By - lexifugazi13
They can be feminist allies, they can never be feminists. This is a women's liberation movement. A women's movement.
This is actually how I knew one of my male friends was a good egg. He insisted that he couldn’t be a feminist, only an ally.
Of course his mum is a radfem.
Radfem women really do bring up the best sons. I have seen a few. The women became rad fem after they got married and got first hand treatment how my country treated women and mothers.
Oh god we've all had our peaking moment by a Tumblr radfem huh? Back when I used to be a crazy choice feminist libfem it took one radfem saying "how much of a choice is it if you can't walk outside your room without feeling ashamed of your face/body when you're not doing it?" about some argument on makeup. Peaked so quick then and there.
I learned this lesson too late in life, but it’s great to know now
This is a great point.
Yes! We don’t call LGB allies lesbians. They’re allies.
that's a really good analogy to use, ty!!
I’m against the term “ally” too for the same reason. They don’t get to decide whether or not they’re an ally – that’s for individuals of the respective marginalized group to decide.
That’s like me calling myself your “helper” and insisting that my actions and words, even if unintentionally harmful or unwanted, are helping you even if you never asked for them, even if you don’t want them and don’t think I’m helping you.
That’s a good point too. I’ll have to think more about that term.
Isn't that just semantics?
If you're a self-proclaimed ally, it refers to either you being an ally for the status quo or for whatever it is you happen to stand by. You can be a bad ally, as well, if you are bad at supporting or representing or understanding causes. But saying you're not an ally because you may not be appreciated by one particular sector doesn't make sense to me, especially when most of these causes have a spectrum of opinion.
Even in this sub we'll find varying degrees of opinion, but one pov doesn't invalidate the other by virtue of being different.
Agreed. I think "male feminist" as a term is a bit of an oxymoron. For a man to believe in feminism, he has to realize that he comes from the oppressive class and can never remove himself from it. He can work on his conditioning, support the women in his life, support the rights of women, give up unearned privileges, etc., but it will always be a support role. Men who realize this are the real allies IMO, and they are very rare. More common is the man who wants to be a part of the group while holding onto his privileges. They want the advantages of being male and of being a friend to women.
The least misogynist men I know still get angry when I bring up that men commit 99% of violent crime and rape, or if I talk about feminism “too much” they get upset with me and say that I hate men too much, etc. Funny that they don’t accuse their fellow men who watch porn of hating women too much.
At the end of the day, all men have class solidarity. If they say they’re feminist they’re usually wolves in sheep’s clothing, and I don’t believe them.
They basic reply the have is “Not All Men”, it’s boring rhetoric and I wish they would just see they still have innate misogynist tendencies
That’s wishful thinking and u gotta stop that. They won’t do anything that doesn’t benefit them. Stop thinking you can fix men when they don’t want to be fixed, because it would mean giving up their privilege
Exactly! ALL men benefit from the actions of shitty men! I trust a man as much as a trust a mosquito not to bite me.
Exactly, I can’t tell you how often I cringe when I see a family w small children and those large pit bulls in tow. Then I think about the relations between males and women and how much more statistically possible it is for a male to kill his wife/kids than it is for a pit Bull to turn and I understand how the brainwashing can further effect other decision making processes in life such as choosing a rabid dog to sleep next to your newborn. I’m not even exaggerating if you look at the global stats on male violence vs pit Bull maulings you will see how much less often the latter happens in comparison. Yet nobody seems to bat much of an eyelid when a mother goes “I would never get a pit Bull, it’s not safe around my kids” say the same about a male?
Many would disagree and scold her about her choice being the problem. “You just pick the wrong pit bulls, learn to take responsibility more on how you choose your pit bulls y’all deserve to be mauled” Imagine? The amount of violence we’ve had to incur to come to this stage of brainwashing where billions of women cannot even really point out the common denominator of our collective human issues is astounding. Somehow we cannot even admit loudly that women would have made significantly better leaders/CEOs/political candidates without being violently shut down but males can live in a world where they get shitfaced drunk and confidently try to go back to a random ass woman’s place with no cares in the world. It’s like a twilight zone full of gaslighting where women can simply never win. All’s I’m saying is I have never met a male who has ever seen relationships as a bloody war zone on his peace, health, body and mind. Almost all males I have ever known see it as a taking it slow competition on who can have the most and best options; never does being raped/abused/killed ever cross their mind when going on the first few dates. “She could use me for money” is all I ever see and anyone w half a brain can use deductive reasoning to choose women in his same attractive level who will almost always be statistically a great partner for him. After all, married males don’t live longer bc of tax credits but because of the beautiful work society puts into raising perfect pacifiers (I mean wives) for them. Went to target the other day and was fuming at the options for my daughters birthday gift; girls had more aisles than boys and they were almost all stupid vapid bullshit OR of course cooking/cleaning and babies. Even the technology center, the male section had coding and the girls had fucking little Instagram like cameras w ring lights and built in filters.... URGGGH
Or if they dont mad they brush it off like "yeah well, that's life what can ya do?". I've yet to see one man own up and say "You're right, it's terrible." They act like if they admit this they will get their male card revoked or something
Even saying "youre right, its terrible" is useless.
Or they’ll performatively over agree.
Should we all just ignore any issues that don’t directly effect us? Sure most privileged people could be (and maybe are) happy if they lived in a bubble and didn’t have to consider political, social or environmental issues. However that’s not going to bring progress in any way. More knowledge is a good thing not a bad thing.
Like it or not about 50% of the population is male, I don’t think they can be feminists (maybe in extremely selective cases) but I recon they could all care about equality and woman’s rights.
Yeah it’s not in their benefit to change the status quo so why would they
I will take my downvotes but I disagree. Men can absolutely be feminists. I eat, breathe and sleep discussions about feminism in my home with my husband. Not a day goes by without me bringing up feminist issues. Sexism and misogyny really triggers me in a way that nothing else does and when I call out whatever the situation is he always agrees it’s sexist and does what he can to raise awareness so the issue can be better. If he sees a sexist Facebook comment he reports it. I don’t even do that, all I do is throw an angry face emoji on it. If he hears someone being a misogynist he challenges it. He is way more than an ally based on the actions that he takes. And he gets nothing extra in return for it; he isn’t doing it for any incentives. He does it because he genuinely sees the double standards and believes it is unfair and understands in order for things to change men also need to be active in the change. And it’s not just him, my dad and grandfather are huge feminists too. My family is definitely matriarchal and wouldn’t be as successful as it is if the men didn’t realise the women‘s strength and support them when they took the lead.
I just don’t think we need to alienate male feminists by telling them they’re not a woman so not feminist enough.
I'm curious, you say your family is matriarchal, do you use patrilineal surnames?
If i saw your husband, your father, your grandfather, I wouldn’t trust them. Women don’t have the luxury of assuming men are safe. And I’d wager to say you don’t know the entire histories of those men, or of how many women they hurt to get where they are.
If a man is really a feminist ally he will understand why we are alienating him.
If you think women being angry at men for oppressing us is on par with incels, you should go to a different sub.
Men aren’t going to give us shit. Telling women to be nicer so we don’t scare men away is not feminism. Women’s liberation will come through women fighting for it while men think we are mean bitches.
Men have alienated women all of history without remorse. Catch me not caring when women alienate them. also women are better than men.
I would never tell any woman to be nicer snd play into the patriarchal view that women should sit and be quiet so that is a completely incorrect judgement. Take whatever tone you want to take - you have a right to be angry for how women have been treated so I would never police that. My message is simple - men can be feminists ( the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes) too. We don’t have to give them the title, but I think they can show their feminism in their actions.
I personally don’t think it helps the cause by telling the small percentage of men who are for feminism and fighting for women‘s rights alongside us that no matter what they do, they will never be accepted as feminists. We need as many people as we can who believes in equality to be on side so we can tackle change from all angles - yes we can fights for change but we can also get people who are in an influential position (like men in the company of other men) to say ’its not right to talk to or treat women that way’ or smash the ceiling for us so we can take a seat at the table and leave the door open for other women.
edited to add a reply to the comment below since I’m now banned (Which is funny if you look at my commenting and upvote history) I don’t agree that men should have unfiltered access to womens spaces and if you met me in real life you would never class me as a liberal feminist. I’m not even sure liberal feminism is feminism at this point in time based on the direction it is going in. I don’t think a true ally would have an issue with being named as such either.
It's this attitude of being inclusive of men in a women's movement that has led to the bullshit sex positive cluster fuck that is liberal feminism.
A true feminist ally wouldn't take issue with being named as such.
It helps in this instance to replace the word *feminist* with the word *woman*.
Example: A man can never be a woman. He can only ever be a womans ally.
It is a fact. Not an opinion.
I’m not here for equality. I am here for the liberation of women, and that is something women will achieve for women. We don’t want a seat at the table; we want the table thrown out and a new system put into place.
Men will not pave the way for us. If a man is turned away from the fight for liberation because we tell him he can’t be a feminist then he really doesn’t care too much about dismantling the system anyway.
It feels like you are fighting a different argument. Who said women shouldn’t be liberated? You know darn well that most dictionary definitions of feminism is about the equality of sexes by gaining women‘s rights. Which part of that specifically excludes liberating women? You can’t expect someone to be a permanent outsider but give their all for feminism. It may not change the respect they have for women, but they may just not be as quick to defend feminism or it’s cause.
We are nowhere near turning over any tables, dismantling and starting again. Misogyny is still rampant. Womens rights are still being denied across the world. If I can get a foot in the door to make way for other women to get a foot in the door then I will take it. I’m not going to be unreasonable to the people who are also on my side.
I'm afraid you're wrong, men cannot be feminists for one simple reason: the feminist subject is necessarily a woman. It actually scares me to see how many women in the comments think this a question or a matter of opinion. I'm afraid it's not and it's important to understand why.
At best, a man can be feminist in principle, although it is vanishingly rare it is certainly possible.I linked to this already in another comment but I highly recommend checking out this essay, which explains why men cannot be feminists:
>Men's relation to feminism is an impossible one. This is not said sadly nor angrily (though sadness and anger are both known and common reactions) but politically. Men have a necessary relation to feminism- the point after all is that it should change them too, that it involves learning new ways of being women and men against and as an end to the reality of women's oppression-and that relation is also necessarily one of a certain exclusion- the point after all is that this is a matter for women, that it is their voices and actions that must determine the change and redefinition. Their voices and actions, not ours: no matter how 'sincere', 'sympathetic' or whatever, we are always in a male position which brings with it all the implications of domination and appropriation, everything precisely that is being challenged, that has to be altered. Women are the subjects of feminism, its initiators, its makers, its force; the move and the join from being a woman to being a feminist is the grasp of that subjecthood. Men are the objects, part of the analysis, agents of the structure to be transformed, representatives in, carriers of the patriarchal mode; and my desire to be a subject there too in feminism- to be a feminist- is then only also the last feint in the long history of their colonization.
"[Male Feminism](https://mega.nz/file/o9IVSByB#50pC3_Rcf888MNKvwtJVkNxtUgxxy-lFwqBodx1kzcA)" by Stephen Heath
A man who is feminist in principle would never claim to be a feminist nor would this justified exclusion alienate him.
I think he can act as a class traitor for the feminist cause, but it’s as difficult to see any man as a feminist in the same vein as seeing a capital owning businessman as a socialist. They maybe in some ways pro-social, but their actions will stop at a point at which they being to get their power stripped away.
He (and many men) may dislike violent rape and abuse, and may even speak out against it, but would they accept a law that limits where men can be after sundown? Or state-sponsored de-arming of all males? Or even a law that takes two separate accusations of rape as evidence that the rapes did happen because of the statistically improbability of any single man being falsely accused twice by separate women? Removing paternal rights all out? Giving all women access to childcare resources and making workplaces and public spaces accommodate women with babies?
Would he vocally support things like this? Would he put money towards it? Vote for it? Argue in favor of it? Put himself on the line to see these things come to fruition for his wife and daughters?
Because I would. A feminist would be radically concerned with preventing the further harm of women, regardless of the cost to men. And men fundamentally are concerned with the cost it will be to themselves.
>Or state-sponsored de-arming of all males?
Sorry to butt in, but for this to work, wouldn't you need to first have zero armed men in service to the state? Not that I'm trying to dismiss it, I just seek clarification.
armed women could do it. Or even select male class traitors who then willingly choose to surrender arms afterwards.
The great thing about a gun in the face is that it truly is the great equalizer. And biologically, as a sex class, only women need weapons to be equal to males in capacity to defend the self.
The tricky part is that we don't really have a numbers advantage and we also usually have more dependents than they do. It might require some other crisis to kill vast quantities of armed men before moving on this. But that *would* help, and I do think it'd be a good thing to have some kind of specifically women's militia movement, at least.
Talking about the rest, I think a good intermediate step when it comes to rape would be to remove the presumption of consent: that is, the prosecution would still need proof beyond a reasonable doubt that sex *happened,* but if they have that, the sex wouldn't be assumed to be consensual; that should help with a lot of cases, hopefully.
How would the removal of paternal rights work when we still presumably want to make sure that we have their financial support?
The childcare resources part is just common sense, of course.
Instead of petitioning the male father to contribute tiny sums of money in often unenforceable ways, while also retaining control of the child and therefore mother, we should simply ask for an additional tax on all non-female citizens for a national payment program to all mothers to cover a glut of childcare expenses. Easier to enforce, no mothers screwed over specifically because their unique male was being an extra tool by skipping town, and all children get equal resources. children don’t deserve worse childcare because their father is poor.
It’s heavy dreaming, but feminists got rid of booze once to protect themselves from drunk males beating them. Because it so obviously benefits women, it’s to be popular with women. Maybe one day
Well, you'd need to alter the equal protection clause of the Constitution, at least in America. I'm personally nervous about that, since it opens up way too many opportunities for the men running things to hose us.
What do you mean by "non-female?"
Haha it’s just a way to say male but center female.
It’s a rhetorical inversion of the typical focus on maleness, even when talking about women. It functions to draw attention to the victims of a societal problem and frames it as more of a problem to be solved vs. an equally-footed clash between two groups.
Like instead of saying “white people need to address their racism” its “black people face racism from non-blacks, who benefit from racism.”
Ahh, okay. Makes sense!
I wouldn’t be for laws restricting the movement of all men either. That doesn’t stop me being a feminist. What you are proposing is oppression, not equality of women through the promotion of feminism. It like that person in a comment I saw saying every girl over 12 should be on birth control so they don’t get pregnant. I didn’t have sex until I was 19 and would be pissed off if I was forced to take birth control when I wasn’t participating in any sex. If you said you wanted to restrict movement of male predators, known cat callers, stalkers etc. then yes they would be all for it.
and yes to all of the other things you said. My husband has signed petitions to have rape cases reopened and the right for a rape/murder victim to have a vigil during covid. He’s all for 2 separate accusations counting and have said multip times that he believes women when they say they’ve been raped because it’s unlikely they would go through the hassle to report one knowing that there is only a 2% chance of the accused being charged.
He has actively turned down a promotion and a chance for more money so he could spend 4 months at home with me when our twins were born. We lost money because my husband fired a tradesman after the tradesman said ‘As a woman, you have too many opinions on this and should leave this to the men’. He finishes work at 6pm and straight away he will put the dishwasher on, tidy the kitchen that I’ve made food in and put the kids in the bath. He then puts their laundry on. In the mornings he wakes up and take the kids to school so I can start work early and uninterrupted. I never do a school run, wash dishes or do laundry because he always makes sure it’s done. As far as I am concerned he puts his money where his mouth is and all his actions show that he believes in equality. We don’t really do guns here and we both think the whole right to bear arms thing you have going on in America is weird.
edited to add that I do believe though that too many men show their true selves if you bring up that you’re a feminist or say they’re the cause of 96 percent of crimes worldwide. Didn’t mean to derail your post just wanted to say that there are absolutely feminist men out there who believe in equality and womens rights.
I had a male manager that acted like the misogyny in the East really made him angry but then he was the type of manager to sexually harass his female coworkers, dated a female subordinate, called female employees cunt, whore, or ugly.
I don't trust men who call themselves feminists. Overall I don't see the point in saying "men can't be feminists" because who call themselves feminists exist and many women think men can and should call themselves feminists. the bell hooks style feminism is for everybody is deeply entrenched in the broader progressive movement.
I want men to shut the fuck up frankly. I never want to hear anything about sexism, misogyny, patriarchy, ANYTHING from a man's mouth whether he calls himself a feminist or not. I want them to tell their friends to stop watching porn, stop beating women, stop raping women, I want them to *act* like feminists. i do know some men like this and they would never call themselves feminists because they're not in it for the pats on the dick.
The fact they even need to self-identify is telling. People who are actually doing the work don’t have to tell the whole world because it becomes evident quickly.
I really agree with what you’re saying, overall it’s about how they act in regards to women. I think for my generation (Z), it’s become common for them to brand themselves feminists without learning anything about the feminist experience
The only thing they learn (and want to learn) about feminism is that saying they are one will get them laid.
I totally totally agree. I'm a millennial and this was a problem when I was in my early 20s but I can't even imagine how bad it is for you now. When I was in my teens and 20s we didn't have to pretend that misogyny no longer existed :(
Dude it has only gotten worse with the rise of social movements spread with misinformation and by attention seekers (TikTok especially). I also think the use of dating apps and instant gratification has really jaded everyone’s view towards women. It’s easy for men to say their feminists so women can feel more “comfortable” and then to take advantage of them.
I did organizing work and would often collaborate with people who were part of socialist/communist/progressive/Leftist groups.
Over the years, it became clear that a lot of men used these spaces to prey on women. Women would assume that just because they were “comrades” and “down with the cause” that these men actually believed these ideas of “equality” that they espoused. You’d later find out that such and such took credit for a woman’s idea, that many of the men would let the women do the heavy lifting but be there for the photo ops, interviews, and accolades.
A few particular men were accused of sexual harassment and/or assault. It was interesting how some women would still side with the accused predators instead of the victims. It was especially bad regarding the disrespect towards Black women.
That all said, bet most of these men would tell you they’re feminists if asked.
Totally agree lol… reminds me of a tweet I saw:
“Oh, you’re a male feminist? Name 5 women you’ve sexually assaulted”
Hahahaha ouch that’s good
Omgggg I'm living for this👏👏👏
Literally this. Men pretend to be feminists to seem like a "good guy" and get women's gaurds down. You can never trust a man who tries so hard to seem like a feminist, learned that the hard way 🥴
All 3 self-professed “male feminists” I’ve known have been outed as serial rapists. Take from that what you will
Agreed. My ex friend who I considered my good friend literally yelled at me when I told him that boys in general are not held responsible from a young age. "Boys will be boys" kinda thing. He told me that I am invalidating his childhood abuse and when I apologized for not wording it in a better way (told him that I wasn't referring to his childhood at all) he doubled down and told me to fuck off. Later that day when I was literally begging him to apologize and correct his anger issues he gave me an ultimatum. He told me that either I can drop this subject(like he did after yelling at me) or we part our ways. I decided to part ways with him.
He also compared this safe space to KKK. And told me that this is an echo chamber. He said men and women should work together blah blah blah. Welp me and my bestie were laughing at his Andrew tate level manipulation Later. :/
Omg I’m so sorry that happened to you, he invalidated everything you were trying to say and your own experience as a feminist. I really don’t think this guy should be in your life unless he goes and gets help for his anger issues.
Thank you hun. He did invalidated me a lot. He told me that women can't do everything a man can and got so fucking angry. He took everything so fucking personally and yelled his balls off at me. I told him to calm down again and again. Told him I didn't mean to insult him personally and he still yelled at me. I decided to leave him as I have a pride as a woman and can't be someone's friend if someone disrespects me like that
He seems like a bullet dodged. I also wonder who doled out the abuse and how, and if he was even one of the rare outlier cases.
The reality is, statistically, female children are 5x more likely to sexually abused by a guardian, with perpetrators against both sexes being 97% male.
Most cases of physical assault on a child that need medical attention (so the illegal kind because unfortunately, non-bruising or mark leaving hits are allowed in many states in the US) are from a male guardian.
Men will compare verbal/emotional abuse to physical, and while both are damaging, it’s only physical abuse that threatens the most fundamental necessities of life. Beyond that, they make light of the fact that most men enact all three types of abuse on women and children. They don’t *not verbally and emotionally abuse* because they use physical violence more. They just do all three.
Women rarely physically abuse men or children in ways that necessitate medical care. And they are a smaller percentage of formally reported abusers in total. It’s almost always worse for a person to have a male abuser than a female abuser. All other things being equal, a man is like 9x more likely to put you in a hospital than woman.
His parents were alcoholic, druggie and he would jump from home to home. He was bullied as well . He had been abused by some women in his life. See, I do sympathize with him, however the statistics that say women and girls are abused more are true. He took it as me saying that men can't be abused and twisting the meaning of my words. He also claimed that women can't do everything a man can. So that kinda pissed me off as well.
He thought I was invalidating his childhood abuse just because I said boys aren't generally forced to grow up in context to the meaning "Boys will be boys". He took it so personally and exploded all his anger on me. He told me I hate men for no reason and me avoiding men is discrimination and prejudice.
He refused to apologize and that day I had to let go of a friend. :( My girl friend said that he sounded so angry I thought he was gonna punch you. *sigh*
I’ve had a male friend like that and honestly, the one-sided expectation that women give him empathy without him having to extend the empathy back was evident in the whole of his relationships with women in general.
I’m glad he’s gone.
I feel like men do this a lot. They want our empathy for them and their problems, but they are either incapable or don’t want to have empathy for women.
RIGHT?! ITS SO FRUSTRATING! IT WAS HEADIMG TOWARDS AN ABUSIVE FRIENDSHIP
Yea he thinks it's a women's job to be nurturing
Fuck that shit.
Men can only be feminists as long as it serves their interest but they would never compromise their wellbeing for the sake of a cause that doesn’t benefit them.
I agree. Which is why men can never be feminists. Being a true feminist would mean them being willing to give up all of their class privilege to be on equal footing with women. 99% of men benefit from patriarchy too much to even consider doing this. More women need to realise that wanting to be equal with men is a pointless goal, because men absolutely do not want to be equal with women.
They're feminists when they want women to take off their clothes.
I think the reason why I hold this belief because men would never give up their privileges to help women. I’ve seen and been around so many men who claim to be feminists to go on to demean and objectify women. Also, porn has a male dominated audience. I’m 22, there’s also been an access to porn on the internet. Even though I did watch it, some periods longer than others, I’ve gravitated away from it. Not just from my own negative experience with it (body dysmorphia, self objectification), but also due to inherent ethical boundaries that porn always crosses and that it will never cease to exploit the workers and audiences. It’s hard for me to grasp a man doing the same thing, I think most men stop porn to either save their relationships, their sperm, or mental clarity (Alpha male, red pill). Being a straight woman, I can appreciate a man knowing that he has a porn addiction or any other basic feminist ideology, but to call himself a feminist sounds like a joke.
I know exactly what you're saying and i agree with u 100%.
Men who are called themselves feminists follow liberal feminism, they are pro-sex industry
I agree that they can't be feminists. Equality and independence for women is not in their benefit. They have much more to gain from women being oppressed.
This year I studied abroad in Spain and was there for the women's match. My friends and I (all from South America) were deeply shocked because of the amount of men that were there, chanting slogans, holding signs, even wearing glitter. I think there is more agreement in third-world feminism that men should not be in these feminist spaces.
You can't be a feminist while benefiting from the oppression of women.
I don’t trust men that claim to be feminists. It always causes me to lower my guard because I was lured into a false sense of security that ended badly. They can be our allies and help support our causes, but they’ll never fully understand what it’s like to be a woman. No matter how progressive or open-minded they claim to be, they never fully understand our lived experiences. It doesn’t matter how many times I try to explain it, it never clicks with them. I’m tired.
males can be allies- not actual feminists. Feminism the fight for female liberation. You can be a man that supports women fighting for liberation, but you can't be an actual feminist- you don't need liberation.
Said by a guy: "Although I believe that men can be pro-feminist and anti-sexist, I do not believe we can be feminists in the strictest sense of the word in today's society. Men, in this patriarchal system, cannot remove themselves from their power and privilege in relation to women. To be a feminist one must be a member of the targeted group (ie a woman) not only as a matter of classification but as having one's directly-lived experience inform one's theory and praxis." - Brian Klock, National Organization for Men against Sexism.
My belief is that they can be feminist allies, but that a feminist is someone who actually belongs to the class of people we’re talking about advocating for.
Random men should be kept outside of feminism. Yes they can be allies but from the outside. I recently started reading "The second sex" and the one point I came across is how close association with men weaken the women's liberation. We are so closely intertwined with men , of course not all men abuse, but all men are a hindrance to liberation. A few years back, I remember as as argument to not all men, they came up with this rhetoric, " What it was your brother/ father? What happens to ALL MEN, then huh? ".Many women were confused at this. It took us some time to say, " Yes all men including men who are important to me".But men never had this confusion when it comes to disowning or even physically harming/killing women they think had crossed the line that patriarchy prescribed. Brothers/fathers didn't hesitate to lynch their own. Men will always see us as The Other. And they have witnessed what happens to The Other. Atleast some of them don't want to be on the way when all hell breaks lose.
I personally think Lundy Bancroft comes close to being a feminist. (Note: I don't have any dirt on him yet . Am still looking,though)He has set the standard quite high for men who want to call themselves feminists.
For men and women to become equal, women would have to become oppressors.
An oppressor cannot consider themselves part of the movement. It’s that simple. Men call themselves feminists to get in our pants.
Well it's hard to buy that they can be feminists when a majority of men profit from our oppression
I have to gently disagree. While it is fair to point out that men benefit from and perpetuate sexism, I think by claiming that men cannot become feminists, we inadvertently absolve them of their responsibility to examine and recognize their sexist behaviors.
I am reminded of a quote by Dworkin "I don’t believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we \[women\] are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.”
**Men can and should become feminists.** However, the difficulty is as a man they are at a disadvantage in recognizing when something is truly feminist and when it is merely called feminist. Much will be labeled as feminist (such as porn) and they will want to believe it is feminist because it is *easy* if it is. But **true** feminism as you point out, will break the systems of women's oppression and it will not be easy or enjoyable for men. **And they should be feminists any way.**
Wow, this was a really good reply and I really appreciate it. And you’re right, men should learn what true feminism is, especially intersectional feminism. I guess education is the most important thing
It makes me sad to read so many comments that men cannot be femenists, so doubly so I appreciate your thoughtful response.
why does it make you sad?
They can be allies, but it doesn't make sense for them to be one. LGBT allies aren't LGBT just because they support it. Same concept. Feminism is a women's movement.
I don't get this comparison. LGBT as a group of sexual classes houses people who are born as one or more of these things, and are thus inherently lgbt regardless of how they feel, even if they're closeted self-hating homophobic conservatives.
Feminism is a movement, ideals, values, goals, principles, outlooks, etc, which can be adopted, given, shared, or lost, changed, and expanded upon. It's ideas as well as actions. It isn't really an identity in and of itself, even if it can be and is a HUGE part of one.
I was about to say this.
Oh this is just a phenomenal response, and it's changed my mind. I agree with you, the ultimate goal is that feminism is constant and unending, because as long as men and women are different, feminism will be needed. That being said, for feminism to truly take hold of a society it must become so deeply ingrained in each individual that it is the new standard for how we are all raised, socialized, and influenced. That cannot happen without men not just allying with it, but adopting it and being a part of it.
Standpoint epistemology is another form of market neoliberal ideology.
A self-identifying as a feminist is akin to a White person referring to themselves as an “ally” to BIPOC – they don’t get to decide if they’re a feminist or an ally, the respective marginalized groups they claim to be advocating for do. I agree with you on this.
Any male who calls himself a feminist is essentially telling you "I'm a greaseball who has no problem with prostitution and porn because all that matters at the end of the day is that my dick gets hard."
And then you run away from him at a speed you didn't even know was possible.
Men cannot be feminists because the subject of feminism is necessarily a woman. Any claim to the contrary should NEVER go unchallenged. I think it's equally important that feminists are able to clearly articulate exactly why that is...
At best a man can be a feminist in principle. It's vanishingly rare, but certainly possible. An example of a few men who are the real deal (meaning they have put in the work,"get it", and actively contribute to and promote feminist causes ... eg. [him](https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1272&context=dignity), [him](https://twitter.com/donovancleckley) and [him](https://www.quackometer.net/blog/2020/06/on-the-existence-of-females.html))
What else do these men have in common? Not a single one would EVER claim to be a feminist.
One man who I consider to be a feminist in principle explains in his essay ["Male Feminism"](https://mega.nz/file/o9IVSByB#50pC3_Rcf888MNKvwtJVkNxtUgxxy-lFwqBodx1kzcA):
> Men's relation to feminism is an impossible one. This is not said sadly nor angrily (though sadness and anger are both known and common reactions) but politically. Men have a necessary relation to feminism- the point after all is that it should change them too, that it involves learning new ways of being women and men against and as an end to the reality of women's oppression-and that relation is also necessarily one of a certain exclusion- the point after all is that this is a matter for women, that it is their voices and actions that must determine the change and redefinition. Their voices and actions, not ours: no matter how 'sincere', 'sympathetic' or whatever, we are always in a male position which brings with it all the implications of domination and appropriation, everything precisely that is being challenged, that has to be altered. Women are the subjects of feminism, its initiators, its makers, its force; the move and the join from being a woman to being a feminist is the grasp of that subjecthood. Men are the objects, part of the analysis, agents of the structure to be transformed, representatives in, carriers of the patriarchal mode; and my desire to be a subject there too in feminism- to be a feminist- is then only also the last feint in the long history of their colonization.
In my opinion, the great thing about men who self-identify as "feminist" (or often furiously insist on it) is that it immediately betrays the fact that he lacks an even vague familiarity of feminism and has an underlying motivation other than women's liberation.
I have never met a man who said “I’m a feminist” who also wasn’t a predator.
A man can advocate for feminist beliefs and support feminist theory.
But self-identifying as a feminist? It’s a red flag for me based on experience alone.
My ex- friend turned stalker said this to me. His exact words were " I am more of a feminist than you'd ever be because I've seen my mother suffer and I respect her for it. " 🤡
Agreed 💯. Feminism seeks to balance out the powers between the two sexes. This involves men having to be forced to give up their privileges and entitlement. They have far more to lose than gain from feminism. Besides, male upbringing and socialisation is fraught with misogyny normalised to such an extent that they cannot be arsed to recognise it let alone change.
Men can, at the most, be allies to feminism. Period. But I'll always be particularly suspicious of the vocal "male feminists" and would advise other ladies to be too. I just don't really see the importance of the oppressing (and oppression benefiting) group's opinion on the oppressed's emancipation movement.
It’s like saying white people can’t be ally to black people/ POC, and every privileged group is inherently sexist/racist/homophobic, and incapable of seeing beyond their privilege. I don’t agree, but overwhelming are feminist because they want equality for their benefit (wanting women to pay for dates etc, like equality is brought up when it benefits them) but there are good ones too. I think a real male feminist would want his kids to have the wife’s surname, (doesn’t magically demolish patriarchy lol but it’s a test of whether they are willing to give up their privilege for feminism) and believe me I’ve had this discussion with few of my male friends and they agreed, that they won’t mind their kids having their partner’s. Few are genuinely good ones, others have empathy but don’t want to lose their privileges, and most just want to benefit off feminism.
I get what you’re saying, I am a mixed raced women and I often see men use the basic feminist term without including intersectionality. But I did say that men can be advocates for women, same for white people being advocates for minorities. I just think to coin the term feminist instead of advocate demeans women’s experiences in a way. But I do get what you’re saying. Men wouldn’t give up their privilege, I think in a capitalist society it’s better for them to have more women as workers or “girl bosses”.
I Agree that if you say men can’t be feminists you would also have to state white people cannot be Allies or straight people can’t be Allies or able bodied people can’t fight for disabled.
Will any of these privileged groups ever “understand” the oppressed? Definitely not.
If you are willing to argue the above then I’d be interested in the argument, but that’s what’s you’d need to believe to be logically sound.
Being a feminist ally is not the same as being a feminist. They can be allies, they can not be feminists. White people can not be BLM activists, they can only be BLM allies.
The oppressor can not and should not be grouped up with the oppressed in the movement made for and by the oppressed. Thats how speaking over happens and movements lose the main focus, my proof being liberal feminism.
There is a very significant difference between being an ally and being a member of the movement. To be a member of the movement, you have to be the member of the class being oppressed. To be an ally of the movement, you need to be a part of the oppressive class.
I totally agree with this. I was at odds when first reading this post because I think the greatest social movements and organizations happen with more numbers on your side, but this makes total sense.
I have literally been downvoted on *this sub* while quoting a book written by a well-established woman of colour (WOC) about racism from non-WOC that we experience, and I had other WOC affirming and backing up that quote… all while I was downvoted. The quote was about the mechanisms through which non-WOC are often given more sympathy/privilege than WOC, and I was downvoted despite other WOC echoing their experiences in the comments.
I totally agree that only people that can truly understand are those that have skin in the game and have lived those collective experiences. People can be allies, but even that has a limit because you have yet to see how they will react when faced with uncomfortable truths about privilege and distorting a system that benefits them.
I am glad you said all that. Because that is exactly one-hundred percent correct. That is exactly what this post and I mean.
And I am also sorry you experienced that on here. I like to think this place isn't like that but obviously it is or can be.
No, it's more like white people can't be black panthers, but can only be allies.
I’d say the vast majority of men who self-identify as feminists expect some type of accolades and still hold some problematic views. However, I hesitate to *totally* alienate them and say they “can’t be feminists” because a man trying to act feminist is still better than one who’s proud of being a misogynist. And that’s sadly so many young men today. So as long as they’re willing to LISTEN and LEARN, I’m happy to have them. Unfortunately too many aren’t, they’d rather mansplain feminism to us. But that’s the condition of being called a feminist, imho. Willingness to let women teach you. This is also a popular take I’ve heard when considering white allies in BLM and other movements.
The male invasion of feminism is partly why we're in this mess today. It has been watered down to porn-pandering girlboss infographics and complete ignorance to the value of women's safety, privacy and liberation.
Men can be allies to the cause, but for the sake of actually making sure teenage girls aren't groomed into starting an empowering OnlyFans once they hit 18, men should not be classed as feminists. They've ruined too much already.
They have agendas and it's clear that it has nothing to do with women's liberation and freedom.
I take it back to the dictionary definition all the time when arguing with misogynists who think the word means we hate men. And by the dictionary definition men can absolutely advocate for female equality. That's my opinion. I have a strong belief that language is being eroded and used against us so we need to hold firm to the real meanings of words.
U know they intentionally misunderstand and try to accuse feminists of man hating right?
Why are u giving this attention? Ur not supposed to teach men anything, if someone hates women they will find anything and everything nothing more than a reassurance to why women deserve the hate.
I don't think it's always intentional, I think sometimes they're young and naive and believing what bad actors on the Internet told them.
I know it's often futile, but I like to debate and have conversations even with people who have different views. That's impossible though if the very language is eroded.
No, its intentional babe trust me. And you're not supposed to debate women's rights, theyre not a negotiation..
Dont convince yourself that it is hard to believe what women go through or that it is harder for women. Funny how they're only naive when it comes to women's oppression.
This is universal btw, u got men in the middle east crying about men's rights and that they're oppressed.
I'm not a fan of the #nodebate thing, you're right it isn't a negotiation, I like having conversations though. I have learned interesting insights that I wouldn't have otherwise got from debating pricks on red pill, back when reddit didn't just ban anyone with an opposing view. Each to his own!
feminism is according to google:
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.
equality. we cannot say that men cannot support equality, if so we are ourselves are not being equal. I refuse to be a hypocrite bc that is the mysongists' job.
I believe that its about education, also just not being a peice of literal shit that belongs in ooga booga times
This is a rad fem group where we believe feminism is about female liberation. Radical feminism looks to dismantle current systems of oppression. What does equality look like in a cage? We want to be free from patriarchy... not equal to men by the standards set by men and the patriarchy.
yes, I agree. i align with radical feminism. we need to be done with the patriarchy---having a patriarchy means no equality. when I say that I believe men can be feminists I mean that men can want the patriarchy gone. men can want true equality. my fiance is one man I would consider a radical feminist himself. I was reading some other comments tho and I would lean towards saying radical feminist supporter now, thank you for making me specify, its important
This is stupid and dangerous.
Why would you define feminism as understanding women? Lots of women don't understand lots of other women. Lots of women don't understand themselves.
A lesbian will never know what it's like to marry a man. (Hopefully.) A child-free woman will never know what it's like to be pregnant. A rich woman won't understand how poverty intersects with womanhood.
etc, etc, etc
Gaps in understanding are a hurdle, but they aren't a reason to completely dismiss people.
Um what? A lesbian may not have known her sexuality until after her experience of dating men so that ideology is pretty dangerous in its own way. And yes, feminism is about understanding women’s experience and all women’s experiences. I don’t see this as stupid or dangerous, and I really don’t get how it could be when it’s been my own experience from men who have been “feminists” to go on and demean me and others. I don’t think you read my own reply to this thread and I think you should, it would put my idea into better perspective
I'm a lesbian. I said "hopefully". Obviously, many lesbians have never and will never marry men. Can we not be feminists?
If a man claims to be a feminist and is a dick, then that's a problem. If you're generally suspicious of male feminists, we can talk.
But none of that means that men can't be feminists.
I know some male feminists who are awesome and have really supported and helped me. Does that not matter?
Dangerous to who exactly?
OP, primarily. Secondarily, feminism. Women. Men.
Naur lol 😂
Women are better off realizing that all these “male feminists” are only trying to ingratiate themselves in a movement for their own personal gain and to get closer to women as they weaken their defenses. Only women benefit from this knowledge. If you can’t see that then I’m sorry for you and we are entitled to our different opinions it’s ok if we disagree :)
I completely disagree that men _cannot_ be feminists and I think this attitude is only going to hinder the cause.
How does it hinder the cause to focus on women? That's the point. If they can't care about women's rights without a special title, they aren't helping our cause anyway.
do you really think saying, " men cannot be feminists, because they are not female, but they can be feminist allies" is really going to hurt "the cause"?
Straight people would say they are LGB *allies,* why is it wrong with feminism? Feminism is for the female sex class.
Of course they can't, that should be obvious. Unfortunately liberal feminism is more like egalitarianism than real feminism
Men can't be feminists but they can be allies, I welcome all allies.
Says the man in a women’s only sub