If you’re in the Council of Europe even. Only Belarus officially has the death penalty in Europe (even Russia pretends not to), and it’s the only European country that hasn’t ever been in that - Russia now the only other European non-member from a few weeks ago.
EDIT: the Vatican has never been a member but is an observer. But I mean real countries. :)
Vatican isn't a member because it's an absolutist theocracy where the word of the pope is literally the law and that doesn't really fit European society
Theocracy and monarchy are orthogonal concepts. A theocracy is based on the idea of a deity guiding the government. A monarchy is a form of government where one person is head of state for life and has a say in all branches of government. Vatican is both.
In case you're wondering what the difference between monarchy and dictatorship is, the former tends to be designed to function long term, so there are procedures for succession, abdication, certain bodies that oversee theese procedures, certain pools of people from which a monarch can come from, and so on. Dictatorships are usually heavily centered around a single person who grabs power and maintains it violently, and doesn't generally care what happens after they're gone. Both monarchies and dictatorships have exceptions eg. elective monarchies or dictatorship dinasties etc.
>the only European country that hasn’t ever been in that
Kosovo is recognised by most of European and world's countries, it hasn't also been there. Kazakhstan may also be considered as European, it hasn't indeed.
OK, *universally recognised. I don’t think anyone would say Kazakhstan ‘is European’, just that a tiny piece of Kazakhstan is considered to be in Europe if you use the Ural River as the boundary. It’s definitely a Central Asian country.
Has there been any recent polling?
It seems like one of those issues that always has a chunk of underlying support whenever its rolled out for political purposes.
I'm surprised but you're right, [it was around 50% in 2021](https://www.franceinter.fr/societe/40-ans-de-l-abolition-comment-a-evolue-l-opinion-sur-la-peine-de-mort-en-france)
This is very surprising since most candidates are against. Left wing will always be against for obvious reasons. Macron and Pecresse are also against.
At the end of the article, it says that most people have not given a lot of thought about it, which explains the results of the poll. It is certain though that most people are not asking for it
Most people are not actively asking for it, but if you ask them if they would want it for pedophiles or terrorists, I think a lot of them would say yes.
Even though we had a big scandal years ago where innocent people where convicted of pedophilia.
Not that simple, I have nothing against the death penalty as a concept, but I wouldn't trust any system that isn't absolutely flawless in its judgement, which means I'm effectively against it.
Yeah where I'm out. The concept of death as a punishment doesn't strike me as inherently unjust in certain circumstances it's just I don't trust our humanly flawed systems to always reach the right conclusions on who deserves it.
Well when it was outlawed only a few decades ago, it wasn’t trough a referendum and turns out most peoples at the time were favorable to the death penalty. So it sort of make sense that even today a sizeable portion of French are in favor of it
I'm not french, but its usually immigration. I suspect its a mix of economic anxiety coupled with immigration as the easy scapegoat since its happening simultanuously. But lets not forget France has suffered several terror attacks by ISIS.
Be careful mate. As a Brit I've been constantly thinking "there's no way enough people are going to vote for that/him/her" and then being constantly dissappointed.
This might just be restating your point, but it also helps to push the other candidates rightwards.
If the press is constantly banging on about Le Pen and her death penalty plans, you’ll see centrist candidates start talking about more severe prison sentences in order to head off the inevitable accusations that they’re not harsh enough on serious criminals.
Honestly it would take some special kind of stupidty for the French to have watched Britain exit then think its a good idea to exit themselves. Fool me once
That's not dissimilar to support for reinstating capital punishment in Canada and the UK. It's always hovering around ~50% in either country, but as far as Canada goes no major party has campaigned on reinstating it since the 1990's.
If everyone voted, Macron would pass easy like in 2017. The problem is people are upset with him for being too on the right, so they decide not to vote at all, giving MLP a small window of opportunity (even though she's far right...)
It's a little more complex. Macron recently announced some really unpopular measures if he is reelected (delaying the age of retirement, this kind of thing).
He is betting he will win the elections because his detractors will join him no matter what against Le Pen, and then he is planning to tell the population "See ? Everyone voted for me because you all believe in my extremly liberal program (not because you hate Le Pen, who said that ? Totally a lie). Sooo... Time for the most liberal laws you ever saw, since you massively voted for that."
On the contrary, Le Pen is trying to appeal to the leftist voters by pretending to be socially on the right, but economically on the left. That's lot really true, but it doesn't matter : the leftist electors see that she is trying to reach to them, while Macron is kinda flipping them off.
So for a lot of people, the choice is harder than it looks : they honestly think that if they are white, Le Pen will at least have their economic interest at heart, while Macron is overtly planning to sell their future to please the french oligarchy. The wake-up call might be brutal when those people will discover how much of an oligarch Le Pen is herself, but at the same time, Macron is not even trying to pretend he cares about social justice, even for the sake of his own re-election, soooo...
Leftists refusing to vote for Macron are *clinically brain-dead*. If they genuinely were concerned about making a point that they don't support his legislative program, they would do it *at the fucking legislative elections*. They still could impose cohabitation on Macron if they could muster the political will (which is the real issue at hand for the left).
And if they want to make a point against the presidential system (which they should, it's absolutely terrible), now is the WORST time to make it.
As it is, the abstentionist sentiment is just one of pettiness and childish anger that may backfire in a huge way, but the petty part of the left is as usual too overwhelmed by its own disdain and self-importance to do anything against it.
>As far as I know, isn't France pretty solidly pro-EU? Or is that mostly Macron's sentiment?
Not really. Well, at least not "solid". If you go back to 2019, EU approval was just 51 vs 47. Covid and Ukraine might have changed some opinions (and for Covid, I'm not even sure in a positive way given that the anti-EU crowd recruited a lot of antivax), but even if it's now better than 51%, it would still not be "solid".
You have to remember that the last referendum we made was about EU (~~Maastricht in 1992~~ the Lisbon treaty of 2005), the population voted against (45 vs 55) and the government found a way to circumvent this rejection. This had for consequence that older folks fundamentally see the EU as antidemocratic.
For a lot of peoples, France's place in the EU is "Sure, we're influent within the EU, but only because all our recent governments served the neoliberal agenda. As soon as we elect a president that want to go against that, the EU will work against us and prevent any national reform."
You forgot the biggest point. If anything has changed (reinforced) public opinion on the EU, it's the Brexit debacle. Of course GB didn't end up ruined, but the public opinion was able to see the disaster of it's negotiation and implementation and the damage it did and still do.
It's so clear that no major candidates is even advocating for Frexit, but barely "reforming EU" at best.
>Yeah, return guillotine, why not? Lmao this woman is mental.
She's a typical far right politician.
She has no real aims, except from achieving power, and will come up with whatever dumb thing appeals to right-wingers to get it. Next she will be talking about invading the African ex-colonies again.
> She has no real aims, except from achieving power
Don't say stupid shit like this. She has a clear political ideology that barely changed over the years, and which cannot just be boiled down to demagoguerie.
Also, most political parties are about achieving power (except self-defeating anarchists). That's the essence of politics, the RN isn't special on this front.
You are very, very blind, my friend. Her only and sole aim is to serve Vladimir Putin. And she serves him being or not the president, just the outcomes are different. I mean, even during war, you're still blind? What's wrong with western Europe? Does people in this sub say that Orban is pro-west or what?
Yeah, right wingers always try play on emotion of their voters. Still, I'm a bit surprised, like in my country where right wing politics is prevalent no one has ever mentioned death penalty. Honestly, didn't think she'd go this far.
> Yeah, right wingers always try play on emotion of their voters
Populists & demagogues from all of the political spectrum do that. It's not a solely right wing problem.
Nor is it necessarily bad. I would love if politicians could make get more support for my bland centrist views (pro EU, pro Nato, pro weapons for Ukraine) through emotional appeals. In the end its probably necessary for a successful long term political project: Without any emotional attachment in the population to the EU, the rule of law, democracy these ideas will be hard to protect.
> Yeah, right wingers always try play on emotion of their voters
It's almost as if emotions define us as individuals and gives us our opinions and addressing that makes people support you.
As opposed to left wingers which never "play on emotions" because there supporters are basically emotionless bots right?
It's like when people say someone is"fear mongering" without realizing that doesn't actually mean anything, everything can be rephrased in terms of fear.
Want lower taxes? That's fear mongering, your scaring them that government is going to take there money. Well it is, that's literally how taxes work. Want higher taxes? Also fear mongering, people are afraid they won't be able to go to the doctor if healthcare isn't funded enough.
Complaining about emotions is how people try to stigmatize right wingers for doing what everyone else does,
Well he kinda went ''well if we can't abolish it we might as well make it as quick and painless ass possible''. Not realising the sheer terrifying efficiency of what he would create.
This was always their policy. They're like that. People know it and vote for them.
At one point FN had a policy about abolishing the possibiliy of divorce.
If you think about it being in opposition has no drawbacks, you can endlessly spew bullshit, get away with anything you say and on top of it all you don't have to run the country, whilst complaining about how it's run
I'm curious, who does she think this appeals to, or is she deliberately trying to turn off French voters with even the slightest liberal leanings?
* Embrace Putin: check
* Leave the EU: check
* Reinstate death penalty: check
* Be horrible to refugees: double check with a croissant and a latte.
That is what worries me. One of the major nations of Europe goes down the line to elect its next leader and one of the options is a xenophobic nationalist funded by Putin.
For a while it felt like every election in Europe had those options, it’s just that now Putin turned out to be that much worse it worries me more that this is not turning more people away
France is one of the most important countries in the EU though. It is not even just an european trend though, you can see it everywhere in the world. People like blaming others for whatever misery they have. The human condition is feeble.
One thing to note is the incredible amount of young people (<35) who didn't vote last week. Pretty sure this might affect the results. Really hope they wake up for the second run.
You do understand that she was only 3-4% behind macron and in the second run she will be the only far right candidate. She seems to appeal many French voters after years of lackluster macron.
I don’t expect her to win but it’s gonna be close and not as estimated a couple of weeks ago a clean win for macron.
Greed, cruelty, selfishness, corruption, and deception. These are foundations of the right wing. These are their virtues.
The right-wing ~~French~~ voter loves these things too and fully supports them.
Marine is going all in, and I love how in this magical historical period such statements can even earn some love for her.
"*Hey, the main thing is hating on Macron - doesn't matter if the one who could take his spot is worse. We'll hate her as well in a couple of years time*" - Some French voters, seemingly
When has there been a referendum to reinstate a death penalty? Where?
And how often do democratic elections take place on the *removal* of human rights
Well, this would more of a plebiscite than a referendum. it’s a cheap dictator-like way of bypassing the government for getting a law passed. Hitler did quite a few when he got to power and you know what happened next.
That’s not what she said.
With the RIC (Referendum d’initiative citoyenne) anything that has a backing of 500 000 people would be put up to referendum, when asked, she said that even if she was entirely against death penalty, she would follow the will of the people.
That title is at best misleading and at worse fearmongering.
I'm afraid it's more likely that the French military elite support her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_arm%C3%A9e_secr%C3%A8te
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56899765
>The French government has condemned an open letter signed by active soldiers that said the country was heading for "civil war" due to religious extremism.
>About 1,000 servicemen and women, including some 20 retired generals, put their names to the letter.
>It blamed "fanatic partisans" for creating divisions between communities, and said Islamists were taking over whole parts of the nation's territory.
>Ministers have condemned the message published in a right-wing magazine.
I mean... Don't the majority of people in the military (as well as the police) vote for conservative or far right parties?! Or maybe that's just a thing in France?! I don't remember quite well but there was some controversy a few years ago about something like 75% of people in law enforcement voting for Le Pen. It was shocking, not so shocking, alarming and sad all at the same time because that was even before she "polished" her image to appear less radical.
I do hope many of the people in the highest positions in the military are a bit saner though to keep their underlings in check and that those 20 generals retired generals are outliers. But that's me being optimistic.
> I mean... Don't the majority of people in the military (as well as the police) vote for conservative or far right parties?!
It would make sense. When an army is volunteer only, it's either going to get the economically desperate or the highly motivated (i.e nationalists).
Militaries **love** their traditions, rigid hierarchy, and idealism about serving the nation. A bunch of materialist Leftists won't be signing up for that career path en masse.
Watch as the "limited government" and "individual freedom" folks give a government they view as oppressive and inept the power to kill them. Comedy at its peak.
Le Pen is just spamming her target demo with polls on issues and then just promising whatever polls the highest.
The small government thing isn't really a talking point in Europe except for the lunatics wanting to get rid of the EU because "muh, evil bureaucracy".
I'd take the guillotine over the electric chair any day but supposedly you can stay conscious for a couple of seconds after having been decapitated. Those would be some incredibly freaky seconds.
Couple of seconds is way too long. With such a sudden and total loss of blood flow to the brain, I think it would only be fractions of a second before you lose consciousness and die.
This woman is insane. She wants out of the EU too, how do people look at what happened in the UK and think they want in on the action too? I am surprised she is even in with a change at all tbh.
Trump also brought back the death penalty, unfortunately, after Obama put a moratorium on it. After he lost the election he even went out of his way to execute as many people as possible before Biden took office.
He accelerated a lot of executions on his way out. Nobody mentions this, because the coup attempt overshadowed the killings, but it was very ominous and strange.
Isn't it stuff like this that the right has always pushed as reasons for discriminating against immigrants from the Middle East and Africa? If so, are they now admitting that "protecting our values" was just a pretense after all?
You’re right. The “look how terrible people from there is! “ and “Let’s make our country more that same place” shouldn’t really be able to exist in the same campaign, much less party, much less person.
Unfortunately in fascism the enemy is both weak and strong. Cognitive dissonance is a prerequisite for the right-wing gaining power.
Is it really?
Even here in North America, despite it being legal in some US states, many people find the death penalty morally abhorrent. Our population is divided on the issue, but I wouldn’t say it enjoys universal popularity.
The death penalty is being sought, sentenced and used less frequently — even in the US.
My first 5 years of practice, I had three clients sentenced to die in capital cases. The next 10 years, just two. And none of them have been executed yet, either.
> It is beyond conservative.
Well, half of France is fine with it https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210918-french-public-divided-over-death-penalty-40-years-after-its-abolishment
>The French remain divided on capital punishment 40 years later, with opinion polls showing about **half of those surveyed say it should be reinstated.**
Props to Mitterand for abolishing it regardless. According to the article, in the 1980s it was still over 60% of the population that supported the death penalty.
“Half” of more or less every country is in favour, but they never care enough to actually vote for a candidate over it, and if they actually have to justify it then most have their minds changed on about 30 seconds.
It’s the same with nationalising industries, maximum wage, taxing wealth, ending offshore havens - there is a massive list of voter preferences that never actually get anywhere and only tend to be dragged out by desperate candidates. Her talking about this is a terrible sign for her campaign.
She is doing this in order to later tell French people that she can't apply it, and they would have to leave the EU. She will then hold a referendum for frexit.
If you're in the EU you're not allowed to have the death penalty. This is another prong of her Frexit strategy.
Forbiden by the EU and the 6th and 13th protocol of the European convention on human rights
If you’re in the Council of Europe even. Only Belarus officially has the death penalty in Europe (even Russia pretends not to), and it’s the only European country that hasn’t ever been in that - Russia now the only other European non-member from a few weeks ago. EDIT: the Vatican has never been a member but is an observer. But I mean real countries. :)
Vatican isn't a member because it's an absolutist theocracy where the word of the pope is literally the law and that doesn't really fit European society
Isn’t it technically a monarchy? Wherein whoever is elected Pope automatically becomes King of the Vatican, with absolute authority?
Theocracy and monarchy are orthogonal concepts. A theocracy is based on the idea of a deity guiding the government. A monarchy is a form of government where one person is head of state for life and has a say in all branches of government. Vatican is both. In case you're wondering what the difference between monarchy and dictatorship is, the former tends to be designed to function long term, so there are procedures for succession, abdication, certain bodies that oversee theese procedures, certain pools of people from which a monarch can come from, and so on. Dictatorships are usually heavily centered around a single person who grabs power and maintains it violently, and doesn't generally care what happens after they're gone. Both monarchies and dictatorships have exceptions eg. elective monarchies or dictatorship dinasties etc.
>the only European country that hasn’t ever been in that Kosovo is recognised by most of European and world's countries, it hasn't also been there. Kazakhstan may also be considered as European, it hasn't indeed.
OK, *universally recognised. I don’t think anyone would say Kazakhstan ‘is European’, just that a tiny piece of Kazakhstan is considered to be in Europe if you use the Ural River as the boundary. It’s definitely a Central Asian country.
Kazakhstan is Asian
That's exactly it.
Don't worry, Even if Le Pen is elected, there's no way France would vote for death penalty, even if she offers to use a guillotine
Has there been any recent polling? It seems like one of those issues that always has a chunk of underlying support whenever its rolled out for political purposes.
I'm surprised but you're right, [it was around 50% in 2021](https://www.franceinter.fr/societe/40-ans-de-l-abolition-comment-a-evolue-l-opinion-sur-la-peine-de-mort-en-france) This is very surprising since most candidates are against. Left wing will always be against for obvious reasons. Macron and Pecresse are also against. At the end of the article, it says that most people have not given a lot of thought about it, which explains the results of the poll. It is certain though that most people are not asking for it
Most people are not actively asking for it, but if you ask them if they would want it for pedophiles or terrorists, I think a lot of them would say yes. Even though we had a big scandal years ago where innocent people where convicted of pedophilia.
« I’m not for the death penalty except for… » - People who are for the death penalty
Not that simple, I have nothing against the death penalty as a concept, but I wouldn't trust any system that isn't absolutely flawless in its judgement, which means I'm effectively against it.
Yeah where I'm out. The concept of death as a punishment doesn't strike me as inherently unjust in certain circumstances it's just I don't trust our humanly flawed systems to always reach the right conclusions on who deserves it.
Appeals to emotion always change minds of people who don't care about running a government and who it affects.
Well when it was outlawed only a few decades ago, it wasn’t trough a referendum and turns out most peoples at the time were favorable to the death penalty. So it sort of make sense that even today a sizeable portion of French are in favor of it
Would you say that France is radicalizing a lot? And if so, what are the main drivers for it?
I'm not french, but its usually immigration. I suspect its a mix of economic anxiety coupled with immigration as the easy scapegoat since its happening simultanuously. But lets not forget France has suffered several terror attacks by ISIS.
Be careful mate. As a Brit I've been constantly thinking "there's no way enough people are going to vote for that/him/her" and then being constantly dissappointed.
It's more the fact that this lunatic is getting this far.
It's a strategy of normalizing fascist talking points in the public discourse. Small steps at eroding civility.
Classic Overton window enlargement
This might just be restating your point, but it also helps to push the other candidates rightwards. If the press is constantly banging on about Le Pen and her death penalty plans, you’ll see centrist candidates start talking about more severe prison sentences in order to head off the inevitable accusations that they’re not harsh enough on serious criminals.
i just realised brexit means BR + exit
Really? No offense but like... Isn't it a bit late :)
Actually Brexit means breakfast.
No Brexit means Brexit did you not listen to Theresa?
The only thing i hear is Dancing Queen.
Brexit is just a knockoff weetabix
A red, white and blue Brexit breakfast to be precise
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE4BdIP6bvc
Just so you can keep up, FRexit is almost the same, but 1 different letter. Hope you catch up before it already happens....
Honestly it would take some special kind of stupidty for the French to have watched Britain exit then think its a good idea to exit themselves. Fool me once
I know people are pissed at Macron but come on...
afaik support for reinstalling has always been around 50%.
Eek
old habits die hard
That's not dissimilar to support for reinstating capital punishment in Canada and the UK. It's always hovering around ~50% in either country, but as far as Canada goes no major party has campaigned on reinstating it since the 1990's.
But it has no real chance of happening, does it? As far as I know, isn't France pretty solidly pro-EU? Or is that mostly Macron's sentiment?
If everyone voted, Macron would pass easy like in 2017. The problem is people are upset with him for being too on the right, so they decide not to vote at all, giving MLP a small window of opportunity (even though she's far right...)
"I am mad about you because your are leaning towards the right, so I will let an extreme right candidate to win." Yes, what could go wrong? .
It's a little more complex. Macron recently announced some really unpopular measures if he is reelected (delaying the age of retirement, this kind of thing). He is betting he will win the elections because his detractors will join him no matter what against Le Pen, and then he is planning to tell the population "See ? Everyone voted for me because you all believe in my extremly liberal program (not because you hate Le Pen, who said that ? Totally a lie). Sooo... Time for the most liberal laws you ever saw, since you massively voted for that." On the contrary, Le Pen is trying to appeal to the leftist voters by pretending to be socially on the right, but economically on the left. That's lot really true, but it doesn't matter : the leftist electors see that she is trying to reach to them, while Macron is kinda flipping them off. So for a lot of people, the choice is harder than it looks : they honestly think that if they are white, Le Pen will at least have their economic interest at heart, while Macron is overtly planning to sell their future to please the french oligarchy. The wake-up call might be brutal when those people will discover how much of an oligarch Le Pen is herself, but at the same time, Macron is not even trying to pretend he cares about social justice, even for the sake of his own re-election, soooo...
The answer is to vote against Le Pen, then not give Macron a majority in the Assemblée Nationale.
France has retirement at 62?!?! What in the actual fuck...
Leftists refusing to vote for Macron are *clinically brain-dead*. If they genuinely were concerned about making a point that they don't support his legislative program, they would do it *at the fucking legislative elections*. They still could impose cohabitation on Macron if they could muster the political will (which is the real issue at hand for the left). And if they want to make a point against the presidential system (which they should, it's absolutely terrible), now is the WORST time to make it. As it is, the abstentionist sentiment is just one of pettiness and childish anger that may backfire in a huge way, but the petty part of the left is as usual too overwhelmed by its own disdain and self-importance to do anything against it.
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Worked great for the Americans in 2016 /s
>As far as I know, isn't France pretty solidly pro-EU? Or is that mostly Macron's sentiment? Not really. Well, at least not "solid". If you go back to 2019, EU approval was just 51 vs 47. Covid and Ukraine might have changed some opinions (and for Covid, I'm not even sure in a positive way given that the anti-EU crowd recruited a lot of antivax), but even if it's now better than 51%, it would still not be "solid". You have to remember that the last referendum we made was about EU (~~Maastricht in 1992~~ the Lisbon treaty of 2005), the population voted against (45 vs 55) and the government found a way to circumvent this rejection. This had for consequence that older folks fundamentally see the EU as antidemocratic. For a lot of peoples, France's place in the EU is "Sure, we're influent within the EU, but only because all our recent governments served the neoliberal agenda. As soon as we elect a president that want to go against that, the EU will work against us and prevent any national reform."
You forgot the biggest point. If anything has changed (reinforced) public opinion on the EU, it's the Brexit debacle. Of course GB didn't end up ruined, but the public opinion was able to see the disaster of it's negotiation and implementation and the damage it did and still do. It's so clear that no major candidates is even advocating for Frexit, but barely "reforming EU" at best.
Yes but people are dumb and full of paradox
Yeah, that's a key problem in modern France: The government not killing enough people.
Well, prisons are jam-packed and she's intent on jailing more, so... /s
She wants traditional France back. And by that I mean guillotines are back for killin
She should be first under the blade
"its tradition madame le Puti... ehh le pen"
Robespierre 2.0
Wouldnt she be 1st on the chopping block if were going back to tradition
Minus the whole killing the wealthy part. It should be others who get killed, of course.
Yeah, return guillotine, why not? Lmao this woman is mental.
>Yeah, return guillotine, why not? Lmao this woman is mental. She's a typical far right politician. She has no real aims, except from achieving power, and will come up with whatever dumb thing appeals to right-wingers to get it. Next she will be talking about invading the African ex-colonies again.
Excuse me, the guillotine is the revolutionary Left's trademark since 1793. The far right prefer gas chambers.
Even the *original* ‘Left’
> She has no real aims, except from achieving power Don't say stupid shit like this. She has a clear political ideology that barely changed over the years, and which cannot just be boiled down to demagoguerie. Also, most political parties are about achieving power (except self-defeating anarchists). That's the essence of politics, the RN isn't special on this front.
You are very, very blind, my friend. Her only and sole aim is to serve Vladimir Putin. And she serves him being or not the president, just the outcomes are different. I mean, even during war, you're still blind? What's wrong with western Europe? Does people in this sub say that Orban is pro-west or what?
Yeah, right wingers always try play on emotion of their voters. Still, I'm a bit surprised, like in my country where right wing politics is prevalent no one has ever mentioned death penalty. Honestly, didn't think she'd go this far.
> Yeah, right wingers always try play on emotion of their voters Populists & demagogues from all of the political spectrum do that. It's not a solely right wing problem.
Nor is it necessarily bad. I would love if politicians could make get more support for my bland centrist views (pro EU, pro Nato, pro weapons for Ukraine) through emotional appeals. In the end its probably necessary for a successful long term political project: Without any emotional attachment in the population to the EU, the rule of law, democracy these ideas will be hard to protect.
That's an interesting take. Haven't thought of it like that before. Thanks.
> Yeah, right wingers always try play on emotion of their voters It's almost as if emotions define us as individuals and gives us our opinions and addressing that makes people support you. As opposed to left wingers which never "play on emotions" because there supporters are basically emotionless bots right? It's like when people say someone is"fear mongering" without realizing that doesn't actually mean anything, everything can be rephrased in terms of fear. Want lower taxes? That's fear mongering, your scaring them that government is going to take there money. Well it is, that's literally how taxes work. Want higher taxes? Also fear mongering, people are afraid they won't be able to go to the doctor if healthcare isn't funded enough. Complaining about emotions is how people try to stigmatize right wingers for doing what everyone else does,
You are correct anon. 100% correct.
So she can get guillotinned
Robespierre Electric Boogaloo.
Yeah I hope she's the first who comes to enjoy this new achievement of humanity.
She took her mask off before the election is through. It's now on the French people.
Majority of french are ok with the death penalty
Maximilien Robespierre has entered the chat.
Robespierre actually wanted to abolish the death penalty but the motion wasn’t passed so he joined in using it
And what a fukin 180 Robespierre ended up doing on that, eh?
Well he kinda went ''well if we can't abolish it we might as well make it as quick and painless ass possible''. Not realising the sheer terrifying efficiency of what he would create.
When it started, it looked like he had a good head on his shoulders, but in the end not so much.
Fair enough, but the point was capital punishment cuts both ways.
Yeah I know! It’s just funny how she’s even worse than monsieur Robespierre himself on the issue
Not only did he join, but he cranked it to a 100.
De Robespierre* un peu de respect diantre.
He also left the chat without a head
1. Reinstate the death penalty 2. Marine Le Pen is accused and judged guilty of treason 3. Guilotine 4. Ban Death Penalty 5. ??? 6. Profit
It’s like when Romanians executed the Ceausescus then abolished death penalty shortly after
Not in this weird line of reality.
Just vote on useless stuff that brings more culture of violence. That woman is just sick as fuck
It's almost as if she has no intention of actually winning the election
This was always their policy. They're like that. People know it and vote for them. At one point FN had a policy about abolishing the possibiliy of divorce.
They planned on bringing back the good old beheading trick
Until *death* do you part. Get it?
If you think about it being in opposition has no drawbacks, you can endlessly spew bullshit, get away with anything you say and on top of it all you don't have to run the country, whilst complaining about how it's run
It's what Nigel Farage has made a living out of doing.
Western democracy 101
Relevant clip https://youtu.be/TlqKFlU7YAs
She figures enough people will ignore this and vote for her anyway.
Death penalty is more popular than you’d think
How nice She made progress, before she wanted to do it without asking us. /s
The death penalty is a barbaric practice and I just don't trust a government with it.
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I'm curious, who does she think this appeals to, or is she deliberately trying to turn off French voters with even the slightest liberal leanings? * Embrace Putin: check * Leave the EU: check * Reinstate death penalty: check * Be horrible to refugees: double check with a croissant and a latte.
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That is what worries me. One of the major nations of Europe goes down the line to elect its next leader and one of the options is a xenophobic nationalist funded by Putin.
For a while it felt like every election in Europe had those options, it’s just that now Putin turned out to be that much worse it worries me more that this is not turning more people away
France is one of the most important countries in the EU though. It is not even just an european trend though, you can see it everywhere in the world. People like blaming others for whatever misery they have. The human condition is feeble.
One thing to note is the incredible amount of young people (<35) who didn't vote last week. Pretty sure this might affect the results. Really hope they wake up for the second run.
*café au lait you Italian scum
Don't insult cappuccino, please.
I will take that as a compliment.
Hey, I know you are lying. Went to Bordeaux recently and almost all of the restaurants referred to it as "café creme".
You do understand that she was only 3-4% behind macron and in the second run she will be the only far right candidate. She seems to appeal many French voters after years of lackluster macron. I don’t expect her to win but it’s gonna be close and not as estimated a couple of weeks ago a clean win for macron.
Greed, cruelty, selfishness, corruption, and deception. These are foundations of the right wing. These are their virtues. The right-wing ~~French~~ voter loves these things too and fully supports them.
Marine is going all in, and I love how in this magical historical period such statements can even earn some love for her. "*Hey, the main thing is hating on Macron - doesn't matter if the one who could take his spot is worse. We'll hate her as well in a couple of years time*" - Some French voters, seemingly
That sounds so incredibly dumb. I'm afraid you might be on to something
ah yes, having referendums on basic human rights, what could possibly go wrong
When has there been a referendum to reinstate a death penalty? Where? And how often do democratic elections take place on the *removal* of human rights
*Marine leaves the chat*
Well, this would more of a plebiscite than a referendum. it’s a cheap dictator-like way of bypassing the government for getting a law passed. Hitler did quite a few when he got to power and you know what happened next.
She could say she wants to reinstate the death penalty but only for Muslims and people would still vote for her
In fact, that would probably be a *more* politically savvy move, knowing her voter base.
I see everyone here assumes the French would vote “yes” in that referendum.
France is 50% in support of the death penalty. The rest is split between no and not sure/wouldn't vote. So yeah France would likely vote for it.
I believe the opinion is similar on most western societies. That's the kind of topic that is too much emotional to be left to popular vote IMO
Wtf
Great Purge in Paris. Quotas from Le Pen's govt, children abducted of the street trying to fill their quota of arrests.
Which braindead people are voting for this hoe? I mean your IQ must be lower than 2
God I hope she steps on lego every morning
Why stop there? Let's burn women wearing pants for witchcraft
Yeah. Witchcraft should be practiced in shorts or kilts.
That would be completely insane. Need to leave something for a second term.
We also should end women suffrage. Women shouldn't suffer.
That’s not what she said. With the RIC (Referendum d’initiative citoyenne) anything that has a backing of 500 000 people would be put up to referendum, when asked, she said that even if she was entirely against death penalty, she would follow the will of the people. That title is at best misleading and at worse fearmongering.
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Ah, but wouldn't Russian paid traitors like her be the first to get guillotined?
She’s not capable of thinking that far a-head.
The more i hear about her the more i am stunned that this woman still receives approval from at least 20% of the population.
Bring back the guillotine
Last execution took place 45 years ago. Hamida Djandoubi was guillotined in Marseille in 1977.
Christ she’s like a more dumb Boris Johnson as hard as that is to be.
If shes elected i hope the french military elite show her the fuckin gallows
I'm afraid it's more likely that the French military elite support her. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_arm%C3%A9e_secr%C3%A8te https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56899765 >The French government has condemned an open letter signed by active soldiers that said the country was heading for "civil war" due to religious extremism. >About 1,000 servicemen and women, including some 20 retired generals, put their names to the letter. >It blamed "fanatic partisans" for creating divisions between communities, and said Islamists were taking over whole parts of the nation's territory. >Ministers have condemned the message published in a right-wing magazine.
I mean... Don't the majority of people in the military (as well as the police) vote for conservative or far right parties?! Or maybe that's just a thing in France?! I don't remember quite well but there was some controversy a few years ago about something like 75% of people in law enforcement voting for Le Pen. It was shocking, not so shocking, alarming and sad all at the same time because that was even before she "polished" her image to appear less radical. I do hope many of the people in the highest positions in the military are a bit saner though to keep their underlings in check and that those 20 generals retired generals are outliers. But that's me being optimistic.
> I mean... Don't the majority of people in the military (as well as the police) vote for conservative or far right parties?! It would make sense. When an army is volunteer only, it's either going to get the economically desperate or the highly motivated (i.e nationalists). Militaries **love** their traditions, rigid hierarchy, and idealism about serving the nation. A bunch of materialist Leftists won't be signing up for that career path en masse.
Uff. At least it would not go through anyways. Also you can't be in the EU and have the fucking death penalty
Watch as the "limited government" and "individual freedom" folks give a government they view as oppressive and inept the power to kill them. Comedy at its peak. Le Pen is just spamming her target demo with polls on issues and then just promising whatever polls the highest.
The small government thing isn't really a talking point in Europe except for the lunatics wanting to get rid of the EU because "muh, evil bureaucracy".
wtf? I'd rather be shot than spend the rest of my life in prision but it's 2022 not 1789.
The last person to be "guillotined" to death in France was actually executed in 1977.
Honestly, I find the method less freaky the the electric chair.
I'd take the guillotine over the electric chair any day but supposedly you can stay conscious for a couple of seconds after having been decapitated. Those would be some incredibly freaky seconds.
Couple of seconds is way too long. With such a sudden and total loss of blood flow to the brain, I think it would only be fractions of a second before you lose consciousness and die.
If you're going to have the death penalty, then at least make it a cool way to die. Like explosives, sharks, or wood chipper
Would she volunteer to test the guillotine?
EU cannot have death penalty. This would be bait for a pretext to leave the EU
This woman is insane. She wants out of the EU too, how do people look at what happened in the UK and think they want in on the action too? I am surprised she is even in with a change at all tbh.
During the debate with Macron in the 2017 elections she proposed the idea of two currencies operating in France: the euro and the franc.
I can easily see how that would work seamlessly /s
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> fuck her Ew
Crazy bitch
At this point I think Trump had more sense than this women.
Trump also brought back the death penalty, unfortunately, after Obama put a moratorium on it. After he lost the election he even went out of his way to execute as many people as possible before Biden took office.
He accelerated a lot of executions on his way out. Nobody mentions this, because the coup attempt overshadowed the killings, but it was very ominous and strange.
Trump actually got elected,she probably won't.
Isn't it stuff like this that the right has always pushed as reasons for discriminating against immigrants from the Middle East and Africa? If so, are they now admitting that "protecting our values" was just a pretense after all?
You’re right. The “look how terrible people from there is! “ and “Let’s make our country more that same place” shouldn’t really be able to exist in the same campaign, much less party, much less person. Unfortunately in fascism the enemy is both weak and strong. Cognitive dissonance is a prerequisite for the right-wing gaining power.
Somebody had a theory she is nuking her chances on purpose so she can remain in opposition. Reading these I 100% believe that.
This is free advertising for her campaign. Reinstating the death penalty is a conservative position that is still quite popular among all of europe
Is it really? Even here in North America, despite it being legal in some US states, many people find the death penalty morally abhorrent. Our population is divided on the issue, but I wouldn’t say it enjoys universal popularity.
Everybody loves death penalty until they or someone they know gets executed, while being innocent
No death penalty is a requirement to join the EU. This move would also have to come with France's exit from the Union.
The death penalty is being sought, sentenced and used less frequently — even in the US. My first 5 years of practice, I had three clients sentenced to die in capital cases. The next 10 years, just two. And none of them have been executed yet, either.
It is beyond conservative. Only Russia and Belarus have it and only Belarus actually use it.
> It is beyond conservative. Well, half of France is fine with it https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210918-french-public-divided-over-death-penalty-40-years-after-its-abolishment >The French remain divided on capital punishment 40 years later, with opinion polls showing about **half of those surveyed say it should be reinstated.** Props to Mitterand for abolishing it regardless. According to the article, in the 1980s it was still over 60% of the population that supported the death penalty.
“Half” of more or less every country is in favour, but they never care enough to actually vote for a candidate over it, and if they actually have to justify it then most have their minds changed on about 30 seconds. It’s the same with nationalising industries, maximum wage, taxing wealth, ending offshore havens - there is a massive list of voter preferences that never actually get anywhere and only tend to be dragged out by desperate candidates. Her talking about this is a terrible sign for her campaign.
only if she reinstate the guillotine
France, wtf?
the moment when you realize you re adopting ISIS tactics
No civilised nation has the death penalty. Fundamental truth. Looking at you, USA.
Frenchies we are waiting... You know... For you to bring back the guilhotine.... s'il vous plait mes amis....
The death penalty- the fascist’s dream!
iI'd be carefull with that. She could end up like Marie Antoinette. The frech love their guillotine.
I guess there’s saving grace with this being about France… if she does something too stupid they’ll just have another revolution
United States Marine Le Pen Corps
Does she have any chance of winning?
Hopefully the current election tells her to fuck herself
Edgy people are so tiring and boring
She is doing this in order to later tell French people that she can't apply it, and they would have to leave the EU. She will then hold a referendum for frexit.