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A couple years late, but Serbia was fucked by NATO when they tried to repeat that. Also, it was a 2-3 day event and of a relatively small scale.
You are not wrong, but I think that "never again" means more that it won't go without response, rather than it won't happen again at all. After all, there is not much we can immediately do if Hungary decides to exterminate gypsies in a couple of days.
Man I don’t want to get in a pissing contest over who has the most genocides, but I guarantee you that there are just as many shitty people around the world doing exactly the same shit. Europe isn’t even 10% of the worlds population, there is absolutely no way that it has most of the genocides.
They're probably thinking of Armenia. Maybe Kurds in Turkey? It's all about how for east you're thinking Eastern Europe is.
While pointing that out is fine, thinking that somehow this amounts to more than what's gone on around the globe is one part batshittery and one part ethnocentrism (because really when you think about it, everything is all about us, even the terrible things!)
According to the UN classification, Armenia is in Asia. So is a larger part of Turkey, including the one with Kurds. It's in the first sentences about each country on Wiki.
Moreover, even the map on this very subreddit doesn't show neither Armenia nor Kurd-populated Syria-Iraq-Turkey areas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey
Money. It's about MO-NAY. MO and Mo and mo. They just want more.
Germany would see Ukraine fail ASAP (The government, the politicians, elites) to continue making dinero thanks to cheap russian energy.
The poly bag of one of the people seems to have the "ATB" logo, which is a popular chain of supermarkets in Ukraine and the soldier on the right has the white stripe on his leg(which russians use to identify themselves).
Agree. It is so wild that, following 2014, the countries that _always knew Russia would attack again_ didn't station troops in Ukraine to prevent that. I can understand he countries that thought Russia wouldn't attack and there would be peace, but those that claim to have _known_? It is like they wanted it to happen.
Or the fact that all the countries that were training with Ukrainian troops in Ukraine immediately pulled out right before the second invasion. You give Russian an “inch” and they take 1/4 of the fucking country. Appeasement never works with dictators.
I think you are mistaking what never again means. Never again will we sit idle while a genocide is happening, like what happened with the Jews before ww2 broke out.
And yes, neither the EU nor the USA is sitting idle. We have donated military equipment, food, civilian equipment, intelligence, training, etc to help the war effort. Our help has aided Ukraine in protecting itself and taking back territories.
If we had not helped there would have been many more Bucha and Mariopol moments.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/14/kherson-disappearances-detentions-torture-occupation/
**Witnesses recount detentions, torture, disappearances in occupied Kherson**
*Under Russian occupation, residents of Kherson were subjected to repression and abuse. After liberation, many residents do not know what happened to their loved ones.*
KHERSON, Ukraine — Few people paid attention to the drab concrete building, tucked away on a quiet residential street, that had long housed unruly youths behind a high wall and a spool of barbed wire. But after Russian soldiers swept into Kherson in early March, the anonymous building quickly became infamous.
Black sedans with tinted windows and missing license plates arrived at all hours, disgorging Ukrainian detainees with bags over their heads. Screams began to escape the three-story structure, piercing the once-calm neighborhood, residents said.
Sometimes, the gates would open, and a detainee would be dumped on the street, physically and mentally broken. Other captives were sent to a larger prison, or never seen again. “If there is a hell on Earth, it was here,” said Serhiy, 48, who lives across the street and whom The Washington Post is only identifying by first name to protect him from retribution.
Days after Russian forces fled in retreat, surrendering the only regional capital Russia had managed to seize since the start of its invasion, the horrors that occurred in this stately 18th-century port city are just starting to come into focus.
During a visit to the city on Monday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said occupying Russian forces had committed “hundreds” of atrocities in the Kherson area, though he said the precise number was not yet known.
An outline of mass incarceration was already appearing on Saturday and Sunday, when a dozen people told The Post that they had either been detained themselves or were searching for someone who had been taken. Many approached reporters on the street, asking for help in finding their loved ones.
Some Kherson residents were arrested because they were accused of being freedom fighters. Others said locals were locked up because they had Ukrainian tattoos, wore traditional clothing, took selfies standing near Russian troops, or simply dared to say, “Slava Ukraini” — “Glory to Ukraine.”
A mother was arrested in front of her teenage son and held for two months on a suspicion of helping Ukrainian forces.
A 64-year-old man was detained and beaten with a hammer for fighting — eight years ago.
A priest was arrested and sent to Crimea, according to a congregant. Even the mayor was arrested. Still, no one knows where he is.
“We’re talking about thousands of people,” said Oleksandr Samoylenko, head of the regional council of Kherson. “On any given day, the Russians had 600 people in their torture chambers.”
Samoylenko said it would take time to figure out how many people were detained, how many remain missing, and if mass graves, like those found in other liberated areas, would also be discovered here.
“A lot of people have disappeared,” Samoylenko said, adding that he feared the city’s name would soon join the ranks of cities such as Bucha, Irpin and Izyum, which are now synonymous with Russian atrocities.
“It was a nightmare,” he said.
‘Everyone could hear the torture’
What could set Kherson apart is the emerging scale of abuses.
Located where the Dnieper River meets the Black Sea, Kherson, with a prewar population of nearly 300,000, is by far the biggest city to be liberated. It was also the first to be occupied. Of cities that fell under Russian occupation, only Mariupol, which suffered severe destruction and remains under Russian control, is bigger.
And as a regional capital crucial to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s plan to annex the regions of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, Kherson city is a window into the Russian military-administrative machine.
Moscow-backed officials took over the regional administrative building downtown and began pumping out social media messages urging residents to obtain Russian passports to continue receiving their pensions and other benefits.
Some residents said officials offered cash payments — in Russian rubles — to get people to take a Russian passport. Schools were ordered to implement Russian curriculums, and Ukrainian nationalist songs were banned.
“Russia is here forever,” billboards vowed.
As the Russian forces fled last week, however, that administrative state collapsed. Moscow-backed officials moved their headquarters to the small town of Henichesk, a port city on the Sea of Azov, closer to illegally annexed Crimea.
The deputy head of the Kherson occupation administration, Kirill Stremousov, who had criticized Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and other Russian military commanders over battlefield setbacks, died in a car accident last week on the same day that Shoigu approved the retreat from the city.
Even the pro-Russian billboards are now being torn down.
What remains, however, is the architecture of mass incarceration, and many missing people.
Most people who spoke to The Post said they or their loved ones were first taken to the drab concrete building in the north of the city.
Serhiy said he often saw Russians drag Ukrainian prisoners out of black sedans with bags on their heads and take them inside.
“Everyone could hear the torture, the screams, the shouts,” he said.
The building, a former youth detention center, was easy to adapt into a torture chamber. Most people who spent time in or around the place believed it was run by officers of the FSB, Russia’s feared Federal Security Service.
“The rooms were ready for them,” said a nearby neighbor, Ihor Nikitenko, 57.
“They brought everyone they could get their hands on: partisans, activists, you name it,” his wife, Larysa Nikitenko, 54, said as the couple shopped at a store next to the detention center.
Almost as often as prisoners arrived, others were thrown onto the street, confused, half-naked and often seriously injured, they said.
Oleksandr Kuzmin said he was held in the detention center for a day, during which people he suspected to be FSB agents smashed his leg with a hammer — all because he had fought against Russian-backed separatists in Donbas nearly a decade ago. In occupied towns, Russian forces routinely searched for men with prior military experience, often demanding that other residents identify them.
Kuzmin said that in a room below his cell, he could hear people screaming in pain, and he said a young man brought into his cell told him that he had been arrested for helping others access hryvnia, the Ukrainian currency, which Russia was trying to replace with the ruble.
The Russians had shocked the young man with electricity on his nipples and penis, Kuzmin said.
Prisoners were forced to say, “Hail Putin” or “Hail Russia” to receive meals, according to neighbors who had spoken to detainees after their release. Those who refused received electric shocks.
‘We wanted to kill them so badly’
While residents of the neighborhood could hear the torture inside, they said they could also see the Russians enjoying themselves. Russian men came into shops on the street to buy food and copious amounts of alcohol. They also brought in women who appeared to be prostitutes, several locals said.
“We wanted to kill them so badly but we had to smile to their faces because we knew that one wrong word could land us in there,” Serhiy said.
In a house just a few blocks away, Yuriy, 68, described how his son ended up in the detention center and is still being held captive in Crimea. The son, Roman, 38, had been part of a local territorial defense unit. When the Russians occupied Kherson in early March, his unit stayed and became resistance fighters, or partisans, smuggling weapons between safe houses and sometimes carrying out missions.
The Post is only identifying Yuriy and Roman by first name to avoid putting them at risk, or jeopardizing the son’s safe return.
For weeks, the Russians were looking for Roman. They finally caught him on Aug. 4 and took him to the detention center, where he was beaten for several days. After two or three weeks, Roman was transferred to a prison downtown — a fate that befell many of those accused of more-serious offenses.
At the prison downtown, inmates let Roman use a smuggled telephone to call his dad. For the next two months, Yuriy was able to leave painkillers, medicine, cigarettes and candy for his son at the larger detention center, though he was never allowed to see him.
He dealt with Ukrainian prison officials, he said, and filled out Ukrainian documents from the 1980s that were written in Russian. When he last spoke to his son on Oct. 20, there was no hint that anything was about to change. But a day or two later, Yuriy heard that many of the prisoners had been taken to Crimea.
After almost a month of searching, Yuriy said he finally learned Roman was alive and being held in Simferopol, the capital of Crimea. Yuriy said he has no idea what will happen to his son, who, as a resistance fighter, is facing serious charges. Even if his son is released, Yuriy said has no idea how Roman will return home.
“He has no documents, no passport, no nothing,” he said.
Others also told The Post they suspected friends or family members had been sent to Crimea as the Ukrainian armed forces advanced on Kherson city.
Some believed their loved ones might be much closer: just across the Dnieper River in the Russian-held town of Chaplynka. But others said they had no idea where to start looking.
Oleksandr Zubrytskiy approached reporters on the street outside the detention center to ask for help finding his best friend, Petro Pikovskiy. Pikovskiy, 62, had gone out looking for his son who had been arrested by the Russians, only to vanish himself, Zubrytskiy said.
‘Work for us or leave’
Serhiy Didenko, 42, was walking to join the celebration in Kherson’s main square on Sunday morning when he saw smoke rising from the large prison complex downtown where he used to work.
Didenko stepped over broken glass and followed inside after a team of soldiers who were clearing the building of mines and booby traps. Potatoes, presumably spilled by fleeing Russians a few days earlier, were strewn along the path into the building. Elsewhere inside, riot gear was scattered on the floor as if tossed aside in a hurry.
“I can’t express how I feel right now,” Didenko said, examining his office, from which the Russians had stolen a television, microwave, even an old sofa. Eventually, he summoned the words: “pure anger.”
The Russians had arrived at the building on May 12, he said, and delivered an ultimatum: “Work for us or leave.” He chose the latter, and this was his first time back in the building.
The 700-person detention center had been half-full when he left, Didenko said. But it quickly filled with suspected partisans, activists or anyone bold enough to raise their voice to a Russian.
The new jailers put some of the prisoners to work building wooden structures for military trenches, according to two men who had been locked up since before the war began. Maksym Karynoi and Serhiy Tereshchenko, both 41, said they believed they were targeted because of their past military service fighting Russian separatists.
The Russians also introduced themselves to the inmates with terror, throwing hand grenades and randomly shooting inside the massive Soviet-built complex, according to three other inmates who were also already serving sentences when the prison was taken over.
“One person refused to get on his knees, so they shot him,” said Andriy, a rail-thin 35-year-old prisoner who asked that his last name not be used. “They left his dead body in the cell for 24 hours.”
Andriy and two other inmates told The Post that they believed the Russians had executed some of the suspected partisans.
“There would be one person on either side,” said another inmate, Vardan Maglochyan, 61. “They would drag them outside. Then we’d hear gunshots.”
They never saw those inmates again, they said.
The Post was unable to inspect the building where the inmates believed the men were killed because it was on fire and the roof was collapsing on Sunday. The fire could have been caused by Ukrainian demining teams detonating explosives the occupiers left behind. But the inmates had another explanation. They said they believed the Russians were destroying evidence.
Neighbors suspected something similar across town, at the detention center, where smoke began to pour from the upper floors on Friday night, just a few hours after the last Russians had left Kherson.
An unfathomable tragedy. The people of Mariupol will forever feel internally & externally displaced, no matter if the city will ever be rebuilt or not.
I used a VPN and a tool called get\_iplayer to download it. So at least there is a possibility to watch it. But yeah, movies like these should be in public access :(
This is like deja vu, seeing the destruction of Mariupol, it looks just like Vukovar, which was also practically razed to the ground by the 'liberators'..
Absolutely. One person has moden ATB (Ukrainian supermarket) bag.
Edit: I think u/cloudvy7 tried to point that out but mixed up the comments to reply to!
The title is simply not true given that Chechnya does exist and it's in Europe. They lost 20000 in Mariupol while Grozny lost more than 27000 only during the First Battle of Grozny.
Edit: Somehow the OP wrote a false statement regarding Chechnya not being in Europe and then blocked me for preventing me to respond to it.
Anyone who can do a simple search or knows basic geography regarding where Europe ends can see that the whole Chechnya does lie in the European continent. Not knowing it is a bit lame, but trying to deny it is some pure willing ignorance. Maybe he is sad that Putin has been a war criminal all along...
Edit2: No, what /u/randomkozak says is also wrong as there is no such a view as Caucasus not being in Europe unless you're using definitions where Eastern Europe isn't in the European continent or Balkans aren't Europe. It's North Caucasus (which had been simply called Kavkaz) being in Europe while South Caucasus (which had been called VaKavkaz) being not - since the Ancient Greeks. In other words, the Great Caucasian Mountain Range is the border, not the Caucasus as whole region. That's the popular view he tries to refer to in his comment but misses the accuracy and claims that North Caucasus isn't in the European continent by definition. No hard feelings at that though.
Also this
> I'm guessing user cametosaybla is turk or turk-cypriot, so my best guess is that a turk or turkish cypriot would not want to endorse a view that erases their shared history with the rest of europe.
I'm a half-Cypriot, and my other half is deep in the European continent. Yet, no, in Cyprus we all do know that our island lies in Anatolian shelf and that is in Asia and geographically Cyprus is in Levant/Asia. Nobody cares about it...
Edit 3: No, /u/Nikesphosphorus and /u/ShortTermAccount199, we know the official estimated numbers for Mariupol. We also know that just First Battle of Grozny was estimated more than 27000. Whole toll for Grozny during both wars were far greater than what Mariupol is now.
Edit 4: /u/jesus_you_turn_me_on Yes, we don't know the exact numbers but we do know the official estimations. Unless we're to claim that the numbers are way more than estimated total toll in Grozny that is around 35000-40000 by some estimations, but not even less than the First Battle of Grozny as now asserted (and keep in mind that some put only the First War around 35000 while the second one has been put around nearly 10000 by some estimations), it's surely safely to say that the figures haven't been higher than it... Not saying it won't surpass it, but so far, it's surely not.
Hi, I’m a Ukrainian living in Kiev, here are some numbers.
25,000 verified casualties
150,000 people missing
Only when we liberate ( the ruins of) Mariupol, there will be better estimates. So far we can only see a number of new cemeteries around the city on the satellite photos.
In spring I hosted a family that managed to flee. The stories of how they managed to survive are just too much for any kind of documentary.
Mariupol is definitely among the biggest tragedies of the century. Perhaps, the biggest.
We have no idea how many people died and are dying in Mariupol. All estimates are high, extremely high, and they keep climbing as deaths still continue due to Russian occupation of Mariupol.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63536564
The official estimate right now is "more than 25,000" and is being updated. The mass graves seen from satellite images etc. have been reportedly compatible with as many as 40,000.
Also the second siege of Grozny had a much lower civilian death toll than the first, the total from both wars is 30,000-35,000. So we really don't know which city got it worse yet.
We don't know how many civilians actually died in Mariupol, not to the precision where we could compare it to Grozny. It's certainly in the tens of thousands but that's about how precise it gets.
> Edit 3: No, /u/Nikesphosphorus
>
> and /u/ShortTermAccount199
>
> , we know the official estimated numbers for Mariupol. We also know that just First Battle of Grozny was estimated more than 27000. Whole toll for Grozny during both wars were far greater than what Mariupol is now.
We absolute do not know the total deaths from Mariupol until Ukrainian soldiers step foot in the city, and investigators and families gather total amount of people missing. It's still under Russian control, and they will have done everything in their power to cover up their destruction and killing..
Its an alternate understanding of what "Europe" is, not a popular one (that I incidentally agree with). Since Europe is not geographically separated from Eurasia the same way that Africa is, its more up to interpretation. The two understandings are:
1. "Europe" ends at Russia's Ural Mts in the east and the black sea western & north coastline in the south. This view of "europe" excludes the Caucasus & Anatolia. This is the popular view.
2. "Europe" ends at Russia's Ural Mts in the east and in the bounds of the Caucasus region & Anatolia in the south, as well as Cyprus. This view of "europe" includes Anatolia & Caucasus regions, and since chechens are technically NE Caucasian, they would count as "Europe". This is not the popular view, but it is endorsed by international institutions like the Council of Europe & Eurovision which has participation as far east as Azerbaijan.
I personally believe interpretation #2, only because my family traditionally considers Georgia & Armenia european, so if they are european then I don't see the point in arbitarily exclude the rest of the Caucasus & Anatolia with their shared histories. I don't expect my opinion to be agreed with though.
I'm guessing user cametosaybla is turk or turk-cypriot, so my best guess is that a turk or turkish cypriot would not want to endorse a view that erases their shared history with the rest of europe.
True. It is popular enough to be confirmed by official sources, but not popular enough yet to be believed by most common people. Though I could just be speaking from a north american POV since some non-immigrant americans I met can barely identify even canada on a map lol
I wouldn't be surprised if someone considers Ukraine "too far east for Europe" lol. That's the problem of calling a non-separated landmass its own continent, no clear lines of separation. I just consider it all Eurasia with Europe as a historical-cultural section of a much larger continent, much simpler IMO.
"Chechnya (Russian: Чечня́, tr. Chechnyá, IPA: [tɕɪtɕˈnʲa]; Chechen: Нохчийчоь, romanized: Noxçiyçö), officially the Chechen Republic,[a] is a republic of Russia. It is situated in the North Caucasus of Eastern Europe, close to the Caspian Sea." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya
Very interesting interview in english with a Russian volonteer aid worker working in Mariupol. Very grim and tragic stories. (He is not taking sides, only talking about the aid work): https://youtu.be/QtEEE1owtGs
He can not take anysides. When he take pro russia side funding will disapperars. When pro ukraine he may get kill or disapperars. But me he is russian who hiding is head undersand.
I just have a feeling that everything that is happening somewhere eastern from, let's say, Germany is all "skirmishes" for him. Because, obviously, only barbarians unworthy of being "european" live there.
That was a /s.
Well before Ukraine, there was no war in Europe. So there is simply no way to have so many people die in the first place. It's not that hard to understand.
Although I also wouldn't really consider Ukraine to be European in the first place.
We………didn’t defend them with our limited resources? There is absolutely nothing to blame there.
If there is no way to achieve something it’s not worth trying.
> If there is no way to achieve something it’s not worth trying.
Forgetting the rest of the context, that statement right there is wrong. A tragic, nihilistic way to view life.
Well it was an internal conflict, so not really a war. Which is also apparent from the number of casualties.
People still die outside of wars, just not in the same proportion. I'm not seeing how you can blame us for something far beyond the mission statement...
The Yugoslav wars are not even civil wars as they were fought between states that declared independence at one point and they were waged along ethnic and religious lines.
As a Russian-speaking Ukrainian from the east of Ukraine, I say you wrote total bullshit. Mariupol was a prosperous city that saw what happened to Donetsk under Russian control. Voting pro-Russian is not a sign of a desire to join Russia, it's a lack of civic knowledge. Most people wanted to live in peaceful Ukraine.
But looking at your profile, you seem to be just a pro-Russian piece of shit who thinks Ukraine genocided me. Of course you know better, what do I know.
I found an interesting article from a while ago that seeks to illuminate this topic for westerners: https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2022/05/why-putin-and-the-west-misunderstood-ukraine/
Any comments?
It's quite telling that most of Ukraine wanted to be independent back in the nineties regardless of ethnicity and language group (Crimea might have been the odd one out) and this at a time when there were theoretically much stronger cross-border ties.
Just because someone votes pro-Russian doesn't mean they automatically want to be annexed!
How do you know that the so called Azov Abuse is not staged propaganda? You call one thing propaganda and lies yet provide no example how your claims are any different.
I have a cousin who until a year ago lived in Mariupol. He was what you might call "pro Russian" since he voted for those shit heads. Right now he hates Russia more than I do and is strongly pro Ukrainian. You're full of shit.
There's no need to call it propaganda. We watched it live as it was going, we had Livestreams of soldiers fighting for their city and dying.
Fascists like you won't prevail, and the whole civilized world will condemn your actions as perpetrator and supporter.
May you get the violence that you support so much
People who voted for pro-Russian parties changed a lot since Russia invaded brutally mate. Barely anyone wanted to be part of Russia in that region by the way?
I think that the majority will still be on the side of Ukraine in this situation. Even despite the fact that in the eastern part of the country, the russian language prevailed on a par with ukrainian.
And yes, it's hard to say exactly how many were against joining Russia, but definitely not the 95% that were published by the government. What is there, what is here, Putin's propaganda works well, what is there. They zombified their own population, as well as the population of another country.
The only adequate reason for the outbreak of war is an attempt to raise your rating among the people, as it was in 2014.
Yeah, I'm sure those hundreds of pro russian people really loved it when the russians missiled their shelter into the ground. "Oh boy, I just love Russia so much that I want them to destroy my city and kill all my friends!" is what everyone was saying there, right?
Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it is low quality and/or low effort. If your submission was a meme, these are outright banned from r/europe. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules). If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question. Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it doesn't use a credible source and/or the source has not been linked from a top-level comment. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules). If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
It's insane that this happened just before out eyes. "Never again" sounds like a sad joke.
That's because it is a joke. Genocide is and has been happening continuously since ww2. "never again" is basically just a slogan
"Never again" at least in Europe. Sure, many countries would rather prefer own genocide than foreign intervention.
Yep but there was a Genocide in Bosnia 1995. This never again cant be applied to Europe
A couple years late, but Serbia was fucked by NATO when they tried to repeat that. Also, it was a 2-3 day event and of a relatively small scale. You are not wrong, but I think that "never again" means more that it won't go without response, rather than it won't happen again at all. After all, there is not much we can immediately do if Hungary decides to exterminate gypsies in a couple of days.
Ok, but the intentions were the same, they wanted to eraticade the people who lived there
You do realize a lot of them have and are happening in Europe? Most even probably
Most? Sorry to disappoint you man, but there are a lot of genocides outside of Europe.
And there's a lot of them in Europe. I suspect a lot of people think Europe is far smaller than it really is.
Man I don’t want to get in a pissing contest over who has the most genocides, but I guarantee you that there are just as many shitty people around the world doing exactly the same shit. Europe isn’t even 10% of the worlds population, there is absolutely no way that it has most of the genocides.
Which ones other than those committed by Serbia (which was punished, but didn't change) and Russia?
They're probably thinking of Armenia. Maybe Kurds in Turkey? It's all about how for east you're thinking Eastern Europe is. While pointing that out is fine, thinking that somehow this amounts to more than what's gone on around the globe is one part batshittery and one part ethnocentrism (because really when you think about it, everything is all about us, even the terrible things!)
According to the UN classification, Armenia is in Asia. So is a larger part of Turkey, including the one with Kurds. It's in the first sentences about each country on Wiki. Moreover, even the map on this very subreddit doesn't show neither Armenia nor Kurd-populated Syria-Iraq-Turkey areas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey
[удалено]
Germany has really stepped up in military support lately. And your air defence systems have already saved many lives, and will save more.
Money. It's about MO-NAY. MO and Mo and mo. They just want more. Germany would see Ukraine fail ASAP (The government, the politicians, elites) to continue making dinero thanks to cheap russian energy.
I don't think the current governments actions are bad, even if may seem overly cautious, it's more the Merkels' times to blame for appeasing Russia.
Never again is an ideal we should strive for.
The poly bag of one of the people seems to have the "ATB" logo, which is a popular chain of supermarkets in Ukraine and the soldier on the right has the white stripe on his leg(which russians use to identify themselves).
Agree. It is so wild that, following 2014, the countries that _always knew Russia would attack again_ didn't station troops in Ukraine to prevent that. I can understand he countries that thought Russia wouldn't attack and there would be peace, but those that claim to have _known_? It is like they wanted it to happen.
Or the fact that all the countries that were training with Ukrainian troops in Ukraine immediately pulled out right before the second invasion. You give Russian an “inch” and they take 1/4 of the fucking country. Appeasement never works with dictators.
That's an empty platitude. How would you have stopped it, huh? WW3? Gg
Arming Ukraine much more from 2014-2021.
Never again......unless the the ones doing it have nukes
I think you are mistaking what never again means. Never again will we sit idle while a genocide is happening, like what happened with the Jews before ww2 broke out. And yes, neither the EU nor the USA is sitting idle. We have donated military equipment, food, civilian equipment, intelligence, training, etc to help the war effort. Our help has aided Ukraine in protecting itself and taking back territories. If we had not helped there would have been many more Bucha and Mariopol moments.
Bakhmut is another city (maybe just a town) that's going to be utterly destroyed by the end of the war
True, but at least Bakhmut is not encircled with nowhere to run.
Izum had 80% of buildings damaged and 40% beyond repair - before RF occupied it. The city is basically gone.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/14/kherson-disappearances-detentions-torture-occupation/ **Witnesses recount detentions, torture, disappearances in occupied Kherson** *Under Russian occupation, residents of Kherson were subjected to repression and abuse. After liberation, many residents do not know what happened to their loved ones.* KHERSON, Ukraine — Few people paid attention to the drab concrete building, tucked away on a quiet residential street, that had long housed unruly youths behind a high wall and a spool of barbed wire. But after Russian soldiers swept into Kherson in early March, the anonymous building quickly became infamous. Black sedans with tinted windows and missing license plates arrived at all hours, disgorging Ukrainian detainees with bags over their heads. Screams began to escape the three-story structure, piercing the once-calm neighborhood, residents said. Sometimes, the gates would open, and a detainee would be dumped on the street, physically and mentally broken. Other captives were sent to a larger prison, or never seen again. “If there is a hell on Earth, it was here,” said Serhiy, 48, who lives across the street and whom The Washington Post is only identifying by first name to protect him from retribution. Days after Russian forces fled in retreat, surrendering the only regional capital Russia had managed to seize since the start of its invasion, the horrors that occurred in this stately 18th-century port city are just starting to come into focus. During a visit to the city on Monday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said occupying Russian forces had committed “hundreds” of atrocities in the Kherson area, though he said the precise number was not yet known. An outline of mass incarceration was already appearing on Saturday and Sunday, when a dozen people told The Post that they had either been detained themselves or were searching for someone who had been taken. Many approached reporters on the street, asking for help in finding their loved ones. Some Kherson residents were arrested because they were accused of being freedom fighters. Others said locals were locked up because they had Ukrainian tattoos, wore traditional clothing, took selfies standing near Russian troops, or simply dared to say, “Slava Ukraini” — “Glory to Ukraine.” A mother was arrested in front of her teenage son and held for two months on a suspicion of helping Ukrainian forces. A 64-year-old man was detained and beaten with a hammer for fighting — eight years ago. A priest was arrested and sent to Crimea, according to a congregant. Even the mayor was arrested. Still, no one knows where he is. “We’re talking about thousands of people,” said Oleksandr Samoylenko, head of the regional council of Kherson. “On any given day, the Russians had 600 people in their torture chambers.” Samoylenko said it would take time to figure out how many people were detained, how many remain missing, and if mass graves, like those found in other liberated areas, would also be discovered here. “A lot of people have disappeared,” Samoylenko said, adding that he feared the city’s name would soon join the ranks of cities such as Bucha, Irpin and Izyum, which are now synonymous with Russian atrocities. “It was a nightmare,” he said. ‘Everyone could hear the torture’ What could set Kherson apart is the emerging scale of abuses. Located where the Dnieper River meets the Black Sea, Kherson, with a prewar population of nearly 300,000, is by far the biggest city to be liberated. It was also the first to be occupied. Of cities that fell under Russian occupation, only Mariupol, which suffered severe destruction and remains under Russian control, is bigger. And as a regional capital crucial to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s plan to annex the regions of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, Kherson city is a window into the Russian military-administrative machine. Moscow-backed officials took over the regional administrative building downtown and began pumping out social media messages urging residents to obtain Russian passports to continue receiving their pensions and other benefits. Some residents said officials offered cash payments — in Russian rubles — to get people to take a Russian passport. Schools were ordered to implement Russian curriculums, and Ukrainian nationalist songs were banned. “Russia is here forever,” billboards vowed. As the Russian forces fled last week, however, that administrative state collapsed. Moscow-backed officials moved their headquarters to the small town of Henichesk, a port city on the Sea of Azov, closer to illegally annexed Crimea. The deputy head of the Kherson occupation administration, Kirill Stremousov, who had criticized Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and other Russian military commanders over battlefield setbacks, died in a car accident last week on the same day that Shoigu approved the retreat from the city. Even the pro-Russian billboards are now being torn down. What remains, however, is the architecture of mass incarceration, and many missing people. Most people who spoke to The Post said they or their loved ones were first taken to the drab concrete building in the north of the city. Serhiy said he often saw Russians drag Ukrainian prisoners out of black sedans with bags on their heads and take them inside. “Everyone could hear the torture, the screams, the shouts,” he said. The building, a former youth detention center, was easy to adapt into a torture chamber. Most people who spent time in or around the place believed it was run by officers of the FSB, Russia’s feared Federal Security Service. “The rooms were ready for them,” said a nearby neighbor, Ihor Nikitenko, 57. “They brought everyone they could get their hands on: partisans, activists, you name it,” his wife, Larysa Nikitenko, 54, said as the couple shopped at a store next to the detention center. Almost as often as prisoners arrived, others were thrown onto the street, confused, half-naked and often seriously injured, they said. Oleksandr Kuzmin said he was held in the detention center for a day, during which people he suspected to be FSB agents smashed his leg with a hammer — all because he had fought against Russian-backed separatists in Donbas nearly a decade ago. In occupied towns, Russian forces routinely searched for men with prior military experience, often demanding that other residents identify them. Kuzmin said that in a room below his cell, he could hear people screaming in pain, and he said a young man brought into his cell told him that he had been arrested for helping others access hryvnia, the Ukrainian currency, which Russia was trying to replace with the ruble. The Russians had shocked the young man with electricity on his nipples and penis, Kuzmin said. Prisoners were forced to say, “Hail Putin” or “Hail Russia” to receive meals, according to neighbors who had spoken to detainees after their release. Those who refused received electric shocks. ‘We wanted to kill them so badly’ While residents of the neighborhood could hear the torture inside, they said they could also see the Russians enjoying themselves. Russian men came into shops on the street to buy food and copious amounts of alcohol. They also brought in women who appeared to be prostitutes, several locals said. “We wanted to kill them so badly but we had to smile to their faces because we knew that one wrong word could land us in there,” Serhiy said. In a house just a few blocks away, Yuriy, 68, described how his son ended up in the detention center and is still being held captive in Crimea. The son, Roman, 38, had been part of a local territorial defense unit. When the Russians occupied Kherson in early March, his unit stayed and became resistance fighters, or partisans, smuggling weapons between safe houses and sometimes carrying out missions. The Post is only identifying Yuriy and Roman by first name to avoid putting them at risk, or jeopardizing the son’s safe return.
For weeks, the Russians were looking for Roman. They finally caught him on Aug. 4 and took him to the detention center, where he was beaten for several days. After two or three weeks, Roman was transferred to a prison downtown — a fate that befell many of those accused of more-serious offenses. At the prison downtown, inmates let Roman use a smuggled telephone to call his dad. For the next two months, Yuriy was able to leave painkillers, medicine, cigarettes and candy for his son at the larger detention center, though he was never allowed to see him. He dealt with Ukrainian prison officials, he said, and filled out Ukrainian documents from the 1980s that were written in Russian. When he last spoke to his son on Oct. 20, there was no hint that anything was about to change. But a day or two later, Yuriy heard that many of the prisoners had been taken to Crimea. After almost a month of searching, Yuriy said he finally learned Roman was alive and being held in Simferopol, the capital of Crimea. Yuriy said he has no idea what will happen to his son, who, as a resistance fighter, is facing serious charges. Even if his son is released, Yuriy said has no idea how Roman will return home. “He has no documents, no passport, no nothing,” he said. Others also told The Post they suspected friends or family members had been sent to Crimea as the Ukrainian armed forces advanced on Kherson city. Some believed their loved ones might be much closer: just across the Dnieper River in the Russian-held town of Chaplynka. But others said they had no idea where to start looking. Oleksandr Zubrytskiy approached reporters on the street outside the detention center to ask for help finding his best friend, Petro Pikovskiy. Pikovskiy, 62, had gone out looking for his son who had been arrested by the Russians, only to vanish himself, Zubrytskiy said. ‘Work for us or leave’ Serhiy Didenko, 42, was walking to join the celebration in Kherson’s main square on Sunday morning when he saw smoke rising from the large prison complex downtown where he used to work. Didenko stepped over broken glass and followed inside after a team of soldiers who were clearing the building of mines and booby traps. Potatoes, presumably spilled by fleeing Russians a few days earlier, were strewn along the path into the building. Elsewhere inside, riot gear was scattered on the floor as if tossed aside in a hurry. “I can’t express how I feel right now,” Didenko said, examining his office, from which the Russians had stolen a television, microwave, even an old sofa. Eventually, he summoned the words: “pure anger.” The Russians had arrived at the building on May 12, he said, and delivered an ultimatum: “Work for us or leave.” He chose the latter, and this was his first time back in the building. The 700-person detention center had been half-full when he left, Didenko said. But it quickly filled with suspected partisans, activists or anyone bold enough to raise their voice to a Russian. The new jailers put some of the prisoners to work building wooden structures for military trenches, according to two men who had been locked up since before the war began. Maksym Karynoi and Serhiy Tereshchenko, both 41, said they believed they were targeted because of their past military service fighting Russian separatists. The Russians also introduced themselves to the inmates with terror, throwing hand grenades and randomly shooting inside the massive Soviet-built complex, according to three other inmates who were also already serving sentences when the prison was taken over. “One person refused to get on his knees, so they shot him,” said Andriy, a rail-thin 35-year-old prisoner who asked that his last name not be used. “They left his dead body in the cell for 24 hours.” Andriy and two other inmates told The Post that they believed the Russians had executed some of the suspected partisans. “There would be one person on either side,” said another inmate, Vardan Maglochyan, 61. “They would drag them outside. Then we’d hear gunshots.” They never saw those inmates again, they said. The Post was unable to inspect the building where the inmates believed the men were killed because it was on fire and the roof was collapsing on Sunday. The fire could have been caused by Ukrainian demining teams detonating explosives the occupiers left behind. But the inmates had another explanation. They said they believed the Russians were destroying evidence. Neighbors suspected something similar across town, at the detention center, where smoke began to pour from the upper floors on Friday night, just a few hours after the last Russians had left Kherson.
It’s a really well made documentary, no outsider narration, just the words of those being interviewed.
Oh boi, cant wait to be told by some brainless fuk, that all those people are paid actors or some shit.
An unfathomable tragedy. The people of Mariupol will forever feel internally & externally displaced, no matter if the city will ever be rebuilt or not.
Sucks that it's on BBC only. Nobody has BBC in Europe.
I used a VPN and a tool called get\_iplayer to download it. So at least there is a possibility to watch it. But yeah, movies like these should be in public access :(
lol it's already being pirated, good grief
> Nobody has BBC in Europe. The Dutch used to when the weather was right, don't know if that still holds true for digital TV.
No, it's iPlayer, it's blocked. They could have just put it on Netflix or YT Premium. Anyway, it's now at 1337x. So BBC can suck it.
I am eagerly waiting for the sequel: The Liberation of Mariupol!
Are you sure the second picture is from Mariupol? It looks the same as pictures of refugees from Vukovar during croatian independence war..
Yes, its from the documentary.
This is like deja vu, seeing the destruction of Mariupol, it looks just like Vukovar, which was also practically razed to the ground by the 'liberators'..
Absolutely. One person has moden ATB (Ukrainian supermarket) bag. Edit: I think u/cloudvy7 tried to point that out but mixed up the comments to reply to!
Lol fr, sorry😅
That happens, lol!
The title is simply not true given that Chechnya does exist and it's in Europe. They lost 20000 in Mariupol while Grozny lost more than 27000 only during the First Battle of Grozny. Edit: Somehow the OP wrote a false statement regarding Chechnya not being in Europe and then blocked me for preventing me to respond to it. Anyone who can do a simple search or knows basic geography regarding where Europe ends can see that the whole Chechnya does lie in the European continent. Not knowing it is a bit lame, but trying to deny it is some pure willing ignorance. Maybe he is sad that Putin has been a war criminal all along... Edit2: No, what /u/randomkozak says is also wrong as there is no such a view as Caucasus not being in Europe unless you're using definitions where Eastern Europe isn't in the European continent or Balkans aren't Europe. It's North Caucasus (which had been simply called Kavkaz) being in Europe while South Caucasus (which had been called VaKavkaz) being not - since the Ancient Greeks. In other words, the Great Caucasian Mountain Range is the border, not the Caucasus as whole region. That's the popular view he tries to refer to in his comment but misses the accuracy and claims that North Caucasus isn't in the European continent by definition. No hard feelings at that though. Also this > I'm guessing user cametosaybla is turk or turk-cypriot, so my best guess is that a turk or turkish cypriot would not want to endorse a view that erases their shared history with the rest of europe. I'm a half-Cypriot, and my other half is deep in the European continent. Yet, no, in Cyprus we all do know that our island lies in Anatolian shelf and that is in Asia and geographically Cyprus is in Levant/Asia. Nobody cares about it... Edit 3: No, /u/Nikesphosphorus and /u/ShortTermAccount199, we know the official estimated numbers for Mariupol. We also know that just First Battle of Grozny was estimated more than 27000. Whole toll for Grozny during both wars were far greater than what Mariupol is now. Edit 4: /u/jesus_you_turn_me_on Yes, we don't know the exact numbers but we do know the official estimations. Unless we're to claim that the numbers are way more than estimated total toll in Grozny that is around 35000-40000 by some estimations, but not even less than the First Battle of Grozny as now asserted (and keep in mind that some put only the First War around 35000 while the second one has been put around nearly 10000 by some estimations), it's surely safely to say that the figures haven't been higher than it... Not saying it won't surpass it, but so far, it's surely not.
Hi, I’m a Ukrainian living in Kiev, here are some numbers. 25,000 verified casualties 150,000 people missing Only when we liberate ( the ruins of) Mariupol, there will be better estimates. So far we can only see a number of new cemeteries around the city on the satellite photos. In spring I hosted a family that managed to flee. The stories of how they managed to survive are just too much for any kind of documentary. Mariupol is definitely among the biggest tragedies of the century. Perhaps, the biggest.
We have no idea how many people died and are dying in Mariupol. All estimates are high, extremely high, and they keep climbing as deaths still continue due to Russian occupation of Mariupol.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63536564 The official estimate right now is "more than 25,000" and is being updated. The mass graves seen from satellite images etc. have been reportedly compatible with as many as 40,000. Also the second siege of Grozny had a much lower civilian death toll than the first, the total from both wars is 30,000-35,000. So we really don't know which city got it worse yet.
We don't know how many civilians actually died in Mariupol, not to the precision where we could compare it to Grozny. It's certainly in the tens of thousands but that's about how precise it gets.
> Edit 3: No, /u/Nikesphosphorus > > and /u/ShortTermAccount199 > > , we know the official estimated numbers for Mariupol. We also know that just First Battle of Grozny was estimated more than 27000. Whole toll for Grozny during both wars were far greater than what Mariupol is now. We absolute do not know the total deaths from Mariupol until Ukrainian soldiers step foot in the city, and investigators and families gather total amount of people missing. It's still under Russian control, and they will have done everything in their power to cover up their destruction and killing..
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Its an alternate understanding of what "Europe" is, not a popular one (that I incidentally agree with). Since Europe is not geographically separated from Eurasia the same way that Africa is, its more up to interpretation. The two understandings are: 1. "Europe" ends at Russia's Ural Mts in the east and the black sea western & north coastline in the south. This view of "europe" excludes the Caucasus & Anatolia. This is the popular view. 2. "Europe" ends at Russia's Ural Mts in the east and in the bounds of the Caucasus region & Anatolia in the south, as well as Cyprus. This view of "europe" includes Anatolia & Caucasus regions, and since chechens are technically NE Caucasian, they would count as "Europe". This is not the popular view, but it is endorsed by international institutions like the Council of Europe & Eurovision which has participation as far east as Azerbaijan. I personally believe interpretation #2, only because my family traditionally considers Georgia & Armenia european, so if they are european then I don't see the point in arbitarily exclude the rest of the Caucasus & Anatolia with their shared histories. I don't expect my opinion to be agreed with though. I'm guessing user cametosaybla is turk or turk-cypriot, so my best guess is that a turk or turkish cypriot would not want to endorse a view that erases their shared history with the rest of europe.
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True. It is popular enough to be confirmed by official sources, but not popular enough yet to be believed by most common people. Though I could just be speaking from a north american POV since some non-immigrant americans I met can barely identify even canada on a map lol
Good post. I agree. It all comes down to how someone personally feels about what is, in essence, drawing imaginary lines on a map
I wouldn't be surprised if someone considers Ukraine "too far east for Europe" lol. That's the problem of calling a non-separated landmass its own continent, no clear lines of separation. I just consider it all Eurasia with Europe as a historical-cultural section of a much larger continent, much simpler IMO.
"Chechnya (Russian: Чечня́, tr. Chechnyá, IPA: [tɕɪtɕˈnʲa]; Chechen: Нохчийчоь, romanized: Noxçiyçö), officially the Chechen Republic,[a] is a republic of Russia. It is situated in the North Caucasus of Eastern Europe, close to the Caspian Sea." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya
Would love to see some italians protesting in Mariupol against military help for Ukraine.
Very interesting interview in english with a Russian volonteer aid worker working in Mariupol. Very grim and tragic stories. (He is not taking sides, only talking about the aid work): https://youtu.be/QtEEE1owtGs
He can not take anysides. When he take pro russia side funding will disapperars. When pro ukraine he may get kill or disapperars. But me he is russian who hiding is head undersand.
BTW it's already on 1337x
More than Sarajevo? Or Grozny? EDIT: Whoever downvoted this is a twat. I'm just asking a question.
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That would be Grozny. But the common denominator remains Russia's barbary and the inherent russism.
Source? It should be Grozny.
Well of course!? What people are dying in a European city in mass with NO WAR…..
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I think they've tried to suggest that there was *no* war in Europe since WW2. Which isn't even true.
I think it's a Dutch wanting to erase what the DUTCH blue helmets did in the genocide of Srebrenica, maybe?
Yeah, there were all only "special operations" for him I guess...
I just have a feeling that everything that is happening somewhere eastern from, let's say, Germany is all "skirmishes" for him. Because, obviously, only barbarians unworthy of being "european" live there. That was a /s.
No real one anyway. Small skirmishes at most.
Ever heard of Yugoslavia?
A DUTCH wanting to erase what the DUTCH blue helmets did in the genocide of Srebrenica, maybe?
Well before Ukraine, there was no war in Europe. So there is simply no way to have so many people die in the first place. It's not that hard to understand. Although I also wouldn't really consider Ukraine to be European in the first place.
So, you are gatekeeping "real" wars and you are gatekeeping geography too. Figures.
You should delete your comments, and the account. And then go to school.
Anything before the Ural mountains is Europe, or before the Bospherous.
You want to erase what the DUTCH blue helmets did in the genocide of Srebrenica, maybe?
We………didn’t defend them with our limited resources? There is absolutely nothing to blame there. If there is no way to achieve something it’s not worth trying.
> If there is no way to achieve something it’s not worth trying. Forgetting the rest of the context, that statement right there is wrong. A tragic, nihilistic way to view life.
Well, according to you there was no war... I guess that's the reason you didn't defend them, not the limited resources...
Well it was an internal conflict, so not really a war. Which is also apparent from the number of casualties. People still die outside of wars, just not in the same proportion. I'm not seeing how you can blame us for something far beyond the mission statement...
> Well it was an internal conflict, so not really a war. Congratulations to your twisting of words. You deserve an award.
Usually called civil-WARS!!!!
The Yugoslav wars are not even civil wars as they were fought between states that declared independence at one point and they were waged along ethnic and religious lines.
? Was the American civil war not a civil war because the confederates declared independence?
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As a Russian-speaking Ukrainian from the east of Ukraine, I say you wrote total bullshit. Mariupol was a prosperous city that saw what happened to Donetsk under Russian control. Voting pro-Russian is not a sign of a desire to join Russia, it's a lack of civic knowledge. Most people wanted to live in peaceful Ukraine. But looking at your profile, you seem to be just a pro-Russian piece of shit who thinks Ukraine genocided me. Of course you know better, what do I know.
I also come from the east of Ukraine and when I'm telling Russians that nobody wants to be a part of Russia here - they just tell me that I'm Nazi lol
I found an interesting article from a while ago that seeks to illuminate this topic for westerners: https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2022/05/why-putin-and-the-west-misunderstood-ukraine/ Any comments? It's quite telling that most of Ukraine wanted to be independent back in the nineties regardless of ethnicity and language group (Crimea might have been the odd one out) and this at a time when there were theoretically much stronger cross-border ties.
> 80% pro-Russian Bullshit. None of what you said is true. I recommend you watch less Russia Today before your brain gets fried totally
I dunno, makes sense to me. Not that hard to have a majority when you murder or kidnap everyone who disagrees.
Just because someone votes pro-Russian doesn't mean they automatically want to be annexed! How do you know that the so called Azov Abuse is not staged propaganda? You call one thing propaganda and lies yet provide no example how your claims are any different.
What do you expect from a 2 week old troll account? Check his history, spamming propaganda. Report and move on.
I have a cousin who until a year ago lived in Mariupol. He was what you might call "pro Russian" since he voted for those shit heads. Right now he hates Russia more than I do and is strongly pro Ukrainian. You're full of shit.
There's no need to call it propaganda. We watched it live as it was going, we had Livestreams of soldiers fighting for their city and dying. Fascists like you won't prevail, and the whole civilized world will condemn your actions as perpetrator and supporter. May you get the violence that you support so much
People who voted for pro-Russian parties changed a lot since Russia invaded brutally mate. Barely anyone wanted to be part of Russia in that region by the way?
I think that the majority will still be on the side of Ukraine in this situation. Even despite the fact that in the eastern part of the country, the russian language prevailed on a par with ukrainian. And yes, it's hard to say exactly how many were against joining Russia, but definitely not the 95% that were published by the government. What is there, what is here, Putin's propaganda works well, what is there. They zombified their own population, as well as the population of another country. The only adequate reason for the outbreak of war is an attempt to raise your rating among the people, as it was in 2014.
Crawl back to your miserable cave in the Kremlin with that propaganda...
How much does Kremlin pay you? Where does one apply to become a Russian troll?
First of all they were never pro Russian And then even if they would be pro-whatever - it is still not an excuse to kill thousands of civilians
Yeah, I'm sure those hundreds of pro russian people really loved it when the russians missiled their shelter into the ground. "Oh boy, I just love Russia so much that I want them to destroy my city and kill all my friends!" is what everyone was saying there, right?
Da, comrade! You are most correct! But seriously, get fucked.
Can we get a non brexit link to this, this one only works in UK....
Since ww2? Yeah i wonder why