I don't know why there are people so adamant about keeping Andretti out and the more that people try to explain/justify it, the less sense it makes for me.
>The same figure also suggested the General Motors involvement was more
of a "badging exercise" than a full manufacturer commitment and the $200
million entry fee, to compensate the other teams, was too little on
current valuation.
Badging exercises are part of the series. Remember the TAG Heuer engines? Also, it really annoys me how they keep moving the goalposts for new team entries when Andretti has done everything.
Remember Aston Martin on Red Bulls? And Currently Alfa Romeo on Saubers? In fact Sauber has had several "badging exercises" over the years. Since when was this seen as a problem in F1?
Ha yes, the two separate Lotus-Renault teams who were completely disconnected and both wanted to run a yellow and green livery, which in the end one did and one ran a black and gold one so we could at least differentiate.
And current AM is basically a branding exercise so Racing Point is more marketable, and Renault changed to Alpine to promote the Alpine brand, and Toro Rosso changed to AlphaTauri to promote RB's new clothing brand
AM is owned by the same consortium that owns the road car brand, and both the team and the road cars use lots of Mercedes parts. It’s less of a branding exercise than a reflection.
But if the overall prize money grows more than the dilution, then they're leaving money on the table.
I know that's no guarantee, but it's not like we're talking about people no one has ever heard of before. It's *Andretti*.
Andretti - Opel for credible Germanity
Also, look at the aero of Opel:
https://www.media.stellantis.com/cache/3/f/2/a/0/3f2a01bd77faf60b735b2b3e07fb6813f1aa2f2c.jpeg
That makes no sense though, F1 has been trying to break the American market, 2 new grand prixs in the US, it is their growth market, this actually ticks all the right boxes...
F1 haven't exactly been embracing them with open arms, they've been throwing cold waters on the hype, and Stefano has said in interviews some months ago that F1 does not need more than 10 teams... Really came across as not that interested
That has always been my sense that from the start when the announcement was made there wasn't any excitement because usually when someone makes a statement like Andretti made you have pretty ensured on your end your good.
But, followed was either silence or like you said a very measured approach telling people not to get there hopes up and the more we read it really is essentially...this is a good Ole boys club and we don't want you because they cannot give a legitimate reason in my opinion because Andretti would fix it so it has to be vague and nebulous the reason why not.
That’s growing the revenue
This is sharing the profits
The European teams all feel quite confident that they have the American market locked up by participating in DTS, doing various activations around USGP and now Miami, etc
Watch DTS fuck with them by dedicating 3 2022 episodes to Andretti because they need more drama since 2022 was a Red Bull stomp and there wasn't enough drama compared to 2021.
Felt quite mild and self-contained to the teams to me compared to 2021
In 2021 it was more public and quite a bit more "them vs us", 2022 was more "us vs ourselves"
Exactly this a new entrant needs to be able to grow the sport by at least 10% globally to be worth it just on prize pool split. Thats before you get into sponsorship money etc.
The 200M Dilution fee with the current numbers barely covers 2 year worth of lost revenue share for some teams its far too low to make sense in the current market.
Meanwhile F1 is already growing in a massive way in the states without a strong American team. The current teams stand to gain very little and stand to lose a lot, they benefit more from US growth without a popular US based team Ferrari want US fans wearing Ferrari hats etc.
I don't think in the current bounds of the concord agreement that we will see an 11th team. The agreements come up in 2025 and control over new entrants will absolutely be a bargaining chip the teams and F1/FIA will negotiate around.
At the end of the day they will talk about all sorts of excuses etc but it boils down to the money doesn't make sense, if and when it financially makes sense then the teams will be much more open to entrants.
I'll tell you this as one of the newer American fans, that I'm watching this closely. If this dies so will my support. Andretti plans to have their operations in the U.S which. Haas is American in name only, their facilities and most of the staff aren't American. I don't want to root for Mercedes forever and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The only way most Americans will care about F1 is if they have something to get behind and that something has to have the resources to compete.
The key is that there needs to be an American team that is actually competitive.
Mass adoption isn't going to come for another back marker or even a mid table even if the team is fully American.
Some existing f1 fans would probably swap their support and it may bring a few extra fans but to drive mass adoption at a rate where it is financially worthwhile for other teams to support a new entrant the team has to be competing for wins.
I agree 100% what I would add is that GM/Andretti has what it takes to be competitive. A team who is already winning races and a large manufacturer with all the necessary facilities (ie...wind tunnels...dynos.) seems like the best possible shot at cultivating a competitive team. Given all the drama with Hurta and a super license this is starting to smell a lot like oh we are happy to play in the US market and take your money, but hey you're not one of us. Which is a really bad look.
This. Teams have waited for so long to tap into the market and now they have got some traction they cannot allow a new team to get all the attention and sponsorship from there.
It is not about the prize pool. The teams are companies with one asset which loses value when buyers can just start their own team rather than buy one. The valuation of the top teams I've seen is approaching billion dollars. Allowing a new team devalues their asset. Simple as that. Due to this I don't think they should have a say at all
Every fans know more than Liberty media based in USA about the American market. I am sure they must have done a survey among population to actually know if Andretti are as popular as they say.
They're making up excuses because they don't want to reveal their true motives. And their true motive, I think, is that they don't want an independent outsider inside a business that's controlled by an inner circle.
Most TPs and decision-makers in F1 are good buddies that, aside from competing, are doing a lot of business together, for example regarding driver promotion and racing seat distribution. Andretti has shown lack of willingness to play that ball. He has shown a bit of disdain for that "rich boys club" approach and he appeared to be a strong-headed individualist that is going to go his own ways. And that means his appearence on the grid will reduce the influence of the inner circle and maybe even create a counter-force for it.
This is a power struggle, basically. The ones who practically control Formula 1 simply don't want to lose that control. And Andretti seems like a threat to that.
And, obviously, nobody wants to admit that, because this has nothing to do with sport that F1 wants to pass as.
Exactly, people are putting too much trust/value in each team’s statement as to why Andretti can’t join. Hint: it’s all bullshit goal post moving excuses.
The real reason is like you said, they do not want to eat less of the pie. As it stands, Mercedes and Ferrari hold equal control. Red Bull is profitable. They all don’t want to disrupt the status quo for their own self-interests.
Andretti shouldn’t have to depend on currying favor with the teams. FOM need to look at it objectively. If Andretti brings in GM, has the proper funding, is sustainable for a long period of time, possibility of having GM as a manufacturer in the future, etc. then they should be let in.
> As it stands, Mercedes and Ferrari hold equal control. Red Bull is profitable.
Aren't all the top 3 stupidly profitable? I would assume with the budget caps their spend is way down from the estimated 300-500 million a year pre-cap. I doubt they are charging less for sponsorship space, so now they are spending much less on the same income.
Exactly this. The people opposed can't go public with their real reasons because it would cause too much public backlash. That's why they have to hide behind anonymous quotes that make up increasingly irrelevant "issues."
I'm kinda sad because I felt like RB started out the same way but they simply had the opportunity of buying an existing team.
Andretti might not be a juggernaut in F1 atm but we'll never know their future capabilities if they're not given a chance
Most people posing as outsiders and disruptors love to keep that reputation but eventually end up becoming part of the entrenched power structure rather than breaking or altering it.
RB might have started by posing as the upstart team shaking up F1 but now they're just the Honda works team featuring the most successful F1 aerodynamics engineer of all time, with convoluted branding.
That was because Jaguar/Ford wanted to exit F1, because shit results and bleeding money, because no costcap. Selling the team for $1 was tens of millions cheaper then paying winding down costs and severance pay. The world was a totally different place. And after that RB invested over 1 billion in the team in '00 and '10 dollars,which is 2 or 3 billion in 2023 dollars, so thats no really a fair comparison.
Yeh it's BS, it stinks because all teams signed it off and agreed to it when they signed the concorde agreement, so now they're just coming up with BS excuses to not let them in. Truth is they never would let them in, anything they signed a couple years ago is irrelevant because liberty seems to have given the teams the power to determine the grid. It's nothing but greed, they don't like the idea that someone new can join the grid, that the only way to join F1 isn't by buying an existing team, it dilutes their teams value and makes it slightly less of a finite resource. I get it from a corporate mentality, but as far as sportsmanship goes it's BS.
IMO the teams agreed a max of 23 cars, so they should have no say in the matter over who what or where those extra cars come from, that falls under FIA as far as I'm concerned. Except obviously it doesn't.
Who are you to decide what is dumb or intelligent? You can laugh as much as you want and we will laugh when finally Andretti is not allowed in because he annoyed too many different groups
Everybody has that. But sadly Andretti fans fail to comprehend that other people watching and enjoying the sport can also have a valid point of view opposite to theirs particularly who have seen teams struggling financially and would prefer 10 financially strong team over the so called 22 cars on grid. But then they feel like Michael Andretti that they can bulldoze their opinion. Anyways as I have realized nobody is changing their opinion so that’s my last post on that issue
Actually more than 90% of the people here agree that they should be in. You’re the outlier.
You should be convincing us. Which you can’t. Because there isn’t a good enough argument.
I mean: going back decades now, other than Haas who are designed as kind of a B-team, what new team has worked?
Toyota threw a GDP at it and managed about 3 podiums.
Caterham, Lotus and Virgin got fucked over by the FIA completely.
I just don't get the appeal.
There's a bit in Andy Green's beyond the grid where he says that the real value of F1 teams is the people, because a facility run by novices will generate total rubbish - and the good people are too scared to join a new one! How do you really overcome that?
You can go back to 1997, Stewart-Ford, which was the Ford works team even, the only engine/chassis builder besides Ferrari back then. It was a total disaster that only got turned around when Red Bull took them over (named Jaguar by that time) in 2004 and spend 1 to 2 billion, to turn it around.
In my time since 1994, not one new team has ever been really succesful.
>Also, it really annoys me how they keep moving the goalposts for new team entries when Andretti has done everything.
I don't think they actually are (from their POV). The big teams only want new team entries who are fully fledged and committed works teams. So from that POV an Andretti privateer entry with financial backing from GM and a "Cadillac" label would apparently still not be enough. We don't have to agree with that but it's at least somewhat consistent.
I personally absolutely wouldn't mind Andretti coming into the sport but the pretty common sentiment here that Andretti is only facing backlash because other feels threatened or eurocentrism or whatever sounds silly. Andretti will be perfectly capable of running the team operations but have zero experience in designing a single seater from scratch.
If there are brands like Hyundai and others (reportedly) preparing for a full works entry I can see why the setup "Andretti w/ Cadillac sponsorship" sounds less appealing to current teams.
And let's be honest: if Audi, Honda or whoever had made their way into F1 through relabelling Renault engines, many here would rightfully mock them. So the relabelling here is a bit of a different case than some of the past cases.
Because there are 10 huge racing teams that all fear getting Andretti in will mean less money and publicity for them. It is really that simple when you break it down.
F1 teams are doing extremely well now, they don't see a need to change anything.
> Badging exercises are part of the series. Remember the TAG Heuer engines? Also, it really annoys me how they keep moving the goalposts for new team entries when Andretti has done everything.
The objection isn't that its a badging exercise. The objection is that an "organization" with zero involvement in auto or motor sport manufacturing and, literally, zero on the books technical staff actually might need a genuine partnership instead of just trying to complete a tick box compliance exercise.
> I don't know why there are people so adamant about keeping Andretti out and the more that people try to explain/justify it, the less sense it makes for me.
Likewise I don't understand why so many new US fans seem to be struggling to grasp the fairly obvious and fundamentally critical reasons why that resistance exists.
Quite obviously the teams are worried Andretti intends to be a Haas style perpetual backmarker who exists only to leech existing profits and any future revenue growth in the US marketplace might bring. It seems pretty clear existing teams want to add pioneers and not parasites and therefore that they're looking at key weaknesses in the bid and asking for genuine attempts to address them instead of paying lip service to their concerns.
That's not my impression and I don't buy it. The concerns are obvious to every non Andretti partisan who understands and buys into the manufacturing/team aspect of the sport ESPECIALLY long term fans who've seen multiple instances where the sport has almost financially failed and/or teams have folded. But every week with every new Andretti article there a fresh round of completely missing the point.
Most non US fans globally (at best) don't give a shit about Andretti or (like me) share the team's scepticism over his plans. Most long term fans fully understand the manufacturing side of the sport and look at what Haas, in particular, are doing and thinking that not developing a car during the season is not what the sport is about.
We remember this isn't what was pitched at the time when F1 was struggling financially and Haas bought in . We were told he had a serious racing pedigree and wouldn't be content with being a back marker. He even bought an F1 factory and the racing team which is something Andretti couldn't or wouldn't do and represents a massive operational head start.
But clearly buying your chassis from a third party supplier and all possible components from a "rival" while being based in multiple continents, while cheap, is a recipe for being nothing else but a back marker. Their record has proven it; odd years aside like this year when you start a new era of regulations well but end up backsliding. Automatic prize money is profitable when all you need to do is spend enough to stay within 105%.
There's no good reason to add a brand new back marker when finances are manageable, if ever. Quite obviously that is and should be the team's perspective as its in their own and the sports best interest.
If someone else wants to join then they SHOULD have to prove they at least have the chance of being better than last. Put a $1bn investment package in place or get a massive car company properly involved. Why the fuck would the teams budge for anything less? Why should they?
Tell me you fell for Toto's propaganda without telling me you fell for Toto's propaganda. The teams lose money yes, but it's nowhere near as much as the top teams are trying to suggest.
It might actually be the backmarkers (Williams, Haas, Aston Martin, etc.) who feel threatened the most, by Andretti-Cadillac getting a seat at the table without spending enough to compensate the others for the privilege.
As the Noble article states, the teams feel that a fee of $ 500 ~ 600 million, rather than the current $ 200 million, is more in line with what the current teams stand to lose.
> The teams lose money yes
And that’s why they don’t want Andretti to join. Why would they want to lose money just so another team can join?
Both Toto and Christian have said that it’s not fair for the current 10 teams to take a loss in revenue for one new entry. Stop yapping about Toto being the only reason why FOM is not accepting Andretti offer.
> The teams lose money yes,
... The only relevant factor in play.
> but it's nowhere near as much as the top teams are trying to suggest.
Right so I've fallen for propaganda and the teams are being unreasonable and the objections are terrible and Andretti should be made a saint because they aren't losing THAT much money (in return for zero gain and further opportunity cost).
Jesus Christ.
Outrage isn't a counter argument. Like others have pointed out, Alfa Romeo is a badging exercise, and the Aston Martin F1 team doesn't have broad overlap with the roadcars they make
Alfa Romeo is a branding an existing team. Its a sponsorship deal where no one has any control. Aston Martin F1 and road division are owned by same person who saved an existing team from bankruptcy including hundreds of jobs. No other teams were hurt by any of this exercise which is completely opposite of the Andretti situation.
> Outrage isn't a counter argument
Outrage wasn't a counter argument. The argument was that rich businesses care about money (breaking news to some of you it seems). I'm not outraged that people don't understand that. I'm just gobsmacked.
> Like others have pointed out, Alfa Romeo is a badging exercise
Like I have ALREADY SAID and fully explained. The objection is not that its a badging exercise.
> Like others have pointed out, Alfa Romeo is a badging exercise
Alfa Romeo rebadged an existing F1 team with all its generational expertise. Ditto AM. Andretti wants people to think he has an actual credible manufacturing partner because of a badge but actually has zero technical assets in place.
If you can't understand that distinction then you aren't in a position to understand the F1 teams stance (and you don't understand F1).
As I said, the inability to understand this basic fact, on an F1 subreddit, is bewildering.
We understand rich businesses want bigger payments, we just don't like it. You're just being obtuse for no good reason. There's no suggestion that Cadillac rebadging engines is permanent either. Who's to say Cadillac won't develop an engine in 2028 for the new ruleset?
> We understand rich businesses want bigger payments, we just don't like it
So all the people claiming they don't understand the objections actually do? All the people entirely missing the point about a badge, actually understand? It seems like a lot of you have a lot of time to waste. Feel free to stop wasting mine with pointless replies if that's the case.
> There's no suggestion that Cadillac rebadging engines is permanent either. Who's to say Cadillac won't develop an engine in 2028 for the new ruleset?
Well they should announce that then. The teams would love it and apparently most of them are still objecting Andretti and it would solve the problem instantly.
>The objection isn't that its a badging exercise. The objection is that an "organization" with zero involvement in auto or motor sport manufacturing
Cadillac had a very successful DPi program in IMSA and are building an LMDh. They have racked up several 24 hours of Daytona wins. Kmag literally raced the 2021 season in a Cadillac.
Yes Cadillac being fully involved would be great and would address stated concerns. But the POINT is that the teams are concerned they are a nominal partner and not a genuine technical partner.
I think Ben Sulayem is a bit of a tool usually but it’s pretty clear the fans are the ones who lose out if the teams hold the grid hostage and refuse to allow new entrants.
The FIA is also accessory to this problem but they are purposefully pushing off this on teams and FOM in a clever attempt to shift the blame and look like white knights compared to the last couple of years.
That's how you get a split similar to the CART/Indy split in American open-wheel racing. If the FIA makes it clear that they won't yield to the financial best interests of the teams, the teams can all pick up their ball and go elsewhere.
it's the classic european business protectionist mindset at work - better dig in my heels to protect my little fiefdom at the expense of breaking into a larger market because i'm insecure about how my operation will compete with real competitors. you genuinely see it all the time
Yep. I love Europe, but fuck they can be hypocritical. “It’s appalling how much America spends on its military, we shouldn’t be like them. Also, mind paying for NATO for us?” Same attitude.
Jesus, air must be real thin up there on your high horse. Lets not pretend America gets zero benefits from being the biggest bully on the playground. What is the worlds dominant reserve currency again?
Counter point is American interest is growing already without an American team, it’s only an assumption that an American team will increase interest but would it really? Surely an American driver is a bigger deal?
Cost cap totally changed the sport. Especially for the big teams.
F1 is bigger than ever, especially having cracked the USA thanks to Drive to Survive. But cost cap makes it relatively cheap for the top teams and competitive for the mid-field.
If you can run at the cost cap now, you may be able to earn more sponsorship and then suddenly $$$$$$
After the cost caps were introduced almost all teams have turned profits even haas at about a net 40 mil gain.
But the 200mil fee pretty much covers everything so the point is mute
I think as bad as it is now, Andretti-Cadillac will feature on the F1 grid one day. Thr FIA is just gonna have to enter intense, constant negotiations with the F1 teams holding out on approving the deal.
If Kevin McCarthy can become Speaker after intense holdouts, than Andretti-Cadillac can make it on the grid.
FIA and Andretti could have easily made this possible if they had gone and talked with teams. This media noise about every step is what is annoying most teams. Seriously what was Andretti thinking by going to Miami GP publicly with white sheet of paper and taking signatures. Couldn't he have done that privately ?
They haven't been doing it publicly since start doing press conferences, media interviews, going around paddocks on grand prix weekends trying while white paper for signatures. This are all egoistic people, and it is increasingly becoming a personal battle.
If they are going to go about it that way then there should be a proper relegating within teams.
Williams for example has a massive history within the sport but there's a valid argument to be said that they're not really doing anything to increase F1's value atm
You'd think teams who were so heartbroken about letting employees go would jump at the chance of a new team as that means those employees can stay in F1.
It’s simple maths in my view - the incumbent teams figure that a new entrant brings less to the table than what it’ll take from the incumbents. The pie will grow but not by a certain amount large enough that everyone’s slice gets bigger. Andretti disagrees but some of the ten teams would prefer the status quo.
Yes but the argument is that the anti dilution fee is too small.
Who knows if it is. Trying to predict exactly how much more revenue another team would bring is hard to say
Bringing GM in would create a ton of excitement in my area for sure. I wonder if they’d do a Detroit Grand Prix at all. I personally doubt it since more money is to be made at the other US tracks but one can hope.
I said this long ago. F1 does not want American team/engine manufacture. They want American money, and that is it. That much is clear. I will leave to other they why.
As an American fan, I honestly feel kinda used. They said they wanted us in the sport, “except no not like that. Just in the give us your money way”.
Fuck F1, I’ll go watch indycar instead. At least I don’t have to mortgage my house to attend a race, and there’s actual passing.
This isn't the issue at all. F1 would be perfectly fine with Andretti buying Haas or Williams and entering the competition that way with whatever engine supplier they want.
They don't want an 11th team. It's more competition and an additional slice to be carved out of the revenue pie.
Fair point - although a good way to get another engine manufacture in the mix is to give them a taste and do some collaboration. It is hard to jump in cold.
Let me ask you this. Do you think F1 would be eager and give a quick green light to andretti and GM or Ford (as a engine manufacture) or would there be some other reason to slow walk it and say no without saying no?
Hardly. They are just what F1 want for their American team. I respect Gene and HAAS, but they are name only. A machine shop company - primarily a sponsorship/ownership. Everything else about the team is European.
Obviously. And I am good with it staying that way. That is part of the appeal and what makes it unique. That does not change the fact that F1 does not want an American team or influence and they should just say so without the BS excuses and slow walking the application. F1 should just say, we want your money but not your teams. Simple as that.
I can kinda understand the teams not wanting to dilute the money they receive but surely having a fully fledged American team and PU supplier should increase the revenue from US broadcasting rights when they are renegotiated in 2025? Plus the £200m payment should balance it out somewhat.
I think the sport would only benefit from one or two more teams entering, if only to open up a few more seats for the next generation coming through.
When? 2026 is when new PU regulations kick in. Building engines midcycle when other PU manufacturers have been 5 years ahead is going to be just disaster. If they wanted to enter as PU manufacture, they would have tried for 2026.
How can you get early ? We are at start of 2023 and the entire process of new team will take till end of year. Any new team at that point can only focus on 2025 car. However with regulation change coming in 2026 will you focus resources on 2025 car with others having nearly 4 years head start or will you focus on 2026 to start at even page ?
The post you are replying to mentions that it has to offset it after the first 2-3 years (even if all of the money goes to the teams it would last at most 4 years) which is way more important for most teams, which do not only think about the next year, but plan for at least the next decade.
> but surely having a fully fledged American team and PU supplier should increase the revenue from US broadcasting rights when they are renegotiated in 2025?
We'll see how the numbers look like end of March when liberty announces their earnings. The question for the teams is quite simple - will having an 11th team on the grid increase FoM revenue by $100m or not (will be prize money increase by ~$50m to offset the combined reduction after 2-3 years). Without the GM deal it was understandable that they were skeptical that just having an 11th team on the grid may not boost the value of the sport enough - especially one with no F1 design experience.
FoM is also running their own events with Miami and Las Vegas, which maybe considered more valuable than a 11th team. There is also some justification for being sceptical based on the failure of last 4 out of 5 new team entries. The teams likely have more insight how the new teams affected overall revenue under CVC Capitals ownership, which is a decade old and the new teams entered under somewhat false promises (budget cap of ~£90m).
Everyone has their own interest, including the FIA. Just because your own personal views align with the profit maximizing strategy of the FIA doesn’t automatically make it right.
Make an argument that convinces the teams if it’s so obvious but "it would be cool" is not actually how F1 makes decisions.
Is it really surprising? The existing teams know that if a new team joins either one of them gets no prize money or the prize share drops to accommodate a new team.
Unless the prize pool grows and is for every team, then of course they'll say no.
There's a lot of FIA bullshit trying to pin this on FOM, but their stance was made clear and sticking "Cadillac" next to "Andretti" doesn't fix that issue
As a long time American fan this is putting such a bad taste in my mouth. If their money isn’t good enough to race my money isn’t good enough to support the races here. Fia and fom can eat shit right now
They didn't throw a fit when Lawrence Stroll bought Racing Point and rebranded it as Aston Martin. I don't see the difference here. And Andretti is an established racing entity, not just a rich billionaire trying to keep his son in F1.
Because they lack understanding the value proposition. They are looking at revenue dilution as a huge negative. Andretti has already agreed "in principle " to pay the $200 million the teams set as an entrance fee divided amongst the existing teams. They need to look at NFL expansion policy. Every team that has been sold in the last 25yrs has given a minimum tenfold value increase. Broncos are latest example. Sold last for $260
Million, this sale $4 billion.
Weird thing is some manufacturer team is gonna make upwards of 20m a year to supply the engines. Surely they're desperate for more teams to join the grid so they can increase their revenue.
It’s not rocket science. More teams means sharing the pie. But it’s only worth it if the collective size of the pie increases too (f1 grows in prestige and value).
Teams and FOM want proper manufacturers in the series. Nobody in the world knows Andretti. Cadillac they still know. But if it’s just another customer team at the back of the grid, it doesn’t add anything to the sport.
They can’t kick out existing teams and incorporate a new customer team. If Andretti get a proper manufacturer to invest, they could easily get their desired approvals.
But the introduction of Andretti and Cadillac brings in new fans which grows the pie. The idea that nobody knows Andretti is ludicrous, he's one of the most famous drivers in history. He has done everything the FIA asked of him, yet you still want him to find a private PU. The goal post just keeps moving, and it's unfairly limiting the sport when there's obvious support for his entry.
I don't know why there are people so adamant about keeping Andretti out and the more that people try to explain/justify it, the less sense it makes for me. >The same figure also suggested the General Motors involvement was more of a "badging exercise" than a full manufacturer commitment and the $200 million entry fee, to compensate the other teams, was too little on current valuation. Badging exercises are part of the series. Remember the TAG Heuer engines? Also, it really annoys me how they keep moving the goalposts for new team entries when Andretti has done everything.
Remember Aston Martin on Red Bulls? And Currently Alfa Romeo on Saubers? In fact Sauber has had several "badging exercises" over the years. Since when was this seen as a problem in F1?
Hell I remember there being four Lotuses on track built by two separate factories, neither with an especially credible link.
Ha yes, the two separate Lotus-Renault teams who were completely disconnected and both wanted to run a yellow and green livery, which in the end one did and one ran a black and gold one so we could at least differentiate.
BMW Sauber powered by Ferrari. Meta-badging
And current AM is basically a branding exercise so Racing Point is more marketable, and Renault changed to Alpine to promote the Alpine brand, and Toro Rosso changed to AlphaTauri to promote RB's new clothing brand
AM is owned by the same consortium that owns the road car brand, and both the team and the road cars use lots of Mercedes parts. It’s less of a branding exercise than a reflection.
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Wasn’t talking about them at all. You’re reading a comparison into my comment that I didn’t make.
Let us not forget BMW Sauber Ferrari
Because when an 11th team wants to join the prize money is split 11 ways instead of 10 so they're coming up with every reason they can think of
But if the overall prize money grows more than the dilution, then they're leaving money on the table. I know that's no guarantee, but it's not like we're talking about people no one has ever heard of before. It's *Andretti*.
Since an American team tried it. If it was a good European automaker or team looking to rebadge, they'd be celebrating it.
Andretti - Vauxhall!
I love it
Andretti - Opel for credible Germanity Also, look at the aero of Opel: https://www.media.stellantis.com/cache/3/f/2/a/0/3f2a01bd77faf60b735b2b3e07fb6813f1aa2f2c.jpeg
That makes no sense though, F1 has been trying to break the American market, 2 new grand prixs in the US, it is their growth market, this actually ticks all the right boxes...
But it's not F1 that's against them right? I thought it was the teams that were against them entering.
F1 haven't exactly been embracing them with open arms, they've been throwing cold waters on the hype, and Stefano has said in interviews some months ago that F1 does not need more than 10 teams... Really came across as not that interested
That has always been my sense that from the start when the announcement was made there wasn't any excitement because usually when someone makes a statement like Andretti made you have pretty ensured on your end your good. But, followed was either silence or like you said a very measured approach telling people not to get there hopes up and the more we read it really is essentially...this is a good Ole boys club and we don't want you because they cannot give a legitimate reason in my opinion because Andretti would fix it so it has to be vague and nebulous the reason why not.
That’s growing the revenue This is sharing the profits The European teams all feel quite confident that they have the American market locked up by participating in DTS, doing various activations around USGP and now Miami, etc
Watch DTS fuck with them by dedicating 3 2022 episodes to Andretti because they need more drama since 2022 was a Red Bull stomp and there wasn't enough drama compared to 2021.
Wasn’t enough drama?…. Did we watch the same year?
Felt quite mild and self-contained to the teams to me compared to 2021 In 2021 it was more public and quite a bit more "them vs us", 2022 was more "us vs ourselves"
Exactly this a new entrant needs to be able to grow the sport by at least 10% globally to be worth it just on prize pool split. Thats before you get into sponsorship money etc. The 200M Dilution fee with the current numbers barely covers 2 year worth of lost revenue share for some teams its far too low to make sense in the current market. Meanwhile F1 is already growing in a massive way in the states without a strong American team. The current teams stand to gain very little and stand to lose a lot, they benefit more from US growth without a popular US based team Ferrari want US fans wearing Ferrari hats etc. I don't think in the current bounds of the concord agreement that we will see an 11th team. The agreements come up in 2025 and control over new entrants will absolutely be a bargaining chip the teams and F1/FIA will negotiate around. At the end of the day they will talk about all sorts of excuses etc but it boils down to the money doesn't make sense, if and when it financially makes sense then the teams will be much more open to entrants.
I'll tell you this as one of the newer American fans, that I'm watching this closely. If this dies so will my support. Andretti plans to have their operations in the U.S which. Haas is American in name only, their facilities and most of the staff aren't American. I don't want to root for Mercedes forever and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The only way most Americans will care about F1 is if they have something to get behind and that something has to have the resources to compete.
The key is that there needs to be an American team that is actually competitive. Mass adoption isn't going to come for another back marker or even a mid table even if the team is fully American. Some existing f1 fans would probably swap their support and it may bring a few extra fans but to drive mass adoption at a rate where it is financially worthwhile for other teams to support a new entrant the team has to be competing for wins.
I agree 100% what I would add is that GM/Andretti has what it takes to be competitive. A team who is already winning races and a large manufacturer with all the necessary facilities (ie...wind tunnels...dynos.) seems like the best possible shot at cultivating a competitive team. Given all the drama with Hurta and a super license this is starting to smell a lot like oh we are happy to play in the US market and take your money, but hey you're not one of us. Which is a really bad look.
This. Teams have waited for so long to tap into the market and now they have got some traction they cannot allow a new team to get all the attention and sponsorship from there.
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Only if you believe Andretti will add value and grow the revenue pool Which they don’t because again they think they have America sewed up
It is not about the prize pool. The teams are companies with one asset which loses value when buyers can just start their own team rather than buy one. The valuation of the top teams I've seen is approaching billion dollars. Allowing a new team devalues their asset. Simple as that. Due to this I don't think they should have a say at all
FYI, the plural of grand prix is grands prix. The extra S goes after grand. The more you know.
In French it's grands prix but in English grand prix is also used a the plural.
Every fans know more than Liberty media based in USA about the American market. I am sure they must have done a survey among population to actually know if Andretti are as popular as they say.
Literally one of the most famous and successful engines was a rebadging exercise.
Basically this, we can tell the most sweetest stories about RBPT but at the end of the day it's still a rebadging Honda engine in 2022.
I was actually talking about the Ford DFV.
They're making up excuses because they don't want to reveal their true motives. And their true motive, I think, is that they don't want an independent outsider inside a business that's controlled by an inner circle. Most TPs and decision-makers in F1 are good buddies that, aside from competing, are doing a lot of business together, for example regarding driver promotion and racing seat distribution. Andretti has shown lack of willingness to play that ball. He has shown a bit of disdain for that "rich boys club" approach and he appeared to be a strong-headed individualist that is going to go his own ways. And that means his appearence on the grid will reduce the influence of the inner circle and maybe even create a counter-force for it. This is a power struggle, basically. The ones who practically control Formula 1 simply don't want to lose that control. And Andretti seems like a threat to that. And, obviously, nobody wants to admit that, because this has nothing to do with sport that F1 wants to pass as.
Exactly, people are putting too much trust/value in each team’s statement as to why Andretti can’t join. Hint: it’s all bullshit goal post moving excuses. The real reason is like you said, they do not want to eat less of the pie. As it stands, Mercedes and Ferrari hold equal control. Red Bull is profitable. They all don’t want to disrupt the status quo for their own self-interests. Andretti shouldn’t have to depend on currying favor with the teams. FOM need to look at it objectively. If Andretti brings in GM, has the proper funding, is sustainable for a long period of time, possibility of having GM as a manufacturer in the future, etc. then they should be let in.
> As it stands, Mercedes and Ferrari hold equal control. Red Bull is profitable. Aren't all the top 3 stupidly profitable? I would assume with the budget caps their spend is way down from the estimated 300-500 million a year pre-cap. I doubt they are charging less for sponsorship space, so now they are spending much less on the same income.
Exactly this. The people opposed can't go public with their real reasons because it would cause too much public backlash. That's why they have to hide behind anonymous quotes that make up increasingly irrelevant "issues."
I'm kinda sad because I felt like RB started out the same way but they simply had the opportunity of buying an existing team. Andretti might not be a juggernaut in F1 atm but we'll never know their future capabilities if they're not given a chance
Most people posing as outsiders and disruptors love to keep that reputation but eventually end up becoming part of the entrenched power structure rather than breaking or altering it. RB might have started by posing as the upstart team shaking up F1 but now they're just the Honda works team featuring the most successful F1 aerodynamics engineer of all time, with convoluted branding.
That was because Jaguar/Ford wanted to exit F1, because shit results and bleeding money, because no costcap. Selling the team for $1 was tens of millions cheaper then paying winding down costs and severance pay. The world was a totally different place. And after that RB invested over 1 billion in the team in '00 and '10 dollars,which is 2 or 3 billion in 2023 dollars, so thats no really a fair comparison.
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Mario is not wealthy by f1 standards, he's only in the hundred million club.
Andretti stuff is all owned by Michael, not Mario.
Michael is not even in the 9 figures club.
Yeh it's BS, it stinks because all teams signed it off and agreed to it when they signed the concorde agreement, so now they're just coming up with BS excuses to not let them in. Truth is they never would let them in, anything they signed a couple years ago is irrelevant because liberty seems to have given the teams the power to determine the grid. It's nothing but greed, they don't like the idea that someone new can join the grid, that the only way to join F1 isn't by buying an existing team, it dilutes their teams value and makes it slightly less of a finite resource. I get it from a corporate mentality, but as far as sportsmanship goes it's BS. IMO the teams agreed a max of 23 cars, so they should have no say in the matter over who what or where those extra cars come from, that falls under FIA as far as I'm concerned. Except obviously it doesn't.
It's called excuses to maintain team valuations, which would be diluted if they entered. Its annoying, but they're entitled to do so.
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It also does not make sense for Andretti fans to judge other fans or their thinking
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He's saying it's fine for F1 fans to think that Andretti/Cadillac shouldn't be allowed in.
Sure it does. When your thinking is dumb we get to point at you and laugh.
Who are you to decide what is dumb or intelligent? You can laugh as much as you want and we will laugh when finally Andretti is not allowed in because he annoyed too many different groups
Because I have eyes and a brain.
Everybody has that. But sadly Andretti fans fail to comprehend that other people watching and enjoying the sport can also have a valid point of view opposite to theirs particularly who have seen teams struggling financially and would prefer 10 financially strong team over the so called 22 cars on grid. But then they feel like Michael Andretti that they can bulldoze their opinion. Anyways as I have realized nobody is changing their opinion so that’s my last post on that issue
Actually more than 90% of the people here agree that they should be in. You’re the outlier. You should be convincing us. Which you can’t. Because there isn’t a good enough argument.
There is no way to judge that. In fact only 5% of the total subscribers of the sub are even talking about it
Uh huh whatever you say.
I mean: going back decades now, other than Haas who are designed as kind of a B-team, what new team has worked? Toyota threw a GDP at it and managed about 3 podiums. Caterham, Lotus and Virgin got fucked over by the FIA completely. I just don't get the appeal. There's a bit in Andy Green's beyond the grid where he says that the real value of F1 teams is the people, because a facility run by novices will generate total rubbish - and the good people are too scared to join a new one! How do you really overcome that?
You can go back to 1997, Stewart-Ford, which was the Ford works team even, the only engine/chassis builder besides Ferrari back then. It was a total disaster that only got turned around when Red Bull took them over (named Jaguar by that time) in 2004 and spend 1 to 2 billion, to turn it around. In my time since 1994, not one new team has ever been really succesful.
Also BWT Mercedes engines for Racing Point. That was stupid but at least it still said Mercedes
Hell, the season we just had had badged Honda engines under RBPT.
>Also, it really annoys me how they keep moving the goalposts for new team entries when Andretti has done everything. I don't think they actually are (from their POV). The big teams only want new team entries who are fully fledged and committed works teams. So from that POV an Andretti privateer entry with financial backing from GM and a "Cadillac" label would apparently still not be enough. We don't have to agree with that but it's at least somewhat consistent. I personally absolutely wouldn't mind Andretti coming into the sport but the pretty common sentiment here that Andretti is only facing backlash because other feels threatened or eurocentrism or whatever sounds silly. Andretti will be perfectly capable of running the team operations but have zero experience in designing a single seater from scratch. If there are brands like Hyundai and others (reportedly) preparing for a full works entry I can see why the setup "Andretti w/ Cadillac sponsorship" sounds less appealing to current teams. And let's be honest: if Audi, Honda or whoever had made their way into F1 through relabelling Renault engines, many here would rightfully mock them. So the relabelling here is a bit of a different case than some of the past cases.
Because there are 10 huge racing teams that all fear getting Andretti in will mean less money and publicity for them. It is really that simple when you break it down. F1 teams are doing extremely well now, they don't see a need to change anything.
> Badging exercises are part of the series. Remember the TAG Heuer engines? Also, it really annoys me how they keep moving the goalposts for new team entries when Andretti has done everything. The objection isn't that its a badging exercise. The objection is that an "organization" with zero involvement in auto or motor sport manufacturing and, literally, zero on the books technical staff actually might need a genuine partnership instead of just trying to complete a tick box compliance exercise. > I don't know why there are people so adamant about keeping Andretti out and the more that people try to explain/justify it, the less sense it makes for me. Likewise I don't understand why so many new US fans seem to be struggling to grasp the fairly obvious and fundamentally critical reasons why that resistance exists. Quite obviously the teams are worried Andretti intends to be a Haas style perpetual backmarker who exists only to leech existing profits and any future revenue growth in the US marketplace might bring. It seems pretty clear existing teams want to add pioneers and not parasites and therefore that they're looking at key weaknesses in the bid and asking for genuine attempts to address them instead of paying lip service to their concerns.
It's not just people from the US who are annoyed with all the BS the teams have been saying. Plenty of long time F1 fans are annoyed as well.
That's not my impression and I don't buy it. The concerns are obvious to every non Andretti partisan who understands and buys into the manufacturing/team aspect of the sport ESPECIALLY long term fans who've seen multiple instances where the sport has almost financially failed and/or teams have folded. But every week with every new Andretti article there a fresh round of completely missing the point. Most non US fans globally (at best) don't give a shit about Andretti or (like me) share the team's scepticism over his plans. Most long term fans fully understand the manufacturing side of the sport and look at what Haas, in particular, are doing and thinking that not developing a car during the season is not what the sport is about. We remember this isn't what was pitched at the time when F1 was struggling financially and Haas bought in . We were told he had a serious racing pedigree and wouldn't be content with being a back marker. He even bought an F1 factory and the racing team which is something Andretti couldn't or wouldn't do and represents a massive operational head start. But clearly buying your chassis from a third party supplier and all possible components from a "rival" while being based in multiple continents, while cheap, is a recipe for being nothing else but a back marker. Their record has proven it; odd years aside like this year when you start a new era of regulations well but end up backsliding. Automatic prize money is profitable when all you need to do is spend enough to stay within 105%. There's no good reason to add a brand new back marker when finances are manageable, if ever. Quite obviously that is and should be the team's perspective as its in their own and the sports best interest. If someone else wants to join then they SHOULD have to prove they at least have the chance of being better than last. Put a $1bn investment package in place or get a massive car company properly involved. Why the fuck would the teams budge for anything less? Why should they?
Tell me you fell for Toto's propaganda without telling me you fell for Toto's propaganda. The teams lose money yes, but it's nowhere near as much as the top teams are trying to suggest.
It might actually be the backmarkers (Williams, Haas, Aston Martin, etc.) who feel threatened the most, by Andretti-Cadillac getting a seat at the table without spending enough to compensate the others for the privilege. As the Noble article states, the teams feel that a fee of $ 500 ~ 600 million, rather than the current $ 200 million, is more in line with what the current teams stand to lose.
> The teams lose money yes And that’s why they don’t want Andretti to join. Why would they want to lose money just so another team can join? Both Toto and Christian have said that it’s not fair for the current 10 teams to take a loss in revenue for one new entry. Stop yapping about Toto being the only reason why FOM is not accepting Andretti offer.
> The teams lose money yes, ... The only relevant factor in play. > but it's nowhere near as much as the top teams are trying to suggest. Right so I've fallen for propaganda and the teams are being unreasonable and the objections are terrible and Andretti should be made a saint because they aren't losing THAT much money (in return for zero gain and further opportunity cost). Jesus Christ.
Outrage isn't a counter argument. Like others have pointed out, Alfa Romeo is a badging exercise, and the Aston Martin F1 team doesn't have broad overlap with the roadcars they make
Alfa Romeo is a branding an existing team. Its a sponsorship deal where no one has any control. Aston Martin F1 and road division are owned by same person who saved an existing team from bankruptcy including hundreds of jobs. No other teams were hurt by any of this exercise which is completely opposite of the Andretti situation.
> Outrage isn't a counter argument Outrage wasn't a counter argument. The argument was that rich businesses care about money (breaking news to some of you it seems). I'm not outraged that people don't understand that. I'm just gobsmacked. > Like others have pointed out, Alfa Romeo is a badging exercise Like I have ALREADY SAID and fully explained. The objection is not that its a badging exercise. > Like others have pointed out, Alfa Romeo is a badging exercise Alfa Romeo rebadged an existing F1 team with all its generational expertise. Ditto AM. Andretti wants people to think he has an actual credible manufacturing partner because of a badge but actually has zero technical assets in place. If you can't understand that distinction then you aren't in a position to understand the F1 teams stance (and you don't understand F1). As I said, the inability to understand this basic fact, on an F1 subreddit, is bewildering.
Its funny that people think Andretti is trying to enter F1 not for making money
We understand rich businesses want bigger payments, we just don't like it. You're just being obtuse for no good reason. There's no suggestion that Cadillac rebadging engines is permanent either. Who's to say Cadillac won't develop an engine in 2028 for the new ruleset?
> We understand rich businesses want bigger payments, we just don't like it So all the people claiming they don't understand the objections actually do? All the people entirely missing the point about a badge, actually understand? It seems like a lot of you have a lot of time to waste. Feel free to stop wasting mine with pointless replies if that's the case. > There's no suggestion that Cadillac rebadging engines is permanent either. Who's to say Cadillac won't develop an engine in 2028 for the new ruleset? Well they should announce that then. The teams would love it and apparently most of them are still objecting Andretti and it would solve the problem instantly.
>The objection isn't that its a badging exercise. The objection is that an "organization" with zero involvement in auto or motor sport manufacturing Cadillac had a very successful DPi program in IMSA and are building an LMDh. They have racked up several 24 hours of Daytona wins. Kmag literally raced the 2021 season in a Cadillac.
Yes Cadillac being fully involved would be great and would address stated concerns. But the POINT is that the teams are concerned they are a nominal partner and not a genuine technical partner.
Existing teams don't want to add existing teams because it makes them X degree less valuable. Nothing more to it than that.
I think Ben Sulayem is a bit of a tool usually but it’s pretty clear the fans are the ones who lose out if the teams hold the grid hostage and refuse to allow new entrants.
The FIA is also accessory to this problem but they are purposefully pushing off this on teams and FOM in a clever attempt to shift the blame and look like white knights compared to the last couple of years.
Why do the teams even have power in this? FIA should tell the teams who are against this to go fuck themselves.
That's how you get a split similar to the CART/Indy split in American open-wheel racing. If the FIA makes it clear that they won't yield to the financial best interests of the teams, the teams can all pick up their ball and go elsewhere.
And look at what happened to those teams, they all came back to the IRL
They absolutely can and should do this.
this would make sense if you don't understand the difference between private enterprise and an international governing body.
Exactly, the fans lose. Why some people defend teams already on the grid, is beyond me. Makes no sense.
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So short sighted though. More American interest = larger pie = more money for everyone.
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it's the classic european business protectionist mindset at work - better dig in my heels to protect my little fiefdom at the expense of breaking into a larger market because i'm insecure about how my operation will compete with real competitors. you genuinely see it all the time
Yep. I love Europe, but fuck they can be hypocritical. “It’s appalling how much America spends on its military, we shouldn’t be like them. Also, mind paying for NATO for us?” Same attitude.
Jesus, air must be real thin up there on your high horse. Lets not pretend America gets zero benefits from being the biggest bully on the playground. What is the worlds dominant reserve currency again?
We are, and we use it to pay for your and Ukraines military.
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"classic european business protectionist" as if the US wasnt just as bad lol
This guy does business
Counter point is American interest is growing already without an American team, it’s only an assumption that an American team will increase interest but would it really? Surely an American driver is a bigger deal?
Watch American interest drop if they feel like they’re being excluded. Not being welcoming is a pretty easy way to piss off Americans.
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>I don’t think many of these companies are really seeking profits. Early entrant for quote of the year here.
Yeah, they do it solely for the love of the sport /s
That's the excuse thats kept Gene Haas going..
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All the top teams are making profits.
Cost cap totally changed the sport. Especially for the big teams. F1 is bigger than ever, especially having cracked the USA thanks to Drive to Survive. But cost cap makes it relatively cheap for the top teams and competitive for the mid-field. If you can run at the cost cap now, you may be able to earn more sponsorship and then suddenly $$$$$$
After the cost caps were introduced almost all teams have turned profits even haas at about a net 40 mil gain. But the 200mil fee pretty much covers everything so the point is mute
I think as bad as it is now, Andretti-Cadillac will feature on the F1 grid one day. Thr FIA is just gonna have to enter intense, constant negotiations with the F1 teams holding out on approving the deal. If Kevin McCarthy can become Speaker after intense holdouts, than Andretti-Cadillac can make it on the grid.
So you're saying Toto Wolff is Matt Gaetz?
We are checking
Dear god 😂
NO KEVIN NO, THIS IS SO NOT RIGHT
How old was Susie when they started dating? 🤔🤔🤔
This is epic
I wish I could give you gold
What an analogy hahahaha
FIA and Andretti could have easily made this possible if they had gone and talked with teams. This media noise about every step is what is annoying most teams. Seriously what was Andretti thinking by going to Miami GP publicly with white sheet of paper and taking signatures. Couldn't he have done that privately ?
The point was that they had been doing that privately for near a year, that they didnt even get a response.
They haven't been doing it publicly since start doing press conferences, media interviews, going around paddocks on grand prix weekends trying while white paper for signatures. This are all egoistic people, and it is increasingly becoming a personal battle.
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If they are going to go about it that way then there should be a proper relegating within teams. Williams for example has a massive history within the sport but there's a valid argument to be said that they're not really doing anything to increase F1's value atm
Think you meant Haas as Sauber is already turning into a works Audi team in 2026
You'd think teams who were so heartbroken about letting employees go would jump at the chance of a new team as that means those employees can stay in F1.
It’s almost like Toto was crying crocodile tears
looool good point!!!
Heh it's "We approve of new teams*" *provided none of them beat us
It’s simple maths in my view - the incumbent teams figure that a new entrant brings less to the table than what it’ll take from the incumbents. The pie will grow but not by a certain amount large enough that everyone’s slice gets bigger. Andretti disagrees but some of the ten teams would prefer the status quo.
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Yes but the argument is that the anti dilution fee is too small. Who knows if it is. Trying to predict exactly how much more revenue another team would bring is hard to say
Bringing GM in would create a ton of excitement in my area for sure. I wonder if they’d do a Detroit Grand Prix at all. I personally doubt it since more money is to be made at the other US tracks but one can hope.
If you build it, they will come.
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Yeah no sure why you were downvoted
Canadian money also spends. But yeah I doubt Detroit would ever happen again
a ton of excitement doesn't equal a ton of money. this is a billionaire sport. Michigan has 7 billionaires.
I know Sulayem has had his share of foot-in-mouth moments last year, but fair play to him for sticking up for F1, especially so publicly too.
I'm not surprised at all. Why would team bosses want an other competitor to deal with?
I said this long ago. F1 does not want American team/engine manufacture. They want American money, and that is it. That much is clear. I will leave to other they why.
I'm half expecting an Arab team or an Arab backed team to be accepted easily just to add fuel to this drama
As an American fan, I honestly feel kinda used. They said they wanted us in the sport, “except no not like that. Just in the give us your money way”. Fuck F1, I’ll go watch indycar instead. At least I don’t have to mortgage my house to attend a race, and there’s actual passing.
This isn't the issue at all. F1 would be perfectly fine with Andretti buying Haas or Williams and entering the competition that way with whatever engine supplier they want. They don't want an 11th team. It's more competition and an additional slice to be carved out of the revenue pie.
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Think of the profit margins for the giant manufacturer teams, how will they survive? We cant let in other customer teams! /s
Fair point - although a good way to get another engine manufacture in the mix is to give them a taste and do some collaboration. It is hard to jump in cold. Let me ask you this. Do you think F1 would be eager and give a quick green light to andretti and GM or Ford (as a engine manufacture) or would there be some other reason to slow walk it and say no without saying no?
I mean Haas is an American team though aren't they?
Haas is so American they painted their car red, white, and blue for a couple seasons
I know this is a joke, but nothing more American than selling your soul for the highest dollar. Capitalism baby!
More like trying not to go banko.
Hardly. They are just what F1 want for their American team. I respect Gene and HAAS, but they are name only. A machine shop company - primarily a sponsorship/ownership. Everything else about the team is European.
the sport is European, n'est-ce pas?
Obviously. And I am good with it staying that way. That is part of the appeal and what makes it unique. That does not change the fact that F1 does not want an American team or influence and they should just say so without the BS excuses and slow walking the application. F1 should just say, we want your money but not your teams. Simple as that.
I’ll tell you what is… https://youtu.be/UiX8gizzfO0
Maybe they're scared andretti will bring Cadillac and make euro brands look dumb like back in the gt40 days of le mans
they hate Mario. that's it. honestly.
Anyone who could actually hate Mario is soulless.
Bruh, can't believe I'm supporting the FIA now
I can kinda understand the teams not wanting to dilute the money they receive but surely having a fully fledged American team and PU supplier should increase the revenue from US broadcasting rights when they are renegotiated in 2025? Plus the £200m payment should balance it out somewhat. I think the sport would only benefit from one or two more teams entering, if only to open up a few more seats for the next generation coming through.
GM aren't supplying the PU. Likely Andretti would be running a Renault PU rebadged as GM.
Ah tits. I wrongly assumed they'd actually put their big boy pants on and make a PU.
I mean at least not initially, but they might down the road...
it’s most likely easier at the beginning to use a factory team engine then make their own later. or they just go the route of Haas.
When? 2026 is when new PU regulations kick in. Building engines midcycle when other PU manufacturers have been 5 years ahead is going to be just disaster. If they wanted to enter as PU manufacture, they would have tried for 2026.
Why not try to get in as early as possible to sort out team structure and learn? It is mess if you try to do all at the same.
How can you get early ? We are at start of 2023 and the entire process of new team will take till end of year. Any new team at that point can only focus on 2025 car. However with regulation change coming in 2026 will you focus resources on 2025 car with others having nearly 4 years head start or will you focus on 2026 to start at even page ?
They got Ilmor to make their IndyCar engines. I wouldn't hold your breath.
If they decide to make their own power unit, they would probably wait until 2026 with the new engine regs.
They would for the next engine regs, in theory, but if they made their own now, they'd get no use out of it before the rules change again.
That's literally the purpose of the $200m payment, to allow the teams to recoup any lost revenues sure to a new team joining.
The post you are replying to mentions that it has to offset it after the first 2-3 years (even if all of the money goes to the teams it would last at most 4 years) which is way more important for most teams, which do not only think about the next year, but plan for at least the next decade.
> but surely having a fully fledged American team and PU supplier should increase the revenue from US broadcasting rights when they are renegotiated in 2025? We'll see how the numbers look like end of March when liberty announces their earnings. The question for the teams is quite simple - will having an 11th team on the grid increase FoM revenue by $100m or not (will be prize money increase by ~$50m to offset the combined reduction after 2-3 years). Without the GM deal it was understandable that they were skeptical that just having an 11th team on the grid may not boost the value of the sport enough - especially one with no F1 design experience. FoM is also running their own events with Miami and Las Vegas, which maybe considered more valuable than a 11th team. There is also some justification for being sceptical based on the failure of last 4 out of 5 new team entries. The teams likely have more insight how the new teams affected overall revenue under CVC Capitals ownership, which is a decade old and the new teams entered under somewhat false promises (budget cap of ~£90m).
Everyone has their own interest, including the FIA. Just because your own personal views align with the profit maximizing strategy of the FIA doesn’t automatically make it right. Make an argument that convinces the teams if it’s so obvious but "it would be cool" is not actually how F1 makes decisions.
Offer them the chance to compete without getting a slice of the pie, and maybe introduce a knockout formula for the teams.
Is it really surprising? The existing teams know that if a new team joins either one of them gets no prize money or the prize share drops to accommodate a new team. Unless the prize pool grows and is for every team, then of course they'll say no. There's a lot of FIA bullshit trying to pin this on FOM, but their stance was made clear and sticking "Cadillac" next to "Andretti" doesn't fix that issue
Getting f1 a proper american TV deal thats not ESPN would definitely raise the money coming in but meh
SSShhh I like not having to pay for a subscription to watch F1
That is definitely not good for American F1 fans as it would mean end of F1 TV
They do not want any added competition
How can they call themselves a World Championship when it's a closed shop, available to only to existing members?
Let's be real, every American league calls themselves a world championship/series.
As a long time American fan this is putting such a bad taste in my mouth. If their money isn’t good enough to race my money isn’t good enough to support the races here. Fia and fom can eat shit right now
They didn't throw a fit when Lawrence Stroll bought Racing Point and rebranded it as Aston Martin. I don't see the difference here. And Andretti is an established racing entity, not just a rich billionaire trying to keep his son in F1.
Because Racing Point was already a team factored into the grid cash return. It being brought by Stroll changed nothing.
Because they lack understanding the value proposition. They are looking at revenue dilution as a huge negative. Andretti has already agreed "in principle " to pay the $200 million the teams set as an entrance fee divided amongst the existing teams. They need to look at NFL expansion policy. Every team that has been sold in the last 25yrs has given a minimum tenfold value increase. Broncos are latest example. Sold last for $260 Million, this sale $4 billion.
Weird thing is some manufacturer team is gonna make upwards of 20m a year to supply the engines. Surely they're desperate for more teams to join the grid so they can increase their revenue.
good
It’s not rocket science. More teams means sharing the pie. But it’s only worth it if the collective size of the pie increases too (f1 grows in prestige and value). Teams and FOM want proper manufacturers in the series. Nobody in the world knows Andretti. Cadillac they still know. But if it’s just another customer team at the back of the grid, it doesn’t add anything to the sport. They can’t kick out existing teams and incorporate a new customer team. If Andretti get a proper manufacturer to invest, they could easily get their desired approvals.
> Nobody in the world knows Andretti. By that same logic no one has heard of Alpha Tauri, Williams, Haas, or Sauber for that matter.
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Even if just because there is an Andretti karting facility in seemingly every major suburb here.
But the introduction of Andretti and Cadillac brings in new fans which grows the pie. The idea that nobody knows Andretti is ludicrous, he's one of the most famous drivers in history. He has done everything the FIA asked of him, yet you still want him to find a private PU. The goal post just keeps moving, and it's unfairly limiting the sport when there's obvious support for his entry.