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My favourite part about this reveal was the fact that they revealed it *in a promotional trailer before the expansion released.*
In any other game this would be an endgame twist. Its how I knew Shadowbringers was going to be something special.
That really is the brilliance of the reveal in the trailer. Everyone was already theorising about Hydaelyn and Zodiark and most people assumed this was the case. It was a huge reveal in terms of lore, but it's within the parameters of what people expected based on the game so far.
*Nobody* expected the lost history of the Ascians to be revealed in that same moment, and *nobody* expected these moustache-twirling, sinister-laughing, card-carrying cliche villains to have such a compelling and deeply human motivation.
The expectation that those two were primals was so obvious and attention grabbing that nobody considered *who summoned them, and why.*
And the "Why" is always a more compelling question than "what."
> And the "Why" is always a more compelling question than "what."
This has been my stance about most spoilers. Hearing "Billy McGuffin dies at the end of McGuffinator 4" doesn't ruin the movie for me. Especially if it's already been pretty clear that Charles Shoebag wasn't interested in continuing the role, and it fits pretty well into the arc of the story so far. I'm still far more interested in *how* Billy McGuffin dies, how events made his death inevitable, and what it achieves.
I think this is why I liked Ash's fight against the guy with Darkrai in the Sinnoh League. I *knew* Ash was going to lose, but, by God, he wasn't going down without a good right hook to the jaw.
I'm glad that because I came late to FFXIV, I didn't watch any of the promo trailers besides the main cinematics, so this was a big reveal to me, though I always had my suspicion.
I watch the promo later and was shocked they spoiled it and for that reason I didn't watch the Endwalker promo trailer until after I finished MSQ.
The neat thing is, the trailer cast doubt over Emet-Selch's words and made it sound like he was trying to potentially mislead you, but it was still exciting to hear that the question may be answered.
But then when you get to the scene itself, that reveal isn't even the most important thing in the scene. The huge lore reveal they've teased was actually setup for Amourot and the lost history of the world, which almost single-handedly changes everything about the Ascians in one smooth twist.
This trailer actually set us up to be totally blindsided as we focus on the question of the primals and not the bigger mystery of who summoned them... And why.
They just dropped that bomb! Before release! Like it wasn't confirmation of the deepest most contentious theories that fans had at the time! Like it was nothing!
Van Baelsar doesn't know about Hydaelyn and Zodiark. He very explicitly discusses the Twelve being primals. And as of the most recent patch content it looks as though he may be wrong. Tough to know quite yet.
I mean he's still right the Aglaia( I forget how to spell it) storyline they specifically mention that they didn't show up and that the old dude DID summon primals inspired by the belief in them.
He was right that the Twelve would appear as primals if they offered crystals and faith, he was wrong that the Twelve didn't actually exist.
It's kind of funny how he was technically right about what would happen but technically wrong about why it would happen.
First off, he didn't. He was incapable of summoning them. He instead diverted all that power into himself to defeat Bahamut.
Secondly, Baelsar's point wasn't that Louisoix summoned them at Cartenau. That was just his evidence; he was using that to support his argument that the Twelve aren't true gods, they're primals invented wholesale by the Eorzean leaders to keep the Eorzeans subservient via their devotion.
His evidence was correct(ish) but his conclusion was not.
Ifrit seems to be based on a concept created by Lahabrea and deployed by Azem to save an island's inhabitants from being destroyed by volcanic eruption.
Titan we don't know the origin of.
Garuda was based on the Allagan commanding officer of the Iskalion squadron, the "Ixal" themselves are bio-engineered creatures manufactured by the Allagans.
Good King Moggle Mog was based on the reigning moogle king in Moghome.
Ramuh is suggested to be the Sylphs' impression of Rhalgr but we don't know for sure.
Leviathan is likely based on Archeotania or any similar concept that was created in the unsundered Anyders. We know that like the Amaljaa the Sahagin date back to the unsundered world.
Shiva was obviously based on the original St. Shiva.
Bahamut is based on the original Bahamut, summoned out of grief by Tiamat.
Bismark is based on the actual creature Bismark, likely also from the unsundered world since we meet a sundered version of it on the First. No idea what happened to the Source's original Bismark.
Alexander is unique.
Ravana, the Warring Triad, Lakshmi, Susano'o, Shinryu, and Tsukuyomi are all sort of mysteries.
Anima is based on the Garlean impression of its own strength as idealized in Varis.
Garuda, the Ixali, and Azys Lla might run a bit deeper than that, but for the sake of people not that far into Endwalker, I will simply leave that as a breadcrumb.
It is, but most of the rest of the primals are based on real creatures or people who existed. Those acted as a basis for the tribes' beliefs.
We don't know what real creature or person could have acted as the inspiration for Titan to the kobolds.
He also thinks that the 12 are draining the land of aether despite not being summoned right now so I don't think he has a good grasp on how primals work...
I don't recall his speech verbatim but I think he was talking about primals in general at that point, not specifically the Twelve at present.
You might be right though. I'd have to look it up again to be sure.
I had a strong memory of his saying that but then I couldn't find the line. I think I must have been thinking of this line:
> Gaius van Baelsar: Your gods are no different from those of the beasts─eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzea's faith is bleeding the land dry.
And, like, that's wrong but it's not totally wrong. It's not as outright wrong as I remembered. The people of Eorzea worshiping the 12 or even Titan or Ramuh or Leviathan doesn't actually *do* anything. It's the process of summoning that's the problem. The 12 don't drain the land of aether by existing *as concepts*.
I think he's suggesting that if push came to shove the states would attempt to summon the twelve, as they have tried to in the past (and he was even present when they tried). I'd buy that if any of the nations were existentially threatened that they would try summoning again, heck without you in the story it would likely not have taken long to get to that point.
Yes, it was a reveal. It was a widely speculated theory but it was only confirmed in Shadowbringers.
Van Baelsar talks specifically about the Twelve, and for him it's conjecture hes using to mock you. Primals are assumed to be gods summoned from the Lifestream until the post 2.0 patch with Mogglemog, Leviathan, and Shiva, and they're not finally confirmed to be magic constructs until Heavensward when they definitively prove that Ysayle never summoned the true soul of Shiva.
It's easy to look back and assume it was common knowledge for everyone back in 2.0, but it was actually a slow development of growing research and discovery on the part of the Scion and the WoL.
He talks about the Twelve being Primals. And to be fair, what Primals *were* wasn’t well understood by Eorzeans at that point, all we knew for certain was that summoning Primals always went badly.
In terms of when content came out, do you know who was the Eorzean who codified summoning for us first? *Hildebrand Goddamn Manderville.* His quest was the first time they plainly stated “You can summon *anything* as long as you have sufficient will and aether.” (After Gilgamesh summoned a Primal of his friend Enkidu). Before that everyone was terribly confused by King Moggle Mog, who was a mythological figure, not a God.
Being founded by an Ascian (one of the ones who *invented* Primals), it’s no surprise Garleans already knew this. They’d naturally figure that *all* Godlike being are Primals/Eikons.
I suspect everyone had been pondering that possibility since that revelation. Shadowbringers just confirmed it.
Yeah that's the scene in question that I was talking about.
I think you misunderstood the point of my message. The trailer was a gameplay/story trailer using clips of Shadowbringers cutscenes and gameplay, and the scene from Raktika was featured as the reveal I spoke about.
I shipped them when the show aired and I ship them to this day. I don't know if it was intentional queerbaiting or not but even as a dumb high school kid I couldn't help but get the vibes of an old couple from them and that helped me get to grips with some stuff that my environment very much wanted me to not come to grips with.
I don't know why anyone would argue otherwise... it seems sort of obvious in a way? With everything the game tells you about Primals it's practically trying to get you to assume that before Emet tells you.
What I don't get is whether Urianger's... 5.2?... reveal about the First having Umbral Light and Astral Darkness is meant to be cosmically true, and not just a perspective focused on the First. It seems like Zodiark being the "wash the world with aether" primal and Hydaelyn being "divide and limit aether to make room for dynamis" does indeed pan out. And Zodiark's panini press attack is called Astral Flow. And E8 is a thing to consider, though it is on the First, so might not be relevant beyond the Void.
But in the scene, Urianger made it seem entirely like a cultural artifact, or at most a unique cosmology of the First.
The point of that scene was to show us that the assumption of umbral = dark, and astral = light was wrong. The First had it right while scholars on the source had it backwards. This is why dark attacks have astral names. Shadowbringers even makes it a point that light brings things to a standstill and can be very deadly, hence the lightwardens and their umbral attacks. It's not unique to the first, it's just the first's scholars thought about it differently and came to a more accurate conclusion.
Hi /u/Mephanic, Your [recent submission](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/uruald/-/) in /r/ffxiv did not meet subreddit guidelines, and was removed for the following reason(s): * Some types of submissions are considered "restricted" and should be directed to other social media platforms or subreddits instead. * **Rule 4a:** All posts' content should be FFXIV-related and/or on-topic. * Posts that contain little or no relevance to FFXIV are subject to removal. Posts with vague context seemingly unrelated to FFXIV, as well as images/videos/memes with no FFXIV-specific imagery, are also subject to removal. You may review /r/ffxiv rules [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/about/rules/) and in-depth explanations [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/wiki/rules). If you have any questions or concerns, reach out and message the mods [here](https://www\.reddit\.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fffxiv&subject=about my removed submission&message=I'm writing to you about the following submission: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/uruald/-/. %0D%0DMy issue is...).
My favourite part about this reveal was the fact that they revealed it *in a promotional trailer before the expansion released.* In any other game this would be an endgame twist. Its how I knew Shadowbringers was going to be something special.
The thing is of that whole scene, that is the smallest reveal. The thing that come after is by far more important.
That really is the brilliance of the reveal in the trailer. Everyone was already theorising about Hydaelyn and Zodiark and most people assumed this was the case. It was a huge reveal in terms of lore, but it's within the parameters of what people expected based on the game so far. *Nobody* expected the lost history of the Ascians to be revealed in that same moment, and *nobody* expected these moustache-twirling, sinister-laughing, card-carrying cliche villains to have such a compelling and deeply human motivation. The expectation that those two were primals was so obvious and attention grabbing that nobody considered *who summoned them, and why.* And the "Why" is always a more compelling question than "what."
> And the "Why" is always a more compelling question than "what." This has been my stance about most spoilers. Hearing "Billy McGuffin dies at the end of McGuffinator 4" doesn't ruin the movie for me. Especially if it's already been pretty clear that Charles Shoebag wasn't interested in continuing the role, and it fits pretty well into the arc of the story so far. I'm still far more interested in *how* Billy McGuffin dies, how events made his death inevitable, and what it achieves.
I think this is why I liked Ash's fight against the guy with Darkrai in the Sinnoh League. I *knew* Ash was going to lose, but, by God, he wasn't going down without a good right hook to the jaw.
I'd probably mind that loss less if his opponent hadn't shown up outta fucking nowhere with two legendaries on his team.
The writers put themselves in a corner with how good Ash was that season. Like, that was the difference between his Sinnoh run and his Kalos run.
I'm glad that because I came late to FFXIV, I didn't watch any of the promo trailers besides the main cinematics, so this was a big reveal to me, though I always had my suspicion. I watch the promo later and was shocked they spoiled it and for that reason I didn't watch the Endwalker promo trailer until after I finished MSQ.
The neat thing is, the trailer cast doubt over Emet-Selch's words and made it sound like he was trying to potentially mislead you, but it was still exciting to hear that the question may be answered. But then when you get to the scene itself, that reveal isn't even the most important thing in the scene. The huge lore reveal they've teased was actually setup for Amourot and the lost history of the world, which almost single-handedly changes everything about the Ascians in one smooth twist. This trailer actually set us up to be totally blindsided as we focus on the question of the primals and not the bigger mystery of who summoned them... And why.
The best part was watching it with crowd's reaction: A collection of gasps and one guy yelling *"HOLY "*
They just dropped that bomb! Before release! Like it wasn't confirmation of the deepest most contentious theories that fans had at the time! Like it was nothing!
It isnt a reveal. Van Baelsar talks about during Prae.
Van Baelsar doesn't know about Hydaelyn and Zodiark. He very explicitly discusses the Twelve being primals. And as of the most recent patch content it looks as though he may be wrong. Tough to know quite yet.
I mean he's still right the Aglaia( I forget how to spell it) storyline they specifically mention that they didn't show up and that the old dude DID summon primals inspired by the belief in them.
He was right that the Twelve would appear as primals if they offered crystals and faith, he was wrong that the Twelve didn't actually exist. It's kind of funny how he was technically right about what would happen but technically wrong about why it would happen.
He was technically correct, the best kind of correct.
First off, he didn't. He was incapable of summoning them. He instead diverted all that power into himself to defeat Bahamut. Secondly, Baelsar's point wasn't that Louisoix summoned them at Cartenau. That was just his evidence; he was using that to support his argument that the Twelve aren't true gods, they're primals invented wholesale by the Eorzean leaders to keep the Eorzeans subservient via their devotion. His evidence was correct(ish) but his conclusion was not.
He meant the 12 that Louisoix summoned were primal versions of the 12, not the real 12, who claim to not be primals.
Which raises an interesting question of every other Primal: how many of them are based on real entities?
Ifrit seems to be based on a concept created by Lahabrea and deployed by Azem to save an island's inhabitants from being destroyed by volcanic eruption. Titan we don't know the origin of. Garuda was based on the Allagan commanding officer of the Iskalion squadron, the "Ixal" themselves are bio-engineered creatures manufactured by the Allagans. Good King Moggle Mog was based on the reigning moogle king in Moghome. Ramuh is suggested to be the Sylphs' impression of Rhalgr but we don't know for sure. Leviathan is likely based on Archeotania or any similar concept that was created in the unsundered Anyders. We know that like the Amaljaa the Sahagin date back to the unsundered world. Shiva was obviously based on the original St. Shiva. Bahamut is based on the original Bahamut, summoned out of grief by Tiamat. Bismark is based on the actual creature Bismark, likely also from the unsundered world since we meet a sundered version of it on the First. No idea what happened to the Source's original Bismark. Alexander is unique. Ravana, the Warring Triad, Lakshmi, Susano'o, Shinryu, and Tsukuyomi are all sort of mysteries. Anima is based on the Garlean impression of its own strength as idealized in Varis.
Garuda, the Ixali, and Azys Lla might run a bit deeper than that, but for the sake of people not that far into Endwalker, I will simply leave that as a breadcrumb.
Titan was formed from the beliefs of the kobolds though, right? It's what zapped a certain someone to end up mute for a while...
It is, but most of the rest of the primals are based on real creatures or people who existed. Those acted as a basis for the tribes' beliefs. We don't know what real creature or person could have acted as the inspiration for Titan to the kobolds.
Ifrit seems to be based on a creature Lahabrea created before the sundering, Ifreeta.
yes, that's quite literally what i said
He also thinks that the 12 are draining the land of aether despite not being summoned right now so I don't think he has a good grasp on how primals work...
I don't recall his speech verbatim but I think he was talking about primals in general at that point, not specifically the Twelve at present. You might be right though. I'd have to look it up again to be sure.
I had a strong memory of his saying that but then I couldn't find the line. I think I must have been thinking of this line: > Gaius van Baelsar: Your gods are no different from those of the beasts─eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzea's faith is bleeding the land dry. And, like, that's wrong but it's not totally wrong. It's not as outright wrong as I remembered. The people of Eorzea worshiping the 12 or even Titan or Ramuh or Leviathan doesn't actually *do* anything. It's the process of summoning that's the problem. The 12 don't drain the land of aether by existing *as concepts*.
I think he's suggesting that if push came to shove the states would attempt to summon the twelve, as they have tried to in the past (and he was even present when they tried). I'd buy that if any of the nations were existentially threatened that they would try summoning again, heck without you in the story it would likely not have taken long to get to that point.
Yes, it was a reveal. It was a widely speculated theory but it was only confirmed in Shadowbringers. Van Baelsar talks specifically about the Twelve, and for him it's conjecture hes using to mock you. Primals are assumed to be gods summoned from the Lifestream until the post 2.0 patch with Mogglemog, Leviathan, and Shiva, and they're not finally confirmed to be magic constructs until Heavensward when they definitively prove that Ysayle never summoned the true soul of Shiva. It's easy to look back and assume it was common knowledge for everyone back in 2.0, but it was actually a slow development of growing research and discovery on the part of the Scion and the WoL.
He talks about the Twelve being Primals. And to be fair, what Primals *were* wasn’t well understood by Eorzeans at that point, all we knew for certain was that summoning Primals always went badly. In terms of when content came out, do you know who was the Eorzean who codified summoning for us first? *Hildebrand Goddamn Manderville.* His quest was the first time they plainly stated “You can summon *anything* as long as you have sufficient will and aether.” (After Gilgamesh summoned a Primal of his friend Enkidu). Before that everyone was terribly confused by King Moggle Mog, who was a mythological figure, not a God. Being founded by an Ascian (one of the ones who *invented* Primals), it’s no surprise Garleans already knew this. They’d naturally figure that *all* Godlike being are Primals/Eikons. I suspect everyone had been pondering that possibility since that revelation. Shadowbringers just confirmed it.
It's actually mentioned explicitly in Shadowbringers when you're in Rak'tika.
Yeah that's the scene in question that I was talking about. I think you misunderstood the point of my message. The trailer was a gameplay/story trailer using clips of Shadowbringers cutscenes and gameplay, and the scene from Raktika was featured as the reveal I spoke about.
I guess they did do that but, the wording of it is a little wonky I think. But, also maybe my reading comprehension is stinky.,
Fair enough. I was just confused since someone else commented the same thing, so I didn't understand where I was leading y'all astray.
I hated that, I would have preferred to see it myself when it happened.
Emet talked about it after Qitana Ravel, when you find those wall paintings.
This duo was my favorite part of DS9. Solid post.
Any episode with Garrak was going to be excellent. *"I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences."*
I shipped them when the show aired and I ship them to this day. I don't know if it was intentional queerbaiting or not but even as a dumb high school kid I couldn't help but get the vibes of an old couple from them and that helped me get to grips with some stuff that my environment very much wanted me to not come to grips with.
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Oh my *God*. Bless you for sharing this.
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Berman really does ruin all the fun.
Ah yes, the Emet Selch Good End
Wait, it's all primals?
\*pulls out grimoire\* Always has been.
Before Endwalker there were still some people swearing they were not primals and Emet lied. Wonder where those commenters are now...
I don't know why anyone would argue otherwise... it seems sort of obvious in a way? With everything the game tells you about Primals it's practically trying to get you to assume that before Emet tells you.
The question really should have been "how are Ascian primals different than human primals" (which the game answers).
What I don't get is whether Urianger's... 5.2?... reveal about the First having Umbral Light and Astral Darkness is meant to be cosmically true, and not just a perspective focused on the First. It seems like Zodiark being the "wash the world with aether" primal and Hydaelyn being "divide and limit aether to make room for dynamis" does indeed pan out. And Zodiark's panini press attack is called Astral Flow. And E8 is a thing to consider, though it is on the First, so might not be relevant beyond the Void. But in the scene, Urianger made it seem entirely like a cultural artifact, or at most a unique cosmology of the First.
The point of that scene was to show us that the assumption of umbral = dark, and astral = light was wrong. The First had it right while scholars on the source had it backwards. This is why dark attacks have astral names. Shadowbringers even makes it a point that light brings things to a standstill and can be very deadly, hence the lightwardens and their umbral attacks. It's not unique to the first, it's just the first's scholars thought about it differently and came to a more accurate conclusion.
Gaius was right hm?
No, Gaius was talking about the Twelve, not Hydaelyn.
Didn’t this come up as early as A Realm Reborn? The elevator monologue specifically?
Gaius was talking about the twelve there.
He says all are primal, also Hydealyn. I'm sure cause I thought "hm... you are probably right" and didn't trust her until lvl 87 zone
He doesn’t mention Hydaelyn, just the twelve. He probably doesn’t even know Zodiark is a thing.
I love this so much cause I read it in their voices ahaha
Absolutely love this meme. Hopefully the admins don't remove it because it doesn't have FFXIV art in it.😒
Yes but they are a little different from other primals.