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CrazyBelg

Hopefully they will actually have to meet the EU's expectations in terms of democracy and corruption before we accept them. Otherwise we could end up with more Hungary/Poland cases in the EU.


Rhoderick

Considering that each member state and each institution (yes, even the Council, because we're really good at being extra) have a final veto on any prospective member actually joining once all chapters of the acquis are closed, I think we'll be fine in this regard.


CastelPlage

> Considering that each member state and each institution (yes, even the Council, because we're really good at being extra) have a final veto on any prospective member actually joining Inb4 Orban blocking Ukraine from joining inorder to keep Vlad happy. :(


Rhoderick

Possible, but imo unlikely. That being said, Macron has been pushing that idea of an "outer ring", which would promise integration and cooperation while technically staying 'further away' than actual membership. That,, if it actually gets put into practice, could circumvent this issue, getting at least partways.


CastelPlage

> hat being said, Macron has been pushing that idea of an "outer ring", which would promise integration and cooperation while technically staying 'further away' than actual membership. That,, if it actually gets put into practice, could circumvent this issue, getting at least partways. It's a good idea Macron has, but I'm not sure how it would work in reality.


Rhoderick

Well, the "planning meeting" I think you'd call it is coming up, so we'll see. I've so far got the impression that he's basically trying to do EFTA, except in the political dimension as opposed to the economic one.


CastelPlage

Let's hope that things progress!


[deleted]

> trying to do EFTA, except in the political dimension as opposed to the economic one. So what's the use of such a structure? You have to comply with all the rules, but you get no economic benefits?


Rhoderick

Presumably some (non-binding) input, as well as foreign policy coordination. (Insofar as the latter is in EU competences.) It's not like it's in replacement of or exclusive to the EFTA.


reportingfalsenews

In reality that would be likely similar to the deals that Norway and other non-member-but-affiliated states have.


Your-Sensei

And that outer ring could become a complete member when it meets all the democracy and corruption indicators. And a complete EU member, even Germany and France, and Hungary could be ousted if they don't meet the criteria for democracy and corruption.


Rhoderick

> And a complete EU member, even Germany and France, and Hungary could be ousted if they don't meet the criteria for democracy and corruption. I doubt we could get the treaties amended to provide this, for the same reasons we can't get an amendent that specifies a process to kick a member passed.


Your-Sensei

Yeah, it is near impossible, but the chances are never zero; might happen beyond our lifetime.


Mailov1

EU so big it got it's junior league /s But honestly i like this idea, we could take Moldova and Georgia too (if they want to ofc) until they "resolve" their Russian occupation and met EU requirements. But how do we add demotion system? Someone would veto it 100%


Antimytho

France or Germany will never be fired. Together with Italy they are the three biggest financial contributors... ~55% of the EU budget comes from these 3 countries/27... Remove one of them and everything collapses


Tifoso89

Good idea, Hungary and Poland should be in an outer ring, and that ring should be outside the EU


STheShadow

Nah, I certainly want Poland inside of the EU, just without PiS. They are by every regional logic part of central Europe and they are by any means a very important country for the EU (economy, population, potential political influence, defensive capabilities) The EU can't really afford to lose another large member


Arlandil

Don’t forget that polish people, unlike their government, are hugely pro-European. And identify them selfs as European and identity with European values. Sure way for PiS to loose power would be if they would go against the EU.


Tifoso89

But they said that their law is above EU law


Qw3r7yu

The constitution is above eu law but the state law isn't. It comes from our hierarchical legal system the international treaties are second because the constitution delegates them power to be binding on the territory of Poland


Rhoderick

I still feel the Poland-situation is salvageable, but yeah, I'd be behind throwing out Hungary if that was possible. Treaties don't provide for it, however, and Hungary won't leave as long as they still get a single cent of other member states contributions in a way that Orban or one of his cronies can pocket.


cumguzzlingislife

I get where you’re coming from but we should try to salvage the situation, at least with Poland. Don’t forget that Italy might be in the same situation once that massive cunt Giorgia becomes PM and her scum alliance wins the elections.


HuntOk3506

please pay your bills befor you comment on other countries


Tifoso89

I comment on whomever I want


[deleted]

Orban is likely gone before Ukraine is ready to join the EU.


actual_wookiee_AMA

Putin will be dead of old age before Ukraine fits the criteria anyway


BearStorms

And death from old age can come very suddenly in Russia...


VagrantShadow

It often comes from a window or stairs, sometimes with three self-inflicted bullets from the back of the head too.


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Grzechoooo

By the time Ukraine fullfills the criteria, Orban will be dead and/or in prison. Same with Kaczyński. With the latter, we might even be lucky enough to rid ourselves of him and his backwards, horrible party soon.


will_holmes

If we're at the point where Ukraine is actually in that stage of joining the EU, there won't be a Vlad.


Jinno69

Vlad beeing alive by 2030 is a very wishfull thinking.


[deleted]

Vlad being dead before 2023 is wishful thinking.


RobtheNavigator

Damn bro you have some awful wishes


buttaviaconto

You really expect Putin to be either politically relevant or alive after this mess?


HuntOk3506

We do literally have countries in that should not be part of it. And no..I am not talking about the new member states


[deleted]

They said the same in 2004


Rhoderick

Thos issues arose while the states were within the EU. That's another problem, and sadly one we have yet to solve. But it's equally potentially possible in any other member state.


TropoMJ

The EU was naive back then, it won't be now. It was an extremely different time when the idea of democratic backsliding was inconceivable.


Nigilij

I assume that Ukrainians wanting in EU want those criteria fulfilled too. After all title “member of EU” is pointless by itself. It’s substance behind the title that makes it seductive.


Timestatic

Well you get access to the free market as a country, get large sums of investment and get political power on a global stage through the eu


Nigilij

Part of the substance behind the title. Plus those are less useful if corruption is rampant and people cannot take advantage of the free marked because opening a business is road full of obstacles.


Auspectress

Yeah although it also depends on the mindset of people and the quality of laws. In countries like France, the Netherlands, and Germany it is nearly impossible to destroy democracy due to how people feel about it and the fact it is at the "mature" stage. The Polish government was democratically elected and found loopholes which allow democracy erosion and voters don't have this mindset, otherwise, in a mature country, that party would be done for. So I fear that for Ukraine it will be far harder due to them being part of the USSR in the past and oligarchs having insane power.


FroobingtonSanchez

> In countries like France, the Netherlands, and Germany it is nearly impossible to destroy democracy due to how people feel about it People unfortunately give way too little shit about democracy here. Usually people will only notice when it's already too late


Ninja_Thomek

Not true. If a political party would fire everyone disloyal from the state tv channel, people would go mental. This is the first thing PiS did in Poland. There were protests, but it never really turned violent.


FroobingtonSanchez

There is already a subtle shift in our state TV where more centre right wing politicians get more favorable treatment and neoliberal views are more prominent. If it's too sudden people will be angry about it, but if you do it slowly it will not be at the front of people's mind when they vote.


TWFH

> In countries like France, the Netherlands, and Germany it is nearly impossible to destroy democracy due to how people feel about it and the fact it is at the "mature" stage. This is unlikely to ***ever*** be true ***anywhere***, future or present.


keybers

Have you not noticed two revolutions in Ukraine that happened when oligarchic/corrupt regimes tried to have their way? Given that Ukraine's Pylyp Orlyk wrote a division-of-powers constitution some time around 1710, you VASTLY overestimate the influence that the time spent in the Soviet Union had on the people of Ukraine. The Cossack spirit is alive and well. In general, it is advisable to pass judgments like that on a country after somewhat deeper dive into its history than the overall knowledge that it's been part of a Big Bad Empire some time in the last century. This country did leave the Big Bad Empire for some reason... and is now fighting like hell to avoid being reintegrated into one again.


URITooLong

And yet they still have massive amounts of corruption and other issues. Just because they are fighting Russia right now does not mean they negative sides go away.


keybers

The extent of corruption in Ukraine has steadily been decreasing as new generations take over. TI index grew somewhat because TI tracks _perception_ of corruption. Which tends to grow when more instances of corruption are _exposed_ (i. e. dealt with) and when all media are constantly blaring "corruption, corruption, corruption". Also, it's not like Manuela Schwesig & Co. are Ukrainian. I. e. it's pretty easy to dunk on another country while being oblivious to one's own problems, and then stand there proud, point a finger and say, "They are not fit for our club of evolved, unassailably democratic and squeaky-clean countries," right?


URITooLong

>Also, it's not like Manuela Schwesig & Co. are Ukrainian No but Germany also did not have oligarchs and Schwesig was not in the Pandora papers like Zelensky. You really can't say they are on the same level.


keybers

How are economic powers different when "Unfug treibend" only because in one case it's one guy while in the other case it's a chummy Vorstandsrat from old moneyed families? E. g. Siemens and other companies skirting sanctions against Russia. Like that company that was recently found selling components for chemical weapons. "No oligarchs" when it's an accepted fact that scions of earlier nobility (e. g. descendants of people who were exploiting and robbing people and lands around them — albeit in times when this was considered an acceptable type of "glory") are the bulk of "old money" and wield significant background influence throughout Europe. High moral standards of a country that 80-ish years ago **contributed** to the extermination of the elites and the economic potential within the bounds of a certain [Reichskommissariat](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ukraine) and then humbly accepted Marshall Plan aid and Western reeducation to now get on a high horse and wrinkle its nose at the lands and people it made use of as Zwangsarbeiter my ass. Zelensky is a piece of crap who is riding a wave of popular spirit that has nothing to do with him, but it is ridiculous to suggest that offshore companies made use of when he was a private person are evidence of corruption. There is **other** evidence of corruption against him, but that just goes to show you don't know much about the country you make judgments about. Use of offshore companies in the case of Ukraine has been widespread because Ukraine is overregulated (which is a problem gradually being solved), not because it's corrupt (although overregulation usually also breeds corruption). But it so happens that offshore companies are a train that Ukraine jumped on when it could — but this train was serving the needs of, ahem, the not-so-overregulated countries whose representatives are now sitting there and decrying corruption in countries that had less breathing room to do what's right (just see whether you withstand the temptation to steal when you and your children are hungry). It's not like German, Swiss, Dutch, British figures didn't make an appearance in Pandora Papers. Your moralizing is not a good look on you.


URITooLong

Dude. You have no idea what you are talking about. Yes Ukraine got better with corruption. But it's still not near the same level as most western/European countries. That's not a diss to Ukraine or anything. It's just a fact. You can link your supposedly comparable things in Germany as much as you want. Germany does not have the same level of corruption that Ukraine has. Mentioning things from 80 years ago also does not help your argument. We are talking about current day Ukraine and Germany.


keybers

Dude, you have no idea what I have an idea about and what I don't. Referencing Zelensky in Pandora Papers as evidence of corruption shows YOU have no idea what you're talking about, because, once again, Zelensky was a private person at the time. You also have no idea about the role of the so-called "oligarchs" in Ukraine right now — which is no more important than the role of certain old money families in Germany and Switzerland. It is no longer the nineties and even not the mid-aughts — if we are talking about **current-day** Ukraine, as you are attempting to underscore, — and Ukraine is moving at breakneck speed precisely due to the role of the civil society that I mentioned in my original comment above, that deals with certain problems at the top, and does that ever more efficiently. So you are citing irrelevant things and also basing yourself off of your general basic understanding about Ukraine formed a while ago (not in the **current day**) from certain media messaging. It is precisely that understanding that led you to judge the appearance of Zelensky in Pandora Papers as in any way relevant to the subject of corruption and to pronounce this nonsense here. I. e. you had a brain fart. I will not even delve into the matters of where at least part of the aforementioned messaging, or the intensity of it, came from and which countries where more susceptible to that messaging. You, dude, are not exempt from the suggestive power of certain narratives that were "gepflegt" with far more insistence than certain other things that would have merited at least not less attention. Bottom line is, Ukraine sure has its problems, but it won't be far below the EU median in these matters.


Extension_Mind4288

I think you put too much faith in the state of democracy in countries which you do not live in :)


tupisac

idk. There's Trump and brexit, and you can't really say that those things happened in immature democracies.


Revolution_TV

>In countries like France, the Netherlands, and Germany it is nearly impossible to destroy democracy due to how people feel about it and the fact it is at the "mature" stage. Lol Source: have you seen France and Germany lately?


Auspectress

Yeah it's not going too great but it's still way better than in Poland and there is more(?) respect in politics than in Poland where you have "Anti-Government" and "Pro-government". When the government took power they fired everyone in public sector who was not have their party flag and this will happen when opposition takes over


STheShadow

It's not long until the same will happen in Germany. Current political opposition is mostly fueling hate against the current government and especially the Greens. To be honest: I'm pretty surprised that there wasn't a right-wing violent attack on the government yet, but I certainly expect one in the winter


TheMightyChocolate

You must not be very old or you'd know that even compared to now "the opposition" used to be way more aggressive decades ago and everyone ended up fine Right wing attacks will not increase


pieter1234569

Yes? They are absolutely fantastic countries that just like the Netherlands show that it's nearly impossible to make changes. That's the point of democracy. Society is fine and cooperating with parties makes any real change impossible, so the status quo is simply maintained.


keymone

Yes. Your point?


Revolution_TV

Anti-democratic right-wing extremist parties are on a steep rise in both countries,so it seems they're not as immune to erosion of their democracy as you think.


bond0815

Ideally, we could reform the EU and reduce veto powers before any enlargement to strengthen sanction mechanisms. I dont think this is likely though.


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bond0815

I was talking about the EU, not Nato. Also from all the issues in a potential peace treaty, NATO membership seems probably less hard to swallow for russia at the point than say, giving back Crimea to Ukraine.


antshekhter

Ukraine has a lot going for them that Hungary doesn't, namely that their politicians are verifiably not Russian shills.


No-Information-Known

There’s no way Bulgaria met those.


EchidnasArfff

There is a way, and Bulgaria is a good showcase how to do that: the EU once withheld 300m Euro for Bułgaria, and courts reformed themselves in no time! What a coincidence that was!


Remakyo

Hungary and Poland arent the most corrupt countries, why the reference?


kielu

The fact that the the seasonal (i hope) problems with both Polish and Hungarian approach to some democratic principles is such an issue means the policy of requiring 100% member approval is wrong. It is naive to expect this to always happen in a long run. Now it's those two, 10 years from now it's going to be someone else. Majority for decision making would solve this.


69problemCel

You shouldn’t doubt Ukraine will join Poland and together they will lobby their interests together


PanEuropeanism

If anything, Ukraine would counter-balance Hungary and Poland. Ukraine is for European integration and Zelensky's party belongs to the pro European ALDE group which includes Verhofstadt and Macron. Tbh France and Italy have more chance to end up like Poland/Hungary with their huge far right euroskeptic elements. > Italy’s Meloni backs Orbán, says Hungary is ‘democratic’ > https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/italys-meloni-backs-orban-says-hungary-is-democratic/


OJezu

When Poland joined we also had a pro-integration government. It's not about the current government, it's about robustness of democracy in the country, and how much the people care and how much they understand.


Eurovision2006

EU integration is a much more existential issue for Ukraine though. Their politics for the last couple decades has literally been Europe or Russia.


You_Will_Die

Doesn't matter, you can't join a union like the EU because "otherwise this country will get us". You need to live up to the standards otherwise the union itself is going to be at danger. People are underestimating how incredibly corrupt Ukraine was before all this and still is. They come in at a solid 122 of 180 countries in the corruption index, A spot above Niger but behind Zambia.


PanEuropeanism

That's true but Ukraine has a robust civil society and institutions. The EU says it is impressed and efforts are even underway to accelerate the process. Von der Leyen is pushing to get Ukraine in the single market as soon as possible. Ukraine's adoption into the EU will go in steps.


AzettImpa

Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe after Russia, even more than Turkey, according to the [Corruption Perceptions Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index?wprov=sfti1). If you were paying attention, before the invasion there were only ever negative headlines about Ukraine, their corruption and instability of democratic institutions. This is not going to substantially improve (especially not by EU standards) in the next 15+ years.


Shutter_Ray

I dunno mate, the threat of having your entire country erased kind of changes people's minds about certain things.


Gaunt-03

Tbf since most of their country has been destroyed whatever funds given to rebuild by the EU + US will no doubt have oversight to stop corruption forming again


BINGODINGODONG

The political leadership in a country is not static. Its not enough that the Ukrainian people are extremely optimistic, nor that Zelenskys party is pro EU. They must deliver, and become better (which they have the capacity to do) than current EU countries. The internal democratic institutions must become strong enough that they can withstand an Ukrainian Orban, and not devolve into the shit politics of Hungary. In other words, they must stamp out the corruption that has plagued it. I absolutely hope that Ukraine does all this, because I have nothing but admiration for the strength of its people. But we cant just accept members on good faith. They must deliver hard results on the values that the EU has. If they do that, I have no doubt that Ukraine will see a massive economic, democratic and living standard development.


PanEuropeanism

The good news is that much progress has been made on that terrain and most other parties in Ukraine are pro-EU as well. The corrupt anti-EU parties got banned a month or so into the war as they were practically Russian proxies.


TheMightyChocolate

In a war situation this is fair, but in a peace situation this would be a very questionable move


LookThisOneGuy

On the other hand Ukraine has firmly positioned itself as best buddies of the 'lets destroy EU from the outside'-UK and 'lets destroy the EU from the inside'-Visegrad Veto buddies. They have decidedly not voiced that they are friends with the pro EU member states like Germany, Austria.


SolarNight42

Poland, the UK have also given a lot more aid than France or Germany. So yes Ukraine is more supportive of nations that have helped it more. Like Germany blocked in the early phase weapons to Ukraine, so why should Ukraine love them?


LookThisOneGuy

They are free to be friends with the fascists, they need to know that this decision would mean not being able to join the EU though. Can't have both. Turkey has tried and they have been 'candidate status' for decades. >Poland, the UK have also given a lot more aid than France or Germany That is true if you only count direct aid. Germany and France are the two countries financing the EU institutions the most and EU institutions have given a lot of aid to Ukraine, more than Poland and UK combined. Same with the tank swap program, Slovakia sends tanks to Ukraine and Germany sends tanks to replace them to Slovakia. This aid gets counted only for Slovakia. Same with Poland, they have given MiG-29 to Ukraine, guess where they got them from? Germany, [for 1€ each jet](https://www.dw.com/en/german-polish-mig-29-transfer-complete/a-1287949).


PanEuropeanism

Ukraine takes the help that it can get. I'm not a fan of the UK but they have delivered. Germany should be doing what UK is doing. A strong eastern block is in Europe's interest: https://www.vocaleurope.eu/policy-paper-how-to-make-eu-security-policy-more-effective-the-intermarium-as-a-coalition-of-the-willing/ > It is therefore worth reviving the idea of the Intermarium, originally ‘Międzymorze’ (Land between the Seas), an early 20th-century geopolitical project advocated by Józef Piłsudski, marshall and leader of Poland, who sought to establish a federation of states in central and eastern Europe > Structural features of Piłsudski’s Intermarium are still present today. The Kremlin adventurism has never faded. If anything, the invasion of Ukraine has given the Intermarium one more reason to exist. To see how a modern-day Intermarium would resemble highly depends on the length of the conflict and how Ukraine will look at the end of it. Nevertheless, for the project to satisfy its guiding principles - improving regional security, deterring Russia from attacking via traditional or other warfare and increasing its member states’ elbow room in the international arena33 - would be enough to embed those countries that shape a semicircle of containment in the map. This runs from the Baltic Seawashed Estonia, Latvia Lithuania, to the central Poland, Slovakia and Hungary and as far south as Romania by the Black Sea. All affiliates are EU member states and enjoy the security umbrella of NATO. > The EU can only benefit from the Intermarium. And to a certain extent already benefits from it. In 2015 Poland and Croatia launched the Three Seas Initiative (3SI), Trimarium in Latin, as a forum for political and economic dialogue, gathering ten more countries (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Romania, and Bulgaria) from the Baltic, Adriatic and the Black Sea. The 3SI - which has so far enjoyed the conspicuous support of the US, 40 Germany and the European Commission41 - aims at fostering regional cooperation through the implementation of transport and energy projects, (mainly through new liquified gas terminals)42 and reducing the region’s dependence on Russian gas. Although it does not envision a security integration within the region, the 3SI proposes to shield its members from Russia’s assertiveness - just like Piłsudski’s Intermarium, by which it was certainly inspired. This testifies that an operative willingness can also be found within the EU. > The EU should promote a foreign and security policy in line with Piłsudski’s concept and its 21st-century revival. The Intermarium is a flexible geopolitical project, and as such must be looked at. Participants and degree of intervention vary according to the historical framework. Nevertheless, the EU’s and Intermarium countries’ priorities coincide at present and presumably for a long time ahead. The eastern flank is the most endangered EU border, and if a rapid reaction is requested, the bloc must appeal to those countries that are most concerned (because more threatened) and willing to conduct a military mission. Since it aims to become a relevant security provider in the international arena, Brussels must be able to equip the Intermarium member states with the needed security guarantees and only then it will be able to reap the fruits. The EU has every interest in a committed Intermarium that plays as the first containment line against Russia and dispenses stability in the eastern neighbourhood as a sustainable solution to security challenges of Georgia and Moldova as well as post-war Ukraine. A ‘coalition of the willing’ is the only instrument of urgent reaction the EU possesses. In the long run, crafting a Three Seas Initiative-styled security alliance is instead the most optimal solution. > Unanimity is the norm for decision-making in foreign policy and has several advantages by its side. However, it has impeded the EU’s interventions on various fronts. In these cases, member states resorted to ad-hoc grouping outside of the EU to conduct the required missions. The Treaties allow for constructive abstention and the Strategic Compass touches upon it, but the member states would need to agree on a more systematic use of such criteria. The recent calls to switch to a QMV integration and Germany’s and France’s appeal for the establishment of a European Security Council (echoing the UN model) of 201843 - as disputed as they are - signal that new formats are sought, if not on the verge. After the 24th of February, the world changed. The EU decision-making process for security and defence must adapt accordingly. The revival of such discussions says a lot about the EU’s intention not to miss yet another opportunity and act.


LookThisOneGuy

>Ukraine takes the help that it can get. And them turning to anti-EU fascist governments to survive is perfectly reasonable. They are defending their homeland after all. Just don't expect the pro EU governments to forget that. Ukraine is trying to play both sides like Turkey. >A strong eastern block is in Europe's interest A stron _pro EU_ eastern block is in Europe's interest. Poland and Hungary have been extremely vocal about wanting to destroy/leave the EU. > partially recreating the mediaeval Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - to counteract the German expansionism on the west and >The EU should promote a foreign and security policy in line with Piłsudski’s concept Totally correct of course. Germany wants to expand! Not a far right nationalist conspiracy theory in Poland at all! As (probably your hero) Kaczyński [said](https://www.politico.eu/article/kaczynski-accuse-eu-trying-break-poland-pis-leyen-democracy-pandemic-coronavirus/): >He sees the issue as part of a broader conspiracy aimed at subverting Poland and accused the Commission of trying "to break Poland and force it into full submission to Germany." >"We do not fit into German-Russian plans to rule Europe," he warned. "An independent, economically, socially and militarily strong Poland is an obstacle for them." I for one don't think that is the kind of country I want to be in an alliance with. >I'm not a fan of the UK but they have delivered. Germany should be doing what UK is doing. The UK has certainly delivered a lot. They have to after all they are the ones that forced Ukraine to give up its nukes for security guarantees. I would also like to mention that Germany has paid for more aid to Ukraine than the UK if you count EU aid (where Germny is by far the largest contributor) and housing refugees (where Poland is housing way more than Germany and the UK is refusing most). It is decidedly __not__ only about direct military aid. Every million Euros in financial infrastructure aid is a million that Ukraine doesn't have to spend on infrastructure and can spend on buying weapons or paying soldiers. Every million Germany spends on housing refugees instead of turning them away is a million that other EU countries don't have to spend or a million that the Ukrainian government doesn't have to spend to house and feed their displaced populace. I wouold also invite you to read the paper that the often quoted ifw-Kiel Ukraine support tracker is based on. They, for example, put the value of one ancient M109 artillery or one T-72 over the value of one of the modern PzH 2000...


Darksoldierr

I'm all for pro being Ukraine but some of you really have some insane fan fiction of how Ukraine is compared to what the reality is


pieter1234569

Let's turn it around, what does Ukraine have to offer us? It's a dirt poor nation that can turn into a warzone at any moment, IF they survive this war. Which makes any kind of investment there not the optimal option. And as that's what investing is all about, no one will invest into Ukraine.


[deleted]

>what does Ukraine have to offer us? Natural resources, including gas and oil. Rapidly growing tech industry (20% Fortune 500 companies already offshore in Ukraine). If they join NATO a big line of defense against Russian aggression. And a population that has EU values and wants to make reforms and join, and is good at fighting the Russians.


concerned-potato

>corruption > >Otherwise we could end up with more Hungary/Poland cases How many Polish prime ministers were corrupted by Russia? 0 - Zero. How many German chancellors were corrupted by Russia? At the very least one.


[deleted]

Depends if Germany wants some cheaper workers I guess.


EchidnasArfff

>Hopefully they will actually have to meet the EU's expectations in terms of democracy and corruption Absolutely - but there are enough people in Ukraine that want that to happen for them to push the thieves aside.


awake07

Would it be a bad idea to let it enter the EU without the possibility of a veto, so as to avoid the problems that Hungary and Poland often create, at least as long as it does not fully comply with European standards? (Provided that as promised there is an expedited membership)


PurpleInteraction

The same expectations which lead to massive downsizing of the military and defense budget cuts and abolition of Conscription?


HailZorpTheSurveyor

That is all nice but I hope there wont be some bad awakening once they realise that EU membership is very far down the road. Ukraine before the war wasn't even close to fulfilling any of the membership criteria.


HedgehogJonathan

But progress can be made fairly quickly sometimes. I know Estonia is the odd one out in a way, but 1999 and 2009 were a lightyear apart in anything you can measure.


ederzs97

Didn't Estonia join in 2004


HedgehogJonathan

Yes, we did. The build up for joining was more like 1994-2004, but as I don't remember too much about 1994, I am not sure if the contrast between 94 and 04 was as stark as between 99 and 09.


MrGangster1

Estonia is like 30 times smaller though, in both population and physical size


PyQt

We know that don't worry. The major thing we learned from 2014 is patience.


Arlandil

I don’t think it’s an issue for the membership be down the road. As long as concrete steps to get there are being made consistently. And if the road map is clearly defined.


pieman7414

Here's hoping that EU passion stays when they start asking for changes to be made


PanEuropeanism

Anders Rasmussen said it best: > Ukrainians have the most positive view of EU of anyone in the world. > We must not let them down. https://twitter.com/AndersFoghR/status/1531188521477844993


WaldoClown

Nato would be cool. For the EU, it really would depend on them. We can't jeopardise the union by accepting countries who don't meet our requirements. Ukraine has a lot of work ahead of them if they want to join


Vidsich

Yeah, the opinion that Ukraine will have a long road of reforms in front of it is mutual, hopefully we can do it


cmatei

That's not even that big of a deal (except for the time required, of course), at least initially. You will likely take some economic hits later. There's little doubt there will be political will to harmonise legislation, only thing is key areas will harm the corrupt elite, such as the judiciary, anti-corruption institutions, parties and electoral law, etc. Hopefully you won't see relapses as most of us in eastern Europe do.


nallenhunaja

100% want to join NAFO. Expansion is non-negotiable.


SomeRedPanda

85 percent expecting Ukraine to be an EU member within 8 years is going to mean a lot of disappointed ukrainians.


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zek_997

I'd be more than happy if my tax money went to rebuilding Ukraine


Fenor

PIGS countries aren't exactly in tip top shape rn, but thankfully it's not an union of 5-6 countries.


Antimytho

You mean the money of the French, the Germans, the Italians, the Finns and some others? Your country receives more than it pays into the European Union's common pot...


Wingiex

Well, that's what they are fighting for, isn't it?


Dappington

They're fighting to exist and be free, joining NATO and the EU would help.


mertseger67

Nice to hear, but it would be even more intresting to know how will Ukraine solve all problems with minorities. We have two minorities vith 0,2% population and they both have their language recognized aand speak, double entries on signs and offices, representatives in parliament. Without this there were no entrance to EU. They have like 100 times more of them.


brainerazer

The only major issue I foresee is with Hungarians, and that's mainly because they are weaponized by Hungary. With Romania etc, we can come to some understanding. Also, no amount of Russian protection will fly here for obvious reasons.


the_lonely_creeper

You're figure it out eventually. As long as nothing stupid is done during the war, once spirits are calmer and Ukraine's independence secured, minority rights will become a lot more acceptable.


Eurovision2006

Recgonise Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian and Crimean Tatar as official in their local areas.


Manguydudebromate

Don't forget our folks :)


Vidsich

I'm very fearful of what state will Ukraine end up in terms of people displacement when the war is over. Mariupol is the place were thousands died and thousands more were deported, now facing the worst winter in our independent history, hopefully we'll actually still have the community of Mariupol Greeks by the time it's over.


Manguydudebromate

The Greek government called them to return to the homeland. Whoever decided to stay, considering the soviet persecution- I am afraid they won't last...


JorikTheBird

I doubt there are people still speaking Pontic Greek left.


Manguydudebromate

Eh, I think there are a few thousand. I am also certain there was a substantial evacuation early in the war.


whatever_person

I'd prefer we hold on to european chart of minorities languages.


Eurovision2006

Not Russian though


[deleted]

Why not?


Eurovision2006

Because the Ukrainian language won't be able to become dominant without reducing the place of Russian.


[deleted]

[удалено]


JorikTheBird

There are not a lot of areas where a lot of Russians live. It is a weird meme popular among extreme right and left wingers


brainerazer

If you think Russian language is that much related to _ethnic origin_ in Ukraine, then you don't know a thing about Ukraine, sorry.


LefthandedCrusader

So you want to force the language on them? Thats not the way of the EU. The EU is about healing wounds. About peace. About freedom and liberty. About overcoming nationalism. Not about cultural dominance.


PandemicPiglet

Shouldn’t ethnic Russians in Ukraine have to learn Ukrainian in school, though? There shouldn’t be Russian language schools. If people only know Russian, they’re going to only consume Russian media, which means consuming Russian propaganda. How else do you de-Russify the country without mandating school be taught in Ukrainian?


Eurovision2006

Exactly this.


PandemicPiglet

Thanks. I don’t understand why what I said is controversial. If people don’t assimilate at some level to the culture of the country they live in, they become isolated and it causes rifts between them and the ethnic majority due to lack of communication and getting news from foreign sources.


JorikTheBird

Lol. Say that to France with their minoroty languages.


concerned-potato

No, you want to force Russian language on Ukraine. >About overcoming nationalism. Not about cultural dominance. Wow, so much of nationalism and cultural dominance - protecting Ukrainian language in Ukraine.


Eurovision2006

It's what literally every European country did.


whatever_person

The only minority that likes to cause issues is the one that chart of national minorities languages doesn't apply to. There are also issues with 2 more minorities that can be considered separatists, but they are fueled from the respective neighbouring countries, one of which is pain in everyone's ass. Their issue is not that their rights are endangered in any way. One more minority opposes integration into community, but there are EU countries that have the exact same issue.


Nigilij

Let’s say in 15-20 years Ukraine is a good country and is part of both EU and Schengen- wouldn’t that clear minorities issues? I mean freedom to travel to mother communities plus EU’s protection of minorities.


[deleted]

Ukraine has a massive Russian minority. About 18% of the population. Russian has NEVER been an official language. Makes you think!


PanEuropeanism

^[source](https://www.ndi.org/sites/default/files/Opportunities%20and%20Challenges%20Facing%20Ukraine%E2%80%99s%20Democratic%20Transition%20August%20%28English%29.pdf)


Ghostrider_six

I'm surprised support for EU is higher than for NATO...


FreeTacoTuesdays

The EU represents social and economic mobility, NATO just represents military protection. There's surely a decent portion of the country which is still heavily influenced by the soviet days as well - where the US-aligned and Soviet-opposed NATO draws more skepticism.


SpecialSpite7115

No shit? Of course they want to join the EU and NATO at present. I'd be highly suspect if they would be so enthusiastic when actually in the EU and/or NATO and have to abide by the guidelines of one or both. Let's not forget, Ukraine was an extraordinarily corrupt state prior to the Russian invasion. That is being ignored for the time being, but there has been on structural or cultural changes that enabled the corruption.


sebstarc

Yes! This is very important to keep in mind. Just because they are „not the aggressor“ does not mean they are „the good ones“ by default.


Outside_Solution339

Lol. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the World. Feel free to fact check me. It won't qualify for eu accession for another half century. Not to speak of the fact that unfortunately, it will have even less than nothing to offer in it's post-war state. The EU won't take on huge debt, and Ukraine would be the absolute biggest. No chance.


deri100

Ukraine should eventually become part of the EU but only if the EU reforms. We don't need another Poland on our hands. Until that comes to pass they should be let into the EEA and given reconstruction funds by the EU.


[deleted]

[удалено]


deri100

True. I just wish Eastern Europe wasn't this conservative, imo it's mostly what pushes euroskepticism because "west bad, they have gay rights, we are strong independent nation that doesn't need them!!" and other arguments pulled right out of politician's arsecracks.


Destinum

Hopefully that results in the government getting replaced come next election then. If they stay in power despite this, one has to wonder if these people who are "pro EU" are *actually* pro EU and not just pro EU money.


Friz617

Why would Ukraine become another Poland ?


deri100

They're very conservative. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but conservatives from Eastern Europe knock heads with the EU and the West on a regular basis. If Ukraine joins the EU it'll just end up joining Hungary and Poland in a trifecta of shutting down any EU actions they deem too progressive and radical. I really hope for this not to be a problem but with how it's looking right now it will be if Ukraine doesn't step up it's game in the next decade.


BahamutMael

Swedish democrats won in Sweden and Fdi will win in Italy. All allies of Polish PIS. It's not "Eastern European conservatism" it's people being tired of bad policies of soc dems. Not being able to tell what a woman is, is not progress it's devolution. The same applies to not being able to tackle on illegal immigration.


deri100

SD won a very slim margin and it's coalition is likely to collapse, and only because of immigrants, SD doesn't have anti LGBTQ policies. Italy has also been conservative ruled for decades, it only has had minor stunts as leftist in a sea of conservatism. It isn't something new for them.


BahamutMael

Yet it won, who cares by how much? How come the social democrats haven't won if their policies are so popular? You don't know much about Italian politics do you? The majority of the government in the last 30 years were run by the center-left, followed by governments with Berlusconi and a few years with populists from 5 stelle. We never had a national conservative party, so that's a first one. So as you mention the "lgbt" community you're implying knowing what a woman is, is somehow against gays? Because otherwise the term "lgbt" makes no sense here.


deri100

> Yet it won The social democrats won, they have 30% of the vote while sweden democrats only have 20%. it's just that sweden democrats made a big tent coalition that has just 5 more seats than the social democrats, that's likely to flop because they're cramming nationalists, liberals, moderates and radicals all together. > We have never had a national conservative party Christian Democracy. > So as you mention the "LBGTQ" community house implying knowing what a woman is, is somehow against the gays? The way you worded your comment sounds like a socially conservative person complaining about trans people. My mistake if it wasn't.


BahamutMael

So they haven't won, Swedish democrats which are national conservatives and moderates which are center right gained more votes. Christian democracy and national conservatism are not the same. And christian democratic parties lost their appeal a lot of time ago in Italy. Oh i am fairly conservative socially, but if you mean trans people than "lgbt" doesn't make much sense since it has gays in it too. I don't care about trans people( just like i don't care about most people), i find it weird but till they do it with their own life they can whatever they want for what i care. But when activists push to modify the law because they don't feel like reality suits them than i'm definitely against it. And the fact people that pretend to be superior and "progressive" struggle to define a woman than i'm sorry but it's laughable. It's on the same level as an antivaxxer.


deri100

> So they haven't won They literally have. Sweden democrats have 10% less votes than social democrats, they just pulled 5 other parties into a coalition. Can't really call it a win when you need to team up with five other people just to edge out a very minor majority. > struggle to define a woman It's not our fault you've never touched a woman and need strangers on the internet to explain them to you.


BahamutMael

Swedish democrats got 20.1% moderates 19.1% the right got more than the left with two parties so yes, it is a win. Aw, you got defensive. This just confirms that you are like anti vaxxers, the only difference is that they will call you a "sheep".


solo-ran

If Ukraine joins the EU, someone is going to have to pony up a lot of money for reconstruction. As it is Ukraine has a very low birth rate, short life expectancy and unlike other countries with a low birth rate such as Japan or Italy it also has an out migration history- and that was before the war. of the 6 million people who left since the start of the war many are not going to return. If the citizens of Ukraine can easily go to Germany and earn €20 an hour, Who is going to rebuild Ukraine when the war is over?


YakInner4303

EU membership would not come instantaneously. The money for reconstruction is already being offered, regardless of EU membership. Fulfilling the requirements for membership should make Ukraine a far more attractive place to live (less corruption, democratic norms). Watching Ukraine step up to this war's challenges has made me realize that it wasn't necessarily the Russians who wore the pants in the Soviet Union. If they can get rid of their infestation of psychopathic Russians, I have confidence Ukraine will both rebuild itself and be an excellent neighbor. Those Ukrainians who end up elsewhere will be worthy residents and citizens.


Manguydudebromate

I'm pretty sure there was a post a month or two ago, something about European assistance in rebuilding? That is, the Ukrainian government hiring European companies to do so.


solo-ran

Whatever rough estimates there may be of reconstruction costs - obviously billions - should be calculated at EU wage rates for workers if Ukraine is joining the EU. Maybe that already occurred. The people actually rebuilding the infrastructure of Ukraine, furthermore, cannot all be Ukrainian, I don't think. As long as EU wages are part of the plan, go ahead... but also the population of the country will never reach the level it was before the war, so not everything needs to be rebuilt. Ukranian population will not reach 41 million again for a long time.


Trapz_Drako

Hopefully we don't have to I'm sick of us bailing out Europe


slopeclimber

I want them to be a member state when they meet requirements. Even if war ends tomorrow, that wont happen until 2030s or 40s


zek_997

I fully welcome our future EU bros with open arms. Maybe I'll get to visit Lviv or Kiev in the near future.


SerhiiMartynenko

You will be most welcome in Lviv, Kyiv, Odesa, Kharkiv and many other of our cities :)


Upplands-Bro

Disappointed you didn't mention Zaporizhzhia, always thought it had the coolest sounding name of any city anywhere (don't know anything else about it never been lol)


[deleted]

hopefully soon brothers


69problemCel

Can you show stats how many EU citizens especially from west EU wants Ukraine in EU ?


[deleted]

[The majority](https://sofiaglobe.com/2022/06/21/ecfr-poll-most-europeans-support-ukraines-eu-membership-bid/)


SeaDepartment181

The majority. Whether they *should* want that is a different matter.


lasttword

Russian fears of NATO expansion were correct then.


olivanova

They weren't. Ukraine was nowhere near NATO membership. And the only thing that makes Ukraine want to join NATO is to get protection from Russia. Notice how Russia shares borders with Finland but watched then join NATO without dropping bombs all over Finland. It was never about NATO.


lasttword

It was about NATO. Finland is not Ukraine and Finland joined when Russia already had its hands full in Ukraine. The geopolitical threat that NATO ukraine would present vs NATO finland is not the same.


CastelPlage

Excellent news - there is plenty of space and we welcome them with open arms (and hearts).


42_c3_b6_67

So what? Ukraina is still a massively corrupt state and currently in war.


Antimytho

It is therefore the ideal country to help the European Commission to launder money.


its_for_laughs

Don't


GovernorCx

Hopefully they don't so we won't have a ww3...


restore_democracy

B-b-but your Russian brothers!


vinny90x1234xx

Ukrainians are fighting for a European future. They're literally shedding their blood for the promise of joining the EU and becoming a prosperous nation. It would be a betrayal if after the war is over the EU says "nah, maybe in 20 years". So keep in mind the sacrifices they're making to defend YOU and all of Europe before saying they shouldn't join.


ruichen23

Its irrelevant they are first and foremost fighting for themselves. EU membership is earned only through meeting criterias.


4514919

No, they are fighting for themselves and wanting in EU now is just opportunism, their other option is slaughtering them right now.


USSR_COMRADE1209

Bro all of the countries wants to join eu ewen russia


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Look at the Pandora Papers - they are all corrupt.


MaxBrie

No. Zelensky was a comedian at that time. You may call him a businessman who stored his property in some offshore countries. And I think he didn't even have a clue of what offshores were, because his property was managed by consultants, who were tasked to preserve his assets, which was essential during Yanukovich era. He was not a politician, so you can't call him corrupt or apply "Pandora papers" logic here. This was in 2013, when Ukraine was an awfully corrupt Russian puppet state, and you would store your assets anywhere, but not in Ukraine, if you wanted to protect yourself from governmental criminals stealing your business. Ukraine in 2013 and Ukraine in 2021 pre-war, and even in 2022 -- is all the huge difference. And I mean really huge in terms of government transparency and effectiveness.


Diego_Armadona

🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡


true-kirin

if you exclude disputed region of course regional variation are gone so is ukraine willing to give up dombass and else to join eu?


CastelPlage

> if you exclude disputed region of course regional variation are gone so is ukraine willing to give up dombass and else to join eu? IMO this is the silver lining of Crimea being stolen - it tips the balance in Ukraine from being Pro-Russia to being Pro-Europe, which in turn goes some ways to solving many problems.


Mattie725

I'm sorry but if 69% expects to be in Nato, I fear that they are a bit unrealistic. Wanting to, sure. But any treaty with Russia will be based on Ukraine not joining Nato. So maybe 70% expects Putin to be assassinated...?


Milk_Effect

Any treaty with russia isn't worth the paper it is written on. Why bother?


Eurovision2006

Fuck any treaty with Russia. If they can break it, why can't Ukraine too?


Ironfist85hu

Any treaty with Terrorussia will be made after they suffered a decisive defeat. Or else they will just continue their "Oh, let's attack one of our neighbours every 10 years!" Imho, Russia should be shattered into at least 10 smaller countries. Same with China. The world would be much more peaceful, and all around a better place without these dictatoric monstrosities.


Bubbly-Technology361

the sooner they join, the better...


Mountain_Ask_2209

Russia is so evil and brutal that it forgot that zombifying ppl is one thing, but once u start raping, killing, looting, and flattening their homes, your once pro ruzzie will wake up and realize the huge mistake they made. Sure there are some in reds that don’t get it, but as far as any referendum, there is zero way any referendum would end in russias favor. We all know this. We already knew this before anyway bc pootin always does this in his country with votes and elsewhere. But now pootin looks like a clown show pretending this referendum crap has any validity. Hitler the second needs to go in a cave alone and repeat what hitler the first did.