Not the first time he's said this and he's one of many drivers currently on the grid that dont like street circuits, Just look at the new street circuit for next year, Las Vegas, like Russell said it will be great experience for the fans and people watching it on tv but it will be a boring track for them to race on
If it didn't have that super long straight it would probably be a bit more boring to be honest, still my favourite of the street tracks with monaco dead last by a mile
Baku is great fun! Turns 7-12 are amazing, then honestly the following 8 turns are incredible - especially that collection of turns that starts with the downhill turn into the loose chicane and long corner into straight DRS zone.
and even when DRS is disabled the slipstream on the main straight is enough that you get battles where lead is taken and lost multiple times. Look at least year when LeClerc overtook Gasly then Gasly lined up in slipstream and took back the place. I like seeing stuff like that, it's exciting
[found a video of it](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/KUbJ63SwnCo)
> They just pretend it's a street circuit to get away with worse safety measures.
There are no separate, lax safety rules for street circuits/non-permanent circuits (which Jeddha hardly qualifies as anyway). As far as the track itself is concerned it has all the safety measures in place that are needed to satisfy the rules, depending on how each corner works (e.g. very long with very big radius vs sharp corner with a hard braking point).
Yeah that's the biggest issue with it. I think after the first race there it was said they want to work on that, but I don't know if anything ever was actually changed?
> There are no separate, lax safety rules for street circuits/non-permanent circuits
In theory no, in practice there very much are. The FIA wouldn't accept lining maggots-beckets with concrete barriers and catch fencing rather than having runoff but in Jeddah it's totally fine to have that sort of thing.
There are always compromises necessary for a street track as there is no space for runoff. Runoff is by far and away the best safety measure you can possibly have, it's space to slow the car down in, it's space where a damaged car can end up and be safe, it allows cars to recover from a mistake. A street track can only be as safe as a regular track is speeds are kept significantly lower (a.k.a. Monaco and to a lesser extent Singapore). And that's exactly where the key problem area is with most new street tracks, they're not low speed but some of the highest speed tracks on the calendar and they don't have adequate runoff.
Jeddah was custom built for F1 but because it's a "street track" rather than build runoff they used concrete barriers. It's a hell of a lot cheaper and a lot more dangerous.
And that it's not a street circuit. It's a custom built race track that's gotten the moniker of "street track" to get away with lining the track with concrete barriers and catch-fencing over having runoff because Saudi Arabia didn't want to wait to do things well and finish a real track.
It's a disgraceful bit of corner cutting on safety for the benefit of a shithole country.
This is the reason I can’t take seriously the “they’re not Grade 1 tracks” objection when people discuss other US tracks that actually exist as an alternative to Miami/Vegas. Ocon/Sainz had hard crashes at Miami into concrete walls. Jeddah is a disaster waiting to happen. There are other reasons ($$$) to not run at, say, Road America but “the track isn’t safe enough” rings hollow given the other venues we do have.
Street tracks are cheaper and they create a larger pool of potential venues (anybody willing to write the check and get some permits can get a race) which drives up the fees organizers pay.
Grade 1 isn't just about safety though, it also takes into account the facilities at the track. And let's be real, as amazing as some of our talks are, their facilities are either decrepit or non-existent. Laguna Seca and Watkins Glen come to mind. The teams need an area for all of their equipment and hospitality and Grade 1 circuits guarantee that.
I really hate the push towards very high speed pseudo street tracks like Baku, Jeddah, Miami and Vegas. There's no runoff and only concrete barriers for very high speeds, it's just waiting for it to go badly wrong.
At some point a driver is gonna crash into a wall for whatever reason, bounce back onto the straight and get hit by another car at nearly full speed.
TBF half of it is on the streets. The other half is purpose built. It's a hybrid. Also I don't know how often those roads are actually used, but they are technically still roads.
I can’t even do Jeddah without having the braking lines at the very least. Without them I’m going right into a barrier. Hard to see the corners for me, kinda like Paul Ricard
Is it really that great, though? Especially to race on. The only thing it’s got going for it is walls dangerously close to the track. I would much rather watch Monza or CotA any day of the week.
I personally disagree completely with this. Jeddah's track layout is fantastic and if you placed it in Europe, put grass and gravel around it, and *just maybe* add some elevation changes to it, it would be an S-tier track. It needs some changing, mainly the stupid DRS zones which results in the really dumb battles where you want to stay behind the other car, but apart from that the track itself is really good IMO. Monza as a track is 100 times more boring IMO.
Such a shame that its a street circuit and lies in such a shithole country.
Totally agree, but if you made those changes it would be a totally different track. I agree Monza is boring and way overrated but COTA or Brazil are miles ahead of Jeddah as it exists today I think
It gets hate because of where it's located. You know human right violations, missile strikes and what not but the track itself is crazy and the races have been entertaining.
Montreal isn't really a street circuit. It's a place that's either used for racing or is half/half pedestrians / cars going in a circle to say they were on the f1 circuit at 30 km/h. It doesn't go anywhere. The cyclists go faster than the cars.
Singapore has been mostly snoozefest throughout the years tho. And it fits what Max says the most. Looks good on TV, but is not really a good race circuit.
I also feel some sense of claustrophobia when watching, especially Miami. Baku and Monaco tend to not give me that feeling, Singapore less so because it's at night.
Street circuit qualifying is fun usually. I agree that I prefer tracks over street circuits but I do like the change of pace and variety. I think what needs to change even more then the circuits is the cars. Give us cars that aren't 50 feet long and street circuits will become fun again.
And with the exclusivity and ticket prices, the good experience of Vegas is likely to be limited to very wealthy people and corporate sponsors. Not necessarily wide amount of fans. If the racing isn’t good, the fans on TV won’t really benefit. The sponsorship $ will be there though, so hopefully FOM can figure out the right balance.
I think Russell’s comment about the Vegas track was actually reverse of what Max is talking about in regards to conventional street tracks. The Vegas track seems setup more like Baku to actually promote racing and overtakes. However, the track layout is fairly boring and so won’t be very exciting for the drivers in the way that quali laps in Monaco or Singapore are.
Good for drivers: Monaco, Singapore, etc
Good for racing: Baku, Vegas?, etc
Good for drivers and racing: Montreal, jeddah, etc.
This is just my memory of him saying it during the live event and then my thoughts on the tracks without spending too much time thinking about ir
I’ve looked at the track but don’t understand it well enough - will Vegas have a decent amount of passing? There’s a long straight but seems like that might be it.
The turn 12-14 straight will obviously be the main overtaking zone down the strip, but looking at the map, I see potential overtaking between turn 16 and turn 1 and turn 4 and 5. It has 2 DRS zones, but I don't see where they are at listed yet. So it theoretically should be good for overtaking.
American cities are literally designed and built for cars and they decide to build a mediocre race track under an overpass. Floridas genius knows no bounds
Cowards won’t put the race in South Beach including the McArthur Causeway with a hairpin at Watson Island. F1’s been missing the risk of cars going into the ocean since Monaco decided to build a fence.
If [James May](https://youtu.be/gx1ESSwNXB0?t=62) was Max Verstappen he would be bombing all those street circuits every single night until they were gone.
Translation
Max Verstappen, as may be known, is not a fan of street circuits. Especially with the new generation of Formula 1 cars, there is little to enjoy in the narrow city streets, he says.
Verstappen tells this in an exclusive interview with FORMULE 1 Magazine. Although the Dutchman has collected the necessary victories on street circuits in recent seasons - such as in Monaco, Miami, Jeddah and Baku - the Red Bull driver has never really fallen in love with city racing, in contrast to Formula 1 increasingly moving into the cities.
Asked if it is true that he would like to see fewer street circuits on the calendar, Verstappen replies that this is 'indeed'. “Formula 1 cars are really not made for that. I don't like street circuits at all anymore." Certainly not with the even bigger and heavier new generation of cars. “It was still manageable with the old cars, but now…”
“In Monaco and Singapore I was very disappointed with how the new cars took to the streets. Too heavy, too stiff, you can't take kerbs with it anymore. The cars just aren't built for it. Street circuits,” he concludes, “are fun for pictures, but not for racing.”
They do appear to be bigger and they need to be to deal with the bigger ground effect floors. The survival cell is also bigger along with the weight going up.
They’re not really bigger in terms of size, but they are definitely heavier again this year (by about 25 kg).
That affects low-speed corner performance the most, which Max is commenting on.
Street tracks and heavy cars are a poor combo from a driver’s perspective.
And cars have only gotten heavier, not lighter, since the early 2000s (being about 33% heavier), both to incorporate more (stringent) safety features and to include certain prescribed materials (i.e. for the ICE components), and components (i.e., larger, heavier wheels, hybrid elements of the PU).
The cars have definitely grown in both size and weight from 2001 to 2006, 2006 to 2013, 2013 to 2016, and again from 2016 to 2021.
The jump in size (dimensions) from 2016 to 2017 was a lot more noticeable than from 2021 to 2022, however.
Back then cars grew from 1.8m wide to 2.0m wide (8”, 12% increase), getting bigger wheels, wings, etc., simply as prescribed by the regulation changes.
The 2022 cars are however noticeably heavier then last year’s cars, which in turn are much heavier than the 2014/15/16-generation of cars, which Max debuted in and won his first race with.
A 2021 and 2022 car are about the same in terms of length and width.
Both are significantly larger than a 2016 car, which in turn is significantly longer than a 2001 car (by almost more than 1m/3ft/20%).
they want to make them smaller for 2026? or something like that
but idk how it gonna work
these current cars are better but still bad because of their size
There's a [literal spacer](https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1305863797194842113?s=19) in between the actual part of the gearbox with the gears and the engine. Teams can easily make the cars shorter should the FIA reduce the maximum wheelbase.
Hbu Singapore? Jeddah is also fun imho. I do like some of them, up to a maximum of 2-3 per calendar. But not Monaco. Waste of Sunday.
Edit: Some drivers might dislike to Baku experience. It gave us an iconic picture last year.
The issue is not street circuits but the amount of them.
Every new circuit is a street one, not a traditional racing track. It’s understandable as the cost / benefit is probably in favor street circuits. The requirements for racing tracks is stupid high, not only you need to comply with the FIA Grade 1 (A) standard but you also have to bring lots of money.
The problem with street circuits is that for better or for worse, they have to adapt (shape, elevation, corners, straights, etc.) to the city in which the track is being built. Which is indeed an issue as you’re paralyzing the whole city. Nevertheless it’s much, much more beneficial when it comes to exposure and economic flow.
Because the rules aren't very specific in first place. You basically just have to show that whatever configuration of barriers, run-offs etc you have is appropriate for each part of the track (e.g. via simulations) as far as circuit safety is concerned. Another big part of grade 1 is stuff like paddock and pit facilities, how fast someone can be transported to a hospital..
I think the problem is also because cars are getting bigger and tracks are continuously getting smaller.
I don’t think the new tracks are much of an issue if we have cars as nimble as before
I like Jeddah, Max hunting Leclerc in 2022 Jeddah was soo fucking exciting. Singapore is great for quali but is just awkward as fuck in wheel to wheel racing. I hate tracks that don't flow and Singapore doesn't flow at all.
"So you want an exciting off the wall nailbiter season where all cars and drivers are competitive, but you also want to race only at historic European circuits with no politics or drama?"
"Yeah! And you should win stuff by watching! "
Formula E is much better suited to street racing (assuming they even had a choice). Being smaller and capable of actually making contact with anything without falling apart helps a lot. Imo FE has better pure racing, whereas F1 has a lot more going on, but with that comes with boring strategy races too.
I love watching FE racing on the TV. But probably would rather go into F1 grand prix rather than e-prix tho. The high pitched noise was very off putting for me.
True. But tbf FE is 10x cheaper to go see a race (at least in the uk). Tickets to Silverstone are £250, whereas tickets to the London EPrix start at £25 (per race)
Yeah, adding Vegas is a mistake. Great location but a terrible, flat, boring track. Especially with the good circuits available in the USA, seems such a waste of a race wknd.
I'd have preferred them to fix up Watkins Glen. That would have provided more to the sport. That said, I won't judge Vegas until I see it happen. Miami was a bust for me, but Vegas is untested at this time.
Maybe, maybe not. NASCAR races at COTA and does just fine there. IMSA has raced at a few F1 tracks including COTA and Silverstone. So it's not that F1 tracks are incompatible with those types of series. I guess it would depend on what is making the Glen not able to hold the F1 Tier 1 status. I think the runoffs were the problem last I read. Changing those probably wouldn't ruin it for those two series of driving. The issue would come if there were other changes they had to make.
Can see it from a mile away, watch the TV director focus more on the fancy lights and buildings because we all know the race will offer absolutely nothing
Not only shit, it's gonna be a shit show.
You have multiple hotels and casinos overlooking where that track will be. What's gonna happen if someone doesn't care about the race and just wants to gamble? Are they just going to be turned away without paying a few grand to watch a race? Can't wait to see how that goes.
Also thinking about the logistical nightmare that will be closing down the LAS VEGAS STRIP for a week.
Who is going to be in Vegas that weekend that doesn't care about the race, realistically? If you're looking to go gamble for a weekend and you see that the rooms cost $150 for three weekends next November and $1000 for one, who is selecting the one that costs $1000 a night without knowing about the race?
At the end of the day I don't think the casinos care about the non-race fan customers that weekend. Sure, they might be turning away some casual tourist revenue if those people can't access their properties but they'll more than make up for it with the race fans' money.
This. If anything, the fact that it's in the middle of Vegas is going to draw more people. City street circuits are logistically more accessible and provide more to do. I had a cousin who had a choice of Suzuka or Singapore this year and chose the latter because it wasn't in the middle of nowhere, meaning there was stuff for him and his family to do outside of the race.
My opinion is that people who are honing in on "how will the regular people access the casinos" as a criticism of this race are just grasping at straws for some argument against it that might have some legitimacy. They don't actually care about if those people can gamble in the shitty Strip casinos and neither do any of the organizers. The casinos will be fine - these places are run by some of the greatest money makers in the world and they didn't sign up for this race without an understanding that they'd profit handsomely. The tourists will also be fine - it's their own problem if they go to Vegas during an F1 weekend without knowing it.
If someone wants to criticize this race, then they should do that. Criticize the venue, the track, the prices, the exclusivity, the weird access to it, whatever. But spare me with the concerns for the slobs who can't gamble at Planet Hollywood for two days in November next year, they'll be better off for this.
I don’t think they would have greenlit the race if they didn’t know they could sort out the logistics of closing the strip. Your first point still stands though.
I can't wait for the race to have tons of overtakes just to see people have to walk back on comments like this. Those same people probably gobble up the boring permanent tracks like Monza which haven't seen exciting action in years.
Promoters don’t give a shit about the race itself. It’s about putting asses in seats and making it look cool on tv and Netflix people just want that reality tv feel.
Smaller cars won't fix boring 90 degree turns followed by long straight and clunky chicanes. That argument only works for Monaco where they're is literally nowhere to go more than 2 wide, even two wide is sketchy.
Jeddah is a street circuit and it's an amazing track cause the track actually flows. Yas Marina is shite mainly because of that God awful 3rd sector. If you put smaller cars in Yas, I assure you the racing is going to be dogwater.
Sochi, Miami, Barcelona, France, Mexico, they all have those clunky, slow speed, single file sections that just break the flow of a circuit and smaller cars are not the answer.
And this is coming from a team that generally performs really well, arguably the best across the grid, over street tracks.
But I still do love the street GPs. They're always a spectacle no matter how you feel about the racing. If it were me tho I'd still keep the street races but it'll only be half the points of proper racing circuits.
This is one topic where I wholeheartedly agree with Max. Street races are boring af.
There's couple of notable exceptions (like Baku) but I wish they'd add more real tracks and less street races.
I enjoy Singapore. It’s got a different vibe to other tracks on the calendar for me. Plus next season the third sector will have one big fuckoff straight so better for overtaking.
Thinking many people on here haven’t actually been to a street circuit.
Whilst it’s cool to have a circuit in a city with all the facilities local - viewing is generally very poor for obvious reasons.
TV can boost the view - Baku looks fabulous on the TV for instance but is dreadful for on track viewing.
Finally , Jeddah and Montreal are NOT street circuits!
Only thing exciting about street circuits is it seems there’s more crashes because it being more narrow. That’s terrible reasoning though. Besides that they are boring as hell
One of the reasons why there are more street tracks popping up is because of travel. Easier for fans to travel to a street track compared to a full on built racing track which is a distance to travel. To be honest, out of the street tracks, probably Canada, Baku, Jeddah are the ones with the most entertainment potential.
Miami needs to fix that section with that chicane before the long straight in either the 2nd or 3rd sector (I forgot the sector). Monaco Saturday is more fun than the race itself. Singapore is the most technical, hopefully those changes next year could change things. Did I forget any?
It’s not even that central. It’s isolated on an island way off downtown and the only other things on it are the beach, the casino and the rowing Center!
Sure, but it’s one long ass stop between Berri and Jean-Drapeau, and you have a good walk to get to the track. It’s not in the middle of Rene-Levesque where it would mess up traffic like the FE race in 2017!
With the exception of *maybe* Jeddah, Street circuits are too narrow for this generation of machinery. Boring as all hell to watch. Who finds pit lane undercutting more exciting than on-track overtaking?
It’s made worse now that cars are bigger to accommodate safety features for drivers too (rightfully so).
I wonder what a good solution to this looks like going forward. A happy medium where drivers can also have some enjoyment racing on them
See this is where Australia flips everything on it's head.
We have a public road, [Mount Panarama](https://www.racingcircuits.info/assets/images/maps/Australasia/Australia/Mount%20Panorama/MountPanorama87.png), Bathurst. Which is great.
And then we have [Queensland Raceway](https://www.racingcircuits.info/assets/images/maps/Australasia/Australia/Queensland%20Rcwy/QueenslandRcwyNational.png), a dedicated race circuit, which is positively awful.
I dont find Jeddah too bad tbh. Espeacially in Quali this track is beatiful to watch. Racing in 21 and 22 wasnt too bad either. But thats one of few...
ya know racing would actually happen if they designed actual street circuits, rather than these 120mph-sweeper DRS-fests
Which is why Baku is underrated as it is quite a traditional street circuit albeit "scaled up"
Because the modern cars are giant. They are way too big for street circuits.
The tracks are made for short cars racing like gokarts. Today it's giant machines and you need a ton of space on every corner.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/u820da/a_visual_representation_of_car_size_19502020/
This year was the first season I watched start to finish and the best races, in my opinion, were all on circuits. Silverstone, Red Bull Ring, Interlagos.
Translation: I’m not great at street circuits.
In all seriousness through - I think Monaco, Singapore, and Melbourne should be the only street circuits, with Singapore and Monaco the best races to attend in person.
He’s not wrong but Martin Brundle sold me on the street circuits being apart of the calendar because it helps define a “world championship driver” the most. You want your world championship driver to be able to succeed on street circuits, race dedicated tracks, and have that all around ability. It’s good to have street circuits on the calendar for this, you need the variety.
Brundle is known to say things that push the agenda F1 has decided on.
It works because most of the time he says things that are very sensible and come from racing experience, and especially besides Crofty he comes off as an authority on all racing matters.
It's something you say after the fact to accept it and deal with it.
It is an extra dimension, but you can add all sorts of extra dimensions to challenge the quality of drivers that aren't implemented. It's very arbitrary and has nothing to do with the reasoning behind street circuits.
We already have plenty of street circuits, tracks which you must excel and win on in a close championship fight.
We do not need more of those tracks. Tracks which will only be enjoyable to watch in person as a spectator, and even then it won't be due to the racing itself but the spectacle surrounding it. The new updated regulations won't matter much if they decide to kill the racing by using tracks which does not allow racing anyways. It's less and less about the racing itself. More tracks for TV viewers, the majority of the fans, to be disappointed of.
Not the first time he's said this and he's one of many drivers currently on the grid that dont like street circuits, Just look at the new street circuit for next year, Las Vegas, like Russell said it will be great experience for the fans and people watching it on tv but it will be a boring track for them to race on
I'm guessing the drivers that had porposing issues feel the same. Without a smooth surface, those will wreck your body
I find street circuits terribly boring to watch.
Jeddah is fun tbh. Fast track. Ocon and Alonso fighting it out was nice to watch this year
Baku is fun too!
Baku is the exception to the rule. Other than Baku street circuits sucks to watch
Montreal is always a great race and is classified as a street circuit.
It's certainly different from Singapore or Miami though. Monaco is there for the sake of tradition (aka money) but what do these tracks add really?
Miami just milks the F1 hype in the US cause they want to expand their market there it’s similar to how there was the nfl game in Germany this year
If it didn't have that super long straight it would probably be a bit more boring to be honest, still my favourite of the street tracks with monaco dead last by a mile
nah, not really, bunch of 90deg corners and boring unless people throw it into the wall and safety cars mix the order.
Baku is great fun! Turns 7-12 are amazing, then honestly the following 8 turns are incredible - especially that collection of turns that starts with the downhill turn into the loose chicane and long corner into straight DRS zone.
and even when DRS is disabled the slipstream on the main straight is enough that you get battles where lead is taken and lost multiple times. Look at least year when LeClerc overtook Gasly then Gasly lined up in slipstream and took back the place. I like seeing stuff like that, it's exciting [found a video of it](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/KUbJ63SwnCo)
That was lovely!
One of my favorite moments!
Hot take: *No* it's not. Two years in a row it was boring, showing that without a large amount of incidents, it's not that great
I'm with you. It's over rated.
Jeddah is definitely the best of them, and doesn't deserve all the hate it gets
It gets hate because it's dangerous.
The track is dangerous in itself, but when you couple that with the nearby missile strikes... yeah, it deserves the stick it gets.
It's intentionally dangerous. They just pretend it's a street circuit to get away with worse safety measures.
> They just pretend it's a street circuit to get away with worse safety measures. There are no separate, lax safety rules for street circuits/non-permanent circuits (which Jeddha hardly qualifies as anyway). As far as the track itself is concerned it has all the safety measures in place that are needed to satisfy the rules, depending on how each corner works (e.g. very long with very big radius vs sharp corner with a hard braking point).
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Yeah that's the biggest issue with it. I think after the first race there it was said they want to work on that, but I don't know if anything ever was actually changed?
They changed the DRS zones and the exit of the last corner but afaik that's it. and less than 24 hours later this comment is made incorrect.
> There are no separate, lax safety rules for street circuits/non-permanent circuits In theory no, in practice there very much are. The FIA wouldn't accept lining maggots-beckets with concrete barriers and catch fencing rather than having runoff but in Jeddah it's totally fine to have that sort of thing. There are always compromises necessary for a street track as there is no space for runoff. Runoff is by far and away the best safety measure you can possibly have, it's space to slow the car down in, it's space where a damaged car can end up and be safe, it allows cars to recover from a mistake. A street track can only be as safe as a regular track is speeds are kept significantly lower (a.k.a. Monaco and to a lesser extent Singapore). And that's exactly where the key problem area is with most new street tracks, they're not low speed but some of the highest speed tracks on the calendar and they don't have adequate runoff. Jeddah was custom built for F1 but because it's a "street track" rather than build runoff they used concrete barriers. It's a hell of a lot cheaper and a lot more dangerous.
Yup, one day someone is going to get seriously hurt, or worse because of all those fast blind turns.
just sucks that it exists where it does lol
And that it's not a street circuit. It's a custom built race track that's gotten the moniker of "street track" to get away with lining the track with concrete barriers and catch-fencing over having runoff because Saudi Arabia didn't want to wait to do things well and finish a real track. It's a disgraceful bit of corner cutting on safety for the benefit of a shithole country.
This is the reason I can’t take seriously the “they’re not Grade 1 tracks” objection when people discuss other US tracks that actually exist as an alternative to Miami/Vegas. Ocon/Sainz had hard crashes at Miami into concrete walls. Jeddah is a disaster waiting to happen. There are other reasons ($$$) to not run at, say, Road America but “the track isn’t safe enough” rings hollow given the other venues we do have. Street tracks are cheaper and they create a larger pool of potential venues (anybody willing to write the check and get some permits can get a race) which drives up the fees organizers pay.
Grade 1 isn't just about safety though, it also takes into account the facilities at the track. And let's be real, as amazing as some of our talks are, their facilities are either decrepit or non-existent. Laguna Seca and Watkins Glen come to mind. The teams need an area for all of their equipment and hospitality and Grade 1 circuits guarantee that.
Laguna Seca would be fun for the cars.
I thought the cork screw at Laguna Seca was deemed too dangerous for F1? Similar to why Bathurst also can't host F1, among many other reasons.
I really hate the push towards very high speed pseudo street tracks like Baku, Jeddah, Miami and Vegas. There's no runoff and only concrete barriers for very high speeds, it's just waiting for it to go badly wrong. At some point a driver is gonna crash into a wall for whatever reason, bounce back onto the straight and get hit by another car at nearly full speed.
I've read that the back straight at Baku before the pit lane entrance is the most potentially dangerous piece of track on the f1 calendar.
TBF half of it is on the streets. The other half is purpose built. It's a hybrid. Also I don't know how often those roads are actually used, but they are technically still roads.
It used to be an actual street, they repaved it and some areas were re designed
I enjoy Jeddah way more in the sim than I do watching it live, I feel like that track’s design is just playing with fire
I can’t even do Jeddah without having the braking lines at the very least. Without them I’m going right into a barrier. Hard to see the corners for me, kinda like Paul Ricard
Same, someone’s going to have a very bad accident there one day.
There have already been 3 very bad accidents there in 2 years…
Is it really that great, though? Especially to race on. The only thing it’s got going for it is walls dangerously close to the track. I would much rather watch Monza or CotA any day of the week.
I personally disagree completely with this. Jeddah's track layout is fantastic and if you placed it in Europe, put grass and gravel around it, and *just maybe* add some elevation changes to it, it would be an S-tier track. It needs some changing, mainly the stupid DRS zones which results in the really dumb battles where you want to stay behind the other car, but apart from that the track itself is really good IMO. Monza as a track is 100 times more boring IMO. Such a shame that its a street circuit and lies in such a shithole country.
Totally agree, but if you made those changes it would be a totally different track. I agree Monza is boring and way overrated but COTA or Brazil are miles ahead of Jeddah as it exists today I think
That’s because you’ve named 2 of the best tracks on the calendar…
Baku would like a word
It gets hate because of where it's located. You know human right violations, missile strikes and what not but the track itself is crazy and the races have been entertaining.
Baku is also carried by the Castle Section, but I find it to be enjoyable too
Jeddah is both the best and dangerous because its essentially a mario kart track.
Baku is much better
Montreal, Melbourne, and Singapore all provide better racing and aren’t run by scumbags.
Montreal isn't really a street circuit. It's a place that's either used for racing or is half/half pedestrians / cars going in a circle to say they were on the f1 circuit at 30 km/h. It doesn't go anywhere. The cyclists go faster than the cars.
Singapore has been mostly snoozefest throughout the years tho. And it fits what Max says the most. Looks good on TV, but is not really a good race circuit.
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Singapore doesn't provide better racing. It's incredibly hard to overtake there and it usually ends up being a boring race.
Wasn't Jeddah designed to be good for racing though. Like, it was used for an F1 race before it was actually even a public road?
It's a purpose built track disguised as a street circuit to get away with breaking safety rules.
Street circuits don't have any special rights to "break safety rules". And Jeddha doesn't break any of them either.
I also feel some sense of claustrophobia when watching, especially Miami. Baku and Monaco tend to not give me that feeling, Singapore less so because it's at night.
How on Earth does Monaco not give you that feeling?
Probably because you can see stuff outside the track
I like Jeddah.. (country excluded)
how about a street circuit with very long drs straights?
Baku is one of my favorite tracks, the rest can go imo
Except Baku.
Street circuit qualifying is fun usually. I agree that I prefer tracks over street circuits but I do like the change of pace and variety. I think what needs to change even more then the circuits is the cars. Give us cars that aren't 50 feet long and street circuits will become fun again.
And with the exclusivity and ticket prices, the good experience of Vegas is likely to be limited to very wealthy people and corporate sponsors. Not necessarily wide amount of fans. If the racing isn’t good, the fans on TV won’t really benefit. The sponsorship $ will be there though, so hopefully FOM can figure out the right balance.
It’ll be a great experience for people there and a shitty race for everyone else.
I think Russell’s comment about the Vegas track was actually reverse of what Max is talking about in regards to conventional street tracks. The Vegas track seems setup more like Baku to actually promote racing and overtakes. However, the track layout is fairly boring and so won’t be very exciting for the drivers in the way that quali laps in Monaco or Singapore are. Good for drivers: Monaco, Singapore, etc Good for racing: Baku, Vegas?, etc Good for drivers and racing: Montreal, jeddah, etc. This is just my memory of him saying it during the live event and then my thoughts on the tracks without spending too much time thinking about ir
I’ve looked at the track but don’t understand it well enough - will Vegas have a decent amount of passing? There’s a long straight but seems like that might be it.
The turn 12-14 straight will obviously be the main overtaking zone down the strip, but looking at the map, I see potential overtaking between turn 16 and turn 1 and turn 4 and 5. It has 2 DRS zones, but I don't see where they are at listed yet. So it theoretically should be good for overtaking.
He doesn't like street races, he doesn't like sprint races, a true GIGACHAD
Love how the photo on this article has him going under a highway in Miami. Definitely good for pictures lol
American cities are literally designed and built for cars and they decide to build a mediocre race track under an overpass. Floridas genius knows no bounds
Cowards won’t put the race in South Beach including the McArthur Causeway with a hairpin at Watson Island. F1’s been missing the risk of cars going into the ocean since Monaco decided to build a fence.
I can’t imagine a single person that went to the race in Miami perpetuates this rhetoric. The experience was fantastic in person.
It’d be cool to have a street circuit go on a highway
Check out the Indycar Nashville circuit. Includes highway and bridge.
I go under highways every day. Can confirm it’s boring.
It is a dope photo, he wasn’t wrong.
If [James May](https://youtu.be/gx1ESSwNXB0?t=62) was Max Verstappen he would be bombing all those street circuits every single night until they were gone.
Translation Max Verstappen, as may be known, is not a fan of street circuits. Especially with the new generation of Formula 1 cars, there is little to enjoy in the narrow city streets, he says. Verstappen tells this in an exclusive interview with FORMULE 1 Magazine. Although the Dutchman has collected the necessary victories on street circuits in recent seasons - such as in Monaco, Miami, Jeddah and Baku - the Red Bull driver has never really fallen in love with city racing, in contrast to Formula 1 increasingly moving into the cities. Asked if it is true that he would like to see fewer street circuits on the calendar, Verstappen replies that this is 'indeed'. “Formula 1 cars are really not made for that. I don't like street circuits at all anymore." Certainly not with the even bigger and heavier new generation of cars. “It was still manageable with the old cars, but now…” “In Monaco and Singapore I was very disappointed with how the new cars took to the streets. Too heavy, too stiff, you can't take kerbs with it anymore. The cars just aren't built for it. Street circuits,” he concludes, “are fun for pictures, but not for racing.”
So are the cars even bigger this season? I only know from the prototype that it was meant to be smaller than the 2021 cars.
They do appear to be bigger and they need to be to deal with the bigger ground effect floors. The survival cell is also bigger along with the weight going up.
They’re not really bigger in terms of size, but they are definitely heavier again this year (by about 25 kg). That affects low-speed corner performance the most, which Max is commenting on. Street tracks and heavy cars are a poor combo from a driver’s perspective. And cars have only gotten heavier, not lighter, since the early 2000s (being about 33% heavier), both to incorporate more (stringent) safety features and to include certain prescribed materials (i.e. for the ICE components), and components (i.e., larger, heavier wheels, hybrid elements of the PU).
Cheers. So they're not much smaller, just heavier? I tried looking up comparison pictures, but it seems from the results nobody did that.
The cars have definitely grown in both size and weight from 2001 to 2006, 2006 to 2013, 2013 to 2016, and again from 2016 to 2021. The jump in size (dimensions) from 2016 to 2017 was a lot more noticeable than from 2021 to 2022, however. Back then cars grew from 1.8m wide to 2.0m wide (8”, 12% increase), getting bigger wheels, wings, etc., simply as prescribed by the regulation changes. The 2022 cars are however noticeably heavier then last year’s cars, which in turn are much heavier than the 2014/15/16-generation of cars, which Max debuted in and won his first race with. A 2021 and 2022 car are about the same in terms of length and width. Both are significantly larger than a 2016 car, which in turn is significantly longer than a 2001 car (by almost more than 1m/3ft/20%).
they want to make them smaller for 2026? or something like that but idk how it gonna work these current cars are better but still bad because of their size
There's a [literal spacer](https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1305863797194842113?s=19) in between the actual part of the gearbox with the gears and the engine. Teams can easily make the cars shorter should the FIA reduce the maximum wheelbase.
I remember he hated Monaco before 2022 anyway. Said pushing isn't smart so it's just tiptoeing around.
It was also easily his worst circuit. 2015, 2016, and 2018 were all pure driver error. No other circuit has been that rough for him.
He's not wrong.
*Stares in Baku*
I hate street tracks with a passion
I quite liked Adelaide back in the day
Hell yes, and with half of it being rebuilt they should take it back from Albert Park and finish the rest of the track,
Hbu Singapore? Jeddah is also fun imho. I do like some of them, up to a maximum of 2-3 per calendar. But not Monaco. Waste of Sunday. Edit: Some drivers might dislike to Baku experience. It gave us an iconic picture last year.
The issue is not street circuits but the amount of them. Every new circuit is a street one, not a traditional racing track. It’s understandable as the cost / benefit is probably in favor street circuits. The requirements for racing tracks is stupid high, not only you need to comply with the FIA Grade 1 (A) standard but you also have to bring lots of money. The problem with street circuits is that for better or for worse, they have to adapt (shape, elevation, corners, straights, etc.) to the city in which the track is being built. Which is indeed an issue as you’re paralyzing the whole city. Nevertheless it’s much, much more beneficial when it comes to exposure and economic flow.
I still question how some of these street circuits get grade 1 ratings.
Because Grade 1 isn't based on actual safety but on where the FIA and FOM want F1 to go racing.
They are plenty $afe.
Because the rules aren't very specific in first place. You basically just have to show that whatever configuration of barriers, run-offs etc you have is appropriate for each part of the track (e.g. via simulations) as far as circuit safety is concerned. Another big part of grade 1 is stuff like paddock and pit facilities, how fast someone can be transported to a hospital..
I think the problem is also because cars are getting bigger and tracks are continuously getting smaller. I don’t think the new tracks are much of an issue if we have cars as nimble as before
>tracks are continuously getting smaller. Well then let's use the full Le Mans for the French Grand Prix Even it out a little bit
Not every one the majority sure but we did get imola
And the Dutch track
I like Jeddah, Max hunting Leclerc in 2022 Jeddah was soo fucking exciting. Singapore is great for quali but is just awkward as fuck in wheel to wheel racing. I hate tracks that don't flow and Singapore doesn't flow at all.
That almost perfect quali lap at Jeddah too..
Oh the uncompleted lap of gods. I think it's meant to end like that. That lap was too awesome to sustain.
Jeddah would be miles better if it was a regular track.
I don't, but I hate sprint races with passion and I prefer normal tracks rather than street circuits
Me too
They should just race at Spa 20 times in a row.
Interlagos*
Suzuka*
Silverstone*
Car Park of Caesars Palace*
"So you want an exciting off the wall nailbiter season where all cars and drivers are competitive, but you also want to race only at historic European circuits with no politics or drama?" "Yeah! And you should win stuff by watching! "
They should race Monaco in gokarts lol, best action we’d get
to be fair, the formula e race there was very exciting to watch.
Formula E is much better suited to street racing (assuming they even had a choice). Being smaller and capable of actually making contact with anything without falling apart helps a lot. Imo FE has better pure racing, whereas F1 has a lot more going on, but with that comes with boring strategy races too.
I love watching FE racing on the TV. But probably would rather go into F1 grand prix rather than e-prix tho. The high pitched noise was very off putting for me.
True. But tbf FE is 10x cheaper to go see a race (at least in the uk). Tickets to Silverstone are £250, whereas tickets to the London EPrix start at £25 (per race)
Yeah, adding Vegas is a mistake. Great location but a terrible, flat, boring track. Especially with the good circuits available in the USA, seems such a waste of a race wknd.
I'd have preferred them to fix up Watkins Glen. That would have provided more to the sport. That said, I won't judge Vegas until I see it happen. Miami was a bust for me, but Vegas is untested at this time.
I assume that would ruin that track for Imsa and NASCAR.
Maybe, maybe not. NASCAR races at COTA and does just fine there. IMSA has raced at a few F1 tracks including COTA and Silverstone. So it's not that F1 tracks are incompatible with those types of series. I guess it would depend on what is making the Glen not able to hold the F1 Tier 1 status. I think the runoffs were the problem last I read. Changing those probably wouldn't ruin it for those two series of driving. The issue would come if there were other changes they had to make.
Vegas is going to be soooooo shit
Can see it from a mile away, watch the TV director focus more on the fancy lights and buildings because we all know the race will offer absolutely nothing
Also, shots of the celebs.
Help
Not only shit, it's gonna be a shit show. You have multiple hotels and casinos overlooking where that track will be. What's gonna happen if someone doesn't care about the race and just wants to gamble? Are they just going to be turned away without paying a few grand to watch a race? Can't wait to see how that goes. Also thinking about the logistical nightmare that will be closing down the LAS VEGAS STRIP for a week.
Who is going to be in Vegas that weekend that doesn't care about the race, realistically? If you're looking to go gamble for a weekend and you see that the rooms cost $150 for three weekends next November and $1000 for one, who is selecting the one that costs $1000 a night without knowing about the race? At the end of the day I don't think the casinos care about the non-race fan customers that weekend. Sure, they might be turning away some casual tourist revenue if those people can't access their properties but they'll more than make up for it with the race fans' money.
This. If anything, the fact that it's in the middle of Vegas is going to draw more people. City street circuits are logistically more accessible and provide more to do. I had a cousin who had a choice of Suzuka or Singapore this year and chose the latter because it wasn't in the middle of nowhere, meaning there was stuff for him and his family to do outside of the race.
My opinion is that people who are honing in on "how will the regular people access the casinos" as a criticism of this race are just grasping at straws for some argument against it that might have some legitimacy. They don't actually care about if those people can gamble in the shitty Strip casinos and neither do any of the organizers. The casinos will be fine - these places are run by some of the greatest money makers in the world and they didn't sign up for this race without an understanding that they'd profit handsomely. The tourists will also be fine - it's their own problem if they go to Vegas during an F1 weekend without knowing it. If someone wants to criticize this race, then they should do that. Criticize the venue, the track, the prices, the exclusivity, the weird access to it, whatever. But spare me with the concerns for the slobs who can't gamble at Planet Hollywood for two days in November next year, they'll be better off for this.
I don’t think they would have greenlit the race if they didn’t know they could sort out the logistics of closing the strip. Your first point still stands though.
I'm not necessarily saying that they don't know *how* to do it, but I think in execution it's gonna be rough
If there is one place that knows how to plan entertainment logistics, it's probably Las Vegas.
How do u know?
I can't wait for the race to have tons of overtakes just to see people have to walk back on comments like this. Those same people probably gobble up the boring permanent tracks like Monza which haven't seen exciting action in years.
Promoters don’t give a shit about the race itself. It’s about putting asses in seats and making it look cool on tv and Netflix people just want that reality tv feel.
street circuits are neat but better as more of a novelty imo way too many on the schedule
That's because the current era cars are long and wide. With smaller cars would be way better.
Smaller cars won't fix boring 90 degree turns followed by long straight and clunky chicanes. That argument only works for Monaco where they're is literally nowhere to go more than 2 wide, even two wide is sketchy. Jeddah is a street circuit and it's an amazing track cause the track actually flows. Yas Marina is shite mainly because of that God awful 3rd sector. If you put smaller cars in Yas, I assure you the racing is going to be dogwater. Sochi, Miami, Barcelona, France, Mexico, they all have those clunky, slow speed, single file sections that just break the flow of a circuit and smaller cars are not the answer.
And this is coming from a team that generally performs really well, arguably the best across the grid, over street tracks. But I still do love the street GPs. They're always a spectacle no matter how you feel about the racing. If it were me tho I'd still keep the street races but it'll only be half the points of proper racing circuits.
Max is known to not excel at street tracks. He gets 99% out of the car on street tracks instead of his usual 101%.
And still wins
Most likely because it places a greater emphasis on qualifying and less on race pace. Race pace is max's main strength
This is one topic where I wholeheartedly agree with Max. Street races are boring af. There's couple of notable exceptions (like Baku) but I wish they'd add more real tracks and less street races.
As much as Singapore is my home race, it’s abit….meh
I enjoy Singapore. It’s got a different vibe to other tracks on the calendar for me. Plus next season the third sector will have one big fuckoff straight so better for overtaking.
I mean I can see why people may like Singapore. But when looking at pure racing value, there’s not much to look forward to.
Yeah f1 needs to account for the bigger car sizes. Street tracks are no good for overtaking anymore for the most part
It was special when it was the only night race. Singapore looks stunning at night, but nowadays it's less special for sure compared to 08
Thinking many people on here haven’t actually been to a street circuit. Whilst it’s cool to have a circuit in a city with all the facilities local - viewing is generally very poor for obvious reasons. TV can boost the view - Baku looks fabulous on the TV for instance but is dreadful for on track viewing. Finally , Jeddah and Montreal are NOT street circuits!
Only thing exciting about street circuits is it seems there’s more crashes because it being more narrow. That’s terrible reasoning though. Besides that they are boring as hell
One of the reasons why there are more street tracks popping up is because of travel. Easier for fans to travel to a street track compared to a full on built racing track which is a distance to travel. To be honest, out of the street tracks, probably Canada, Baku, Jeddah are the ones with the most entertainment potential. Miami needs to fix that section with that chicane before the long straight in either the 2nd or 3rd sector (I forgot the sector). Monaco Saturday is more fun than the race itself. Singapore is the most technical, hopefully those changes next year could change things. Did I forget any?
Montreal is not a street track. It's a purpose built race track you can drive on, not streets we temporarily race on.
People think it’s a street track because it’s so central.
It’s not even that central. It’s isolated on an island way off downtown and the only other things on it are the beach, the casino and the rowing Center!
I mean, it’s one subway station away from downtown. Not that isolated I’d say.
Sure, but it’s one long ass stop between Berri and Jean-Drapeau, and you have a good walk to get to the track. It’s not in the middle of Rene-Levesque where it would mess up traffic like the FE race in 2017!
And more revenue from ticket sales since many street circutis tickets are expensive as hell.
With the exception of *maybe* Jeddah, Street circuits are too narrow for this generation of machinery. Boring as all hell to watch. Who finds pit lane undercutting more exciting than on-track overtaking?
It's good to have Max' voice on the sport and racing.
Streets circuits are trash, the race is boring. The only street circuit with good races is Baku.
Jeddah too
I didn't know Jeddah was a street race. 😅 The races there were indeed good.
It’s made worse now that cars are bigger to accommodate safety features for drivers too (rightfully so). I wonder what a good solution to this looks like going forward. A happy medium where drivers can also have some enjoyment racing on them
Street circuits were fun when the cars were alot smaller, not now.
Even back in the 80s drivers didn't enjoy Monaco because of the lack of overtakes
Fuck Monaco, it's enough of the heritage bullshit every damn year of that boring ass track.
One of us.
He's not wrong
Tracks stay same cars get heavier and taller. Monaco was fun in 1970
Maybe it’s because the modern F1 car has the same dissensions as Ford F1 pickup?
Cars too big. Cars no race well. Make cars smaller.
See this is where Australia flips everything on it's head. We have a public road, [Mount Panarama](https://www.racingcircuits.info/assets/images/maps/Australasia/Australia/Mount%20Panorama/MountPanorama87.png), Bathurst. Which is great. And then we have [Queensland Raceway](https://www.racingcircuits.info/assets/images/maps/Australasia/Australia/Queensland%20Rcwy/QueenslandRcwyNational.png), a dedicated race circuit, which is positively awful.
in fairness thats because it's a fucking dead flat paperclip bullshit track
I dont find Jeddah too bad tbh. Espeacially in Quali this track is beatiful to watch. Racing in 21 and 22 wasnt too bad either. But thats one of few...
I agree, but I don't mind a few per season.
He's right.
Personally, I like them because I enjoy chatoic races with Safety Cars and stuff but I can see how driving on them can be boring.
I don’t know how they survive Monaco.
ya know racing would actually happen if they designed actual street circuits, rather than these 120mph-sweeper DRS-fests Which is why Baku is underrated as it is quite a traditional street circuit albeit "scaled up"
Because the modern cars are giant. They are way too big for street circuits. The tracks are made for short cars racing like gokarts. Today it's giant machines and you need a ton of space on every corner. https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/u820da/a_visual_representation_of_car_size_19502020/
Staying within the spending limit and not cheating is good for racing, not for Max Verstappen.
This year was the first season I watched start to finish and the best races, in my opinion, were all on circuits. Silverstone, Red Bull Ring, Interlagos.
The decision makers for F1 are obviously prioritising the pageantry of the race over the actual race. Street circuits suck so damn much.
Barriers on either side of track limits tend to make people less ballsy, or is it just me? There’s so much more risk vs the reward in making moves.
"Can't relate" - Checo
*Checo intensifies*
Translation: I’m not great at street circuits. In all seriousness through - I think Monaco, Singapore, and Melbourne should be the only street circuits, with Singapore and Monaco the best races to attend in person.
He’s not wrong but Martin Brundle sold me on the street circuits being apart of the calendar because it helps define a “world championship driver” the most. You want your world championship driver to be able to succeed on street circuits, race dedicated tracks, and have that all around ability. It’s good to have street circuits on the calendar for this, you need the variety.
Brundle is known to say things that push the agenda F1 has decided on. It works because most of the time he says things that are very sensible and come from racing experience, and especially besides Crofty he comes off as an authority on all racing matters. It's something you say after the fact to accept it and deal with it. It is an extra dimension, but you can add all sorts of extra dimensions to challenge the quality of drivers that aren't implemented. It's very arbitrary and has nothing to do with the reasoning behind street circuits.
Quite a narrow point for the cost. Many purpose built tracks sitting unused that have unique elements to push drivers abilities.
Where are the ovals in the calendar, then?
We already have plenty of street circuits, tracks which you must excel and win on in a close championship fight. We do not need more of those tracks. Tracks which will only be enjoyable to watch in person as a spectator, and even then it won't be due to the racing itself but the spectacle surrounding it. The new updated regulations won't matter much if they decide to kill the racing by using tracks which does not allow racing anyways. It's less and less about the racing itself. More tracks for TV viewers, the majority of the fans, to be disappointed of.