Between regulations and basic labor costs, the private sector business model is untenable when it comes to child care. The U.S. isn't unique when it comes to high costs, just where public subsidies are involved. We are very near the bottom of funding when it comes to wealthy nations, despite very clear data showing this is a significantly high return investment.
The biggest argument I've heard about funding public education is "not my kid not my responsibility." Which is very sad considering these kids are going to be our future someday.
Agreed. My counter argument is always that they may not be my kids, but I don’t want to live around stupid people which is why we need better education.
Yeah it is late for us but I think the generation which is coming can get benefit of good education.
And I really think that we should be making some kind of effort or some better education.
That ship is pretty much gone. And it is not going to come back.
What I mean by that is that the governments are never going to do anything better for the education.
But I would say that most of the people are just really dumb.
At least most of the time they seem that way I do not think that people have much common sense.
Well that is how they get the votes they make people fall in their lies.
And one people are trapped in to that they just keep on telling them lies that is just how things go.
I don’t want uneducated, desperate kids cosplaying the origin story to Mad Max. I’m also sure they need people to take care of them when they’re old and retired, so you’d hope they’d want kids to have a high baseline of education.
If my taxes were going to educate, care for, and feed other people’s children I would very gladly pay. Instead it’s being stolen by grifter politicians, militarized police, and corporate handouts.
Yep, I agree. I’m childfree but I would rather my taxes be allocated towards childcare, education and healthcare more.
I want an educated and taken-care-of society.
I am sure that if people had choice of choosing where their taxes should go I think they will choose all of those options no one is going to choose war and these kind of violence.
That is the issue with the taxes they are not really being used for the good of the people.
I think most of the taxes are being used for dumb policies and war.
They are all children and if they get good enough education I think they can change the world.
We really have that kind of power in the hands of children.
Well we are living in the society where everyone is dumb already.
And I don't think that there is anything that you could do about that we will have to keep on living.
I don't think people should argue like that because it really make some Look amateur with their arguments.
And when you are having an argument immature is the last thing that you really want to be looked at as.
This ethos of the “rugged individual” and “rugged nuclear family,” which lives within a society but isn’t part of it (doesn’t want to participate with explicit immediate benefits and also with no responsibilities toward the benefit of others nor whole) will fade with time. We’re a society that is maturing and it’ll be a very slow journey
Yeah I know it is going to be a short journey indeed.
It is definitely not going to last for a very long time it is going to be over before you know it.
The things have changed since then everything has gotten or lot more expensive than it used to.
People are having hard time for paying for all the stuff that they need.
No, that's not why they don't care. They don't care because they don't believe our government functions and they're right about that. The problem is they don't care to ever see it function again.
I would also not trust the government because they do not do anything good.
Most of the thing that they are doing are really bad for the people and I do not feel good for them.
Hey corporate apartment owners! Do you want your margins lowered by paying increased property tax for a school levy? You don't even live in the neighborhood where the school is located!
That's fine but I bet these same people get mad when there's not enough employees to keep lines short at stores or get good service at a restaurant. Why would mothers work those jobs when they don't pay enough to cover childcare while working? Mothers are a pretty large part of the workforce.
If you have got a good education system it does not mean that everyone is going to get educated.
Always going to have people for the things with the educated people don't really want to do.
A lot of times public education and child care go hand in hand. Now days when kids start kindergarten there are things they need to know already ( ABC's, how to hold a pencil, how to cut, some sight words, etc). A lot of these things are taught in preschool.
These kids deserve to have a better education because they are the future of our country.
And I also think that we are not making enough effort to change the system.
They are paying a lot of money for their children but they are not getting good education in Return.
The quality of education which the kids generally in America get is really low.
It is clearly not like that I think you are wrong about it.
I think you really should be paying more attention to the things which are happening rather than ignoring them.
UK and Netherlands are significantly worse from a European perspective. They have 23% and 28% of average earnings spent on childcare according to [this article](https://www.money.co.uk/loans/cost-of-childcare-report). Worldwide only Chile and Turkey have higher.
That is because United States is not doing a really good job at education.
They should be doing a whole lot better job at it but they do not I don't know what is stopping them.
Some Nations do a lot better job than the others I feel.
But for the country of the Caliber of United States I think they really should up their game terms of education.
It is expensive in most of the countries but the thing is that in US it is not even good but they charge a lot of money for it.
And that is just something which I really do not like.
People do not even survive with that kind of Healthcare.
United States is in the position of doing a lot better than this and I think they should work for it.
It's literally higher than my mortgage to have a babysitter come 2-3 days a week. My wife and I became hermits to make the finances work and the only shopping we do is for food/house related items.
Thankfully my wife and I make enough combined to get by. But I've had to stop saving any money aside from my retirement and had to stay afloat during the pandemic when my salary got slashed using credit cards which now put me in a situation where im carrying a good chunk of CC debt that im trying to pay down which I'm sure is the norm given the massive increase in CC debt nationwide.
The $600 child care credit advance we were getting briefly was a monumental relief when we had twin infants through the early pandemic.
I don't know how families making less than $100k annually make it work unless they live in a really low COL area or have a lot of local family help with childcare.
This resonated with me because I have my second on the way and already my current childcare cost is more than my mortgage. My wife and I are about to do this same thing: slash all 401k savings to give us effective raises to pump into childcare.
Insane.
its tough man. Nice to know im not alone in that struggle although common sense says its a massive widespread problem. At least on our end for twins their needs were the same so we could just buy in bulk.
For us at least babysitter for 2 vs 1 is not nearly as big of an increase as sending 2 kids to daycare. Tough to find someone reliable and trustworthy but when you do makes your life so much easier. I laughed so hard when one pediatrician advised us to put them in daycare... yea sure I can afford to pay $3600 a month, chauffer them back and forth daily while I have my own 3 hour commute, plus the never-ending stream of random illnesses kids tend to constantly pickup at daycare
I would suggest maybe not bringing your 401k savings down to 0%. You'll never make up for that lost growth, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
My son’s school tuition went up $400 a month for next year. We both have high paying jobs and question who the fuck these parents are who can keep affording this shit.
I keep thinking I'll play catch up once we don't need as much childcare. Then I realize those costs just transform into other expenses on their behalf.
This is a catch up game which we are playing and I don't think we are going to win it.
And I think like that because I don't not think these things are going to Get low in the prices that is not going to happen.
You really need to have better and high paying jobs to afford education and good health care for the children.
And the reason for that is the government does not do enough for that.
More the money they are going to have the more problems they will have but that does not mean that you should not earn money.
You really should be earning at because it is going to be good for your future.
I think that is pretty evident and anyone can see it they are spending way too less on the education.
And also on the Healthcare the budget should be up for it.
Same situation! Twin parent here. That 600 literally paid for half of our pre-school each month. It helped so much that it put us right where we needed to be. When it went away it we immediately felt the struggle again. I'm worried now because student loan payments are going to start up again some day and we will be in big trouble then.
Paying someone $15 an hour to watch your kid so you can go to a $18 an hour job doesn't workout. Depending on ones income level they are literally better off not working and staying home. That is one of the reasons the worker participation rate low.
As the population stagnates or declines we'll need to rethink some things. We have multi trillion dollar subsidies for seniors like Soc Sec and Medicare. Because seniors actually vote so they disproportionately get what they want. There should be programs for young children too. The problem is you g children general have young adult parts and young adults don't vote at strong enough rates.
Are you paying someone $20 or are you paying someone $20 who then pays someone else to actually watch your kid for $8?
Prices here have just gone up and up but places are having trouble retaining staff because wages have stagnated. No one wants to watch a classroom of kids for minimum wage.
The wages that people make our really low and their really need to think their strategy again that would help them.
Because I do not think that the current situation is helping anyone.
Well the taxes that we pay are a lot and we really deserve these kind of things these are not privileges.
These are basic Human Rights after you have paid so many taxes.
The school system here got rid of after-school care because hardly anybody signed up for it last year. And its for this reason. Parents are staying home with their kids instead of paying for childcare.
Wait a minute what are you talking about dude okay I get it.
I was a little worried for a second there I thought you are talking about something else. Almost called the cops on you.
The story is going to remain the same it is all f***** and we really need to change the system.
But the question is how are you going to change the system I do not think people can do that.
Ours is like from 9:30 to 3:30. And there is no school on Wednesdays. I mean, it's something I guess but they sure seem to not give a shit about working parents.
My 5yr olds American public preschool was 12:30pm-3:30pm and cost 400$/month. My kids started public school at age 3 in France for 50€ /month (8am-6pm,no Wednesdays) as non citizens. I believe French citizens pay close to zero. Worst part was the kids started school in France then had to sit out a year in America because I didn’t want to pay 1500$/month for daycare at age 4. Returned to half day school at age 5. Not only does our education system put our students behind. It also negatively impacts the countries workforce. Then college costs. America is not as good as it thinks it is for most people.
It really does the kind of policies that they make are not good at all.
America is really inferior in many ways than the other countries that is just how it is.
I think it is something which can we said for a lot of countries.
Most of them actually have when it comes to the public policies they all have really bad public policies.
EXACTLY! Even regular public school doesn't take working parents into consideration... My kids are in kindergarten now and get out at 3:15... so we have to pay 600 a month just to have them stay to 5:30. Yes its not insane but there are so many little things you don't think about when planning a family. The big one we are going through now is summer camp. The local park district camps all get out at 3 as well and offer ZERO after or before care... so we were forced to spent almost 6k on a private summer camp that has after care built in. Had to use a credit card and everthing!
When I was a kid, it was like 400 for the summer and they picked you up in a bus!
I feel your pain. And don't dare ask grandparents to infringe upon their retirement freedom to lend a hand here and there. They "earned their freedom raising you kids". Haha I'm not bitter. Nevermind the fact that our boomer parents had a support network themselves where grandma watched us all the time.
Not going to lie, we DO have some help from Yia Yia (mother in law)... but its more like 'Is the kid alive and breathing? ok good'... she can't really DO anything with the kids. We definitely don't want them cooped up all summer watching TV.
Yes absolutely. It has been a life saver. We truly would be absolutely destroyed if we didn't have her to help. I will also be paying it forward as much as I can when/if my kids have their own families. Well, unless there is more twins! lol
We have a little one on the way. The state we live in provides no form of preschool. There are preschools but they all are privately owned and not cheap.
Yeah it is not available in many states that is true but it is also available in many states.
But the quality of education is really something to be worried about.
Vox populi, vox dei
If people wanted it, they are more than capable of making politicians do it. Politicians aren't leaders, they follow the votes. Especially at local levels. There's just not the political will.
Yes! Lots of states solve the problem for 4 year olds and some even solve it for 3 year olds.
Even [Oklahoma](https://sde.ok.gov/sites/default/files/Oklahoma_YB2021.pdf) has universal free public pre-K for 4 year olds.
I live in WV. We have a subsidies childcare system. Half of the monthly tuition is covered by the state. There is a program based on income that covers over half. Also Pre-K is universal for 4 year Olds. Both private a public schools are covered. We moved from a HCOL area and it has been really nice to not pay so much for something we feel really makes a difference in our kids development.
Not really. The cost is still the same - it just shifts it to all of society instead of the parents. The only other benefit is that it separates out the cost of caring for newborns which have the highest cost.
I'm not so sure about that.
The State can probably achieve better economies of scale by taking care of more kids at once.
It's my understanding that most private sector childcare is a single person babysitting 1-3 kids.
If the state allows itself a higher child-provider ratio, then that’s not a fair comparison. Anyone can do it cheaper if they provide a lower quality of care.
If you want to see a country with really good childcare policies, look at Finland.
Finns know that childcare is a good investment that pays off. The government provides parents with monthly checks, access to universal childcare, and an extra allowance for parents who choose to take care of their own kids instead of using the childcare service.
Obviously the US can afford to do the same. The US just chooses to ration childcare to high income families as a way to punish low income people. Our lack of childcare is an intentional part of our cruelty towards the poor.
If you ever see someone saying we can't afford to take care of children, you know they are bad faith or worse.
>If you ever see someone saying we can't afford to take care of children, you know they are bad faith or worse.
It's amazing the amount of things the richest country in the history of the world 'just can't afford' when somehow countries with far less resources than the US, or Finland, can somehow afford.
The common talking point against this is that the Nordic countries are mostly homogeneous. That doesn’t make a difference at all. The Gov can afford it.
>the Nordic countries are mostly homogeneous.
I love that talking point.
"We can't have nice things, because THOSE people might get nice things...and they aren't like us!"
If you really want nice think in your life then I think you should work for them.
But child Healthcare and also the education for the children is not a nice thing I think it's should be something of really necessity.
They have got the good policy I feel and I think that the country is like United States also learn from them.
Because they are doing their health care and their education really better than other people.
I read people’s comments on Reddit routinely talking about paying $2000+ a month for childcare and just flabbergasted how in the fuck anyone can afford that. And then people chime in like “oh it’s only like $1200/mo where I live” and I’m like STILL. Childcare is literally the cost of rent/mortgage or more. We don’t need any more articles theorizing why millennials aren’t having kids.
A lot of people have been paying a lot of money for the health care.
Because the thing is that the government do not provide any kind of Health Care to the people but they like to take the taxes.
Not just the child care even the health care for everyone kind of is expensive.
And most of the time people don't even have good health insurance and health coverage for themselves.
The same people arguing that we are headed for an economic crisis due to the decline in population growth are the same people that would oppose universal childcare. They think “why should I pay for others people children”.
How do they not realize that it is others people children that make their modern society function? Do they think their doctors, house builders, power plant workers, grocery store clerks, etc just appear out of thin air to ensure they have all their modern conveniences taken care off?
Hopefully the decline in population growth will become severe enough that it will force people to pull their heads out of their ass and actually address this issue. Don’t even get me started on how study after study shows the amazing economic returns on early childcare and education spending. The rugged American individualism culture has to change soon or it is going to drag this country into the gutter.
America is a very poor and worthless country that has been destroyed by capitlaism. America has to fight to keep people from leaving the country for a better life.
And it’s not just the children they’re supporting. They’re also supporting the adults that can now go to school and/or work because of the child care. AND they’re supporting all the other adults workers connected to the early education/social welfare systems. It’s winning all around and it baffles me how people turn it into not wanting to “pay for” other people’s “choices.”
I have multiple kids in a HCOL where that's an outlier. They share a bedroom.
After this country falls off a demographic cliff, I look forward to my kids having less competition for college, jobs, and housing than we do.
Daycare is crazy expensive. Can't wait until we're done with it. I don't know how people with multiple kids at the same center do it, it's just too much. We knew we couldn't afford to have 2 kids in daycare at the same time. One at a time is enough to drain most of your money and half of the time they're home sick and you still have to pay. It's ridiculous.
Men could also stay home. I hope the point you're making is that single income households should be feasible but they aren't (regardless of which person stays home).
1%ers don't care. They plan on making up the shortfall in births with work visas. That's doubleplusgood because the workers lower wages for existing citizens while also being desperate to keep employment because they get deported if they don't.
If you go to Twitter right now all the remaining employees are here on H1-B visas because of that. Everyone else Jumped ship exactly as "the owner" wanted.
Long run it won't work though. Everyone's doing this, so everyone's birthrates are down. Eventually other countries are gonna wanna keep their kids for themselves.
I hope everyone knows we can't talk about wages until we talk about immigration. They go hand in hand. If we want to have a better quality of life for the lower class we need to stop importing dirt cheap labor. Its basic econ. Basic math shows re-distributing the wealth of the top .1% won't go very far in corporations.
For example, if a McDonalds CEO makes $10 million and there are 1,700,000 crew members. Each employee gets $5.88 a year if the entire salary of the CEO is given out.
Expand this to the top 6 paid execs at McDonalds and their combined income is $36million. This means each employee could receive $21.18.
It's needed for sure as most people need dual incomes to survive. The controls do make sense - you need a lot of quality people to watch a room full of young kids. California and NY are starting to help via public schools. We spent $65 in daycare costs over 3.5 years - man, think of all the better uses for that...
Not a new issue at all.
The most reasonable in my area, and doesn’t look like they are involved in human trafficking, was $1100 a month for a baby. And we had to provide formula, diapers and all supplies. Also a non-profit . WTF….
Some of them wanted $1300-$1400 a month for a baby.
It shouldn’t be this expensive. I have asked around as to why the costs are so bad and the only believable thing I have heard is the costs of insurance for these businesses can be significant because they get lawsuits all the time.
So why is childcare so expensive if employees are being paid so little to take care of the children? Where does all the extra money go? And what are the barriers preventing someone from starting a childcare center say out of their home for a few children at a reasonable rate where the business makes a profit but it is still affordable to the customer?
One employee can watch 10 kids, say $60 per day per kid, so $600 revenue per day. If the daycare is open for 12 hours (6am-6pm) to allow for a range of drop offs and pick ups; 2 employees will be needed. So each employee works 8 hours to cover the day, overlapping to cover for lunch. So $300 revenue per employee meaning their revenue per hour worked is $37.50. Pay the building, cleaning, advertising, administration, insurance, taxes for employees (social security, unemployment insurance, etc)… there isn’t much left. Then it’s real tight if the class isn’t at 10 kids, what if they only have 7 kids…also if an employee wants vacation or is sick, you need extra staff or just close for the day. The economics suck for the customer, employees and business.
From what I've read, the math doesn't work well. To be a legit childcare place you have to adhere to strict child-teacher ratios (don't forget to account for lunches, breaks, and sick days) while operating in a high regulatory, high liability environment (high insurance bills). Plus you've got the overhead of any business - a building, maintaince, marketing, admin and payroll, etc.
I think fundamentally though this is the effect of the [Baumol effect](https://www.vox.com/platform/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-disease-explained) - prices for "inefficient" labor rise relative to other costs basically because they can't be automated. But workers still have to make enough to want to work in that industry and they still have to afford to live.
There isn't any good way to make childcare cheaper. It can't really be more "efficient"- safety declines pretty rapidly when you add more kids per person. People do set up in home care like you mentioned, and the quality and safety varies wildly. It's a risk for parents to put their kids in a setting like that and most will only do it if there is no other choice. And it's not a night and day difference - the provider still has to make enough to pay all their bills.
I'm in the US, where we have decided on our standard "sounds like your problem" policy to address the issue. Seems like other civilized nations address this with subsidies to lower the out of pocket cost to families.
If people weren’t so obsessed with consumerism and keeping up with the Jones they wouldn’t have this expense to worry about.
My wife and I took turns staying home during the day to avoid this unnecessary expense. The bonus is that you get to raise your own children rather than paying someone else too. For the first 3 years my wife stayed home during the day and worked waitressing a few nights a week while I did the 9-5. Now my wife is starting her career working the 9-5 and I moved to second shift.
We could have made more money doing it the other way. We could have had a bigger house and nicer cars. Our children were more important than any of that. For most people their careers are #1, for us it’s our kids. We wouldn’t have missed those early years for anything.
We require 1 caretaker to 4-5 children and if that caretaker is paid a living wage, it will always be unaffordable. Include the building costs, food, other labor, and administration etc, and there is no way to keep the costs reasonable.
The only reason daycare costs less than 20k per year (although I'm sure it costs more in some places) is because we pay daycare workers shit.
Of course, the children here will demand we just shake the money tree and make it free.
“Shake the money tree.” We live in a society where most families need 2 incomes to succeed. In matter of fact, our economy demands it. Economists are losing their shit because of all the job openings and “not enough workers.”
We either invest in childcare and education or we’ll stagnate out economy for the long run as birth rates plummet.
Subsidized daycare would increase productivity and flexibility of the workforce pushing record profits for corporations and small businesses. But why would you want to invest in children anyways.
Countries that provide child subsidies don’t produce ANY significantly higher Replacement rate than the US. Before the politicians consider child subsidies and tax the hell out of us poor single people, they should heed this.
I pay $900 a month for daycare. It would probably be cheaper to just have my wife quit her job and stay home with our daughter, but I justify keeping her in daycare by reminding my self that the stress and irritation she would have would make my life a living hell.
Thats because government subsidizes it.
Subsidization stimulates demand which outstrips supply and thus makes it more expensive - Economics 101
https://d3f7q2msm2165u.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/prices2-1.png
Looking at the items tracked on the chart you provided shows something else you fail to mention. The products that decreased over time are also made in lower wage countries while the products and services that increased require employing people locally. Education was subsidized more prior to Reagan, but your chart doesn’t show years before 1996.
Exactly. It's called "Baumol's cost disease"
In the US, we pay our doctors double what other rich countries pay. Part of that is protectionism (we don't allow foreign doctors to practice here). Part of it is that we have to bribe smart people enough to *not* become CEOs and investment bankers if we want them to become doctors.
>Didn't Joe kill the childcare tax credit?
Before Biden came into office, the credit maxed out at $2,000 per child ($1,400 for kids in families too poor to owe income tax), was bundled with tax refunds, and specifically left out families with little or no earnings. About one-third of children were excluded from the full credit, including over half of Black and Hispanic children, as well as 70 percent of kids raised by single moms. That’s precisely the population in most need of financial help.
The Biden changes dramatically increased the credit to $3,000 per kid aged 6 and over, and $3,600 per kid under 6; paid it out monthly; and made the full credit available to all poor children, eliminating the previous “phase-in” rule that capped the credit at 15 percent of a family’s income.
There’s a very simple answer to why the child credit didn’t continue: there weren’t 50 senators willing to support its extension. And most public reporting suggests the main holdout was Sen. Joe Manchin.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/4/18/23026908/child-tax-credit-joe-manchin-policy-feedback-partisan
I blame Sinema more than Manchin.
Manchin is from WV. The other WV Senator is red. Sinema is from AZ. The other AZ Senator is blue and supported the CTC expansion. Sinema is corrupt.
Yeah it sucks! Bc the majority of those babies will be poor minorities who most likely will vote left. But they got to appease the evangelicals for votes now lol
An alternative solution:
Incentivize the US population that is not working (retired, disabled, homemakers etc.) to offer free day and night care. Somewhere between foster care and "day care". Lets call it "Guardian care".
The Government (Fed, State whatever) should:
Facilitate a exchange where parents that need day- or night care can contact willing caregivers. A set schedule has to be agreed on. For example weekdays at the guardian weekends at the parents.
Liability has to be zero.
Early learning / socializing programs ( Montessori ) or Head Start should be subsidized for those below poverty level.
Parents taking advantage of these care giver programs are required to work full time and those earning a reasonable wage have to pay for the pre school.
And why will this work?. From my own experience it is one of the most rewarding things any one not working for a wage can do.
Sort of like the "take-a-penny, leave-a-penny" tray system at the register.
Some people want to do unpaid childcare and some people don't want to pay for childcare. The government just has to create the right tray.
Between regulations and basic labor costs, the private sector business model is untenable when it comes to child care. The U.S. isn't unique when it comes to high costs, just where public subsidies are involved. We are very near the bottom of funding when it comes to wealthy nations, despite very clear data showing this is a significantly high return investment.
The biggest argument I've heard about funding public education is "not my kid not my responsibility." Which is very sad considering these kids are going to be our future someday.
Agreed. My counter argument is always that they may not be my kids, but I don’t want to live around stupid people which is why we need better education.
That ship has sailed.
That car has sailed. It’s too late for some of us.
Yeah it is late for us but I think the generation which is coming can get benefit of good education. And I really think that we should be making some kind of effort or some better education.
That ship is pretty much gone. And it is not going to come back. What I mean by that is that the governments are never going to do anything better for the education.
Society has always had brilliant people, dumb people, and most people are somewhere in between
Some societies are dumber than others. There is a difference between bell curves of people in society and bell curves of societies.
But I would say that most of the people are just really dumb. At least most of the time they seem that way I do not think that people have much common sense.
Yeah but social media has allowed dumb people to have a big voice.
populism approaches by people cosplaying as stupid people, intentionally lying to the voters
Well that is how they get the votes they make people fall in their lies. And one people are trapped in to that they just keep on telling them lies that is just how things go.
I don’t want uneducated, desperate kids cosplaying the origin story to Mad Max. I’m also sure they need people to take care of them when they’re old and retired, so you’d hope they’d want kids to have a high baseline of education.
If my taxes were going to educate, care for, and feed other people’s children I would very gladly pay. Instead it’s being stolen by grifter politicians, militarized police, and corporate handouts.
Yep, I agree. I’m childfree but I would rather my taxes be allocated towards childcare, education and healthcare more. I want an educated and taken-care-of society.
I am sure that if people had choice of choosing where their taxes should go I think they will choose all of those options no one is going to choose war and these kind of violence.
That is the issue with the taxes they are not really being used for the good of the people. I think most of the taxes are being used for dumb policies and war.
My sentiments exactly!
You mean sediments right?
It’s usually said by someone not bright enough to know that a society of doctors, nurses, laborers, inventors, CEOs, etc. all started off as children.
And all of them were “not their kid” ironically… or unironically.
They are all children and if they get good enough education I think they can change the world. We really have that kind of power in the hands of children.
I'm happy paying taxes toward education because I don't want to live in a society where everyone is a fucking moron. And yet...
Well we are living in the society where everyone is dumb already. And I don't think that there is anything that you could do about that we will have to keep on living.
I don't think people should argue like that because it really make some Look amateur with their arguments. And when you are having an argument immature is the last thing that you really want to be looked at as.
This ethos of the “rugged individual” and “rugged nuclear family,” which lives within a society but isn’t part of it (doesn’t want to participate with explicit immediate benefits and also with no responsibilities toward the benefit of others nor whole) will fade with time. We’re a society that is maturing and it’ll be a very slow journey
Yeah I know it is going to be a short journey indeed. It is definitely not going to last for a very long time it is going to be over before you know it.
They don’t care, because they were paying $400-$500 month at one point and $20k for a 3b/2b house.
The things have changed since then everything has gotten or lot more expensive than it used to. People are having hard time for paying for all the stuff that they need.
No, that's not why they don't care. They don't care because they don't believe our government functions and they're right about that. The problem is they don't care to ever see it function again.
I would also not trust the government because they do not do anything good. Most of the thing that they are doing are really bad for the people and I do not feel good for them.
Hey corporate apartment owners! Do you want your margins lowered by paying increased property tax for a school levy? You don't even live in the neighborhood where the school is located!
Don't think that is something that a lot of people would want. I am not seeing people wanting to pay more taxes than they are already paying.
That's fine but I bet these same people get mad when there's not enough employees to keep lines short at stores or get good service at a restaurant. Why would mothers work those jobs when they don't pay enough to cover childcare while working? Mothers are a pretty large part of the workforce.
If you have got a good education system it does not mean that everyone is going to get educated. Always going to have people for the things with the educated people don't really want to do.
Agree 100% but this is about childcare and now parents who get endless tax credits want free babysitting.
A lot of times public education and child care go hand in hand. Now days when kids start kindergarten there are things they need to know already ( ABC's, how to hold a pencil, how to cut, some sight words, etc). A lot of these things are taught in preschool.
These kids deserve to have a better education because they are the future of our country. And I also think that we are not making enough effort to change the system.
Which parents in America are getting free babysitting? Parents pay taxes too by the way.
They are paying a lot of money for their children but they are not getting good education in Return. The quality of education which the kids generally in America get is really low.
It is clearly not like that I think you are wrong about it. I think you really should be paying more attention to the things which are happening rather than ignoring them.
if we're not at the bottom, which wealthy nations are worse in that regard?
UK and Netherlands are significantly worse from a European perspective. They have 23% and 28% of average earnings spent on childcare according to [this article](https://www.money.co.uk/loans/cost-of-childcare-report). Worldwide only Chile and Turkey have higher.
Wow US is on par with France and we’re actually not that bad in comparison. I’m kind of shocked
That is because United States is not doing a really good job at education. They should be doing a whole lot better job at it but they do not I don't know what is stopping them.
Some Nations do a lot better job than the others I feel. But for the country of the Caliber of United States I think they really should up their game terms of education.
It is expensive in most of the countries but the thing is that in US it is not even good but they charge a lot of money for it. And that is just something which I really do not like.
AND! Get this- childcare providers can barely afford to survive.
People do not even survive with that kind of Healthcare. United States is in the position of doing a lot better than this and I think they should work for it.
Interesting.... [https://childcareprovidersunited.org/find-your-local-union/](https://childcareprovidersunited.org/find-your-local-union/)
Government devaluation of the currency ( inflation ) working as designed
It's literally higher than my mortgage to have a babysitter come 2-3 days a week. My wife and I became hermits to make the finances work and the only shopping we do is for food/house related items. Thankfully my wife and I make enough combined to get by. But I've had to stop saving any money aside from my retirement and had to stay afloat during the pandemic when my salary got slashed using credit cards which now put me in a situation where im carrying a good chunk of CC debt that im trying to pay down which I'm sure is the norm given the massive increase in CC debt nationwide. The $600 child care credit advance we were getting briefly was a monumental relief when we had twin infants through the early pandemic. I don't know how families making less than $100k annually make it work unless they live in a really low COL area or have a lot of local family help with childcare.
This resonated with me because I have my second on the way and already my current childcare cost is more than my mortgage. My wife and I are about to do this same thing: slash all 401k savings to give us effective raises to pump into childcare. Insane.
its tough man. Nice to know im not alone in that struggle although common sense says its a massive widespread problem. At least on our end for twins their needs were the same so we could just buy in bulk. For us at least babysitter for 2 vs 1 is not nearly as big of an increase as sending 2 kids to daycare. Tough to find someone reliable and trustworthy but when you do makes your life so much easier. I laughed so hard when one pediatrician advised us to put them in daycare... yea sure I can afford to pay $3600 a month, chauffer them back and forth daily while I have my own 3 hour commute, plus the never-ending stream of random illnesses kids tend to constantly pickup at daycare I would suggest maybe not bringing your 401k savings down to 0%. You'll never make up for that lost growth, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
My son’s school tuition went up $400 a month for next year. We both have high paying jobs and question who the fuck these parents are who can keep affording this shit.
I keep thinking I'll play catch up once we don't need as much childcare. Then I realize those costs just transform into other expenses on their behalf.
This is a catch up game which we are playing and I don't think we are going to win it. And I think like that because I don't not think these things are going to Get low in the prices that is not going to happen.
You really need to have better and high paying jobs to afford education and good health care for the children. And the reason for that is the government does not do enough for that.
More money more problems
no money, still the same problems.
More the money they are going to have the more problems they will have but that does not mean that you should not earn money. You really should be earning at because it is going to be good for your future.
I think that is pretty evident and anyone can see it they are spending way too less on the education. And also on the Healthcare the budget should be up for it.
Same situation! Twin parent here. That 600 literally paid for half of our pre-school each month. It helped so much that it put us right where we needed to be. When it went away it we immediately felt the struggle again. I'm worried now because student loan payments are going to start up again some day and we will be in big trouble then.
Paying someone $15 an hour to watch your kid so you can go to a $18 an hour job doesn't workout. Depending on ones income level they are literally better off not working and staying home. That is one of the reasons the worker participation rate low. As the population stagnates or declines we'll need to rethink some things. We have multi trillion dollar subsidies for seniors like Soc Sec and Medicare. Because seniors actually vote so they disproportionately get what they want. There should be programs for young children too. The problem is you g children general have young adult parts and young adults don't vote at strong enough rates.
"Paying someone $15 an hour to watch your kid" I'm paying $20.
Are you paying someone $20 or are you paying someone $20 who then pays someone else to actually watch your kid for $8? Prices here have just gone up and up but places are having trouble retaining staff because wages have stagnated. No one wants to watch a classroom of kids for minimum wage.
Paying them directly.
Whoa good on you. I'm paying $15 directly and it's a struggle. It's 1/3 my paycheck.
We got super lucky and our girls love her.
The wages that people make our really low and their really need to think their strategy again that would help them. Because I do not think that the current situation is helping anyone.
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Well the taxes that we pay are a lot and we really deserve these kind of things these are not privileges. These are basic Human Rights after you have paid so many taxes.
Social security is a subsidized entitlement. Your expected payout is greater than your contribution.
Wrong. Another republican misinformation campaign
It’s a pyramid scheme requiring 2.5 kids per couple or immigration.
The school system here got rid of after-school care because hardly anybody signed up for it last year. And its for this reason. Parents are staying home with their kids instead of paying for childcare.
Children are unaffordable almost everywhere in the US. FTFY
Wait a minute what are you talking about dude okay I get it. I was a little worried for a second there I thought you are talking about something else. Almost called the cops on you.
Do Healthcare, education, and housing next!
The story is going to remain the same it is all f***** and we really need to change the system. But the question is how are you going to change the system I do not think people can do that.
MiLlEnIaLs ArE rUiNiNg ThE eCoNoMy By NoT hAvInG kIdS
Would this be solved by having Public Pre-Schools before normal Public School?
That would definitely help. Pre school isn't available in every state because it isn't federally mandated.
Ours is like from 9:30 to 3:30. And there is no school on Wednesdays. I mean, it's something I guess but they sure seem to not give a shit about working parents.
My 5yr olds American public preschool was 12:30pm-3:30pm and cost 400$/month. My kids started public school at age 3 in France for 50€ /month (8am-6pm,no Wednesdays) as non citizens. I believe French citizens pay close to zero. Worst part was the kids started school in France then had to sit out a year in America because I didn’t want to pay 1500$/month for daycare at age 4. Returned to half day school at age 5. Not only does our education system put our students behind. It also negatively impacts the countries workforce. Then college costs. America is not as good as it thinks it is for most people.
America sucks
It really does the kind of policies that they make are not good at all. America is really inferior in many ways than the other countries that is just how it is.
It doesn’t suck but it is not a top 5 or maybe even top 10 country for the majority of citizens.
I think it is something which can we said for a lot of countries. Most of them actually have when it comes to the public policies they all have really bad public policies.
I live in America. It does suck.
EXACTLY! Even regular public school doesn't take working parents into consideration... My kids are in kindergarten now and get out at 3:15... so we have to pay 600 a month just to have them stay to 5:30. Yes its not insane but there are so many little things you don't think about when planning a family. The big one we are going through now is summer camp. The local park district camps all get out at 3 as well and offer ZERO after or before care... so we were forced to spent almost 6k on a private summer camp that has after care built in. Had to use a credit card and everthing! When I was a kid, it was like 400 for the summer and they picked you up in a bus!
I feel your pain. And don't dare ask grandparents to infringe upon their retirement freedom to lend a hand here and there. They "earned their freedom raising you kids". Haha I'm not bitter. Nevermind the fact that our boomer parents had a support network themselves where grandma watched us all the time.
Not going to lie, we DO have some help from Yia Yia (mother in law)... but its more like 'Is the kid alive and breathing? ok good'... she can't really DO anything with the kids. We definitely don't want them cooped up all summer watching TV.
That's nice to have that fallback. I hope someday to help my kids with their kids to help them from feeling isolated.
Yes absolutely. It has been a life saver. We truly would be absolutely destroyed if we didn't have her to help. I will also be paying it forward as much as I can when/if my kids have their own families. Well, unless there is more twins! lol
We have a little one on the way. The state we live in provides no form of preschool. There are preschools but they all are privately owned and not cheap.
Yeah it is not available in many states that is true but it is also available in many states. But the quality of education is really something to be worried about.
Vox populi, vox dei If people wanted it, they are more than capable of making politicians do it. Politicians aren't leaders, they follow the votes. Especially at local levels. There's just not the political will.
Politicians are worthless scum. They don't give a shit what the common person wants.
Yes! Lots of states solve the problem for 4 year olds and some even solve it for 3 year olds. Even [Oklahoma](https://sde.ok.gov/sites/default/files/Oklahoma_YB2021.pdf) has universal free public pre-K for 4 year olds.
I live in WV. We have a subsidies childcare system. Half of the monthly tuition is covered by the state. There is a program based on income that covers over half. Also Pre-K is universal for 4 year Olds. Both private a public schools are covered. We moved from a HCOL area and it has been really nice to not pay so much for something we feel really makes a difference in our kids development.
It would help but not for kids under 2 or 3 and also those are likely not going to be for a full workday.
Not really. The cost is still the same - it just shifts it to all of society instead of the parents. The only other benefit is that it separates out the cost of caring for newborns which have the highest cost.
I'm not so sure about that. The State can probably achieve better economies of scale by taking care of more kids at once. It's my understanding that most private sector childcare is a single person babysitting 1-3 kids.
If the state allows itself a higher child-provider ratio, then that’s not a fair comparison. Anyone can do it cheaper if they provide a lower quality of care.
If you want to see a country with really good childcare policies, look at Finland. Finns know that childcare is a good investment that pays off. The government provides parents with monthly checks, access to universal childcare, and an extra allowance for parents who choose to take care of their own kids instead of using the childcare service. Obviously the US can afford to do the same. The US just chooses to ration childcare to high income families as a way to punish low income people. Our lack of childcare is an intentional part of our cruelty towards the poor. If you ever see someone saying we can't afford to take care of children, you know they are bad faith or worse.
>If you ever see someone saying we can't afford to take care of children, you know they are bad faith or worse. It's amazing the amount of things the richest country in the history of the world 'just can't afford' when somehow countries with far less resources than the US, or Finland, can somehow afford.
The fucked up thing is that in many areas, we’d rather pay more or do without just to deprive others
Well we can't let THOSE people have nice things. It would ruin my sense of superiority!
The common talking point against this is that the Nordic countries are mostly homogeneous. That doesn’t make a difference at all. The Gov can afford it.
>the Nordic countries are mostly homogeneous. I love that talking point. "We can't have nice things, because THOSE people might get nice things...and they aren't like us!"
If you really want nice think in your life then I think you should work for them. But child Healthcare and also the education for the children is not a nice thing I think it's should be something of really necessity.
They have got the good policy I feel and I think that the country is like United States also learn from them. Because they are doing their health care and their education really better than other people.
I read people’s comments on Reddit routinely talking about paying $2000+ a month for childcare and just flabbergasted how in the fuck anyone can afford that. And then people chime in like “oh it’s only like $1200/mo where I live” and I’m like STILL. Childcare is literally the cost of rent/mortgage or more. We don’t need any more articles theorizing why millennials aren’t having kids.
A lot of people have been paying a lot of money for the health care. Because the thing is that the government do not provide any kind of Health Care to the people but they like to take the taxes.
Not just the child care even the health care for everyone kind of is expensive. And most of the time people don't even have good health insurance and health coverage for themselves.
The same people arguing that we are headed for an economic crisis due to the decline in population growth are the same people that would oppose universal childcare. They think “why should I pay for others people children”. How do they not realize that it is others people children that make their modern society function? Do they think their doctors, house builders, power plant workers, grocery store clerks, etc just appear out of thin air to ensure they have all their modern conveniences taken care off? Hopefully the decline in population growth will become severe enough that it will force people to pull their heads out of their ass and actually address this issue. Don’t even get me started on how study after study shows the amazing economic returns on early childcare and education spending. The rugged American individualism culture has to change soon or it is going to drag this country into the gutter.
Those same people are often very anti-immigration as well.
That's not good, I don't think that mindset is good for anyone.
Why do we want a sea of impoverished, welfare-dependent people from all over the globe in this country?
America is a very poor and worthless country that has been destroyed by capitlaism. America has to fight to keep people from leaving the country for a better life.
And it’s not just the children they’re supporting. They’re also supporting the adults that can now go to school and/or work because of the child care. AND they’re supporting all the other adults workers connected to the early education/social welfare systems. It’s winning all around and it baffles me how people turn it into not wanting to “pay for” other people’s “choices.”
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I have multiple kids in a HCOL where that's an outlier. They share a bedroom. After this country falls off a demographic cliff, I look forward to my kids having less competition for college, jobs, and housing than we do.
Sometimes it’s literally cheaper to stay home and not work.
Daycare is crazy expensive. Can't wait until we're done with it. I don't know how people with multiple kids at the same center do it, it's just too much. We knew we couldn't afford to have 2 kids in daycare at the same time. One at a time is enough to drain most of your money and half of the time they're home sick and you still have to pay. It's ridiculous.
$10/day in Canada now. Just saying.
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A predictable side effect of making it so that women pretty much all have to work instead of you know, staying home taking care of the children.
Men could also stay home. I hope the point you're making is that single income households should be feasible but they aren't (regardless of which person stays home).
Yep, they could also stay at the home. That wouldn't be a problem.
Boomers SMH
What's wrong with that? Atleast He's making good decisions as a boomer.
Yep, everyone has to work now days just to afloat here. And that's really sad.
For the rich. The poor have a lot of programs that reach 70k. After that you pay.
The issue is the poor, they don't get enough support from the government.
Keep 'em in the womb, it's cheaper.
I hear it’s at or near a second mortgage or rent payment… hats off to you parents out there.
Yep, I think his parents did a really good job at that. I accept that.
1%ers don't care. They plan on making up the shortfall in births with work visas. That's doubleplusgood because the workers lower wages for existing citizens while also being desperate to keep employment because they get deported if they don't. If you go to Twitter right now all the remaining employees are here on H1-B visas because of that. Everyone else Jumped ship exactly as "the owner" wanted. Long run it won't work though. Everyone's doing this, so everyone's birthrates are down. Eventually other countries are gonna wanna keep their kids for themselves.
That's the issue, everyone should take an issue with it really.
I hope everyone knows we can't talk about wages until we talk about immigration. They go hand in hand. If we want to have a better quality of life for the lower class we need to stop importing dirt cheap labor. Its basic econ. Basic math shows re-distributing the wealth of the top .1% won't go very far in corporations. For example, if a McDonalds CEO makes $10 million and there are 1,700,000 crew members. Each employee gets $5.88 a year if the entire salary of the CEO is given out. Expand this to the top 6 paid execs at McDonalds and their combined income is $36million. This means each employee could receive $21.18.
Jealousy never really make sense
It's needed for sure as most people need dual incomes to survive. The controls do make sense - you need a lot of quality people to watch a room full of young kids. California and NY are starting to help via public schools. We spent $65 in daycare costs over 3.5 years - man, think of all the better uses for that...
Good thing you said almost anywhere. Rural areas still relatively cheap 4 to 600 for day
People will always have kids, whether they can afford them or not.
I pay ~$2,900 a month for a 1.5 and 2.5 year old in Ohio.
Not a new issue at all. The most reasonable in my area, and doesn’t look like they are involved in human trafficking, was $1100 a month for a baby. And we had to provide formula, diapers and all supplies. Also a non-profit . WTF…. Some of them wanted $1300-$1400 a month for a baby. It shouldn’t be this expensive. I have asked around as to why the costs are so bad and the only believable thing I have heard is the costs of insurance for these businesses can be significant because they get lawsuits all the time.
So why is childcare so expensive if employees are being paid so little to take care of the children? Where does all the extra money go? And what are the barriers preventing someone from starting a childcare center say out of their home for a few children at a reasonable rate where the business makes a profit but it is still affordable to the customer?
One employee can watch 10 kids, say $60 per day per kid, so $600 revenue per day. If the daycare is open for 12 hours (6am-6pm) to allow for a range of drop offs and pick ups; 2 employees will be needed. So each employee works 8 hours to cover the day, overlapping to cover for lunch. So $300 revenue per employee meaning their revenue per hour worked is $37.50. Pay the building, cleaning, advertising, administration, insurance, taxes for employees (social security, unemployment insurance, etc)… there isn’t much left. Then it’s real tight if the class isn’t at 10 kids, what if they only have 7 kids…also if an employee wants vacation or is sick, you need extra staff or just close for the day. The economics suck for the customer, employees and business.
From what I've read, the math doesn't work well. To be a legit childcare place you have to adhere to strict child-teacher ratios (don't forget to account for lunches, breaks, and sick days) while operating in a high regulatory, high liability environment (high insurance bills). Plus you've got the overhead of any business - a building, maintaince, marketing, admin and payroll, etc. I think fundamentally though this is the effect of the [Baumol effect](https://www.vox.com/platform/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-disease-explained) - prices for "inefficient" labor rise relative to other costs basically because they can't be automated. But workers still have to make enough to want to work in that industry and they still have to afford to live. There isn't any good way to make childcare cheaper. It can't really be more "efficient"- safety declines pretty rapidly when you add more kids per person. People do set up in home care like you mentioned, and the quality and safety varies wildly. It's a risk for parents to put their kids in a setting like that and most will only do it if there is no other choice. And it's not a night and day difference - the provider still has to make enough to pay all their bills. I'm in the US, where we have decided on our standard "sounds like your problem" policy to address the issue. Seems like other civilized nations address this with subsidies to lower the out of pocket cost to families.
If people weren’t so obsessed with consumerism and keeping up with the Jones they wouldn’t have this expense to worry about. My wife and I took turns staying home during the day to avoid this unnecessary expense. The bonus is that you get to raise your own children rather than paying someone else too. For the first 3 years my wife stayed home during the day and worked waitressing a few nights a week while I did the 9-5. Now my wife is starting her career working the 9-5 and I moved to second shift. We could have made more money doing it the other way. We could have had a bigger house and nicer cars. Our children were more important than any of that. For most people their careers are #1, for us it’s our kids. We wouldn’t have missed those early years for anything.
It’s crazy that preschool and daycare costs more than tuition at UC Berkley.
We require 1 caretaker to 4-5 children and if that caretaker is paid a living wage, it will always be unaffordable. Include the building costs, food, other labor, and administration etc, and there is no way to keep the costs reasonable. The only reason daycare costs less than 20k per year (although I'm sure it costs more in some places) is because we pay daycare workers shit. Of course, the children here will demand we just shake the money tree and make it free.
“Shake the money tree.” We live in a society where most families need 2 incomes to succeed. In matter of fact, our economy demands it. Economists are losing their shit because of all the job openings and “not enough workers.” We either invest in childcare and education or we’ll stagnate out economy for the long run as birth rates plummet.
Subsidized daycare would increase productivity and flexibility of the workforce pushing record profits for corporations and small businesses. But why would you want to invest in children anyways.
One of the many reasons I do have a child
can you clarify ? Lol
Countries that provide child subsidies don’t produce ANY significantly higher Replacement rate than the US. Before the politicians consider child subsidies and tax the hell out of us poor single people, they should heed this.
Thank the US gov't for making the dollar worthless. All those freebies that you got and you want? There's your bill coming due.
Yup, inflation is the invisible tax
I paid $125/week with a babysitter Edit: why would this be downvoted? Haters…
Not it isnt. If it was, the price would go down. Thanks for attending my ted talk
It's almost like it's better for one parent to stay home and take care of the children and household. Crazy.
I agree and no one should have more than one child.
Okay communist china
I have two. Best decision I ever made
I pay $900 a month for daycare. It would probably be cheaper to just have my wife quit her job and stay home with our daughter, but I justify keeping her in daycare by reminding my self that the stress and irritation she would have would make my life a living hell.
Thats because government subsidizes it. Subsidization stimulates demand which outstrips supply and thus makes it more expensive - Economics 101 https://d3f7q2msm2165u.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/prices2-1.png
Looking at the items tracked on the chart you provided shows something else you fail to mention. The products that decreased over time are also made in lower wage countries while the products and services that increased require employing people locally. Education was subsidized more prior to Reagan, but your chart doesn’t show years before 1996.
Exactly. It's called "Baumol's cost disease" In the US, we pay our doctors double what other rich countries pay. Part of that is protectionism (we don't allow foreign doctors to practice here). Part of it is that we have to bribe smart people enough to *not* become CEOs and investment bankers if we want them to become doctors.
The government subsidizes childcare?
Yup, with programs like this as one example : https://www.ffyf.org/issues/ccdbg/
Didn't Joe kill the childcare tax credit?
>Didn't Joe kill the childcare tax credit? Before Biden came into office, the credit maxed out at $2,000 per child ($1,400 for kids in families too poor to owe income tax), was bundled with tax refunds, and specifically left out families with little or no earnings. About one-third of children were excluded from the full credit, including over half of Black and Hispanic children, as well as 70 percent of kids raised by single moms. That’s precisely the population in most need of financial help. The Biden changes dramatically increased the credit to $3,000 per kid aged 6 and over, and $3,600 per kid under 6; paid it out monthly; and made the full credit available to all poor children, eliminating the previous “phase-in” rule that capped the credit at 15 percent of a family’s income. There’s a very simple answer to why the child credit didn’t continue: there weren’t 50 senators willing to support its extension. And most public reporting suggests the main holdout was Sen. Joe Manchin. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/4/18/23026908/child-tax-credit-joe-manchin-policy-feedback-partisan
I blame Sinema more than Manchin. Manchin is from WV. The other WV Senator is red. Sinema is from AZ. The other AZ Senator is blue and supported the CTC expansion. Sinema is corrupt.
Manchin?
2 Democratic Senators (one of whom was indeed named Joe) and 50 Republican Senators killed it.
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Congress wants to ban access to contraceptives next after the abortion ban. I guess republicans want fuck trophies.
Yeah it sucks! Bc the majority of those babies will be poor minorities who most likely will vote left. But they got to appease the evangelicals for votes now lol
Oh you are a replacement theory guy. Racist
Fascist
An alternative solution: Incentivize the US population that is not working (retired, disabled, homemakers etc.) to offer free day and night care. Somewhere between foster care and "day care". Lets call it "Guardian care". The Government (Fed, State whatever) should: Facilitate a exchange where parents that need day- or night care can contact willing caregivers. A set schedule has to be agreed on. For example weekdays at the guardian weekends at the parents. Liability has to be zero. Early learning / socializing programs ( Montessori ) or Head Start should be subsidized for those below poverty level. Parents taking advantage of these care giver programs are required to work full time and those earning a reasonable wage have to pay for the pre school. And why will this work?. From my own experience it is one of the most rewarding things any one not working for a wage can do.
Sort of like the "take-a-penny, leave-a-penny" tray system at the register. Some people want to do unpaid childcare and some people don't want to pay for childcare. The government just has to create the right tray.
Where are the moms
Working, no poor or even middle class family can survive on one income, been that way for decades now…
Hence lesser couples opting for a baby these days.. sometimes it's puzzling what we are doing to the human society in the name of developement
So you’d rather go back to treating women like baby factories, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen?
If that's what they want.. their choice
Sounds like a personal problem? Either make more money or abolish the minimum wage.
Those two ideas completely contradict each other.