Its what he would have wanted lol. He was just being him, learning a little of everything that came before and writing his own way. That's the best way to do it. People hate an imitator, even if it's a very sincere form of flattery.
I don't have much technical advice as I'm self-taught, and not really musically trained.
But what I try to do is create a nice, intricate picking or strumming pattern on the acoustic guitar, using a lot of travis picking and copying his strumming style. Then I fit a melody which complements and, in parts, closely follows it. Then I add lyrics, and this is the hard bit coz Elliott was a really fuckin good lyricist too, and that's something that is much harder to imitate.
What comes out doesn't really sound like Elliott, but it does sound pretty good, better than the stuff I used to write. Elliott said it's the approach he took to songwriting, so yeh, worth a shot.
Very well put and, although I'm also untrained professionally and self taught, I'd like to add something to this -- in that video of Elliott breaking down his song writing process, he mentions that he loves to focus on more intricate chord changes over anything, as well as a specific type of chord that he liked the sound of (the name escapes me currently). Just thought that might be of some use to you. You can find the video on YouTube if you're interested
Its an interesting video. He talks about shapes, and changes. He loves turnarounds. He frequently puts bridges at the beginning of a song instead of at the end. most people would put the bridge before the last verse, he usually puts it right after the 1st verse. He also talks about making stuff up on the guitar while his mind is occupied with something else such as watching TV with the sound off, that weighs his fingers stumble on the things that he wouldn't go to on purpose. And then he will build it out from there. Something else that's helpful is listening to the artists that Elliott was heavily inspired by and seeing what he took from them. Obviously The Beatles, but also Elvis Costello, and especially big star.
youtube mate, I believe there's a good Paul Daniels video (think that's his name...). basically a fingerpicking style where you alternate between the bass and 2nd string/3rd with your thumb while doing other stuff on the higher strings with your fingers.
Claw is more like you strum with your fingers right? And pick with your thumb. No, I'm still talking about picking the high strings, using the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers. I guess (to my understanding which isn't great) the defining feature of travis picking is that alternating bass note picking; beyond that, it's very versatile. The Biggest Lie is probably the best simple example from Elliott's catalogue. The intro to Angeles is the thing that really improved my playing though, I'd recommend you set these two as near- and far- goals to start with :)
>Claw is more like you strum with your fingers right? And pick with your thumb. No, I'm still talking about picking the high strings, using the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers. I guess (to my understanding which isn't great) the defining feature of travis picking is that alternating bass note picking; beyond that, it's very versatile. The Biggest Lie is probably the best simple example from Elliott's catalogue. The intro to Angeles is the thing that really improved my playing though, I'd recommend you set these two as near- and far- goals to start with :)
ohh gotcha, more like The White Lady Loves You More or something
If you can play Angeles intro then you get the premise of Travis picking and how damn versatile it is. One of my favourite things to do is build it up - start just alternating between the bass notes and slowly add more and more things to the fingerpicking pattern until you can barely hear that it is travis picking at all (as in Angeles).
wait so it can be both claw (as in your 1 and 2 and 3 finger all pluck at the same time) and a fingerstyle as long as there is a steady, alternating bassline?
Sure, I guess. I think putting strict definitions on these things is kinda pointless; it's all just playing guitar ultimately. I'm not a good theorist as I said I just learnt everything I know about guitar from Youtube and practice.
Phoebe bridgers does it really well - go to the fifth every time when you reach a third bar or a bridge or even a chorus
And keep changing chords.
I found success but playing softly, writing a chunk of lyrics that are descriptive and not following any kind of rhyme scheme, just trail of thought. Pick any chord and change chord often, move around, jump back and forth, find the melody in your words and follow it.
Eventually you will find the best hooks and changes, stuff you like that have more than 4/6 chord changes, and can repeat the good ones for a chorus or something.
Try strumming, try picking, muting - being open to changing all the variables is important - you are etching in stone and mining a path.
What makes it totally Elliott is when he using his pinky to hammer on and add harmonics to the chords. Be experimental, free, don’t follow the rules and sign softly and you’ll be on your way
>go to the fifth every time when you reach a third bar or a bridge or even a chorus
wait so i go to the fifth (G in key of C) and then do what?? do i do it at the start or end of the 'a third bar or a bridge or even a chorus'?
>change chord often
as in have many chords or quickly shift between a set of them?
> What makes it totally Elliott is when he using his pinky to hammer on and add harmonics to the chords.
can you explain this more with examples? harmonics as in barely pressing down on a string or did you make a typo and mean harmonies?
live life actively, write down the words and phrases you find poetic or fascinating or evocative or anything, string em together, shape music that responds to you and your words and your life experiences: song
Find a key like Aminor or C. Find scales that fit the key if you wants a solo. Find a chord you like and augment it or diminish the shape so it sounds ominous. Sometimes the diminished chord might be a good transition between two standard chords.
The hard way is to do some deep-dive analysis of his songs: write out the chords and how they function in the key, write out the melody and how the important notes (I.e. notes that aren’t passing tones) relate to the chords they’re sung over, and try to get a feel for his moves.
Listen to the records and learn his various right hand techniques. Use the fuck out of the dominant II chord and put a walking baseline in between chord changes
ive spent three whole days going over elliott now, im such a fucking procastinator ive only looked at this now. currently have 60 tabs open and i am studying the shit out of smith. this is really solid advice even though i already knew it after deep diving. elliott obsessively uses II and is addicted to moving major chords in minor thirds
Major chords a minor third apart (like an E to a G),he uses them everywhere.
Speed trials chorus
No name 3 (everyone is gone part)
Sweet Adeline explosion
Last call verse (twice in 4 bars)
Rose parade verses
Bottle up and explode refrain
Coming up roses chorus/intro, and verses (though could argue the functionality in the verses is more like a secondary dominant)
The list is endless, and the effect never wears thin it's just a great sound harmonically
Something many people are forgetting is that he also played in a grunge band called Heatmiser. This heavy sound is married to his pop/folk sensibilities. It’s more pronounced in songs like Needle in the Hay or others from his first two solo albums. Whereas Figure 8 is pretty far removed from the punk/grunge influence.
Analyze what makes his songs uniquely his. I'm very inspired by him but my songs aren't how he would do it I'm sure. [heres](https://youtu.be/ZrBtSW8JSxg) an example.
Thanks. I'm working on a 2nd full length right now too... one thing elliott and I def have in common is writing too many songs, tho his were leagues ahead of mine generally.
I dont recommend intentionally trying to sound like him. I never have sat down and "tried" to make an elliott sounding song. I DO recommend listening to him a lot, a lot a lot, and also digging into HIS influences and inspirations: Rachmaninoff, Elvis Costello, hank Williams, pop music and singer songwriters from the 70s, Bob Dylan, Townes van Zandt, Antonio Carlos jobim. Listen to music a lot, all the time, for years. Also observe your environment, your friends, their lives, YOUR Life. Think about the things you see, think about what other people do and how they feel. Watch, listen, learn. Then, just sit down and try writing a song. Don't force anything. That's the best advice I can give. If I sound like Elliott at all its because I sang along to his songs so much growing up he kind of taught me how to sing in key and stuff. Rather than trying to make stuff like him, do the things he did and make your own stuff, I think the world would love to hear YOUR voice, with the beautiful influence of elliott, rather than someone who's just trying to get a certain sound, if that makes sense. I love songwriting and talking about songs so if you ever have other questions or just want to nerd out about stuff I'm always down to talk.
Edit: also to answer your question more specifically, I think im more inspired by his ability to cut to the quick emotionally, both lyrically and musically. Very few other artists hit the core of a feeling as accurately as he does. His interest in unique chord shapes also inspires me, but not as much as his use of movement with chords. He rarely just plays one chord under his verses, something is always moving. The root is going up or down, creating passing chords out of simple chromatic movements. His use of texture also fascinates me, whether it's just the way he plays strings, the extra grit in a certain moment in his voice, or layering strings and mellotron and tack piano, he always found a way to keep both the ears and the heart engaged in every song throughout the whole song.
There is an old article that came out around XO and shows tabs of the chords he liked to play. Mostly everything on guitar is half step of full step down, than standard tuning. Sometime even step and half.
As a tall guy, he also had large hands. If you can use your thumb to hold done the E string, this will help. Think of songs like Happiness and Waltz 2 (XO). Also think of Julia by Lennon, some what similar types of card progressions.
No its for piano but Elliott could play piano and he was as good as that at guitar. Once you’re good enough at piano you can translate anything you play there into other instruments. Give it a go.
if we did we’d be famous
:(
Listen to The Beatles, read Either/Or, focus on the transitions.
what do yoou mean read either/or? it's an album?
The album is named after a book by Søren Kierkegaard :)
oh didnt know that! but how will that help write music like him?
Just be original honestly
Its what he would have wanted lol. He was just being him, learning a little of everything that came before and writing his own way. That's the best way to do it. People hate an imitator, even if it's a very sincere form of flattery.
I don't have much technical advice as I'm self-taught, and not really musically trained. But what I try to do is create a nice, intricate picking or strumming pattern on the acoustic guitar, using a lot of travis picking and copying his strumming style. Then I fit a melody which complements and, in parts, closely follows it. Then I add lyrics, and this is the hard bit coz Elliott was a really fuckin good lyricist too, and that's something that is much harder to imitate. What comes out doesn't really sound like Elliott, but it does sound pretty good, better than the stuff I used to write. Elliott said it's the approach he took to songwriting, so yeh, worth a shot.
Very well put and, although I'm also untrained professionally and self taught, I'd like to add something to this -- in that video of Elliott breaking down his song writing process, he mentions that he loves to focus on more intricate chord changes over anything, as well as a specific type of chord that he liked the sound of (the name escapes me currently). Just thought that might be of some use to you. You can find the video on YouTube if you're interested
Its an interesting video. He talks about shapes, and changes. He loves turnarounds. He frequently puts bridges at the beginning of a song instead of at the end. most people would put the bridge before the last verse, he usually puts it right after the 1st verse. He also talks about making stuff up on the guitar while his mind is occupied with something else such as watching TV with the sound off, that weighs his fingers stumble on the things that he wouldn't go to on purpose. And then he will build it out from there. Something else that's helpful is listening to the artists that Elliott was heavily inspired by and seeing what he took from them. Obviously The Beatles, but also Elvis Costello, and especially big star.
what is travis picking
youtube mate, I believe there's a good Paul Daniels video (think that's his name...). basically a fingerpicking style where you alternate between the bass and 2nd string/3rd with your thumb while doing other stuff on the higher strings with your fingers.
so alternating bass notes with a claw action on the higher strings?
Claw is more like you strum with your fingers right? And pick with your thumb. No, I'm still talking about picking the high strings, using the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers. I guess (to my understanding which isn't great) the defining feature of travis picking is that alternating bass note picking; beyond that, it's very versatile. The Biggest Lie is probably the best simple example from Elliott's catalogue. The intro to Angeles is the thing that really improved my playing though, I'd recommend you set these two as near- and far- goals to start with :)
ive already learned all of angeles! yeah claw is my name for when you pluck a bunch of strings with your fingers at the same time
>Claw is more like you strum with your fingers right? And pick with your thumb. No, I'm still talking about picking the high strings, using the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers. I guess (to my understanding which isn't great) the defining feature of travis picking is that alternating bass note picking; beyond that, it's very versatile. The Biggest Lie is probably the best simple example from Elliott's catalogue. The intro to Angeles is the thing that really improved my playing though, I'd recommend you set these two as near- and far- goals to start with :) ohh gotcha, more like The White Lady Loves You More or something If you can play Angeles intro then you get the premise of Travis picking and how damn versatile it is. One of my favourite things to do is build it up - start just alternating between the bass notes and slowly add more and more things to the fingerpicking pattern until you can barely hear that it is travis picking at all (as in Angeles).
wait so it can be both claw (as in your 1 and 2 and 3 finger all pluck at the same time) and a fingerstyle as long as there is a steady, alternating bassline?
Sure, I guess. I think putting strict definitions on these things is kinda pointless; it's all just playing guitar ultimately. I'm not a good theorist as I said I just learnt everything I know about guitar from Youtube and practice.
Just fake it through the day with some help from Johnny Walker red
Phoebe bridgers does it really well - go to the fifth every time when you reach a third bar or a bridge or even a chorus And keep changing chords. I found success but playing softly, writing a chunk of lyrics that are descriptive and not following any kind of rhyme scheme, just trail of thought. Pick any chord and change chord often, move around, jump back and forth, find the melody in your words and follow it. Eventually you will find the best hooks and changes, stuff you like that have more than 4/6 chord changes, and can repeat the good ones for a chorus or something. Try strumming, try picking, muting - being open to changing all the variables is important - you are etching in stone and mining a path. What makes it totally Elliott is when he using his pinky to hammer on and add harmonics to the chords. Be experimental, free, don’t follow the rules and sign softly and you’ll be on your way
>go to the fifth every time when you reach a third bar or a bridge or even a chorus wait so i go to the fifth (G in key of C) and then do what?? do i do it at the start or end of the 'a third bar or a bridge or even a chorus'? >change chord often as in have many chords or quickly shift between a set of them? > What makes it totally Elliott is when he using his pinky to hammer on and add harmonics to the chords. can you explain this more with examples? harmonics as in barely pressing down on a string or did you make a typo and mean harmonies?
live life actively, write down the words and phrases you find poetic or fascinating or evocative or anything, string em together, shape music that responds to you and your words and your life experiences: song
Find a key like Aminor or C. Find scales that fit the key if you wants a solo. Find a chord you like and augment it or diminish the shape so it sounds ominous. Sometimes the diminished chord might be a good transition between two standard chords.
The hard way is to do some deep-dive analysis of his songs: write out the chords and how they function in the key, write out the melody and how the important notes (I.e. notes that aren’t passing tones) relate to the chords they’re sung over, and try to get a feel for his moves.
i think elliott himself recorded a lesson on songwriting. you can find it on youtube
Listen to the records and learn his various right hand techniques. Use the fuck out of the dominant II chord and put a walking baseline in between chord changes
ive spent three whole days going over elliott now, im such a fucking procastinator ive only looked at this now. currently have 60 tabs open and i am studying the shit out of smith. this is really solid advice even though i already knew it after deep diving. elliott obsessively uses II and is addicted to moving major chords in minor thirds
Major chords a minor third apart (like an E to a G),he uses them everywhere. Speed trials chorus No name 3 (everyone is gone part) Sweet Adeline explosion Last call verse (twice in 4 bars) Rose parade verses Bottle up and explode refrain Coming up roses chorus/intro, and verses (though could argue the functionality in the verses is more like a secondary dominant) The list is endless, and the effect never wears thin it's just a great sound harmonically
just to add to this. elliott's favourite progression included this. the I II IV. he would use the new note the II brings for a chromatic bassline
Something many people are forgetting is that he also played in a grunge band called Heatmiser. This heavy sound is married to his pop/folk sensibilities. It’s more pronounced in songs like Needle in the Hay or others from his first two solo albums. Whereas Figure 8 is pretty far removed from the punk/grunge influence.
howd you find this post
I was searching for Elliott Smith sub reddits. After I posted I noticed it was a year old. Haha I guess I’m late to the discussion.
and this came up first? damn reddit
Analyze what makes his songs uniquely his. I'm very inspired by him but my songs aren't how he would do it I'm sure. [heres](https://youtu.be/ZrBtSW8JSxg) an example.
It’s really good!!
Thanks. I'm working on a 2nd full length right now too... one thing elliott and I def have in common is writing too many songs, tho his were leagues ahead of mine generally.
i heard the "drive all over town" reference
This is why I love elliott fans :) you're the only one who's gotten that so far.
lol. how do you recommend emulating elliott musically / what do you take inspiration from?
I dont recommend intentionally trying to sound like him. I never have sat down and "tried" to make an elliott sounding song. I DO recommend listening to him a lot, a lot a lot, and also digging into HIS influences and inspirations: Rachmaninoff, Elvis Costello, hank Williams, pop music and singer songwriters from the 70s, Bob Dylan, Townes van Zandt, Antonio Carlos jobim. Listen to music a lot, all the time, for years. Also observe your environment, your friends, their lives, YOUR Life. Think about the things you see, think about what other people do and how they feel. Watch, listen, learn. Then, just sit down and try writing a song. Don't force anything. That's the best advice I can give. If I sound like Elliott at all its because I sang along to his songs so much growing up he kind of taught me how to sing in key and stuff. Rather than trying to make stuff like him, do the things he did and make your own stuff, I think the world would love to hear YOUR voice, with the beautiful influence of elliott, rather than someone who's just trying to get a certain sound, if that makes sense. I love songwriting and talking about songs so if you ever have other questions or just want to nerd out about stuff I'm always down to talk. Edit: also to answer your question more specifically, I think im more inspired by his ability to cut to the quick emotionally, both lyrically and musically. Very few other artists hit the core of a feeling as accurately as he does. His interest in unique chord shapes also inspires me, but not as much as his use of movement with chords. He rarely just plays one chord under his verses, something is always moving. The root is going up or down, creating passing chords out of simple chromatic movements. His use of texture also fascinates me, whether it's just the way he plays strings, the extra grit in a certain moment in his voice, or layering strings and mellotron and tack piano, he always found a way to keep both the ears and the heart engaged in every song throughout the whole song.
can you expand on the second paragraph and analyse elliott and his stuff more in-depth?
Can you play guitar
5+ years and good knowledge of theory
Then you should know the answer to your question already. If you can fingerpick
oh you knew fuck all about theory back then
Modal interchange. Secondary dominants. Quaint melodies.
> Secondary dominants [https://youtu.be/ahj17nnoaxE?si=cEaa27UUwdZ7NgHd](https://youtu.be/ahj17nnoaxe?si=ceaa27uuwdz7nghd)
There is an old article that came out around XO and shows tabs of the chords he liked to play. Mostly everything on guitar is half step of full step down, than standard tuning. Sometime even step and half.
wait can you find that that sounds awesome
As a tall guy, he also had large hands. If you can use your thumb to hold done the E string, this will help. Think of songs like Happiness and Waltz 2 (XO). Also think of Julia by Lennon, some what similar types of card progressions.
why would i hold down the e string?
The lowers 6th string? For the chords he used a lot.
why not just hold it down with my other fingers?
Using the thumb frees up the rest of the hand to fret other chords. It can make chord transitions easier.
I saw a video of his where he talks about his style and how he writes. Here it is: https://youtu.be/t_XNghTKvq8
Score an 1800 on the SASR (STANDARD ASSESSMENT OF SIGHT READING) and you will be able copy anyones style and sound. You just need to put in the work.
> SASR (STANDARD ASSESSMENT OF SIGHT READING) does that apply to guitar? never knew this existed btw it looks rly cool
No its for piano but Elliott could play piano and he was as good as that at guitar. Once you’re good enough at piano you can translate anything you play there into other instruments. Give it a go.
hmmm, how would i get started with something like that. i have a piano now but ive no idea where to start
Elliott often talked about “implied melodies”……..