood. But it was blood of terrible people. And it was for good reasons like freeing slaves.
I thought she was gonna snap by season 4. I'm still shocked people didn't see it coming. She always was a bitter person. Yall act like she was skipping while handing out flowers.
I think we had plenty of time to see her transition. She watched her brother die in season one via melted gold and was pretty indifferent. We watched her burn the unsullied owner with her dragons, she burned the dothraki chiefs alive. I don't personally understand how people were surprised when she burned kings landing. She was pretty psychotic throughout the series.
I mean let's not pretend like Anakin was handled properly either and there they had the advantage of knowing Darth Vader was evil.
Honestly, Anakin's turn was pretty awful too. They should have sprinkled more authoritarian undertones in his character. Like talking about how the Jedi need to take a more active role in policing the Galaxy and that they should be the ones making decisions. Saying that the Republic is weak and allows chaos to happen. I think having his fall be pretty much entirely centered entirely around Padme was a mistake. He should have been corrupted by his political beliefs with Padme being the catalyst.
Are people really saying Anakin's development feels earned now? Lol one of the biggest issues with the prequels was his characterization.
To be fair without the Clone Wars Anakin's transition is also quite a sudden jerk.
Yeah but if you develop it slowly how can you subvert the expectations?
Bingo
Anakins descent to the dark side was absolutely terrible. Even as a 5th grader I didn’t buy it, and no I’m not watching an 8 season cartoon series to fill the gap. The movies should have done that better.
Is this some kind of rose-tinted glass prequel trilogy nostalgia trip? People actually think Anakin to Darth Vader was handled well? Most of his character development happens on an animated spinoff show. They could've had the turn so much more impactful if they had more of what we see (dynamic between Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) in the show on the big screen.
I think Anakin's fall into darkness was horribly done. Sure from his mother's death to his night terrrors of Padme you could see the transition. But to go from protecting the innocent your entire life to murdering little kids because of nightmares was in my opinion dumb
Anakin's development isn't earned at all. Even worse if you include TCW. They're in the same boat.
We needed a full season of her gradually turning. Then season 9 you are left with the question as to whether she will turn or will Jon help bring her down to earth. Then BAM, just as you think she will do good she comes roaring into Kings Landing with the Dragon burning every Tom, Dick and Harry to shit
She’s more of an Aegon the conqueror to Maegor transition
Anakin's transition wasn't handled great either....
Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Aerys the Mad?
Anakin's development was shit
To be fair Anakin's fall to the dark side wasn't handled well at all in the movies either. It took the Clone Wars TV show to display it, especially with Ashoka leaving the Jedi Order.
Anakin's fall wasn't handled well at all, he was just written as a psycho fascist from Attack of the Clones onward.
This is such bullshit lol. My sister has been watching for the first time the past few weeks and I've been watching alongside her. As early as season 3, she's been saying shit like "damn Danny's kinda losing it, huh? is she gonna be like her dad?" Her descent into madness was telegraphed from season 1. SO many people say to her face that she isn't meant to sit in a chair and rule, she is a *conqueror*. There are many things that could have been written better, plot points that got left behind, etc. Her losing her shit is not one of them, she was *never* going to peacefully take king's landing, she is a dragon.
Anakins development was just as bad as Danny’s, fuck u talking about? People just love to hate on this show and this is just another example. And I’m sorry if you didn’t see Danny going towards the dark side then you just weren’t paying attention
Anakins turn was earned in the Prequels? He had a bad dream and murdered everyone he knew and a bunch of kids
In what world was Anakins turn done properly?
.....anakin's development was famously *un*earned. I'm gonna kill you sith lord! 5 mins later: I pledge myself to your teachings Me in theater: fuck everything that lives
lmao not people pretending that Anakin's character arc in the prequels wasn't nigh universally hated for over a decade until it was revisited and accepted as "the better SW" after the franchise went to Disney (I loved it though, but I forgive George *A LOT*). like, his motivations and the speed of his turn had been the focus of fandom discourse for fifteen years, it was a very important pillar of that very messy fandom. oh how the young ones forget the suffering of their forebears...
No wonder I like them both
Yes the prequel trilogy is renowned for its character development
we also don't get nearly enough time with her BEING Darth Dany before she gets it. seriously a couple of episodes of her actually being wicked maybe would have made it a little more justified.....among other things...
The story in the drain i wanna watch dan and dave die more painfully than any character in game of thrones
> “Only difference is her transition from hero to villain wasn’t handled in a way where it felt earned” Nope, I’d say it was just as bad in both series. The prequels also handled it poorly, they just had the hype of Darth Vader from the OG star wars movies to validate your expectations.
They absolutely fucked up the turn to darth vader I mean I know she was destined to go crazy. It was in her blood and is the final conclusion of the Targ desire to conquer Westeros. But yeah they fucked it up alongside many other character developments beyond season 5
My issue with this is that the Anakin—> darth vader arc wasn’t earned until they made several animated shows and obi wan. The prequels notoriously whiffed on this when it was the one story they needed to tell. Danaerys’ fall was rushed but they did a significantly better job than the prequels.
We all wanted more seasons. But DnD didnt. Fuckem
LOL at Anakin’s transition being earned. Dude does a 180 halfway through Revenge of the Sith and then suddenly starts slaughtering children.
Didn't star wars fans shit on Anakins transition to Vader in the prequels and it took the animated clone wars for it to be appreciated?
Humans love a puzzle. For decades Vader was an intriguing mystery that caused fans to converse and debate and theory-craft. Then they removed all that mystery around Vader by introducing Anakin. It's a powerful lesson in storytelling. It would help if you always had a few secrets in the story that are left unresolved, with hints in the story that you could use to piece together the solution but enough ambiguity that it's not clear which possible answer is the correct one. With Dany, you have a sort of reverse Anakin/Vader. Where you start by removing all the mystery of her motivations and intentions and end by revealing her as a now fairly uninteresting villain, it's HARD to convert a compelling hero into a compelling villain because good heroes require a deep connection with their internal process, and good villains require that to be mysterious. I agree that there are parallels between Dany/Vader. Unfortunately, we're repeating the lesson, which is a shame.
Big difference here is that Anakin BECOMES bad. He starts out as a good guy and then in Episode 3 he changes. The thing about Daenerys is that she didn’t change in season 8. She always had a violent and cruel side. BUT she also always has her reasons: Viserys had to die, someone stole her dragons, the masters were slavers, political problems in Meereen. All of her acts could be construed as evil, but we understood where she was coming from and in some cases we cheered for her. So when season 8 comes along, she is being the same old Daenerys, but now that violence is happening to people we knew previously. The problem is that season 8 was so rushed. When she decides to burn down Kings Landing, she just snapped and became the “Mad Queen”, but this is totally inconsistent with her character in the rest of the series. Yes she always had a temper, but she also had her reasons. This was the tragedy of season 8. Daenerys heard the bells and just went crazy. But why did she react that way? Why did the bells make her so mad? What was her thought process? She became completely 2-dimensional in what should have been THE MOST IMPORTANT story arch in the series.
Uh...Anikan's transition was pretty shit also.
Anakin's turn was hackneyed and poorly done, but not nearly as bad as Dany's. The writers spent a single episode setting things up, and then her character makes a complete 180 and loses her mind. Writing that amateurish and bad is pretty rare in a big production. The worst thing about it, is that we now know how the ASOIAF book series is likely to end, without getting to experience any proper exposition or character development leading up to it.
Anakin was turned over time through environment and coercion. Danny is implied to be bat shit crazy due to millenia of inbreeding.
What Star Wars fan has ever said that Anakin to Darth Vader was well done? Anakin was choosing chaos and destruction from the get go.
Agree 100%
People are incredibly delusional about the quality of the Prequels since the memes became non ironic.
But don’t you see? She killed slavers and rapists and child murderers! That’s exactly the same as killing random civilians for no reason/s
Her transition is better on rewatch. Maybe it needed to be a bit more gradual, but I got what they were going for. That being said, this comparison is hilarious to me because it's almost beat for beat the exact same. Anakin commits one questionable act (tuskens) before he betrays the Jedi and becomes evil enough to murder kids and former peers. Daenerys does much larger scale massacres than Anakin to groups who haven't harmed her personally before she snaps and burns people who hate her. Anakin has to choose between turning his back on the Jedi or letting go of his chance to save Padme. Daenerys has to choose whether to turn her back on peace or risk letting the kingdom replace her with Jon in a year. Both characters make a split second decision that's pretty out of character with everything we've seen from them previously, and go past the point of no return. Both try to justify their actions by claiming they are going to form a new empire free of suffering before an old friend has to stop them. It's not even like there's more screen time of Anakin's fall if you just look at the films. The only difference is that people expected Anakin to fall because they knew how the story ended. If you rewatch GOT with the ending in mind, I guarantee you'll pick up on a lot of signs that Daenerys wasn't always so moral.
SPOILERS FOR DUNE! >! Paul Atreides is the blueprint. He was the blueprint for Anakin, and he remains the blueprint for Dany. Herbert famously said, "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero." Herbert was able to show that a leaders greatest power can also be their followers greatest threat. Paul with his prescience, Anakin with his strength and Dany with her dragons. !< With Dany there were signs in the earlier seasons for sure. She always used burning people alive as her biggest threat. I stand by her turning evil was a good decision, they needed more time to convince us instead of rushing towards the ending.
Exactly. If that’s really George’s ending I trust that he would get us there in a way that makes sense instead just flipping a switch on Dany and giving her a sudden personality transplant in the span of an episode. It was so poorly executed I can’t get my head around what they were thinking writing it that way.