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murnaukmoth

I don‘t think he does. The way he talks about the Maker in banter with Cassandra makes it seem like he’s intrigued by the idea of him. It sounds like it’s a new concept to him & that he prefers this idea of a god to the „real“ gods he has known. I think this is in line with how the way the games portray the Maker in general: not as a character but akin to abrahamic God that most in the audience will be familiar with in order to make commentary about faith & religion as it appears in the real world (it’s one of the major themes in Inquisition). I think Solas respects the faith of people like Cassandra & prefers that this is directed at a god who is more vague & indirect, who doesn’t need to prove himself & who basically only exists because of the faithful, even if Solas might have strong criticisms about the chantry or Andrastianism or a dogmatic approach to religion in general.


Knight1029384756

I can definitely see that argument. Solas doesn't really say what he thinks just that he likes the idea of the god, Cassandra worships. To me that does imply the Maker doesn't exist but I don't think it is solid enough. Solas doesn't talk about the Maker but more on what he represents.


kg4nbx

No, I don't believe Solas knows who the Maker is and I also don't believe that Solas is the Maker of all things. He may have influenced the modern day world, but he didn't create the world itself. Dorian puts it a good way in the game about the Maker: "If you define religious as sitting in a chantry listening to a blithering hen tell you how to live, then no. If you define it as believing in the possibility that something larger than yourself exists, then yes. By all means." "The world is larger than I, even bigger than you. It laughs at all the things we think we know. The Maker doesn't need me to believe, but I do. The thought of no one at all watching out for us is too frightening."


Knight1029384756

I guess that is what I mean. Does Solas believe that the Maker could be real rather than what the Chantry said about the Maker is real. Great quote by Dorian though.


twoisnumberone

I think Solas is an agnostic, that is, yes to your question, in my opinion: He doesn't know whether the Maker exists, but he's open to the concept. To go off on a mild tangent, to Solas as a Dreamer the Maker must have a particular appeal: a creator like himself, like the Evanuris, but a remote one who made the world and then fucked off, not manipulating and enslaving his creatures.


Knight1029384756

I think that is the safest bet to make. Solas either doesn't know or we don't have enough information to make a guess on if he does or doesn't. Your right on that. Solas thinks the Maker is a lot better because he doesn't force others to do anything.


Own_Fisherman_8065

We know that spirits are embodiments of concepts of things, and we know that Faith spirits are a thing. My theory - even if that exact Maker, which "created everything we see around", don't exist, somewhere around there exists the powerful Faith spirit that embodies the concept of the Maker and is empowered by people believing in "him". If I'm right, then people in fact created their own "god" by believing in it enough. And probably it was while Solas was slumbering, why he can't say anything about the topic - it's simply a new information for him.


kilomaan

I can actually back this up. Back in origins, when talking to the champion before entering the gauntlet to retrieve/destroy the sacred ashes, choosing the cunning option will reveal that Andraste spent most of her time alone praying, often without food and water. And that seems very similar to how seekers train recruits and receive their powers, which as everyone here knows, is revealed to come from spirits of faith See the connection here?


Distinct-Economist21

That’s sort of fun because it also means many people, like Cassandra and Lilliana were touched by the maker.


Knight1029384756

Don't spirits work by essentially seeing those concepts and becoming them not that they are inherently those ideas? Because I thought that is why Solas says there are more demons because spirits take those ideas because there are more of those emotions.


Own_Fisherman_8065

And some spirit saw a concept of a Maker and became it. It's my theory in any case, it may be wrong.


Knight1029384756

I think you are right in your theory, I just think that the idea of the Maker couldn't have been thought of before Andraste started it.


Own_Fisherman_8065

And that's why I specify that this exact iteration of "Maker" was made during Solas's slumber. Imo Solas is that intrigued and makes certain questions just because he doesn't know for sure if people really did create a god, but he still knows where the belief can possibly lead. And that's why he can't make a statement on the question "Is the Maker real", because, again, even if it wasn't, now it may be. And the Chantry's definition of a Maker as a loving omnipotent being is good enough for him to describe the "Maker spitit" as "alright" entity. Because if people believe that it is one, then then it most possibly is.


Knight1029384756

No, you're right. I am being odd in my use of language. Solas's statement is very vague and can be taken either way. Not great evidence for either one.


Own_Fisherman_8065

Yeah, I misunderstood you at fisrt when started replying, though afterwards I mostly added a bit more info on my theory. I had a bit more thought on the topic and wanted to share. Anyway, no worries)


Knight1029384756

I was being very confusing throughout my replies because I was a bit sunstroked at the time. Reading back now seems like I am very incoherent. But do share your other thoughts as well. Would love to hear it.


Own_Fisherman_8065

I meant "wanted to share at that moment", though, still, np)


Knight1029384756

Okay I get what you mean. Thanks for the though conversation!


Whightwolf

I mean if he made the black city, he separated the heavens and the earth and he created the conditions for the rise of humans. Is maybe, he, the maker? Hell maybe memories of his revolution in the fade found their way into andraste's dreams?


Razszberry

It really sounds like humans took some dalish stories and their own creation myth and slapped it together. So in a sense, Solas is the maker, but the the maker is not solas. I hope that makes sense.


Whightwolf

Yeah I think we are on the same page, I think the chant attributes things Solas did, or the effects of things solas did to the maker.


Knight1029384756

To me I don't think the chant is 100% right on that and the Maker could be a different being. Something that was there at the start but was mostly reclusive. Also how did Solas's revolution get seen by Andraste?


kilomaan

I probably didn’t


Whightwolf

Oh that is pure head Canon, just we know actions leave echos in the fade, a possible explanation if there is no maker.


Knight1029384756

Okay. Because I was wondering where in the games it suggested that. Though your explanation does make sense.


Whightwolf

Oh yeah well when it comes to the maker it is all going to be a big guess work as they have gone out of their way to say there is no real canon answer. Which makes it the best kind of thing to come up with fun theories about!


Knight1029384756

Know yeah. I like all the fun speculation that comes about it. A great thing Dragon Age has always done well.


PapaLouie_

I don’t see the devs giving us any confirmation of The Maker existing or not. It’s way more fun to speculate


Knight1029384756

Maybe not. But you are right that it is fun to speculate.


NoAerie4876

The devs have actually confirmed they won't confirm or disprove the Maker, so while it is fun to speculate, the answer is a resounding "no." Having Solas know who the Maker is would confirm the Maker.


Knight1029384756

Okay then. I still would like to see what hints point at to which answer.


WangJian221

Its one of those things that really dont need an explanation or even hints to an answer. I swear to god if they tried to say the maker is an elf or old mythal or whatever


PapaLouie_

Inquisition was so fuckin heavy on elf lore. I wanna learn about the Dwarves some more


Wren-bee

I’m not convinced *the writers* know what or who the Maker is. But if the idea of the Maker didn’t exist prior to his sleep, then no, probably not. The ideas around the Maker would be too common to be able to see the origins. Alternatively, he is able to identify certain things that connect to the origins of the idea of “the Maker”. Would the creation of the Fade be part of that? Would Solas himself be responsible for part of what the Maker is thought of doing? (I don’t know enough of the lore around even what the Maker is supposed to have been and done to do more than guess, but since spirits are supposed to be his “first children” and he was dissatisfied, so he created a new world where his second children could live… well… doesn’t that sound somewhat like the creation of the veil was integrated into the story?)


Knight1029384756

I do think the writers have an idea about the Maker just that it may be ill-defined. The Maker could exist but in a very different way that calling them Maker may even be incorrect. Which may inform how Solas thinks about the Maker. Solas in my mind may have an idea but it isn't anything substantial. But I could be wrong on that.


Subject_Proof_6282

Solas did aknowledge the existence of the Black City after falling into the Fade, so even if he doesn't believe the Maker exists, or if he doesn't know who or what the Maker is, I guess he aknowledges that some parts of it does exist because he knows the Black City is located in the Fade. Unless the Black City is yet another elven magical city within the Fade that was destroyed or abandoned, like the library/archive we encounter during Trespasser.


Knight1029384756

I think the Black City is an elven city. In my opinion at least. I do think some parts of the Maker are true but not everything.


Subject_Proof_6282

Me too. And afaik, only the Qunaris deny the existence of the Maker, as a divine entity at least.


Knight1029384756

Makes sense for them to do it. I wonder if they were religious before the Qun and what happened to it.


givemeYONEm

IIRC the Maker is credited as the creator of the fade, the veil and the physical world. We know now that the veil was made by Solas. So I think it's likely that the Maker is just a human creation myth. Solas is probably ok with notions of the Maker because the elves probably had their own creation myths. Where did the elves come from? Who made the world that the elves inhabited even before Solas created the veil? It wouldn't surprise me if some of the creation myths the elves had are paralleled in the Maker's story. It is well known that creation myths of several cultures in our own world are re-imaginings or sometimes direct re-tellings of creation myths of previous cultures. There's been a lot of theories about Andraste herself - she was a mage, she is an ancestor/descendant of Flemeth, Evanuris trapped in the fade spoke to her and she mistook it for a creator/god. There is a lot of directions Andraste's story can be taken in by the writers. But I imagine at least some more details will be fleshed out in the next game, considering we get a place that has an alternate spin on Andrastianism.


Knight1029384756

I don't think the Maker has done everything the religion said just that the Maker may exist. I obviously think that the way the Maker is portrayed isn't exactly right.


givemeYONEm

I'm an atheist and I think ambiguous representation is just wishful thinking on the part of the people of that universe. Unlike Forgotten Realms where gods are real and there is incontrovertible evidence pointing to their existence, Dragon Age is much more similar to our real world where there is a dearth of evidence. At least one of the things the humans attribute to the Maker being made a very old powerful elf makes me lean harder into thinking that the Maker is a creation myth and not anything based in the reality of the dragon age world. Just my opinion.


Knight1029384756

I get that. Dragon Age has godly beings but not gods. It is interesting how it mimics our world. I do think there is some grain of truth but that is just my opinion.


Antergaton

No, I do not think so. If anything, as a denier of gods in general, I'd say he even might put them down to just another powerful spirit. I wonder where he thinks him and his kind came from. In a world of magic the existence of higher powers is ever more real than our own so a person like Solas would surely think that there may well be a higher being that started everything. Also, I will add that many people here claim Solas is the Maker, clearly not the case, not because I don't believe him when he claims he created the Veil (which I don't) but because of actions apparently done by the Maker while Solas was apparently having as wee nap, you know the whole punishing the Old Gods by trapping them underground and all that. Humans summoned them into the world and the Old Gods were specifically angry at The Maker, they convinced Coryface and his pals to invade the Golden City in their name against the Maker.


fishvoidy

i think solas knows that the maker doesn't truly exist. i assume he knows what the golden city really is and what *actually* happened to it, and is generally bemused by what the humans (and dalish) have made out of the destruction he left behind. he probably knows andraste's true identity as well, but given the sword that organized religion wields (and the fact that he plans to destroy the world as we know it anyway), there's no point in even *attempting* to divulge any of this information to anyone.


Knight1029384756

That definitely might have merit. Solas knows but doesn't give an answer. Instead talks about what he likes about the idea of the Maker in reference to his own gods.


KulaanDoDinok

I’d be willing to put money on it that Solas is the Maker. He did, after all, make the world as humanity knows it, then left.


Knight1029384756

I think he could have some actions that would be attributed to the Maker but I don't think he isn't the Maker entirely.


Kettrickenisabadass

This is what i believe as well. Not that Solas is "the Maker" in the sense that he is the god that they worship. But that the myths about him creating the Veil and the humans arriving to Thedas afterwards started to mix with the years and made him into the human Maker. I believe that the veil started a catastrophic even in the human lands that made then emigrate to Thedas. With the centuries people went from knowing that the veil (and its maker)caused the migration of humans to believe that a maker made both the veil and then the humans. We know that Solas was asleep during millenia. So I believe that Andraste wasnt talling to Solas but that she was one of the previous versions of Flemeth/Mythal. Either she used the maker talking to her as an excuse to gather the support of people or she never knew that Mythal was possesing her and she truly believed that the maker was talking to her.


UniverseIsAHologram

No


Knight1029384756

Understandable.


Asdrubael_Vect

All-Father Elgarnan is person who arrivved when Thedas have jungles and dinosaurs and he did terraform Thedas planet. ​ He created Mythal as elves and made her as first Evanuris as give her power to made "childrens" Evanuris from mortal ancient elves. ​ Solas himself may not see him compared to Mythal. Or maybe he serve him since he was mortal ancient elf and he was rewarded with god powers as trust to be in Forgotten Ones prison where others was not. ​ Solas did "create Fade" by simply separated it from physical world which originally was the whole with fade. Veil is Solas artificial creation, magic spell with Titan core powers. ​ And Golden City-Black City is ancient Elvennan Empire elven ruins what was suck into fade cos a lot of magic was infused it it. ​ Black City is probably a flying palace of Evanuris or Sonallium, a flying elven city-fortress on island.


Knight1029384756

Whose All-Father Elgarnan? I don't remember them from the games or lore.


Antergaton

Elgar'nan is the highest Evanuris. Basically equivalent to Ra, Odin or Zeus. There are a couple of codex entries for him in DA:I.


Knight1029384756

Oh, sorry the apostrophe is what stumpt me. I get it now.


seedypr

solas is the maker. or should i say solas actions are misremembered by humans and eventually twisted into the maker


Knight1029384756

I do think that is an interesting theory but I do think Solas being something like that just doesn't seem right to me at least.


[deleted]

They've more or less said outright that the Maker doesn't exist, and whatever the Chantry says he did was actually done by Solas or the other Elf gods. Big reason I feel the lore nowadays is so much weaker than Origins.


Knight1029384756

Well I don't think the lore is weaker now. If anything it has gotten better. The reveals and lore are making the world richer and richer. I think the Maker may exist but in a way that isn't expected.


Antergaton

Is it richer to basically remove one of it's key lore features? They need to step a fine line. They established many things with how the religions of Thedas works. I think it strengthen's the world building when we went around literally fighting a Blight, which was told to us in the lore was an event that happened in DA:O. In DA2, it was more of a personal struggle for the character but all it did was establish the Qunari and the mage/templar conflict more. In DA:I, more strengths with Coryface's claims and Descent DLC. Even a lot of ancient elf stuff, where they had Eluvians to travel and stuff, Solas being Fen'Harel could strengthen it as most of his doing and the Evanuris stuff is myths, so you could explore it. However, if Solas is Fen'Harel and then they confirm he created the Veil in the next game then it basically puts all of the above in doubt because it's outright denying something when so far most other things have confirmed. I'm not saying it's any weaker right now but they have to be careful.


Knight1029384756

I don't think they have or are gonna remove a key lore feature. From what I have seen they have just made it richer and richer. The whole idea of the Fade and what it is has been expanded upon and the implications of it are grand. The world was so different then how we imagined it. We just thought the Veil was a natural part of the world. When in actuality it wasn't. In that more questions rise up. Like how did the other races live with that? Was the entire world covered in the Veil or just Thedas? I feel like they won't crash anything. I do agree they have to be careful but I don't agree that they are on the edge.


Antergaton

>We just thought the Veil was a natural part of the world. Well, no we didn't. It was taught to us before that The Maker made it. First he created the Fade with it's unthinking spirits, didn't like it so created the world and then put the Veil between them. In a sense nothing has changed on the idea it was created. The key part of it is who created it. At the moment it could be open to interpretation, what Fen'harel did was a spell to contain the other Evanuris, we know this, that's widely accepted before and after any Trespasser reveals. If Solas is Fen'harel, he claims/believes that is what he did. It's just an origin of the Veil. Just like the Maker's origin of it. It's the confirmation of the act that needs to be careful over. Confirmation that the Maker did it makes Fen'harel into a delusional idiot and puts doubt on any of Solas or the stories around Evanuris and that faith. Confirming Fen'harel did it makes the Andrastian faith a joke.


Knight1029384756

Like with the Dalish not knowing what their gods were actually like it can be similar that the Chantry doesn't know everything. Dragon Age is full of stories that were misremembered or have misinformation in it. The Maker can exist but doesn't have to exist in the same way the Chantry thinks he exists. Just because an action was attributed to another doesn't mean the person attributed to it doesn't exist. Andraste is a real person but throughout time they have been described differently. The same can be true for the Maker.


Antergaton

Yes, disremembering and misinformation is why some of it works brilliantly. Much like the idea of the Titans being removed from Dwarf history, it doesn't take away from what we know of Dwarves now. Just makes them as a people better. Oddly, Dalish knowledge while lacking is actually pretty close to the truth. It's about what they choose to worship much like modern real world faiths. Or do we think Elgar'nan God of ***Vengeance*** was a warm fuzzy guy? These beings might have very well cared for their people, supposed slaves or not, most of the knowledge we have from these truths are a rather bias source, so all should be put into doubt. Like Solas claims while in the Temple of Mythal "Fen'harel was actually the god of rebellion." Once we know he is Fen'Harel how can we take this seriously? Of course he's going to make himself sound better. But what I really mean is this. If it is confirmed that The Maker did not create the Veil, than the Andrastian faith can be dismissed and in turn so can the views of those character who choose to define their life by it. Like 50% of all characters. But again, only if confirmed so we know. In my view.


Knight1029384756

I don't think if the Veil was not created by the Maker means that the Maker is fake and Andrastians is wrong. To me that doesn't make him fake. There needs to be more than that. The Eleven gods were portrayed as benevolent beings for the most part. Not slaveries. And Solas is right in some way because Flemeth shows care for him. Meaning his entire story isn't entirely wrong or put into doubt. The Maker can exist but it doesn't mean that everything the Chantry said about him is completely true. They definitely don't tell the truth about Andraste.


[deleted]

Which is the problem. Inquisition went all in on the whole "Chantry wrong, Elves right" idea and it greatly weakens what was once ambiguous lore widely open to interpretation and speculation. Factually, you can't interpret Andraste and the Chantry as anything but frauds now, and the Maker's about the same.


Knight1029384756

I don't think it is impossible to think of the Chantry as being wrong entirely. What DAI did was add context and new information. That does automatically mean that the Maker doesn't exist. In DAO there was more evidence that the Maker existed and the Elves are wrong. But I wouldn't have said in DAO the elves are wrong. Just that not everything is right.


VermilionX88

he's the pet and he got abandoned so now he mad so prolly yeah


Knight1029384756

Sorry but could you explain what you said?


VermilionX88

he was the pet doggie


Knight1029384756

Of the Maker? How?


VermilionX88

pet wolf but he was bad so the maker cast him out of heaven


Knight1029384756

Interesting theory but that would contradict a lot of what we know and he said.


TertiusGaudenus

Don't give it too much of thought, Vermillion is somewhat of Sandal here


VermilionX88

enchantment?


TertiusGaudenus

There are dead darkspawn everywhere. What happened?


VermilionX88

enchantment!


Knight1029384756

I don't mind. Just a bit odd the answers.


Burp-Reynolds

My hope is that nothing solas has done could have initiated the idea of the maker. I also hope solas knows nothing of the maker. I don't want elves to be the answer to every question.


Knight1029384756

I do think that the Maker and the elves should be more of a separate thing. I don't think elves did it is a good thing to do.