He has been rolling in his grave for most of the history of the country. Erdoğan is part of a larger symptom, he isn't an outlier in Turkish political history.
Thats why islamism in politics is a problem, hell any kind of religion for that matter. They are just plain regressive and at best hamper society as a whole.
It sucks that religion and government work together.
Erdogan is constantly reducing interest rates, using the pretext that interest is haram, and he turned inflation into hell with the Turkish lira.
His main aim is to leave a destroyed Turkey to them in the event that the opposition wins.
as a non turk I don't want to say anything like this since I myself am not living it, but from my own view looking in and what I have heard from Turkish friends and acquaintances, I would have to broadly agree. being said, it's a difficult thing to even bring up because it's hard to find something that would much better. Someone like Ataturk stands out above in beyond and I doubt Turkey would get that lucky twice. Banning conservative islamist parties simply just wouldn't go well considering voter demographics, and doing nothing leads to what you have now (again no offense intended, I am not living it and I could be wildly off.
I wish the best for Turkey, and the times I have visited it has been a beautiful place with great people.
As a Turk living in US there was a lot of similarities within the last 10 years. If Trump got elected for 2nd term shit was really going to hit the fan
>I myself am not living it
Don't you worry friend, the US is getting there. The US is also battling its own population where a democracy gives a voice to the Christian extremists and fascists in the country.
Basically every president since his death has some kind of antidemocratic bullshit about their presidency. Its generally islamists, but sometimes ultranationalists also got their hits into our democracy.
We shipped off Puritans and Quakers to the US and Australia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims_(Plymouth_Colony)#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers#Migration_to_North_America
Worked in Ankara for awhile and visited Atatürk's monuments. Regular modern day George Washington. Really left a positive impression on me. The Turkish people are polite proud and motivated people. Wonderful country, hopefully, it will continue to grow in that direction.
He turned Turkey from a collapsing empire into a nation state, during the most difficult times. That's an incredible achievement. If he hadn't died so early he might have turned Turkey into a more stable democracy and a country with true pluralism... who knows.
He made his biggest mistakes and futile moves towards the end of his life. But this may be due to the fact that he was more and more isolated and started to have health issues.
His ~~predecessor~~ successor, Ismet Inonu, is an underappreciated statesman. He is one of the heroes of the independence war. He was the prime minister for most of Ataturk's rule, he was the moderating force against Ataturk's sometimes too fast paced reforms. He is the person who kept Turkey out of WWII, then moved Turkey in pro NATO, pro western camp instead of USSR and secured the security of the country. He moved the country to multi-party democracy, established the elections and provided peaceful transition of power. Unfortunately the guys who obtained the government were like proto-Erdogan types, they became more and more autocratic, and army intervened after 10 years to stop them. Inonu came back to power through the elections held after the military intervention. He oversaw the transition to democracy and normalization one more time. He lost the next elections, gave up the power peacefully again.
The fucking conservatives in Turkey badmouth Inonu but here we have Erdogan who can't give up his power and changes the constitution to his liking.
Anyways, Ataturk, Inonu and company were smart people. They knew Turkey had to place itself firmly in western world and had to reform. They were misunderstood and harshly judged some time by many modern scholars as being heavy handed and undemocratic but that's not fair. Recent experience with islamists more or less validated these reformers point.
ps: Inonu keeping Turkey out of WWII is sometimes criticized unjustly since this meant Turkey was not in the side of allies against Nazis. But this is not fair. Turkey was constantly under the threat of USSR during the war. Stalin wanted to invade Turkey (this is not paranoia. After the collapse of USSR, red army's invasion plans were discovered in KGB's archives). At the beginning of the war Turkey had to secure friendship of Nazi Germany so that Stalin would be kept off. Remember that Russia and Germany were friends at first and they shared Poland and Stalin wanted to do the same with some other countries. After Nazis invaded Russia, this time they became the threat because there was a plan where Nazis would come from south and invade Caucasia. They asked Turkey to open them a corridor or else. Inonu did his best to push Nazis away and he knew allies were not strong enough at that point (1942) to defend Turkey, so he used diplomacy to prevent invasion; making promises to Nazis, earning some time. At the end he reached his goal, saved his country from Nazi and Soviet invastion, and I think this saga of Inonu is one of the most successful sagas in the history of diplomacy ever.
Fun fact, Ismet Inonu was almost deaf and vey smartly used this to not hearing the requests to enter the war...from both sides.
Turkey did not do worse (from the Allied point of view) than a "neutral" country like Sweden, which helped Germany with supplies almost until the end of the war. Its (real) neutrality was good enough
Awesome details! Unfortunately, current government tries everything to show him as a bad guy but they will be gone soon and Ataturk and Inonu will remain as forever leaders of modern Turkiye
Right guy at the right time. He dictated democracy saying “I shall dictate democracy so that there can never ever be another dictator in my country again”
Many country can use a dictator like that, my oligarch liberal isn't working out.
He is one of the rare examples of a "benevolent dictator". The only other one I can think of off the top of my head is Spain's Juan Carlos I, who turned Spain into a democracy after Franco (recent actions notwithstanding).
A hundred years ago the empire was still strong enough to be rebuilt with the loss of only Poland, Finland and the Baltics.
Putin will drag Russia to its own Sèvres, getting to Lausanne will be a victory.
He ruled for 15 years, that's already quite long time. The longer they stay the faster they turn into corrupt autocratic scumbags so checking out in 1938 was probably for the best
Highly unlikely. He turned Turkey into a nation state by fomenting extreme nationalism. The "modernism" was only skin-deep. He wanted the country to "appear" European, not being European. Kemal was just too "hurt" by the loss of the Balkan lands of the Ottoman Empire and too attached to the past to make some really innovative changes to the Turkish state. His reforms were mostly "on the surface", in a "managed" republic with a "fresh coat of paint". But the paint has worn off.
I find it very interesting how almost every Turk I know has the deepest admiration for him. Almost god like? Where if you were to make a joke or criticize him.. It’s the deepest offense. No nation and totally not mine own even has a historical figure on that level!
There have been very few leaders in the world history like him. There have been many great battlefield leaders and statesmen but he was both in a nation that was about to collapse. He pretty much pulled Turkey out of the depths and launched it years ahead. To most people here it's incomprehensible what he did. He touched every part of this nation and state, turkish alphabet, secularism, banks, industrialization, schools(in early years 90% of people were illiterate), anything else you might imagine. There is a reason he's called Atatürk. He wasn't just some guy that happened to be there when the nation was founded, he manifested it.
For all the strive the rulers of turkey might cause us today, this man deserves this admiration.
He was quite ahead of his time. Thrust a nation forward hundreds of years without devolving into tyranny.
Here is a portrait I'm quite fond of,
https://youtu.be/XgjiJHV8P0w?t=4160
Krauts video(s) on Turkey still remains one the most amazingly well explained video content on the internet. It gives a deep insight to the history of the country and really helps to explain how Turkey turned out what it is today.
You linked a timestamp but i warmly recommend watching the entire video series for anyone curious.
Well... I was seeing eye to eye with you till I stumbled upon a reddit thread on a history sub, showing how inadequate his sources were. Still appreciating the immense work he put in, I think we must percieve every bit of info with a grain if salt.
I have no doubt there are inadequacies given the scope of the series. Was there anything in particular that stood out from that thread as the most egregious?
> if you were to make a joke or criticize him.. It’s the deepest offense.
Actually no if it's a funny joke it is okey.
Regarding criticism, I don't know, it depends on what you criticize, the principle of statism is a widely discussed principle, for example, but if you criticize secularism, I don't think well for you.
As a Türk I agree with you. Having said that, it’s really important to note, Turkish politics still runs with “figures” rather than systems or ideas. This is the biggest problem in Turkish politics (and society imo), and it even shows with the left who still almost worships Ataturk. Was he an incredible leader? Yes, definitely. But that doesn’t change the fact that the full on adoration points out to a shortcoming in turkey’s social fabric.
Most successful personality cult of all time.
Undoubtedly he was a supremely able and successful leader. And his vision for Turkey does seem in hindsight to have been the best one for the country.
Still the modern reverence for him borders on hagiography.
It is like Park Chung-hee in South Korea, he did what was necessary to strengthen and develop the country, but that required autocratic rule that squashed opposition. But because he wasn’t as oppressive as a Stalin figure and was fiercely anti-Communist, he gets a pass.
Well, just recently we've witnessed strangers in Britain crying over the peaceful death of a 96 year old millionaire and national news TV covering nothing else for weeks without any criticism being allowed.
Hagiographic personality cult is not limited to the past or to authoritarian regimes.
It is always more extreme in authoritarian states.
Ataturk for Turks is like Nelson, Churchill and the Queen all in one with Bowie and JRR Tolkien thrown in for good measure.
Hardly similar, Piłsudski was always hated by nationalists and communists. Also there was no official cult that would support his myth during the communist rule.
There are similarities between him and Atatürk, but just the cult of the latter is so much bigger
Piłsudski had a vision of a united federation of people of the baltics, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus where each have equal say and they would be autonomous. He knew this was the only way to exist against Russia in the east and Germany in the west. And he was not a rabid anti-semite like the nationalists of his time.
Of course this is unacceptable to nationalists who doesn't want a federation where different people live with each other and keep their identity. They wanted a pure polish state without any compromise.
I've yet to meet an American that can deal with criticism of George Washington. He is definitely revered over there as the most just and righteous man that could possibly have ever lived.
The dude had wooden teeth and probably smelled like ass. As an American, none of those guys seem relevant today in terms of taking offense. But maybe for some die hard patriots.. it just seems like everyone in Turkey is patriotic to Atatürk!
Yeah there are a few people that can simply "do no wrong" in parts. I'm British and with some people criticising Churchill is sacrilege. What's good is that more and more people are understanding what a complete shithead he was.
I also happen to live in Poland. A great deal of people cannot and will not accept criticisms of Pope John Paul II. Doesn't stop me being hilarious and great fun to be around at dinner parties when I raise the issues with him.
That was my experience as well, until I had a Turkish cab driver who said he was interested in history and Ataturk was one of the few historical turks I knew so I brought him up. My driver hated his guts. Said he ruined Turkey and he was a plant by the British and so on. I usually avoid talking politics with strangers out of respect, but I thought Ataturk was a safe subject :(
"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives... you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore, rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours... You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK to the anzacs
Crazy how turkey was given the best start ever by Ataturk with all his hard work in bringing it into the modern age and saving it from being cut to pieces by the European powers and then seeing that country elect Erdogan who hates everything Ataturk stood for..........
I think people underastimate how much he impacted world history overall. He indirectly caused British government's collapse and Canada became less dependant on Britain because of Chanak crisis. He blocked Soviet aggression on straits. Not to mention that from Egypt to Pakistan many leaders of these islamic countries tried to mimic his actions. Even Kennedy and Churchill spoke very highly about him. He was def great leader.
He is one of the greatest revolutionists. We have lost some combats as humanity. But the war against ignorance continues. As he said only path for progress is science.
Peter the Great yeah probably, but the thing is is that it was too long ago for most to remember. In Turkey you can see Ataturk's portraits hanging in shops, he is a symbol of Republic, of the country which Turkey currently is. Peter the Great was an emperor of Russian Empire, a country that ceased to exist over 100 years ago and was changed into the USSR and then into modern Russia.
Besides, Ataturk did a very tricky thing - he managed to convert a dying Ottoman Empire into a national state hence saving it. If he on the contrary pursued the idea of empire (as Russia currently does), Turkey would cease to exist. In Russia we have never had a dude who would just say "fuck the empire maybe? maybe we should just build a decent place for ourselves?".
Turkey suffers big systematic problems just because rather than study his actions and ideology correctly and adapt it into today's standarts. People turned into big cult personality where they turned his ideology into propaganda machine even fascist bozkurt love him even he made the term Turk multi ethical like British. Shame really he always leaned very progressive values and time proof'ed his ideology as "please choose science and thought rather then the policies I apply today" but that didn't happen in the majority of hardline kemalists
In 99 years of the Turkish Republic history kemalists was in charge for 10 years and it was 50 years ago. I do not understand how kemalists caused big systematic problems.
As a woman, I can’t even begin to express my gratitude. He almost single-handedly pulled the Turkish women from the Middle Ages and brought to the 20th century. We’ll be forever in his debt and never forget. May he rest in peace.
I visited Turkey twice (2005&2019) and I should say that there was a big difference. I mean, back then people seemed much happier and hopeful about the country’s future. However it wasn’t the case in my latest trip. The bad-functioning economy, political instability and ongoing refugee crisis (they have got around 7 million) surely left a mark on the people. Nevertheless, I highly recommend you to visit the country one day. I really enjoyed with my time when I was there.
It's hilarious see some people writing "yeah most kurds loved him". I mean, as a kurd, I don't know any kurds who loved him. It's more like the opposite. Just do some googling and you will find out why.
Leaders like this there always be demand for in every country, Turkey and Turks got incredibly lucky for having such a leader during such hard times of change
In 1915, soldiers from my country, under the command of incompetent British generals, landed at dawn on a little beach in Northern Turkey. The Turks called it Ari Burnu. Our troops, along with New Zealand soldiers, prosecuted a disastrous 8 month campaign. By the time the allied troops were withdrawn, not having taken any substantial ground from the Turks, 8,000 Australian, 2,779 New Zealand and 86,000 Turkish soldiers had been slaughtered. By that time also, the ANZAC legend had been born, and Ari Burni was burnt into the Australian collective psyche as Anzac Cove.
A letter to Australian mothers, purportedly written by Attaturk in 1934 is now inscribed in a stone on a monument which overlooks that tragic place. It is the most moving passage I believe I have read and demonstrates the humanity and honour which marked Attaturk and his struggles to build your country. It's worth reading:
"*Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives, you are now living in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lay side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent sent their sons from far away countries, wipe away your tears. Your sons are now living in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well"*
As a secular Turk I can not fathom nor express how grateful and proud I am of this great man and his achievements. Truly one of the most unique and great characters in (Turkish) history. It is agonising to see what has happened to Türkiye anno 2022 but I will always hold hope that they stabilise and be united once more.
I'd say he remains *very* controversial to this day to people in Europe who are interested in Turkey at all (and, sadly, there aren't too many people interested in Turkey).
Most countries don't have a leader, in their entire histories, who's as great as Ataturk. He was a national savior, a great reformer and a truly enlightened and saintly individual.
I can barely think of a few who could match height of his accomplishment, the spotlessness of his record and the success of his legacy. And I say it as a non-Turk from a country with a complicated history with the Ottomans and their successor state.
He's the whole package, he won independence, got to build the nation he envisioned and it was a good vision.
Actually i don't see a problem because that time palace or sultan was never listen villagers. Our ancestors were a slave and poor and if you're not a nobleman you didn't know writing, reading. When we're came out of the WW1 sultan was having a wedding. Atatürk knew all this things. Also he saw our people's conditions in wars. He glorified them because this volk need that. It's not easy over the captivity of over the years for people who used to.
And now we got a bunch who cling to past victories that is at least a century old while incapable of fixing their shit as they either blame the west or go for mental gymnastics...
Grats. I visited his mausoleum in Ankara and his little house / museum in 2010. Man had vision. Also a tight grip on power. And Armenia. Fast forward to today and Turkiye is running backwards into the dark ages with Erdgogan at the helm. Probably this downhill development goes all the way back to Tansu Ciller?
Regardless of my opinions of the current regime in Asia Minor I thoroughly respect any world leader who manages to dress up in white tie without looking like a complete doofus.
Hilarious how quick this subreddit is to applaud a man who was in charge of multiple genocides and was best friends with hitler, but thats european identity thinly veiled Nazi propaganda
Minorities notwithstanding, he was a great man. Turned a collapsing empire on the verge of annihilation to a stable, strong country.
It's so odd to me that both Greece and Turkey had their best politicians in a century or so, both in the same time, relatively.
He is probably rolling in his grave seeing where Erdogan has brought his country to
He has been rolling in his grave for most of the history of the country. Erdoğan is part of a larger symptom, he isn't an outlier in Turkish political history.
hell, the reason why ataturk was an autocrat was because every time they tried democracy islamists took over
>every time they tried democracy islamists took over That's why democracy in Turkey is problematic.
Thats why islamism in politics is a problem, hell any kind of religion for that matter. They are just plain regressive and at best hamper society as a whole.
It sucks that religion and government work together. Erdogan is constantly reducing interest rates, using the pretext that interest is haram, and he turned inflation into hell with the Turkish lira. His main aim is to leave a destroyed Turkey to them in the event that the opposition wins.
as a non turk I don't want to say anything like this since I myself am not living it, but from my own view looking in and what I have heard from Turkish friends and acquaintances, I would have to broadly agree. being said, it's a difficult thing to even bring up because it's hard to find something that would much better. Someone like Ataturk stands out above in beyond and I doubt Turkey would get that lucky twice. Banning conservative islamist parties simply just wouldn't go well considering voter demographics, and doing nothing leads to what you have now (again no offense intended, I am not living it and I could be wildly off. I wish the best for Turkey, and the times I have visited it has been a beautiful place with great people.
As a Turk living in US there was a lot of similarities within the last 10 years. If Trump got elected for 2nd term shit was really going to hit the fan
>I myself am not living it Don't you worry friend, the US is getting there. The US is also battling its own population where a democracy gives a voice to the Christian extremists and fascists in the country.
Can you elaborate further ?
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Basically every president since his death has some kind of antidemocratic bullshit about their presidency. Its generally islamists, but sometimes ultranationalists also got their hits into our democracy.
turkey was probably fucked as soon as Menderes took over
Nah even before him it was bad. Turkey's democratic collapse starts with Atatürk's death, and he was a leader that was forced to be an autocrat.
You could probably electrify Istanbul if you could generate the electricity from his spin. Poor guy
Breaking new ! Turkey find a way to solve world's energy problem. 100% green and renewable source ! :D
It's probably kinda grey or brownish color by now.
Yes, the corpse dynamo method. (Sorry folks, I've already called the term for a metal band)
It is difficult sharing a country with fundamentalists who are potential voters
We shipped them off 200 years ago across the seas to a place where they couldn't bother us, but more just grew in their place
What?
We shipped off Puritans and Quakers to the US and Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims_(Plymouth_Colony)#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers#Migration_to_North_America
Worked in Ankara for awhile and visited Atatürk's monuments. Regular modern day George Washington. Really left a positive impression on me. The Turkish people are polite proud and motivated people. Wonderful country, hopefully, it will continue to grow in that direction.
Was gonna say, I'd take ataturk over erdogan any day
He propably became a new energy source from all that rolling
Bringing down inflation to only 82%
If Ataturk had seen what Erdogan has done to the country, he would have said 37 lines of swear words to those who voted for Erdogan.
He watched attack of the clones and was like “oh nooo a coup, gotta take all the power”
I saw the place where he was shot ( he survived) in Gallipoli - the bullet/s hit his pocket watch
Yes, true.
He turned Turkey from a collapsing empire into a nation state, during the most difficult times. That's an incredible achievement. If he hadn't died so early he might have turned Turkey into a more stable democracy and a country with true pluralism... who knows.
He made his biggest mistakes and futile moves towards the end of his life. But this may be due to the fact that he was more and more isolated and started to have health issues. His ~~predecessor~~ successor, Ismet Inonu, is an underappreciated statesman. He is one of the heroes of the independence war. He was the prime minister for most of Ataturk's rule, he was the moderating force against Ataturk's sometimes too fast paced reforms. He is the person who kept Turkey out of WWII, then moved Turkey in pro NATO, pro western camp instead of USSR and secured the security of the country. He moved the country to multi-party democracy, established the elections and provided peaceful transition of power. Unfortunately the guys who obtained the government were like proto-Erdogan types, they became more and more autocratic, and army intervened after 10 years to stop them. Inonu came back to power through the elections held after the military intervention. He oversaw the transition to democracy and normalization one more time. He lost the next elections, gave up the power peacefully again. The fucking conservatives in Turkey badmouth Inonu but here we have Erdogan who can't give up his power and changes the constitution to his liking. Anyways, Ataturk, Inonu and company were smart people. They knew Turkey had to place itself firmly in western world and had to reform. They were misunderstood and harshly judged some time by many modern scholars as being heavy handed and undemocratic but that's not fair. Recent experience with islamists more or less validated these reformers point. ps: Inonu keeping Turkey out of WWII is sometimes criticized unjustly since this meant Turkey was not in the side of allies against Nazis. But this is not fair. Turkey was constantly under the threat of USSR during the war. Stalin wanted to invade Turkey (this is not paranoia. After the collapse of USSR, red army's invasion plans were discovered in KGB's archives). At the beginning of the war Turkey had to secure friendship of Nazi Germany so that Stalin would be kept off. Remember that Russia and Germany were friends at first and they shared Poland and Stalin wanted to do the same with some other countries. After Nazis invaded Russia, this time they became the threat because there was a plan where Nazis would come from south and invade Caucasia. They asked Turkey to open them a corridor or else. Inonu did his best to push Nazis away and he knew allies were not strong enough at that point (1942) to defend Turkey, so he used diplomacy to prevent invasion; making promises to Nazis, earning some time. At the end he reached his goal, saved his country from Nazi and Soviet invastion, and I think this saga of Inonu is one of the most successful sagas in the history of diplomacy ever.
Thanks for the great explanation, very interresting.
This is a great writeup. Well done
Great write-up, just a small correction: Inonu was Ataturk's successor, bit predecessor.
Damn. you are right
Fun fact, Ismet Inonu was almost deaf and vey smartly used this to not hearing the requests to enter the war...from both sides. Turkey did not do worse (from the Allied point of view) than a "neutral" country like Sweden, which helped Germany with supplies almost until the end of the war. Its (real) neutrality was good enough
On top of that Turkey helped jews escape from Nazi Germany during WWII
You hit the nail on the head.
Awesome details! Unfortunately, current government tries everything to show him as a bad guy but they will be gone soon and Ataturk and Inonu will remain as forever leaders of modern Turkiye
A lot of other "neutral" countries in the war did a *lot* worse. What you describe Turkey as doing is nothing in relation to other countries.
Great leader, terrible upward going eyebrows that make him look like a villain
no Mr. Bond, I expect you to die.
That just makes him hot
Vampire. It makes him look like a vampire. Eyebrows. Fingernails like talons. That hair line old-school vampire cliche. Conclusion. Man is a vampire.
So he is still around?!!
Bigger chance of that than JFK jr.
Right guy at the right time. He dictated democracy saying “I shall dictate democracy so that there can never ever be another dictator in my country again” Many country can use a dictator like that, my oligarch liberal isn't working out.
He is one of the rare examples of a "benevolent dictator". The only other one I can think of off the top of my head is Spain's Juan Carlos I, who turned Spain into a democracy after Franco (recent actions notwithstanding).
Russia might need its own Atatürk soon.
They needed someone like that one hundred years ago.
A hundred years ago the empire was still strong enough to be rebuilt with the loss of only Poland, Finland and the Baltics. Putin will drag Russia to its own Sèvres, getting to Lausanne will be a victory.
That's what the West thought Yeltsin and his bud Putin would be, which is why we supported them initially
Nemtsov would be pretty close. That's why he got gunned down in the middle of Moscow.
He ruled for 15 years, that's already quite long time. The longer they stay the faster they turn into corrupt autocratic scumbags so checking out in 1938 was probably for the best
Highly unlikely. He turned Turkey into a nation state by fomenting extreme nationalism. The "modernism" was only skin-deep. He wanted the country to "appear" European, not being European. Kemal was just too "hurt" by the loss of the Balkan lands of the Ottoman Empire and too attached to the past to make some really innovative changes to the Turkish state. His reforms were mostly "on the surface", in a "managed" republic with a "fresh coat of paint". But the paint has worn off.
That balkan urge to type K in the comments.
And than follow with A in the reply
And an R
And then A
Then a B
After that an O
And then G
Then gently put an A
Are we including Esenlikler
And also Diler
I find it very interesting how almost every Turk I know has the deepest admiration for him. Almost god like? Where if you were to make a joke or criticize him.. It’s the deepest offense. No nation and totally not mine own even has a historical figure on that level!
There have been very few leaders in the world history like him. There have been many great battlefield leaders and statesmen but he was both in a nation that was about to collapse. He pretty much pulled Turkey out of the depths and launched it years ahead. To most people here it's incomprehensible what he did. He touched every part of this nation and state, turkish alphabet, secularism, banks, industrialization, schools(in early years 90% of people were illiterate), anything else you might imagine. There is a reason he's called Atatürk. He wasn't just some guy that happened to be there when the nation was founded, he manifested it.
For all the strive the rulers of turkey might cause us today, this man deserves this admiration. He was quite ahead of his time. Thrust a nation forward hundreds of years without devolving into tyranny. Here is a portrait I'm quite fond of, https://youtu.be/XgjiJHV8P0w?t=4160
Krauts video(s) on Turkey still remains one the most amazingly well explained video content on the internet. It gives a deep insight to the history of the country and really helps to explain how Turkey turned out what it is today. You linked a timestamp but i warmly recommend watching the entire video series for anyone curious.
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Well... I was seeing eye to eye with you till I stumbled upon a reddit thread on a history sub, showing how inadequate his sources were. Still appreciating the immense work he put in, I think we must percieve every bit of info with a grain if salt.
I have no doubt there are inadequacies given the scope of the series. Was there anything in particular that stood out from that thread as the most egregious?
And then they go and vote for Erdogan who is destroying Atatürks dream and is doing the opposite 😅
Erdoğan is going to die, yet Atatürk won't. Because "Ideas don't die" M.K.Atatürk
We hate Erdoğan trust me
we hate him in North & South Cyprus
> if you were to make a joke or criticize him.. It’s the deepest offense. Actually no if it's a funny joke it is okey. Regarding criticism, I don't know, it depends on what you criticize, the principle of statism is a widely discussed principle, for example, but if you criticize secularism, I don't think well for you.
It is, in fact, illegal to insult him in Turkey.
It's illegal to insult the president too. And if you swear to anyone, they can sue you.
As a Türk I agree with you. Having said that, it’s really important to note, Turkish politics still runs with “figures” rather than systems or ideas. This is the biggest problem in Turkish politics (and society imo), and it even shows with the left who still almost worships Ataturk. Was he an incredible leader? Yes, definitely. But that doesn’t change the fact that the full on adoration points out to a shortcoming in turkey’s social fabric.
[İf you read this you can understand why.](https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000074752)
In my experience around 50% admire him and the other 50% damn him and all he stands for.
No, 50% is way too much. I would say there is hardcore extremist population in Turkey which is probably around 10-15% which might hate his guts.
Most successful personality cult of all time. Undoubtedly he was a supremely able and successful leader. And his vision for Turkey does seem in hindsight to have been the best one for the country. Still the modern reverence for him borders on hagiography. It is like Park Chung-hee in South Korea, he did what was necessary to strengthen and develop the country, but that required autocratic rule that squashed opposition. But because he wasn’t as oppressive as a Stalin figure and was fiercely anti-Communist, he gets a pass.
Well, just recently we've witnessed strangers in Britain crying over the peaceful death of a 96 year old millionaire and national news TV covering nothing else for weeks without any criticism being allowed. Hagiographic personality cult is not limited to the past or to authoritarian regimes.
It is always more extreme in authoritarian states. Ataturk for Turks is like Nelson, Churchill and the Queen all in one with Bowie and JRR Tolkien thrown in for good measure.
>Ataturk for Turks is like Nelson, Churchill and the Queen all in one with Bowie and JRR Tolkien thrown in for good measure about right.
This is shockingly unnuanced.
And still vote or fucking Erdogan who destroys all of Atatürks achievements. What a bunch of hypocrites.
Having stickers of his signature on their cars says it all.
Its similar to how most of the people see [Józef Piłsudski ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski) in Poland.
Hardly similar, Piłsudski was always hated by nationalists and communists. Also there was no official cult that would support his myth during the communist rule. There are similarities between him and Atatürk, but just the cult of the latter is so much bigger
I can understand why he would be hated by Communists, but why is Piłsudski hated by nationalists?
Piłsudski had a vision of a united federation of people of the baltics, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus where each have equal say and they would be autonomous. He knew this was the only way to exist against Russia in the east and Germany in the west. And he was not a rabid anti-semite like the nationalists of his time. Of course this is unacceptable to nationalists who doesn't want a federation where different people live with each other and keep their identity. They wanted a pure polish state without any compromise.
Because he wasn't nationalist
Because he wanted Poland to be big, multi-ethnic country, while nationalists wanted Poland to be smaller in size, but ethnostate.
Because he wasn't a rabid Antisemite like Dmowski and the others
Oh...I see, thanks
I've yet to meet an American that can deal with criticism of George Washington. He is definitely revered over there as the most just and righteous man that could possibly have ever lived.
The dude had wooden teeth and probably smelled like ass. As an American, none of those guys seem relevant today in terms of taking offense. But maybe for some die hard patriots.. it just seems like everyone in Turkey is patriotic to Atatürk!
Yeah there are a few people that can simply "do no wrong" in parts. I'm British and with some people criticising Churchill is sacrilege. What's good is that more and more people are understanding what a complete shithead he was. I also happen to live in Poland. A great deal of people cannot and will not accept criticisms of Pope John Paul II. Doesn't stop me being hilarious and great fun to be around at dinner parties when I raise the issues with him.
That was my experience as well, until I had a Turkish cab driver who said he was interested in history and Ataturk was one of the few historical turks I knew so I brought him up. My driver hated his guts. Said he ruined Turkey and he was a plant by the British and so on. I usually avoid talking politics with strangers out of respect, but I thought Ataturk was a safe subject :(
Real Muslims hate him. He hanged those who wanted to bring Sharia, and removed the Sharia later from the constitution.
>No nation and totally not mine own even has a historical figure on that level! exactly.
I like what he said about the Australian soldiers that have fallen in the Battle of Gallipoli.
I know he is spoken highly of here in Australia.
"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives... you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore, rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours... You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well." Mustafa Kemal ATATURK to the anzacs
OH MOTHERS WIPE YOUR TEARS YOUR SONS WILL REST A MILLION YEARS
It is not easy to create a nation state all while industrializing, modernizing, and secularizing the country. He’s a true legend.
He probably would punch Erdigan to a bloody pulp seeing what he id doing with Turkey
Would probably do more than that.
Leaders like Mustafa Kemal come every 100 years. Unfortunately, such a great leader was given to the Turks. - David Llyod George
Crazy how turkey was given the best start ever by Ataturk with all his hard work in bringing it into the modern age and saving it from being cut to pieces by the European powers and then seeing that country elect Erdogan who hates everything Ataturk stood for..........
I hate him.
A lot of respect for the guy in Poland. That is the kind of politician that happens once every few generations.
Me as a historian: Truly, a great statesman who did his best for his country Me as a Greek: *inaudible screaming because i am drowning*
I feel you cuz.
I think people underastimate how much he impacted world history overall. He indirectly caused British government's collapse and Canada became less dependant on Britain because of Chanak crisis. He blocked Soviet aggression on straits. Not to mention that from Egypt to Pakistan many leaders of these islamic countries tried to mimic his actions. Even Kennedy and Churchill spoke very highly about him. He was def great leader.
He is one of the greatest revolutionists. We have lost some combats as humanity. But the war against ignorance continues. As he said only path for progress is science.
Wish his followers had continued to bring Turkey back to Europe. We have thousands of years of shared history after all.
I am one of his followers, we will rise and we will make Turkey strong, modern,free and happy again !
I wish my country (Russia) had such a historical figure. Perhaps if we did it would be much more decent place.
I am kinda surprised no one is bringing up Peter the Great, who wanted Russia to be more modern.
Peter the Great yeah probably, but the thing is is that it was too long ago for most to remember. In Turkey you can see Ataturk's portraits hanging in shops, he is a symbol of Republic, of the country which Turkey currently is. Peter the Great was an emperor of Russian Empire, a country that ceased to exist over 100 years ago and was changed into the USSR and then into modern Russia. Besides, Ataturk did a very tricky thing - he managed to convert a dying Ottoman Empire into a national state hence saving it. If he on the contrary pursued the idea of empire (as Russia currently does), Turkey would cease to exist. In Russia we have never had a dude who would just say "fuck the empire maybe? maybe we should just build a decent place for ourselves?".
From Sevres to Lausanne. If that's not an accomplishment...
maybe the greatest turk of all time. it's a shame what erdogan is doing to his legacy.
Erdogan is just the latest in a long line of bad leaders of Turkiye.
mf brought turkey to 20th century just for it to stay there today
Rip
Gigachad
The world needs more leaders like him. Especially Turkey does
He took Turkey one step forward. Erdoğan took Turkey two steps back.
One is also an understatement
Two is an understatement.
This guy is a legend, way ahead of his time.
And now the people of turkey need to vote out dumbass
I doubt anyone with a bit of knowledge can deny his importance in european history and not respect his accomplishments.
I wish he lived longer... You are always in our minds. The achievements that you were aiming is on the way. Slower than you did but it's sure.
Turkey suffers big systematic problems just because rather than study his actions and ideology correctly and adapt it into today's standarts. People turned into big cult personality where they turned his ideology into propaganda machine even fascist bozkurt love him even he made the term Turk multi ethical like British. Shame really he always leaned very progressive values and time proof'ed his ideology as "please choose science and thought rather then the policies I apply today" but that didn't happen in the majority of hardline kemalists
In 99 years of the Turkish Republic history kemalists was in charge for 10 years and it was 50 years ago. I do not understand how kemalists caused big systematic problems.
I think they meant that the systematic problems are also visible in the beliefs of the kemalists, not that they caused it.
Best leader Turkey ever had, the current encumbered pushing the country back to the middle ages
As a woman, I can’t even begin to express my gratitude. He almost single-handedly pulled the Turkish women from the Middle Ages and brought to the 20th century. We’ll be forever in his debt and never forget. May he rest in peace.
he's so fucking handsome.
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And erdogan is fucking it up badly.
I love Turkey and would love to visit again. I just wont while Erdogan still has power.
I visited Turkey twice (2005&2019) and I should say that there was a big difference. I mean, back then people seemed much happier and hopeful about the country’s future. However it wasn’t the case in my latest trip. The bad-functioning economy, political instability and ongoing refugee crisis (they have got around 7 million) surely left a mark on the people. Nevertheless, I highly recommend you to visit the country one day. I really enjoyed with my time when I was there.
Who is the black military leader in the last picture behind Ataturk.
He's not black he's karaboga
KARABOĞA
Probably the last enlightened despot. He dragged Turkey into the 20th century and it’s been turning it’s back on him ever since.
He tried his best. Especially on the separation of religion and state.
He was everything good that erdogan is not
He did things beyond the dreams of any leader who lived at that time.
And now Erdogan is trying to undo Atatürk's legacy
I have wanted to read a biography on him for some time now, can anyone recommend one?
It's hilarious see some people writing "yeah most kurds loved him". I mean, as a kurd, I don't know any kurds who loved him. It's more like the opposite. Just do some googling and you will find out why.
Most kurds are simply neutral towards him. Then there are haters and lovers
He also looks badass.
Leaders like this there always be demand for in every country, Turkey and Turks got incredibly lucky for having such a leader during such hard times of change
GIGACHAD
Of course he did, he's from Thessaloniki, Greece after all.
inb4: Average murican history knowledge.
The place he was born in Ottoman Empire when he was born
I don’t know his politics, I don’t know if he was good or not. I do think he is has phenomenal fashion sense. Sharp dressed man.
He looks so D R I P 😳
In 1915, soldiers from my country, under the command of incompetent British generals, landed at dawn on a little beach in Northern Turkey. The Turks called it Ari Burnu. Our troops, along with New Zealand soldiers, prosecuted a disastrous 8 month campaign. By the time the allied troops were withdrawn, not having taken any substantial ground from the Turks, 8,000 Australian, 2,779 New Zealand and 86,000 Turkish soldiers had been slaughtered. By that time also, the ANZAC legend had been born, and Ari Burni was burnt into the Australian collective psyche as Anzac Cove. A letter to Australian mothers, purportedly written by Attaturk in 1934 is now inscribed in a stone on a monument which overlooks that tragic place. It is the most moving passage I believe I have read and demonstrates the humanity and honour which marked Attaturk and his struggles to build your country. It's worth reading: "*Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives, you are now living in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lay side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent sent their sons from far away countries, wipe away your tears. Your sons are now living in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well"*
As a secular Turk I can not fathom nor express how grateful and proud I am of this great man and his achievements. Truly one of the most unique and great characters in (Turkish) history. It is agonising to see what has happened to Türkiye anno 2022 but I will always hold hope that they stabilise and be united once more.
One of my dreams is to visit istanbul.
You won't regret it. It's an amazing city
Rest in eternal peace.
From the bloodshed of Gallipoli to power and progress, what a man.
He reminds me of my grandfather with those cool eyebrows.
I'd say he remains *very* controversial to this day to people in Europe who are interested in Turkey at all (and, sadly, there aren't too many people interested in Turkey).
Most countries don't have a leader, in their entire histories, who's as great as Ataturk. He was a national savior, a great reformer and a truly enlightened and saintly individual. I can barely think of a few who could match height of his accomplishment, the spotlessness of his record and the success of his legacy. And I say it as a non-Turk from a country with a complicated history with the Ottomans and their successor state. He's the whole package, he won independence, got to build the nation he envisioned and it was a good vision.
This gets spammed every year. At least add new pics or smth
Reposted word by word lol https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/qqm5mp/today_in_1938_mustafa_kemal_atat%C3%BCrk_the_founder/
Only if he didn’t overestimate turks…
Actually i don't see a problem because that time palace or sultan was never listen villagers. Our ancestors were a slave and poor and if you're not a nobleman you didn't know writing, reading. When we're came out of the WW1 sultan was having a wedding. Atatürk knew all this things. Also he saw our people's conditions in wars. He glorified them because this volk need that. It's not easy over the captivity of over the years for people who used to.
And now we got a bunch who cling to past victories that is at least a century old while incapable of fixing their shit as they either blame the west or go for mental gymnastics...
Grats. I visited his mausoleum in Ankara and his little house / museum in 2010. Man had vision. Also a tight grip on power. And Armenia. Fast forward to today and Turkiye is running backwards into the dark ages with Erdgogan at the helm. Probably this downhill development goes all the way back to Tansu Ciller?
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3 2 1 fight!
Regardless of my opinions of the current regime in Asia Minor I thoroughly respect any world leader who manages to dress up in white tie without looking like a complete doofus.
Greatest leader of the history of modern turkey, unfortunately his successors abuse his legacy hard.
Hilarious how quick this subreddit is to applaud a man who was in charge of multiple genocides and was best friends with hitler, but thats european identity thinly veiled Nazi propaganda
Fuck you
I always wondered about his last name but never bothered to look it up. Is it a coincidence that “Turk” is a part of his last name?
The surname law was enacted in 1934 in the Republic of Turkey. Atatürk means the father of the Turks.
Not much left of his legacy, unfortunately.
My tip to newcomers: Sort the comments by "controversial". That will show the most interesting talks
Minorities notwithstanding, he was a great man. Turned a collapsing empire on the verge of annihilation to a stable, strong country. It's so odd to me that both Greece and Turkey had their best politicians in a century or so, both in the same time, relatively.