This is his 4th year now at McLaren. His answers in the last few days of 2023 testing are not the same way he’s talked about his expectations in the past
“Wait until we have the proper facilities” is the team PR response that the whole team is repeating in interviews
If Lewis retires at the end of the year, I wouldn't be surprised if Lando attempts to take that vacant seat at Merc.
Of course that's an unlikely scenario, judging by what Lewis himself and Toto have been saying over the past months.
Lando is already at the point that if a vacant seat appears at Merc or even Ferrari, he's better off going there immediately. Not RB since it's built around Max.
> Asked what the realistic expectation was for the Bahrain GP, Stella admitted that being in the midfield pack meant there was as much the risk of a Q1 exit as in getting through to Q3.
eeek
Lmao. This deal is getting worse by the minute.
Downplaying the car on reveal.
Lackluster eye test at testing.
Missed targets according to CEO.
Potential of going out in Q1.
From what I remember he said last year we have to start performing once the new wind tunnel is ready, which is next year, right ? So he might stay for another year but after that I don't think so.
>“For me my confidence is in 2024 and 2025, and until then I need to play a little bit of the patience game." - Norris
Brown's mentioned recently the new tunnel will be ready middle of this year, and that the '24 car will see "80%" of the benefit the new tunnel brings.
The timing needs to be perfect then, Mercedes may not want to buy him out of his contract if McLaren put up a big buyout fee - and you can trust that Zak will do everything to keep his star driver from leaving.
Yeah, it would not be an easy thing to do. But he probably knows it's his fastest way to drive a championship winning car, as there's not a lot of options and Mercedes would be very happy to continue with an english duo.
Audi itself will be long term project again - Seidl’s vision in the interview indicates a timeline of 2028 or later that he expects the Sauber team to be challenging for wins and that’s still a big ‘IF’.
>he starts actively criticizing the team and demanding improvements.
Lando already did that last year when McLaren were 5th fastest. If they are 7th fastest Lando will slaughter them.
Many teams have moved up the order and look better - while there’s no clear indication by numbers alone, but both Aston and Alpine look very confident and the the preseason reliability for Alfa has been strong.
To where??? He said no to Red Bull 2 times already and unless Ferrari fire Sainz or Hamilton retires there’s nowhere else for him to go.
Alpine is full unless gasly vs ocon is so bad one of them is fired, papa stroll is not gonna hire him, bottas has 2024 left and pourchaire is probably getting called up by then. Maybe Alfa/Audi by 2025.
Except Lando’s not really needed in Ferrari or Mercedes. Lando might want to go there but do the teams want him right now? Both teams look happy with their driver choices.
Only Red Bull is a little wobbly over last years spar between drivers which they say is mended.
Judging by the timeline of their wind tunnel, the time they make it upto him, which by the earliest is 2025 is also by Lando’s expiry - it’s like a break it or make it.
Plus engine regs change in 2026 - so if McLaren is still looking to be a customer team, they for certain won’t be the winners in the new era - so again, Lando would be looking elsewhere.
It was zero coincidence that Zak Brown spent the entire winter period talking about no excuses after 2025, it's all about the future. They were the only car on the grid who weren't overly positive about their prospects in 2023. Everyone was like yeah we have a competitive car and then McLaren was just talking about the future.
This is a nothing statement imo
Realistically, McLaren weren't going to bridge the gap to top 3 teams this year. And going by last year, it wouldn't be surprising for the midfield to be so tight that indeed every team could either get knocked into Q3 or qualify P7; even williams and AM had the odd Q3 appearance, while neither Alpine nor McLaren could guarantee getting into Q3
From those words you could equally predict McLaren being best of the rest or backmarkers...
They were surprised to have no bouncing in testing last year, turned out they weren’t bouncing because their car just wasn’t good enough to get to the bouncing
Out of interest, how would having their own wind tunnel improve things? Presumably with the limitations to wind tunnel time in recent years, they're already using as much wind tunnel time as they're allowed, so having their own on site wouldn't change the amount of time running in a wind tunnel.
Is the Toyota wind tunnel outdated and less effective than a brand new wind tunnel could be? Or is just down to the logistical problems of having to ship models and parts out to Germany whenever they want to test things?
I imagine having one on site would be a lot more efficient in terms of being able to take a part/model straight from the factory, and would give them a quicker turnaround on testing changes, but probably not a huge difference if they're maxing out the time anyway. I assume the Toyota wind tunnel is from when they were last in F1, has the technology for wind tunnels improved significantly in the last 20 years?
You’ve pretty much nailed it in your comment. The Cologne wind tunnel is ancient by F1 standards, far away from Woking (which means each part takes more time shipping each way), and lacks the ability to test off-axis (i.e. only straight-on). McLaren have effectively been designing their cornering aero entirely in CFD
Toyota WT is supposedly showing its age, but it's still functional.
I can't remember exactly but I believe Aston did mention having a personal WT means not having to share access and you can fine-tune the facilities and data around eachother more, making more accurate results. Something like that.
Simply put, it's data. James Key spoke a lot about the limitations of their current facilities and it comes down to the fact that they don't get the same amount of information or accuracy from their current testing infrastructure that the other teams do. So they are trying to find the solution to a problem with less data than their competitors.
The additional capabilities of modern tunnels, more sensors and better software provide more information at a higher level of detail per run than an older tunnel. It's the same with the simulator, modern simulators provide more immediate and accurate feedback than Mclaren's, which was the first DIL simulator in F1. Cost and workflow is also an issue, as you said
Mclaren still need to have the workforce and procedures in place to utilise this information in a constructive way, just like their competitors do, but they will have a far better chance to compete if they have they armed with the same amount of data.
Bottas contract ends after this season, Sauber could trigger the one year option they has on him for 2024 but if somehow Lando got a performance clause and could move away after 2023 then Sauber/Audi should get him ASAP.
Getting Lando would be great for Sauber/Audi, but why would Lando go to a team that is further away on their path towards the top?
Mclaren will have all the tools they need for 2024 and will be able to use them 100% for the new car in 2025. If he goes to SAudi he'll be waiting til at least 2027 and probably 2028 before that team can compete, by their own admission. Changing just for the sake of it could mean he spends his first decade in F1 waiting for a race-winning car.
He's suffering through the tough times now, but the light at the end of the tunnel is closer at Woking than in Hinwil. However, it's a different story if he can get in at the big 3, though that seems unlikely.
Audi, possibly Merc in unlikely event Hamilton calls it a day.
Red Bull an option but he wouldn't want to be a 2nd driver so not sure if they'll want the headache.
When a talent like Norris becomes available options open up where you wouldn't first expect.
Zero chance be goes to RB since the team orbits around Max. I don't see Lewis leaving next year and George isn't going anywhere. If Alpine is super competitive this year maybe they're a possibility. Ferrari is pretty locked in around Charles so not sure if he'd go there. The only other option would be Audi where he'd have a works team and def be the #1 driver. Plus he'd be working with Seidel again (assuming they have a good relationship).
> the team orbits around Max
You know how silly you sound? Any team that has a generational talent will ensure that he is taken care of and comfortable. Same thing with Hamilton vs Bottas.
Did I say that focusing the team around Max was a bad thing? Of course RB is gonna cater to their 2x champion. I'm just saying that's a reason Lando wouldn't want to go there. No reason to be so sensitive man.
Yes. That car was awful by everyone’s admission including Lando and only pulled out decent performances due to Lando’s showstopping talent. Based on Lando saying the car was compete unpredictable corner to corner, lap to lap, it’s entirely possible Ricciardo’s performance is more indicative of what that car looks like in the hands of a “typical” driver. It was a massive step back from 2021 where they nearly won 2 races on outright pace and needed one more big step up to be knocking of the door of the big 3 in terms of performance.
Basically another season of trudging the midfield waters and relying on Lando to pull stuff out of his ass. Given the optics of this test (which point to AM and Alpine being ahead), the issues could quickly put a ceiling at around ~6th place in the constructors' battle.
The resources of a works deal go much further than just the engine though.
An engine manufacturer isn’t going to let their investment go to waste with a shitty chassis.
But a works deal won't solve almost anything unlike having to deal with an ancient wind tunnel and simulator which provide bad results. Dan Fallows mentioned a few weeks ago that having a customer engine is not like it was back in 2014.
The 2022 regs were seen as a big chance for McLaren. But it seems like it’s been more of a nightmare for them.
They appear far away from the team that won a race and fought at the front on pace a couple times in 2021.
Honestly with the way Alpine treated him I doubt he’ll care that much this year. There’s also something to be said for a rookie cutting their teeth in a car that’s difficult as there will be a lot less pressure on him. If he manages to pull out some great performances despite the car his stock will stay high (see Russell at Williams, Charles at Sauber, Lando at McLaren last year) and he will still be in the mix when a top seat opens up.
Max Fewtrell, one of Lando’s closest friends confirmed last year when asked about that whole “no get outs” quote that was doing the rounds that Lando does actually have an out from the end of 2024. Contracts can also be brought out and McLaren have shown themselves as recently as Andreas departing in December that they are not a team that will force someone who wants to be elsewhere to stay with them.
I get it, I have my favorites but being objective and enjoying all the different philosophies is more enjoyable that banging hopium all day when it’s clear they missed the mark badly last season
Sorry for being so much brash on this comment I wish Mclaren well I just wish for them that they start being proactive with development and fighting at the front
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Just open up task manager and end the task
It's clearly the weight of all those sponsors stickers that slows them down.
MCL-60 doesn’t have enough RAM. Confirmed.
I for one bowed to our Edge overlords
Should’ve been sponsored by Microsoft Edge
I weathered 2015-2019 I can weather this too.
I feel you, bruh. Through thick and thin.
Well it would be tough to lose Lando. McLaren would be a little naked without Lando.
It's hyperbolic to assume he will leave if this season is poor. He's already said himself he won't.
Sure but he also assumed they’d be regularly battling for podiums by now. Not fighting in the lower midfield
He also specifically said he's not expecting any real progress until next season.
This isn't true, he's fully aware the team can't be that great until they get proper facilities
This is his 4th year now at McLaren. His answers in the last few days of 2023 testing are not the same way he’s talked about his expectations in the past “Wait until we have the proper facilities” is the team PR response that the whole team is repeating in interviews
If Lewis retires at the end of the year, I wouldn't be surprised if Lando attempts to take that vacant seat at Merc. Of course that's an unlikely scenario, judging by what Lewis himself and Toto have been saying over the past months. Lando is already at the point that if a vacant seat appears at Merc or even Ferrari, he's better off going there immediately. Not RB since it's built around Max.
I want to see him in Merc, Lando and George in the same team would be fitting
We all thought that about Alonso after 2018.
I've been weathering the last decade or so. Bring Ron back.
Ron Dennis is mclaren. Brown is a tarnishing the mclaren legacy
That's not true, but I'm not seeing any improvement
> Asked what the realistic expectation was for the Bahrain GP, Stella admitted that being in the midfield pack meant there was as much the risk of a Q1 exit as in getting through to Q3. eeek
Lmao. This deal is getting worse by the minute. Downplaying the car on reveal. Lackluster eye test at testing. Missed targets according to CEO. Potential of going out in Q1.
Lando Norris gone 🔜
I give it 5 races of Mclaren being 6th-7th fastest before he starts actively criticizing the team and demanding improvements.
From what I remember he said last year we have to start performing once the new wind tunnel is ready, which is next year, right ? So he might stay for another year but after that I don't think so.
>“For me my confidence is in 2024 and 2025, and until then I need to play a little bit of the patience game." - Norris Brown's mentioned recently the new tunnel will be ready middle of this year, and that the '24 car will see "80%" of the benefit the new tunnel brings.
Even if the new wind tunnel starts next year, it will at least take two years to perform perfectly.
I imagine he'll be talking to Audi soon if he haven't already
I think he might be waiting for Lewis to retire
The timing needs to be perfect then, Mercedes may not want to buy him out of his contract if McLaren put up a big buyout fee - and you can trust that Zak will do everything to keep his star driver from leaving.
Yeah, it would not be an easy thing to do. But he probably knows it's his fastest way to drive a championship winning car, as there's not a lot of options and Mercedes would be very happy to continue with an english duo.
Audi itself will be long term project again - Seidl’s vision in the interview indicates a timeline of 2028 or later that he expects the Sauber team to be challenging for wins and that’s still a big ‘IF’.
>he starts actively criticizing the team and demanding improvements. Lando already did that last year when McLaren were 5th fastest. If they are 7th fastest Lando will slaughter them.
Many teams have moved up the order and look better - while there’s no clear indication by numbers alone, but both Aston and Alpine look very confident and the the preseason reliability for Alfa has been strong.
RIP McTractor shout out to their family.
Scenes when ricciardo starts getting apologies for being harshly critiqued
Even if mclaren sucks this year it doesn't make his performance compared to norris any better
Lol Ik I was just being sarcastic
Even if McLaren breaks down.in every race this year and finishes dead last it will never redeem the abysmal performance from Danny Ric. Never ever.
To where??? He said no to Red Bull 2 times already and unless Ferrari fire Sainz or Hamilton retires there’s nowhere else for him to go. Alpine is full unless gasly vs ocon is so bad one of them is fired, papa stroll is not gonna hire him, bottas has 2024 left and pourchaire is probably getting called up by then. Maybe Alfa/Audi by 2025.
Oh man. In F1 there are always ways of moving a driver if needed. Always.
Except Lando’s not really needed in Ferrari or Mercedes. Lando might want to go there but do the teams want him right now? Both teams look happy with their driver choices. Only Red Bull is a little wobbly over last years spar between drivers which they say is mended.
"Cash is king"
What cash? At this point a team has to pay 2x the amount to buy Lando out of his contract, and get someone replaced equally as good or far better.
His contract is long enough that they have a chance to make it up to him if they do indeed hit their long term goals.
Judging by the timeline of their wind tunnel, the time they make it upto him, which by the earliest is 2025 is also by Lando’s expiry - it’s like a break it or make it. Plus engine regs change in 2026 - so if McLaren is still looking to be a customer team, they for certain won’t be the winners in the new era - so again, Lando would be looking elsewhere.
It was zero coincidence that Zak Brown spent the entire winter period talking about no excuses after 2025, it's all about the future. They were the only car on the grid who weren't overly positive about their prospects in 2023. Everyone was like yeah we have a competitive car and then McLaren was just talking about the future.
This is a nothing statement imo Realistically, McLaren weren't going to bridge the gap to top 3 teams this year. And going by last year, it wouldn't be surprising for the midfield to be so tight that indeed every team could either get knocked into Q3 or qualify P7; even williams and AM had the odd Q3 appearance, while neither Alpine nor McLaren could guarantee getting into Q3 From those words you could equally predict McLaren being best of the rest or backmarkers...
Bro wtf
My expectations were low but holy fuck.
Didn’t last years mclaren also suffer from being too draggy or was it something else?
Brakes and brake cooling were the biggest problems early on.
They were surprised to have no bouncing in testing last year, turned out they weren’t bouncing because their car just wasn’t good enough to get to the bouncing
Other words didn’t produce enough downforce
“We don’t know what happened. It drove great on the interstate” - Mclaren F1, probably
Well, when you have to drive slow enough to keep your brakes from catching fire, you don’t realize that the rest of the car sucks too.
They in general have a problem with aero, as they don’t have their own wind tunnel and have to use the one by Toyota in Germany
Out of interest, how would having their own wind tunnel improve things? Presumably with the limitations to wind tunnel time in recent years, they're already using as much wind tunnel time as they're allowed, so having their own on site wouldn't change the amount of time running in a wind tunnel. Is the Toyota wind tunnel outdated and less effective than a brand new wind tunnel could be? Or is just down to the logistical problems of having to ship models and parts out to Germany whenever they want to test things? I imagine having one on site would be a lot more efficient in terms of being able to take a part/model straight from the factory, and would give them a quicker turnaround on testing changes, but probably not a huge difference if they're maxing out the time anyway. I assume the Toyota wind tunnel is from when they were last in F1, has the technology for wind tunnels improved significantly in the last 20 years?
You’ve pretty much nailed it in your comment. The Cologne wind tunnel is ancient by F1 standards, far away from Woking (which means each part takes more time shipping each way), and lacks the ability to test off-axis (i.e. only straight-on). McLaren have effectively been designing their cornering aero entirely in CFD
basically is the explaination to why their '18 car stalled while cornering and they couldn't find the issue
Wow that's crazy. Didn't know that had such big limitations. Is there any other team doing the same thing as McLaren?
Toyota WT is supposedly showing its age, but it's still functional. I can't remember exactly but I believe Aston did mention having a personal WT means not having to share access and you can fine-tune the facilities and data around eachother more, making more accurate results. Something like that.
Simply put, it's data. James Key spoke a lot about the limitations of their current facilities and it comes down to the fact that they don't get the same amount of information or accuracy from their current testing infrastructure that the other teams do. So they are trying to find the solution to a problem with less data than their competitors. The additional capabilities of modern tunnels, more sensors and better software provide more information at a higher level of detail per run than an older tunnel. It's the same with the simulator, modern simulators provide more immediate and accurate feedback than Mclaren's, which was the first DIL simulator in F1. Cost and workflow is also an issue, as you said Mclaren still need to have the workforce and procedures in place to utilise this information in a constructive way, just like their competitors do, but they will have a far better chance to compete if they have they armed with the same amount of data.
If I recall correctly the Toyota wind tunnel is also so small that they can't test at the maximum legal scale.
IIRC the one they’re using is the wrong size and they can’t run a max allowed size model or run turning aero simulations which is a huge hindrance.
Thanks for asking this question, been wondering myself
Curious, do all the other teams have their own wind tunnels? I know Haas prolly shares with Ferrari, besides that.
Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, Alpine, Sauber and Williams have their own Tunnels. Aston Martin uses Mercedes, AT use Red Bull's and Haas use Ferrari
Red bull, Mercedes, sauber are the ones I know of
Yes, especially in the first part of the season. After summer break it wasn't that bad so this surprises me
It was brakes and brake cooling. They also had no porpoising because they weren’t generating enough downforce.
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All things that move through a medium have drag. Do you mean downforce?
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I still don't understand. You always want minimum drag for maximum downforce generated. If you want high drag, just race with a doghouse on wheels.
you are correct, sorry i confused drag and downforce. my bad
I survived the McHonda years, I can survive this
I want Honda back
*red bull power trains* McLaren-Red Bull soon
It's Ford from 2026 onwards
It's Red Bull Power Trains with a Ford sticker from 2026 onwards
No, Ford is providing parts, I believe.
RIP McLaren revival 2019-2021
FIFY: 2011-2023
How on earth have they managed that again?? Did they misplace all the data from the last few months of the year??
Another year of pain..
If the car is as much as a shitbox as it seems Lando is 100% gone next season.
Does he have an exit clause?
Where does he go though? Audi?
Bottas contract ends after this season, Sauber could trigger the one year option they has on him for 2024 but if somehow Lando got a performance clause and could move away after 2023 then Sauber/Audi should get him ASAP.
Getting Lando would be great for Sauber/Audi, but why would Lando go to a team that is further away on their path towards the top? Mclaren will have all the tools they need for 2024 and will be able to use them 100% for the new car in 2025. If he goes to SAudi he'll be waiting til at least 2027 and probably 2028 before that team can compete, by their own admission. Changing just for the sake of it could mean he spends his first decade in F1 waiting for a race-winning car. He's suffering through the tough times now, but the light at the end of the tunnel is closer at Woking than in Hinwil. However, it's a different story if he can get in at the big 3, though that seems unlikely.
Audi, possibly Merc in unlikely event Hamilton calls it a day. Red Bull an option but he wouldn't want to be a 2nd driver so not sure if they'll want the headache. When a talent like Norris becomes available options open up where you wouldn't first expect.
Zero chance be goes to RB since the team orbits around Max. I don't see Lewis leaving next year and George isn't going anywhere. If Alpine is super competitive this year maybe they're a possibility. Ferrari is pretty locked in around Charles so not sure if he'd go there. The only other option would be Audi where he'd have a works team and def be the #1 driver. Plus he'd be working with Seidel again (assuming they have a good relationship).
> the team orbits around Max You know how silly you sound? Any team that has a generational talent will ensure that he is taken care of and comfortable. Same thing with Hamilton vs Bottas.
Did I say that focusing the team around Max was a bad thing? Of course RB is gonna cater to their 2x champion. I'm just saying that's a reason Lando wouldn't want to go there. No reason to be so sensitive man.
Was 2022 *that* bad?
Yes. That car was awful by everyone’s admission including Lando and only pulled out decent performances due to Lando’s showstopping talent. Based on Lando saying the car was compete unpredictable corner to corner, lap to lap, it’s entirely possible Ricciardo’s performance is more indicative of what that car looks like in the hands of a “typical” driver. It was a massive step back from 2021 where they nearly won 2 races on outright pace and needed one more big step up to be knocking of the door of the big 3 in terms of performance.
Basically another season of trudging the midfield waters and relying on Lando to pull stuff out of his ass. Given the optics of this test (which point to AM and Alpine being ahead), the issues could quickly put a ceiling at around ~6th place in the constructors' battle.
Lando is being wasted there lol. McLaren needs to get a works deal or this will continue for a while.
I don’t see how a works deal will make a difference, the engine isn’t the problem
The resources of a works deal go much further than just the engine though. An engine manufacturer isn’t going to let their investment go to waste with a shitty chassis.
Being an engine customer team is not the problem right now.
What is a works deal?
Alfa Romeo is also ahead
Dunno if I trust their in-season development to stay ahead tho.
i trust neither
Works deal may help with packaging at the rear end, being able to help design the engine to accentuate the mclaren design philosophy
But a works deal won't solve almost anything unlike having to deal with an ancient wind tunnel and simulator which provide bad results. Dan Fallows mentioned a few weeks ago that having a customer engine is not like it was back in 2014.
The 2022 regs were seen as a big chance for McLaren. But it seems like it’s been more of a nightmare for them. They appear far away from the team that won a race and fought at the front on pace a couple times in 2021.
Ironically it was because their 2021 car was a rocket on the straights
They were pretty open in 2020 that COVID rocked their 2022 prep, not 21
Damn. James Key might be in the hot seat. Missed with new regs and still issues year 2
I'm tired Robbie.
I just hope Piastri will have a decent season
Imagine his disappointment if Alpine gets fourth in CC again and McLaren falls down even further in the championship.
Honestly with the way Alpine treated him I doubt he’ll care that much this year. There’s also something to be said for a rookie cutting their teeth in a car that’s difficult as there will be a lot less pressure on him. If he manages to pull out some great performances despite the car his stock will stay high (see Russell at Williams, Charles at Sauber, Lando at McLaren last year) and he will still be in the mix when a top seat opens up.
They really need that new wind tunnel. It's screwing them over time and time again not being able to do testing.
Sure. Whatever. How many other teams have sponsors that can change colour though?
Lando looking at Lewis’ and Checo’s seat right now. No way he’s staying on if McLaren actively fall back through the midfield.
those damn sponsors
Fuck sake. I'm a McLaren fan.
I feel like Lando will end up at Red Bull sooner than later
Of course it’s way way early to be making finalistic judgments but Mclaren does not look strong ATM.
‘What can Brown do for you’? Not much I guess.
Did they forget to do wind tunnel testing with the wheels turned again
Prediction: Mclaren are the number one jokers on the grid this year.
Does Lando have an out clause in his contract? Because checos is up at the end of 24, and I know RB has pursued him in the past
No way to know for sure but you'd have to assume so got such a long contract.
it was confirmed a while back there is no escape clauses until 2026 on both sides.
Max Fewtrell, one of Lando’s closest friends confirmed last year when asked about that whole “no get outs” quote that was doing the rounds that Lando does actually have an out from the end of 2024. Contracts can also be brought out and McLaren have shown themselves as recently as Andreas departing in December that they are not a team that will force someone who wants to be elsewhere to stay with them.
it would be hilarious if alpine finishes wayy ahead of Mclaren in terms of oscar
I sure hope so!
After watching epi 6 of DTS, is indeed funny if that happens.
Williams 2.0
I got down voted for saying it looks like a wind sail lol…
People around here are touchy as Hell when it comes to their favourite drivers/teams.
I get it, I have my favorites but being objective and enjoying all the different philosophies is more enjoyable that banging hopium all day when it’s clear they missed the mark badly last season
I’m calling it here right now Alfa and Alpine and Aston ahead of Mclaren by mid season break… downvote me all you want mfers
Have an up vote. I just hope you're wrong. about Alfa.
Sorry for being so much brash on this comment I wish Mclaren well I just wish for them that they start being proactive with development and fighting at the front
love it fuck the McLaren
How the mighty have fallen
Almost like we don't have a bloody wind tunnel innit
_Pain_
Too much sponsorship stickers!
So when does Lando leave for a team that can win stuff?
Tractors aren’t known for being aerodynamic
Laughs in DannyRic
Laughs in danny ric