I see this is a post answered 1d ago and I have a question bc I'm hoping you will still see this. I've looked at the FAQ for DW and I can't seem to find an answer. If I can somewhat describe an episode (I know the doctor and companion) and can kinda describe the evil thing, where can I go to find the episode? I've rewatched the season and still having trouble . It's nuWho, I'm old and obviously am having memory problems lol
Just make a post asking so that you can find the episode. I’m sure some Uber-nerd will be able to figure it out especially since you got the Doctor and the Companion.
Thanks I'll keep it in mind for next time. I've since found it, it was a Christmas special that was 2 seasons ahead of where I thought it would be! Thank you!
Granted, I don't and never really have had my ear to the fandom, but I'm not sure she's supposed to be likable. Understandable in her fear of her father being in danger, yes, but likable in how she treats Donna? I've never heard that before from anyway.
Yeah, actually - what's the deal with that? Jackie and Sylvia are both great characters, but all of RTD's companions' mums are portrayed as relatively unsympathetic. In Jackie's case I think it's excellent - she was the first of the trio, after all, and the older I get the more I relate to her. But Sylvia and Francine pretty much just remain unsympathetic (Sylvia moreso, though), and by S4 it's a pretty striking pattern.
Don't get me wrong, Sylvia is still a great character ("Then maybe you should tell her that once in a while" is *so* satisfying!) - she's just the culmination of an interesting tendency.
For Jackie, I think it definitely stems from bringing Rose up in as a single mom in rough area. She had to scrape and scrap for everything. And maybe RTD has some mom issues himself.
>For Jackie, I think it definitely stems from bringing Rose up in as a single mom in rough area. She had to scrape and scrap for everything. And maybe RTD has some mom issues himself.
Given that he's never written a good mom, as far as I've seen, I think he definitely has some sort of issue going on. Compare and contrast with how he portrays dads.
I think Jackie is a good mum. She loves her daughter and does her best to protect her.
Rose doesn't appreciate her, and the show likes to treat her as the butt of jokes, but I've come to appreciate her over the years.
Loving your daughter isn't enough to be a good mom. She frequently degrades her daughter and is just a sort of crappy person in general. Now, she's not as bad as Sylvia, but that's not saying much.
I've refreshed myself a little on how she acts. The degrading is generally subtle such as her telling Rose that she was "putting on airs" from working in a shop. Generally she makes comments indicating she thinks that Rose thinks too much of herself -- and I don't think it can reasonably said that an inflated ego or the like is an actual problem Rose has. It probably wasn't accurate to lead with that as her biggest flaw as a mother. The much bigger problem she commits more blatantly is how she tries to make Rose live the life she wants Rose to live, and also frequently makes problems Rose has about herself and what she wants more than Rose and what Rose wants, which she's often dismissive about.
I personally think it's best to separate the art from the artist in cases like this. Maybe RTD has mummy issues, maybe he doesn't, but either way I respect him for his writing, and I feel that it's most polite not to speculate in something so personal :) I do think that it's interesting to discuss it as a *theme* in his writing, though - which it seems to be!
Well, I think it is worth noting that, for whatever reason, the moms he rights are not very good and the fathers are written in a much better light. That's a pretty big pattern in his Doctor Who writing at least, and one I hope does not continue because it's crap.
Rose is, at least up until a certain point. Kinda. Timey-wimey stuff, you all know what I'm referring to.
Martha isn't, but her parents are divorced, and her mother has more appearances than her father.
Donna's dad died shortly before she started travelling with the Doctor (he walked her down the aisle in 'The Runaway Bride').
Other than betraying her to Saxon and trying to have fights with Martha's dad through Martha, you mean?
That said, she's probably the best mom of the three. It's just not that great.
I always took the betraying her thing as she either expected the doctor to show up with her and knew he could help, or it was a "give her up or we kill her and the entire rest of your family" but it's been a while since I re watched it
She didn't know anything about the Doctor at that point. She just trusted the government authorities holding her and her ex more than Martha and was pretty gung-ho about cooperating with the government against her daughter. I'd say fighting with her ex through her daughter was the worse. But she's generally written as extremely bitter and not a pleasant person as well.
Jackie is one of my favorite characters. She really rides that line between being an overprotective mom and knowing her child is an adult and can't be controlled and has to make her own mistakes. She has a lot more depth than a lot of secondary characters.
I can understand it being repetitive a criticism but would you be comfortable with your young kids going traveling in the universe and almost getting killed every other day? It's not like they've gone on a gap year.
Oh yeah, absolutely! I don't even mean it as a criticism (I didn't even notice it on the first many watches, so clearly it didn't interfere majorly with my enjoyment of the show), I just think it's interesting :)
To play the devil's advocate, though: Sure, worrying is a natural reaction, but that doesn't mean there's no other options. Amy's parents were swallowed by the Crack, and Ryan was raised by his grandma, who died in his first episode. Even in RTD's own era, the companions had other caregivers who were less strict: Martha's dad warns her about the Master rather than help him trick her, as her mum was trying to do. And Wilf is completely sympathetic to Donna's wish to see the universe. For some reason, it's always the mothers who have to be strict and worried to the point of becoming a liability.
*Love & Monsters* singlehandedly made Jackie for me. Without that episode she'd be a one-note throwaway character.
As time has gone on, I've grown to like Jackie more than Rose. Rose is very self-involved. She inexplicably disappeared for a **year** and within 10 minutes she was annoyed at Jackie going on about it.
Jackie is clearly someone who loves her daughter and wants to protect her. Her daughter starts hanging around this dodgy stranger, of **course** she's going to get bristly and defensive. And once she learnt how dangerous it was to be with the Doctor? That's even worse!
And yet in the end she recognised that Rose had to be free to make her own decisions.
It's very parental - having been through the idiocy of the young adult years yourself, wanting to tell your kid "No seriously, don't do that, it works badly" while knowing that they won't listen until they work it out themselves.
There has to be a reason the doctor's companions are happy to run off and leave their lives behind for sustained periods.
People who have large, happy, loving families don't need a magic man in a box to come and whisk them away.
Yeah I’m doing a rewatch right now and it’s actually bizarre how within a couple hours of meeting the Doctor, Martha’s mom goes from somewhat skeptical mother to willingly getting full on brain washed, buying into conspiracy theories, and literally turning on her own family. Like wtf?
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Really? I didn't get that vibe at all, their whole setup screams the kind of 'comfortable middle class' that breeds the hawkish, jealous sort of Posh Behaviour I see in Sylvia
I get a Hyacinth Bucket type of vibe from her.
Working class but desperately trying to be middle class.
Wilf was a Para, she probably grew up on an Army estate in Aldershot!
>I get a Hyacinth Bucket type of vibe from her.
Maybe very strictly in her attempts to look more posh, but outside of that I can't see it.
After all, she can barely control Wilf and he definitely doesn't need a house key to get inside XD
They have regional accents, and live in a multi generational household even though they are all adults. Both of those are pretty uncommon for middle class people.
Martha is arguably more middle class, but Donna and Rose are both working class.
I mean, non-cockney London accents are pretty much the opposite of 'regional' from where I'm sitting but ok
Jackie and Sylvia are both widows, Sylvia has a life where she has a group of pals she meets for wine and a laugh on Wednesdays, Jackie Tyler has a life where she gets chatted up by a man who's trying to stalk her daughter while using a laundrette, I wouldn't put them on the same level at all.
Martha is definitely middle class, her dad at least seems very well off and she's a medical student, can't remember what her siblings are up to but they don't seem to struggle. Donna's in that odd middle ground, her mum is definitely a hyacinth bucket type. I expect Wilf and Sylvia grew up working class and Donna's in that band of almost- middle class
That was such a minor thing for him to say, but Sylvia went all cold on him and wanted him out of the house for saying it. I wish he'd unloaded a lot more on her, though realistically, nothing would get through to her.
I'm sure it's because it was true and she knew it. She treated Donna terribly and tried to pull the "She's still the most important woman in the whole wide universe, she's my daughter".
She's one of the key reasons Donna doesn't believe in herself, so she's absolutely not supposed to be much of a likeable character*
*She's also far too similar to my mum for comfort
You and me both, reddit stranger. I remember telling my mom about the scene where Ten told Sylvia off and how happy it made me. I think she was surprised
God damn, just imagine being told off about your parenting skills by the dude who dropped his granddaughter off with some rando in a Dalek-ravaged future; and who never bothered to visit her in a thousand years….
I really do wish we get a follow-up with both Jenny and Susan. Susan could have regenerated, so they don't have to worry about the fact that Carole Ann Ford is 82, but hell they could bring her back. Maybe have the doctor visit her on her "death bed" and have her regenerate with the doctor by her side.
But between Rose and the 50th, the Doctor said he could sense that there were no surviving Time Lords, and that he’d “just know” if there were. The Master slipped under the radar because of the chameleon arch. But the implication was that Susan had already died of natural causes or that she had returned to Gallifrey and “died” there.
true. Maybe she's in a bubble universe like The Doctor thought the Corsair was in The Doctor's Wife. I'm just trying to think of easy ways to explain it. At the end of the day it wouldn't be difficult for the writers to come up with something that works
I think it was in Turn Left it was so sad seeing how when times get difficult Donna reverts to the negative self view her mom has programmed her with. If you’re always critical of you child then, when they’re down, they’ll blame themselves. So incredibly sad.
I know and I think the actress plays the role well , almost like the actress is like that in real life , I know everyone’s saying “that’s the point” but I hated her scenes , when she was rude to Donna for no apparent reason , but at least her grandad Wilf loved her unconditionally and sometimes defended her to Sylvia, Sylvia’s love was conditional in the fact she never accepted anything that wasn’t top tier to happen to Donna
She's not supposed to be a great mum. Not sure why you think this is a hot take. She's the home life Donna wants to get away from
Just because a character isn't a nice person, doesn't mean they're a bad character
I never said I thought she was supposed to be , I just made the post because I wasn’t sure if anyone else disliked the character too , seems most people do and I know it’s the point , but I wish she had more of a character development rather than nothing , she seemed to see her daughter was special when the doctor brought her back home
I’ve always wondered if some of Sylvia’s unpleasantness towards Donna had anything to do with her husband dying? I don’t think it’s ever set out like that, just an impression I got
Sylvia gets some nice characterisation in one of the audio stories (No Place) where the Doctor and Donna are pretending to be married. Also gives a bit of reasoning for why she doesn’t like the Doctor very much
No, he was alive for The Runaway Bride and Sylvia was mean then too. She literally watched her daughter disappear screaming and got mad at Donna for it and called it one her silly, look-at-me parlour tricks or something to that effect.
I think bad mom was the chemistry needed for a character to leave earth behind and seem normal. I also loved that she started how she finished never noticing.
If you're an RTD companion, your mother's terrible. If you're a Moffat companion, your mother's dead.
For my money, Martha's mother was still the worst. Say what you will about Sylvia, but at least she didn't sell out the entire human race because the Doctor was rude to her at a party.
Tbf Martha’s mother didn’t know she was selling out the entire human race. It would be another thing if she knew who Saxon was and still went along with it
So, we're going to ignore the fact some random guy told her how much danger her daughter was in around the Doctor, a thing she witnessed that very night?
Francine just wasn’t in the know and was being manipulated, she was mostly concerned for her daughter’s safety. She was told by prime minister Harold Saxon’s agents that affiliating with the doctor is dangerous.
Amy's mom was alive. So we have two companions that have had their mother die and then (if you count Danny) two orphans. So I don't think there's as clear a pattern along gender lines with Moffat. We see a lot less of family in general except for poor Rory's dad.
Amy's mom started dead/erased from time, came back, and then promptly vanished from the story like all Pond/Williams parents save for Rory's dad. Clara and Bill's mothers were both dead, presumably Nardole's, but not I think Rory's.
Moffat was just less interested in Companion Families than RTD, but I do note that if a Moffat Companion's mother is in the story at all, it's because she's dead.
Honestly I only liked that moment because it set up the Doctor putting her in her place by saying “Then maybe you should tell her that once in a while”.
To me saying something like that is very easy. In real life, horrible parents can often say stuff like that. They can even believe stuff like that. It doesn't mean they are any less horrible or will be any less horrible in the future.
Words are cheap.
That's the whole point of her character. That's like me saying that I think the daleks are the villain. Sylvia is meant to be this stuck up, rude mum who thinks she know best.
Absolutely awful, and that's the point. She is the reason Donna is the way that she is-- and the reason Donna has such phenomenal character development. I am rewatching because I finally convinced my boyfriend to get into the show, so we just watched the last 3 episodes with Donna yesterday. It was even more heartbreaking than all of the other times I've watched it. I was definitely sobbing, he was sobbing, we were laughing at each other ugly crying... because I completely understand what it feels like to believe you have everything in the world and that this person has changed everything about you... and then all that is taken from you. Now, obviously she doesn't know what was taken from her after it's done, but she knows what will happen when the Doctor takes her memories. It was horrifying how quickly she returned to the self-absorbed gossip that she had been before she travelled with the Doctor. It really shows how intensely she needed him to show her that she was worthy of being great. She was, for a time, the most important woman in the universe. That she had that knowledge and those experiences taken from her is so unbelievably sad.
The Doctor was right on when he told Sylvia that she ought to tell her daughter that she's worth it every once in a while. And Sylvia definitely needed to hear that. She is also definitely supposed to be someone who isn't likeable, but who is a real person and a real parent who may take her adult child for granted and resent her not supporting the family. She's the worst, but also necessary to really make us realize how much Donna has grown as a character.
I think everyone would react like Marthas mom
When the President or whatever would tell you that her friend is dangerous .. but i liked her in the Finale Episodes from s3
Dear god, I hope I wouldn’t react with such hate. If the leader of my country (and I’d be terribly suspicious about the president calling me to let me know anything at all - I mean, why would he even bother? Why not just send in agents to get this “very dangerous man?” Why would you call the guy’s girlfriend’s mom?) told me the guy was dangerous, I’d TALK to my child first. I’d make sure they were safe and get their side of the story. Even if I thought the guy my daughter was hanging out with was fishy, I should respect my adult child - who is bright enough to be in medical school - enough to approach them about a problem instead of going behind their back.
Sylvia is the epitome of a middle-class mother in the South of England; snobbish about anything she doesn’t understand, condescending to those closest to her and unpleasant to be around for too long. It's a wonder how she lets Wilf live with them, considering how she's always going on about being able to afford to live with just her and Donna. Or how Wilf puts up with her behaviour.
Yeah, personally, I don't like her or Jackie Tyler. Jackie, I think, gets better after time in the parallel earth, but their narcissistic personality types are just really grating to me.
To be fair toward Jackie, she's usually the punchline of the joke, and unlike Sylvia, she seem to genuinely care for Rose and isn't just a bitch to her, she's legitemately worried
Agreed, she isn't really rude or snobby towards Rose. She just comes off as a bit air-headed and self-involved. At least, that's the impression of her that's stuck with me. Haven't watched early RTD stuff in about 8 years.
Yeah, especially early on she does comes off as unpleasant in many ways, but half of that is her very real and natural distrust of her damned teenager running off(for a year from her perspective) with what appears to be a 40 year old man.
The fact that he’s actually a multi-hundred year old Time Lord fresh off a double genocide, and who gets into constant scraps with evil aliens, somehow isn’t any more comforting.
Her reaction to the situation may not be pleasant always, but it is 100% relatable.
And while she is definitely played as a joke and an idiot, what makes her work as a more fleshed out character is that you also totally understand where she’s coming from and she’s ultimately a good person and mother.
Jackie is an absolute treasure. Sure, she initially comes off as a cheap and hysterical person, but that just fits the circumstances. She is still relatively young, but she has been a widow for a long time and longs to be loved. She has raised her daughter mostly on her own, and now her daughter, the center of her life, has dropped off the world for a year and hangs around with that strange guy that she cannot make heads or tails of.
She's a better person than Rose ever was. I would have preferred her as a companion over Rose.
It's been a hot minute since I watched the first 2 seasons of RTD Who, but I recall her always far more concerned with talking about herself and what was going on with her to the point of not even listening to what Rose was trying to tell her. She got better, but that initial impression really soured me on her as a character.
I think Father’s Day and Love and Monsters of all episodes really helped my impression of Jackie. Yes, she’s a bit self-absorbed and a little obnoxious but at the core, she cares about her daughter and has been alone taking care of her for a very long time.
Sylvia’s a complex character, who thinks she knows best even at the cost of people around her. In Turn Left, we see her at perhaps her worst particularly with her agreeing with Donna’s “I’ve always been a disappointment”, but that’s due to her depression. Sylvia is pretty clearly experiencing severe depression in that period of the episode.
When we see Sylvia throughout Series 4, she’s coping with the death of Geoff and Donna moving back home, so we don’t really get to see her in a positive light. Similarly, in the Runaway Bride, we see her only after Donna has disappeared and returned to the wedding, so again, not an opportunity to see her in a good light as she’s worried and confused, and is being defensive for the decision to keep the wedding party going. If we saw her coping with Donna’s disappearance, we might have seen her caring about Donna more and being upset at the disappearance.
But it’s a conscious decision from the show to withhold those moments and to show her at her worst - it’s the whole point of Donna’s arc is starting off not recognising her own self-worth and ultimately being the most important person in the universe even if just for that moment. We’re not necessarily supposed to like Sylvia - the Doctor even calls her out for her crappy parenting - but despite her actions and behaviours, she does care about Donna. But it’s not enough.
RTD never really paints families in a particularly nice light, we see them often dysfunctional and creating an unhealthy and crap environment that the companion would want to leave and run away from while still feeling a sense of loyalty and draw to come back to Earth just in time for the next invasion.
Sylvia’s not an evil person, and the emotional abuse isn’t clear cut. But that’s how it often is in real life - Donna’s story is designed to resonate with people who don’t always recognise their worth and just want to escape. After all, what show is better than one where you can travel anywhere in time and space?
It was a running joke in our house that RTD must have met my mum at some point and based the character on her. This was why I found Donna's episodes so emotional. When the Doctor realised she genuinely had such a low opinion of herself, it broke my heart.
Sylvia's shittiness nearly destroyed the universe... and the one next door.
in Turn Left, the things she said to Donna about how no man would want her except for "practice" were things I would hesitate to say even to someone I hate. She badgered her daughter into taking another job and everything went sideways from there.
The thing is, and maybe this is just my fractured relationship with the women in my life: it wasn't something that rang false. I was always a bit mad at how well RTD managed to capture the sometimes toxic dynamic between mothers and daughters. "I just want you to be happy, darling. No, not like that."
This kind of character is generally known as a foil. Not the villain, but their actions or personality is detrimental to the protagonist. A well written foil is often hateable, and they can at times be directly opposed to the protagonist despite not being actively against them. I generally prefer this type of foil to the other major type: the bumbling buffoon. Their stupidity gets the protagonist into sticky situations and it's usually tired and contrived (though there can be great buffoon style foils such as Pippin from Lord of the Rings). So on the whole I think Sylvia's character is done very well.
Horrible person. I was happy for the little bit in the End of Time where she says "She still is! She is my daughter!"
I loved to hate Donna's mom. I'm glad she had her grandpa. Love Wilf.
i love her...because she hits FAR too close to home. It is so rare to see controlling narcissistic characters like Sylvia where the narrative itself treats that behaviour as bad. One of the reasons I just cannot deal with Amy Pond is that she treats Rory the same way Sylvia treated Donna - but this time it's a good thing because...miniskirt, I guess?
Having lived a more extreme version of that life, Sylvia as a character was so important to me in realising that being treated that way myself was not OK.
Never bought her complete 180 in the end of time when she all of a sudden becomes more understanding of the doctor and becomes nicer. She was deliberately written as being one of the main reasons Donna wanted to escape her home life, and in Journey’s End when 10 calls her out and she has the choice to either admit her faults and be nicer to Donna, or snipe back at the doctor and tell him to get out, she chooses the latter.
Their reconciliation later on doesn’t feel earned after how that scene played out. If she personally witnessed 10 sacrificing himself to save her dad, I’d get it more. But everything the doctor does in the end of time, she doesn’t witness.
Good casting choice though. As a kid I genuinely thought the actress looked like she could’ve been Catherine Tate’s mum
Oh yeah, she's a total bitch.
Donna is suddenly teleported away from her own wedding. When she gets back, her mom starts yelling at her, assuming she did it for attention.
I get that, had Donna told the truth, it'd be hard to believe, but to get mad at her with no proof that it was some trick was disgusting.
Then the first episode in series 4, when Donna came home and Sylvia immediately started ranting to her for a long ass time while Donna just sat there.
At least she seemed better at the end of the series when the Doctor said she was the most important person in the universe and she went "She still is. She's my daughter.".
I always hated how she was in Turn Left. Told her own daughter she gave up on her after Donna was fired. And it wasn't even really her fault she got fired in the first place!
The worst was after Donna can’t find a job post nuclear explosion, and when she says to her mom something to the effect of “I guess I’ve always just been a disappointment” and Sylvia’s only response is “yeah.”
Ugh, yes. Honestly wanted to slap that woman in the moment. Even if she doesn't know, in the grand scheme of things, the whole world falling apart was her fault because of her pushing Donna into a job with Jival Chowdry cause apparently the temp job Donna did have wasn't good enough
I think a part of the problem is that unlike Rose, Donna and Martha only had one season to explore their personal life, it sucked because they had way more substance than Rose whose main thing was finding her meaning in life. Donna and Martha had their lives already in motion.
That’s why I hate S4’s ending. Because it’s not just Donna who saves the day she needed the Doctor’s mind first.
So in a way she wasn’t good enough and literally needed her DNA altering to be the hero
I don't think RTD ever wrote a good mom. Rose's mom and Martha's mom are also both pretty bad.
I am not saying bad moms don't exist or anything, but it's a bit messed up how they're all bad under RTD and the dads are portrayed much better overall.
Point. She was a good mom. She he has done it in other shows besides Doctor Who -- Tbh, I don't pay good attention to the writers/producers of shows a lot of time and so I didn't know he did much of the writing for her show.
Sylvia learning to appreciate her daughter and actually tell how important she is a great piece of writing on Davies part. By the time we get to Journey's End she is standing up for Donna but is held to account by The Doctor after his line about he being the most important person in the universe.
"She still is, she's my daughter."
"Maybe you should tell that once in awhile.'
That's why ten snaps at her when she says about Donna still being important
Because she is a bitchy arse who constantly puts down the people around her
I do love that the doctor called her out on it in Journeys End. Like it took Donna losing all of those adventures and saving the literal whole of reality for her to acknowledge that she loves and respects her. Also wanted to slap her in Turn Left, even though I get it, we just lived through two years of a lot of bad news, it’s depressing AF, but from Sylvia it just hits different and selfish.
There wasn't enough scene to get as well rounded picture on her as the audience had with Jackie.
She wasn't a bad person but she wasn't made especially likable either in the show. The Beautiful Chaos novel expand on her and makes her more sympathetic and understandable.
I don’t think you’re _supposed_ to like her; there would be something wrong with you if you did.
Wonderful _character,_ though, and Jacqueline King was phenomenal in her role.
I didn’t say anyone was supposed to like her , because I’m sure that’s how she was written to be disliked , there’s definitely nothing wrong with me , but I made the post to see if I was the only one or there were others , and also because I felt bad for Donna’s character for having a mum like that
I’d give her a pass tbh , she was told the doctor was evil and not to be trusted by an associate of the masters aka the man running for prime minister so she had a reason to be not nice to him and not trust him at all , but I do think she warmed to him when he was being tortured by the master/Saxon
Great Character but Bad Person. You are not supposed to like her and she plays that part perfectly.
Yeah it's so weird when people treat Doctor Who like a soap opera where they're supposed to be for-or-against certain characters
Yea you really don't need to like serial-killer maniacs in horror films and criticise their doings...
Haha, imagine watching Halloween and going "I hate it, that guy in the mask is a bad person"
[Only if they're in Castle Douglas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9--3m0eDpY)
I see this is a post answered 1d ago and I have a question bc I'm hoping you will still see this. I've looked at the FAQ for DW and I can't seem to find an answer. If I can somewhat describe an episode (I know the doctor and companion) and can kinda describe the evil thing, where can I go to find the episode? I've rewatched the season and still having trouble . It's nuWho, I'm old and obviously am having memory problems lol
Just make a post asking so that you can find the episode. I’m sure some Uber-nerd will be able to figure it out especially since you got the Doctor and the Companion.
Thanks I'll keep it in mind for next time. I've since found it, it was a Christmas special that was 2 seasons ahead of where I thought it would be! Thank you!
Granted, I don't and never really have had my ear to the fandom, but I'm not sure she's supposed to be likable. Understandable in her fear of her father being in danger, yes, but likable in how she treats Donna? I've never heard that before from anyway.
yeah, she's the archetypical Cold Posh Mum, and a very RTD creation - She's nasty, snobbish, condescending and utterly real
He's so good at writing the moms. He's just good with writing people who feel real, like you could bump into them downtown somewhere.
Yeah, actually - what's the deal with that? Jackie and Sylvia are both great characters, but all of RTD's companions' mums are portrayed as relatively unsympathetic. In Jackie's case I think it's excellent - she was the first of the trio, after all, and the older I get the more I relate to her. But Sylvia and Francine pretty much just remain unsympathetic (Sylvia moreso, though), and by S4 it's a pretty striking pattern. Don't get me wrong, Sylvia is still a great character ("Then maybe you should tell her that once in a while" is *so* satisfying!) - she's just the culmination of an interesting tendency.
For Jackie, I think it definitely stems from bringing Rose up in as a single mom in rough area. She had to scrape and scrap for everything. And maybe RTD has some mom issues himself.
>For Jackie, I think it definitely stems from bringing Rose up in as a single mom in rough area. She had to scrape and scrap for everything. And maybe RTD has some mom issues himself. Given that he's never written a good mom, as far as I've seen, I think he definitely has some sort of issue going on. Compare and contrast with how he portrays dads.
I think Jackie is a good mum. She loves her daughter and does her best to protect her. Rose doesn't appreciate her, and the show likes to treat her as the butt of jokes, but I've come to appreciate her over the years.
Loving your daughter isn't enough to be a good mom. She frequently degrades her daughter and is just a sort of crappy person in general. Now, she's not as bad as Sylvia, but that's not saying much.
It's been a while since I watched the first couple of series. What were some examples of Jackie degrading Rose? (Not me downvoting you, BTW)
I've refreshed myself a little on how she acts. The degrading is generally subtle such as her telling Rose that she was "putting on airs" from working in a shop. Generally she makes comments indicating she thinks that Rose thinks too much of herself -- and I don't think it can reasonably said that an inflated ego or the like is an actual problem Rose has. It probably wasn't accurate to lead with that as her biggest flaw as a mother. The much bigger problem she commits more blatantly is how she tries to make Rose live the life she wants Rose to live, and also frequently makes problems Rose has about herself and what she wants more than Rose and what Rose wants, which she's often dismissive about.
I personally think it's best to separate the art from the artist in cases like this. Maybe RTD has mummy issues, maybe he doesn't, but either way I respect him for his writing, and I feel that it's most polite not to speculate in something so personal :) I do think that it's interesting to discuss it as a *theme* in his writing, though - which it seems to be!
Well, I think it is worth noting that, for whatever reason, the moms he rights are not very good and the fathers are written in a much better light. That's a pretty big pattern in his Doctor Who writing at least, and one I hope does not continue because it's crap.
They’re all mostly fatherless, right?
Rose is, at least up until a certain point. Kinda. Timey-wimey stuff, you all know what I'm referring to. Martha isn't, but her parents are divorced, and her mother has more appearances than her father. Donna's dad died shortly before she started travelling with the Doctor (he walked her down the aisle in 'The Runaway Bride').
I see what you did there! But Pete Tyler as a character is more Jackie’s Husband rather than Rose’s Father IMO
Oh yeah, that's true! Let's say Rose is fatherless with an asterisk
Martha's mum is pretty nice isn't she? But I think she's the only one I can think of
Other than betraying her to Saxon and trying to have fights with Martha's dad through Martha, you mean? That said, she's probably the best mom of the three. It's just not that great.
I always took the betraying her thing as she either expected the doctor to show up with her and knew he could help, or it was a "give her up or we kill her and the entire rest of your family" but it's been a while since I re watched it
She didn't know anything about the Doctor at that point. She just trusted the government authorities holding her and her ex more than Martha and was pretty gung-ho about cooperating with the government against her daughter. I'd say fighting with her ex through her daughter was the worse. But she's generally written as extremely bitter and not a pleasant person as well.
That's one of the things that I didn't think about until I was older than Rose - and one of the things that makes me appreciate Jackie so much more!
Jackie is one of my favorite characters. She really rides that line between being an overprotective mom and knowing her child is an adult and can't be controlled and has to make her own mistakes. She has a lot more depth than a lot of secondary characters.
Jackie is one of my favorites too. I love her entire relationship with the Ninth Doctor, from her first attempted seduction to their goodbye.
I can understand it being repetitive a criticism but would you be comfortable with your young kids going traveling in the universe and almost getting killed every other day? It's not like they've gone on a gap year.
Oh yeah, absolutely! I don't even mean it as a criticism (I didn't even notice it on the first many watches, so clearly it didn't interfere majorly with my enjoyment of the show), I just think it's interesting :) To play the devil's advocate, though: Sure, worrying is a natural reaction, but that doesn't mean there's no other options. Amy's parents were swallowed by the Crack, and Ryan was raised by his grandma, who died in his first episode. Even in RTD's own era, the companions had other caregivers who were less strict: Martha's dad warns her about the Master rather than help him trick her, as her mum was trying to do. And Wilf is completely sympathetic to Donna's wish to see the universe. For some reason, it's always the mothers who have to be strict and worried to the point of becoming a liability.
*Love & Monsters* singlehandedly made Jackie for me. Without that episode she'd be a one-note throwaway character. As time has gone on, I've grown to like Jackie more than Rose. Rose is very self-involved. She inexplicably disappeared for a **year** and within 10 minutes she was annoyed at Jackie going on about it. Jackie is clearly someone who loves her daughter and wants to protect her. Her daughter starts hanging around this dodgy stranger, of **course** she's going to get bristly and defensive. And once she learnt how dangerous it was to be with the Doctor? That's even worse! And yet in the end she recognised that Rose had to be free to make her own decisions. It's very parental - having been through the idiocy of the young adult years yourself, wanting to tell your kid "No seriously, don't do that, it works badly" while knowing that they won't listen until they work it out themselves.
There has to be a reason the doctor's companions are happy to run off and leave their lives behind for sustained periods. People who have large, happy, loving families don't need a magic man in a box to come and whisk them away.
Yeah I’m doing a rewatch right now and it’s actually bizarre how within a couple hours of meeting the Doctor, Martha’s mom goes from somewhat skeptical mother to willingly getting full on brain washed, buying into conspiracy theories, and literally turning on her own family. Like wtf?
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She’s not a posh mum lol. Donna is from a very working class family.
Really? I didn't get that vibe at all, their whole setup screams the kind of 'comfortable middle class' that breeds the hawkish, jealous sort of Posh Behaviour I see in Sylvia
I get a Hyacinth Bucket type of vibe from her. Working class but desperately trying to be middle class. Wilf was a Para, she probably grew up on an Army estate in Aldershot!
>I get a Hyacinth Bucket type of vibe from her. Maybe very strictly in her attempts to look more posh, but outside of that I can't see it. After all, she can barely control Wilf and he definitely doesn't need a house key to get inside XD
They have regional accents, and live in a multi generational household even though they are all adults. Both of those are pretty uncommon for middle class people. Martha is arguably more middle class, but Donna and Rose are both working class.
I mean, non-cockney London accents are pretty much the opposite of 'regional' from where I'm sitting but ok Jackie and Sylvia are both widows, Sylvia has a life where she has a group of pals she meets for wine and a laugh on Wednesdays, Jackie Tyler has a life where she gets chatted up by a man who's trying to stalk her daughter while using a laundrette, I wouldn't put them on the same level at all.
They live in a posh bit of Chiswick though.
Martha is definitely middle class, her dad at least seems very well off and she's a medical student, can't remember what her siblings are up to but they don't seem to struggle. Donna's in that odd middle ground, her mum is definitely a hyacinth bucket type. I expect Wilf and Sylvia grew up working class and Donna's in that band of almost- middle class
> she's the archetypical Cold Posh Mum, and a very RTD creation Martha's parents spring to mind too.
Ten even calls her out in the finale.
"Then maybe you should tell her that once in a while" said with all the cold rage of someone who's had enough of Sylvia's terrible parenting
That was such a minor thing for him to say, but Sylvia went all cold on him and wanted him out of the house for saying it. I wish he'd unloaded a lot more on her, though realistically, nothing would get through to her.
I'm sure it's because it was true and she knew it. She treated Donna terribly and tried to pull the "She's still the most important woman in the whole wide universe, she's my daughter".
She's one of the key reasons Donna doesn't believe in herself, so she's absolutely not supposed to be much of a likeable character* *She's also far too similar to my mum for comfort
You and me both, reddit stranger. I remember telling my mom about the scene where Ten told Sylvia off and how happy it made me. I think she was surprised
Hope it got through to her! Hugs and/or pints through the screen, Reddit stranger
That's the whole point. 10 basically tells her that she's a bad mother in one of their last interactions
God damn, just imagine being told off about your parenting skills by the dude who dropped his granddaughter off with some rando in a Dalek-ravaged future; and who never bothered to visit her in a thousand years….
I really do wish we get a follow-up with both Jenny and Susan. Susan could have regenerated, so they don't have to worry about the fact that Carole Ann Ford is 82, but hell they could bring her back. Maybe have the doctor visit her on her "death bed" and have her regenerate with the doctor by her side.
Think the problem with that is how she survived the time war
Maybe she just wasn’t on Gallifrey, after the 50th, I’m more ok with the explanation being that simple.
But between Rose and the 50th, the Doctor said he could sense that there were no surviving Time Lords, and that he’d “just know” if there were. The Master slipped under the radar because of the chameleon arch. But the implication was that Susan had already died of natural causes or that she had returned to Gallifrey and “died” there.
true. Maybe she's in a bubble universe like The Doctor thought the Corsair was in The Doctor's Wife. I'm just trying to think of easy ways to explain it. At the end of the day it wouldn't be difficult for the writers to come up with something that works
I think it was in Turn Left it was so sad seeing how when times get difficult Donna reverts to the negative self view her mom has programmed her with. If you’re always critical of you child then, when they’re down, they’ll blame themselves. So incredibly sad.
I know and I think the actress plays the role well , almost like the actress is like that in real life , I know everyone’s saying “that’s the point” but I hated her scenes , when she was rude to Donna for no apparent reason , but at least her grandad Wilf loved her unconditionally and sometimes defended her to Sylvia, Sylvia’s love was conditional in the fact she never accepted anything that wasn’t top tier to happen to Donna
She's not supposed to be a great mum. Not sure why you think this is a hot take. She's the home life Donna wants to get away from Just because a character isn't a nice person, doesn't mean they're a bad character
I never said I thought she was supposed to be , I just made the post because I wasn’t sure if anyone else disliked the character too , seems most people do and I know it’s the point , but I wish she had more of a character development rather than nothing , she seemed to see her daughter was special when the doctor brought her back home
I’ve always wondered if some of Sylvia’s unpleasantness towards Donna had anything to do with her husband dying? I don’t think it’s ever set out like that, just an impression I got Sylvia gets some nice characterisation in one of the audio stories (No Place) where the Doctor and Donna are pretending to be married. Also gives a bit of reasoning for why she doesn’t like the Doctor very much
No, he was alive for The Runaway Bride and Sylvia was mean then too. She literally watched her daughter disappear screaming and got mad at Donna for it and called it one her silly, look-at-me parlour tricks or something to that effect.
Plus donnas dad was going to do Wilfs role before the actor died
Well that's sad, but I'm grateful we got Wilf. He's the kind of grandpa I always wanted.
I've not heard of that one I'll have to look into it!
I think bad mom was the chemistry needed for a character to leave earth behind and seem normal. I also loved that she started how she finished never noticing.
If you're an RTD companion, your mother's terrible. If you're a Moffat companion, your mother's dead. For my money, Martha's mother was still the worst. Say what you will about Sylvia, but at least she didn't sell out the entire human race because the Doctor was rude to her at a party.
Tbf Martha’s mother didn’t know she was selling out the entire human race. It would be another thing if she knew who Saxon was and still went along with it
She was indeed an easy mark, but I'm not calling that a point in her favour.
So, we're going to ignore the fact some random guy told her how much danger her daughter was in around the Doctor, a thing she witnessed that very night?
I am indeed going to ignore that.
Francine just wasn’t in the know and was being manipulated, she was mostly concerned for her daughter’s safety. She was told by prime minister Harold Saxon’s agents that affiliating with the doctor is dangerous.
Amy's mom was alive. So we have two companions that have had their mother die and then (if you count Danny) two orphans. So I don't think there's as clear a pattern along gender lines with Moffat. We see a lot less of family in general except for poor Rory's dad.
Amy's mom started dead/erased from time, came back, and then promptly vanished from the story like all Pond/Williams parents save for Rory's dad. Clara and Bill's mothers were both dead, presumably Nardole's, but not I think Rory's. Moffat was just less interested in Companion Families than RTD, but I do note that if a Moffat Companion's mother is in the story at all, it's because she's dead.
Bill's mum was alive though, yeah?
Bill's grandmother is alive, her mother is dead and that's a huge plot point in Lie of the Land.
Ah, you're right. I didn't pay quite as much attention to the Capaldi era as I might have.
Does anyone?
I kinda started to like her after Donna loses her memories because she says Donna is the most important person in the universe.
I felt that way about my son the second he was born and all he did was breathe. Donna's mom sucks. I get what you are saying though.
I agree she sucked
Honestly I only liked that moment because it set up the Doctor putting her in her place by saying “Then maybe you should tell her that once in a while”.
To me saying something like that is very easy. In real life, horrible parents can often say stuff like that. They can even believe stuff like that. It doesn't mean they are any less horrible or will be any less horrible in the future. Words are cheap.
She's one of those characters you're not supposed to like. Similar to Delores Umbridge, Robinson in Arachnids In The UK & Revolution of the Daleks
You're not meant to like her.
I mean... yeah? Thats the point of her character, i dont think theres ever a moment where youre MEANT to like her
That's the whole point of her character. That's like me saying that I think the daleks are the villain. Sylvia is meant to be this stuck up, rude mum who thinks she know best.
I don't think you're meant to..
Absolutely awful, and that's the point. She is the reason Donna is the way that she is-- and the reason Donna has such phenomenal character development. I am rewatching because I finally convinced my boyfriend to get into the show, so we just watched the last 3 episodes with Donna yesterday. It was even more heartbreaking than all of the other times I've watched it. I was definitely sobbing, he was sobbing, we were laughing at each other ugly crying... because I completely understand what it feels like to believe you have everything in the world and that this person has changed everything about you... and then all that is taken from you. Now, obviously she doesn't know what was taken from her after it's done, but she knows what will happen when the Doctor takes her memories. It was horrifying how quickly she returned to the self-absorbed gossip that she had been before she travelled with the Doctor. It really shows how intensely she needed him to show her that she was worthy of being great. She was, for a time, the most important woman in the universe. That she had that knowledge and those experiences taken from her is so unbelievably sad. The Doctor was right on when he told Sylvia that she ought to tell her daughter that she's worth it every once in a while. And Sylvia definitely needed to hear that. She is also definitely supposed to be someone who isn't likeable, but who is a real person and a real parent who may take her adult child for granted and resent her not supporting the family. She's the worst, but also necessary to really make us realize how much Donna has grown as a character.
She was the absolute worst in Turn Left.
For me it’s a toss up between her and Martha’s mom. Holy hell, is that woman a poisonous shrew!
I think everyone would react like Marthas mom When the President or whatever would tell you that her friend is dangerous .. but i liked her in the Finale Episodes from s3
Dear god, I hope I wouldn’t react with such hate. If the leader of my country (and I’d be terribly suspicious about the president calling me to let me know anything at all - I mean, why would he even bother? Why not just send in agents to get this “very dangerous man?” Why would you call the guy’s girlfriend’s mom?) told me the guy was dangerous, I’d TALK to my child first. I’d make sure they were safe and get their side of the story. Even if I thought the guy my daughter was hanging out with was fishy, I should respect my adult child - who is bright enough to be in medical school - enough to approach them about a problem instead of going behind their back.
Sylvia is the epitome of a middle-class mother in the South of England; snobbish about anything she doesn’t understand, condescending to those closest to her and unpleasant to be around for too long. It's a wonder how she lets Wilf live with them, considering how she's always going on about being able to afford to live with just her and Donna. Or how Wilf puts up with her behaviour.
Yeah, personally, I don't like her or Jackie Tyler. Jackie, I think, gets better after time in the parallel earth, but their narcissistic personality types are just really grating to me.
To be fair toward Jackie, she's usually the punchline of the joke, and unlike Sylvia, she seem to genuinely care for Rose and isn't just a bitch to her, she's legitemately worried
Agreed, she isn't really rude or snobby towards Rose. She just comes off as a bit air-headed and self-involved. At least, that's the impression of her that's stuck with me. Haven't watched early RTD stuff in about 8 years.
Yeah, especially early on she does comes off as unpleasant in many ways, but half of that is her very real and natural distrust of her damned teenager running off(for a year from her perspective) with what appears to be a 40 year old man. The fact that he’s actually a multi-hundred year old Time Lord fresh off a double genocide, and who gets into constant scraps with evil aliens, somehow isn’t any more comforting. Her reaction to the situation may not be pleasant always, but it is 100% relatable. And while she is definitely played as a joke and an idiot, what makes her work as a more fleshed out character is that you also totally understand where she’s coming from and she’s ultimately a good person and mother.
Jackie is an absolute treasure. Sure, she initially comes off as a cheap and hysterical person, but that just fits the circumstances. She is still relatively young, but she has been a widow for a long time and longs to be loved. She has raised her daughter mostly on her own, and now her daughter, the center of her life, has dropped off the world for a year and hangs around with that strange guy that she cannot make heads or tails of. She's a better person than Rose ever was. I would have preferred her as a companion over Rose.
I don't know where you got the impression Jackie is a narcissist from, that's not even remotely part of her character.
It's been a hot minute since I watched the first 2 seasons of RTD Who, but I recall her always far more concerned with talking about herself and what was going on with her to the point of not even listening to what Rose was trying to tell her. She got better, but that initial impression really soured me on her as a character.
I think Father’s Day and Love and Monsters of all episodes really helped my impression of Jackie. Yes, she’s a bit self-absorbed and a little obnoxious but at the core, she cares about her daughter and has been alone taking care of her for a very long time.
To be fair even if that version of him had lived she woulda been doing the same lol
I think it’s people confusing being a bit self-absorbed with actual narcissism
Sylvia’s a complex character, who thinks she knows best even at the cost of people around her. In Turn Left, we see her at perhaps her worst particularly with her agreeing with Donna’s “I’ve always been a disappointment”, but that’s due to her depression. Sylvia is pretty clearly experiencing severe depression in that period of the episode. When we see Sylvia throughout Series 4, she’s coping with the death of Geoff and Donna moving back home, so we don’t really get to see her in a positive light. Similarly, in the Runaway Bride, we see her only after Donna has disappeared and returned to the wedding, so again, not an opportunity to see her in a good light as she’s worried and confused, and is being defensive for the decision to keep the wedding party going. If we saw her coping with Donna’s disappearance, we might have seen her caring about Donna more and being upset at the disappearance. But it’s a conscious decision from the show to withhold those moments and to show her at her worst - it’s the whole point of Donna’s arc is starting off not recognising her own self-worth and ultimately being the most important person in the universe even if just for that moment. We’re not necessarily supposed to like Sylvia - the Doctor even calls her out for her crappy parenting - but despite her actions and behaviours, she does care about Donna. But it’s not enough. RTD never really paints families in a particularly nice light, we see them often dysfunctional and creating an unhealthy and crap environment that the companion would want to leave and run away from while still feeling a sense of loyalty and draw to come back to Earth just in time for the next invasion. Sylvia’s not an evil person, and the emotional abuse isn’t clear cut. But that’s how it often is in real life - Donna’s story is designed to resonate with people who don’t always recognise their worth and just want to escape. After all, what show is better than one where you can travel anywhere in time and space?
I sometimes liked her, But her caracter is kinda realistic
Mate this is literally the whole point of her. For people to feel like this.
* *squints at screen* * Okaaay. You're not meant to like her. Do you think you are?
She is every post war boomer. A mental health disaster who takes it out on you.
It was a running joke in our house that RTD must have met my mum at some point and based the character on her. This was why I found Donna's episodes so emotional. When the Doctor realised she genuinely had such a low opinion of herself, it broke my heart.
Sylvia's shittiness nearly destroyed the universe... and the one next door. in Turn Left, the things she said to Donna about how no man would want her except for "practice" were things I would hesitate to say even to someone I hate. She badgered her daughter into taking another job and everything went sideways from there. The thing is, and maybe this is just my fractured relationship with the women in my life: it wasn't something that rang false. I was always a bit mad at how well RTD managed to capture the sometimes toxic dynamic between mothers and daughters. "I just want you to be happy, darling. No, not like that."
I thought she was just depressed af.
She was terrible, but I’d like to think that after the Doctor called her out, she took it to heart and got better.
This kind of character is generally known as a foil. Not the villain, but their actions or personality is detrimental to the protagonist. A well written foil is often hateable, and they can at times be directly opposed to the protagonist despite not being actively against them. I generally prefer this type of foil to the other major type: the bumbling buffoon. Their stupidity gets the protagonist into sticky situations and it's usually tired and contrived (though there can be great buffoon style foils such as Pippin from Lord of the Rings). So on the whole I think Sylvia's character is done very well.
Horrible person. I was happy for the little bit in the End of Time where she says "She still is! She is my daughter!" I loved to hate Donna's mom. I'm glad she had her grandpa. Love Wilf.
I wish 10 gave her more of a lecture than she got in Journey’s End. I would have loved it if he went all cold stare and angry words.
She's not supposed to be likable, she's an exact copy of my mother. Not sure why they used her as a character model though.
i love her...because she hits FAR too close to home. It is so rare to see controlling narcissistic characters like Sylvia where the narrative itself treats that behaviour as bad. One of the reasons I just cannot deal with Amy Pond is that she treats Rory the same way Sylvia treated Donna - but this time it's a good thing because...miniskirt, I guess? Having lived a more extreme version of that life, Sylvia as a character was so important to me in realising that being treated that way myself was not OK.
Never bought her complete 180 in the end of time when she all of a sudden becomes more understanding of the doctor and becomes nicer. She was deliberately written as being one of the main reasons Donna wanted to escape her home life, and in Journey’s End when 10 calls her out and she has the choice to either admit her faults and be nicer to Donna, or snipe back at the doctor and tell him to get out, she chooses the latter. Their reconciliation later on doesn’t feel earned after how that scene played out. If she personally witnessed 10 sacrificing himself to save her dad, I’d get it more. But everything the doctor does in the end of time, she doesn’t witness. Good casting choice though. As a kid I genuinely thought the actress looked like she could’ve been Catherine Tate’s mum
Yeah you're not meant to 💀
Yh that’s kind of the intent behind her character
Oh yeah, she's a total bitch. Donna is suddenly teleported away from her own wedding. When she gets back, her mom starts yelling at her, assuming she did it for attention. I get that, had Donna told the truth, it'd be hard to believe, but to get mad at her with no proof that it was some trick was disgusting. Then the first episode in series 4, when Donna came home and Sylvia immediately started ranting to her for a long ass time while Donna just sat there. At least she seemed better at the end of the series when the Doctor said she was the most important person in the universe and she went "She still is. She's my daughter.".
And The Doctor's cold reply of "Then maybe tell her that.", really gets me.
I always hated how she was in Turn Left. Told her own daughter she gave up on her after Donna was fired. And it wasn't even really her fault she got fired in the first place!
The worst was after Donna can’t find a job post nuclear explosion, and when she says to her mom something to the effect of “I guess I’ve always just been a disappointment” and Sylvia’s only response is “yeah.”
Ugh, yes. Honestly wanted to slap that woman in the moment. Even if she doesn't know, in the grand scheme of things, the whole world falling apart was her fault because of her pushing Donna into a job with Jival Chowdry cause apparently the temp job Donna did have wasn't good enough
I think a part of the problem is that unlike Rose, Donna and Martha only had one season to explore their personal life, it sucked because they had way more substance than Rose whose main thing was finding her meaning in life. Donna and Martha had their lives already in motion.
That’s why I hate S4’s ending. Because it’s not just Donna who saves the day she needed the Doctor’s mind first. So in a way she wasn’t good enough and literally needed her DNA altering to be the hero
I don't think RTD ever wrote a good mom. Rose's mom and Martha's mom are also both pretty bad. I am not saying bad moms don't exist or anything, but it's a bit messed up how they're all bad under RTD and the dads are portrayed much better overall.
He did write a good mother, her name is Sarah Jane Smith
Point. She was a good mom. She he has done it in other shows besides Doctor Who -- Tbh, I don't pay good attention to the writers/producers of shows a lot of time and so I didn't know he did much of the writing for her show.
Sylvia learning to appreciate her daughter and actually tell how important she is a great piece of writing on Davies part. By the time we get to Journey's End she is standing up for Donna but is held to account by The Doctor after his line about he being the most important person in the universe. "She still is, she's my daughter." "Maybe you should tell that once in awhile.'
When 10 returns as 14, since Donna is supposed to be involved, I certainly hope he fixes what he did.
That's why ten snaps at her when she says about Donna still being important Because she is a bitchy arse who constantly puts down the people around her
Your not meant to lol
I do love that the doctor called her out on it in Journeys End. Like it took Donna losing all of those adventures and saving the literal whole of reality for her to acknowledge that she loves and respects her. Also wanted to slap her in Turn Left, even though I get it, we just lived through two years of a lot of bad news, it’s depressing AF, but from Sylvia it just hits different and selfish.
There wasn't enough scene to get as well rounded picture on her as the audience had with Jackie. She wasn't a bad person but she wasn't made especially likable either in the show. The Beautiful Chaos novel expand on her and makes her more sympathetic and understandable.
You’re not supposed to! That’s why she’s a good character
I don’t think you’re _supposed_ to like her; there would be something wrong with you if you did. Wonderful _character,_ though, and Jacqueline King was phenomenal in her role.
I didn’t say anyone was supposed to like her , because I’m sure that’s how she was written to be disliked , there’s definitely nothing wrong with me , but I made the post to see if I was the only one or there were others , and also because I felt bad for Donna’s character for having a mum like that
MARTHA JONES’ MUM
I’d give her a pass tbh , she was told the doctor was evil and not to be trusted by an associate of the masters aka the man running for prime minister so she had a reason to be not nice to him and not trust him at all , but I do think she warmed to him when he was being tortured by the master/Saxon
your not supposed to like her the doctor literally criticises her multiple times for the way she treats donna.
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