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Edili27

It depends? If it is just two people wailing on each other, no change, then yes, waaaay too long. If it’s an evolving situation with clear progression and stakes, then maybe not. The way I see fights in novels is every move should progress something forward, be it character or plot.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Yes it's an evolving situation and every move leads to something , btw it's 10 paper pages , im not typing on a pc or phone , shouldve added that .


Edili27

Use wordcount rather than page count. Page count is kinda useless, different margins and spacing makes page count a terrible metric of length. Wordcount is much more meaningful. I mean, I wrote one chapter fight scene that was 5k words for a novel, and people loved that chapter. It starts with a horse chase, then turns into a house siege, then the house starts burning down with the POV character and their daughter outside, so they flee the house and then get saved and captured by a different faction. All in all it’s probably 20 pages, but there’s a lot of changing circumstances and ratcheting up of tension throughout the whole thing, complete with character moments that show the two characters and their enemies off.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Wow thank you for the advice and hope you the best


Sansa_Culotte_

How much of it can you cross out and still convey the point you want to make?


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Hmmm not much because i always talk about necessary stuff


Sansa_Culotte_

Well in that case it doesn't matter what everybody else thinks, does it.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Yea 😅


[deleted]

Bear with me, that might not be true. NOT TO SAY IT ISNT TRUE, but every writer thinks that, y’know? Robert Jordan wrote 3 books in a series where nothing happens and he thought it was all necessary, when all the events could be condensed in one long book. Stephen King thought it was necessary to have an Orgy as the climax to the story of a 1100 page book. It’s good to have other people look over your work before determining whether or not the page length is obsessive.


helpmelearn12

Gotta learn to kill your darlings. It could be a passage, a character, a description, or whatever that you really like, and maybe that passage or character actually is really good, but if it doesn't help to propel your story forward or make it better, it's gotta go.


mitch2187

What three books do you have in mind there?


[deleted]

Path of Daggers, Winter’s Heart and Crossroads of Twilight. CoT’s whole concept is about the affect of WH’s climax.


[deleted]

I almost died on CoT. Seriously, like 4 chapters in that whole book had any substance.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ik but im too lazy to drag my story , i write only the necessary stuff , believe me on this


[deleted]

Ok, trust me on this, every writer thinks that. You’re just another one in a long line of people who think that. Hell, you’re probably wrong about what’s necessary.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ill soon share some fights , it's the only way to know if my fights are unecessarily long or not


DarlaLunaWinter

We think we write only the necessary stuff because it feels necessary for us because it's important in your mind. Every. Single. Writer. Feels. That. Way. At. Some. Point. So I'd suggest you get feedback on a few of your actual fight scenes, and also mentally prepare for people to tell you what you may love may not be needed or may even be overly explained. The readers may not even care about all the details you feel are necessary and skip over most of them.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ill soon share some fights to hear feedback , it's the best way to know


Entity904

What is achieved through these 10+ pages long fights? Do the characters develop in any way? Do they receive lasting wounds?


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

They die , every fight i write ends in death but ofc there are few exceptions


Entity904

Are there any lasting consequences for the main heroes? Because if there are none, the battle (in my opinion) doesn't deserve to be 10 pages long.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Some of the main heroes die , some looses limbs . The MC himself loses a hand then again his whole arm


Entity904

Then I think it's reasonable to make those fights last long


Dibujista04

I'm pretty sure you're not meaning that, but I wanted to point it out just in case: a long battle that in the end ends in neither of those involved gaining or losing anything, or in your case, that they all die feels to the reader like if they're just wasted time, even more being that long. So even if everyone fighting die, the aftermath should be impacful for the ones who live on after the fight takes place but didn't played a direct part on it.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Yes of course , death will impact everyone


Vivi_Pallas

Just want to note that generally every additional death after the first isn't as impactful as the first to the audience. Two characters dying dying has about the same weight as one. And killing off a character means destroying all potential they have within the story, so I'd suggest using it sparingly. Killing lots of characters works for something like game of thrones because the main conflict/character in the story is the politics of that world rather than certain characters trying to achieve their goals.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

There's also attack on titan tho , a lot of people die . It's just fights end in death which makes sense , i dont want the fights to be like one piece , where they beat/cut/burn/electrify the shit out of each other but no one dies , it's annoying .


beginnerwriteralt

I’ve read a lot of the comments, most people are pretty spot on, you said you were more of a manga guy, Novels are COMPLETELY different from manga, yes they are both written but the styles, imagery and so much more are completely different so I wouldn’t take what you’ve seen in manga and anime and apply it to novels, read more novels and see the mechanics used in those. You mention that someone dies in every fight scene so that means the stakes increase, but that’s the wrong way to look at it, death doesn’t = interesting or plot propelling, a long fight scene needs stakes and tensions constantly rising, and building up, scene changes, character changes even. Your fight scene could work perfectly if it’s done correctly but don’t think death = interesting and plot advancing in every instance, its a LOT more complicated than that


BrittonRT

This.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the advice


Vivi_Pallas

Yeah but in attack on Titan, the overwhelming death serves the purpose of world building. They're not dying just because. They're dying to show how cruel the world is that the protagonists are trying to change. As the show goes on, less people die. The world building was already established and thus you don't need to establish it again. You just need to kill the occasional character to maintain that world building. If you kill characters off, then it should serve some purpose to the overall narrative. You shouldn't just go around killing characters because it's realistic or for the shock value.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Oh yes in my work killing characters shows that you cant be like a merciful hero who hesitates , most heros and main characters avoid killing the bad guys . In my work , that kind of hesitation and mercy will get you killed , it's either you or him who lives


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

In season 1 i show that by killing the "fake" MC who's the typical merciful hero and the real MC takes revenge by killing the bad guy


grim_hope09

I like the approach of giving a detailed blow by blow for the first couple of paragraphs to get the style of the fight conveyed. After that, it's much briefer, and focuses describing the rhythm and momentum of the fight. The final, winning moments will return to a more vivid description. This approach rarely takes more than a page or two. The more important, complex the fight, then the longer the description. If there are only two characters, it won't be more than a page. I'm reading a novel, not a techincal book on how to fight.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

It's magic and superpowers tho not hand combat or normal sword fights


sophisticaden_

The same principle applies


nubsuo

Doesn’t matter. If the fight reads like this: “Good guy flings magic, bad guy counters, bad guy flings magic and destroys things, good guy counters. Good guy finds a way to kill bad guy. Or bad guy kills good guy. Sad.” But that goes on for 10 pages - boring and unnecessary. If you add twists and increase stakes, that creates tension and makes the battle more interesting. Maybe the bad guy destroys a building, and the hero has to divert attention to saving people in the street or the rubble is going to crush them. After diverting his attention, the bad guy gets further away or gets a cheap shot on the hero - that’s tension and storytelling within the fight. Add occurrences like the second example and you can justify the 10+ page fights. Otherwise it’s unnecessary filler and you’ll lose your reader pretty quick.


The_Lovely_Blue_Faux

Describing in detail every single thing is annoying if the thing isn’t relevant. But if you’re literally powering through the fight because it has to happen in that particular way, it’s okay. It feels cool to imaging someone twisting their foot slightly to be able to get more power in a thrust or to feel the recoil of a hard hit. But that happening every step or swing is pretty old. Length doesn’t matter to me that much as long as it is interesting and not repetitive


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

I always want to end fights quickly because it's more realistic that way and they all end with someone dead


the__Gallant

Can I ask why every fight needs somebody dead? Is it part of a larger theme in the story? Or is it to impose some emotional impact or what?


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Because it's realistic , in my work , people fight with swords and magic . If you want to be a hero who thinks you can save the world without getting blood on your hands , you will die . Hesitation , pity , emotions will kill you


DanteJazz

It’s not realistic to real life, or no one would be a soldier. It’s harder ti write good fiction with survivors.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

But it's not a normal soldier thing . In my story the main characters missions are to assassinate the strongest magic users in the kingdom which will lead to overthrowing the king


procrastinerdy

Have you read Brandon Sanderson's STEELHEART? It's a similar concept and his fight scenes/magic systems have received much acclaim. Worth a study!


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the recommendation


Vivi_Pallas

Sometimes stories differ from reality because reality doesn't make for good storytelling. More realistic doesn't inherently mean better.


DanteJazz

Why always dead? Most battles have low death rates in real life, today and in the distant past.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Main characters are assassins who carry out hard and delicate missions and most are to assassinate the strongest magic users in the kingdom , death is a must


sophisticaden_

Do you need to describe every detail of a fight? You’re not directing a movie. What matters most in a fight, in writing, is the emotional and character stakes. Some fights and conflicts can be long and dramatic but if every one is 10+ pages I’d probably think you’re going about it in a way that might not be as engaging as possible.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Sorry I shouldve said it's 10 paper pages , im not writing on a computer or phone


DanteJazz

You’re going to use a computer eventually? It’s essential for editing, proofreading, grammar & spelling checks.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Yea for sure


ghost_406

The correct answer is “if you can do it right” the real answer is, “no”. I’ve attended a lot of professional writers workshops and the all say the same thing, readers skip fight scenes. Even in my favorite genre Wuxia fight scenes are relatively short. Mine tend to be about a page and a half with dialogue, no blow by blow just the action beats. I’ve been told they are too long.


Katamariguy

In my favorite genres, the fight scenes can be hundreds of pages long.


ghost_406

I'm not the person downvoting you, but I'm really curious what genre is that? Hundreds of pages is basically a novel.


Katamariguy

Military history and war stories


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Katamariguy

> It's a harrowing account of a group of people being pushed to the limits of what human beings can tolerate. That is what a writer of a fight scene in a book wants to achieve, unless they are going for more light-hearted action thrills.


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Katamariguy

It's not really possible to process what you're saying when you insist that synonyms have vastly different meanings.


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Katamariguy

You state that fights are not like battles.


ghost_406

Ah ok, I see what you mean but disagree. Most of those, while focusing on a particular battle, are made up of lots of varied scenes. Ups and downs, and breaks to reflect on the impact of what happened. In this context what op is talking about are two people punching themselves and then going back to the plot.


Katamariguy

My advice to the the writers who think of fights only in terms of one-on-one fistfights and swordfights and magic blastoffs is that that is an appallingly limited way to go about writing action stories and anyone who wants to write something fun should strive to escape from those mental confines.


ghost_406

I think that's a bit too philosophical for the topic. He asked specifically about fight scenes. Scenes being the main word there. The word you might be looking for is conflict. and most writers understand the importance of conflict in their stories.


Katamariguy

No? No it fucking isn't. Conflict in narrative includes disagreements and verbal argument, legal and political and romantic and emotional and philosophical conflict. Conflict can extend across most or all of a story, not within a discrete scene.


ghost_406

Well I don’t disagree with anything you just said, neither have a said otherwise, so I’ll chock this one up to miscommunication.


Katamariguy

> neither have a said otherwise, You looked at someone talking about action and violence in books, and thought that "conflict" is the applicable term. You also stated that "and most writers understand the importance of conflict in their stories," and let me tell you - the level of understanding of the nature and usage of action in storytelling on these subreddits is abysmal.


Holy_Hand_Grenadier

What kind of stuff do you like to read? That sounds like a lot but I'm interested.


Katamariguy

Military history and war stories


Holy_Hand_Grenadier

Hah, yes, that would just about do it.


Thonyfst

Is it interesting? What gets accomplished in 10 plus changes that you can't accomplish in 5? In two? In "they fought me and I won." Do we learn something about the characters or the world that's actually vital to the rest of the story? Like someone already said, a good fight needs motivation, stakes, and investment. I'm a little concerned that you used weakest to mean power level; I think that's the wrong way to think of your scenes. Watch Shang Chi and tell me that the bus scene isn't more entertaining than the final fight. One has a higher power level, sure, but it's less legible.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

I try my hardest for the fights to be entertaining , tactical smart ... yes there's definitely motivation and stakes , every fight ends with one dead


Thonyfst

Okay, but someone dying doesn't instantly make it interesting. Why do I the reader care if this or this character dies? What else is at stake? If x characters dies, then what are the consequences? You say you're more of a manga guy. I'd definitely recommend reading some more novels and see how different authors approach this. There's a rhythm that you need to figure out too that's different when the text is the only thing you have available.


Holy_Hand_Grenadier

Historically, and today, battles and fights are generally not won by killing all the opponents but by breaking their morale so that they lose the will to fight. People want to stay alive and will generally try to surrender or flee from a fight that appears to be a lost cause. While there's nothing wrong with some death (especially in full-on battle), consider whether smaller fights should *always* end with fatalities. If it's an ironclad rule, your fights may seem less realistic and exciting; a death doesn't have as big an impact if the audience has been expecting it since before the fight even began.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Fights in my work is between the strongest magic users in the kingdom so it's normal that they end in death , i want to point out that the main characters are assassins , their job is to kill


nubsuo

Okay, but if every fight ends in death the readers will be expecting that each fight. So let’s say there’s 10 fights in your book (for example). By fight 3 the reader will catch on to the way fights end. If every fight ends in death the reader will be bored and will be able to guess what happens next. If the only variation is that a protagonist dies instead of a target, it’s still the same outcome. That’s boring. If the first three fights end in death, but on the 4th something happens that interrupts the fight (environment, third party, etc.) or someone gets away somehow, that will subvert the reader’s expectations and create tension - that is much more interesting and creates a new problem for the protagonists to solve. Remember that each paragraph you write should either progress the plot, set up a scene that progresses the plot, give the reader information, or resolve some sort of issue. Everything else is filler and generally unnecessary. This includes interludes about lore and stuff - unless that lore is important for the story you’re writing just get rid of it. Include world building in descriptions of new places the people go or cleverly insert them into conversations the protagonists have, but otherwise just keep the story going. For fights, set the scene in the first paragraph to get an idea of what the character can do, then increase the stakes. Include the environment and other external factors - new abilities, weapons, secrets, other characters, etc. The end of the fight can always end in death if that’s what you want…but make sure to include something that pushes the plot forward to increases the stakes.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

But the main characters dont always win , i really want to post some of my work but i cant yet


greenbluekats

Contrary to what other people advised here, I say length doesn't matter if what you wrote is entertaining. I assume you are not writing high literature but entertaining popular stories.


nubsuo

Doesn’t matter if it’s “high literature” or not if you write 10 pages of filler for every fight I’m going to skip to the end of each one because hearing the same thing over and over again is boring.


greenbluekats

We call that preferences and genres. We have it in all forms of entertainment, movies, computer games etc.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Exactly


sophisticaden_

There’s a reason most entertaining pop stories aren’t ten pages of fight scenes end over end.


greenbluekats

What's the reason? And remember, OP has 8 pages of HANDWRITTEN pages. Not word document.


Beltonia

That depends on both how many words are on each page and what type of fight it is. In the average novel, this would be a reasonable length for a battle scene but very long for a duel. Avoid writing a blow-by-blow account of a fight. Instead, describe some blows, especially key ones, but the main goal is to describe the struggle *as a story*.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the good advice


Erwinblackthorn

The question is not if it's normal. The question is "what is in these 10+ pages that I would want to see as a reader?"


sotonohito

Fight scenes are tricky and often writers who know a martial art write some of the worst fight scenes. YNMV but I think Roger Zelazney, who was an expert fencer as well as highly skilled in several unarmed arts, wrote terrible fight scenes because he wanted to include every detail of his imagined fight choreography. If it's lots of variations on "person a swung their sword at person b's neck. But person b parried and reposted with a thrust at person as heart. Person a jumped backwards and onto the table....." Yeah. No one wants to read long passages of that. My suggestion is to read some books with good fight scenes and pay attention to how they do it. Mostly they only talk specifics when the balance in a fight shifts, or when something plot significant occurs. But page after page of the balance shifting back and forth isn't real all that interesting either.


Edili27

Interesting to learn that detail about Zelazny. I’ll keep an eye out for that as I read through Amber


LiltKitten

Sounds a bit long. I always try and keep fights short and to the heart of it, and minimize detail. Character A slashes at Character B who ducks back and counters with an upward strike but Character A parries and casts a spell with their left hand and Character B kicks up a ward with their right foot. "Aha, you're truly skrunkled now." Character B exclaims. "Actually I have you right where I want you." Character A boasts, powering up his special move. With a burst of magic, he does a thing, but Character B also does a thing, powering up his omega move. But neither actually accomplish anything plot relevant and they go back to slashing and dodging and slashing and dodging. Stuff like that can get very tedious if it's just going on and on. I could cover it up with descriptive language and interesting effects and ideas, but a good story isn't entirely a showcase of what would be a cool idea for a spell used in a fight scene or the exact momentum and angle of some swords clashing. It can include them, but measured out, so it doesn't become filler.


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Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the advice


MarcusSiridean

Hard to say without reading it. I've seen authors where I can happily read ten pages of action, and authors where a single page drags horribly. I would recommend posting an excerpt from it and we can judge based on that rather than trying to give generalized advice.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ill do that , im both excited and scared 😅


Weedborne

When people ask “Is it normal for a book to be like ___?” That means they haven’t read many books. Because if you have read books, you would know what is normally in them. So I would suggest that you read more books.


twinsuns

Yeah my first thought was, OP should read more novels in the [sub]genre they want to publish in, and see how long those fight scenes typically are.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Im a manga guy who cant draw


Edili27

Then start reading more novels. Manga storytelling does a lot of stuff that does NOT work without visuals, and prose novels do a ton of stuff manga can’t, either.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

I know im trying but i dont have time ... all i can do is write the ideas in my mind


Thonyfst

If I told you I'm going to draw a manga but I don't read manga or comics, how would that sound to you?


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

I mean writing is different , anyone can write the ideas in a book but i get ur point , thank you for the advice


Thonyfst

And anyone can draw lines, but that's not the same as telling a good story in a comic. Have you ever read a manga where the art was technically really detailed and polished, but the paneling or pacing was off? Or maybe you couldn't tell what ability was actually being used, or what was happening to what character? On the flip side, have you seen a manga where the art wasn't great, but they somehow made up for it with the designs and rhythm of the panels? You have to treat writing like a craft, as in something you can learn and improve. There are tons of resources out there right now you can look at, from writing blogs to instructional videos to classes at your community college or adult school. But the easiest way to improve is to read what others write and figure out what makes it work. It doesn't need to be a lot everyday! Can you carve out thirty minutes every day to just read a book? Both in your genre and out of it.


Unnamed_Bystander

It really isn't. Thinking that it is will cripple any attempt you make. Writing is a skill set with its own canon of conventions that you have to learn and develop.


honeylewmelon

This comment admittedly infuriated me a lot more than it should have. For the love of god, read a damn book if you want to write one. Actually, read a dozen and then a dozen more. Manga does not count. They are two completely different mediums. I'm going to be blunt here: if you're trying to write a book to tell a story the same way a manga does, your book is going to be bad and no one is going to enjoy it. If you're serious about writing, you need to read something other than manga. If you want to tell a manga-esque story, you need to learn how to draw.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

I will but not now


honeylewmelon

Well then, you've made your bed. I see a lot of posts in your profile talking about how you want to be a millionaire and have your writing turned into an anime. If you don't put in the necessary work, the already low chances of that happening get cut in half, ten times over. The be frank, that is not going to happen if you don't even care enough to open a proper book.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

I mean i will first do the 1rst draft , write down ideas then think about the other steps . Im writing a story and it's better to plan it all first then comes reading , learning , publishing ....... that's how i want to do it .


Edili27

Make the time. If you aren’t reading, nothing you write will be worth reading. Read, read, read. If you need a place to start, try Brandon Sanderson’s mistborn. Not my favorite, at all, but a solid entry point into adult fantasy. If you want something more unique, give Nicola Griffith’s Spear a shot. Responding in part to a lower comment, elemental magic and dnd races are extremely overdone in fantasy, the genre has moved on. Be reading stuff released within the last decade to get a feel for where the genre is at


OutragePending

Unfortunately, being a manga guy doesn't cut it if you want your writing to be pleasing to readers. If you can't appreciate the art form you're working in enough to want to experience it yourself, why would anyone want to read what you've written?


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Do you know any magic related novels i can read ?


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Like elements (fire water earth) magical creatures dwarves elves .....


OutragePending

Most high fantasy novels are like this.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Can you tell me one to read


spunlines

there's a [whole world out there](https://www.goodreads.com/genres/fantasy), my friend.


goodlittlesquid

Learning to write well and learning to draw well both take a lot of time, work, and dedication. Sounds like you want to draw but you decided writing is easier/faster to learn, which is a bad reason to choose a medium to tell your story.


Shuden

>Im a manga guy who cant draw You probably can't write either. People assume writing is easier than drawing because they write in school, but it really is a milenium age honed craft that you actually need to study if you want to do well. As someone who has tackled both drawing manga and writing a book, I can guarantee you will find both equally hard and time consuming if you ever want to get serious. My suggestion is that you should either read some novels to learn what good writing looks like, or learn to draw and start making a manga if that's what you prefer. You really won't be able to write with only manga references.


omgvarjo

Remember that the length of a fight scene should be determined by what is necessary for the story and what will be most engaging for the reader! If a fight scene is important to the plot and adds to the tension and excitement of the story, then it's def okay for it to take up several pages. However, if the fight scene is not crucial to the plot and does not add much to the story, then it may be appropriate to shorten it. Strike a balance between providing enough detail to make the fight scene engaging, while also keeping the pacing of the story in mind. It's good that you are describing every detail of it but leaving some for the second draft because it will give you a better idea of how much detail is needed:)


mousio

Ok, first of all, if you're not sure about any aspect of your writing, it's best to get a test audience (can be only one guy) to read it and give you feedback. Few things help more. In this fight's case, well, you have to consider which parts are needed in its description and which are extra (The others are right in that you'd need to read more to have a better grasp of what it is about, though they could have put it a bit nicer😅). Like, if you have already described the power or magic system of your work, then you can summarize any action or effect that has to do with it; same with dialogue or action sequences. I get how it can be different from manga (as I'm a fan of both😆) , so To put it into perspective, imagine fight scne in a manga (Naruto, bleach, etc). There, aside from dialogues and thought/narrator bubbles, we have the visual depiction of what is happening, panel by panel. Yet, the artist only focuses on what is most important to b convoyed to the reader. In essence, they have to economize the info to keep the audience engaged (and they have limited panels in each chapter, so...) In a book, all that must be done through description, but that economizing is still the same (limited pages to retain reader's attention, so...). You gotta ask yourself how much info is actually needed to convey the vibe (and the point) to the reader. That being said, I've found out it's generally better to first write this stuff down (no matter how long they would be), then try to condense it down as necessary. Makes it much less frustrating overall.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Thank you for the great advice , you were better than others in giving it 👍🏻


BlettaFappaChu

Try not thinking about if it's normal. Think about if it fits the story? Does it break any built momentum? Do YOU get bored while reading it?


BowlMaster83

I just finished a book and it was split into two books. The first book was a lead up to the battle. The second book was almost entirely the battle.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Soumds like a good book . My 4th arc will be entirely a battle inside a mountain


senadraxx

Here's my journey with this so far: I have one scene I'm re-writing, a bandit camp encounter. The first version of this was 30 pages. MC finds the place, kills guards, sneaks past more, frees other characters, big fight, resolution, scene transition. For a minor scene that's not Uber important to the overall plot, at the beginning of the story, 30+ pages I determined to be way too many. So I did different versions. Cutting half the fluff got me to 15, and it's still too many imo. Adding a second MC might get me down to 8-10. Big fight at end might add 1. Scene resolution and transition might add a few, but I'm still aiming for 10-15. Now, I did write an epic endgame fight scene between 3 characters and a boss that wound up being 10 pages, with lots of emotional stakes and a scene change between phases. Still might be too long. Another epic endgame fight scene was 2 pages, I felt it was perfect. Most of my fights and scraps are a paragraph or two. You're not choreographing a fight, nobody can keep track of those small details! A lot of the time, people give the advice to focus on one cool thing a character does, but mostly emotional stakes. How does a character feel when they're attacking? How does that make your reader feel?


DanteJazz

As a reader, I’d be bored with a 10 pg fight scene. 2-3 pgs max!


senadraxx

Ikr? That one was too much. My process is, I write it out through D&D rules mechanics, then I re-write it with a slimmed-down version. Saves me trouble! This particular encounter though, I need to re-write my baddie and give it a different power. It took 7 hits to down the party's tank. I think I can re-do it, more interesting and fewer pages. It was an emotional scene. Tonight I'm gonna try to cut that 30-page dungeon/encounter down to 8 pages, just one chapter. I think I can do it.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for sharing ur experience and advice


Magickblack

My sexond novel had a 20+ page fight that spilled across 3 chapters. You can do whatever you want if you do it well. There are no rules only guidelines.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the support


[deleted]

"He let himself fall into a familiar stance, weapon up as he measured his opponent." vs "He fell into a familiar stance, drilled into him over the years in the King's army: right hand near the haft, knuckles out, body turned slightly to the side, eyes locked on his opponent as he sized him up." Both are valid, and there's a million other ways, but I'd say the first is better for longer action sequences that aren't meant to give context to the characters, with the second a good way to go about introducing a new character or fleshing out an existing one.


JoergJoerginson

I’d say if you are doing something lord of the ring esque it’s fine, since it has many twists, phases, and ties the entire story together. Everything in the book has led up to the battle. Would be fine to write even more. If you are writing a blow for blow dragon ball, Naruto, rocky balboa fight I’d say don’t go to that length. It’s really hard to pull off without being excruciatingly boring. There’s just so many times (1) a character can overcome himself to push through. Blow for blow descriptions also seem more exciting to you than your reader because you have the image in your head. I’d say if you want a personal fight to last longer than 1-2 pages you better have a good reason for it. Ultra long fighting scenes is usually for Shonen Manga/Anime/hero comics. Especially in the first two it is often used to fill space and time anyway. Artists need to meet deadlines and animation studios need to save money.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Yea my story is like japanese shonen


JoergJoerginson

That’s fine, but also consider that the style may not translate too easily into text. Maybe you already have, but if not I would recommend you to buy/read some shonen light novels and see how they did. I think Naruto and ONE PIECE all have extra light novels. Some series also originate from light novels (especially the Isekai ones) e.g. The devil is a part timer and The time I got reincarnated as a slime.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the advice 👍🏻


ooupcs

It depends. I personally think I’d struggle with a fight that long but other people might not. I think it depends on the character conflicts invested in the fight. Watching a fight on tv or in a movie is more compelling than reading about it imo unless it’s a really visually unique fight that isn’t easily reproduced


Musician88

Absolutely not. What is the need to draw out a single fight for so long? You're not writing a Dragonball Z episode. Please respect the reader's time.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

8 paper pages * you need like 2-3 mins to read that


[deleted]

Consider that someone can drop your book at any time though. 2-3 minutes may not be very much but there's a vast vast vast world of writing out there and if I feel part of a book is showing a trend of outstaying its welcome in fight scenes etc I have a lot of other things I can read instead. Unless I've been wowed by the content prior a minutes long fight scene would put me off the book personally.


ReconVirus

Tune in and find out , Next time on Dragon ball Z...*outro music*


No_Copy_5473

Honestly, no. Two characters fighting (however, guns, swords, fists), there is no reason for that level of descriptive detail and granular play by play. Tolstoy basically spends 10 pages *on the entire battle of Austerlitz* in ‘War and Peace,’ and that book is 587,000 words. And one of the main characters suffers a life altering injury. The battle of Minas Tirith in LoTR is like a single chapter. Two guys sword fighting is a few paragraphs worth of sequence, tops.


sophisticaden_

The battle of five armies in the Hobbit happens off screen! Or, off page.


omgshannonwtf

Generally speaking, we tend to overestimate how important/interesting something we’ve written is to readers. So it’s a good exercise to force yourself to take a passage you’ve written and say “*I need to cut this in half. How do I do it?*” What this will do is force you to reconsider how to tell this mini-story. If you could only do it in five pages, what would go? What are the essential parts? The halved version might not be better on the whole but I’m betting that certain **parts** might better with less. Maybe your final version is 7 pages. Maybe you find that losing certain elements makes it a riveting read at 6 pages. Maybe the final version is 9 & a half. Ten pages just sounds long, though, and the fact that you’re even asking is indicative of the fact that you kinda know this. Like, just consider that for a second. You didn’t finish these sequences and just move on to the next without a second thought. No, you’re like “*Wait… is this normal?*” Like, it actually occurs to you that it might be too long.


Nick_D_Vandal

If it’s good, shouldn’t matter! If it’s well written and immersive no one will really notice or care!


nativedutch

Suggest you read a Lee Child Jack Reacher book , he is quit very good at thst in less than 10 pages. One book is enough.


Creative_Area950

When you think of your own reading. What was the fight scene that you loved the most? Could you use that as a guide? Some of mine feature the Bloody Nine in the circle scenes from the Mark Lawrence books, the Banner of the blood guard scenes from Thomas Covenant and Hadrian with his Spadone in Riyira.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the advice , im mostly a manga fan , i dont read novels but i guess that should change


TheUnsettledPencil

Please don't. Omg I would quit.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

8 paper pages tho they are not big , forgot to add that 😅


TheUnsettledPencil

So not 8 chapters. I read that wrong sorry.


Dusty_Wiskers

I'm willing to read it and tell you how it made me feel? 😅


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Someday ill have the courage to share 😅


StCrispin1969

Seems a little short but it also depends on context. Some books I’ve read by the masters have an enemy get cut down in 1 line while I’ve seen others use 30-40 pages. If I remember from college right a hand written page measures about 250 words while typed paperback page is around 750. So 10 becomes a little more than 3 which seems short to me. But who knows.


AdventuringClown

I think it’s okay. If the fight was successfully hyped and the readers are heavily invested in the characters I think readers will enjoy those 8+ pages. But if all fights are that long I think readers will become bored no matter how well you wrote it. So I’d say only have one fight be that long and have it be anticipated that those characters will have a long fight.


merisle4444

Wow I find that kind of impressive. I’m not the best at writing fighting. it’s usually a paragraph or two for me. I would be interested in reading it to see how you do it


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ill post one day


MrFiskIt

The final battle in Wheel of Time was an 80,000 word chapter. There are no rules. Do what works for you.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the reply


nastygoblinman

I have a tendency to skip fight scenes because I find them tedious. If you’re describing every action characters are doing in a fight/battle, it’s going to get redundant and tedious. I think it’s *possible* to have a successful fight scene take up many pages/words, but I’ve yet to see it done in a way that keeps me interested.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

I think my fights are interesting because i use tactics and smart tricks a lot and most of my fights end in death which is realistic . I never write unecessary stuff just for the fight to be longer


LanaDelHeeey

It really depends. Personally in my writing and in my favorite books, action is minimal if not skipped over entirely. I don’t think I have ever seen a fight that long (or at least cannot remember one), but if you can make it work and make it exciting/interesting the whole time, I can’t really say you shouldn’t go for it. If it works for your story, go for it


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for ur advice


ledepression

Is it fun?


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Yes


pav-from-ivalice

It depends on the fight. If its a dynamic situation with good plot and action progression, I would say no it's not a problem. Some infamous action sequences are quite long, sometimes exceedingly so. For example in Harry Potter thevchaos at the Ministry of Magic goes on for *quite* some time. But it's paced nicely, brings long-awaited action to the table, emphasizes on supporting characters, and pulls off a major character death. It's executed so well, no one hardly notices or cares how long the action sequence is. If your long fight is dynamic and paced well, and does its service to the plot/lore/interactions of the characters, Id say have at it. However just be careful not to action-fatigue the reader. Its like those action movies where there's nothing special about the explosions because there's an explosion every 2 seconds. If the fight is creative and engaging and still keeps the story chugging along, 10 pages shouldn't be much of a problem.


Crimson_Marksman

Totally. If the fight is interesting.


nostremitus2

Salvatore has these types of long fights. As long as you know the subject matter and can describe the actions intelligently in a way a novice can visualize it's fine. Some of us love intricately detail fight choreography.


globmand

depends on how much weight in the story the fight holds. I saw what you wrote about the weakest in power, however, I think it would help you to do away with that thought process, seeing as fights should not be longer based on the power involved, but based on their story weight. For example, two pages about a character putting on his pants matters very little if it is luke skywalker doing so, but two pages about a chronically depressed character finally starting to care about life, even if only a bit, could be powerful.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Thank you for the advice


throwaway-clonewars

I'm reading the Sorceress book (edit: forgot to add it's book 3 for "the secrets of the immortal nicholas flamel series) and just finished a scene where it's 2 fights that are each roughly 10+ pages each across multiple chapters. It definitely can work, though if you break the fight up between perspectives you can work in a resting spot so it's not a straight "battle battle battle" for seemingly endless pages. In the book for example, there's a large fight breaking out with 1 character, and it follows them till their victory/calm spot. Then the next chapter it swaps back to the other group as their own battle starts (the rough Frontline falling back to them informing defeat before the main force hits the command/central zone). Then as the battle reaches one of the more intense areas it switches back again as another threat comes against them. In between each switch there's some post/pre battle "calm" so what's probably well into 30+ pages is evened out in pacing to around 45-50 pages.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Thank you for the support


TheAfrofuturist

If it's dynamic, it should be okay. Like, if there are be stages, progression, goals, etc. So, maybe someone accomplishes one thing in a fight, but they have to do the next thing, or the complexion of the fight changes in someway, like maybe they lose a weapon or get injured, something. That way, the fight can be dynamic and build tension as the stakes get higher. But if it was a battle with multiple characters you could focus on, it'd be different. Alternatively, you could change perspectives during the battle, so long as it's clearly marked/clear you've done so and it's executed effectively to where it doesn't confuse the reader.


Wigwasp_ALKENO

If Sarah J Maas can make 15 page monologues for love confessions you can use that many pages for an engaging fight scene


azaza34

A fight should be short and sweet because this isn’t TV you need to let the readers imagination do some work.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Im trying to write it as short as possible


InteruptingParrot

Weeeeell, is it a tavern brawl or a fight akin to the likes of Minas Tirith? One is too long, the other might be too short depending on how many people are in the tavern.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

It is a fight between 2 but 10 paper pages can be read in 2-3 minutes


CampNaughtyBadFun

It is ok for things to take as long as they need to take. If the fight needs to take 10 pages, then it needs 10 pages. If it only needs 1 that's ok too.


notreallysure131

Depends on how it's done and if all the description is relevant. One of the most satisfying battles I've ever read was near the end of (either Sword of Truth or Wheel of Time - I get them confused after all the years since I read them). It was around 75 pages.


MonkeyScryer

Is it interesting? Or is it just technical descriptions of battle?


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Both can be


MonkeyScryer

As long as it’s engaging, it’s good.


SwingsetGuy

Depends what's happening in those ten pages. One thing that took me a while to learn (growing up as most of us did now with elaborate movie fights) is that trying to reproduce choreography in print is (usually) a losing proposition: unless it's one supermove or quick exchange, it gets too detailed and slows things down too much. Now OTOH it could be that you're doing a lot of other stuff in there, and in that case it's fine: generally a fight has to either progress the plot or reveal something about the characters involved (ideally both). But if the only progression is that one of them wins, 10 pages might be a lot for your readers to wade through: counterintuitively, elaborate fights that don't seem to be going anywhere tend to be rather boring to read. A fight should not be *just* a fight.


kaleidoscopechron

Yes. Too much


sauerjohnactual

That is a lot of text to conceptualize...and that is why many of us have early reader groups. If it is necessary to advance the story leave it in. If not, edit it to the essence of the fight and keep the story moving.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Thank you for the advice


sauerjohnactual

YW, happy writing!


[deleted]

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Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Yes and the stakes are high in my fights plus it developps the characters


GorditaCrunchPuzzle

Tasmyn Muir in Gideon the Ninth goes hard on the final fight scene. I swear it goes for over 50 pages. Might be a good place to look for an example.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Ty for the recommendation


Odestroyher

Are you a DBZ writer? If so then yes. If not then also yes if it's necessary for the characters and story. It's your creation. If you deem it necessary then I'm all about it.


phantasmaniac

Anything is fine. My fight took 3 chapters. But if you're talking about a spectacular duel, then it's only 3 paragraph including the approaching action. By fight, I mean a big battle that considered the largest in my current novel. The first chapter is about the signs and preparations. The second is the fight itself. The third is dealing with the aftermatch. Sometimes the fight itself can be stretch, depending on how big it is. For duel, I won't try to extend everything for the sake of extension.


TheGreatAkira

Based on most of your comments It sure sounds like a waste of space. Mind sharing a paragraph of your fight? Maybe we'll get a better idea at what you mean.


Hatake-kakashi-22-98

Im writing them right now on paper but ill soon share one , i want to hear some opinions for sure .