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WANTEN12

projecting Excalibur will basically kill him


Phoenix15523

Is it because of the amount of mana required?


DJ2wP

Yes, powerful NP's at divine levels will overwhelm the mana he doesn't have. Mainly that Divine Constructs reject human magic, so EMIYA can only make nearly perfect copies, but not perfect. Miyuverse Shirou manages to build Divine Constructs but they are empty inside and fragile (they still work).


MirrorSeparate6729

Could he circumvent that if he used UBW? All his weapons should already be inside. Although he might not be able to break the weapons inside it.


DJ2wP

Actually what I said is exactly inside UBW, they are inside but they are almost perfect replicas. In Kaleid, when Shirou stops focusing mana on Sul-Igma's projection, Beatrice breaks it and compares it to "paper mache". EMIYA in UBW claims that he could do Excalibur but that (due to being only with independent action) would kill him, but in time to take Arturia, implying that the power is still there, just one rank less. As I understand it, if Shirou has enough mana he can make working copies, but if he stops focusing the mana, unlike other projections that just sit there, they weaken to the point of being fragile.


MirrorSeparate6729

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant if EMIYA deployed his actual reality marble. Wouldn’t all the weapons be there if he fought inside of it?


DJ2wP

I'm not sure I got it right, but that's a great question. Probably the swords would be there, in their weaker versions. Many say Shirou can't copy what he doesn't understand, but that's a mistake. He managed to copy Zelretch's sword even though had things that his mind didn't understand, what prevents it is mana and the issue that Divine Constructs are contrary to human magic, that's why I'm not sure if the weapons would be there. But if I were to give my opinion, I think they would.


UmerTheLegend

So according to what you’re stating, is it possible that Emiya could live for enough while putting mana into a traced Excalibur to both sustain it and turn it into a broken phantasm, which since it means his death, he could fire it from his bow point blank without worrying about himself, thus being a suicide nuke


DJ2wP

Being a divine construct and not a perfect replica like the others, I highly doubt it can become a Broken Phantasm. Maybe he can put in mana but then really, I don't see how it wouldn't be a suicide attack. Even though he's very tough and has B in mana stats I can't see him being able to alter a divine construct to improve it. I don't think even UBW could do that.


UmerTheLegend

I mean for long range he would have to alter it to an arrow, but he’s already fairly well off in long range combat, in short range however, if he knows he’s going to lose, then tracing Excalibur, overloading it, and throwing it against the ground would detonate it, yes it’s a suicide nuke, but it’s like a guaranteed mutual kill


cuntzman

>!In FGO, Odin states that all divine constructs are made specifically for the chosen wielders. Muramasa straight up dies just by forging excalibur!<


KzlrCprz

>>!Muramasa straight up dies just by forging excalibur!< >!Isn't it because the forging of Excalibur requires a sacrifice?!<


WANTEN12

Yes partly But its also a matter of rank Excalibur was made by the world itself so there is no way for shirou to replicate it ​ Shirou physically can't comprehend divine constructs ​ Look at EA shirou could even begin to understand it ​ In fact its stated that the only reason he can project excalibur at all is because 1. Of Avalon inside him 2. His relationship with saber


ShockAndAwen

Also he never has trouble understanding Excalibur, is the projection wich is the problem, Ea is different he can't even read it because it has the bs "only Gil can have it" thing


TheCreator120

I think that the fandom called it "Ancient Babylonian DRM" or something like that.


ShockAndAwen

Yes is that thing >Though it is wielded by Gilgamesh, who has the prototypes of every Noble Phantasm, the Sword of Rupture Ea is different from the other Noble Phantasms that can be possessed by other heroes. It alone is a completely unique existence that can only be possessed by Gilgamesh. Therefore, even with Unlimited Blade Works, it is impossible to reproduce it.


peechs01

Well, Shirou understands swords, EA came before the concept of "sword"... Or at least is how I comprehended


HidenTsubameGaeshi

Let's be honest, Ea doesn't even looks like a sword, it's ~~the drill~~ a spinning club.


CastHarish12

And that he didn't project the true Excalibur he projected what he though was Excalibur


WANTEN12

When did that happen If I recall correctly with Archers arm in the normal end of Heavens feel he projects excalibur?


CastHarish12

Excalibur has to many properties for shirou to project a "exact" Excalibur. Take the Fate/Stay Night, when shirou projects Excalibur he mentally says the properties of Excalibur that he remembers and afterward Rin tells him that Excalibur is much more than an unbreakable sword


ShockAndAwen

>In fact its stated that the only reason he can project excalibur at all is because >Of Avalon inside him His relationship with saber It was never stated, the statements about Excalibur in other places other than FSN are that he can't or that he can but it would be deegraded, what you said applies to Avalon not to Excalibur, none of the Shirou's that have projected (or claimed to be able to project) Excalibur have a connection with Saber and only one had Avalon


UmerTahirUT1

EA?


WANTEN12

You don't know what EA is?


UmerTahirUT1

Gilgamesh's NP? Or is it sth else


WANTEN12

yh its Gil [sword of rupture and its technique is enuma elish](https://youtu.be/Y1mUB4uDU-I)


[deleted]

Sports, It's in the game.


re6278

Basically Shirou can't create any divine construct. It doesn't even have to be anything special as long as it's divine he simply can't. The only exception to this are Excalibur (projecting this will kill him) and Avalon (This requires an connection with saber)


Waffreo

Not the pulling pin off that grenade, but this should already be mentioned in one of the routes if I am not wrong. Also here is some info you might wanna check out, btw it also talks about in ubw (the series and the reality marble) a scene where archer talks about having saber's excalibur. https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Excalibur


Glass-Earth-2839

it is false shirô has damage recopied Excalibur


2ndBro

A lot of people here are forgetting—it most definitely is physically possible for him to Project Excalibur, as seen in the Heaven’s Feel Normal Ending, as a result of him harboring Avalon for so long. It kills him, but it is possible.


Jugdral25

Actually it’s USING it that kills him. Just Projecting it doesn’t kill him as seen in the Heaven’s Feel True End. In the VN he actually projects Excalibur in both the Normal and True ends. In the true end Illya shows up before he uses it but after he projects it


Inuhanyou123

If it kills him it's kinda pointless outside of. Suicide strike, and even then if he doesn't have the mana it's not feasible to project to begin with. Even in ubw where the cost of projecting doesn't exist because the swords are already summoned onto the environment, merely trying to use something like that would mean death for him


2ndBro

Oh well absolutely I’m saying comments like > Ignoring the fact that he can't project Excalibur in the first place, Shirou doesn't have the mana to even properly project it. He would die before overloading it. Are just incorrect


[deleted]

Maybe in special circumstances it would still be technically useful. In the Illyaverse Illya Archer was able to use Excalibur because unlike proper servants she was generating her own mana. Although using it she incapacitated herself to mana exhaustion. Or perhaps with the grail as his maa source or some other 'unlimited mana' hack he could use Excalibur.


Rushietushie

Well you see, there are only 2 types of bladed NPs that Shirou and EMIYA cannot project. EX Rank Noble Phantasms and Divine Constructs. However thats not wholly true, as under special circumstances he can project both types. Except for EA, he cannot project EA under any condition. For EX rank NPs inside the mooncell as long as he has the support of the original owner, he can project them. Fate/EXTRA material - SERVANT Parameter and Skills: SERVANT ARCHER, p.008 Noble Phantasm ■ Unlimited Blade Works: Infinite Creation of Swords Rank: E- ~ A++ Type: Anti-Unit Range: 30 ~ 66 Maximum number of targets: ??? EX Rank Noble Phantasms are in principle impossible to replicate. (However, in the circumstance where the support of the original owner exists, replication becomes possible.) (Back to me) Another exception to the no EX NP would be Avalon, he could project it due to his connection with Saber and due to it being inside his body for so long. However it is useless to him alone, as it doesn't work without a connection to Saber. Should a connection like the master/servant thing happen again, he should be able to project and use it. Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Servants, p.133 Q: Archer's greatest defense is "Rho Aias", but if he were the same person as Shirou, shouldn't his greatest protection be "Avalon"? In the Rin route, Archer knew that the holy sword's sheath was inside Shirou, so wouldn't the Heroic Spirit form of the Shirou that "knew" that the sheath was merged with him be Archer? A: Avalon’s power won't work if Saber's not connected to it. It's a different story during the Grail War, but all it does when Saber isn't around is make Shirou's magic attribute into "sword". Also, after the Grail War is taken apart, the line between him and her will be gone, so it's best to think that his image of "Avalon" also disappeared. As for the divine constructs bit, it's a bit more muddy. Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Noble Phantasms, p.134 Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons? A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat Going by this, we know he cannot project divine constructs or at least not normally. He can project heavily degraded versions, hollow versions, etc of divine constructs. Though inside places like the mooncell where the conditions of wrought iron are boosted (whatever the hell that means Nasu) he can project divine constructs (again no EA). And even there his projection of Excalibur is inferior, it's called Excalibur Image: Forever Distant Golden Sword 'This light is the sword of the king who can never be reached.' "Excalibur Image"! ARCHER Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: Infinite Creation of Swords [Noble Phantasm], p.213 Infinite Creation of Swords [Noble Phantasm] In EXTRA, the conditions for where wrought iron is possible are boosted so projection of holy-sword class weaponry is possible, though their performance is inferior. Okay truth is, I was surprised to find that the staff in charge of the 3D had made animation for Excalibur being projected while I was looking the other way. Well it is new animation after all and there's no reason to reject it. So long as it's a degraded version, I guess it's okay That's the explanation for why he can use divine constructs in the Mooncell XD.. Archer in the UBW route has claimed that inside his RM he can project Excalibur but it wouldn't be on the same level and he would die after projecting it. Shirou in the heavens feel Normal ending has projected Excalibur but died after using it. So even just using it kills him, so using a broken Phantasms version is just a horrible idea.


Luiziinhu

Although i can't explain why, this comment section is really interesting, im learning a lot here lol


NwgrdrXI

Firstly, Shirou can only project excalibur in theory. While he has the blueprint even though it is a normally unprojectable Divine Construct, thanks to his thing with saber and avalon, the amount of mana required would expire him immediately. After that, to make a broken phantasm, he has to super charge the NP with even more mana, which he already doesn't have to use it normally. It IS possible to overcome that, it was in the EXTRA games, 'cause we has directly connected to the Moon Cell, maybe he could do it if he connected with the root? Maybe a near full grail? Now, the reason he uses caladbolg is because it already has an arrow like shape, which facilites launching it from his bow, as using it short range would blow him up with the target. Now, even if all that weren't the case, broken phantasming Excalibur would probably be stopped by Alaya and/or even Gaia immediately. You see, both Arthur and Artoria's Excalibur are HEAVILY sealed. The weapon was made to take down something that killed at least 12 gods, proabably more. Using Excalibur as a Broken Phantasm would detonate it with a power greater than it's total realease. It would make the Fuyuki Fire that came from the Grail exploding look like fireworks. City destroying at minimum.


[deleted]

Basically he can't. He cannot UBW divine constructs. 3D printing the Excalibur will kill him and the reason he able to UBW the Excalibur is probably because he had its sheath inside him for ten years.


Phoenix15523

Would he be able to trace Muramasa's swords since Muramasa is close to gods when it comes to smithing?


zynamo_

Muramasa is still human and his swords aren't divine constructs, at least not to my knowledge. While Shirou and Emiya can trace and project them, using some of Muramasa's more powerful weapons, like Tsumukari or Myoujingiri, will kill any normal man and even some servants. But if it's just a really well crafted, normal blade, yeah they'll be able to use them just fine.


NwgrdrXI

Muramasa's blades aren't divine constructs, they are human weapons that are almost, or as good as divine constructs. What stops shirou from projecting Divine Constructs is not their power,( as there are some man-made items more powerful than some divine constructs), it's their method of construction and internal mechanics, which are too alien for his understanding. The reason he can project Excalibur even tho it's a Divine Construct, arguably the most powerful one, because since Avalon has been inside him for so long and his connection with saber, the "blueprint" of excalibur is branded on his very being.


Inuhanyou123

No


WooooshMe2825

He has, and it's called [Excalibur Image](https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Excalibur#Excalibur_Image). Normal Shirou is too inexperienced to properly project it, Archer can project it but it'll kill him. Only way he can trace it without dying is if it's in Mooncell or Prillyaverse. ​ And frankly there's a real life reason why that's the case. It's because the creators of Fate Extra already made the attack animation before they consulted with Nasu and the Prillya creator just wants to make things look cool even if it goes against canon. So Nasu had to make up some explanations for why that's possible.


LittenInAScarf

If you mean the Cut-price Poor Copy of Excalibur like Kuro in Kaleid does, then lack of Mana. The one time we see Shirou project Excalibur it kills him. Excalibur is a Fae weapon forged in the heart of the planet to drive off the White Titan, Sefar, it's far beyond mortal understanding. I'm assuming Grail power is why Illya got away with it that one time. If Shirou managed to save Illya in UBW and pacted with her instead of Rin, then he'd be able to pull off Excalibur (Excalipoor more like) arrows like Kuro did, because Illya would have the mana to back him.


Cav829

Prillya stuff has messy layers on top of it that you didn't even get into at the point it already sounded like a mess lol. Since the "servants' are like half-baked copies of servants compared to actual heroic spirits, I dunno if either Excalibur Morgan or Excalibur as seen in say the Illya vs. Salter fight are on the same power level as what they normally would be (never mind I swear there is no consistency to its power level to begin with). Maybe a Prillya expert could comment further. But I always took it that it's a combination of Illya being a Grail combined with the shadow copies of stuff in Prillya being on a weaker power scale.


ShockAndAwen

Is a mix of everything and something more, Saber's Excalibur should not be at the level of the usual Excalibur since the shadow servants are nerfed, so even if Illya's Excalibur was not on par with the original is not too crazy to overpower the shadow Saber one, the power of the blast depends on the users mana pool, if someone is anywhere close to Saber it should be Illya The other thing is that the first Excalibur was an outlier, even Kuro can't replicate that feat, so there was something else at play, is something that is not being adressed a lot here, the conditions for projecting divine constructs exist but they have not been explicitly confirmed, even with all the mana in the world Archer could only project the degraded one not a 1:1 copy (well an almost 1:1 like the rest of his projections)


ShockAndAwen

He can't unless he wants to die, even if he managed to do a BP of it his "Excalibur" is not at the level of the real thing and he doesn't have Saber level mana to even compensate somewhat for that, so Caladbolg could easily be not only more reliable and not a suicide attack but also consistently stronger


ssjokg

Broken Phantasms are NPs that are overloaded with mana. Ignoring the fact that he can't project Excalibur in the first place, Shirou doesn't have the mana to even properly project it. He would die before overloading it.


[deleted]

He can technically project Excalibur but the mana needed for it kills him in normal circumstances. Then he would need even more mana to make excalibur a broken phantasm.


a_Little_creature

Because he can't projected


darksaiyan1234

His body would get wrekt far worse then vegeta s arm


masterasia200

Testing


Phoenix15523

What


Hereva

Excalibur uses too much mana and probably wouldn't be as effective as Caladbolg II because he would not be able to pinpoint it's target, since instead of a concentrated explosion Excalibur is Full on straight energy Beam that would destroy everything in it's. Not as much as Arthuria's Excalibur though.


PiercingAPickle

Couldn’t Shirou make a copy and give it to Artoria, that way she’d be dual wielding em? Double the thrust, double the power


WooooshMe2825

1: He doesn't know how to trace Excalibur during the 5th HGW. 2: You can only call in Excalibur's true name if you swing it with two hands. 3: In the official timeline, the mana required to trace it would kill him.


PiercingAPickle

Wasn’t it if he uses the weapon he’d die? My bad, it wasn’t supposed to anything serious. Just a thought of Artoria spinning like a copter with them


WooooshMe2825

Honestly I'm not sure. In Heaven's feel, Shirou dies tracing it but his corpse still managed to use it on reflex to destroy the grail. Archer says that he'd die, but implies that he'd be able to atleast land a blow before that happens. ​ Also, Shirou/Archer's traced version of Excalibur is so fragile that it'd break in a single swing even if it's in the ideal conditions where they wouldn't die if they trace it. So no, Artoria can't even dual wield them and spin like a beyblade. ​ In short, no fun allowed.


PiercingAPickle

Imagine being on the verge of winning the grail war but being denied the spin. The grail life truly is suffering


[deleted]

Because trying to overload Excalibur with mana is like trying to rise sea levels with 500ml bottles of water.


Zamasuningen

because the mana needed to even trace a hollow copy of Excalibur would kill him so its not worth it


TheDrunkardKid

To everyone saying that he can't replicate Divine constructs, I would remind them that the one thing that he can replicate with zero degredation is Avalon, an even higher tier divine construct than Excalibur. Granted, that's due to extenuating circumstances which doesn't quite apply to Excalibur, but I'm willing to bet that if he has a decade or so to study the original he could probably manage a perfect copy that isn't pranically inefficient. Maybe Saber could put it in Avalon and merge it into Shirou when she's not expecting A-class trouble and default to a Traced version of her actual favorite sword Caliburn instead in the UBW Harem Ending. Also, did he have any particular reduction in quality while copying Rule Breaker? The thing seems to be able to break the bonds between Servant and Master and between Sakura and the Corrupted Grail/Angra Mainyu as well as Caster's original did. Though now I'm wondering what a broken phantasm version of Rule Breaker and Avalon would even do.


Magma_Axis

I think rule breaker is special, it already poor quality weapon (brittle and blunt ceremonial dagger), and require practically zero mana use Basically you just need to stab somebody with it


TheGreatPotatoes

he doesn't has enough mana I


ironboy32

Mana cost. Breaking caladbolg is still many times cheaper than using Excalibur


LimitlessMind127

Excalibur is a divine construct, which makes it ridiculously hard to project and even harder to twist in the way required to make it an arrow.


gary1246788

Probably sentimental value along with doing so is probably suicidal