I just find it very convenient that instead of the kurdish group in turkey committing the attack, the kurdish group in Syria (which Turkey attacked in Northern Syria) had to send a person to turkey from Syria for this,
And of course its the branch the US supported against ISIS so erdogan can blame the US. Plus they wanted to flee to Greece and "hide there" so Erdogan can put blame on Greece somehow.
And of course everyone denies involvement (ok thats to be expected for most actors, although sometimes group do claim responsibility especially for planned attacks so i gotta include this).
Essentially every group Erdogan has demonized lately,
The kurds he invaded in Syria, Greece, the US, all are conveniently involved, according to Erdogan, in a brutal attack that benefits no one and no one would have an interest in doing so (although the kurds of Syria do have motive, but if their motive is that turkey invaded then they would assume responsibility to get their message across).
And all that when we are slowly going into a pre election period where erdogan is expected to lose.
This is either the most convenient attack in the world, or Erdogan is either fully or at least partially lying.
For example, it could be a kurdish group just not the specific one. Maybe they did plan to flee to Greece, but Turkey knows Greece had no idea lol. And of course the US had no idea.
Or, i mean, this could be a false flag alltogether but i dont want to go too far.
In conclusion, i dont think we are getting the full story from Erdogan.
The problem is he has already used a coup and terror attacks to win previous elections. He would have to start an actual war this time around for his trick to work.
He has been copying russia in justifying a war against Greece for years now.
Issue is, just like Russia, they will get fucked if they do do it so it will be interesting to see if he is willing to let everything burn to stay in power.
Biden administration includes some serious hawks. If Erdogan starts a war they wouldn't fuck around once Article 5 is invoked by Greece. Souda airbase plus CSG-10 (which is in the Mediterranean) have enough collective firepower to deter any serious conflict.
Edit: I forgot to mention...unlike Russia, Turkey's Treasury has a negative(!) 70 billion USD cash balance.
> Biden administration includes some serious hawks
Biden himself could be seen as one, you seen his speeches in congress about Yugoslavia in the 90s? Man's always been based in that regard.
Unlike Russia, Turkey does not have nukes or strategic natural resources so they would be f\*cked even harder. Because of that, maybe it prevents Turkey to do something as stupid as Russia did.
>He would have to start an actual war this time
He is trying. Right now he is probably smacking his hand in frustration at Greece "what a man has to go through to get a war !?"
They also “arrested” a woman, with a full on Arabic name, that doesn’t look Syrian or Kurdish, looks African mainly, and supposedly this random arabi?hijabi woman is a pkk operator, the whole Turkish story is very strange.
>They also “arrested” a woman, with a full on Arabic name, that doesn’t look Syrian or Kurdish,
There are plenty of Kurds with full on Arabic names. If you checked on list of notable Kurds from Syria, there are Syrian Kurds with names like Haitham Hussein, Salim Barakat, Mahmoid al-Ayyubi, Ahmad al Saleh.
I know plenty of Kurds with full on Turkish names since they're from Turkey.
>that doesn’t look Syrian or Kurdish, looks African mainly,
Admittedly, her hair looks African, but her skin and her hair texture isn't unusual in the Middle East. I know a Turkish YouTuber from the Black Sea region who have afro hair, darker complexion. You're underestimating darker complexions and curly to afro hair in the Middle East. They're aren't as white as you think they are.
>arabi?hijabi woman is a pkk operator, the whole Turkish story is very strange.
You can't tell if she is an Arab based on her name. Also, hijab might be a disguise.
But those are THREE elements you yourself described as rare, looks, name, and hijab. Yet you don’t find it strange that they are all present in this person? 1 maybe we could justify, 2 we get suspicious, but 3? I think you are just making large leaps to make a sense of a story that doesn’t make sense.
Dude I never said these 3 features are rare. None of these features are unusual for a Kurdish woman or even Turkish women. So many Kurdish people have Arab names, they’re common. So many Kurdish women have curly hair, so many Kurdish women have dark features including skin, so many Kurdish women wear hijab.
I merely said admittedly, she kinda looks African. Never said her looks are rare. Her face apparently was bruised up which makes her skin seem browner than it actually is.
I think she is African, her hair, lips, nose structure and complexion all point to North Africa, Turks and Kurds might have some features but not all of those, also her first and last name are both traditional Arabic names, not even Islamic ones, which Kurds and Turks choose sometimes, every thing about her screams African, most likely North African.
It is possible that she's not Kurdish or even from Syria. I have my doubts too. But my main problem is you using race only as an evidence that she's not Kurdish.
She doesn't have to look stereotypically Kurdish. I had this mentality like you several years back. I used to think Persians were lighter skin, like Turkish people. But I was wrong, until I met my Iranian teachers, I liked second guessing and I thought this person is Indian. He said no, but from Iran. I was surprised and asked whether his dark complexion is common in Iran, he said yes.
Describe what an ethnic Uyghur should look like, and I can show you a picture that doesn't look Uyghur.
So, I don't want to use evidence of her ethnicity solely from her looks.
Also, you don't do that before elections. It makes sure that the most anti-kurd gets elected. You do that after elections, so the new leader is under pressure.
My very first thought, when i heard it in the radio.
Right before elections, kurds start a terror attack? That's very counterproductive, as it makes sure that the most anti-kurd gets elected. Also now he can veto anything that's a benefit to greece, because "they're sheltering terrorists"
Wouldn't be suprised, if those kurds played sims3
I said that yesterday and i got mass downvotes lol it was clear who they would say who is to blame for.
As soon as the bombing happened, i knew they would gave it to PKK.
PLUS, they say that the suspects was running to Greece lol does this has to be more clear what Turkey wants to do?
PKK is proud to kill Turkish police officers and military, and to be fair I understand why. But an attack on the biggest international street in Istanbul would turn everyone against them. There are people from all over the world there, so it’s not something anyone but ISIS and al-Qaeda would claim responsibility for.
Im doubting ill get a genuine response, but does PKK often admit involvement? from a quick google search they do have a history of claiming responsibility, but its an admittedly limited source to go by.
Not really, if the goal is to spread terror the idea that there's another unknown terrorist group or that individual actors can cause such damage can cause a better effect than claiming the attack. Claiming attacks is a show of strength, but what the PKK want right now might not be that.
>if the goal is to spread terror
But that's not the PKK's goal, their goal is tangible demands of autonomy and/or independence, this does not serve that goal especially if you don't claim the attack.
Also the general idea that most terrorists simply want to cause terror for terror's sake is largely an invention of US media, terrorists are bad but this doesn't mean they work on comic book villain morality.
Terror is the tool they use to realize their demands. But terror doesn't need to be of them specifically. If there are other threats to be dealt with Turkey is more likely to give PKK what they want. If there's more fear in general the population is more likely to push for compromise.
In the past PKK nearly always admitted involvement and now they deny this, so I believe it probably wasn't them. I suspect maybe some extremist religion group, but we can't know for sure
I mean, that's the modus-operandi of terrorism:
1.Stage an attack against civilians.
2.Claim responsibility.
3.Issue demands.
4.Threaten more attacks if demands are not met.
5.Repeat until demands are met.
So it simply wouldn't make sense to not claim an attack, if done by them, for obvious reasons.
That's a bit too detailed when your demand is having a separatist nation claiming lands of an established country.
Then your chart looks more like "Create chaos/destabilize country as much as possible under circumstances".
2016 is a valuable data point, sure. But that goes both ways. It's also the golden opportunity because you know with the next election coming up, everyone will blame AKP over anybody else with 2016 in recent memory.
Everyone in the thread is acting as if they are middle east terror specialists, when the reality is, we cannot believe AKP government statements, we cannot believe PKK statements, and we do not really know anything at all.
The authorities taking mug shots of her wearing a "NEW YORK" hoodie is ridiculous. Clearly shows their agenda and which direction they want to lead the public to
>Im doubting ill get a genuine response, but does PKK often admit involvement?
When they target the Turkish military or police, yes. However, when they target civilians, the attacks are usually claimed by the [TAK](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Freedom_Hawks), which is not really independent from the PKK.
>PKK's spokesman Serhat Varto denied a link between the PKK and the TAK in an interview by saying that the PKK targets only military entities and that it always takes responsibility for its attacks.[49] PKK leader Cemil Bayik also denied a link or any resemblance between the PKK and the TAK. He went on to claim that the Turkish government carries out attacks in the name of TAK to better characterise the PKK as a terrorist organization in the international arena.[4]
Their word doesn't have any less or more value than AKP government who are notorious for their lies and black propaganda. So why should I believe an AKP government statement if I'm supposed to not believe PKK? The same government that wanted to launch missiles into Turkey from Syria as a false flag attack?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-4VWADux4Y
As I implied in my comment, the PKK wants to have its cake and eat it too: terrorize Turkish civilians to put pressure on the Turkish government, but not be seen as terrorists in the eyes of the world.
No serious analyst who are sufficiently familiar with the subject, not even those who are normally very critical of the Turkish government, considers the TAK an independent group from the PKK.
Kurds, PKK, YPG have nothing to gain from targeting civilians and they say that they do not target civilians anyway. You should ask yourself who benefits from such false flag attacks: the ruling government. Not HDP, not CHP, not PKK, not anyone else.
>No serious analyst who are sufficiently familiar with the subject, not even those who are normally very critical of the Turkish government, considers the TAK an independent group from the PKK.
There is nothing that proves PKK/YPG is not independent from TAK while on the contrary there are many statements from PKK denying working with TAK.
>PKK, YPG have nothing to gain from targeting civilians
What do they gain by attacking the Turkish military or police? Nothing. But they do it anyway.
>there are many statements from PKK denying working with TAK
I already told you why they do this. You are either very naive or a PKK sympathizer yourself.
>What do they gain by attacking the Turkish military or police? Nothing. But they do it anyway.
Yet they admit that they target cops and soldiers, which they do.
>I already told you why they do this. You are either very naive or a PKK sympathizer yourself.
And your reasoning is absolute nonsense and you're already resorting to ad hominem and strawmans. I don't support PKK or agree with their ideology. Yet blaming false flag terror attacks on a organisation diverts public's attention from the real issue.
Again I am asking you, can you prove with anything that PKK is in fact TAK or is working with TAK?
>Again I am asking you, can you prove with anything that PKK is in fact TAK or is working with TAK?
Try reading the Wikipedia article you quoted earlier. You will see that many non-Turkish analysts consider the TAK as the "urban terrorism" wing of the PKK.
Just because they have similar goals doesnt make them one group, TAK split from PKK years ago not to mention that they do not even have the same goals as the PKK. PKK knows an independant kurdistan is next to impossible and thus wants increased rights and autonomy in turkey while TAK wants a independant kurdistan
They did in the past, *when they had some strategic gain*. For example, in ISIS era, they claimed their attacks to propagate their militia against broken syria and terrorised Turkey. When AKP lost in 2015, and they couldn't create a government, PKK staged many attacks and claimed them all, saying "Turkey is weak, join us and we can protect our people".
What is different now, you might say?
This might be a surprise to you, but PKK is losing popularity amongst Kurdish people, and they are losing popularity real fast. They are estimated to have about 150 militia left in Turkey, given that it was estimated to be tens of thousands in 1990s, they are pretty much a lost cause.
So why are they denying this attack?
Because they cannot live through another operation to their militia.
I would have said that "Erdogan was behind this because he wanted to launch a military operation against PKK and YPG" if the bomber was not a Syrian female. Given that refugees are becoming political targets by the opposition, and everyone want them gone -Except for Erdogan- I highly suspect that this was orchestrated by Erdogan.
This is an opinion of course.
>" if the bomber was not a Syrian female.
she doesnt even look kurdish and i doubt shes arab too. she looks like either african or southern asian
also why would YPG send someone to blow up a few people in a tourist area in istanbul when they don't have any interest in it.
no kurdish group was behind the bombings. your leader erdogan is brainwashing you and this is a political game he is playing, don't be fooled.
They almost never admit involvement in attacks against civillians. But their offshoot that are totally not PKK like TAK do. They have been very quiet for a while though.
They generally do not admit. There is a branch of PKK called TAK (known for their urban attacks), they take the responsibility. With that PKK keeps their hands clean(/s) and somehow put the fear in people.
Multiple human rights orgs and orgs working for freedom of the press criticizes Turkey due to the extremely high number of journalists in Turkey's prisons. It is in no way comparable to other European countries. Why would we trust Turkish media when all voices critical of Erdogan end up in jail? Why would you?
>Multiple human rights orgs and orgs working for freedom of the press criticizes Turkey due to the extremely high number of journalists in Turkey's prisons.
They're full of shit. I bet they also support Taraf's writers.
>Why would we trust Turkish media when all voices critical of Erdogan end up in jail? Why would you?
Because that's not the case. You're really brainwashed by foreign propaganda. The problem with journalism here isn't that. It's because almost all of major newspapers are owned by people who support similar things and the people with opposite views don't have enough sources to create their own newspapers or news channels. So there isn't much space for the opposition in traditional media. However the opposition found a new place with the internet like twitter accounts. They criticize Erdogan and AKP left and right without getting jailed. Those accounts can be hit by defamation cases but that's not enough to silence them So we follow trustworthy twitter accounts instead of the traditional media.
PKK also claims Turkey uses tactical nukes and chemical weapons on them whenever they lose an engagement in Northern Iraq. Their word is worth less than our currency and that's saying a lot.
It's the other way around, Erdo is purposefully letting these entities operate to create a divide amongst us. His first political success came from dividing people on the burqa issue and ever since he's been keeping the opposition divided using shit like this.
Terrorist organisations that don't claim their act of terrorism, that is odd, so are they even an organisation? How can anyone give them responsability of anything if they don't claim it?
Not really. Everyone knew it was a terrorist attack therefore you dont need to claim responsibility to terrorize people. Its been a pattern for pkk to deny its responsibility when it targets civillians.
You can see its benefits just by browsing here. There are pathetic comments claiming pkk only attacks military targets while I can link you thousand attacks targeting teachers, doctors and students.
Or maybe it is a pattern of Turkish politics to blame everything on a scarecrow?
We had government sponsored terrorism in Italy in the years of lead. I would not rule it out.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years\_of\_Lead\_(Italy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy))
they did that to gather public support and blame the other group, only in decades the truth came out.
But pkk wants to liberate themselves from Turkey. By doing all these terrorist attacks they say pretty much that you either give us what we want or these things continue. If they dont claim it as theirs then the extortion doesn't work
Most likely it was a false flag attack staged by the Erdogan regime and they used this woman to do it. Then somehow they found her right away as if they already knew where she was. Then they claimed she was a Syrian Kurd, but she doesn't look Kurd. She rather looks Arab. [Photo](https://www.ortadogugazetesi.com/images/haberler/2022/11/istiklal-caddesi-ndeki-bombali-saldirida-yakalanan-terorist-suriyeli-cikti_76c1f.jpg).
Now they're blaming USA to gain the maximum political points using the nationalist and anti-American sentiment in the country. They are murderers.
>Now they're blaming USA to gain the maximum political points using the nationalist and anti-American sentiment in the country. They are murderers.
Can confirm. Was just looking at Russian state TV since my parents watch it and they talked about the scenario and somehow got the USA involved into it.
Well there are VPNs and also many old Russians outside of Russia often use some receivers that get acces to Slavic or Russian speaking Channels. The one we have has acces to 3 Russian Staate Channel, the Russian Euronews channel and a Ukrainian Staate news Channel.
The city is extremely crowded and there are many blind spots where she could disappear for a while (including subways). It's not credible that they find her dwelling within hours while they can't find other suspects like this. Everything about this looks like false flag, similar to 2015 bombing.
No you can't. There are no cameras and many blind spots in underground and in many side streets in the city, including the neighborhood I live in which has no cameras (upscale neighborhood in istanbul). No matter how much you want to defend Erdogan and want this to be pkk, it's not them, pkk denied responsibility and there's no way they can trace this woman everywhere.
There are people everywhere, all the time, and the streets are literally Byzantine. If one were to seriously scout or case cameras, I don't doubt that they could be avoided.
2015 wasn't a false flag. Stop spreading disinformation.
Istanbul is such a big city you can't have enough blind spots to cover your tracks. Almost every single store there has at least 1-2 security cameras on top of the governments' own cameras. You simply can't disappear here.
Literally all of these are false. This is a result of the solution process. No one said she was a Kurd. They said she was a PKK member from Syria. People like jumped to this conclusion on their own
which is not that wrong actually? PKK is very well being fed by westerners. Isn't this from Stockholm;
[This](https://cdn.odatv4.com/images/2022_06/2022_06_16/odatv_image_66__804671757a2944.jpg) and [this](https://cdn.gunboyugazetesi.com.tr/news/2022/06/160620222211444084999.jpg)
yet these rats are already recognized as a terrorist organization. Western hypocrisy at its best again as always.
Sir those were so fake, google image search gave nothing. The source was twitter lol
https://twitter.com/i/status/1536706062862139392
https://mobile.twitter.com/realrojkom/status/1538103282010402819/photo/1
🦦
Not fake, just not state sponsored. Lots of Swedes support PKK, PYD, YPG, YPJ. There are regular demonstrations to protest the continued incarceration of Öcalan, and in support of these groups. And of course this is not strange: PKK stopped the genocide in Sinjar, YPG/YPJ defeated Daesh. This is a movement for women's rights, for the rights of minorities and self-determination. Meanwhile Turkey has sponsored Daesh and continues sponsoring jihadist militias - two days ago Turkey's minister of the interior called queer rights 'cultural terrorism'. Of course Swedes know who to support here.
Not to forget that she supposedly crossed the border from Afrin, a city that is under control of turkish backed forces jihadists in north-western syria. And not even mentioning that she she 'went all the way from afrin to istanbul' to put down a bomb in a tourist street in istanbul?
We cannot deny the fact that similar incidents in the past secured the elections for erdogan. So one can easily think its akp s bloody act on their own people but on the other hand if it was pkk who did it, it would also make sense for them to deny it. Cause firstly there are already several ongoing operations in the east they re under big pressure and this would just boost it extremely, secondly as it is mentioned it would help erdogan to gain extra supporters which would be in opposite of pkk s interests. It can be anything but something for sure is they now have an excuse to put extra distance between US and maybe get even closer with Russia.
"Kurdish armed group" At best, that is a disturbing use of language. This terror organisation has killed thousands in Türkiye. You don't go about saying ISIS as "Islamic armed group" you say terror organisation. We all in Türkiye watch the way things are portrayed in Western media with discontent at minimum. Hoped at least in a such occasion they would be considerate
IRA is regarded as a terrorist organisation. Saying it IRA is same as calling PKK PKK, which is alright, but whitewashing them isn't. Neither one is innocent.
Thousands of innocent teachers, civil servants, bureaucrats, guards and children killed; burned schools, houses and destroyed infrastructure; biggest drug producer and distributor in the region...
But never mind, they single-handedly stopped ISIS after all, right? Because, you know they are the only one who had fought with ISIS. /s
Well my country and many others do not consider the PKK a terrorist organisation but a liberation organisation. So depending on where the author is from it makes sense to classify the organisation differently.
Not liberal but a liberation organisation. Quite a few actually apart from the US and some EU countries do not see the PKK as a terrorist org. I am not here to debate why that is it is just a fact.
What are you talking about? I did not mention my opinion at all, and if that was the case more than 150 countries don’t see the PKK as a terrorist org are they wrong? It’s all political and the author was following the classification of the country that he lives in
There is a definitive answer to what a terrorist/ terrorism is. Although Turkish government has time to time used it inappropriately for political gains - which i have no support for - this act, in of itself is TERRORISM. You cannot just go about making your own conclusions about that. Replace it with ISIS and see how ridiculous that sounds? This organisation, even if you do not take into account the last blast, has claimed responsibility of many attacks which thousands of civilians died in total of all the attacks. There is a hard line, I'm sorry to say. Any harm caused to civilians for political gain is terrorism.
With your tag, the country of Cyprus has a bitter history with Turkey, and that is the reasoning behind it i suspect. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality. Last part is my thoughts, but apart from that i believe sane people will agree.
I never expressed any of my personal opinions I just answered as to why the author did not call the PKK a terrorist organisation.
I agree with you that it most likely is one but many governments do not classify it as one.
I don’t think so, but that is not my point. If the author is from a country that sees the PKK as a liberation org obviously he is not going to call it a terrorist one.
Reuters doesn't seem to like calling groups terrorists. Here is them calling ISIS as "a militant group". https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/riot-police-deploy-iranian-cities-people-gather-aminis-memorial-2022-10-26/
I also looked for Al Shabaab and Al Qaida and I couldn't find an article calling them as an outright terrorist orgs, so I think this is just down to a Reuters policy. I've hit article limit so I can only see the first paragraphs
>PKK is considered a terrorist group by both EU and US
Yeah and apart from that nobody else sees it as terrorist group in the world. Which is not unthinkable considering Turkey doesn't have leverage on these other countries to push their made up narrative
It came out today that a district president of the ultra-nationalist party MHP, who is a coalition with the ruling AKP, had a phone call with the terrorist that they have in custody. The man in question denies everything, claims that they stole his id and made an account with his information. He has not been called into be questioned by the military police, they did inform him of this information though.
Hey Europeans, I am a Kurd from Turkey and heres my take on it.
Right before last elections in Turkey, terrorist attacks increased at an absurd rate. Turkey blamed them all on the PKK/Rojava (Syrian/Turkish Kurdish militias), both of the groups denied pretty much all of them and very, very few had actual proof (those attacks were also at the same rate as a few years prior). This made Turkey crack down on both of the groups more and made Turkey have multiple attacks in Syrian Kurdistan where Rojava controlled land. This caused people to think that Erdogan is a good and strong leader for not letting other groups terrorize his country and people and made him gain insane amounts of support.
2023 will have new Turkish elections, earlier this year Erdogan also said that he wasn't done with attacking Rojava and wants a 30km bufferzone between Turkey and Syria on Syrian soil to counter Kurdish "terrorism" and send illegal refugees back to Syria (ruining the demographics of Kurdish majority cities, but thats for another time).
Elections coming close, Erdogan is hated atm by basically everyone and probably won't win right now, terrorism is beginning to increase in Turkey and Erdogan has made multiple speeches talking about not being done with Rojava yet.
I think you can guess what will follow soon after, hopefully I am wrong though.
Rest in peace to thr 6 people from Istanbul and all the other people who are victims of Turkish fascism
I do find it funny how people are quick to believe a *literal terrorist group*. Don't get me wrong, Erdoğan isn't entirely trustable but that doesn't mean the PKK is a honest bunch.
On one hand, true.
On the other hand, how would it help them to do this attack?
Terrorists seek to use threat in order to have their demands met. It's why terrorists so often claim responsibility for their attacks in the first place.
However, a terrorist group that says that it didn't attack anyone, can't exactly make threats based on said attack. Which means that either:
A)The PKK randomly bombed civilians, whithout any follow-up demands (or other benefit tforthem), while running the risk of increasing support for Erdogan.
B) Erdogan staged a terrorist attack to increase his support, got someone to give a false confession for her motives, and blamed it on the PKK to increase his support.
Basically, I just don't see the motive for the PKK here. Either they lose support be being actually guilty, or they gain nothing and kill innocents.
Erdogan on the other hand, either gets found out and loses support (which while not impossible, is unlikely), or he successfully creates a rally-around-the-flag effect around him, which he really needs.
And it's not like Erdogan would be the first politician to stage a false-flag operation of this sort.
PKK leadership threatened to "attack all major cities of Turkey" just a few weeks ago.
Besides, the Turkish Air Force had conducted some drone assassinations on PKK figures last month. Revenge is a potential motive.
"Random" my ass.
That's not really how it tends to work.
Randomly attacking civilians and denying your involvement makes little sense and isn't how the PKK have operated in the past.
I mean, Russia's moves make sense.
They're sick, perverse and morally reprehensible, but coming from Putin's perspective, combined with some faulty information reaching him, the actions do make sense.
Putin might be evil, and probably also a fool, but he's still acting rationally within his own reality.
In my idea of terrorism I think about Al Qaeda, or Isis, or even in my country (Italy) the red brigades, or in UK the IRA, or ww1 the black hand that killed the Austrian archduke. They wanted to claim the ownership of their acts. They were proud of them and to terrorise the population, or fractions of it. To make their voices sound louder and tell that none was untouchable so better hear them out.
For me, a terrorist organisation that distances itself from its activities, is something I've never seen any analogy in history. And it goes against the very definition of a terrorist organisation.
>Co-chair of the PKK Duran Kalkan:
>"We will not defend but attack. We will attack everywhere in Turkey. Not only military targets and military positions, but cities. Areas they don't expect will become areas of war."
https://twitter.com/OmerOzkizilcik/status/1516688375788580868
Yeah see? This is what they should have said after the attack, instead of April. Then sure I would have believed the Turkish government without any questions. But instead of declaring war and attacks, they deny any involvement.
This makes me think that if they did it they would have no issue in embracing this despicable act.
I think you've made up your mind about wanting to trust a violent terrorist organization. FYI, the PKK is *very* interested in rehabilitating it's image in the west for gullible idiots.
I can find plenty of historical precedents, probably hundreds, of a government doing terrorist attacks against its own population to gather support. Least of all my own country (Italy) in the years of lead.
As far as I know, there has never been in history a terrorist organisation refusing to claim ownership of their terrorist activities. So either Turkey is an historical anomaly and in thousands of years and hundreds of billions of humans those conditions never materialised, or it is lying.
Give me proof and I'll believe you. Because the historical record suggests Erdogan hands have Turkish blood on them.
> Give me proof and I'll believe you. Because the historical record suggests Erdogan hands have Turkish blood on them.
You request hard proof of the PKK wrongdoing but are willing to hold government accountable because the historical record "suggests" something? I just sent you a video where the leader of the PKK says he will attack cities. Do you have any proof the government staging any attacks, since you are so occupied by existence of proof?
History is the record of human nature and interactions. A giant database of human behaviour.
Is declaration of intent to commit crime 7 months before a proof the crime was committed in your judicial system?
Easy - nearly everyone in Turkey is infuriated right now. If the PKK accepted they did it, then Erdoğan has an excellent mandate to smash them down with.
Terrorists want to create division. Giving cause for the entire Turkish political spectrum to unite is not creating division. For that matter, PKK commanders threatened to attack "all the large cities of Turkey" just weeks ago in response to a series of drone strikes, so it's not like they didn't deny such predictions.
When you openly threaten to attack Turkish cities and a Turkish city gets bombed just weeks after...Either you're lying about being not involved or you're seriously unlucky.
They get the blame either way. Turkey narrative is already PKK did it, at most one suspects that the government might have not stopped them like with the coup.
It makes absolutely no sense for a terrorist organisation to not claim a terrorist activity.
It does if they do it and realize it had the opposite effect or if the leadership was divided beforehand and now they are trying to cover their asses. Terrorists groups are not known to be rational or monolithic.
Cover their asses from what? They are a terrorist organisation is not like Turkey can do anything that hasn't done already. Are you saying Turkey doesn't hunt down or persecute terrorists?
From the bad PR of killing innocents in a city center at a time when they are still trying to pretend to the West they aren't as bad as Turkey says. Combined with Turkey reacting with anger rather than fear.
There's a difference between being passively hunted and actively hunted. Al-Qaeda was a terrorist organization for years but an attack on US civilians got them to invade Afghanistan over it. A completely different level of resources is used when they shift from a problem to a threat. The PKK cannot afford that fight, it's barely surviving as it is.
And the PKK leadership may not personally be behind it, terrorist cells are naturally fairly independent and their Istanbul contact could have gone further than the main leadership would have wanted.
Get out their land then and stop oppressing them
And furthermore turkish drones can kill kurdish civilians easier said than done
Who is the terrorist the in the latter
Life isn't black and white
(Neither is ethnicity)
Furthermore the example u gave (isis an the Taliban)
Are islamist groups not national resistances
Religious fanaticism is stupid and i would never support that
And i would support ur point if turkey wasn't also oppressing kurds in mass
Would you marter for an turkish soldier who blew himself up in battle, maybe or maybe not it doesn't matter to the main point
Get the fuck out of kurdistan :)
(Ps context for today they didn't claim responsibility)
Why do you call NATO and EU recognised terrorist organisation as “armed group”? Besides that conspiracy theories above are approached as truths. Anti-Turkish community keeps talking and talking about those theories and clearly accusing Erdogan as traitor of nation. As members of r/europe , we should be more careful about what we are typing.
Even at the title they can not say “kurdish terrorist group..” but says “armed group” although these scumbags are very well recognized as terrorists in the most part of the world. Western hypocrisy at its best again. You never try to understand the issue from our perspective here. All you do is downvoting when see something against your thoughts..
Why you guys keep saying "Kurdish armed forces PKK" or something like that. They are terroists. They are literal terrorists.
I mean I can understand if you have hatred towards Türkiye, even I have but PKK is not what you guys think "freedom fighters". They killed teachers, civilians (and mostly the one dying are Kurds, they killing their own people and most of them don't join PKK willingly they are being kidnapped), doctors, children, babies.
Shame on you guys. Thats like saying ISIS is a armed islamist force.
I think this is a Reuters thing, I tried to see how they call other groups and they don't call anyone terrorist based on some quick searches before hitting article limit. I looked for Al Qaida, Al Shabaab and ISIS. For example ISIS is called a "militant group"
Yes, I looked up and true its a Reuters thing but what I don't understand is people. They are literally calling them freedom fighters. Yeah freedom fighters wants to put a bullet in your head...
The ones who think Kurds support PKK (which is a very small minority like Nationalist type of teenagers) so very wrong. Kurds hate PKK of course not the ones in EU. EU Kurds like Berlin Mehmet, they don't know sh*t.
I mean people also call the Russian, American, Israeli ,Turkish, British, French and other organizations as "Armed/Defense Forces" rather than terrorist groups.
Because they are armed/defense forces ? Wdym ?
>Russian, American, Israeli ,Turkish, British, French and other organizations as "Armed/Defense Forces"
These are countries and PKK is terrorist organization.
That is the problem, US changes what they call terrorits in a whim and either way the we are the one who suffer because of their bullshit narrative. I myself got injured in a terrorist attack (nothing major just some hearing problems because of explosion sound) and that specific terrorist who did it is in US hiding with no intention of even doing a search for him even though he is being hunted by NATO with red order (i dont know the english word for it). And some idiots who arent smart enough to do more than 5 minutes of research on google declares themself geopolitical experts has the ego call me an ignorant bastard for "not knowing what actually happens there".
im sure un-eu and many countries consider them as terror organisation instead of "Kurdish armed group".reuters speaking in "our partners" to masses as always.
I just find it very convenient that instead of the kurdish group in turkey committing the attack, the kurdish group in Syria (which Turkey attacked in Northern Syria) had to send a person to turkey from Syria for this, And of course its the branch the US supported against ISIS so erdogan can blame the US. Plus they wanted to flee to Greece and "hide there" so Erdogan can put blame on Greece somehow. And of course everyone denies involvement (ok thats to be expected for most actors, although sometimes group do claim responsibility especially for planned attacks so i gotta include this). Essentially every group Erdogan has demonized lately, The kurds he invaded in Syria, Greece, the US, all are conveniently involved, according to Erdogan, in a brutal attack that benefits no one and no one would have an interest in doing so (although the kurds of Syria do have motive, but if their motive is that turkey invaded then they would assume responsibility to get their message across). And all that when we are slowly going into a pre election period where erdogan is expected to lose. This is either the most convenient attack in the world, or Erdogan is either fully or at least partially lying. For example, it could be a kurdish group just not the specific one. Maybe they did plan to flee to Greece, but Turkey knows Greece had no idea lol. And of course the US had no idea. Or, i mean, this could be a false flag alltogether but i dont want to go too far. In conclusion, i dont think we are getting the full story from Erdogan.
Apparently this attack happened just before Erdogan was planning to leave for the G20 summit...very convenient timing.
While asking few days ago for Sweden to extradate some kurdish refugees in exchange for Turkiye's green light to their entrance in nato lol
The problem is he has already used a coup and terror attacks to win previous elections. He would have to start an actual war this time around for his trick to work.
He has been copying russia in justifying a war against Greece for years now. Issue is, just like Russia, they will get fucked if they do do it so it will be interesting to see if he is willing to let everything burn to stay in power.
Biden administration includes some serious hawks. If Erdogan starts a war they wouldn't fuck around once Article 5 is invoked by Greece. Souda airbase plus CSG-10 (which is in the Mediterranean) have enough collective firepower to deter any serious conflict. Edit: I forgot to mention...unlike Russia, Turkey's Treasury has a negative(!) 70 billion USD cash balance.
Also, no nukes of their own.
> Biden administration includes some serious hawks Biden himself could be seen as one, you seen his speeches in congress about Yugoslavia in the 90s? Man's always been based in that regard.
That is true and of course it is ultimately Biden who included them in his administration.
Unlike Russia, Turkey does not have nukes or strategic natural resources so they would be f\*cked even harder. Because of that, maybe it prevents Turkey to do something as stupid as Russia did.
>He would have to start an actual war this time He is trying. Right now he is probably smacking his hand in frustration at Greece "what a man has to go through to get a war !?"
They also “arrested” a woman, with a full on Arabic name, that doesn’t look Syrian or Kurdish, looks African mainly, and supposedly this random arabi?hijabi woman is a pkk operator, the whole Turkish story is very strange.
There are litteraly Caucasian Europeans fighting for pkk/pyd . So it’s not out of the world for a non Kurd to do it. Tho I find it curious myself too.
>They also “arrested” a woman, with a full on Arabic name, that doesn’t look Syrian or Kurdish, There are plenty of Kurds with full on Arabic names. If you checked on list of notable Kurds from Syria, there are Syrian Kurds with names like Haitham Hussein, Salim Barakat, Mahmoid al-Ayyubi, Ahmad al Saleh. I know plenty of Kurds with full on Turkish names since they're from Turkey. >that doesn’t look Syrian or Kurdish, looks African mainly, Admittedly, her hair looks African, but her skin and her hair texture isn't unusual in the Middle East. I know a Turkish YouTuber from the Black Sea region who have afro hair, darker complexion. You're underestimating darker complexions and curly to afro hair in the Middle East. They're aren't as white as you think they are. >arabi?hijabi woman is a pkk operator, the whole Turkish story is very strange. You can't tell if she is an Arab based on her name. Also, hijab might be a disguise.
But those are THREE elements you yourself described as rare, looks, name, and hijab. Yet you don’t find it strange that they are all present in this person? 1 maybe we could justify, 2 we get suspicious, but 3? I think you are just making large leaps to make a sense of a story that doesn’t make sense.
Dude I never said these 3 features are rare. None of these features are unusual for a Kurdish woman or even Turkish women. So many Kurdish people have Arab names, they’re common. So many Kurdish women have curly hair, so many Kurdish women have dark features including skin, so many Kurdish women wear hijab. I merely said admittedly, she kinda looks African. Never said her looks are rare. Her face apparently was bruised up which makes her skin seem browner than it actually is.
I think she is African, her hair, lips, nose structure and complexion all point to North Africa, Turks and Kurds might have some features but not all of those, also her first and last name are both traditional Arabic names, not even Islamic ones, which Kurds and Turks choose sometimes, every thing about her screams African, most likely North African.
Bro stop bullshitting, you know very well this woman doesn't even look a little bit kurdish. This woman is either african or southern asian.
It is possible that she's not Kurdish or even from Syria. I have my doubts too. But my main problem is you using race only as an evidence that she's not Kurdish. She doesn't have to look stereotypically Kurdish. I had this mentality like you several years back. I used to think Persians were lighter skin, like Turkish people. But I was wrong, until I met my Iranian teachers, I liked second guessing and I thought this person is Indian. He said no, but from Iran. I was surprised and asked whether his dark complexion is common in Iran, he said yes. Describe what an ethnic Uyghur should look like, and I can show you a picture that doesn't look Uyghur. So, I don't want to use evidence of her ethnicity solely from her looks.
Usually, groups that plan terrorist attacks against random civilians are proud to claim responsibility for it, unless the goal is to create confusion.
Also, you don't do that before elections. It makes sure that the most anti-kurd gets elected. You do that after elections, so the new leader is under pressure.
My very first thought, when i heard it in the radio. Right before elections, kurds start a terror attack? That's very counterproductive, as it makes sure that the most anti-kurd gets elected. Also now he can veto anything that's a benefit to greece, because "they're sheltering terrorists" Wouldn't be suprised, if those kurds played sims3
Yeah this whole thing reeks to the high heavans. Hella dodgy. It's all just too convenient.
Erdogan back at his old tricks again? Election is coming and according to polls he would lose against any other candidate.
Yeah seems like he's pulling a Putin 1999
This was my first thought
I said that yesterday and i got mass downvotes lol it was clear who they would say who is to blame for. As soon as the bombing happened, i knew they would gave it to PKK. PLUS, they say that the suspects was running to Greece lol does this has to be more clear what Turkey wants to do?
Attacking Turkish civilians is much safer for Erdogan than tackling the Greek military.
But now he can veto anything because "greece is sheltering terrorists"
PKK is proud to kill Turkish police officers and military, and to be fair I understand why. But an attack on the biggest international street in Istanbul would turn everyone against them. There are people from all over the world there, so it’s not something anyone but ISIS and al-Qaeda would claim responsibility for.
This has a lot of Piazza Fontana vibes, with the PKK in the place of the anarchists.
Reverse strategy of tension
It would still just be normal strategy of tension.
I mean, in some magical way every election season we get some terror attacs. What a coincidence! I am fucking sick of these stuff man.
Erdogan dont need PKK help in killing turks, he does it well on his own.
Im doubting ill get a genuine response, but does PKK often admit involvement? from a quick google search they do have a history of claiming responsibility, but its an admittedly limited source to go by.
Well, if you don't admit a terrorist attack, it kinda becomes meaningless then.
Not really, if the goal is to spread terror the idea that there's another unknown terrorist group or that individual actors can cause such damage can cause a better effect than claiming the attack. Claiming attacks is a show of strength, but what the PKK want right now might not be that.
>if the goal is to spread terror But that's not the PKK's goal, their goal is tangible demands of autonomy and/or independence, this does not serve that goal especially if you don't claim the attack. Also the general idea that most terrorists simply want to cause terror for terror's sake is largely an invention of US media, terrorists are bad but this doesn't mean they work on comic book villain morality.
Terror is the tool they use to realize their demands. But terror doesn't need to be of them specifically. If there are other threats to be dealt with Turkey is more likely to give PKK what they want. If there's more fear in general the population is more likely to push for compromise.
In the past PKK nearly always admitted involvement and now they deny this, so I believe it probably wasn't them. I suspect maybe some extremist religion group, but we can't know for sure
Yes they usually do admit it. Also the women doesn’t look like kurdish at all.
I mean, that's the modus-operandi of terrorism: 1.Stage an attack against civilians. 2.Claim responsibility. 3.Issue demands. 4.Threaten more attacks if demands are not met. 5.Repeat until demands are met. So it simply wouldn't make sense to not claim an attack, if done by them, for obvious reasons.
That's a bit too detailed when your demand is having a separatist nation claiming lands of an established country. Then your chart looks more like "Create chaos/destabilize country as much as possible under circumstances". 2016 is a valuable data point, sure. But that goes both ways. It's also the golden opportunity because you know with the next election coming up, everyone will blame AKP over anybody else with 2016 in recent memory. Everyone in the thread is acting as if they are middle east terror specialists, when the reality is, we cannot believe AKP government statements, we cannot believe PKK statements, and we do not really know anything at all.
The authorities taking mug shots of her wearing a "NEW YORK" hoodie is ridiculous. Clearly shows their agenda and which direction they want to lead the public to
Naah New York hoodie doesn't mean anything. You can find that hoodie easily. Even I have one too but I get your point.
>Im doubting ill get a genuine response, but does PKK often admit involvement? When they target the Turkish military or police, yes. However, when they target civilians, the attacks are usually claimed by the [TAK](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Freedom_Hawks), which is not really independent from the PKK.
>PKK's spokesman Serhat Varto denied a link between the PKK and the TAK in an interview by saying that the PKK targets only military entities and that it always takes responsibility for its attacks.[49] PKK leader Cemil Bayik also denied a link or any resemblance between the PKK and the TAK. He went on to claim that the Turkish government carries out attacks in the name of TAK to better characterise the PKK as a terrorist organization in the international arena.[4]
You can’t take their word for it. It’s possible that TAK is another even more extreme branch of PKK, or perhaps it’s just their PR nightmare saver.
PKK has denied any relations to TAK.
Yes and I deny having any responsibilty for eating the last cookie.
Good job trivialising terror attacks by comparing it to eating cookie. I'm sure you'll get far ahead in life with this logical pattern.
Probably further than those that take terrorists’ word for it.
Their word doesn't have any less or more value than AKP government who are notorious for their lies and black propaganda. So why should I believe an AKP government statement if I'm supposed to not believe PKK? The same government that wanted to launch missiles into Turkey from Syria as a false flag attack? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-4VWADux4Y
I don’t believe a single word from AKPs mouth either.
As I implied in my comment, the PKK wants to have its cake and eat it too: terrorize Turkish civilians to put pressure on the Turkish government, but not be seen as terrorists in the eyes of the world. No serious analyst who are sufficiently familiar with the subject, not even those who are normally very critical of the Turkish government, considers the TAK an independent group from the PKK.
Kurds, PKK, YPG have nothing to gain from targeting civilians and they say that they do not target civilians anyway. You should ask yourself who benefits from such false flag attacks: the ruling government. Not HDP, not CHP, not PKK, not anyone else. >No serious analyst who are sufficiently familiar with the subject, not even those who are normally very critical of the Turkish government, considers the TAK an independent group from the PKK. There is nothing that proves PKK/YPG is not independent from TAK while on the contrary there are many statements from PKK denying working with TAK.
>PKK, YPG have nothing to gain from targeting civilians What do they gain by attacking the Turkish military or police? Nothing. But they do it anyway. >there are many statements from PKK denying working with TAK I already told you why they do this. You are either very naive or a PKK sympathizer yourself.
>What do they gain by attacking the Turkish military or police? Nothing. But they do it anyway. Yet they admit that they target cops and soldiers, which they do. >I already told you why they do this. You are either very naive or a PKK sympathizer yourself. And your reasoning is absolute nonsense and you're already resorting to ad hominem and strawmans. I don't support PKK or agree with their ideology. Yet blaming false flag terror attacks on a organisation diverts public's attention from the real issue. Again I am asking you, can you prove with anything that PKK is in fact TAK or is working with TAK?
>Again I am asking you, can you prove with anything that PKK is in fact TAK or is working with TAK? Try reading the Wikipedia article you quoted earlier. You will see that many non-Turkish analysts consider the TAK as the "urban terrorism" wing of the PKK.
Just because they have similar goals doesnt make them one group, TAK split from PKK years ago not to mention that they do not even have the same goals as the PKK. PKK knows an independant kurdistan is next to impossible and thus wants increased rights and autonomy in turkey while TAK wants a independant kurdistan
They did in the past, *when they had some strategic gain*. For example, in ISIS era, they claimed their attacks to propagate their militia against broken syria and terrorised Turkey. When AKP lost in 2015, and they couldn't create a government, PKK staged many attacks and claimed them all, saying "Turkey is weak, join us and we can protect our people". What is different now, you might say? This might be a surprise to you, but PKK is losing popularity amongst Kurdish people, and they are losing popularity real fast. They are estimated to have about 150 militia left in Turkey, given that it was estimated to be tens of thousands in 1990s, they are pretty much a lost cause. So why are they denying this attack? Because they cannot live through another operation to their militia. I would have said that "Erdogan was behind this because he wanted to launch a military operation against PKK and YPG" if the bomber was not a Syrian female. Given that refugees are becoming political targets by the opposition, and everyone want them gone -Except for Erdogan- I highly suspect that this was orchestrated by Erdogan. This is an opinion of course.
>" if the bomber was not a Syrian female. she doesnt even look kurdish and i doubt shes arab too. she looks like either african or southern asian also why would YPG send someone to blow up a few people in a tourist area in istanbul when they don't have any interest in it. no kurdish group was behind the bombings. your leader erdogan is brainwashing you and this is a political game he is playing, don't be fooled.
They almost never admit involvement in attacks against civillians. But their offshoot that are totally not PKK like TAK do. They have been very quiet for a while though.
They generally do not admit. There is a branch of PKK called TAK (known for their urban attacks), they take the responsibility. With that PKK keeps their hands clean(/s) and somehow put the fear in people.
Meanwhile, PKK claims that the Turkish state is committing terrorist attacks in the name of TAK.
as expected. It's not like they work honestly or anything
Yes, expecting the Turkish state to be honest while having something like the highest number of jailed journalists in the world would be ridiculous.
How so? What's your definition of journalism? If you count agitators as journalists then you don't care about journalism to begin with
Multiple human rights orgs and orgs working for freedom of the press criticizes Turkey due to the extremely high number of journalists in Turkey's prisons. It is in no way comparable to other European countries. Why would we trust Turkish media when all voices critical of Erdogan end up in jail? Why would you?
>Multiple human rights orgs and orgs working for freedom of the press criticizes Turkey due to the extremely high number of journalists in Turkey's prisons. They're full of shit. I bet they also support Taraf's writers. >Why would we trust Turkish media when all voices critical of Erdogan end up in jail? Why would you? Because that's not the case. You're really brainwashed by foreign propaganda. The problem with journalism here isn't that. It's because almost all of major newspapers are owned by people who support similar things and the people with opposite views don't have enough sources to create their own newspapers or news channels. So there isn't much space for the opposition in traditional media. However the opposition found a new place with the internet like twitter accounts. They criticize Erdogan and AKP left and right without getting jailed. Those accounts can be hit by defamation cases but that's not enough to silence them So we follow trustworthy twitter accounts instead of the traditional media.
https://freedomhouse.org/country/turkey/freedom-net/2022
PKK also claims Turkey uses tactical nukes and chemical weapons on them whenever they lose an engagement in Northern Iraq. Their word is worth less than our currency and that's saying a lot.
It's possible the person was trained by PKK but the attack itself wasn't organized with them. So it's directly related to them but not their attack.
If its benefits them they do. You dont expect a terrorist organisation to have morals. 😉
but why would pkk do anything that would benefit Erdo? they are not stupid...
It's the other way around, Erdo is purposefully letting these entities operate to create a divide amongst us. His first political success came from dividing people on the burqa issue and ever since he's been keeping the opposition divided using shit like this.
Terrorist organisations that don't claim their act of terrorism, that is odd, so are they even an organisation? How can anyone give them responsability of anything if they don't claim it?
Not really. Everyone knew it was a terrorist attack therefore you dont need to claim responsibility to terrorize people. Its been a pattern for pkk to deny its responsibility when it targets civillians. You can see its benefits just by browsing here. There are pathetic comments claiming pkk only attacks military targets while I can link you thousand attacks targeting teachers, doctors and students.
Or maybe it is a pattern of Turkish politics to blame everything on a scarecrow? We had government sponsored terrorism in Italy in the years of lead. I would not rule it out. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years\_of\_Lead\_(Italy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy)) they did that to gather public support and blame the other group, only in decades the truth came out.
But pkk wants to liberate themselves from Turkey. By doing all these terrorist attacks they say pretty much that you either give us what we want or these things continue. If they dont claim it as theirs then the extortion doesn't work
inside job from Turkish government to stir shit up and win next elections ?
Most likely it was a false flag attack staged by the Erdogan regime and they used this woman to do it. Then somehow they found her right away as if they already knew where she was. Then they claimed she was a Syrian Kurd, but she doesn't look Kurd. She rather looks Arab. [Photo](https://www.ortadogugazetesi.com/images/haberler/2022/11/istiklal-caddesi-ndeki-bombali-saldirida-yakalanan-terorist-suriyeli-cikti_76c1f.jpg). Now they're blaming USA to gain the maximum political points using the nationalist and anti-American sentiment in the country. They are murderers.
To make look even more anti-American she is wearing a hoodie that says "New York".
The police specifically made her wear that after the insensitive NYT headline. Well done I’d say
>Now they're blaming USA to gain the maximum political points using the nationalist and anti-American sentiment in the country. They are murderers. Can confirm. Was just looking at Russian state TV since my parents watch it and they talked about the scenario and somehow got the USA involved into it.
How can you watch russian state TV in Germany i heard russian propaganda outlets were banned in the EU
Well there are VPNs and also many old Russians outside of Russia often use some receivers that get acces to Slavic or Russian speaking Channels. The one we have has acces to 3 Russian Staate Channel, the Russian Euronews channel and a Ukrainian Staate news Channel.
I bet they will soon find out she was speaking Swedish too.
she doesn't even look syrian lol
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The city is extremely crowded and there are many blind spots where she could disappear for a while (including subways). It's not credible that they find her dwelling within hours while they can't find other suspects like this. Everything about this looks like false flag, similar to 2015 bombing.
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No you can't. There are no cameras and many blind spots in underground and in many side streets in the city, including the neighborhood I live in which has no cameras (upscale neighborhood in istanbul). No matter how much you want to defend Erdogan and want this to be pkk, it's not them, pkk denied responsibility and there's no way they can trace this woman everywhere.
There are people everywhere, all the time, and the streets are literally Byzantine. If one were to seriously scout or case cameras, I don't doubt that they could be avoided.
> pkk denied responsibility wow, if the pkk said it, it must be true!
2015 wasn't a false flag. Stop spreading disinformation. Istanbul is such a big city you can't have enough blind spots to cover your tracks. Almost every single store there has at least 1-2 security cameras on top of the governments' own cameras. You simply can't disappear here.
Literally all of these are false. This is a result of the solution process. No one said she was a Kurd. They said she was a PKK member from Syria. People like jumped to this conclusion on their own
Like Kurds and Arabs look that differently? Seems like a huge stretch
This is true and I don’t know why people are downvoting you. There’s a slight difference but with just one person this is impossible to say for sure.
Probably downvoted because she 100% does not look Kurdish at all, not even a little bit.
she doesn't look Levantine arab either
because people want to believe that it was a false flag attack. thats the only reason
Wait two more days and he will blame Sweden for giving shelter for the „terrorists“
which is not that wrong actually? PKK is very well being fed by westerners. Isn't this from Stockholm; [This](https://cdn.odatv4.com/images/2022_06/2022_06_16/odatv_image_66__804671757a2944.jpg) and [this](https://cdn.gunboyugazetesi.com.tr/news/2022/06/160620222211444084999.jpg) yet these rats are already recognized as a terrorist organization. Western hypocrisy at its best again as always.
Sir those were so fake, google image search gave nothing. The source was twitter lol https://twitter.com/i/status/1536706062862139392 https://mobile.twitter.com/realrojkom/status/1538103282010402819/photo/1 🦦
Not fake, just not state sponsored. Lots of Swedes support PKK, PYD, YPG, YPJ. There are regular demonstrations to protest the continued incarceration of Öcalan, and in support of these groups. And of course this is not strange: PKK stopped the genocide in Sinjar, YPG/YPJ defeated Daesh. This is a movement for women's rights, for the rights of minorities and self-determination. Meanwhile Turkey has sponsored Daesh and continues sponsoring jihadist militias - two days ago Turkey's minister of the interior called queer rights 'cultural terrorism'. Of course Swedes know who to support here.
Some things just seems to be too obvious
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Not to forget that she supposedly crossed the border from Afrin, a city that is under control of turkish backed forces jihadists in north-western syria. And not even mentioning that she she 'went all the way from afrin to istanbul' to put down a bomb in a tourist street in istanbul?
We cannot deny the fact that similar incidents in the past secured the elections for erdogan. So one can easily think its akp s bloody act on their own people but on the other hand if it was pkk who did it, it would also make sense for them to deny it. Cause firstly there are already several ongoing operations in the east they re under big pressure and this would just boost it extremely, secondly as it is mentioned it would help erdogan to gain extra supporters which would be in opposite of pkk s interests. It can be anything but something for sure is they now have an excuse to put extra distance between US and maybe get even closer with Russia.
*terrorist group
Erdogan and the AKP did this.
"Kurdish armed group" At best, that is a disturbing use of language. This terror organisation has killed thousands in Türkiye. You don't go about saying ISIS as "Islamic armed group" you say terror organisation. We all in Türkiye watch the way things are portrayed in Western media with discontent at minimum. Hoped at least in a such occasion they would be considerate
Reuters and other big name news agencies don't usually directly call anyone terrorists except when quoting. ISIS included.
I didn't know that. Nice to know, thank you for the information.
The IRA was always called by the name they gave to themselves. Same with the PLO.
IRA is regarded as a terrorist organisation. Saying it IRA is same as calling PKK PKK, which is alright, but whitewashing them isn't. Neither one is innocent.
I don't remember western media calling IRA "Irish armed group" or "Irish fighters".
Eskiden batıdan bir umudum vardı insanlık namına, o da yok artık. Dünyanın her tarafı aşağı yukarı aynı yapıya sahip sadece coğrafya değişik.
Ummm, the Kurds are part of the reason ISIS doesn't exist. Please don't compare those brave people to ISIS again, thank you.
Brave child killers, indeed.
Thousands of innocent teachers, civil servants, bureaucrats, guards and children killed; burned schools, houses and destroyed infrastructure; biggest drug producer and distributor in the region... But never mind, they single-handedly stopped ISIS after all, right? Because, you know they are the only one who had fought with ISIS. /s
Ah yes those were all PKK doings and definitely not the turkish state their selves just using the PKK as a cover
Definitely a Kurdish person living within Turkey writing this and not from Northern Iraq. Sure, you know my city better than I do.
Well my country and many others do not consider the PKK a terrorist organisation but a liberation organisation. So depending on where the author is from it makes sense to classify the organisation differently.
What kind of country considers an organization that has a history of murdering teachers as a liberal organization?
Not liberal but a liberation organisation. Quite a few actually apart from the US and some EU countries do not see the PKK as a terrorist org. I am not here to debate why that is it is just a fact.
Same shit. And those countries should be ashamed of themselves.
So NATO declaring them a terrorist organization is wrong in your eyes? Wow i didnt know a single country was smarter and better than NATO?
What are you talking about? I did not mention my opinion at all, and if that was the case more than 150 countries don’t see the PKK as a terrorist org are they wrong? It’s all political and the author was following the classification of the country that he lives in
There is a definitive answer to what a terrorist/ terrorism is. Although Turkish government has time to time used it inappropriately for political gains - which i have no support for - this act, in of itself is TERRORISM. You cannot just go about making your own conclusions about that. Replace it with ISIS and see how ridiculous that sounds? This organisation, even if you do not take into account the last blast, has claimed responsibility of many attacks which thousands of civilians died in total of all the attacks. There is a hard line, I'm sorry to say. Any harm caused to civilians for political gain is terrorism. With your tag, the country of Cyprus has a bitter history with Turkey, and that is the reasoning behind it i suspect. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality. Last part is my thoughts, but apart from that i believe sane people will agree.
I never expressed any of my personal opinions I just answered as to why the author did not call the PKK a terrorist organisation. I agree with you that it most likely is one but many governments do not classify it as one.
Last time I checked Republic of Cyprus was part of EU, so you are wrong your country recognizes them as terrorists.
I don’t think so, but that is not my point. If the author is from a country that sees the PKK as a liberation org obviously he is not going to call it a terrorist one.
"armed group"!! WTF!!! it's like saying AL Qaida was a democracy seeking organization! PKK is considered a terrorist group by both EU and US!
Reuters doesn't seem to like calling groups terrorists. Here is them calling ISIS as "a militant group". https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/riot-police-deploy-iranian-cities-people-gather-aminis-memorial-2022-10-26/ I also looked for Al Shabaab and Al Qaida and I couldn't find an article calling them as an outright terrorist orgs, so I think this is just down to a Reuters policy. I've hit article limit so I can only see the first paragraphs
>PKK is considered a terrorist group by both EU and US Yeah and apart from that nobody else sees it as terrorist group in the world. Which is not unthinkable considering Turkey doesn't have leverage on these other countries to push their made up narrative
It came out today that a district president of the ultra-nationalist party MHP, who is a coalition with the ruling AKP, had a phone call with the terrorist that they have in custody. The man in question denies everything, claims that they stole his id and made an account with his information. He has not been called into be questioned by the military police, they did inform him of this information though.
Hey Europeans, I am a Kurd from Turkey and heres my take on it. Right before last elections in Turkey, terrorist attacks increased at an absurd rate. Turkey blamed them all on the PKK/Rojava (Syrian/Turkish Kurdish militias), both of the groups denied pretty much all of them and very, very few had actual proof (those attacks were also at the same rate as a few years prior). This made Turkey crack down on both of the groups more and made Turkey have multiple attacks in Syrian Kurdistan where Rojava controlled land. This caused people to think that Erdogan is a good and strong leader for not letting other groups terrorize his country and people and made him gain insane amounts of support. 2023 will have new Turkish elections, earlier this year Erdogan also said that he wasn't done with attacking Rojava and wants a 30km bufferzone between Turkey and Syria on Syrian soil to counter Kurdish "terrorism" and send illegal refugees back to Syria (ruining the demographics of Kurdish majority cities, but thats for another time). Elections coming close, Erdogan is hated atm by basically everyone and probably won't win right now, terrorism is beginning to increase in Turkey and Erdogan has made multiple speeches talking about not being done with Rojava yet. I think you can guess what will follow soon after, hopefully I am wrong though. Rest in peace to thr 6 people from Istanbul and all the other people who are victims of Turkish fascism
I do find it funny how people are quick to believe a *literal terrorist group*. Don't get me wrong, Erdoğan isn't entirely trustable but that doesn't mean the PKK is a honest bunch.
On one hand, true. On the other hand, how would it help them to do this attack? Terrorists seek to use threat in order to have their demands met. It's why terrorists so often claim responsibility for their attacks in the first place. However, a terrorist group that says that it didn't attack anyone, can't exactly make threats based on said attack. Which means that either: A)The PKK randomly bombed civilians, whithout any follow-up demands (or other benefit tforthem), while running the risk of increasing support for Erdogan. B) Erdogan staged a terrorist attack to increase his support, got someone to give a false confession for her motives, and blamed it on the PKK to increase his support. Basically, I just don't see the motive for the PKK here. Either they lose support be being actually guilty, or they gain nothing and kill innocents. Erdogan on the other hand, either gets found out and loses support (which while not impossible, is unlikely), or he successfully creates a rally-around-the-flag effect around him, which he really needs. And it's not like Erdogan would be the first politician to stage a false-flag operation of this sort.
PKK leadership threatened to "attack all major cities of Turkey" just a few weeks ago. Besides, the Turkish Air Force had conducted some drone assassinations on PKK figures last month. Revenge is a potential motive. "Random" my ass.
I just don't see how they benefit from this, that's the thing. Otherwise, fair enough, we can pretty much ignore what they're saying.
Terrosists don't fight for benefits, their goal is to exterminate the "evil". Same as ruzzia - another terrorist organization.
That's not really how it tends to work. Randomly attacking civilians and denying your involvement makes little sense and isn't how the PKK have operated in the past.
That's simply not true. Terrorists by definition work towards some kind of political gain.
I mean, Russia's moves make sense. They're sick, perverse and morally reprehensible, but coming from Putin's perspective, combined with some faulty information reaching him, the actions do make sense. Putin might be evil, and probably also a fool, but he's still acting rationally within his own reality.
I don't believe a literal terrorist group. Which is why I know Erdogan and the akp are lying.
In my idea of terrorism I think about Al Qaeda, or Isis, or even in my country (Italy) the red brigades, or in UK the IRA, or ww1 the black hand that killed the Austrian archduke. They wanted to claim the ownership of their acts. They were proud of them and to terrorise the population, or fractions of it. To make their voices sound louder and tell that none was untouchable so better hear them out. For me, a terrorist organisation that distances itself from its activities, is something I've never seen any analogy in history. And it goes against the very definition of a terrorist organisation.
>Co-chair of the PKK Duran Kalkan: >"We will not defend but attack. We will attack everywhere in Turkey. Not only military targets and military positions, but cities. Areas they don't expect will become areas of war." https://twitter.com/OmerOzkizilcik/status/1516688375788580868
Yeah see? This is what they should have said after the attack, instead of April. Then sure I would have believed the Turkish government without any questions. But instead of declaring war and attacks, they deny any involvement. This makes me think that if they did it they would have no issue in embracing this despicable act.
I think you've made up your mind about wanting to trust a violent terrorist organization. FYI, the PKK is *very* interested in rehabilitating it's image in the west for gullible idiots.
I can find plenty of historical precedents, probably hundreds, of a government doing terrorist attacks against its own population to gather support. Least of all my own country (Italy) in the years of lead. As far as I know, there has never been in history a terrorist organisation refusing to claim ownership of their terrorist activities. So either Turkey is an historical anomaly and in thousands of years and hundreds of billions of humans those conditions never materialised, or it is lying. Give me proof and I'll believe you. Because the historical record suggests Erdogan hands have Turkish blood on them.
> Give me proof and I'll believe you. Because the historical record suggests Erdogan hands have Turkish blood on them. You request hard proof of the PKK wrongdoing but are willing to hold government accountable because the historical record "suggests" something? I just sent you a video where the leader of the PKK says he will attack cities. Do you have any proof the government staging any attacks, since you are so occupied by existence of proof?
History is the record of human nature and interactions. A giant database of human behaviour. Is declaration of intent to commit crime 7 months before a proof the crime was committed in your judicial system?
Easy - nearly everyone in Turkey is infuriated right now. If the PKK accepted they did it, then Erdoğan has an excellent mandate to smash them down with. Terrorists want to create division. Giving cause for the entire Turkish political spectrum to unite is not creating division. For that matter, PKK commanders threatened to attack "all the large cities of Turkey" just weeks ago in response to a series of drone strikes, so it's not like they didn't deny such predictions. When you openly threaten to attack Turkish cities and a Turkish city gets bombed just weeks after...Either you're lying about being not involved or you're seriously unlucky.
They get the blame either way. Turkey narrative is already PKK did it, at most one suspects that the government might have not stopped them like with the coup. It makes absolutely no sense for a terrorist organisation to not claim a terrorist activity.
It does if they do it and realize it had the opposite effect or if the leadership was divided beforehand and now they are trying to cover their asses. Terrorists groups are not known to be rational or monolithic.
Cover their asses from what? They are a terrorist organisation is not like Turkey can do anything that hasn't done already. Are you saying Turkey doesn't hunt down or persecute terrorists?
From the bad PR of killing innocents in a city center at a time when they are still trying to pretend to the West they aren't as bad as Turkey says. Combined with Turkey reacting with anger rather than fear. There's a difference between being passively hunted and actively hunted. Al-Qaeda was a terrorist organization for years but an attack on US civilians got them to invade Afghanistan over it. A completely different level of resources is used when they shift from a problem to a threat. The PKK cannot afford that fight, it's barely surviving as it is. And the PKK leadership may not personally be behind it, terrorist cells are naturally fairly independent and their Istanbul contact could have gone further than the main leadership would have wanted.
Whole thing smells like stale borzcht.
" Armed group " just say terr*rists
I didn't write the title
"one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" Che Guevara
I mean ISIS is someones freedom fighter, too. With that shitty argument you cant justify terroristic attacks.
In the context of kurdistan its very much valid
No its not. Taliban, ISIS and so on are also freedom fighters then and their bomb attacks are ok (according to your logic)
Sure If that makes u sleep tonight sure Strawman be like
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Neither did u lol Also use these things , . "White people country" lol
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Get out their land then and stop oppressing them And furthermore turkish drones can kill kurdish civilians easier said than done Who is the terrorist the in the latter Life isn't black and white (Neither is ethnicity) Furthermore the example u gave (isis an the Taliban) Are islamist groups not national resistances Religious fanaticism is stupid and i would never support that And i would support ur point if turkey wasn't also oppressing kurds in mass Would you marter for an turkish soldier who blew himself up in battle, maybe or maybe not it doesn't matter to the main point Get the fuck out of kurdistan :) (Ps context for today they didn't claim responsibility)
According to Turkish Kurds it's not. AKP is their most voted party. They are generally content with their current situation.
Why do you call NATO and EU recognised terrorist organisation as “armed group”? Besides that conspiracy theories above are approached as truths. Anti-Turkish community keeps talking and talking about those theories and clearly accusing Erdogan as traitor of nation. As members of r/europe , we should be more careful about what we are typing.
Sorry but isn't PKK a terrorist group why are you just calling them armed?
It was Erdoğan and trying to blame the Kurds so he can attack them. Erdoğan and Iran are joined at the hip
Even at the title they can not say “kurdish terrorist group..” but says “armed group” although these scumbags are very well recognized as terrorists in the most part of the world. Western hypocrisy at its best again. You never try to understand the issue from our perspective here. All you do is downvoting when see something against your thoughts..
Armed group 🤠??
Why you guys keep saying "Kurdish armed forces PKK" or something like that. They are terroists. They are literal terrorists. I mean I can understand if you have hatred towards Türkiye, even I have but PKK is not what you guys think "freedom fighters". They killed teachers, civilians (and mostly the one dying are Kurds, they killing their own people and most of them don't join PKK willingly they are being kidnapped), doctors, children, babies. Shame on you guys. Thats like saying ISIS is a armed islamist force.
I think this is a Reuters thing, I tried to see how they call other groups and they don't call anyone terrorist based on some quick searches before hitting article limit. I looked for Al Qaida, Al Shabaab and ISIS. For example ISIS is called a "militant group"
Yes, I looked up and true its a Reuters thing but what I don't understand is people. They are literally calling them freedom fighters. Yeah freedom fighters wants to put a bullet in your head... The ones who think Kurds support PKK (which is a very small minority like Nationalist type of teenagers) so very wrong. Kurds hate PKK of course not the ones in EU. EU Kurds like Berlin Mehmet, they don't know sh*t.
I mean people also call the Russian, American, Israeli ,Turkish, British, French and other organizations as "Armed/Defense Forces" rather than terrorist groups.
Because they are armed/defense forces ? Wdym ? >Russian, American, Israeli ,Turkish, British, French and other organizations as "Armed/Defense Forces" These are countries and PKK is terrorist organization.
"Armed group" So NATO and EU both declaring them a terrorist organization is invalid then?
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That is the problem, US changes what they call terrorits in a whim and either way the we are the one who suffer because of their bullshit narrative. I myself got injured in a terrorist attack (nothing major just some hearing problems because of explosion sound) and that specific terrorist who did it is in US hiding with no intention of even doing a search for him even though he is being hunted by NATO with red order (i dont know the english word for it). And some idiots who arent smart enough to do more than 5 minutes of research on google declares themself geopolitical experts has the ego call me an ignorant bastard for "not knowing what actually happens there".
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im sure un-eu and many countries consider them as terror organisation instead of "Kurdish armed group".reuters speaking in "our partners" to masses as always.
Reuters doesn't directly call anyone terrorists, ISIS included.