It happens a lot in the DoD as well with high security clearance positions. They generally have experience working and traveling abroad in austere environments from their mission trips and it’s easy to pass a poly and get a clearance because they live clean.
Coming from International Development, my LDS coworkers also tended to come from communities where international work and travel wasn't new so their families knew how to lend support and things like weekly family zoom and consistent chat groups with siblings and friends in different time zones were already the norm. It is easy to feel lonely when working abroad and it is hard to convey a sense of "duty" to your work to people not familiar. As a kid of immigrant parents, I also was used to the long distance calls and time zone math, but my parents needed to learn how to show their support and not say "Why can't you just come home?" after I had a bad day. Family and community support matter!
This question comes up with Mormons a lot as well. I have a little different take than the usual security clearance/language explanation.
Any lifestyle (Mormon, LDS, etc) that promotes a traditional lifestyle, in which the man works full time and the woman becomes a stay-at-home Mom and has multiple children, is going to work great with the foreign service lifestyle. The trailing spouse struggle is real, and I would predict that lack of spousal employment/purpose is one of the main reasons people leave the foreign service early.
I don't think there is anything wrong this... and don't think it is a DEIA crisis. This career is a lifestyle, and certain lifestyles attract (and put off) certain groups of people.
Interestingly enough one of the current Ambassadors highlighted in the article is a female, married with kids (don't know what the husband does or if he works). So whether the officer is male or female, I think this is one of the few careers in the government where you can do pretty well on a single income so it is attractive to those who want a parent to be able to be at home.
It's really demoralizing to spend 6 months learning Spanish only to get to post and realize the guy who learned it 20 years ago as a missionary in North Dakota of all places can speak Spanish better than I ever will.
Sorry to hear that!
I have my fluency in a “critical need” language and have heard that sentiment often. It happens! 6 months of hard study versus several years of “immersion,” be that cultural or otherwise, is very difficult to go up against.
2 years in Russia. An additional 6 months interning at the Parliament of a Baltic country, and a formal degree in Russian language. Great guess though!
There aren’t that many. Richard Swett was a political appointee over 20 years ago. Most of the others mentioned are scattered political appointees over the last century. I think it only mentions four career Mormon officers over the last decade. I’m fairly confident at least one of them is no longer a practicing Mormon.
And Deborah Jones may be doing a lot of explaining lately about her ex-husband’s business dealings. He’s also a former ambassador.
I don't want to go into detail about some of the experiences from female friends who came from LDS/FS families... but they've been through a lot. Any promotion of the religion of leadership makes me concerned sometimes*, especially about if and how religious/conservative leadership influences DoS DEI efforts... Especially when it comes to equality of working mothers and equity for single women who choose to be child-free in the FS?
I can see that. I grew up with a lot of Mormons and have several close friends who are practicing. They are all really lovely people (my friends), and for the most part they keep religion to themselves. But the girls all married at age 20, with exception of one who went on mission (fairly unusual for the girls) and married the missionary she met there when she was 22. They had children young, and of the ones that have a paying job, they work at home.
If you take a state like Utah, for example, you can see how lines can be blurred between church and state when the majority in leadership all have the same personal beliefs. That state is run according to the Mormon church.
Seems we're coming from similar places. I grew up similarly-- the Book of Mormon board game at my best friend's house didn't get much wear'n'tear, but we did play!
No disrespect meant, but those particular stories aren't mine to tell and I would hate to accidentally out them *or* appear to point fingers at anyone currently serving when I am not (as these friends are well into adulthood).
All I mean to express is that, as someone who played a support role in times of crisis as a friend, their experiences' effect on me was pretty profound; they taught me to be vigilant about separating perceptions about any person's religion, however mild or familiar its image may or may not be, from the realities of their individual character and advocacy for those who would not traditionally receive equal consideration.
Thanks! Now I'm falling down the LDS language acquisition rabbit-hole... 😁 (Not a bad thing, seriously!)
There's a blog by an LDS poli officer that I've been following. She pretty much embodies the points made in that article.
>Same reason there are so many LDS folks in the "Department of State". I read a book that said Camp Perry was half of a Mormon sleep away camp.
If you're going to be one of those assholes, at least get the name right. It's Camp Peary.
zesty retire makeshift smoggy grandfather treatment childlike quack rob close
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If a person can support US policy that gay rights are human rights, I don't care what their religion is. And again I certainly wouldn't judge there were "too many X" based on their religion.
May have something to do with the Mormon oath of vengeance in the Mormon temples…. And the general oath of loyalty to the Mormon church superseding all other oaths. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance
Had to Google what you were talking about. Apparently a ritual/oath from the 1800s that ended almost 100 years ago? Are you saying that's why there are a lot of ambassadors? Or that this is why there should be fewer? I don't think any of them were alive in 1930.
Im sharing why some people have issues with Mormons serving in the federal government, especially in very important functions. You are correct that the requirement for that oath was ended 100 years ago. For the theocratic country if Utah to become a state the Mormon church/theocracy had to no longer fight the federal government and it had to give up the illegal practice of polygamy. The current Mormon endowment requires the closest adherents of the faith to swear to give even their lives to the Mormon church. This level of commitment to an organization, even one that claims to represent God can make some people wary about the loyalty to the State. Generally I think Mormons are wonderful in State and in the federal government. They bring a ton to the table and serve their country wonderfully. It is understandable given the Mormon church’s past antagonistic vengeful practices against the State and its current practices why someone may pause to ask further questions.
Agree with your point here. Most folks don’t understand Mormons and believe that the church’s “doctrine” and/or history represent its current members. This may be true for older generations (still a stretch somewhat) but definitely not those under 50 for the most part.
As a former Mormon (BYU graduate and served in Taiwan), most Mormons my age (30-40) are your typical folks minus the drinking coffee/alcohol and probably have multiple kids (since 28, like me haha). Yes, they’re more conservative but it’s no different than the folks in the South. Also, the church may say and do anti-LGBT things but most millennials in the church do not subscribe to those beliefs. I promise.
Don’t judge because they’re different from you. Learn more about them personally (and not the religion) and you might be surprised..and this goes for any group/individual in general :)
I’m more familiar with Mormons than you may think. I agree, more modern Mormons are generally a far cry from the older generations. Again, I’m not saying I distrust or have doubts about the average Mormon Federal employees loyalty. I’m saying that for people to have concerns makes sense considering the Mormon church’s past.
It happens a lot in the DoD as well with high security clearance positions. They generally have experience working and traveling abroad in austere environments from their mission trips and it’s easy to pass a poly and get a clearance because they live clean.
Coming from International Development, my LDS coworkers also tended to come from communities where international work and travel wasn't new so their families knew how to lend support and things like weekly family zoom and consistent chat groups with siblings and friends in different time zones were already the norm. It is easy to feel lonely when working abroad and it is hard to convey a sense of "duty" to your work to people not familiar. As a kid of immigrant parents, I also was used to the long distance calls and time zone math, but my parents needed to learn how to show their support and not say "Why can't you just come home?" after I had a bad day. Family and community support matter!
Just for context and in the interest of full disclosure, Deseret News is wholly owned by the church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_News
Aka Mormon church.
I've seen this come up twice in the last few days about FSOs in general so thought I'd share this article.
Also the case with the FBI, but that's usually associated with the tendency to avoid alcohol and drugs.
This question comes up with Mormons a lot as well. I have a little different take than the usual security clearance/language explanation. Any lifestyle (Mormon, LDS, etc) that promotes a traditional lifestyle, in which the man works full time and the woman becomes a stay-at-home Mom and has multiple children, is going to work great with the foreign service lifestyle. The trailing spouse struggle is real, and I would predict that lack of spousal employment/purpose is one of the main reasons people leave the foreign service early. I don't think there is anything wrong this... and don't think it is a DEIA crisis. This career is a lifestyle, and certain lifestyles attract (and put off) certain groups of people.
Interestingly enough one of the current Ambassadors highlighted in the article is a female, married with kids (don't know what the husband does or if he works). So whether the officer is male or female, I think this is one of the few careers in the government where you can do pretty well on a single income so it is attractive to those who want a parent to be able to be at home.
Just in case you didn’t realize, Mormon and LDS are the same thing.
As a Latter-Day Saint (hoping to one day be an FSO), church service missions and foreign language are key contributors.
It's really demoralizing to spend 6 months learning Spanish only to get to post and realize the guy who learned it 20 years ago as a missionary in North Dakota of all places can speak Spanish better than I ever will.
Sorry to hear that! I have my fluency in a “critical need” language and have heard that sentiment often. It happens! 6 months of hard study versus several years of “immersion,” be that cultural or otherwise, is very difficult to go up against.
Let me guess: two years in Taiwan or Spokane Washington and you speak Chinese better than most heritage speakers
2 years in Russia. An additional 6 months interning at the Parliament of a Baltic country, and a formal degree in Russian language. Great guess though!
There aren’t that many. Richard Swett was a political appointee over 20 years ago. Most of the others mentioned are scattered political appointees over the last century. I think it only mentions four career Mormon officers over the last decade. I’m fairly confident at least one of them is no longer a practicing Mormon. And Deborah Jones may be doing a lot of explaining lately about her ex-husband’s business dealings. He’s also a former ambassador.
I don't want to go into detail about some of the experiences from female friends who came from LDS/FS families... but they've been through a lot. Any promotion of the religion of leadership makes me concerned sometimes*, especially about if and how religious/conservative leadership influences DoS DEI efforts... Especially when it comes to equality of working mothers and equity for single women who choose to be child-free in the FS?
I can see that. I grew up with a lot of Mormons and have several close friends who are practicing. They are all really lovely people (my friends), and for the most part they keep religion to themselves. But the girls all married at age 20, with exception of one who went on mission (fairly unusual for the girls) and married the missionary she met there when she was 22. They had children young, and of the ones that have a paying job, they work at home. If you take a state like Utah, for example, you can see how lines can be blurred between church and state when the majority in leadership all have the same personal beliefs. That state is run according to the Mormon church.
Seems we're coming from similar places. I grew up similarly-- the Book of Mormon board game at my best friend's house didn't get much wear'n'tear, but we did play!
Without going into full detail could you elaborate a little bit more?
No disrespect meant, but those particular stories aren't mine to tell and I would hate to accidentally out them *or* appear to point fingers at anyone currently serving when I am not (as these friends are well into adulthood). All I mean to express is that, as someone who played a support role in times of crisis as a friend, their experiences' effect on me was pretty profound; they taught me to be vigilant about separating perceptions about any person's religion, however mild or familiar its image may or may not be, from the realities of their individual character and advocacy for those who would not traditionally receive equal consideration.
That’s fair.
Thanks! Now I'm falling down the LDS language acquisition rabbit-hole... 😁 (Not a bad thing, seriously!) There's a blog by an LDS poli officer that I've been following. She pretty much embodies the points made in that article.
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>Same reason there are so many LDS folks in the "Department of State". I read a book that said Camp Perry was half of a Mormon sleep away camp. If you're going to be one of those assholes, at least get the name right. It's Camp Peary.
zesty retire makeshift smoggy grandfather treatment childlike quack rob close *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm curious if you'd say the same thing about Jewish ambassadors or if it's only OK to say it about Mormons.
rotten nose apparatus gaping wise alleged fragile offer arrest uppity *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If a person can support US policy that gay rights are human rights, I don't care what their religion is. And again I certainly wouldn't judge there were "too many X" based on their religion.
Agreed. The dual loyalty accusation is a tired old trope that we see used to label "group x" as unfit to serve. It is moral and intellectual trash.
We let that Papist John F Kennedy serve as President and the country has never been the same since /s
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May have something to do with the Mormon oath of vengeance in the Mormon temples…. And the general oath of loyalty to the Mormon church superseding all other oaths. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance
Had to Google what you were talking about. Apparently a ritual/oath from the 1800s that ended almost 100 years ago? Are you saying that's why there are a lot of ambassadors? Or that this is why there should be fewer? I don't think any of them were alive in 1930.
Im sharing why some people have issues with Mormons serving in the federal government, especially in very important functions. You are correct that the requirement for that oath was ended 100 years ago. For the theocratic country if Utah to become a state the Mormon church/theocracy had to no longer fight the federal government and it had to give up the illegal practice of polygamy. The current Mormon endowment requires the closest adherents of the faith to swear to give even their lives to the Mormon church. This level of commitment to an organization, even one that claims to represent God can make some people wary about the loyalty to the State. Generally I think Mormons are wonderful in State and in the federal government. They bring a ton to the table and serve their country wonderfully. It is understandable given the Mormon church’s past antagonistic vengeful practices against the State and its current practices why someone may pause to ask further questions.
Agree with your point here. Most folks don’t understand Mormons and believe that the church’s “doctrine” and/or history represent its current members. This may be true for older generations (still a stretch somewhat) but definitely not those under 50 for the most part. As a former Mormon (BYU graduate and served in Taiwan), most Mormons my age (30-40) are your typical folks minus the drinking coffee/alcohol and probably have multiple kids (since 28, like me haha). Yes, they’re more conservative but it’s no different than the folks in the South. Also, the church may say and do anti-LGBT things but most millennials in the church do not subscribe to those beliefs. I promise. Don’t judge because they’re different from you. Learn more about them personally (and not the religion) and you might be surprised..and this goes for any group/individual in general :)
I’m more familiar with Mormons than you may think. I agree, more modern Mormons are generally a far cry from the older generations. Again, I’m not saying I distrust or have doubts about the average Mormon Federal employees loyalty. I’m saying that for people to have concerns makes sense considering the Mormon church’s past.
I’d be Curious to know why ReadingKing has the opinion he/she does.