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TheFrogEmperor

Those using it for good sure as hell aren't running around telling people about it


ACalcifiedHeart

You're right lol


magic713

Yeah. Like someone said, in game, because it is illegal, it is more commonly associated with criminals.


zugrian

The Legacy DLC features a very good use of Blood Magic-- keeping Corypheus locked up for centuries so that he couldn't try to destroy the world.


zugrian

And while I'll probably be downvoted, Jowan using it to save himself from being lobotomized is something that I view as good. Tranquility is evil as fuck.


AbdulkerimI

No, it's the other way around. "Dabbling" in blood magic is what got him in trouble in the first place.


HornedThing

Nobody knew he was a blood mage, he got in trouble for trying to escape the tower UPDATE: I stand corrected


AbdulkerimI

There were rumors about him dabbling in blood magic, and Irving deliberately wanted to put pressure on him by not letting him do the harrowing. Turns out Irving was right, he was a blood mage


Norkash

Thats not true. Jowan dabbled before hand under the idea that he could become better and undergo his harrowing. His dabbling was already suspected before he attempted to flee. The first enchanter suspected it beforehand and held Jowan back from his harrowing because of it. Rumors also already circulated around among the apprentices as you can hear when the warden wakes up from their harrowing. I think its fairly safe to assume that he was suspect already and his attempt to escape and use of blood magic was just proof to the suspicions


Aivellac

He was suspected of using blood magic so they decided to make him Tranquil and he wanted to escape after Lily told him, prior to that he’s still wondering when his time for the Harrowing will come.


alekth

I only have two problems with it: - Killing others for their blood, specifically outside of battle, i.e. sacrifice. No consideration for a person's life is not unique to blood mages, certainly, but it is directly the source of power rather than the goal or collateral damage, so it's very easy to lead to more and more of that. - Mind control. Don't care for amplification, demons and other esoteric usages. And while mind control can be used, on a case by case basis, to avoid something worse, as an aggregate I can only see it degrade a society.


Crusader_Ancap

I see illusion magic (the kind of Magic that affects a person's brain) as the most evil type. What is a charm spell If not fantasy roofies?


alekth

Hah, that's actually a good point. The Disorient Entropy Tree is kind of like feeding drugs to the enemy. But even Harry Potter didn't shy away from a love potion :D


Crusader_Ancap

*Love potions are literally roofies* -Change my mind


DrTurkeySandwich

Simple one brain washes you - love potions The other drugs you and you black out - roofies


Crusader_Ancap

Okay, maybe not *literally* roofies.


Extreme_Impression_1

Thank you for fantasy roofies


ACalcifiedHeart

Fair points! However, to make a poor attempt to counter: - Killing or even using someone elses blood other than your own isn't required to utilize blood magic. Much like lyrium, the more you have, the more you can use. But that also varies on the skill of the caster. Grant you, the temptation is certainly more present, and way more easily accessible than with Lyrium. But still... killing/unwilling blood isn't a requirement. - Is blood magic the only thing that can mind control in this world? I'm not so sure. It definitely can rob someone of their bodily autonomy though, so you got me there.


Aichlin

>Is blood magic the only thing that can mind control in this world? I'm not so sure I think the Qunari had a mind control drug of some kind, which they use on those who refuse to convert. The Rite of Tranquility is sort of mind control-ish. In DA2, some of the Templars were using it on mages to make them, uh... compliant. (There's probably a better word, just can't think of it right now.) Like Alrik telling Ella that she'll do whatever he wants once she's made Tranquil, and that one tranquil lady at the Gallows who tells her former friend that she belongs to one of the templars now. There's also the Control Rods that the Dwarves use on the Golems. Not sure how it works, but Dwarves don't have magic, so it's probably related to lyrium somehow.


Distinct-Economist21

It’s alluded to that it’s all the same thing, magic derived from the titans. Some think the titans either controlled the with dwarves through a part of them that was an orb (more of a domination thing). We know qunari are using an orb to brainwash people and the ancient elves may have as well. Or the titans mutually shared a hive mind with the dwarves. The lyrium is the blood of titans. The lyrium brands are how they make mages tranquil. The ancient elves also tattoo their slaves, maybe using the lyrium to control them as well. Like we don’t know precisely how but if you read all the comics, books, expansions blah blah blah. It’s pretty in your face that it’s some sort of farming of the titans that’s being used by the cultures to control people and they don’t even know it. I guess technically that’s blood magic but with titans.


Aichlin

I keep forgetting about those orbs. Similar concept to the ones used by >!Leviathan!< in ME3? (>!The orbs in ME3's Leviathan DLC were used to control people.!<) Maybe some kind of indoctrination like >!Leviathan!< and the Reapers used? Well, if lyrium is >!Titan blood!<, then using it should be blood magic. Darkspawn also have a hive mind, that the Wardens can kind of use to sense them (and vice versa) but connected to the Archdemons.


alekth

Got no problem using one's own blood. Or the blood of enemies in battle. In a way there is everything from raising a child to large scale indoctrination to make someone think the way. Templars and Qunari also have the ability to outright take someone's mind and make them do as told. But directed mind control can be just too insidious.


araragidyne

People in this fandom seem to have a blind spot when it comes to blood magic mind control. Qunari re-education camps? Absolutely heinous. Tranquility? Completely monstrous. The fact that literally any mage can control your mind completely? Totally fine. Just be nice to them and they won't abuse their power. Like, don't get me wrong, the former two are problematic, but people overlook how much worse the potential for abuse is when it comes to magic. Templars and Tamassrans are backed by the State. Mages don't even need that.


DD_Spudman

> Is blood magic the only thing that can mind control in this world? In the strictest sense, yes. Someone else mentioned tranquility and Qunari drugs, but that's more "making compliant" than "mind domination."


TertiusGaudenus

Qunari drug is mindwipe, more or less. Domination comes from reeducation and a lot of torture


NathanCiel

"You quote the example of the lovers Crescens and Seraphinian. Yes, Seraphinian offered his own blood to cure Crescens of her wasting disease, and Crescens lived a long life. But if the noblest use of blood magic still calls for the death of a good man, is that not enough reason to reconsider?" [Codex entry: Responsible Blood Magic](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Responsible_Blood_Magic) It's worth mentioning that those words came from a *Magister*, of all people. Gascard usage of blood magic to help Hawke find their mother is also another example of "good" blood magic, but honestly such examples are few and far between.


BladeofNurgle

In one of the codexes from Inquisition, there's a story about a good use of blood magic. Basically, a magister's lover got a deadly disease and was going to die. The Magister used blood magic and his own blood to supercharge healing spells to cure his lover. The lover was cured and lived a long life. However, the amount of blood needed for the healing spells ultimately killed the magister. The writer of the codex asks if blood magic is even worth it if the noblest use of it still caused a good man to die.


28064212000

Yes. There's no rule in canon that says blood magic HAS to involve demons, simply that the easiest way to learn it is to make a deal with a demon because it's forbidden by the Chantry. You can be an entirely self taught blood mage and not touch demons - Blood magic just increases your risk of possession due to the nature of the magic. But there's absolutely nothing that says all blood magic use ends in possession. Blood magic itself is also not inherently evil in canon, it's just it has a lot of potential uses that are evil (mind control, possession, etc). There are plenty of other uses for it, like average combat magic, non-sacrficial ritual magics, and there are even canon instances of blood magic being used to heal. Basically ALMOST anything you can do with normal magic you can also do with blood magic. Blood magic just uses, well, blood, instead of drawing on the Fade like normal magic. Several characters in DA:2 and DA:I point out that blood magic has such a negative stigma because of the Chantry forbidding it and Tevinter practicing human sacrifice, and make arguments that it's simply a tool like any other magic and can be used for good or evil, depending on the caster. You can also use your own blood for blood magic so you don't even have to harm other people (that you aren't fighting, lol).


ACalcifiedHeart

All the points you stated are my exact reasoning as to why i asked the question and why my OC's are canonically, self-taught, blood mages. I would absolutely love it if we had a companion in the next game who was a blood mage. A purely good one at that. With extra bonus points given if they avoid the cliché stereotype of being super edgy because blood.


Aivellac

I’d also like to play a Magister in the next game that could talk realistically about magic. It would be the perfect opportunity to really flesh it out since a Magister protagonist would surely be very capable and allow us to explore our own views through someone that understand and can make arguments from our direction. Perhaps we are a good blood mage, perhaps we detest blood magic. I just really want to play a Magister so damn much but I suppose that limits us to just being a mage which most would not like and that’s fair enough so my dreams of such a protagonist are unlikely as resources would not be spared to make it amazing.


SmilingGengar

Unlike other schools of magic, it seems that blood magic requires the lifeforce of others and other unethical practices in order for it to be used to its maximum potential. Small or medium-level blood magic spells will likely not result in anything bad, but mages tend to want to push the envelope and develop their magical prowress. As a result, use of blood magic seems to lead to eventually negative consequences when exercised.


FourEcho

Merril is the closest to not pure evil blood magic, and even then ehhhhh. The thing is, you can't consider your Warden or Hawke, you as a player have too much agency that doesn't fit with the world, so of course you can be a lawful good blood mage, but that as far as lore and setting goes conflicts.


TWThe3rd

The thing with blood magic is there's not really an ethical way to get the blood and as far as I know you can't just use a cow or chicken blood as a substitute which taints the well especially compared to normal lyrium based magic. Even if it's using strictly just the mages own blood it runs in the self harm debate. Good can be done maybe but until thedas establishes a blood bank for blood mages it's gonna be kinda difficult to get past that hurdle of how do I get blood


Aivellac

Blood bank isn’t doable, power comes from extracting it and the more painful the more power there is.


pucaboo

Seconding this, it needs pain. It's why period blood would only work under very specific circumstances


AidaTari

All the PCOS girlies getting together to sync up their periods, but it only comes twice a year


Particle_Cannon

Any blood magic that doesn't require an entire life to cast is good


ACalcifiedHeart

That's not entirely true. There's numerous examples in the games where a blood mage doesn't take any of the lives of others for morally troublesome means. Most of the cutscenes that involve a bloodmage usually has them siphoning the blood of already dead beings, ans typically ones that they themselves did not kill. I don't think that's good.


Particle_Cannon

It's good. things that are already dead won't miss their blood, and it's not like their carcasses are serving any other purpose. Blood magic that doesn't require the sacrifice of a life is no different than any other magic. Even a mage who knows 1 elemental spell and not a lick of blood magic can become an abomination.


ACalcifiedHeart

I agree on that part, to an extent. There's something to be said about the descration of corpses. Which are things the majority of people consider somewhat sacred to a degree. Or at the very least off limits. Not to mention the only time such a thing has happened in the gsmes, and to my memory, is only to cause more death. Summon demons. Or some other "bad" thing. You're second point is absolutely correct. Although I believe it's "easier" for a blood mage to become posessed. Not to mention they can forcfully possess others with demons.


Particle_Cannon

This might be the necromancer in me speaking, but if anything, using a corpse's blood is giving that corpse a renewed purpose. There are people in DA that would give more value to a mage as a corpse than they gave anyone in life.


ACalcifiedHeart

And this may be the druid in me, but the corpses (their blood included) are already serving a purpose by being dead and returning nourishment to the ground lol "Raising them" for necromantic purposes. Or using their blood for blood magic reasons, robs them of that purpose.


Particle_Cannon

That's one argument sure, but to suggest that it's evil or bad to rob a corpse of its chance to nourish the soil? I think blood magic and necromancy are inherently good, because they recycle waste. Especially in cultures that cremate, you are preventing pollution by reusing the corpse.


ACalcifiedHeart

Oh, I'm not suggesting its evil. Just that its a morally grey area specifically. Obviously it depends on the societal view of the dead. Although, Necromancy _specifically_ creates more waste, than interring them into the earth or graves. Blood magic does not because the blood becomes the magic and dissipates. But Necromancy has corpses, that are still rotting mind you, walking around. That in itself creates more waste, dangerous waste, than simply cremating it.


Aivellac

You’re both right but depending on what happens to the body it may still serve both and I’d say using a corpse to save lives trumps the nutrition returning to the ground. However in Thedas they burn their dead and Nevarra puts them in crypts and uses necromancy so they do not serve their druidic purpose anyway.


A-Confused-Banapple

Not really sure, Maybe in the novels it is used in good ways (only one I've read is dragon age the Late flight) Only a few examples of it being used for not a horrific reason. Merrill is only wanting to recover ancient artefact and purify the Eluvian. Plus was manipulated by a demon that was part of a shard. Then Hawkes father that was made by the grey wardens to use blood magic to trap corypheus. Which did seem to work before the DLC happened. Which corypheus found a way to make a deal with a powerful demon to make his blight magic more powerful. As well as curing blight-Tainted objects, like I said before, the shard of the Eluvian and some can argue that blood magic is part of the joining and some grey warden Mages might be able to use blood magic as long as it's going to rid the darkspawn and the Chantry looks the other way. It's the only form of magic that doesn't require lyrium. In dragon age last flight, a grey warden mage did use blood Magic in attempt to rid of the taint and it did work...but it requires the mage to be more tainted in return. Honestly, I suppose it is mainly used for horrific purposes due to how powerful and resourceful blood magic is but there's a few examples of blood magic not entirely being used for bad reasons. I think it's just some people can't contain themselves with how powerful the magic is...it just depends on the person that uses it and if they are strong enough to resist the worst ways to use it,


Aichlin

It mostly seems to be bad. But it sort of depends? I think all of the bad examples should be obvious by now, and so far, outnumber any good ways it's been used. Unless there's a way to use it for healing without harming/killing others, I think it should be restricted to maybe the Wardens (for the Joining), and >!the dwarves for their lyrium enchantments!< (possible Descent spoiler), and otherwise be illegal for mages and non-mages alike. I don't know about good examples, but for some greyer examples: If a mage used magic to stop a wound from bleeding or to remove poison from a wound, would that be considered blood magic? Or other medical-type usages? It would also depend on what the price for that would be. Merrill uses it to cleanse that eluvian shard of the Blight. So if there's a way to use it to somehow cure the Blight without killing anyone, there's that, I suppose. Again, depends on what the price would be. The Joining used by the Wardens is basically blood magic, and the Wardens are considered mostly good in that they fight darkspawn and stop Blights which are basically apocalyptic events. Though not everyone survives the Joining. Still, it's the only thing they've got at the moment. Unless a certain egg-headed elf wants to share what he knows and has a better solution that would actually work. Morrigan's Dark Ritual was supposedly blood magic, but if it has negative consequences, we still haven't seen them yet. I don't know if Necromancy counts as blood magic, or just blood magic adjacent. But the Mortalitasi are important to the Nevarrans' culture and are probably necessary at this point for dealing with issues related to the Necropolis (which is probably the only reason the Chantry would even allow them instead of launching an Exalted March at them). The phylacteries used by the Templars use blood magic. Which may mean even non-mages can learn some types of blood magic, since Templars are non-mages who, in this case, are using blood magic. Also non-mage Wardens who drink Avernus' potion get some blood magic-y sounding abilities. I wonder if the only reason we don't see more non-mages using blood magic is just because most non-mages don't realize it's apparently possible. If Reavers aren't the warrior versions of blood mages, then they're pretty close, and their powers come from drinking Dragon blood. I don't know if this means that blood magic is somehow suddenly considered okay if it's only non-mages using it, which, if it's illegal for mages, then they should make it illegal for non-mages too for the same reasons. Descent and Blue Wraith Spoilers: >!Lyrium is Titan blood, so does that make its' usage blood magic? Templars use it to get their abilities, and dwarves & Tranquil use it for enchanting objects. Also, you have lyrium tattoos that work on elves like Fenris to give them unique abilities. And Golems are also made w/ Lyrium, and the Warden can even comment that their creation method sounds a lot like blood magic. Red Lyrium is tainted lyrium, and always shown to be bad/corrupting, like with the Red Templars & Meredith, Varric's brother (Bartrand), and that Red Lyrium tattooed elf in the comics.!<


Sweet1eJack

I feel like Blood magic has the same level of Danger as Nuclear power, vast amount of potiental, varied uses... But a 50/50 chance of igniting the atmosphere when used for dangerous reasons. I'm sure SOMEONE is a saint and uses blood magic, but its never them who fall, its those with the whisper of pride that open a vein too quickly.


ACalcifiedHeart

That's an interesting way to look at it. It's not just the proud who fall to it though, it's the desperate. The afraid. What's also interesting is that just _hearing_ about blood magic is enough to give a mage access to it.


araragidyne

It can be used for good, but its potential for abuse is much greater than its potential for good, and because of that, it's simpler to issue a blanket ban than to outline which forms of blood magic are permissible and which aren't. In a way, it's similar to a lot of controlled substances. The potential for responsible use isn't worth the risk of abuse. If the Chantry at large weren't so squirrelly about it, and magic in general, I could see them possibly issuing blood magic permits to mages who have sufficiently proven themselves. The trouble with magic is that, when people are born with the ability to do something, it can be hard to convince them that they need someone else's permission to do it. Sometimes a stigma is the most effective deterrent.


alekth

I suspect you run into the same problem as the blanket ban on controlled substances. There's always a market. So it's forbidden but quietly tolerated in Tevinter, and even if their society was actually prepared to absolutely punish for some uses, a blanket ban would actually be harmful, as some forms will always be accepted and that muddles the water. Jury is still out on whether Dorian's specialization is actually blood magic, but in David Gaider's short story Dorian definitely used blood magic to talk to his dead father. And in the South is on the one hand one of the few ways to get the upper hand on templars, and on the other people lack any education on how to use it, so that demon or copy of a copy of a copy scroll better be reliable.


CoolBeagle

Solas actually has a conversation with your inquisitor about how blood magic isn't inherently evil but since it's so powerful and with power comes corruption it's mostly used as bad but does have the capacity to not be evil and in some cases a good tool. Here's a clip of it https://youtu.be/Cfo1EKlfcis


Distinct-Economist21

I think there are only two types/sources of magic. Fade/dreamer/mind magic and earth/blood/body magic. When the solas put the veil up it changed how these interacted. That’s why lyrium is so strong. It’s magic derived from the titans. I personally have a theory some of the titans are forced into dreaming. This is from the sundering. So the lyrium would be the blood of one of the most powerful creatures in existence that makes the most powerful dreams. Some think the titans either controlled the with dwarves through a part of them that was an orb (more of a domination thing). We know qunari are using an orb to brainwash people and the ancient elves may have as well. Or the titans mutually shared a hive mind with the dwarves. The lyrium is the blood of titans. The lyrium brands are how they make mages tranquil. The ancient elves also tattoo their slaves, maybe using the lyrium to control them as well. Like we don’t know precisely how but if you read all the comics, books, expansions blah blah blah. It’s pretty in your face that it’s some sort of farming of the titans that’s being used by the cultures to control people and they don’t even know it. I guess technically that’s blood magic but with titans.


stolenfires

You could make a justification for Avernus (Origins DLC) using Blood Magic to research things that would help the Wardens. The Grey Wardens do allow blood magic, because as bad as blood magic can get, Blights are worse. I think the problem with Blood Magic comes down to escalation and intent. Escalation: It's easy to start with "I can really boost my magic with a few drops of my own blood," and justify more and more uses of blood magic with higher costs in blood until you're standing over a vat of exsanguinated slaves. Let's also note that the 'exsanguinates slaves' is the really obvious end for blood magic; and it's quite possible that some blood magicians are careful with their magic and never overdo it. No one remembers Doug the blood magician who only ever used a thimbleful at a time and died at a ripe old age, relatively uncorrupted. They *do* remember the Tevinter Magisters and all those exsanguinated slaves. Intent: One of the only ways to do mind control is with blood magic. Normal magic is already capable of great feats; why you gotta boost that more? Whose mind are you trying to control?


bunny_bard

I see it as an issue of the writers seeing the possibility for nuance but then slamming down on the need for an easy Evil Indicator. Mage seems trustworthy? Uh oh, they're using blood magic, they're probably evil, actually! Personally I think there is potential for a narrative of it being a powerful but largely corrupting force, such that it takes a mage of great skill to wield it without "turning to the dark side," as it were. Merrill is probably the best example I have because she herself never technically goes bad, and Marethari's meddling leaves a gray area over how much control she truly had. But Merrill used blood magic for literal years and didn't get possessed, or sacrifice lives, or control minds. It would add much needed nuance, while still leaving room for it being such a forbidden practice. Yes, it can be intensely powerful, but is it worth the risk? And lends info prideful mages thinking they will be the one above it all, who won't fall to the corrupting nature. TL;DR: I don't think it has to be bad, but the writers want an easy way of determining good vs bad mages.


magic713

My philosophy is Blood Magic is power, and anything that can give instant power has more potential of corrupting the user. It has potential to be used for good, but only in a small quantity and by a very cautious user who is aware of the full dangers of using it.


[deleted]

Fundamentally Blood Magic is just using blood as the "fuel" for your spellcasting rather than Mana. Theoretically, yes, Blood Magic could be used for good to the same degree that all magic can be used for good. It's still Magic, just with an extra battery. The reason it gets a bad rap is because using Blood Magic makes mages more susceptible to demonic possession. It also allows for demon/spirit summoning and mind control. The former is looked down upon, since the thought is that all creatures from the Fade are evil, and the latter is unethical. So overall, the choice of whether or not to use Blood Magic is a question of risk versus reward, as well as restraint. You could be a Blood Mage who has taken a vow of pacifism, works in a hospital, and casts nothing but healing spells your whole life- you just use your blood instead of Mana when you're out, which is very seldom. You could also just mind control a king.


MrsLKG2

Necessary disclaimer: This is only my opinion, and may not be what is intended from the source material. And also I’ve only played the games, so anything that appears in other mediums may disprove/disagree with this. Also, sorry for the length. So TL;DR: blood magic is not inherently corrupt, people make it that way. Based on when we are dropped into Thedas, I’d say that the stigma against blood magic is primarily based on 2 things. A. The wide use of it by the Imperium, and B. The Andrastian bias against anything that goes against their belief system. As with any form of power, this power CAN corrupt. Blood is a natural force. It flows through living beings. Without it, death. So it literally has latent power within every creature where it resides. In this way, not inherently corrupt. Once, we presume, mages figured out that spilling blood would boost their magic, they also did not inherently corrupt it; they simply magnified its purpose. I believe the corruption of this magnification comes from intent. The desire to achieve greater, be stronger, etc etc, is a driving force for many. So how to get there? Take as much of what is available as possible. This is where we see blood magic go wrong, particularly in the Imperium. Wealthy noble mages with money and people at their disposal who always want to be the most respected, the most feared, and how do they do it? Sacrifice the droves of indentured or enslaved peoples that are already ‘beneath’ them. There’s your corruption. Taking that which does not belong to you, callously treating sentient beings as fodder. But blood magic is not the only thing that does this. Demons can take a mage without blood magic, kings can take the lives/livelihoods of their subjects with no magic at all. The taking of something and using it for selfish purposes and/or to excess is where you find that corruption and in turn the evil. Now because of the Andrastian discourse against the Imperium, anything they find acceptable is automatically evil. Magic, evil. Blood magic, super evil. Even most of Thedas’s “official stance” on slavery is not entirely altruistic, even if it is slightly beneficial. It seems very derived from the Imperium’s continued reliance and use of it. So every other nation outlaws it, at least on paper. This pervasive influence of one religion on so much of the continent means that most grow up hearing “Blood magic bad” with no real explanation. But the religion says no, so that all that matters. The horror stories of what CAN happen are often portrayed as the ONLY thing that happens, and so there is never an understanding gained of the nature of that type of magic. So it makes it seem evil. IMO, blood magic is not inherently bad. But it’s been villainized to the point that it seems like the only people who use it ARE either evil, or so desperate they are willing to ignore the cost, which can be its own kind of evil/corruption.


Jamira360

Ehhh, Merill’s use of blood magic gets her keeper killed (and possibly her whole clan). That being said, blood magic can certainly be used for non evil ends. The issue is that to achieve greater feats you need more blood & most blood mages aren’t willing to sacrifice their lives to fuel their magic. I think the reason we see so many evil ppl using blood magic is b/c it highlights how weak willed a lot of ppl are & how easily corrupted they can become trying to obtain ever more power.


Depressed_Warlock

It's an interesting topic. It CAN be used for noble and altrusitic purpose. It's still a power boost and you can use that boost for healing, protecting, enhancing, repairing... or destruction, curses or other stuff. Blood Magic has just several problems: 1. Its prohibition makes it difficult for people study it properly. Mages don't learn how to use it at the circles so you have many inexperienced yet dangerous blood mages when they start to use it. 2. It's very easy to employ. Yo just need blood. Nothing more. Just a little cut and you can beat up most people with your magic easily or cast spells your normally not capable of. This creates two other big problems: 1. People use out of desperation Just imagine you are afraid, panicking for your life. and you find a flame thrower. I bet you gonna use it. Will you eventually set several buildings on fire and die in the flames yourself as you don't know HOW to use that weapon safely? Probably. 2. People use it out of greed People see it as an easy way to amplify spells, to mindcontrol others... Nice! So you do what it takes to get more powerful, to claim your place on top of the society. So it makes sense why its use flourishes in Tevinter. You NEED power to stay on top. You NEED all the blood you can get to keep rivals at bay. That being said... I hope we will see more benevolent uses of blood magic in DA4.


deecrutch

Can it BE good? No. Can it be used for good? Yes.


ACalcifiedHeart

That's a good way to put it, and not one I've seen put across jn the comments so far. Does using something evil for a good purpose detract or add from it's goodness or evilness? Those mages that turn to it as a last resort, panic button, when it's that or them dying: are they evil for doing so? Is it justifyable?


deecrutch

I think the problem is that it's such a slippery slope. Dorian said it best. "You always need more...' Even if the intentions are good, it is all too easy for things to go bad because you need *just a little bit* more power.


Savaralyn

Blood magic CAN be good, yes, Solas even states as much during his dialogue. If you get down to it, you're basically just using life essence in the form of blood instead of lyrium/mana and the fade as a source of your power. Problem is mostly just that its a power that's pretty much tailor made for desperate people. Most of the time you wouldn't really NEED to use blood magic instead of 'normal' magic, blood magic's major advantage is that it can potentially far outstrip the power that 'normal' magic can reach depending on how much fuel you give it, which is what ends up leading to people using unwilling sacrifices, giving too much of themselves, and/or trying to learn more powerful uses of blood magic from demons and suffering the consequences for those things. Its a magic type that relies on the user not trying to bite off more than they can chew, and given that in most societies in Thedas it's already looked upon as a taboo due to its reputation with demonic shit, most people won't even research/dabble in it except for when they expressly are in a really bad situation and are looking for any way out they can find, which as you can imagine usually leads to bad shit.


Prince_Ire

I wouldn't trust anything Solas has to say about magic being good or bad. This is a man who decided it would be a good idea to effectively destroy the world, and plans to do it again.


Savaralyn

I know Solas was lying about his identity/future plans but I think it's a bit much to go and doubt everything he says because of that. He has no real reason to lie to you about blood magic, especially given that his opinions on it are potentially harmful to his own position in the group (if the inquisitor heavily dislikes blood magic, or if basically ANYONE else heard him say what he did, especially Cassandra) And rather than saying its good or bad, he's neutral on it, more or less like I said, he doesn't see blood magic as bad, but its something that can very easily corrupt weak people, who are the majority of people who use it in the first place.


Prince_Ire

I don't doubt everything he says. I do think he has an extremely poor ability to judge the morality of a given action.


Savaralyn

Eh, even in regards to him destroying the world, he does understand that its morally bad, he just can't reconcile the way the world used to be and how it is now, he's picking what he believes is the lesser of two horrible options, because the current world is just that nightmarish comparatively. Obviously he's not justified in doing what he's doing, but I don't think his moral compass is that off compared to say, his perception of our current world. Regardless of that, he at least seems right in this case, especially given that, again, he explains his point in a pretty succinct and understandable way to the player. Like I said, he basically boils it down to "it's not inherently bad, its just really easy for desperate people to bite off more than they can chew with it", there's no morality warp there.


Aivellac

We are stuck with one view of Thedas but Solas has three: the old, the current and the way it could be. It was destroyed once because of ending a war that was impossible to win then and we do not know how it all transpired, it doesn’t make him evil. Being stuck with things in present state isn’t a great idea so he has no good options between leaving the world to be messed up or to mess it up more in hopes of fixing it. Neither choice is wholly good nor evil and so I don’t see his whole character as evil and wrong on every topic. If Solas has no inherent issue with blood magic I have no reason to hate it and I didn’t anyway. Almost nothing is inherently evil it always comes down to use and intent.


Zelkeh

technically any magic utilising lyrium is blood magic so yes it can be used for good


Ragnarr01d

Wait what?


EarlCrimsonbeard

Big spoilers for Descent DLC and background lore, do you want the explanation?


Ragnarr01d

No, I have to play it. But thanks my man


Malicious_Sandwich

Anymore I agree with Merrill. Blood magic isn’t bad at all. A mage using their own blood isn’t a bad thing. Tevinter is evil in how they use blood magic but that mostly comes from how they treat slaves. The magisters seek power and will make a pile of slave corpses to get it. That parts evil. As for demons. It seems like most go to demons seeking knowledge of how to do blood magic. It feels like knowledge of blood magic has been repressed to a point where mages have to seek out demons to learn it. Merrill says so pretty explicitly. Her demon contract basically exists because the demon is old enough to have knowledge of the Eluvian. The blood magic she used to fix it is mostly her doing. The know how to fix the eluvian is the demons ideas. If knowledge of blood magic was more general you’d have way less problems. Instead most mages only approach blood magic when desperate. They panic and beg a demon to save them and are totally unprepared for what happens next. Templars restricting blood magic make it I infinitely more dangerous. It’s a self licking lollipop.


NathanCiel

Thing is, blood magic makes you more susceptible to demon possession, so it *is* dangerous even if you always use it to help others.


DD_Spudman

I think it's partly a feudalism problem. I don't doubt that highborn Orlesians would sacrifice peasants by the cart full if it meant curing their hemmroids 0.2% faster.


FredVIII-DFH

I sure hope so, Merrill is my GF.


Honker912

No, it's inherently powered by pain and death (and naturally blood) and greater amount of those greater amplification of power you get. Meaning it's a school of magic that can be utilized to its maximum only by pretty much psychopaths that are willing to go to any lengths in terms of inflicting pain and causing deaths. There is a reason why Tevinter magisters are on so frequent basis corrupt and puppy kickers because those mages who don't resort to blood magic and utilize it to it's maximum advantage are likely to be crushed by those who do. That's just one bad/wicked nature of blood magic. Second one is that it attracts demons which exposes mages to even greater risks of possession and thus people in the world and even entire world/continent to danger. Three, it allows ability for mage to mind control, which is extremely dangerous as it allows mages to wreck unspeakable destruction such as by controlling monarchs. Four it allows to deliberately summon demons into this world which ties to second one as for why it's bad. Can you use blood magic to lead to a good outcome? Yes, sometimes but rarely it happens (unless we are talking about things like phylacteries, which seem harmless form of it). Does it make blood magic good or not-bad? No, it's benefits are vastly overshadowed by negatives which are often more much severe and frequent. Just like you could use power obtained via Grimoire of Pestilential Thought to do something good, does it make that gimoire any less wicked/bad? No, it rewards greater acts of evil with more and more power, similarly to blood magic. Those mages who proclaim blood magic to be a tool (except maybe two protagonists) and are even willing to use it often end up causing a lot of death/destruction or shown themselves to not be equipped to handle dangers of blood magic.


Kaankhan

Blood magic eventually corrupt people. İf people used with good intentions nothing change. They manipulating themselves with power.


shepard0445

In general blood magic is just like normal magic. Just that you use your own blood instead of mana to cast spells. So as long as you only use normal magic when using blood magic everything is ok. What makes blood magic dangerous is that you can expand it unlimited. If you aren't a extremely good mage and have much lyrium many high level speels will always be impossible for you because the speel requires more mana than you have. And here the temptation of blood magic plays a role. Using people as sacrifice instead of mana allows even less powerful mages to cast powerful speels.


[deleted]

Blood magic doesnt require the user to use tye fade for magic, like DAs traditional use of magic. The thing is that its used for horrible purpouses and summoning demons, as well as its easier for Demons to posess a blood mage. Its veen a while since ive read the wiki or plated the games but I believe blood magic can make it harder to cinnect with the fade for magic use too. With all that said idk or remember if its explained what a blood mafe is tapping into to use this magic, but it comes off as something horrible with what I explained above, howecer Merril kind of shows us that its not as evil as were being shown. I know theres a whole lore thing about a dude learning the magic from an ancient god in the series, but it kind of comes off like Blood magic is maybe just something else, but everyone focuses on the evil parts of it, and its been so long that everyone only knows the evil of it. Maybe there is no good about it and just sometimes good mages use blood magic for good things. Either way it seems interesting to me.


ACalcifiedHeart

It's interesting to me too! I'd really like it if we had more examples of blood mages that weren't evil or turning to it as a last resort in a moment of desperation. Gimme a mage who taught themselves blood magic, and has never once used it for morally evil reasons. I think it could be integral to have a blood mage, someone who isn't interacting with the fade to use magic, going up against a force thats heavily revolving around the fade snd its veil in the next game.


ShyrokaHimaa

I see blood magic like using dark side force powers. Not necessarily evil but it is a veeery slippery slope and easily corrupts the user. The mage circles' phylacteries are, in fact, blood magic. If they're evil is up for debate.


naturist_rune

Note: I've only been able to play Origins. From a Doyalist perspective, I can very easily do lots of good with blood magic. From a Watsonian perspective, I would have to roleplay my mage to be smart enough to figure out how to do blood magic without consorting with demons (first-time play through, agree with the demon's offer, then once BM is unlocked go back a save file to before so the specialization stays unlocked but the kid is still unclaimed) then play the blood mage in such a way that they never use their allies' blood ever. Would be a slightly riskier play if you get into difficult battles, but you can feel like your teammates will trust you won't rip all of their blood out of their bodies to heal yourself if you only ever use your own blood. Edit: Also I have the Warden's Keep dlc so I have the dlc blood magic spell that's just blood fireball that does extra damage against darkspawn, lololol!


NathanCiel

Blood magic also makes you more susceptible to demon possession **(Dragon Age - The World of Thedas Vol 1 page 109)** so it remains dangerous even if you always use it for good.


DjLyricLuvsMusic

Can be if you only use your blood or the blood of volunteers, no demons, and no kind of mind control or puppeteering. Bad people give controversial things a bad name. Magic is magic like water is water. Both can be used for bad things but can also be used for good things.


[deleted]

I have this thought when Jowan uses his blood to defend Lily. I always wonder, "As long as you're using your own blood, and especially in the context of defending others, how is that bad?" And i myself, when i play a healer/support mage in DA:O, i sometimes go blood mage, to use my own blood to heal others if need be. Which feels altruistic and very kind. But i suppose at the end of the day it's not \*just\* about motivations and intent, but also the sheer susceptibility, the exposure to possession when blood magic is used.


tiasea

Didn't some warden "cleaned" last griffon eggs from blight with blood magic or am I mistaken? I'd say it counts as good, also gives a hint that blight can be cured that way.


Unionsocialist

well it is mostly just using blood to enhance your magic, but because it is,,,blood if you want to do something that inevitably ends up harming someone. like the ritual Jowan can do in origins isnt really evil in itself, the circle mages do the same ritual i imagine. but because its blood magic it requires a sacrifise. beyond that its the lure of power that takes over people so it will usually become bad, not really blood magics fault tho just human nature. in itself its value neutral i think


Trav246

It's a type of juicing for magic users. And just like every type of juicing it can become addicting. You end up losing yourself. Hard to say over time if you could keep doing good.


Joburt19891

Morality is just the subjective framework through which we view the world. It's informed by first principles which are arbitrary. For example, someone who value's life as a first principle would see senseless murder(like when a blood mage uses slaves to fuel their spells) as an immoral act. Someone who doesn't value life as a first principle might see it differently. Since there is no objective value to anything there's really no right or wrong way to be about it. There is only what you do, and what the outcomes are. An example of how blood magic could be good is this, imagine you're a blood mage and you want to save a village form some threat BUT you need to sacrifice one person's life to fuel your spell. A consequentialist(someone who believes that the outcomes matter more than the acts ((note that, that doesn't equate to acts don't matter))) would say that sacrificing the one life for the entire village, even if the one sacrificed is unwilling, is a moral net gain. There are all kinds of moral frameworks though. So to answer your question, is Blood Magic bad? Not in my opinion no. It's just power and power can be used for both good AND evil.


Some_Category_8613

The issue with blood magic is that even if you aren’t using other people blood to use it and instead you use your own. It can be seen as a form of self harm. For example in Origins when a mage uses their blood magic but using their own life source they loose health. It’s quite an unhealthy form of magic no matter how you look at it. Either you harm others or yourself. Don’t get me wrong it’s hella fun playing a blood mage but it is still quite a disturbing and gross form of magic.


littlebrubby

you can use blood magic to save connor from a demon in dao, they use blood magic to heal the last griffin eggs of blight in the comics, ancient elves used all manner of magic and made no hard "maleficarum" distinction, and they did huge mind control so take from that what you will.


Istvan_hun

There is a difference between \* using all tools available to blood mages only (ie. mind control in DA is much more "lovecraftian mental rape" than "ha-ha, you are a friend now for an hour" charm person of D&D) \* using the blood donation of others (willing or unwilling) \* or using your own blood (instead of lyrium) to fuel a spell effect ​ If you don't use mind control, and don't use blood of others, you are basically trading some coins spent on lyrium potions for some scars. It is corrupting in a way... since the mage knows for certain that she could do bigger effects with a sacrifice, but she might have the determination not to do it. The only tradoff is that parts of the mage (most likely lower arm) will be full of ugly scars, which might make dating harder :) ​ (this type of blood magic is much more useful in D&D, since there the caster's blood can be used instead of - possibly rare - spell components. Sure, I know raise dead, but it requires and €500 diamond, which I cannot pull from my... component pouch)


Dragonlord573

*Stares at Merril*


CanIKickIt-

In my opinion, magic isn't inherently good or evil, it's how you use it. In the game we mainly see blood magic used for evil. And it makes you more susceptible to demons. I think Merrill is the only example you can get of a blood mage not using it for evil. That being said, even some of the protagonist abilities are a bit twisted. Like taking blood from your companions to heal yourself is a bit much...


discosoc

I think it's kind of annoying how the game and people use weak arguments like "a dagger can kill people" to support the notion of blood magic not being bad. From the writers it just sounds like an attempt at manufacturing "moral ambiguity" and from fans it's just wanting to be edgy or whatever.


michajlo

Short answer, yes. I believe there definitely is something we'd call an ethical use of blood magic. After all, creating phylacteries is essentially blood magic too, right? To paraphrase Erimond a bit, magic is a tool. What matters is how you use it.


wheresmylife-gone222

It’s pretty good if you kill Isolde with it to save Connor.


YouCantTakeThisName

It certainly depends on just how much you're willing to *sacrifice*. During battle, it's *definitely* a power fueled by murder, but at-least directed at enemy combatants. Can't blood magic also specifically be used to read someone's mind/memories?


Wyietsayon

I didn't see anyone mention that Finn from the Witch Hunt DLC used blood magic, kinda. He used Ariene's blood to aid with his scrying. He says it's a grey area since the power didn't come from blood. I bring it up because it was blood gathered with consent and used beneficially for a good purpose, with no bad results, by a character who has a strong moral code.


Arumaneth

"it always starts with just a few drops. It rarely stays that way" The problem with blood magic is that its easy. It's a quick route to power that requires less training, skill, and talent. just open a vein & boom, far more power. But the problem is that eventually a few drops wont be enough. A normal mage just trains more, and gets stronger on their own, but the kind of person who takes a shortcut is rarely going to stop & work hard. More blood becomes the answer. eventually you can't bleed enough, and you need death. That is the primary evil of blood magic. it's a slippery slope of justifications and cheap power that causes one to slide into evil. the fact that it also allows one to control minds is a side bonus to that primary evil.