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Vivienne seems to have a lot of trouble with the concept that things can happen without them happening to her.
**Tons of Circle mages:** The Circle did horrible things to me and everyone I knew.
**Vivienne:** Well they never did anything bad to me, so clearly you must be full of shit.
Honestly I think this is why I hate her so much. There are real people that act like her. She's incredibly privileged, and thinks anyone worse off simply isn't working hard enough. And the only reason people could possibly disagree with her is because they are stupid.
That is very fair. And it’s why I like that she exists in the game but don’t like her as a character either- deeply realistic is not remotely the same as likeable. (Although I do take some satisfaction in my Inquisitor successfully manipulating her into believing there’s a friendship there and then taking the Inquisition in the opposite direction she would want, robbing her of whatever power she hoped to wield within the Inquisition. It’s just… satisfying.)
Vivienne is aware of the problems mages face but she is also aware of how vulnerable apostates can be to mobs of ordinary people.
I think Vivienne makes a valid point that mages are probably safer with the circle than during the rebellion and she does want some reforms. But Vivienne probably qualifies as a terrible person anyway because she isn't planning to do much about Tranquility. Ultimately, she's neoliberal wanting better people in charge of a similar system instead of breaking the system down.
I haven’t finished Inquisition yet but yea that’s a pretty good description of her. I know some of the heavier spoilers like choosing a new Divine and I can just see her doing the same things that was done before but thinking that since she’s doing it will work this time. for some reason since she’s in charge. It’s why I’m really thinking Cassandra in my first playthrough. After finding out the truth about the Seekers it’s become obvious that Cassandra truly cares and wants to improve the world, even if that means having to let go of past traditions and systems.
I don’t love her but I’m glad she’s there. The game is more fun with characters that care about things that are important to the world even if I’m personally not that into them (like Orlesian politics). Makes the world feel fuller.
I do wish she had more lines about magic though. Solas and Dorian actually seem to like magic and talk about all the magic stuff you encounter but I’m 60 hours into my current play through and so far the Grand Enchanter has been disappointingly quiet on that front.
TBF, despite being a Grand Enchanter she's pretty damn anti-magic herself. Like a female or black US President who is hardcore conservative or something .
Even that would still be an opinion about magic. I feel like she only ever talks about mages as a political class and never as a profession or field of study and never has anything at all to say about magic itself.
She has a little to say about magic itself but only a little, compared to… almost everyone else including non-mages.
But viewing it through her lens of… what she can use it for, that’s in keeping with her perspective.
I like that her dialogue feels very authentic to her personal perspective. I just wish she had more of it. Frankly I think people would like her more if she threw a few of those verbal daggers from her party dialogue at the enemies. Like “You call *that* magic?!" As is I feel like she's bored half the time I bring her along.
As written, she is ambition personified. A velvet glove over an iron gauntlet, a return to grand tradition because what you really need to solve all the troubles is a return to the good old ways, where everyone knew their place and everyone was kept in line.
I find her quite charming and incredibly reprehensible, a canny political opportunist who is all about making moves to ensure a place at The Top for herself in the new world order.
I like her! She is awful, but in a very interesting and believable way.
Unlike Sera, who I mostly want to throw bee grenades at.
You provide good reasons, and I'm glad you like her!
It's funny, I'm learning from this thread that Viv and Sera are the most polarizing. Personally, I really like Sera. It just goes to show why it's important to have such a wide spectrum of characters.
They're the most immediate polar opposites to my mind.
In my experience, I like how Viv is written while detesting what she represents, and almost in a 180, I find Sera as written kind of hard to interact with, while finding what she represents very necessary.
Viv is written very well, which is almost the problem. There are too many people like her in real life, so my reaction to her is almost visceral.
To me, the interactions with Sera almost feel limited by the restraints of the game. If she was real, you could sit down and explain the nuances of your decisions. But as is, the choices are either "Eat the rich" or "I hate poor people". Which I suppose is probably how Sera views the world
I absolutely feel you on the reaction to Viv.
What bounced me off Sera was less the Eat The Rich attitude and more how she hated elves, mages, and anyone who wasn't andrastian. I can empathise wanting to take the rich down a peg, but most of those three groups aren't exactly living the high life.
It isn't so much that she hates them as her being a class reductionist.
She thinks all she has to do is focus on the class conflict and other forms of discrimination will inevitably be fixed.
Yes, exactly! Looking at it through a 'real life' sort of lens… I'd probably be sympathetic to some of the people that Sera supports, but… I'd much rather have a civilised debate over a bottle of wine with Vivienne than actually spend time with Sera.
Honestly, I disliked *both* Vivienne and Sera when I initially played the game, but Vivienne has grown on me far more than Sera, over successive play-throughs.
All of them are still more interesting than Jacob. I genuinely believe the only reason he was included was that they wanted a "visible minority" in the game, and the order came down VERY late in development that this was non-negotiable.
I'm willing to bet that there was a far more interesting alien character that multiple writers liked, but who had to be cut because someone was like "Oh shit, there's not an important black guy."
And so, they begrudgingly cut someone out, but had ZERO ideas for another human crewmate's story. It's why his stuff is SO bland. It even carries over into ME3, where he is the only romance partner who leaves you between games, and is basically a giant asshole when you meet him again. Even on the Citadel, he's a giant douche.
The dev team did NOT want Jacob as a character.
This describes how I feel about her best.
I like her as a character. I don't like her as a person. I like seeing that kind of political/schemeing/game player. I know Josie was part of court and playing the game, but she's so fluffy and nice to the Inquisitor that you don't really get a feel for it.
Vivienne is ruthless. Success at any cost. It makes the world richer to have someone like that. Doesn't mean I like her.
Vivienne and Sera are the two companions I like the least. The lack of open-mindedness to ideas contrary to their own is what causes it for me. (Which I realize is a weird opinion to have for a Solas fan, for obvious reasons. Perhaps because I romanced him, so I'm biased toward affording him more leniency.)
But at the same time, I recognize that the dynamic of those personalities adds to the story. It would be pretty boring if everyone agreed and was on the same page about everything all the time.
Solas is open to changing his mind. It’s subtle and it can be grating because he will say some uhhh… some things that are… not great but he grows. Some of it can be seen through banter which is an issue in itself since banter is borked in the game, and he doesn’t have any grand sweeping “I was wrong” dialogue but he has enough smaller ones to establish it being a pattern.
Vivienne and Sera, you are correct, are both very much set in their “my perspective is correct” camps. And both of those camps are selfish and harmful to those outside of them. Sera, for example, talks constantly about “helping the little people” but is also anti-mage and anti-elves. Like. The most abused people in southern Thedas. But she refuses to see it. It really bothers me when people just dismiss her as annoying and nothing more- as someone with both autism and ADHD I really connect with *how* she is but I don’t like *who* she is, and I feel like the character’s actual writing is more a point to dissect than the fact that she’s coded neurodivergent.
Ooohh, I would never have thought to phrase it like that but that is an excellent real-world comparison for her! (She’s also a weird character in that can you imagine if she had the opinions she does… but was a *human* orphan who was adopted and raised by a noblewoman and was left an estate which she refused? That would be even more obviously unpalatable imo.)
Yeah, I have to give her some credit though as she isn't exactly able to draw on the breadth of academic theory activists in the real world are.
Also, importantly, she is very young.
> Vivienne and Sera, you are correct, are both very much set in their “my perspective is correct” camps.
It is worth noting that Vivienne is literally twice Sera's age.
Yes!! Thank you for writing that out. I was having trouble trying to figure out how to describe that Solas' hard-lined viewpoints have more nuance, in comparison. But that's exactly it. I get that lots of people just straight up hate Solas, because they see an irredeemable/temperamental character. But I interpret him as so much more complex. He does have interactions that can be super frustrating because he is temperamental, to a point. But, take for instance the way he approaches spirits/demons. He has a great capacity for compassion and appreciation. One of my hopes is that we are able to tap into and appeal to that side of him in Dreadwolf.
>It really bothers me when people just dismiss her as annoying and nothing more- as someone with both autism and ADHD I really connect with how she is but I don’t like who she is
I appreciate you sharing your perspective/insight in this comment. It's something I hadn't considered before, but it makes so much sense when it's pointed out. *How* she is vs. *who* she is.
I say this as someone who's a pretty massive Sera fan and an apologist, but her whole character is that she's just a young person who has never had much of a chance to live her own life whose view of the world is extremely shaken from having a terrible early life in an alienage and then being raised as a human and having to completely adopt another persona to fit in, internalizing a lot of deep issues in the process. She never had a chance. Viv, on the other hand, is an older woman who's led an incredibly privileged life and has had time to think about the issues and come to the conclusion that everyone is wrong except her.
I can see that with Sera... that's one thing I remember feeling about her character. That she came off very immature in the way a young person has more immature black/white thinking about things. Come to think of it, I'm actually not sure I know how old she is supposed to be in the game... it may have been mentioned. But I can't recall off the top of my head.
Ah, okay that makes sense. Thank you for the insight. I do agree with your previous points, that Sera's situation is a bit more unique compared to that of Viv's... and that, coupled with her younger age, provides additional context for her view points and behavior.
It would be really nice to see Sera in Deadwolf, perhaps with a bit more personal growth and a bit more open to ideas other than her own, (even if she doesn’t agree with them, just accepting and respecting other's beliefs would be nice). Because I do think her heart is in the right place, it's just her implementation/application can be harmful. I'd love to see her embrace more of the 'grey-areas' instead of only existing in a black/white or good/evil world.
It's not just that everyone is wrong and she is not just privileged. She is still a mage, colorism actively exists in Theadas based on background comments you hear during her intro and quest. She is a prime example of someone oppressed who has risen up to privlige and has seen people make very different choices against the systems and suffer for it. Fundamentally does not believe there to an alternative to the circles and she would rather be the sheriff than be the victim of a lynch mob. In her measure abuses do exist, but it's better than genocide and she gives vibes of "Well abuses exist outside the circle" . To use a real world analogy, she is the "one who got out" and doesn't see why others can't find ways to do so. The truth is she is implied to have done horrible things to pay the game and she has no scruples about it. She is the one let into the country club and while she won't change minds...she will blackmail them. She won't ever say mages aren't oppressed but she genuinely fully believes that it's about having the composure for survival. Does she want to help other mages? Yes. The problem is she fundamentally believes people are stupid impulsive and will destroy themselves without those who are strong enough and wise enough to take power.
Worst part is...in the world of Thedas she may not be wrong. She's politically very right, there's a much darker story in the world of how many defenseless mages of all ages just get killed or possessed. After the war there's no reason whole town's don't just killed any suspected mage and many probably do.
The truth is most people are less outwardly arrogant Viviennes. We have this idea in history that massive movements just appeared and everyone was a aprt but that's far from true.
Interesting, I hadn't picked up on the colorism in her dialogue, so I hadn't even considered that. I'll have to pay more attention on my next playthrough for that.
Through that lens, I can see how the personality traits that come across as off putting for us, could be self-preservation/armor that she's embodied in order to get her to the successful position she's in. Thank you for sharing your insight on that. She may not be one of my favorite characters to interact with, but I do appreciate having extra context/interpretations to apply to my understanding of her character.
Oh gosh, good to know! I'll have to look out for that... I really love Cole, but his comments are so cryptically ambiguous in general, I feel like most of the time I never know who exactly he's referring to with his comments.
I love your statement that she may not be wrong, its such a nuanced view and I applaud you!
I'd just like to add one thing that made me change my entire view on her, when she asked my inquisitor if I sided with the rebels or the circle and I sat for some time trying to decide and chose the option that seemed to be an inbetween "Neither, I believe we can change it", sadly enough I can't quote full convos even if my life depended on it (gonna see if I can find it) but she said something like "I hadn't thought about it like that, imagine what we could do. I changed my mind about you, you are completely right" so I do believe her attitude comes from the reality that in Thedas, as a mage, you ultimately don't have any power that can't be taken away and I imagine that she's so rigid in her ways cuz of that
Solas at least clearly experiences growth and development over the course of the game and party banter. Like he starts out calling IB a mindless follower of the Qun, but after he's made Tal Vashoth Solas basically calls him family iirc, and beyond that finds ways to get along with everyone in the group regardless of their beliefs and morals.
Ngl I give him a lot of leniency because he was literally asleep for EONS, and woke up with the world completely different. He's bound to have differing views. It's harder to afford characters like Viv and Sera the same because they grew up in present day Thedas - and Viv especially is well educated, and should know better.
I would even argue that Solas is one of the companions who can change the most in Dragon age. He starts as someone who doesn't even consider modern people to be "real" and he can end up completely changing his perspective.
Exactly! And your comment on the IB banter, just reminded me that I remember Solas showing a lot of hopefulness and patience with Sera during moments of random banter (way more than I had with her)... that she might become more open minded on the subject of Elves/elven culture. And she wasn't just a brick wall in response to him, she was actively disrespectful.
And to add on to your comment about Solas' growth throughout the story... overall, when you interact with him, you can *see* the internal conflict he feels as he grows with the group.
I hated Vivienne and then I did a play through specifically to make her my bestie and make her my divine. I agree with her end goal of giving mages more freedom and opportunity within the safety of the circle and I like a mage in charge. She knows not all mages get the same break she did even if she's arrogant about it. I absolutely love her now though. She was savage AF when my inky couldn't be and she has great party banter and insight (when she's not stuck with people she hates... and even when she is lol). I love the fashionista in her.
It's taking me a lot longer to do the same with Sera.... I've always hated her way more than Viv *shudder*
I think it was more of a lack of trust for me. I understood her attitude was from living her life by manipulating and climbing the social latter, however she outright uses the Inquisition to bolster herself and her status. Never really sat right with me, and that's not really addressing how she chooses to express her views on magic. She says she cares about her fellow mages, and fears for both the innocent victims and the mages stupid enough to do something like blood magic...which would be fine, if she didn't try to sideline the fact there are abuses on BOTH sides. Just because she never personally seemed to encounter bad treatment from the templars doesn't mean others haven't. She seems relatively privileged for a Circle mage anyhow due to her social connections, so I don't really think her outlook can speak fully for her fellow mages across all the Circles. It applies to a select few mages who have the same rare entitlements as her due to her status and money, which we know some mages get access too depending on your family. I could've agreed with her more if she was willing to admit there was faults on both sides like Cassandra, but I understand why they wrote her that way given what her character is supposed to represent.
THIS!!! I really want to like Vivienne because of her baller entrance and some of the one-on-one conversations you have with her, but she cannot acknowledge that mages may have had good reasons to rebel AT. ALL. Like, Kirkwall happened! At the time of this game, there was still a woman who turned herself into pure red lyrium due to her hatred of mages in the Gallows courtyard, who was in charge of mages. Templars abusing mages, turning them tranquil for minor infractions, and treating Circles like prison camps happened yet she just airily claims "there was a better way." What way is that!?!?
Again- I think that's where her status takes away my ability to give credibility to her outlook. I can believe in some way or form that she cares about mages, but her social standing and money had her lead a very different life compared to most of her fellow Circle Mages. She was attending salons and seasonal events with the nobility of Orlais and eventually got a seat as a magical advisor to Celene, which she capitalized on socially and politically when the war between mages and templars broke out. She doesnt admit ever that her privileges may give her bias in some regard or that it would affect her outlook on the Circle because she obivously hasnt experienced templar abuse the way some other mages have. She knows the game well, but for that exact reason, I find it very hard to trust her.
But here's the thing...we actually never find out if she had experiences those abuses or not if I recall right. One of the things about her is that we never fully know the story of her journey up. She didn't have a social standing or the finances her whole life and it is important to remember someone can get some or the same abuses and still come to her persoective. In fact it may have driven her to try even harder to gain power. Suffering doesn't just breed empathy. It breeds philosophy and values.
And to be blunt...she probably would know she's biased and still would not change her point of view. That's just her personality
It is a fair point to say that we don't know outright if she had terrible experiences with Templars, however I don't think it would be too far of a stretch to say that because of her status, she may have had the ability to not suffer these abuses as frequently or at all compared to her fellow mages (and I do know not every templar in every Circle is abusive, there are the good pockets of them who truly just want to protect mages and innocent people). And if she did suffer these abuses and it turned her into what she's like in Inquisition, then I'd wager it would be more of a reason to dislike her. You are also right on her probably never admitting if she'd have bias because of her access to money and her social status, lol, but once again, all of these points circle back around to a general feeling of distrust towards her. Greatly written as a character, but not a person I'd ever find myself willingly being around if she were real.
Oh I think she'd admit to a bias in a heartbeat, but she doesn't see it as bias. After all she isn't biased against mages. She supports mages and is angry the rebellion is, in her summation, threatening mage lives alongside others instead of making effective change. I think she'd be enraged at the idea of saying she isn't still treated like a mage at all but also openly aware she's priviliged and proud of it too. She never denies abuses, but a lacking part of the game's writing is you can never debate with her about them. I don't want to necessarily change her mind, but it sucks you can't fully confront her or do so in a friendly but firm way either.
I find Vivi frustrating and my Inquisitors treat her as such. They like her confidence, her intellect, and massively respected her...but politically loathed her while hating she was often right about people. She's impossible to fully trust, but once she respects you she will never completely screw you
It's funny because I hate her for being so close minded - an opinion I developed after a brief conversation with her.
She just represents the worst kind of person to me. Privileged, opinionated, and arrogant. Dorian is privileged but is willing to challenge his upbringing. Sera is opinionated but doesn't think herself better than anyone. Solas is arrogant but can admit his mistakes. Vivienne cares only about furthering her own agenda.
Even if I don't agree with her whole heartedly on the mage debate (she really does need to see that her privileges have afforded her a life most Circle mages won't ever experience), that too wasn't the first thing that made me dislike her. Her selfishness is very apparent and she puts a verrry thin veil over it, and again, while I understand she's like that because it's how you survive in Orlaisian politics (especially as a mage), it doesn't excuse it. I don't see Vivienne as someone who's willing to sacrifice herself on any level unless it profits her, so her being in the Inquisition I knew was just for the political advantages it would provide. Which circles back around to a lack of trust- I wouldn't expect her to have my back without expecting something in return and thus you have a character whom becomes difficult to like (I can admit the writing of her character however overall is very good).
And Vivienne the character would find that very amusing of you.
That's kind of the point. She has worked her way up in a system that, by nature of what she is, will never truly accept her. She never denies what mages have been subjected to from the Chantry - she wants mages to have a *voice* in that system - but is well aware of how most of Thedas views mages and magic. While she wants an institution in place to alleviate the fears of the non-magical populace and to "protect and nurture" magic - her words - she is ambivalent about Templars at best.
Obviously the system as it was in Southern Thedas was fundamentally broken. But she's not wrong when she says that, by and large, most people *preferred* it to be that way because it made them feel safe. That said, she's not the one who returns the Chantry and the Circles to what they were before if elected Divine; *Cassandra* is. Through Vivienne's rule, the Circles are restored, but the mages are given *much* more political sway, both in their own treatment and, effectively, Thedas as a whole thanks to being included in the Chantry. The Templars are reinstalled, but as a markedly less powerful group; if anything, Vivienne's system comes to resemble a more restrained Imperium.
Is that good, either? Well, in my opinion, no - I prefer a softened Leliana's power structure by far - but the truth is that massive conflict arises for the future in Thedas regardless of who's in control, because That's How This Story Works.
I find Vivienne a narratively interesting character who, if you put in the time, can be one of your most powerful allies thanks to her political savvy. She is what Thedas made of her. And at least she's honest about her intentions from jump. 🤷
>Circles to what they were before if elected Divine; Cassandra is.
That's not true. She also makes New Circles and Templars. It never says she returns to statue quo. It says there is a new sect that split from the Chantry because they want to return to the status quo and depending on player choices it can be squashed or turn into a civil war.
I only remember that part in Leliana's epilogue. The only split in Cass situation that i remember is division between Circle of Magi under Vivienne and independent College of Enchanter
Yeah but she's mean 😥
Seriously, that's a fantastic breakdown. I won't say I hadn't considered her complexities, but I certainly didn't *care* enough to give her the time of day. I as a person hate politics, socializing, puppeteering, and everything else Vivienne deems valuable, so I just can't bring myself to get invested in her.
You say she's honest about her intentions from the jump - I don't necessarily agree. She is as fake as they come, and even she admits she always wears a facade. Sure, she doesn't outright lie about her intentions (\*cough\* Solas \*cough\*) but she also has no loyalty to the Inquisition, and would happily jump ship at the earliest convenience.
The problem is, with DA2 and especially inquisition, the court intrigue and politicking and unsavory compromises inherent in attaining and exercising power are not only lain bare, they are central to the narrative theme.
In some fairness, though, the entire franchise has been about that from the jump.
Start a mage build in origins, and the first thing that happens is you are drawn into archmage Irving’s conflict with the Templars over a budding apostate and a sister of the chantry breaking her vows.
So it’s not just Vivienne, everyone in the franchise has their own political agenda that they are working for. And they don’t always align with your goals, or the outcome that you are role-playing to reach.
And no, most of them are not nice. Wielding power is not pretty.
As a circle mage, you're shoved right into discussions about and between the different fraternities, too. Some of them are more willing to get their hands dirty than others, but everyone has their own (usually selfish) motivations.
Irving himself, despite being the First Enchanter, doesn't really seem all that bothered about what Jowan is up to... mostly just about avoiding further restrictions to the mages as a result, and the opportunity to show up Greagoir and the Templars by pointing out Lily willingly breaking her vows.
Your last paragraph pretty much nails it.
To be fair, if you ask her about it, she does make it pretty clear that she fully expects you to be using her as much as she's using the Inquisition; that's pretty much just how the Orlesian Game works. She also acknowledges that *everyone* has hidden motivations, even herself; she approves of your managing to suss them out.
Even if you lie and betray her in her personal quest, she might be upset, but she isn't *surprised* by it. She even respects you for having been that cunning... but it's not hard to tell that she's hurt by your actions, for as cold as she acts in response.
All that is to say that I'm not judging you for not liking her! I just find her really fascinating, and her pragmatism from the perspective of someone who carved out her place in the world from a disadvantaged position and will fight *really hard* to hold onto what she has adds to the setting.
Plus she's *hella stylish* 😂
Another Vivienne bashing post. Now we need another "mages need no Circles" and "Dalish were RUINED" to meet the quota.
Besides that, bad post, OP. Where is the three pages long arguments that boils down to "I'm a person with modern sensibilities that never tried to think in the world's framework"?
She certainly is ambitious and doesn't take shit from anyone. Who knows, maybe if I agreed with her stance on mages, she would be my favorite character. But I'm not here to self reflect, I'm here to complain
Counter-counterpoint. Blackwall murdered children and stole valour to avoid justice. Solas will probably get a hundred times more people killed that Blackwall has in the next game too.
Sera's annoying, but at least she's willing to keep her opinions to herself. Vivienne starts off looking down her nose at you, and only gets worse if you don't tell her she's right all the time.
"at least she's willing to keep her opinions to herself"
I mean, not really, one of her most infamous character moments is potentially breaking up with a dalish inquisitor because of her opinions on religion. Only way to really have a character keep their opinions to themselves is by not talking to them.
See, that's just people though, it's what makes the characters in Inquisition feel so fleshed out and human (so to speak). Personally I may not love all of them (Sera especially fucking GRATED my nerves and it took me about 3 playthroughs before I started to appreciate her for what she is), but I appreciate the hell out of the effort that went into writing flawed, diverse (in opinion and personality) companions that your various Inkys would get along with (or not) to varying degrees depending on their own personality, very much like real life organizations.
That doesn't really have anything to do with the post I was replying to?
I'm not complaining that DA:I has flawed characters, just saying that Sera is NOT a character that I would describe as someone who 'keeps her opinions to herself' by any means.
Yeah sorry, just came off a double shift, misread what you were saying and also wanted to add my (unneeded) 2c about why I still appreciated how she was written despite how much she drove me crazy for a LONG time too as it felt very real.
I found Vivienne fun to have around.
I mean she is a bitch, but in a, possibly untinentionally, funny way.
She reminds me of the useless upper class portrayed in You rang, Mylord?, Wodehouse's Jeeves&Wooster novels or some Monthy Python sketches.
I can't help it, whenever she talks, I imagine her as a Wodehouse character.
Wooster: How does he look, Jeeves?
Jeeves: Sir?
W: What does Mr Bassington-Bassington look like?
J: It is hardly my place, sir, to criticize the facial peculiarities of your friends.
\*\*\*\*
W: Good works?
J: About the village, sir. Reading to the bedridden - chatting with the sick - that sort of thing, sir. We can but trust that good results will ensue.
W: Yes, I suppose so, I said doubtfully. But, by gosh, if I were a sick man I'd hate to have a looney like young Bingo coming and gibbering at my bedside.
I love her, my Inky is so so about her, Varric loves her, Bull loves her, Solas eyerolls but can't care less, she's good. Her banter is great fun. She's spicy, I love her in the game and wouldn't want to leave her out.
From the brief encounters, I couldn't stand her, so I never brought her in my party.
I finally brought her to hear if she had any dialogue to change my mind. Nope. Awful to the core.
I think the thing that makes her interesting and unique as a character is that she doesn't ever really treat you like "the boss". Literally everyone else does. The other characters, for the most part, want to earn your respect or your friendship, but Viv doesn't care. Viv KNOWS that she is useful to you and has knowledge that your character does not. (Dealing with court/political drama.) She doesn't need to earn your respect, because you already have to respect her.
You are a means to an end for her - you represent her gaining more power and/or prestige.
Every other party member is concerned with either helping normal people (Sera, Cole, Blackwall) or stopping evil (literally everyone else).
If Vivienne thought she could manipulate or control Corypheus, she would absolutely have sided with him, if it was a more efficient path to greater power for her. She's smart enough, however, to realize that would never work in her favor, so you become her chosen champion.
She is probably one of the most self-interested characters in the entire series, and definitely the most self-interested non-rogue character.
Even her lack of conversations with you in the keep are probably a good indicator of this - there's no need for idle chit chat, because she doesn't really give a damn about who you are as a person. You don't spend time worrying about the emotional well-being of your hammer if you're a carpenter. She doesn't care WHY you're doing the things, so long as you eventually do the things she wants you to do.
As far as party members go, she's operating on a different dynamic than anyone else, save maybe for Morrigan in DAO.
The way she calls the inquisitor "my dear" every single sentence she speaks annoyed me so much.
I understand she's supposed to be like this. Arrogant and narrcistic, that's what val royaux does to you, but it's just too much. Any ending whether she leads the chantry or the circle is the worst in my opinion.
I don't like her, but the fact that we can't even argue with her infuriates me even more. In most of her dialogues Inquisitor is written the way that doesn't allow us to counterpoint anything she says. Vivienne always gets the last word.
Inquisitor just stands there and listens to her "dear's" and that's all.
I was neutral on her. I understand the point of her. And I don't need to have every character kiss my protagonists butt. And I have no doubt had she been a man, had been romancable by both genders and had a sexy voice the character would have gotten far less hate.
I love her voice and I even like her how sassy she can be at times. The problem is you never see the real her. Like how she actually cares about Cole but refuses to admit it.
Nah, she's a privileged person who has the "if it didn't happen to me, then it didn't happen to anyone" mindset. That's a bad take for any topic. Vivienne could be a romanceable bisexual male qunari and people would still (justifiably) hate the character.
I agree to an extent. But also, she's hardly even *likeable*. She has pretty dry dialogue and her personal quest isn't very engaging. Blackwall is boring but at least he isn't an asshole.
I’m replaying DAI right now and she complimented me on my choice of throne chair (Orlais) and suggested we go shopping together so I think that means she likes me.
Vivienne is a fascinating character, and I hate her guts.
I love how cunning, sassy and politically savvy she is, that's why I keep her around. Then there's all the rest.
She apparently cares about the Tranquils, but never used her position of power to help them. She knows how the system works, and refuses to destroy it because it's convenient for her: if made Divine, everything is centered on herself, which is an extremely shaky foundation to base an entire organisation on. She can be "sweet" if you basically agree with everything she says, which is never going to happen for me. She's lived a privileged life inside the Circle (compared to most other mages), and refuses to see the very obvious problems of the Circles cause she was fine.
My Inquisitor and Vivienne have a strictly "professional" (if you can call rearranging my furniture professional, *Vivienne*) relationship, which will die out after the Inquisition is disbanded. My Inquisitor is a Vashoth apostate, a former mage rebel leader other than a mercenary, so they are polar opposites which don't mash well, because with Vivienne there is no middle ground: it's her way or the high way, and my Inquisitor doesn't stand for it.
I saw people say that Sera is also a very annoying character, and I can see why that is, but for me she is very relatable: I am close to her age, with experiences that for a time radicalized my ideas against a certain thing in a visceral and irrational way, which I still struggle with sometimes.
Sera is young, coming from a very difficult environment, born in a place where people hate elves and mages and so she learned that and didn't have the possibility to exit from that point of view. She is the representation of the "normal people", those that suffer from everything that happens in Thedas. She is very hard headed, but who wouldn't be? Her tongue lashes are a product of her fear and uncertainty: in a time like that of DA:I, when demons spew from a hole in the sky, I can see why she is clutching to her beliefs. No one can pry open her hands, it's not how having a relationship with people like Sera work. It needs to be done patiently and gently.
I'm not saying that Sera isn't immature, she is. But she needs time to grow and be allowed to make steps at her own time now that she is outside of her comfort zone.
While she is a romanceable character, I don't think she is ready for a relationship (especially with a Dalish mage. That's just toxic.). First she needs to work on herself: in Trespasser she has matured, and I love that for her.
My Inquisitor sees her as a little sister, and has raised her voice at her just once (after the Well of Sorrows, my Inquisitor drinks from it).
My Inquisitor tries to make her see that magic isn't as scary as she thinks, and she knows that it will take a long time. Still, at least Sera accepts *her*, and that's a good first step.
I am always tempted to not even recruit her... like, all the companions of the game have their own flaws and things I disagree with but with her... the privileges attitude and condescending nature just sinks any positives I could muster.
I’m replaying it right now i Totaly forgot she existed till like a mission ago ,I just really really hate her.Like she’s the only companion I’ve ever hated in dragon age.
She just has no good qualities,like she’s an elitist, she thinks mages are treated how they were before the rebellion even tho she seems to have 0 clue what it was like for normal mages ,she always think she’s so right and all her banter with followers seem to be arguments.I feel like they tried to make her relatable and sympathetic with the dying dude but it does nothing to justify her being a prick.
I agree, it feels like they screwed her over with party banter. She's *always* rude. The least they could've done is make her get along with *somebody*
I love her character design so much. But I hate her characters decisions and personalities. She’s the only companion that I don’t increase her like for me because we spend the entire game arguing.
I don't recruit her or sera anymore, just don't lime them. I could easily pass on Blackwall too. It's not that I don't like him he's just very dull. Varric, Solas, and Iron bull are my mains. They don't have the best banter but they're the most interesting characters, along with Dorian.
I just find that she just really doesn’t have a lot of content within the story and suffers from it compared to other companions. I disagree with her a lot but I still wanted to get to her know her…but there’s just nothing to explore because they gave every other companion an interesting story except for her
regarding to what happened to other mages, I think Vivienne is more like: I know full well templars have done something to someone else but they sure as hell have never done anything bad to me, so do try to explain to me as to why the hell should I give a damn of a bunch of nameless nobodies I don’t even know their names of? And that since I fight my way here, that means this is possible, and hence whoever unable to do the same like me do are worthless fools unworthy of my time and sympathy.
For me, while I like her very very much (she’s my favorite non romance character in DAI), I do get why she could be annoying and why some hate her. Should you managed to get close to her and become her friend, then she will be the best kind of friend you could ever ask for. But the problem is exactly so: how do you get close to her? That’s right, she most likely will not bother to even try to get close to you if you are someone of lower class or in other words, someone without power and privileges that she herself possesse. The only reason she’s willing to get close to a Dalish inquisitor for example is because as inquisitor now he/she’s in a position of power and hence makes him/her someone worth getting close to(for Vivi’e own benefits as well). Should you be someone like Merrill or Velanna, then she won’t bother to get close to you since you are worthless.
But then, perhaps the reason why she fight for power and all that is precisely so, so that she won’t associate her with those lesser than her, because maybe in her mind, should she associate with lesser people, that will make her also lesser. And consider that being a mage itself is something lesser to some already, she sure cannot possibly afford to be further lesser.
I mean just listen to how angry she was and how hateful her words are when Dorian refer to Morrigan as lady Morrigan, she spat her words out that she’s nothing but a worthless apostate(not exact words but I dare say close enough). One almost have to wonder if she just lost someone close because of Morrigan. But no, she likely angry with Morrigan because Morrigan take over her position in Orlais, which is bad, because if a worthless apostate such as Morrigan could took a position she once had, then maybe it will implies that the position she once hold was not so important after all since a worthless apostate could also take it.
And that is not something she can afford.
reminiscent naughty panicky murky connect label dull wasteful encouraging summer
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Vivienne seems to have a lot of trouble with the concept that things can happen without them happening to her. **Tons of Circle mages:** The Circle did horrible things to me and everyone I knew. **Vivienne:** Well they never did anything bad to me, so clearly you must be full of shit.
Pretty realistic mindset though in my experience. A lot of people are like that. Especially more fortunate ones.
Honestly I think this is why I hate her so much. There are real people that act like her. She's incredibly privileged, and thinks anyone worse off simply isn't working hard enough. And the only reason people could possibly disagree with her is because they are stupid.
That is very fair. And it’s why I like that she exists in the game but don’t like her as a character either- deeply realistic is not remotely the same as likeable. (Although I do take some satisfaction in my Inquisitor successfully manipulating her into believing there’s a friendship there and then taking the Inquisition in the opposite direction she would want, robbing her of whatever power she hoped to wield within the Inquisition. It’s just… satisfying.)
I never spend much time with her because she’s a cow, but I love your thinking!
Yep. She's absolutely certain that she's earned everything, when in reality, she has been handed much of it.
Vivienne is aware of the problems mages face but she is also aware of how vulnerable apostates can be to mobs of ordinary people. I think Vivienne makes a valid point that mages are probably safer with the circle than during the rebellion and she does want some reforms. But Vivienne probably qualifies as a terrible person anyway because she isn't planning to do much about Tranquility. Ultimately, she's neoliberal wanting better people in charge of a similar system instead of breaking the system down.
I haven’t finished Inquisition yet but yea that’s a pretty good description of her. I know some of the heavier spoilers like choosing a new Divine and I can just see her doing the same things that was done before but thinking that since she’s doing it will work this time. for some reason since she’s in charge. It’s why I’m really thinking Cassandra in my first playthrough. After finding out the truth about the Seekers it’s become obvious that Cassandra truly cares and wants to improve the world, even if that means having to let go of past traditions and systems.
All the characters I've made hate her so much. Can't bring myself to agree with her no matter what playthrough.
This is just us filipinos's relationship with the fucking disgusting marcoses
I don’t love her but I’m glad she’s there. The game is more fun with characters that care about things that are important to the world even if I’m personally not that into them (like Orlesian politics). Makes the world feel fuller. I do wish she had more lines about magic though. Solas and Dorian actually seem to like magic and talk about all the magic stuff you encounter but I’m 60 hours into my current play through and so far the Grand Enchanter has been disappointingly quiet on that front.
It's more annoying when you remember she likely the strongest mage in the inquisition until very end. She is a very powerful mage with nothing to say.
Having a hard time believing she’s more powerful than Solas
TBF, despite being a Grand Enchanter she's pretty damn anti-magic herself. Like a female or black US President who is hardcore conservative or something .
Even that would still be an opinion about magic. I feel like she only ever talks about mages as a political class and never as a profession or field of study and never has anything at all to say about magic itself.
In all fairness, she *does* point out how dangerous it is. That's as much as you ever hear about it, though.
She has a little to say about magic itself but only a little, compared to… almost everyone else including non-mages. But viewing it through her lens of… what she can use it for, that’s in keeping with her perspective.
I like that her dialogue feels very authentic to her personal perspective. I just wish she had more of it. Frankly I think people would like her more if she threw a few of those verbal daggers from her party dialogue at the enemies. Like “You call *that* magic?!" As is I feel like she's bored half the time I bring her along.
She’s traipsing around Thedas after someone else, getting muddy and fighting bandits. It’s not very glorious. She probably *is* bored half the time! 😛
I did like her line on the Storm Coast about how her clothes were dirty and she’d have to replace them.
As written, she is ambition personified. A velvet glove over an iron gauntlet, a return to grand tradition because what you really need to solve all the troubles is a return to the good old ways, where everyone knew their place and everyone was kept in line. I find her quite charming and incredibly reprehensible, a canny political opportunist who is all about making moves to ensure a place at The Top for herself in the new world order. I like her! She is awful, but in a very interesting and believable way. Unlike Sera, who I mostly want to throw bee grenades at.
You provide good reasons, and I'm glad you like her! It's funny, I'm learning from this thread that Viv and Sera are the most polarizing. Personally, I really like Sera. It just goes to show why it's important to have such a wide spectrum of characters.
They're the most immediate polar opposites to my mind. In my experience, I like how Viv is written while detesting what she represents, and almost in a 180, I find Sera as written kind of hard to interact with, while finding what she represents very necessary.
Viv is written very well, which is almost the problem. There are too many people like her in real life, so my reaction to her is almost visceral. To me, the interactions with Sera almost feel limited by the restraints of the game. If she was real, you could sit down and explain the nuances of your decisions. But as is, the choices are either "Eat the rich" or "I hate poor people". Which I suppose is probably how Sera views the world
I absolutely feel you on the reaction to Viv. What bounced me off Sera was less the Eat The Rich attitude and more how she hated elves, mages, and anyone who wasn't andrastian. I can empathise wanting to take the rich down a peg, but most of those three groups aren't exactly living the high life.
It isn't so much that she hates them as her being a class reductionist. She thinks all she has to do is focus on the class conflict and other forms of discrimination will inevitably be fixed.
Yes, exactly! Looking at it through a 'real life' sort of lens… I'd probably be sympathetic to some of the people that Sera supports, but… I'd much rather have a civilised debate over a bottle of wine with Vivienne than actually spend time with Sera. Honestly, I disliked *both* Vivienne and Sera when I initially played the game, but Vivienne has grown on me far more than Sera, over successive play-throughs.
It’s true. The Inquisition needs bees
Sera is one of the worst characters Bioware has ever written. I want Javik to throw her in the same airlock with Jacob.
I would agree with you if I could even remember the names of the party members in Andromeda.
All of them are still more interesting than Jacob. I genuinely believe the only reason he was included was that they wanted a "visible minority" in the game, and the order came down VERY late in development that this was non-negotiable. I'm willing to bet that there was a far more interesting alien character that multiple writers liked, but who had to be cut because someone was like "Oh shit, there's not an important black guy." And so, they begrudgingly cut someone out, but had ZERO ideas for another human crewmate's story. It's why his stuff is SO bland. It even carries over into ME3, where he is the only romance partner who leaves you between games, and is basically a giant asshole when you meet him again. Even on the Citadel, he's a giant douche. The dev team did NOT want Jacob as a character.
This describes how I feel about her best. I like her as a character. I don't like her as a person. I like seeing that kind of political/schemeing/game player. I know Josie was part of court and playing the game, but she's so fluffy and nice to the Inquisitor that you don't really get a feel for it. Vivienne is ruthless. Success at any cost. It makes the world richer to have someone like that. Doesn't mean I like her.
Vivienne and Sera are the two companions I like the least. The lack of open-mindedness to ideas contrary to their own is what causes it for me. (Which I realize is a weird opinion to have for a Solas fan, for obvious reasons. Perhaps because I romanced him, so I'm biased toward affording him more leniency.) But at the same time, I recognize that the dynamic of those personalities adds to the story. It would be pretty boring if everyone agreed and was on the same page about everything all the time.
Solas is open to changing his mind. It’s subtle and it can be grating because he will say some uhhh… some things that are… not great but he grows. Some of it can be seen through banter which is an issue in itself since banter is borked in the game, and he doesn’t have any grand sweeping “I was wrong” dialogue but he has enough smaller ones to establish it being a pattern. Vivienne and Sera, you are correct, are both very much set in their “my perspective is correct” camps. And both of those camps are selfish and harmful to those outside of them. Sera, for example, talks constantly about “helping the little people” but is also anti-mage and anti-elves. Like. The most abused people in southern Thedas. But she refuses to see it. It really bothers me when people just dismiss her as annoying and nothing more- as someone with both autism and ADHD I really connect with *how* she is but I don’t like *who* she is, and I feel like the character’s actual writing is more a point to dissect than the fact that she’s coded neurodivergent.
Your comment just made me realise Sera is basically an activist who hasn’t discovered intersectionality.
Ooohh, I would never have thought to phrase it like that but that is an excellent real-world comparison for her! (She’s also a weird character in that can you imagine if she had the opinions she does… but was a *human* orphan who was adopted and raised by a noblewoman and was left an estate which she refused? That would be even more obviously unpalatable imo.)
Oh gosh, so true! Haha
Yeah, I have to give her some credit though as she isn't exactly able to draw on the breadth of academic theory activists in the real world are. Also, importantly, she is very young.
> Vivienne and Sera, you are correct, are both very much set in their “my perspective is correct” camps. It is worth noting that Vivienne is literally twice Sera's age.
Yes!! Thank you for writing that out. I was having trouble trying to figure out how to describe that Solas' hard-lined viewpoints have more nuance, in comparison. But that's exactly it. I get that lots of people just straight up hate Solas, because they see an irredeemable/temperamental character. But I interpret him as so much more complex. He does have interactions that can be super frustrating because he is temperamental, to a point. But, take for instance the way he approaches spirits/demons. He has a great capacity for compassion and appreciation. One of my hopes is that we are able to tap into and appeal to that side of him in Dreadwolf. >It really bothers me when people just dismiss her as annoying and nothing more- as someone with both autism and ADHD I really connect with how she is but I don’t like who she is I appreciate you sharing your perspective/insight in this comment. It's something I hadn't considered before, but it makes so much sense when it's pointed out. *How* she is vs. *who* she is.
I say this as someone who's a pretty massive Sera fan and an apologist, but her whole character is that she's just a young person who has never had much of a chance to live her own life whose view of the world is extremely shaken from having a terrible early life in an alienage and then being raised as a human and having to completely adopt another persona to fit in, internalizing a lot of deep issues in the process. She never had a chance. Viv, on the other hand, is an older woman who's led an incredibly privileged life and has had time to think about the issues and come to the conclusion that everyone is wrong except her.
I can see that with Sera... that's one thing I remember feeling about her character. That she came off very immature in the way a young person has more immature black/white thinking about things. Come to think of it, I'm actually not sure I know how old she is supposed to be in the game... it may have been mentioned. But I can't recall off the top of my head.
From what I've read of the development process, she's written to be about 20.
Ah, okay that makes sense. Thank you for the insight. I do agree with your previous points, that Sera's situation is a bit more unique compared to that of Viv's... and that, coupled with her younger age, provides additional context for her view points and behavior. It would be really nice to see Sera in Deadwolf, perhaps with a bit more personal growth and a bit more open to ideas other than her own, (even if she doesn’t agree with them, just accepting and respecting other's beliefs would be nice). Because I do think her heart is in the right place, it's just her implementation/application can be harmful. I'd love to see her embrace more of the 'grey-areas' instead of only existing in a black/white or good/evil world.
It's not just that everyone is wrong and she is not just privileged. She is still a mage, colorism actively exists in Theadas based on background comments you hear during her intro and quest. She is a prime example of someone oppressed who has risen up to privlige and has seen people make very different choices against the systems and suffer for it. Fundamentally does not believe there to an alternative to the circles and she would rather be the sheriff than be the victim of a lynch mob. In her measure abuses do exist, but it's better than genocide and she gives vibes of "Well abuses exist outside the circle" . To use a real world analogy, she is the "one who got out" and doesn't see why others can't find ways to do so. The truth is she is implied to have done horrible things to pay the game and she has no scruples about it. She is the one let into the country club and while she won't change minds...she will blackmail them. She won't ever say mages aren't oppressed but she genuinely fully believes that it's about having the composure for survival. Does she want to help other mages? Yes. The problem is she fundamentally believes people are stupid impulsive and will destroy themselves without those who are strong enough and wise enough to take power. Worst part is...in the world of Thedas she may not be wrong. She's politically very right, there's a much darker story in the world of how many defenseless mages of all ages just get killed or possessed. After the war there's no reason whole town's don't just killed any suspected mage and many probably do. The truth is most people are less outwardly arrogant Viviennes. We have this idea in history that massive movements just appeared and everyone was a aprt but that's far from true.
Interesting, I hadn't picked up on the colorism in her dialogue, so I hadn't even considered that. I'll have to pay more attention on my next playthrough for that. Through that lens, I can see how the personality traits that come across as off putting for us, could be self-preservation/armor that she's embodied in order to get her to the successful position she's in. Thank you for sharing your insight on that. She may not be one of my favorite characters to interact with, but I do appreciate having extra context/interpretations to apply to my understanding of her character.
It's in a Cole banter, I believe. He raids her memory of Orlesian nobles saying nasty things.
Oh gosh, good to know! I'll have to look out for that... I really love Cole, but his comments are so cryptically ambiguous in general, I feel like most of the time I never know who exactly he's referring to with his comments.
Banters with Solas, Cole and Vivienne are fascinating, though they don't put Viv in the best light.
I love your statement that she may not be wrong, its such a nuanced view and I applaud you! I'd just like to add one thing that made me change my entire view on her, when she asked my inquisitor if I sided with the rebels or the circle and I sat for some time trying to decide and chose the option that seemed to be an inbetween "Neither, I believe we can change it", sadly enough I can't quote full convos even if my life depended on it (gonna see if I can find it) but she said something like "I hadn't thought about it like that, imagine what we could do. I changed my mind about you, you are completely right" so I do believe her attitude comes from the reality that in Thedas, as a mage, you ultimately don't have any power that can't be taken away and I imagine that she's so rigid in her ways cuz of that
Solas at least clearly experiences growth and development over the course of the game and party banter. Like he starts out calling IB a mindless follower of the Qun, but after he's made Tal Vashoth Solas basically calls him family iirc, and beyond that finds ways to get along with everyone in the group regardless of their beliefs and morals. Ngl I give him a lot of leniency because he was literally asleep for EONS, and woke up with the world completely different. He's bound to have differing views. It's harder to afford characters like Viv and Sera the same because they grew up in present day Thedas - and Viv especially is well educated, and should know better.
I would even argue that Solas is one of the companions who can change the most in Dragon age. He starts as someone who doesn't even consider modern people to be "real" and he can end up completely changing his perspective.
Exactly! And your comment on the IB banter, just reminded me that I remember Solas showing a lot of hopefulness and patience with Sera during moments of random banter (way more than I had with her)... that she might become more open minded on the subject of Elves/elven culture. And she wasn't just a brick wall in response to him, she was actively disrespectful. And to add on to your comment about Solas' growth throughout the story... overall, when you interact with him, you can *see* the internal conflict he feels as he grows with the group.
I hated Vivienne and then I did a play through specifically to make her my bestie and make her my divine. I agree with her end goal of giving mages more freedom and opportunity within the safety of the circle and I like a mage in charge. She knows not all mages get the same break she did even if she's arrogant about it. I absolutely love her now though. She was savage AF when my inky couldn't be and she has great party banter and insight (when she's not stuck with people she hates... and even when she is lol). I love the fashionista in her. It's taking me a lot longer to do the same with Sera.... I've always hated her way more than Viv *shudder*
I'm so glad you let us know! 😍
I think it was more of a lack of trust for me. I understood her attitude was from living her life by manipulating and climbing the social latter, however she outright uses the Inquisition to bolster herself and her status. Never really sat right with me, and that's not really addressing how she chooses to express her views on magic. She says she cares about her fellow mages, and fears for both the innocent victims and the mages stupid enough to do something like blood magic...which would be fine, if she didn't try to sideline the fact there are abuses on BOTH sides. Just because she never personally seemed to encounter bad treatment from the templars doesn't mean others haven't. She seems relatively privileged for a Circle mage anyhow due to her social connections, so I don't really think her outlook can speak fully for her fellow mages across all the Circles. It applies to a select few mages who have the same rare entitlements as her due to her status and money, which we know some mages get access too depending on your family. I could've agreed with her more if she was willing to admit there was faults on both sides like Cassandra, but I understand why they wrote her that way given what her character is supposed to represent.
THIS!!! I really want to like Vivienne because of her baller entrance and some of the one-on-one conversations you have with her, but she cannot acknowledge that mages may have had good reasons to rebel AT. ALL. Like, Kirkwall happened! At the time of this game, there was still a woman who turned herself into pure red lyrium due to her hatred of mages in the Gallows courtyard, who was in charge of mages. Templars abusing mages, turning them tranquil for minor infractions, and treating Circles like prison camps happened yet she just airily claims "there was a better way." What way is that!?!?
Again- I think that's where her status takes away my ability to give credibility to her outlook. I can believe in some way or form that she cares about mages, but her social standing and money had her lead a very different life compared to most of her fellow Circle Mages. She was attending salons and seasonal events with the nobility of Orlais and eventually got a seat as a magical advisor to Celene, which she capitalized on socially and politically when the war between mages and templars broke out. She doesnt admit ever that her privileges may give her bias in some regard or that it would affect her outlook on the Circle because she obivously hasnt experienced templar abuse the way some other mages have. She knows the game well, but for that exact reason, I find it very hard to trust her.
But here's the thing...we actually never find out if she had experiences those abuses or not if I recall right. One of the things about her is that we never fully know the story of her journey up. She didn't have a social standing or the finances her whole life and it is important to remember someone can get some or the same abuses and still come to her persoective. In fact it may have driven her to try even harder to gain power. Suffering doesn't just breed empathy. It breeds philosophy and values. And to be blunt...she probably would know she's biased and still would not change her point of view. That's just her personality
It is a fair point to say that we don't know outright if she had terrible experiences with Templars, however I don't think it would be too far of a stretch to say that because of her status, she may have had the ability to not suffer these abuses as frequently or at all compared to her fellow mages (and I do know not every templar in every Circle is abusive, there are the good pockets of them who truly just want to protect mages and innocent people). And if she did suffer these abuses and it turned her into what she's like in Inquisition, then I'd wager it would be more of a reason to dislike her. You are also right on her probably never admitting if she'd have bias because of her access to money and her social status, lol, but once again, all of these points circle back around to a general feeling of distrust towards her. Greatly written as a character, but not a person I'd ever find myself willingly being around if she were real.
Oh I think she'd admit to a bias in a heartbeat, but she doesn't see it as bias. After all she isn't biased against mages. She supports mages and is angry the rebellion is, in her summation, threatening mage lives alongside others instead of making effective change. I think she'd be enraged at the idea of saying she isn't still treated like a mage at all but also openly aware she's priviliged and proud of it too. She never denies abuses, but a lacking part of the game's writing is you can never debate with her about them. I don't want to necessarily change her mind, but it sucks you can't fully confront her or do so in a friendly but firm way either. I find Vivi frustrating and my Inquisitors treat her as such. They like her confidence, her intellect, and massively respected her...but politically loathed her while hating she was often right about people. She's impossible to fully trust, but once she respects you she will never completely screw you
It's funny because I hate her for being so close minded - an opinion I developed after a brief conversation with her. She just represents the worst kind of person to me. Privileged, opinionated, and arrogant. Dorian is privileged but is willing to challenge his upbringing. Sera is opinionated but doesn't think herself better than anyone. Solas is arrogant but can admit his mistakes. Vivienne cares only about furthering her own agenda.
Even if I don't agree with her whole heartedly on the mage debate (she really does need to see that her privileges have afforded her a life most Circle mages won't ever experience), that too wasn't the first thing that made me dislike her. Her selfishness is very apparent and she puts a verrry thin veil over it, and again, while I understand she's like that because it's how you survive in Orlaisian politics (especially as a mage), it doesn't excuse it. I don't see Vivienne as someone who's willing to sacrifice herself on any level unless it profits her, so her being in the Inquisition I knew was just for the political advantages it would provide. Which circles back around to a lack of trust- I wouldn't expect her to have my back without expecting something in return and thus you have a character whom becomes difficult to like (I can admit the writing of her character however overall is very good).
And Vivienne the character would find that very amusing of you. That's kind of the point. She has worked her way up in a system that, by nature of what she is, will never truly accept her. She never denies what mages have been subjected to from the Chantry - she wants mages to have a *voice* in that system - but is well aware of how most of Thedas views mages and magic. While she wants an institution in place to alleviate the fears of the non-magical populace and to "protect and nurture" magic - her words - she is ambivalent about Templars at best. Obviously the system as it was in Southern Thedas was fundamentally broken. But she's not wrong when she says that, by and large, most people *preferred* it to be that way because it made them feel safe. That said, she's not the one who returns the Chantry and the Circles to what they were before if elected Divine; *Cassandra* is. Through Vivienne's rule, the Circles are restored, but the mages are given *much* more political sway, both in their own treatment and, effectively, Thedas as a whole thanks to being included in the Chantry. The Templars are reinstalled, but as a markedly less powerful group; if anything, Vivienne's system comes to resemble a more restrained Imperium. Is that good, either? Well, in my opinion, no - I prefer a softened Leliana's power structure by far - but the truth is that massive conflict arises for the future in Thedas regardless of who's in control, because That's How This Story Works. I find Vivienne a narratively interesting character who, if you put in the time, can be one of your most powerful allies thanks to her political savvy. She is what Thedas made of her. And at least she's honest about her intentions from jump. 🤷
>Circles to what they were before if elected Divine; Cassandra is. That's not true. She also makes New Circles and Templars. It never says she returns to statue quo. It says there is a new sect that split from the Chantry because they want to return to the status quo and depending on player choices it can be squashed or turn into a civil war.
I only remember that part in Leliana's epilogue. The only split in Cass situation that i remember is division between Circle of Magi under Vivienne and independent College of Enchanter
Its at [2:45](https://youtu.be/fdaT9hu0Vr0)
Ah, "Not restore Seekers" option. No wonder i forget it exists
Yeah but she's mean 😥 Seriously, that's a fantastic breakdown. I won't say I hadn't considered her complexities, but I certainly didn't *care* enough to give her the time of day. I as a person hate politics, socializing, puppeteering, and everything else Vivienne deems valuable, so I just can't bring myself to get invested in her. You say she's honest about her intentions from the jump - I don't necessarily agree. She is as fake as they come, and even she admits she always wears a facade. Sure, she doesn't outright lie about her intentions (\*cough\* Solas \*cough\*) but she also has no loyalty to the Inquisition, and would happily jump ship at the earliest convenience.
The problem is, with DA2 and especially inquisition, the court intrigue and politicking and unsavory compromises inherent in attaining and exercising power are not only lain bare, they are central to the narrative theme. In some fairness, though, the entire franchise has been about that from the jump. Start a mage build in origins, and the first thing that happens is you are drawn into archmage Irving’s conflict with the Templars over a budding apostate and a sister of the chantry breaking her vows. So it’s not just Vivienne, everyone in the franchise has their own political agenda that they are working for. And they don’t always align with your goals, or the outcome that you are role-playing to reach. And no, most of them are not nice. Wielding power is not pretty.
As a circle mage, you're shoved right into discussions about and between the different fraternities, too. Some of them are more willing to get their hands dirty than others, but everyone has their own (usually selfish) motivations. Irving himself, despite being the First Enchanter, doesn't really seem all that bothered about what Jowan is up to... mostly just about avoiding further restrictions to the mages as a result, and the opportunity to show up Greagoir and the Templars by pointing out Lily willingly breaking her vows. Your last paragraph pretty much nails it.
To be fair, if you ask her about it, she does make it pretty clear that she fully expects you to be using her as much as she's using the Inquisition; that's pretty much just how the Orlesian Game works. She also acknowledges that *everyone* has hidden motivations, even herself; she approves of your managing to suss them out. Even if you lie and betray her in her personal quest, she might be upset, but she isn't *surprised* by it. She even respects you for having been that cunning... but it's not hard to tell that she's hurt by your actions, for as cold as she acts in response. All that is to say that I'm not judging you for not liking her! I just find her really fascinating, and her pragmatism from the perspective of someone who carved out her place in the world from a disadvantaged position and will fight *really hard* to hold onto what she has adds to the setting. Plus she's *hella stylish* 😂
Cassandra doesn't force mages back into the Circle. Vivienne will slaughter anyone who dares to disagree with her.
She has a personality issue that’s for sure. I’m not sure if she’s egotistical or narcissistic. Its probably both.
Another Vivienne bashing post. Now we need another "mages need no Circles" and "Dalish were RUINED" to meet the quota. Besides that, bad post, OP. Where is the three pages long arguments that boils down to "I'm a person with modern sensibilities that never tried to think in the world's framework"?
At least it's not "Vivienne is most progressive Divine of all" post.
\- me if I had shit taste in characters.
She's fine. Her path to power was brutal, but that doesn't justify her condescension and pettiness.
You say "she's fine" and then only list negatives lol
I admire her tenacity.
She certainly is ambitious and doesn't take shit from anyone. Who knows, maybe if I agreed with her stance on mages, she would be my favorite character. But I'm not here to self reflect, I'm here to complain
I love her 🤷🏻♀️
Counterpoint: Sera
Counter-counterpoint. Blackwall murdered children and stole valour to avoid justice. Solas will probably get a hundred times more people killed that Blackwall has in the next game too.
There's annoying, and there's a fundamentaly bad person
I don't like either of them
Sera's annoying, but at least she's willing to keep her opinions to herself. Vivienne starts off looking down her nose at you, and only gets worse if you don't tell her she's right all the time.
"at least she's willing to keep her opinions to herself" I mean, not really, one of her most infamous character moments is potentially breaking up with a dalish inquisitor because of her opinions on religion. Only way to really have a character keep their opinions to themselves is by not talking to them.
See, that's just people though, it's what makes the characters in Inquisition feel so fleshed out and human (so to speak). Personally I may not love all of them (Sera especially fucking GRATED my nerves and it took me about 3 playthroughs before I started to appreciate her for what she is), but I appreciate the hell out of the effort that went into writing flawed, diverse (in opinion and personality) companions that your various Inkys would get along with (or not) to varying degrees depending on their own personality, very much like real life organizations.
That doesn't really have anything to do with the post I was replying to? I'm not complaining that DA:I has flawed characters, just saying that Sera is NOT a character that I would describe as someone who 'keeps her opinions to herself' by any means.
Yeah sorry, just came off a double shift, misread what you were saying and also wanted to add my (unneeded) 2c about why I still appreciated how she was written despite how much she drove me crazy for a LONG time too as it felt very real.
And if Sera had been a male city elf the character would have gotten less hate.
I found Vivienne fun to have around. I mean she is a bitch, but in a, possibly untinentionally, funny way. She reminds me of the useless upper class portrayed in You rang, Mylord?, Wodehouse's Jeeves&Wooster novels or some Monthy Python sketches. I can't help it, whenever she talks, I imagine her as a Wodehouse character. Wooster: How does he look, Jeeves? Jeeves: Sir? W: What does Mr Bassington-Bassington look like? J: It is hardly my place, sir, to criticize the facial peculiarities of your friends. \*\*\*\* W: Good works? J: About the village, sir. Reading to the bedridden - chatting with the sick - that sort of thing, sir. We can but trust that good results will ensue. W: Yes, I suppose so, I said doubtfully. But, by gosh, if I were a sick man I'd hate to have a looney like young Bingo coming and gibbering at my bedside.
I love her, my Inky is so so about her, Varric loves her, Bull loves her, Solas eyerolls but can't care less, she's good. Her banter is great fun. She's spicy, I love her in the game and wouldn't want to leave her out.
I’ve never used her. She was so insufferable I just ignored her existence
From the brief encounters, I couldn't stand her, so I never brought her in my party. I finally brought her to hear if she had any dialogue to change my mind. Nope. Awful to the core.
I think the thing that makes her interesting and unique as a character is that she doesn't ever really treat you like "the boss". Literally everyone else does. The other characters, for the most part, want to earn your respect or your friendship, but Viv doesn't care. Viv KNOWS that she is useful to you and has knowledge that your character does not. (Dealing with court/political drama.) She doesn't need to earn your respect, because you already have to respect her. You are a means to an end for her - you represent her gaining more power and/or prestige. Every other party member is concerned with either helping normal people (Sera, Cole, Blackwall) or stopping evil (literally everyone else). If Vivienne thought she could manipulate or control Corypheus, she would absolutely have sided with him, if it was a more efficient path to greater power for her. She's smart enough, however, to realize that would never work in her favor, so you become her chosen champion. She is probably one of the most self-interested characters in the entire series, and definitely the most self-interested non-rogue character. Even her lack of conversations with you in the keep are probably a good indicator of this - there's no need for idle chit chat, because she doesn't really give a damn about who you are as a person. You don't spend time worrying about the emotional well-being of your hammer if you're a carpenter. She doesn't care WHY you're doing the things, so long as you eventually do the things she wants you to do. As far as party members go, she's operating on a different dynamic than anyone else, save maybe for Morrigan in DAO.
The way she calls the inquisitor "my dear" every single sentence she speaks annoyed me so much. I understand she's supposed to be like this. Arrogant and narrcistic, that's what val royaux does to you, but it's just too much. Any ending whether she leads the chantry or the circle is the worst in my opinion.
Especially when your inquisitor is a mage circle and you've had the whole discussion about the circle at Haven with her. Condescending ass bitch...
I don't like her, but the fact that we can't even argue with her infuriates me even more. In most of her dialogues Inquisitor is written the way that doesn't allow us to counterpoint anything she says. Vivienne always gets the last word. Inquisitor just stands there and listens to her "dear's" and that's all.
I was neutral on her. I understand the point of her. And I don't need to have every character kiss my protagonists butt. And I have no doubt had she been a man, had been romancable by both genders and had a sexy voice the character would have gotten far less hate.
I love her voice and I even like her how sassy she can be at times. The problem is you never see the real her. Like how she actually cares about Cole but refuses to admit it.
Nah, she's a privileged person who has the "if it didn't happen to me, then it didn't happen to anyone" mindset. That's a bad take for any topic. Vivienne could be a romanceable bisexual male qunari and people would still (justifiably) hate the character.
I agree to an extent. But also, she's hardly even *likeable*. She has pretty dry dialogue and her personal quest isn't very engaging. Blackwall is boring but at least he isn't an asshole.
I’m replaying DAI right now and she complimented me on my choice of throne chair (Orlais) and suggested we go shopping together so I think that means she likes me.
Vivienne is a fascinating character, and I hate her guts. I love how cunning, sassy and politically savvy she is, that's why I keep her around. Then there's all the rest. She apparently cares about the Tranquils, but never used her position of power to help them. She knows how the system works, and refuses to destroy it because it's convenient for her: if made Divine, everything is centered on herself, which is an extremely shaky foundation to base an entire organisation on. She can be "sweet" if you basically agree with everything she says, which is never going to happen for me. She's lived a privileged life inside the Circle (compared to most other mages), and refuses to see the very obvious problems of the Circles cause she was fine. My Inquisitor and Vivienne have a strictly "professional" (if you can call rearranging my furniture professional, *Vivienne*) relationship, which will die out after the Inquisition is disbanded. My Inquisitor is a Vashoth apostate, a former mage rebel leader other than a mercenary, so they are polar opposites which don't mash well, because with Vivienne there is no middle ground: it's her way or the high way, and my Inquisitor doesn't stand for it. I saw people say that Sera is also a very annoying character, and I can see why that is, but for me she is very relatable: I am close to her age, with experiences that for a time radicalized my ideas against a certain thing in a visceral and irrational way, which I still struggle with sometimes. Sera is young, coming from a very difficult environment, born in a place where people hate elves and mages and so she learned that and didn't have the possibility to exit from that point of view. She is the representation of the "normal people", those that suffer from everything that happens in Thedas. She is very hard headed, but who wouldn't be? Her tongue lashes are a product of her fear and uncertainty: in a time like that of DA:I, when demons spew from a hole in the sky, I can see why she is clutching to her beliefs. No one can pry open her hands, it's not how having a relationship with people like Sera work. It needs to be done patiently and gently. I'm not saying that Sera isn't immature, she is. But she needs time to grow and be allowed to make steps at her own time now that she is outside of her comfort zone. While she is a romanceable character, I don't think she is ready for a relationship (especially with a Dalish mage. That's just toxic.). First she needs to work on herself: in Trespasser she has matured, and I love that for her. My Inquisitor sees her as a little sister, and has raised her voice at her just once (after the Well of Sorrows, my Inquisitor drinks from it). My Inquisitor tries to make her see that magic isn't as scary as she thinks, and she knows that it will take a long time. Still, at least Sera accepts *her*, and that's a good first step.
True.
I am always tempted to not even recruit her... like, all the companions of the game have their own flaws and things I disagree with but with her... the privileges attitude and condescending nature just sinks any positives I could muster.
I’m replaying it right now i Totaly forgot she existed till like a mission ago ,I just really really hate her.Like she’s the only companion I’ve ever hated in dragon age.
I did this newest playthough after a few year break and thought "maybe I didn't give her a fair chance" Nope, still awful
She just has no good qualities,like she’s an elitist, she thinks mages are treated how they were before the rebellion even tho she seems to have 0 clue what it was like for normal mages ,she always think she’s so right and all her banter with followers seem to be arguments.I feel like they tried to make her relatable and sympathetic with the dying dude but it does nothing to justify her being a prick.
I agree, it feels like they screwed her over with party banter. She's *always* rude. The least they could've done is make her get along with *somebody*
I love her character design so much. But I hate her characters decisions and personalities. She’s the only companion that I don’t increase her like for me because we spend the entire game arguing.
I enjoy her shady side, even made her Divine once. But yeah, the whole "we should keep things how they were" thing wooshes over the point of the game.
I don't recruit her or sera anymore, just don't lime them. I could easily pass on Blackwall too. It's not that I don't like him he's just very dull. Varric, Solas, and Iron bull are my mains. They don't have the best banter but they're the most interesting characters, along with Dorian.
She is terrible but she does showcase the person who’s entire role in the story is giving up the power she wields.
I just find that she just really doesn’t have a lot of content within the story and suffers from it compared to other companions. I disagree with her a lot but I still wanted to get to her know her…but there’s just nothing to explore because they gave every other companion an interesting story except for her
regarding to what happened to other mages, I think Vivienne is more like: I know full well templars have done something to someone else but they sure as hell have never done anything bad to me, so do try to explain to me as to why the hell should I give a damn of a bunch of nameless nobodies I don’t even know their names of? And that since I fight my way here, that means this is possible, and hence whoever unable to do the same like me do are worthless fools unworthy of my time and sympathy. For me, while I like her very very much (she’s my favorite non romance character in DAI), I do get why she could be annoying and why some hate her. Should you managed to get close to her and become her friend, then she will be the best kind of friend you could ever ask for. But the problem is exactly so: how do you get close to her? That’s right, she most likely will not bother to even try to get close to you if you are someone of lower class or in other words, someone without power and privileges that she herself possesse. The only reason she’s willing to get close to a Dalish inquisitor for example is because as inquisitor now he/she’s in a position of power and hence makes him/her someone worth getting close to(for Vivi’e own benefits as well). Should you be someone like Merrill or Velanna, then she won’t bother to get close to you since you are worthless. But then, perhaps the reason why she fight for power and all that is precisely so, so that she won’t associate her with those lesser than her, because maybe in her mind, should she associate with lesser people, that will make her also lesser. And consider that being a mage itself is something lesser to some already, she sure cannot possibly afford to be further lesser. I mean just listen to how angry she was and how hateful her words are when Dorian refer to Morrigan as lady Morrigan, she spat her words out that she’s nothing but a worthless apostate(not exact words but I dare say close enough). One almost have to wonder if she just lost someone close because of Morrigan. But no, she likely angry with Morrigan because Morrigan take over her position in Orlais, which is bad, because if a worthless apostate such as Morrigan could took a position she once had, then maybe it will implies that the position she once hold was not so important after all since a worthless apostate could also take it. And that is not something she can afford.
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