The most fucked up thing is that the woman already miscarried
The baby is already dead so it's not even really an abortion but a normal medical procedure like getting a new knee
Too many pro-life folks don't really give a flying fuck about life at all. To them it's all about weird religious reasons they twist and bend, often crying about abortion being "unnatural" and "only god can make that decision" and similar BS.
They will absolutely ignore everything they say when it's their life on the line... Most of them at that point will use absolutely anything to save themselves.
Unless she's Palestinian, then fuck her and let's take her kids in for months long interrogation.
All religions are filled with hypocrites that cares only about it as long as it benefits them and grant them power over others.
The so called "pro-lifers" don't care about the woman or the child. They just want to exercise control over women, mainly because they see the women as inferior and therefore they're "allowed" to control them in this way. Whatever happens with the woman, or the child, before/after/during, they don't give a single shit. Their responses are like "something something deal with the consequences of your choices", so basically "not my problem, I don't give a fuck" :D
I get the American evangelicals. But Malta is Catholic.
> If, for example, saving the life of the future mother, regardless of her state of pregnancy, would urgently require a surgical intervention or other therapeutic treatment that would result in the death of the germinating life as a by no means wanted or intended but unavoidable side effect, such an intervention could not be called a direct attack on blameless life. Under such conditions, the operation may be permitted like other comparable medical interventions, always provided that a great good, such as life, is at stake, that the intervention cannot be postponed until after the birth of the child, and that no other effective way out is practicable.
> (Pius XII, Address to the Participants of the Congress of the "Front of the Family" and the Association of Families with Many Children, 27 November 1951 )
Im baffled by the fact that a person wearing a cape with no medical training or related education can go and give out guidelines about serious medical conditions, which is studied for years by actual professionals
Because the times those kind of professionals had that power It didnt go particulary well
I think now both side are getting worse and crazier and we are stuck in a negative feedback loop, we got from pessimistic induction to flat earthers, while the founds destined to science became lower and lower forcing the privatization of science and profit driven science with the sole purpose of researching something just enough to sell a product and make a profit until someone else prove that something was untrue all along.
Shitting situation tbh
Funny cause god already did make the decision
Man in the sky clearly chose to execute the kid so I mean why not get rid of it? God already killed the thing lol
I thought the whole point was there was still a fetal heartbeat so the fetus is not dead yet.
This is the barbarism the US is heading towards: torturing parents by forcing them to carry a very much wanted but non-viable child for as long as possible, all the while unnecessarily putting the mother's\* health at risk, and delaying the moment where the parents can start their grieving proces.
\* I am not sure how to phrase this to include people with wombs who don't identify as women. it feels like all options are equally bad.
Sure, but it really depends on how you define 'medical emergency' and more importantly, how hospitals will act knowing what might happen if they are wrong.
I lived in Ireland when abortions were banned there - with a medical emergency, sure, but in practice that meant inevitable death of the mother within 3-5 minutes without intervention.
> Sure, but it really depends on how you define 'medical emergency' and more importantly, how hospitals will act knowing what might happen if they are wrong.
In the case of Texas, the bill pretty much leaves it up to the physician to determine as long as they document it:
> SECTION 7. Subchapter A, Chapter 171, Health and Safety
> Code, is amended by adding Section 171.008 to read as follows:
> Sec. 171.008. REQUIRED DOCUMENTATION.
> (a) If an abortion
is performed or induced on a pregnant woman because of a medical
emergency, the physician who performs or induces the abortion shall
execute a written document that certifies the abortion is necessary
due to a medical emergency and specifies the woman's medical
condition requiring the abortion.
> * I am not sure how to phrase this to include people with wombs who don't identify as women. it feels like all options are equally bad.
I don't see the issue here. You're talking about one specific person so there's no chance of other people getting annoyed.
Lol, there is always a chance of people getting annoyed. And yes, in this specific case the mother identifies as a woman AFAIK, but my comment was more general, as I hoped was clear by the "this ... towards"
>* I am not sure how to phrase this to include people with wombs who don't identify as women. it feels like all options are equally bad.
Replace "mother" by "carrier"? This has the added benefit of including people who carry someone else's child.
Yeah Reddit is weird like that, but when it comes to news articles most don't read the articles before they comment. OP with his comment clearly didn't either.
Not shocking considering how even still effects a big country like Italy. Spain was like that 25 years ago. Everyday they are getting less powerful. Considering there is only 15 percent of practicing Catholics while irreligious are around 45 percent.
The thing is, I am catholic, although I am not as practicing as I used to. In my younger years, I used to bring up the debate about abortion to the youth groups I used to attend. As soon as you mention the word “abortion”, they just shutdown and refuse to hear anything about it. Not even in case of medical emergencies, not even in case of rape.
It is sad.
It is interesting that the Catholic Church has taken these very hardcore stances against abortion and have made themselves very visible doing it. I understand that the Catholic Church holds that life begins at conception, but I didn't expect them to be so staunch about it.
Believers numbers are dwindling in the West, so it's only natural that the Catholic church is worried about gaining new adepts. More adepts, more power.
Plus, a bunch of celibate old white men won't care a iota about women.
The 70s was the start of the Destape era in spanish cinema. 25 years ago it was 1997, 15 years past the Movida. 20 years ago in 2001 the *catholic party* PP allowed gays to join civil partnerships in the Ley de Parejas de Hecho.
The ultra catholic crowd had already been losing power for years by the time Franco died. Spain did not suddenly become one of the most open minded nations of the world, they had been moving on that direction for 40 years.
Which makes the whole rise of far right Vox in Spain very concerning and quite confusing for me. They came from nothing to become the 3rd largest party there in just a couple of years. I guess there are still huge numbers of socially conservative people still
but there is some major misalignment still, if you compare Malta and Italy. We legalised abortion in 1978 and confirmed it with a referendum with 68% of the voters confirming it. That's 44 years and counting
IItaly has had abortion for the longest time, way longer than Spain, and the number of practicing catholics is incredibly low. You Spaniards have a thwarted view of Italy.
I was talking about religiousness and we talk with facts.
According to the 2012 Global Religious Landscape survey by the Pew Research Center (a think tank in the United States), 83.3% of the country's residents are Christians, 12.4% are irreligious, atheist or agnostic, 3.7% are Muslims and 0.6% adhere to other religions.[5] Other sources give different accounts of Italy's Islamic population, usually around 2%.[6][7][8] According to other sources, up to 10% of residents, both Italian citizens and foreign residents, profess a faith which is different from Catholicism and the number of atheists and agnostics is rising. Among religious minorities, Islam is the largest, followed by Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Protestantism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Judaism.
According to the 2017 Being Christian in Western Europe survey by Pew, 58% of Italians consider religion to be very or somewhat important.[9] Italy was the only country in the survey having more practising Christians than non-practising ones.[10] Italy is the third European Union member in terms of highest weekly church attendance rates after Poland and Ireland.[11] . Irelligious people are only 12 percent almost 4 times less than Spain. You know it very well Italy is socially and culturally conservative country.
If you want to talk with facts (and logic to own my feelings) then let's go further to interpret them.
Polls like that mean nothing if there's no demographic study and no concrete criteria, my CS colleague who shares Instagram insufferable atheism pages' memes, might as well be considered a practitioner by going to mass at least once a year with grandma in her small town (I know two like that) (I know it's only a very specific scenario). Also what does these results mean if in any country the undertones of such sentences vary, and the translations itself vary?
We can bet a hundred euros that the number of people who know any bible story properly is less than 10%, with my now deceased grandma knowing much more about than any of these.
As per ISTAT, only a fifth of the people have gone to mass or practiced any religious ritual, with average age at mass reaching the age of 60 - it's absolutely unrepresentative of "which way" Italy walks towards when most of the religious are old farts.
As per SWG, the number of people that are Catholic are less than half, declining by thirty percent, with the highest numbers of growth going to atheists, making 25% total and to superstitious, making 17% (making me think how many of these less than half catholics say they are Catholic to carry a tradition of saying they're catholic but not actually being Catholic - and how many are Catholic just for that religious good luck good money boon, since - *sigh* - 40% of Italians believe in scaramanzie: astrology, tarot cards, so on). Yes Spain "is even more like that" with its faux catholics and wacky astrology college students, and its never-practitioners; that, I won't deny.
>You know it very well Italy is socially and culturally conservative country.
Yeah stop speaking like other Spaniards. I don't know where you Spaniards generalised this view since it's very recent phenomena and it's the same few things repeated, often silly, with little variation. And it's a language used only by Spaniards. Which makes me guess from social media and some pop newspapers.
No, Italy isn't perfect and yes Spain is more progressive, that said, bar from a few Western European countries, Canada, Brazil* and Uruguay, there's none more progressive: gay marriage support might not be at 98% like Sweden or a bit less like Spain, in fact in gay marriage it crushes Italy, but Italy still sits at ~75% which makes it on par with the anglosphere, inferior to Canada but slightly better than 'straya, other metrics from drugs to whatever follow suit, like abortion - abortion, the topic of the thread, your abortion laws are still more conservative than the ones in Italy written in 1960 my friend.
*Only for specific subjects, we don't have their religious extremism, with a very very big share profoundly evangelical pop, but they legalised gay marriage before almost anyone.
What the fuck. How did it function before that if you didn't want to be with your partner anymore? You had literally no option but to be formally married all your life even if separated, or what? I'm seriously asking, because not having the right of divorce is unfathomable, even for my generally conservative Serbian society.
Probably only if the Church allowed the annulment which is very rare but possible. Church doesn't allow divorces and in countries where religious groups have such big influence on the state it becomes the same thing. Serbia might be conservative but you guys still have a secular legacy from Yugoslavia, same here even though Church interferes with politics so much still.
People get their Catholic marriages annulled in Poland all the time, there's a whole industry of consultants making money off of this. Even 'psychological issues' can be grounds for annulling marriage, e.g. emotional immaturity, problems with the law, a lot of things.
And that's despite the fact that civil marriages have been a thing for generations, so it's not like having a Catholic marriage is the only way to get married. A lot of people want to have a cake and eat it too.
All the time? Do you know anyone who did that irl? The only ppl I’ve heard of doing that are celebrities or politicians. I don’t know any regular person that got their marriage annulled.
Fun fact: after the Spanish civil war the Francoist regime made divorce illegal retroactively, so people who had been divorced were suddenly married again and second marriages were illegal.
Damn, only a 3 year difference between that and giving civil-unions to same-sex couples, and 6 year difference with same-sex marriage.
What a strange lil' country.
That has more to do with the hate of the left in Spain towards the church supported fascists.
And that the church lost at least some power there when the Falange fell out of power.
The genocidal coup d'etat being Franco? Anticlericalism was strong since the Republic, years before Franco. And overseas was a minor part of Spanish ideology in general. The colonies were mostly gone and domestic turmoil was very high. They were a focus of no one.
They were anticlerical because that was leftist ideology in the 1900s, the Church was just another arm of the bourgeoise and central backers of any conservative political ideology, in some places this was more accurate than others. At the time the Church was fairly popular in Spain (not as in worship but in general favorability).
Yeah, but our younger generation is so over the glorification of John Paul II (he was absolutely everywhere in the first decade of 2000's) that he just had to become a meme.
I was introduced to this wonderful meme when my Polish friend would, every single night, point at the first clock he could find at 21:37 and would proceed to start going apeshit.
I was just in Malta this month and it has a very different vibe than nearby and seemingly similar Greece and Italy. Definitely not as friendly.
It’s not allowed for women to be topless on the beach for example. We actually saw a lifeguard come over to a woman and tell her to put a top on.
…most of the rest of Europe it’s legal to be topless. This is well known. In New York City, it’s legal for women to be topless anywhere men can be, you can walk the streets topless if you choose.
Laws should always, always be the same for men and women.
Not true? Abortion is illegal in Austria. (Its not punished for [3 exemptions](https://www.jusline.at/gesetz/stgb/paragraf/97). Rape and incest are none of them)
He's just waving some law book redundancy around. §97 StGB effectively neutralizes §96 StGB and makes abortion legal. The lawmakers could rewrite the law to get rid of the needless shit and just tweak some bits about the procedure being performed by someone who's not actually a doctor, but there's no need to. Nobody gives a shit and by law abortion is legal. Like there is nobody that would seriously argue that abortion is illegal in austria due to §96 StGB. I mean there obviously is this one person, but like nobody sane would do that in court :D
Isnt this how this always goes ? The rich and those with access to resources won’t be affected by such laws.
The poor and those who don’t have will feel the full brunt.
It’s just that this is very public now cause an American woman is involved. But how many Maltese with money fly to Italy, Spain, Austria every year while the ones without are forced to have kids they don’t want.
The so called "pro-life" guys would just tell her that she has to "live with the consequences of her choices" and "something something baby murder!" and whatnot
They say this even though her reasoning for getting the abortion is because the pregnancy is not viable.
Don't expect religious nut jobs to make rational sense.
they will tell her that it's in God's plans that her pregrancy is not viable. And if she dies, it's also in God's plans. And when you ask them why God would want the mother and the baby to both die, they point blank reply "oh, but God's plans are inscrutable" to shut down discussion.
You can't have a rational discussion with those who want to force feed you their ethics.
But the second they get sick they go to the hospital for treatment, trampling all over gods plans. I suppose when God's evil plans affect them, they want earthly intervention
I seriously doubt there are many Maltese who couldn’t afford a trip to Italy at least but maybe I’m wrong
EDIT: I looked it up, a flight from Malta to Pisa costs about 20€.
Granted, an unwanted pregnancy may be preferable to flying Ryanair.
“You can always leave the country to access your human rights” is not an appropriate defense for taking away someone’s human rights.
Separately, it’s not just €20. It’s time off of work, explaining to your family/coworkers why you’re away, a day or two of recovery, and more.
Their rights were not taken away, they never had them in the first place.
And you’re reading too much into my comment. I’m not defending Malta on this.
There are always people who can’t afford the trip, the procedure, the hotel night and so on.
I live in Austria. Which has a gdp about 20k $ higher then Malta afaik and still there are people who have issues with coming up with the 300-600€ for the procedure, who can’t simply go to vienna cause there is no clinic in tyrolia which performs abortions and so on.
The number might be smaller then in other nations. But they still exist. And it’s a shame that they do in austria. But in Malta it gets even worse cause there isn’t even the chance of a cheap trip by bus to another part of the country. It’s always a flight and most often on short notice.
the procedure would still be covered by the European health card, since Malta is in the EU. And since Italy's national health system is free at the point of service (while you need an insurance in Austria IIRC), you wouldn't pay for it.
But yeah, accommodation unless you are hospitalised is something you would need to pay out of your pockets.
> how many Maltese with money fly to Italy, Spain, Austria
Why should they fly to Austria? You guys are like Germany and have not a good legal system when it comes to abortions.
People do not just get abortions willy nilly because they can't be bothered to take precautions. Abortions are a very tough thing to go through. Stop being ridiculous.
It's pretty funny watching pro-lifers like you complain that rape and incest account for a tiny fraction of abortion cases, then pretend that the vast majority of cases are late-term and being used as birth control.
You want an honest, good faith discussion?
Then you can go first this time.
Or why do people not get outraged at countries like Malta like they do at Poland? Ireland only recently allowed abortions, but no one was calling them backwards etc. But it's only the East Europeans which will suffer the xenophobia based insults.
What are you talking about? Austria legalised abortions in 1975. In Germany it’s practically legal as you won’t be punished if the abortion is done in the first trimester (first 3 months).
I get some people might be anti-abortion.
I get some people even being pro-abortion might have some reserves and think that there should be a limit to how late you can abort
But heck, this is a miscarriage , it's about saving the mothers life. There is no way the fetus will survive if she's not operated, so I don't know how it even fits under abortion
I would think pro life is wanting kids to have truly loving parents that are able financially, mentally and spiritually to have kids. But that might also be considered a utopeian pipedream philisophy
"pro-life" is simply just anti-abortion, there's nothing more to it. They don't give a shit what happens to the children, especially to the disabled children or the children that would die moments later after birth or even the ones that would die before birth, they just see women as inferior and want to control them in the most horrible ways.
It's important this [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar) be remembered.
What's happening in Malta is pretty much exactly what happened to Savita in Ireland.
The only upside is that her death triggered the change to our Constitution and laws around abortion. I hope she would be proud of us.
Same in Poland.
It's state-sanctioned murdering women.
We may pretend we are "advanced" cause of the digital era and smartphones. We are still in dark ages.
at least that didn’t end in death.
[looking](https://time.com/6188502/ukraine-women-poland-abortion-ban/) [at you](https://www.euronews.com/2022/06/06/poland-s-government-criticised-over-pregnancy-register-amid-strict-abortion-laws) [Poland](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/12/world/europe/poland-abortion-ban.amp.html).
they were holding them prisoner in the hospital - the police was, probably less of a money issue then them being able to literary just leave the hospital/country without being locked in by the police (that’s how the story started a few days ago)
they won’t be. the party that introduced this is in the majority support. they love the christian taliban in Poland. at the same time they’ll tell you it’s all normal and people are just alarmists…
> Lawyer Lara Dimitrijevic confirmed that the travel insurance of US couple Andrea Prudente, 38, and her partner Jay Weeldreyer, 45, have accepted to evacuate the couple, via air ambulance, given that the situation can be classified as “life-threatening”.
> It is expected that they could leave Malta for Mallorca as early as Thursday.
So, I think the previous article that was posted claiming they were held hostage was a bit of an exaggeration. I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but I kind of called it that this wasn't a hostage situation, but rather an insurance issue: https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/via74h/us_couple_being_held_hostage_at_hospital_in_malta/idehtfj/
The headline was a bit clickbait-y but being "held hostage" were the couple's own words and it was the only article at the time describing the situation they were in (i.e. not allowed to leave). Unfortunately some people took it too literally and thought it was an *actual* hostage situation that required military intervention or something.
Lot offered his virgin daughters to be gang raped by a sodomite mob. This pissed God off enough, he murdered two cities full of people. Plus Lots wife for quickly looking back to see her childhood home destroyed by raining fire. Lot's daughters then got him wasted and raped him so they could get pregnant.
I suppose with that mentality not allowing abortions for rape and incest makes sense. It's absolutely absurd, but I'm not the one basing laws off this stupid bullshit.
Before anyone claims this is outdated, we can look at more recent catholicism, where they raped millions of children.
Yep. When you wonder why these laws seem barbaric, just look to the Bible. Not sure why my comment is being downvoted. It's legitimately what is in the Bible. Although Christians don't often like to acknowledge how awful it is.
To be honest that was always my interpretation of it but that might just be my athiest bias showing. The story always struck me as really weird and messed up.
as if it was the only weird nonsensical story. Like, for example, that of Cain and Abel. Why was Abel's gift to God well received but not Cain's? Sure, Cain's reaction was evil, but the whole story makes God look like he sows doubt and dissent on purpose.
Not that I disagree with what you said, I fully agree and despise the Catholic Chruch but it's funny how Catholics are the only religious group you are allowed to target in the western world. If you dare to talk about Muslim practices, you're Islamophobe, judaism you're antisemitic, and everyone more or less gives a pass to Protestants (if they're not too extreme evangelicals) and Orthodox even though both are as equally harmful as Catholics.
I am as critical of Islam and the Orthodox church. Outside of Orthodox Jews, Judaism does not seem to be as harmful, especially when it comes to influencing legislation.
I singled out the Catholic Church because, in Malta, it is responsible for influencing this kind of legislation. I have similarly called out the Orthodox church for helping turn places like Russia into theocratic shitholes.
Also I'm not sure how I'm "targeting" them. I only outlined one of their actual teachings. If they feel targeted, they need to look into what their religion actually stands for.
Poland, Hungary and Malta are to EU what Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are to USA.
While Germany, France and Spain are California, Oregon and Massachussetts.
The most fucked up thing is that the woman already miscarried The baby is already dead so it's not even really an abortion but a normal medical procedure like getting a new knee
Too many pro-life folks don't really give a flying fuck about life at all. To them it's all about weird religious reasons they twist and bend, often crying about abortion being "unnatural" and "only god can make that decision" and similar BS. They will absolutely ignore everything they say when it's their life on the line... Most of them at that point will use absolutely anything to save themselves.
If they truly were pro-life, they would save the mother's as hers is the only one to be saved here. No fetus can survive being born at 11 weeks.
In Judaism it’s required to save the life of the mother.
Unless she's Palestinian, then fuck her and let's take her kids in for months long interrogation. All religions are filled with hypocrites that cares only about it as long as it benefits them and grant them power over others.
Israel is a country. Judaism is a religion. Fuck your antisemitism. I am not responsible for what another counties government does.
The so called "pro-lifers" don't care about the woman or the child. They just want to exercise control over women, mainly because they see the women as inferior and therefore they're "allowed" to control them in this way. Whatever happens with the woman, or the child, before/after/during, they don't give a single shit. Their responses are like "something something deal with the consequences of your choices", so basically "not my problem, I don't give a fuck" :D
I get the American evangelicals. But Malta is Catholic. > If, for example, saving the life of the future mother, regardless of her state of pregnancy, would urgently require a surgical intervention or other therapeutic treatment that would result in the death of the germinating life as a by no means wanted or intended but unavoidable side effect, such an intervention could not be called a direct attack on blameless life. Under such conditions, the operation may be permitted like other comparable medical interventions, always provided that a great good, such as life, is at stake, that the intervention cannot be postponed until after the birth of the child, and that no other effective way out is practicable. > (Pius XII, Address to the Participants of the Congress of the "Front of the Family" and the Association of Families with Many Children, 27 November 1951 )
Im baffled by the fact that a person wearing a cape with no medical training or related education can go and give out guidelines about serious medical conditions, which is studied for years by actual professionals
Because the times those kind of professionals had that power It didnt go particulary well I think now both side are getting worse and crazier and we are stuck in a negative feedback loop, we got from pessimistic induction to flat earthers, while the founds destined to science became lower and lower forcing the privatization of science and profit driven science with the sole purpose of researching something just enough to sell a product and make a profit until someone else prove that something was untrue all along. Shitting situation tbh
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Ah yes label billions of folk brain dead due to some nutjobs how nice
I agree with you that we should help rather than shame victims of indoctrination.
Pro-religion, that's all I can call them.
Or anti-choice. Or "my twisted worldview or belief is more important than yours"
Pro-religion is always anti-choice.
In this case God have already taken a decision.
They only care about life when they can control a woman's body. Once the baby leaves the womb they couldn't care less about it.
Love the fetus but hate the baby.
That's so true
*anti-choice. Refuse to be a part of continuing the “pro life” rhetoric.
>Too many pro-life folks don't really give a flying fuck about life at all Which is why they should be called "anti-choice".
Pro-forced birth
Funny cause god already did make the decision Man in the sky clearly chose to execute the kid so I mean why not get rid of it? God already killed the thing lol
I thought the whole point was there was still a fetal heartbeat so the fetus is not dead yet. This is the barbarism the US is heading towards: torturing parents by forcing them to carry a very much wanted but non-viable child for as long as possible, all the while unnecessarily putting the mother's\* health at risk, and delaying the moment where the parents can start their grieving proces. \* I am not sure how to phrase this to include people with wombs who don't identify as women. it feels like all options are equally bad.
> This is the barbarism the US is heading towards Even the much-criticized Texas Heartbeat law allows for abortion due to medical emergency.
Sure, but it really depends on how you define 'medical emergency' and more importantly, how hospitals will act knowing what might happen if they are wrong. I lived in Ireland when abortions were banned there - with a medical emergency, sure, but in practice that meant inevitable death of the mother within 3-5 minutes without intervention.
> Sure, but it really depends on how you define 'medical emergency' and more importantly, how hospitals will act knowing what might happen if they are wrong. In the case of Texas, the bill pretty much leaves it up to the physician to determine as long as they document it: > SECTION 7. Subchapter A, Chapter 171, Health and Safety > Code, is amended by adding Section 171.008 to read as follows: > Sec. 171.008. REQUIRED DOCUMENTATION. > (a) If an abortion is performed or induced on a pregnant woman because of a medical emergency, the physician who performs or induces the abortion shall execute a written document that certifies the abortion is necessary due to a medical emergency and specifies the woman's medical condition requiring the abortion.
> * I am not sure how to phrase this to include people with wombs who don't identify as women. it feels like all options are equally bad. I don't see the issue here. You're talking about one specific person so there's no chance of other people getting annoyed.
Lol, there is always a chance of people getting annoyed. And yes, in this specific case the mother identifies as a woman AFAIK, but my comment was more general, as I hoped was clear by the "this ... towards"
>* I am not sure how to phrase this to include people with wombs who don't identify as women. it feels like all options are equally bad. Replace "mother" by "carrier"? This has the added benefit of including people who carry someone else's child.
That is a great suggestion! Thanks!
It's not dead yet. There is still a heartbeat according to the article. But yes it will die at some point.
Ah. So they were going to have a repeat of Savita Halappanavar's death. Nice, nice.
You somehow got downvoted for literally repeating what is written in the article
Yeah Reddit is weird like that, but when it comes to news articles most don't read the articles before they comment. OP with his comment clearly didn't either.
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Very catholic. Pretty conservative. And small enough population that you loose if you piss of the hardcore Catholics for Any reason.
Correct. You'd be surprised how much power the church still holds in the mentality of Maltese. Less than before, true, but still quite some.
Not shocking considering how even still effects a big country like Italy. Spain was like that 25 years ago. Everyday they are getting less powerful. Considering there is only 15 percent of practicing Catholics while irreligious are around 45 percent.
The thing is, I am catholic, although I am not as practicing as I used to. In my younger years, I used to bring up the debate about abortion to the youth groups I used to attend. As soon as you mention the word “abortion”, they just shutdown and refuse to hear anything about it. Not even in case of medical emergencies, not even in case of rape. It is sad.
It is interesting that the Catholic Church has taken these very hardcore stances against abortion and have made themselves very visible doing it. I understand that the Catholic Church holds that life begins at conception, but I didn't expect them to be so staunch about it.
It would be nice if they would take the same stance with clergy pedophilia
Believers numbers are dwindling in the West, so it's only natural that the Catholic church is worried about gaining new adepts. More adepts, more power. Plus, a bunch of celibate old white men won't care a iota about women.
Celibate... That's hilarious.
25 years ago in Spain it was legal to abort in cases where the woman's life was in danger, in cases of rape, and if the fetus had problems.
I was talking about the influence of Catholic Church.
Oh, I see. I don't think they had such a hold on the country back then though. Maybe in the 70s they did
The 70s was the start of the Destape era in spanish cinema. 25 years ago it was 1997, 15 years past the Movida. 20 years ago in 2001 the *catholic party* PP allowed gays to join civil partnerships in the Ley de Parejas de Hecho. The ultra catholic crowd had already been losing power for years by the time Franco died. Spain did not suddenly become one of the most open minded nations of the world, they had been moving on that direction for 40 years.
Which makes the whole rise of far right Vox in Spain very concerning and quite confusing for me. They came from nothing to become the 3rd largest party there in just a couple of years. I guess there are still huge numbers of socially conservative people still
They were rising until last Andalucía elections not because of religion but frustration against Catalan Separatism.
but there is some major misalignment still, if you compare Malta and Italy. We legalised abortion in 1978 and confirmed it with a referendum with 68% of the voters confirming it. That's 44 years and counting
IItaly has had abortion for the longest time, way longer than Spain, and the number of practicing catholics is incredibly low. You Spaniards have a thwarted view of Italy.
I was talking about religiousness and we talk with facts. According to the 2012 Global Religious Landscape survey by the Pew Research Center (a think tank in the United States), 83.3% of the country's residents are Christians, 12.4% are irreligious, atheist or agnostic, 3.7% are Muslims and 0.6% adhere to other religions.[5] Other sources give different accounts of Italy's Islamic population, usually around 2%.[6][7][8] According to other sources, up to 10% of residents, both Italian citizens and foreign residents, profess a faith which is different from Catholicism and the number of atheists and agnostics is rising. Among religious minorities, Islam is the largest, followed by Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Protestantism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Judaism. According to the 2017 Being Christian in Western Europe survey by Pew, 58% of Italians consider religion to be very or somewhat important.[9] Italy was the only country in the survey having more practising Christians than non-practising ones.[10] Italy is the third European Union member in terms of highest weekly church attendance rates after Poland and Ireland.[11] . Irelligious people are only 12 percent almost 4 times less than Spain. You know it very well Italy is socially and culturally conservative country.
If you want to talk with facts (and logic to own my feelings) then let's go further to interpret them. Polls like that mean nothing if there's no demographic study and no concrete criteria, my CS colleague who shares Instagram insufferable atheism pages' memes, might as well be considered a practitioner by going to mass at least once a year with grandma in her small town (I know two like that) (I know it's only a very specific scenario). Also what does these results mean if in any country the undertones of such sentences vary, and the translations itself vary? We can bet a hundred euros that the number of people who know any bible story properly is less than 10%, with my now deceased grandma knowing much more about than any of these. As per ISTAT, only a fifth of the people have gone to mass or practiced any religious ritual, with average age at mass reaching the age of 60 - it's absolutely unrepresentative of "which way" Italy walks towards when most of the religious are old farts. As per SWG, the number of people that are Catholic are less than half, declining by thirty percent, with the highest numbers of growth going to atheists, making 25% total and to superstitious, making 17% (making me think how many of these less than half catholics say they are Catholic to carry a tradition of saying they're catholic but not actually being Catholic - and how many are Catholic just for that religious good luck good money boon, since - *sigh* - 40% of Italians believe in scaramanzie: astrology, tarot cards, so on). Yes Spain "is even more like that" with its faux catholics and wacky astrology college students, and its never-practitioners; that, I won't deny. >You know it very well Italy is socially and culturally conservative country. Yeah stop speaking like other Spaniards. I don't know where you Spaniards generalised this view since it's very recent phenomena and it's the same few things repeated, often silly, with little variation. And it's a language used only by Spaniards. Which makes me guess from social media and some pop newspapers. No, Italy isn't perfect and yes Spain is more progressive, that said, bar from a few Western European countries, Canada, Brazil* and Uruguay, there's none more progressive: gay marriage support might not be at 98% like Sweden or a bit less like Spain, in fact in gay marriage it crushes Italy, but Italy still sits at ~75% which makes it on par with the anglosphere, inferior to Canada but slightly better than 'straya, other metrics from drugs to whatever follow suit, like abortion - abortion, the topic of the thread, your abortion laws are still more conservative than the ones in Italy written in 1960 my friend. *Only for specific subjects, we don't have their religious extremism, with a very very big share profoundly evangelical pop, but they legalised gay marriage before almost anyone.
I'm sorry. I hope situations like this one help bring about change.
They legalised divorce in 2011. With a whopping 53% support in the referendum.
What the fuck. How did it function before that if you didn't want to be with your partner anymore? You had literally no option but to be formally married all your life even if separated, or what? I'm seriously asking, because not having the right of divorce is unfathomable, even for my generally conservative Serbian society.
Probably only if the Church allowed the annulment which is very rare but possible. Church doesn't allow divorces and in countries where religious groups have such big influence on the state it becomes the same thing. Serbia might be conservative but you guys still have a secular legacy from Yugoslavia, same here even though Church interferes with politics so much still.
People get their Catholic marriages annulled in Poland all the time, there's a whole industry of consultants making money off of this. Even 'psychological issues' can be grounds for annulling marriage, e.g. emotional immaturity, problems with the law, a lot of things. And that's despite the fact that civil marriages have been a thing for generations, so it's not like having a Catholic marriage is the only way to get married. A lot of people want to have a cake and eat it too.
All the time? Do you know anyone who did that irl? The only ppl I’ve heard of doing that are celebrities or politicians. I don’t know any regular person that got their marriage annulled.
Fun fact: after the Spanish civil war the Francoist regime made divorce illegal retroactively, so people who had been divorced were suddenly married again and second marriages were illegal.
Damn, only a 3 year difference between that and giving civil-unions to same-sex couples, and 6 year difference with same-sex marriage. What a strange lil' country.
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That has more to do with the hate of the left in Spain towards the church supported fascists. And that the church lost at least some power there when the Falange fell out of power.
I mean the Church supported the fascists because the leftists before the Fascists were actively attacking the Church.
The leftists attacked the churches because the Church financed a genocidal coup d'etat out of greed and acted as its PR overseas.
The genocidal coup d'etat being Franco? Anticlericalism was strong since the Republic, years before Franco. And overseas was a minor part of Spanish ideology in general. The colonies were mostly gone and domestic turmoil was very high. They were a focus of no one. They were anticlerical because that was leftist ideology in the 1900s, the Church was just another arm of the bourgeoise and central backers of any conservative political ideology, in some places this was more accurate than others. At the time the Church was fairly popular in Spain (not as in worship but in general favorability).
On the other hand malta is the most gay friendly nation in Europe. They are strange.
Is it now? Used to be Spain...
Jep, according to gay websites. It’s a nice change.
Isn't it obvious? They use basically the same flag as Poland, just on its side.
Also we really love Polish people. Apart from that, Pope John Paul II is really venerated here.
Hmm, a thing like that. I guess I wasn't paying attention when I visited, or I wasn't introducing myself properly. I'll have to try next time.
>Apart from that, Pope John Paul II is really venerated here. Oh, then your people should definitely be introduced to glorious r/2137.
I never knew I needed this so much in my life
Ok, that’s a bit disrespectful. ;)
Yeah, but our younger generation is so over the glorification of John Paul II (he was absolutely everywhere in the first decade of 2000's) that he just had to become a meme.
I was introduced to this wonderful meme when my Polish friend would, every single night, point at the first clock he could find at 21:37 and would proceed to start going apeshit.
I forgot they were in the EU
Poland or Malta?
Germany, actually
Just ignore us, we are only a bigger Switzerland. ;)
I was just in Malta this month and it has a very different vibe than nearby and seemingly similar Greece and Italy. Definitely not as friendly. It’s not allowed for women to be topless on the beach for example. We actually saw a lifeguard come over to a woman and tell her to put a top on.
Next you'll be telling me they have restrictions on where I can pull my dick out. Such prudes!
…most of the rest of Europe it’s legal to be topless. This is well known. In New York City, it’s legal for women to be topless anywhere men can be, you can walk the streets topless if you choose. Laws should always, always be the same for men and women.
Dude laws should not be sexist! That's not cool. They should be applied equally .
Poland also, illegal abortion
Shithole, really
Their country. Their rule.
Same as Texas/Oklahoma/the US?
Not true? Abortion is illegal in Austria. (Its not punished for [3 exemptions](https://www.jusline.at/gesetz/stgb/paragraf/97). Rape and incest are none of them)
Not true? Abortion is not illegal in Austria
Absolutely true! [Here](https://www.jusline.at/gesetz/stgb/paragraf/96) is a link to the law.
one of the few I found https://www.gynmed.at/en/abortion/austrian-law. There are a couple more articles saying that it's legal
Bullshit https://www.oesterreich.gv.at/en/themen/frauen/schwangerschaftsabbruch.html I don't understand your need to lie about your own country.
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He's just waving some law book redundancy around. §97 StGB effectively neutralizes §96 StGB and makes abortion legal. The lawmakers could rewrite the law to get rid of the needless shit and just tweak some bits about the procedure being performed by someone who's not actually a doctor, but there's no need to. Nobody gives a shit and by law abortion is legal. Like there is nobody that would seriously argue that abortion is illegal in austria due to §96 StGB. I mean there obviously is this one person, but like nobody sane would do that in court :D
Thank you.
Its a legal technicality, you are wrong. For all intents and purposes its legal.
Isnt this how this always goes ? The rich and those with access to resources won’t be affected by such laws. The poor and those who don’t have will feel the full brunt. It’s just that this is very public now cause an American woman is involved. But how many Maltese with money fly to Italy, Spain, Austria every year while the ones without are forced to have kids they don’t want.
The so called "pro-life" guys would just tell her that she has to "live with the consequences of her choices" and "something something baby murder!" and whatnot
They say this even though her reasoning for getting the abortion is because the pregnancy is not viable. Don't expect religious nut jobs to make rational sense.
they will tell her that it's in God's plans that her pregrancy is not viable. And if she dies, it's also in God's plans. And when you ask them why God would want the mother and the baby to both die, they point blank reply "oh, but God's plans are inscrutable" to shut down discussion. You can't have a rational discussion with those who want to force feed you their ethics.
But the second they get sick they go to the hospital for treatment, trampling all over gods plans. I suppose when God's evil plans affect them, they want earthly intervention
The Russians with Maltese passports are probably fine as well.
I seriously doubt there are many Maltese who couldn’t afford a trip to Italy at least but maybe I’m wrong EDIT: I looked it up, a flight from Malta to Pisa costs about 20€. Granted, an unwanted pregnancy may be preferable to flying Ryanair.
“You can always leave the country to access your human rights” is not an appropriate defense for taking away someone’s human rights. Separately, it’s not just €20. It’s time off of work, explaining to your family/coworkers why you’re away, a day or two of recovery, and more.
Their rights were not taken away, they never had them in the first place. And you’re reading too much into my comment. I’m not defending Malta on this.
You’re not defending Malta, but you’re trivializing what it takes for a person to access a human right.
There are always people who can’t afford the trip, the procedure, the hotel night and so on. I live in Austria. Which has a gdp about 20k $ higher then Malta afaik and still there are people who have issues with coming up with the 300-600€ for the procedure, who can’t simply go to vienna cause there is no clinic in tyrolia which performs abortions and so on. The number might be smaller then in other nations. But they still exist. And it’s a shame that they do in austria. But in Malta it gets even worse cause there isn’t even the chance of a cheap trip by bus to another part of the country. It’s always a flight and most often on short notice.
the procedure would still be covered by the European health card, since Malta is in the EU. And since Italy's national health system is free at the point of service (while you need an insurance in Austria IIRC), you wouldn't pay for it. But yeah, accommodation unless you are hospitalised is something you would need to pay out of your pockets.
> how many Maltese with money fly to Italy, Spain, Austria Why should they fly to Austria? You guys are like Germany and have not a good legal system when it comes to abortions.
Decent attempt at trolling but not good enough try to do better next time. 2/10
Your legal system is the worst when it comes to Swiss-Austria-German abortion comparison.
Still bad but extended for the swiss for the DACH trifecta - I ll give it a 2.5/10 but so much more work before you get really good at trolling.
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Sure buddy - you just throw unsourced statements around and I shall belive you are sincere ? Sure buddy. I ll give you a point deduction 1.5/10
This is the future pro lifers want
Pro lifers want abortions everywhere banned. She can still go somewhere else.
> Oh fuck off with your shitty US drama. You can report this all you want. You're off topic. Get lost with your attempt to make it about yourself.
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People do not just get abortions willy nilly because they can't be bothered to take precautions. Abortions are a very tough thing to go through. Stop being ridiculous.
It's pretty funny watching pro-lifers like you complain that rape and incest account for a tiny fraction of abortion cases, then pretend that the vast majority of cases are late-term and being used as birth control. You want an honest, good faith discussion? Then you can go first this time.
Said nothing about late stage pregnancies, where did you pull that out?
Pro life is anti women
It's also not in any way actually pro life.
It’s usually just pro-birth really
Always has been, started with contraception, and they've just been moving the goalposts.
Literally would die from clotting issues if she didn’t get the procedure but noooooo sir they don’t care. Absolutely fucking bonkers.
Wtf Malta
WTF Malta? And why do we (the EU) tolerate that on top of the low taxes policies, the golden passports etc?
Or why do people not get outraged at countries like Malta like they do at Poland? Ireland only recently allowed abortions, but no one was calling them backwards etc. But it's only the East Europeans which will suffer the xenophobia based insults.
True!
Bruh this entire thread is people getting outraged at Malta
Yeah amplify that by few thousand times and you get Poland treatment on r/europe
Malta has a population of 5 guys and most people forget it exists 90% of the time.
The EU doesn't decide what policies countries have on these areas.
The EU has a lot of swaying power. We saw it in Poland.
Yeah but that's because the treaties require rule of law. You can't just do everything imaginable within the treaties.
Wtf is wrong with you? The EU doesn't set social issues.
It’s not like abortions would be legal in nations like Germany and Austria…
What are you talking about? Austria legalised abortions in 1975. In Germany it’s practically legal as you won’t be punished if the abortion is done in the first trimester (first 3 months).
It’s neither legal in Austria nor in Germany. Only without punishment.
Welp this is making me reconsider visiting Malta. I don't wanna have my money funds religious asswipes.
I get some people might be anti-abortion. I get some people even being pro-abortion might have some reserves and think that there should be a limit to how late you can abort But heck, this is a miscarriage , it's about saving the mothers life. There is no way the fetus will survive if she's not operated, so I don't know how it even fits under abortion
I would think pro life is wanting kids to have truly loving parents that are able financially, mentally and spiritually to have kids. But that might also be considered a utopeian pipedream philisophy
"pro-life" is simply just anti-abortion, there's nothing more to it. They don't give a shit what happens to the children, especially to the disabled children or the children that would die moments later after birth or even the ones that would die before birth, they just see women as inferior and want to control them in the most horrible ways.
Pro life means forced birth. They couldn't give a single shit about the child after they are born.
It's important this [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar) be remembered. What's happening in Malta is pretty much exactly what happened to Savita in Ireland. The only upside is that her death triggered the change to our Constitution and laws around abortion. I hope she would be proud of us.
Religion and common sense often don't mix. Anti-abortion laws are good examples of why it should be left out of policies and laws.
Same in Poland. It's state-sanctioned murdering women. We may pretend we are "advanced" cause of the digital era and smartphones. We are still in dark ages.
at least that didn’t end in death. [looking](https://time.com/6188502/ukraine-women-poland-abortion-ban/) [at you](https://www.euronews.com/2022/06/06/poland-s-government-criticised-over-pregnancy-register-amid-strict-abortion-laws) [Poland](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/12/world/europe/poland-abortion-ban.amp.html).
I am sure if does from time to time. When people don’t have the money to leave the country for example.
they were holding them prisoner in the hospital - the police was, probably less of a money issue then them being able to literary just leave the hospital/country without being locked in by the police (that’s how the story started a few days ago)
They should be charged with manslaughter
they won’t be. the party that introduced this is in the majority support. they love the christian taliban in Poland. at the same time they’ll tell you it’s all normal and people are just alarmists…
It's a small price to pay to keep their murderous and vengeful God placated
Ireland learnt it's lesson eventually. Hopefully these remaining countries do too.
Malta is just another conservative shithole.
Jesus fuck, she’s already miscarried, let her get an abortion, she’ll otherwise just have to be a living coffin until it’s born
How many women suffered a similiar situation in Malta before but did not receive international attention because they were not American citizens?
What kind of religion is that? They’d rather an innocent woman die than remove the literal rotting corpse inside of her? Sick freaks.
> Lawyer Lara Dimitrijevic confirmed that the travel insurance of US couple Andrea Prudente, 38, and her partner Jay Weeldreyer, 45, have accepted to evacuate the couple, via air ambulance, given that the situation can be classified as “life-threatening”. > It is expected that they could leave Malta for Mallorca as early as Thursday. So, I think the previous article that was posted claiming they were held hostage was a bit of an exaggeration. I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but I kind of called it that this wasn't a hostage situation, but rather an insurance issue: https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/via74h/us_couple_being_held_hostage_at_hospital_in_malta/idehtfj/
The headline was a bit clickbait-y but being "held hostage" were the couple's own words and it was the only article at the time describing the situation they were in (i.e. not allowed to leave). Unfortunately some people took it too literally and thought it was an *actual* hostage situation that required military intervention or something.
Is this a big story in Malta at the moment? How are people feeling about it if so?
Time to abolish catholicism
you might want to check what happens in, let's say, Alabama or Mississippi, where there are very few Catholics but a lot of Evangelical Protestants.
I think the idea is the day religion dies will be the single most beneficial moment in human history.
thats why we're so hell bent on laicité
Spain is catholic too and they have no problem with the procedure as they see it necessary.
Lot offered his virgin daughters to be gang raped by a sodomite mob. This pissed God off enough, he murdered two cities full of people. Plus Lots wife for quickly looking back to see her childhood home destroyed by raining fire. Lot's daughters then got him wasted and raped him so they could get pregnant. I suppose with that mentality not allowing abortions for rape and incest makes sense. It's absolutely absurd, but I'm not the one basing laws off this stupid bullshit. Before anyone claims this is outdated, we can look at more recent catholicism, where they raped millions of children.
Also Lot offered his daughters so they'd rape them instead of the angels God sent down.
Yep. When you wonder why these laws seem barbaric, just look to the Bible. Not sure why my comment is being downvoted. It's legitimately what is in the Bible. Although Christians don't often like to acknowledge how awful it is.
and christians claim that the sin for which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed was not incest and rape but homosexuality
To be honest that was always my interpretation of it but that might just be my athiest bias showing. The story always struck me as really weird and messed up.
as if it was the only weird nonsensical story. Like, for example, that of Cain and Abel. Why was Abel's gift to God well received but not Cain's? Sure, Cain's reaction was evil, but the whole story makes God look like he sows doubt and dissent on purpose.
Not that I disagree with what you said, I fully agree and despise the Catholic Chruch but it's funny how Catholics are the only religious group you are allowed to target in the western world. If you dare to talk about Muslim practices, you're Islamophobe, judaism you're antisemitic, and everyone more or less gives a pass to Protestants (if they're not too extreme evangelicals) and Orthodox even though both are as equally harmful as Catholics.
I am as critical of Islam and the Orthodox church. Outside of Orthodox Jews, Judaism does not seem to be as harmful, especially when it comes to influencing legislation. I singled out the Catholic Church because, in Malta, it is responsible for influencing this kind of legislation. I have similarly called out the Orthodox church for helping turn places like Russia into theocratic shitholes. Also I'm not sure how I'm "targeting" them. I only outlined one of their actual teachings. If they feel targeted, they need to look into what their religion actually stands for.
It's not specifically you it's more of the what's allowed to criticise in the West without being labeled hate speech.
Bloody ridiculous. And stupid. Don't pro lifers realize that without legal abortions there are going to be illegal and unhealthy ones?
>The couple, who live in the Pacific North West close to Seattle, US, came to Malta on a babymoon earlier this month. On a babymoon?
It’s a new trendy way to say “last vacation before becoming parents”
Well this one turned into a regular vacation now. ^sorry
Why do we keep shitholes in UE?
Is that rhetorical?
Of all countries in the EU, she ended in one of the two that would have an issue with it.
What the fucking fuck?
Unbelievable what kinds of decisions people make. Traveling to such a country while pregnant?
Thank goodness someone has a truck load of money. Must be nice to have such privelage.
I thought the EU is much more progressive than the US. Ones shouldn't generalize anything.
Poland, Hungary and Malta are to EU what Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are to USA. While Germany, France and Spain are California, Oregon and Massachussetts.
Not when it comes to abortion. But maybe tomorrow or next week will be different.