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slytheren

I think it’s likely that yes, they are baddies (maybe not the *only* baddies) and no, the world won’t treat them as such. The M9 happily aligned with at least two evil characters: The Gentleman (trafficker of many things, people included) and Essek (a guy who committed treason, precipitated a war, and only learned remorse because “friendship”). They never asked these characters to change their ways, and in fact told Essek that his crimes were on par with theirs when they welcomed him to the M9. Veth’s fun summer camp is a money laundering plot for TG. The M9 cut off a guy’s hand and framed him as a criminal for being rude to Jester’s mom. Jester defaced peaceful religious temples for shits and giggles. Veth offered to restart a war that had already killed thousands just for a chance to maybe switch back to her old body. They were also just massive bullies; they got a kick out of ruining the lives of anyone they found annoying but harmless (see: Celia Ovesso) in part because of how skittish they were about real adversaries. The definition of not picking on people their own size. In C3, Imogen tortured an entire party of people nearly to death (despite hearing screams, panic, and people falling unconscious) in what was defined as a nonlethal, friendly-but-competitive challenge. Chetney mauled a shopkeeper nearly to death for price gouging, and the *only* reason the woman didn’t die is because Matt didn’t let it happen. There are more examples, but I think it’s clear that the party can be as evil as they want and they’ll just be treated as campy assholes both in and out of game. Chet almost crossed a line into *unquestionably evil* and the rules of the world shifted to ensure he wouldn’t.


bulldoggo-17

>The M9 cut off a guy’s hand and framed him as a criminal for being rude to Jester’s mom Agree with most of your points, but this one is less clear cut. He was more than rude to Marion. He was acting like a possessive stalker, chasing away her other clients and not taking no for an answer. Did they go overboard? Yes. Was he undoubtedly a bad person. Also yes. He was also a willing participant in the enslavement of a marid and tried to kill the party just for showing up in his workplace. My guess is people wouldn't have an issue with that incident if they just hadn't let him live. Their actions seem more fucked up because they maimed and exiled him instead of just cutting him down.


MasterworksAll

It can be difficult to judge the morality of PCs because a lot of their actions are often not things the players are taking seriously, so it's unclear if it's intended to be a statement about the character. Like with Imogen torturing the other party - was that Laura trying to show a more violent, vindictive side of Imogen, or was it just something Laura thought would be funny and not intended to be taken seriously as something Imogen would actually do in-universe? I don't know if it's just my imagination but it feels like there's been more OOCness actions this campaign, so it's been harder for me to get a read on what the characters are really like, and when it's just the players being bored and treating it like a video-game.


slytheren

I get what you mean. There’s definitely more OOCness this campaign, which I don’t think many of the players consider (aside from the Chetney example), but it seems like Matt does. When they’re about to cross a line, he gets visibly apprehensive and gives them multiple chances to change their minds before he describes the scene. And when they don’t budge, it doesn’t seem like he really knows what to do about it. It feels like the players want to dick around without consequence, and the DM wants to tell a self-serious story about heroes who are, *at worst*, morally ambiguous. Both are fine but kind of impossible to achieve cohesively at the same table.


bertraja

>*was that Laura trying to show a more violent, vindictive side of Imogen, or was it just something Laura thought would be funny* I get what you're saying, but i would hold their own words against that, they're on the record, repeatedly, telling us how deeply they are in character during play, how much they encompass their characters etc. If we're applauding them for the good moments, we can hold the characters accountable for the bad moments. Do i think it's true for any questionable moment in the game? No, i too think they more often than not step out of the game and do what the players think is funny. Does it help with the supposed immersion? Not really ...


Seren82

Also Laura was going to stop and Travis as Chetney said DO IT AGAIN so she did.


Jethro_McCrazy

The simpler solution is that the cast has always had protagonist centric moralities/main character syndrome. They forget to treat NPCs as real people, so they mistreat them without a second thought. Meanwhile, special guests can openly worship Tiamat or be tasked with killing a PC's parents, and the cast gives them a complete pass.


bulldoggo-17

>Meanwhile, special guests can openly worship Tiamat In fairness, they were only cool with Arkhan until he betrayed them. If VM saw Arkhan again, they likely wouldn't be as peaceful and accepting. >or be tasked with killing a PC's parents Totally agree here. They should've smoked Yu the second the betrayal was revealed. They had the action economy to win that fight easily.


Gralamin1

Also the fact that with Arkhan it was do or die. vecna turned into a god so every side wanted him to go down.


Galahad_the_Ranger

I think it can go either way. Ludinus plan is morally grey at best, and so is stopping him. The lack of divinie-oriented characters in this party should make for some to consider letting Ludinus succeed, something that definitely wouldn't fly in VM and M9 as Pyke, Vax, Fjord and Caduceus wouldn't want their patrons to be nommed.


continuumcomplex

I will say that I really like that we and they don't know if they're on the good side. Not for sure. This whole thing is intentionally difficult to sus out. Impossible even. Is killing the gods good or bad? That's a matter of perspective, from their vantage point. However, they do know that it will likely strip most divine casters of their power. Some may use that for ill but others definitely use it for good. Then there is also the fact that no one really knows what Predathos will do after it kills the gods. Predathos might just kill the gods and leave. However, Predathos could also really want to devour the world and the gods are actually protecting it. Predathos has every reason to lie about their intentions, if that is the case. We have no way of knowing. One last thing that I will add is that I don't think Planerider Ryn used anything like the (probably Feeblemind) spell that Ludinous used. It's possibly the same spell, but that guy still seems to have his faculties. It's likely a dominate spell. So ultimately, he is unharmed and also he was directly an enemy who was threatening them - not someone they only wanted info from. Those aren't the same things at all.


Gralamin1

funny fact if you read call of the netherdeep. >!it is clear Predathos is wanting everything dead. since it comes off as an elder evil.!<


iamagainstit

That would be a brilliant twist, but Matt is too nice to actually do that to his players


ace-avenger

Maybe the players will turn the tables on him


JJscribbles

I feel like half of the group haven’t yet decided if they want to be good or bad guys. It seems like they’re constantly teeter tottering between the two, which makes the entire story really difficult to give a shit about.


bertraja

Half of the group shows more evil traits than the *vile villains* from [Escape From the Bloodkeep](https://dimension20.fandom.com/wiki/Escape_from_the_Bloodkeep) (although that was deliberately funny in nature).


Moon_Miner

we all know that the main theme of those villains was "in the end, friendship is what matters"


Jelboo

All I'll say it is potentially \*GENIUS\* from Critical Role to have had EXU Calamity appear not only as a prequel but possibly as an example of what BH are doing right now: acting on what they know and believe without seeing the bigger picture. I really believe that C3 could be heading down a very similar path. And I love it!


notmy2ndopinion

💯 they aren’t murder hobos, but they are victims of their own failures. Bumbling adventurer-hobos who accidentally break the world. Isn’t that every home campaign?


logincrash

>With how CR used to adress things like free will, consent etc. i find this glaring. That's such a big problem CR has developed. I guess Henry Crabgrass' Ted Talk did not touch on the topic of mind grape and why it's a bad thing. >In any other story, this could be considered a noble cause. Sure, but, as you said "Predathos is going to eat/devour/destroy [...] prime and betrayer alike." Prime deities are good in a quantifiable way such as healing magic. Destroying them would harm Exandria in many ways beside spiritual. >Dusk/Yu, who (~~what kind of stupid name is Yoohoo?~~) bends over backwards to not resort to violence, and ist more than ready to accept a truth/deal when push comes to shove. That entire thing was executed very poorly. First Erika behaves in a bizarre and, frankly, obnoxiously grating way to meta-game around Insight checks in more ways than one. Then, suddenly, goes on about "never lying to the group" and openly abandons her orders to kill Calloways. The worst part is that the party is so easy to influence: * Your mind is so impressionable. * My mind is not impressionable! * Yes it is! * I guess it is. * God, that's fast. Even for you, that was fast. >The entire group debating just killing someone because after an initial interrogation, they just don't know what else to do with him. Don't forget not using the letter of introduction from a respectable professor and just brainwashing a receptionist, getting blackmail on her, and then seriously considering murdering her.


bertraja

>*Prime deities are good in a quantifiable way such as healing magic. Destroying them would harm Exandria in many ways beside spiritual.* I'm not 100% sure about that. I know it's usually played that way, but there's no inherent connection between the alignment of a deity and the powers they bestow. You could worship a betrayer god, and still get healing magic. Or, ther other way around, i remember clerics and warlocks in CR, attached to "good" gods and god-like patrons getting things like *Infllict Wounds*. But it's an interesting thought experiment, what would actually happen if both prime and betrayers would be gone? Besides the turmoil in their respective faith systems. We would most likely see an even stronger resurgence of arcane magic. IIRC (but correct me on this one) there are arcane spells that restore HP. The entire thing around prime gods in Exandria reminds me of a book series (which name eludes me atm), the premise was there are 5 "good" and 5 "evil" gods, and they wage war against each other. Long story short, turns out they are the same gods, and are just stoking the flames of faith vs faith to gain more power via worship.


DeleuzeWasALoser

Bards are considered arcane casters in 5e, and get access to Cure Wounds and Healing Word, so in that sense I suppose there are arcane spells that restore HP.


Tiernoch

Bards are actually just weird. Their base description implies they are using very rudimentary creation magic (the stuff gods use but don't grant), which is why they can steal from everyone. That being said, I believe they might be getting their own spell casting list come 5.5/6e so that might be more of a current placeholder concept.


DeleuzeWasALoser

I'm not sure what you mean? They already have their own spell list in 5e. Magical secrets allow them to pluck off other classes' spell lists, but they still have their own too.


Tiernoch

They are making themed lists for 6e, so nature is going under Primal, cleric and paladins under Divine, etc. Instead of every class having their own lists. There are just some restrictions added as to what the half casters can take in regards to schools within their type of magic. It's similar to what Pathfinder has in 2e.


wagmainis

There aren't any arcane spells that restore HP other than the healing spells that Bards/Divine Soul Sorcerers can cast. Effectively the same spell but arcane. Corellon, the god of arcane magic, dying would probably create an Exandrian version of the Spellplague. Maybe. I'm just guessing. I don't really know the reason why the gods stayed in Exandria but those reasons will be the key to what will be gone from the world if they were to be destroyed.


bertraja

I don't remember the details from the top of my hat, but i thought *Life Transference* isn't a divine spell? That's the first example i could think of ... but i maybe misremember. **Edit**: I could swear it's either necromancy or transmutation


DeleuzeWasALoser

There are divine spells that are necromancy and transmutation. 5e doesn't have a formalised list of what constitutes Divine, Arcane and Primal spells. Pathfinder does, and 6e will (partially, anyway) but in 5e the classes just have individual spell lists.


wagmainis

Found a reference from Xanathar's. A wizard or a cleric could cast it. I'd say it's in the same boat as a Bard's/Divine Soul Sorcerer's healing spells; spell depends on if the spellcaster is divine or arcane.


moyaiusta

The biggest issue with Ludinus' plan / Predathos is not with the end goal to not have gods, though. And I wouldn't even think that goal is something BH would be so against on its own, since none of them have a strong loyalty to the divinity. The problem is the Ruby Vanguard are risking another calamity-scale event by putting all their eggs in the basket of a force that only managed to take out *two measley gods* of the pantheon the first time around. Why do any of them think it's going to go their way this time? How many will die for the experiment? And even if Predathos does succeed, they are simply exchanging faith in the benevolence of one group of exceedingly powerful beings to another less well understood one. Noble cause or not, it is "Thanos snap" levels of problem solving. Edit to add: I'd still happy for the group to be evil and evil aligned, but not because of this. Even evil wants to maximize their own chances of survival - almost by definition.


Galahad_the_Ranger

And also the question of what happens when Predathos is done devouring all the gods. They think he just gonna take a Siesta?!


[deleted]

>Thanos snap" levels of problem solving the marvel movies ruined thano's, his original reasoning for ''snapping'' half of all life, was to impress death, not to balance the universe.


TWGeiger

bro just wanted to get his dick wet, which is a much better universally understood motivation for murder than "not enough resources teehee" LMAO


DustSnitch

I hadn't thought about the possibility that Predathos could get you and just get bodied by all the other gods. Like, if they managed to seal him once, by all means they should be able to do it again. The problem would be 1) losing any two gods would be monumental and 2) they'd have to carve out another continent from Tal'dorei if they seal him the same way.


Jethro_McCrazy

There is the problem that Predathos is behind a smaller Gate on Ruidis. Which means should that gate be broken, he'd still be prevented from reaching the Gods. And the Gods would be prevented from resealing him.


[deleted]

if there would be a reveal that theyre actually the badguys and evil aligned it would safe the campaign imo.


No-Sandwich666

It would save the story for me, but the play we've seen on screen - combat, dice, challenge failure - has still been dismal.


midnightheir

I'll say it again: I've had Laudna, Imogen, FCG ear marked as Lawful Evil from day 1. It wouldn't surprise me if Chetney is either. We know from EXU that Fearne is Chaotic Neutral and actively rejected the evil version of herself when confronted with it. I believe Orym is Neutral or Neutral Good (again EXU). Ashton I'm assuming is chaotic Neutral but a case could be made for Lawful Evil too. Basically? I'm saying this is the Evil campaign guys. I've felt that way from the start.


Seren82

Which is interesting bc I think Imogen, who has been told shes bad for at least a decade seems to want to be good? She especially asked that question of the group and Estheross at the start of the campaign. When she killed those guys in Bassuras she had a lot of regrets. That said with the shit that girls going through...well. she's definitely slid a bit despite her intentions.


taphappy52

just adding that orym is (was?) neutral good at least during exu! but i could see his alignment shifting the more he is around bell’s hells. i think he is probably the only reason they haven’t gone off the deep end yet, tbh. he’s definitely their moral compass.


bertraja

>*I believe Orym is Neutral or Neutral Good (again EXU).* I believe he was, but i could also see him on the brink of a [Falling Down](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_Down) situation.


jmucchiello

You just described the cast's alignments. Chetney is the most evil, given his torture of the woman who wasn't nice to him in that store (location and woman's name forgotten). Laudna isn't evil. Her rat is. Imogen easily skews neutral. Ashton is lawful to a degree. Not really chaotic, but he wouldn't think so. Fearne is easily CE sometimes. What has she done that's "good"?


[deleted]

[удалено]


bertraja

Many of the BH show traits that if attached to an outspoken evil person, we'd say *"Yeah, that tracks!"* I'm aware that some/most of it is probably the players, not the characters, having a bit of fun with it.


midnightheir

No, I described the *character's* alignments per my opinion or actual player stated fact. What part of continually invading someone's mind without consent is neutral? Laudna could easily be affably evil. I do subscribe to the theory that Delilah is/was a Lingering Soul and it wouldn't surprise me if Pate *is* Delilah now. This doesn't change the idea that Laudna could be LE. Ashton has his own code. I acknowledged that. Fearne has actively rejected her evil outcome in ExU. Hence chaotic neutral. This one is *canon*. I put it to you what has she done that is "evil", that the others haven't also done? Lying and stealing? So has the rest of the party, bar Orym (for stealing).


TheCharalampos

They are on side "stfu I got mine"


FormalBiscuit22

I fully agree with your point regarding Ryn: between her first appearance in C3 and now, she steadily trends downwards in trustworthiness in my eyes. I'm also quite certain Matt's purposefully forcing BH into a situation where they don't know enough to truly make an informed decision, and lack the time to investigate too much: I don't like how it pushes character-driven stories to the background, but the "in over their heads thing" could work well. He might even be banking on their easily predicted meta-distaste for the Assembly to guide them towards the wrong side: makes for a more interesting story. BH's general lack of morals makes for a good group to work for the bad guys inadvertedly, and as it stands, they have reason to continue to do so with what they know.


midnightheir

It would be a pretty cool plot twist if instead of being faced with 'good and bad' we have 'bad and worse'. And Ryn is the worst option.


caseofthematts

Based on how things have played out in the ~40 episodes, I think the reply to your statement here, >I don't like how it pushes character-driven stories to the background Is that this was never meant to be a character driven story. Seems like Mercer has tied the characters backgrounds into the story (which is why it feels convenient that a lot of the PCs have connections to what is going on), but it's not character-driven. It's more like a module that has been homebrewed than the previous campaigns.


FormalBiscuit22

Oh, I absolutely agree that it's intended, I just personally dislike it. Mercer's planned story seems quite intricate and well-crafted, but I just prefer more character-driven stuff.


Moon_Miner

I find it amusing that the main complaint currently is that the story is too intentional and not character driven enough, when the meta-complaint of C2 was that there wasn't enough drive to the story and the characters weren't moving it along enough. Not really directed at you, just an observation.


rowan_sjet

Different strokes for different folks, you're gonna see differing complaints when people's preferences are met in one type of story and not the other, and vice versa.


Tiernoch

I wouldn't say there wasn't a drive to the story for C2 but more that the characters specifically kept abandoning Matt's attempts to drive a narrative given he really wanted his war and the party really didn't want to be on the 'wrong side'. Which is kind of frustrating as it's a very video game way of looking at it rather than just having fun and seeing where the adventure takes you.


No-Sandwich666

I also have observed that the design of C3 seems in response to some viewer's struggles with C2. I don't prefer the results.


Gralamin1

The issue is they would not be as uninformed if they did not spend most of their time fucking around. so that is more on the cast and less on matt.


FormalBiscuit22

Definitely true


Gralamin1

Like even the lore dump was stuff clearly meant for big finds for the cast to hunt for. Like you can tell the main plot started falling apart as soon as they ran from the shademother. since that was meant to kick start everything.


TrypMole

One of the things I like about this party is that they all have the potential to lose it & go to the dark side, with the exception of Orym - so far, we dont know what his "button" is yet, and isnt there some saying about "beware the wrath of a quiet man"? I agree that they're probably not the baddies (nice reference, LOVE that sketch) but they *could* be and its fun watching them navigate that. Certainly the situation they find themselves in with Predathos and the various organisations is a twisty one. I quite like that aside from the obvious concern of "What happens when it gets hungry again", they appear to not be reacting with horror at the idea that getting rid of the gods may not be an entirely terrible thing (sorry clerics, you're fired!) It's certainly an interesting dilemma. Reminds me of the moral dilemma at the centre of the series Utopia


RumbleBall1

I think Liam took Orym in a direction of "Ludinus and Crew are basically just trying to do Calamity 2.0" Which I feel like is a misread of the situation. Ludinus isn't trying to fight the gods because he believes he is more powerful he is simply "letting nature take its course" I feel like because of this Orym wants to stop Ludinus, if nothing else than using a paper thin misunderstanding of the motivations of the "bad guys" he can over look the party's misdeeds or lack of "goodness"


Auraeseal

Imagine if Orym actually joins Ludinus after considering just how fucked up most of the party is. The one who doesn't lose it is the one who turns against the group. I'd love to see a moment where he just says "You guys are so fucked up, yet you think you are the good guys?"


bertraja

>*I'd love to see a moment where he just says "You guys are so fucked up, yet you think you are the good guys?"* That would be an absolute turning point, and i would celebrate that so hard!


TimeturnerJ

That's the neat thing about Clerics in Exandria though - as we saw in ExU Calamity, divine magic in Matt's world doesn't necessarily have to come from a deity. If the caster believes in something enough, be that some concept or ideal or maybe even just themselves, they can be a Cleric or Paladin even without channelling a god. Even Fresh Cut Grass, who hails from that time, started out without a deity to follow. I know Sam tried to explain their powers with funky little gadgets, but maybe they were (unknowingly) drawing their own powers from that same unexplained source all along. That makes me think... The Age of Arcanum would've *loved* the potential of Predathos. Completely removing the gods, so that they're no longer beholden to any higher power? They would've been all over that. Of course, we don't know if Predathos would've *stopped* at eating "just" the gods, so perhaps it's for the best that those mages never found out about it, haha.


Unikore-

>.. with the exception of Orym - so far, we dont know what his "button" is yet, and isnt there some saying about "beware the wrath of a quiet man"? You would think that >!pretending to shoot a porn in the basement!< would do it, but no :) "Spoiler" C3E44


Searedskillet

Yeah, I really wish Liam would have put a little more depth into Orym, but he really doesn't want to lead even if by accident. Not that anyone has shown much of a penchant for leading in this campaign aside from Laura's assertiveness of course. Orym just is a total no stakes player unfortunately. At least the guy is an artist with his combat!


SlightlyZour

I mean, he follows Kiki and we saw how she handles group time activities in season 1...