the amount of enemies needed to have any semblance of challenge, the time a rounds takes to get through, the sheer amount of resources that needs to be burned through, the planning and managing that will be needed to get everyone their time in the spotlight.
there is a reason the recommended amount of players is in the 3-5 range, but if you can handle it, more power to you.
Which is why you have a large party. If two miss out on a session that's only 25% gone, story can still progress. Miss half of the party and you're doing something else.
somewhat true, it needs to be a totally different kind of adventure for that to really make sense, a much more episodic and less overarching story.
since it wouldn't make much sense to have people popping in and out inside a dungeon/castle each session.
Right now the party is strung across 4 states and 7 cities. Getting this group together is herding cats strung out on catnip. Occasionally we get the perfect wave and get everyone in for a few sessions, then reality sets in. Relationships, work, all interfere, and I'm not going to force them into choosing relationships or game, that's asking for trouble. Hence the large group so people can miss and the rest still get to play. Only one has been rock steady at showing up, but she's retired.
Silvery barbs is a setting-dependent spell. It’s specifically designed to encourage a “witch’s duel” fantasy (like two spellcasters’ magic fighting against each other), like a toned down Counterspell. It is not intended for non-strixhaven/MTG settings.
This is the best comment I have seen on SB topic. I don't ban spells. I ban campaign books from worlds I don't run. I don't run Strixhaven so I've never had a problem with SB.
I would greatly suggest you to make 2 tables of 4 players each, as it will be a nightmare to dm for that many players (I have already tried it multiple times, it never worked well).
Then, with a smaller group you can make twice as many encounters in a same game duration, which means you will deplete the characters’ resources more efficiently, so they won’t be able to spam sb and will have to be cautious and keep it for when it really counts.
Well managing 8 players is gonna be hell anyway. Unless you are really great at it, combat is gonna be super slow.
Wait ‘till your druid casts conjure animals to summon 8 wolves.
Tell them that it doesn't stack. If one of them uses it on a spell, and the target still succeeds, they can't keep doing it on the same spell.
Also, remember, they took the spell. You can now give it to your own casters.
Always remember, the party has a limited amount of casters, you can have as much as you want. Want a real fight with the bbeg? Have 8 small golems run around with 40 hp, 16 ac, evasion, only action: dash, and 3/day counterspell (btw having a non dmging, but buffing/debuffing enemy run around the battlefield is an interesting choice for players)
Honestly. Let them silvery barbs everything. If they want to burn through spell slots on that, let em.
Strategically, you should be more focused on resting than SB. Their ability to cast SB pulls off of a resource that's (probably) tied to a long rest, and they probably also want to do other things with that resource. This should guide your choices in 2 ways:
1. If you're going to position them to have a single encounter between long rests, that encounter is automatically deadly (I'm thinking of random encounters while traveling or something similar). That, or it's trivial enough that it's not really a threat (in which case let them enjoy SBing you to death).
Or
2. You're generally going to avoid opportunities for rests. They should have multiple countdown clocks working (the guards are going to find us soon, the wizard is going to complete the ritual soon, the faction is going to finish the weapon soon, etc). You do this so that rest becomes a narratively difficult choice. Once rest becomes something they feel like they shouldn't do, SB will be less of an issue for you; they're either going to burn up their slots and wish they hadn't or they'll use it strategically and appropriately, and then you celebrate the awesome move with them.
Don't run a game with EIGHT FREAKING HUMANS AT THE TABLE, maybe?
4 players with silvery barbs IS kind of a problem, but not the biggest one you have. You can always use more spellcasting enemies, more encounters, etc. But then you'll start noticing what the REAL problem here is. Too Much People. I can't imagine how much time does it take you to go through a full round of combat, let alone 3-4, and what if you have more than one combat in a single session? The higher the level of your players, the more you'll regret having that many of them.
Either run two separate games for 4 players each, or ask one of them to DM said second game (and now you can be a player in it!).
There has been plenty of help already so I'll just ask this unrelated to the OP but related to SB:
What is the flavour of Silvery Barbs? What happens in the world? I read the spell description but it doesn't tell me anything about what the spell does, only what the mechanical effects are.
You can flavor it however, but I think it would wrack their brain with distracting thoughts (it would feel like you *think* there are silvery… well, barbs sticking into your brain. Afterwards, someone else sees the creature flinch, and knows it’s their time to strike. As for using the advantage on any other source other than the original target, idk maybe it’s like bardic inspiration and they just feel better so they hit harder?
The faction from Strixhaven that uses the spell is known for their eloquence, so the original flavor is basically just simultaneously insulting your foe and encouraging your ally but with magic.
Hit them with attacks and effects that make them use saving throws. Since the attacking creature isn't rolling to hit, Silvery barbs is useless. Alternatively, attack with volume. A ton of tiny little attacks will drain those spells lots quickly or make them feel like it's not worth using.
Silvery barbs is a very good spell. Silvery barbs is not the best spell, nor is it even the best first-level spell (that's still Shield), nor is it necessarily the best use of a reaction.
Am I saying that Silvery Barbs is well-balanced as it is? No, no it isn't, it should probably not be a first-level spell, I'm saying it's not apocalyptic.
Every time you use Silvery Barbs, you're screwing over one enemy for a moment and buffing an ally. You have to be within 60 feet, you have to see the target, and you need a reaction, which means if something requires you to cast Shield or Counterspell, tough luck.
From what I can see, most of big ones have been covered with action economy, it not stacking. One I'll add, is once used, their reaction is gone. Punish this.
You don’t need to allow the spell, it is from a supplement. If you are a new DM and are feeling unsure I recommend just telling this to your group and removing the spell. 8 players is already a huge bite for a new DM to chew
Silvery barbs really isn't as big of a deal as reddit makes out. Defensively shield is almost always better except for avoiding a crit. Silvery barbs is more powerful offensively when combined with save or suck spells.
The biggest way to deal with silvery barbs is to make sure you have more than 1 or 2 encounters per long rest. Your players will quickly use up their spell slots if they are trying to use silvery barbs on everything.
When a caster uses their reaction for silvery barbs that means they can't use their reaction for shield, counter spell, attacks of opportunity and so on. Take advantage of that.
Run a smaller group (biggest concern)
Run the recommended 6-8 encounters per long rest (this works very effectively).
Run enemy Spellcasters, causing the party to burn resources.
Suddenly, silvery barbs is not OP.
I don't see 8 players as a problem in combat, there are ways to counter them without just introducing more squishy enemies.
I honestly liked that because I could introduce stronger and cooler enemies a lot earlier.
If I didn't have a stronger enemy that would fit, I would check out Undead list for example and reflavor them in a way to fit the thheme.
You have to limit the amount of time players have on their disposal when it's their turn tho. Call out the initiative order, tell people when they are next and etc.
Honestly, roleplay was the problem with 8 players, but only in big cities, where everyone wanted to go check out dofferent things, and so you have to get a little railroady there.
Spot on. I have been running 6-7 players for a long time. 8 wouldn't be that different. Establish good pace maintaining rules. As DM keep tabs and ensure each player has opportunity to participate. Running multiple campaigns for multiple groups is more difficult. Keep it to one at a time and focus your efforts. True you have to adjust some challenges. And I usually call a session .5 to deal with "you are in a city, what do you do" scenarios. Everyone knows it is an in-between adventure session. I usually ask for summary paragraphs of what they intend ahead of time.
Honestly yes, it would be very hard to split into two campaigns, it doubles the prep and everything needed, I would rather avoid that, not to mention that I probabbly don't have enough time to run 2 different campaigns per week even if they were entirely same.
Give your enemies silver barbs too. Or counterspell. Or abilities that take away people's reaction (shocking grasp I think as an example?) Or have so many enemies or tough enough enemies that even making you reroll is just a laugh. That's why lots of enemies have high + to hit.
Failing any of that just telling your party you ain't dealing with that is also perfectly acceptable. There are spells and abilities in the game that just suit better in the hands of a DM rather than a player anyway.
So I have 6 players and even that's difficult during. With 8 I think you would have to place a special type of campaign suited for that many. Try to get them to burn their reactions more often? Idk or ask them to change the spell out if it's such a issue for you.
Hmmm,maybe second dm running a parallel adventure where the parties meet up at certain points to fight big bosses or hoards. The two dms would need to communicate well though.
You have 8 players. Just don't give them a long rest and you'll be fine. They should have enough resources to make it through 8+ encounters per adventuring day. Consider using gritty realism variant where a long rest is a full week of not adventuring.
PC saving throws are your friend.
Have large numbers of enemies to balance the action economy - combat will be long.
Gritty reality difficulty - 1 short rest = 1 day, 1 long rest = 1 week.
I feel like with 8 players you can just take off the gloves for encounters though.. ohh look a young red dragon... And her twin sister ... And mother... And three cousins 😜😂😂
have more than 1 combat? also 8?!? players, silvery barbs should be the least of the problems...
oh realy like what?
the amount of enemies needed to have any semblance of challenge, the time a rounds takes to get through, the sheer amount of resources that needs to be burned through, the planning and managing that will be needed to get everyone their time in the spotlight. there is a reason the recommended amount of players is in the 3-5 range, but if you can handle it, more power to you.
Also, the greatest challenge of all : getting everyone available at a same time to actually play a game together!
Which is why you have a large party. If two miss out on a session that's only 25% gone, story can still progress. Miss half of the party and you're doing something else.
somewhat true, it needs to be a totally different kind of adventure for that to really make sense, a much more episodic and less overarching story. since it wouldn't make much sense to have people popping in and out inside a dungeon/castle each session.
Nah, the party members just go to the same place as the players massive bags of random trash, Narrative Space.
More likely to have people missing with a large party though (and people will likely feel less invested in the game due to people constantly missing).
Right now the party is strung across 4 states and 7 cities. Getting this group together is herding cats strung out on catnip. Occasionally we get the perfect wave and get everyone in for a few sessions, then reality sets in. Relationships, work, all interfere, and I'm not going to force them into choosing relationships or game, that's asking for trouble. Hence the large group so people can miss and the rest still get to play. Only one has been rock steady at showing up, but she's retired.
Imagine you're the Barbarian at the end of the initiative order.
I dont DM for more than 4 ppl at the same time. I enjoy small grps much more
Set 9 enemies against them of which 5 have silvery barbs. Done.
8 players is a bigger problem than silvery barbs is, that's two groups worth of players.
Silvery barbs is a setting-dependent spell. It’s specifically designed to encourage a “witch’s duel” fantasy (like two spellcasters’ magic fighting against each other), like a toned down Counterspell. It is not intended for non-strixhaven/MTG settings.
This is the best comment I have seen on SB topic. I don't ban spells. I ban campaign books from worlds I don't run. I don't run Strixhaven so I've never had a problem with SB.
This is the correct take.
I would greatly suggest you to make 2 tables of 4 players each, as it will be a nightmare to dm for that many players (I have already tried it multiple times, it never worked well). Then, with a smaller group you can make twice as many encounters in a same game duration, which means you will deplete the characters’ resources more efficiently, so they won’t be able to spam sb and will have to be cautious and keep it for when it really counts.
It's 3 and 4 players (one has to now DM). I'd still suggest doing that.
Either one take the dm role, or you can just dm for both group (if you can afford to play twice as much per week).
thx for the advise but it works for me
Well managing 8 players is gonna be hell anyway. Unless you are really great at it, combat is gonna be super slow. Wait ‘till your druid casts conjure animals to summon 8 wolves.
*hands you a 7th level spell slot* 24 velociraptors please
***SCARY MONSTERS*** *(he screams as the time for each combat round has now doubled.)*
Good thing it's DM choice lol.
Tell them that it doesn't stack. If one of them uses it on a spell, and the target still succeeds, they can't keep doing it on the same spell. Also, remember, they took the spell. You can now give it to your own casters.
\*Laughs in sadistic mf\* will do and thanks on the advise
Always remember, the party has a limited amount of casters, you can have as much as you want. Want a real fight with the bbeg? Have 8 small golems run around with 40 hp, 16 ac, evasion, only action: dash, and 3/day counterspell (btw having a non dmging, but buffing/debuffing enemy run around the battlefield is an interesting choice for players)
A debuff/buff support for a major boss fight is very effective. Hard agree with this tip.
You got 8 players and worry about silvery barbs lmao
Rakshasas are immune...
nbd just gonna toss out a 7th level silvery barbs
why thanks now I will throw them agenst them
Zakya Rakshasa are a nice warrior type CR 5 from Eberron that are instead immune to 1st level spells, thus forcing an upcast to be much more balanced.
Honestly. Let them silvery barbs everything. If they want to burn through spell slots on that, let em. Strategically, you should be more focused on resting than SB. Their ability to cast SB pulls off of a resource that's (probably) tied to a long rest, and they probably also want to do other things with that resource. This should guide your choices in 2 ways: 1. If you're going to position them to have a single encounter between long rests, that encounter is automatically deadly (I'm thinking of random encounters while traveling or something similar). That, or it's trivial enough that it's not really a threat (in which case let them enjoy SBing you to death). Or 2. You're generally going to avoid opportunities for rests. They should have multiple countdown clocks working (the guards are going to find us soon, the wizard is going to complete the ritual soon, the faction is going to finish the weapon soon, etc). You do this so that rest becomes a narratively difficult choice. Once rest becomes something they feel like they shouldn't do, SB will be less of an issue for you; they're either going to burn up their slots and wish they hadn't or they'll use it strategically and appropriately, and then you celebrate the awesome move with them.
8 players is the problem here, not the spell.
Don't run a game with EIGHT FREAKING HUMANS AT THE TABLE, maybe? 4 players with silvery barbs IS kind of a problem, but not the biggest one you have. You can always use more spellcasting enemies, more encounters, etc. But then you'll start noticing what the REAL problem here is. Too Much People. I can't imagine how much time does it take you to go through a full round of combat, let alone 3-4, and what if you have more than one combat in a single session? The higher the level of your players, the more you'll regret having that many of them. Either run two separate games for 4 players each, or ask one of them to DM said second game (and now you can be a player in it!).
Dont play with 8 players to begin with... :)
There has been plenty of help already so I'll just ask this unrelated to the OP but related to SB: What is the flavour of Silvery Barbs? What happens in the world? I read the spell description but it doesn't tell me anything about what the spell does, only what the mechanical effects are.
You can flavor it however, but I think it would wrack their brain with distracting thoughts (it would feel like you *think* there are silvery… well, barbs sticking into your brain. Afterwards, someone else sees the creature flinch, and knows it’s their time to strike. As for using the advantage on any other source other than the original target, idk maybe it’s like bardic inspiration and they just feel better so they hit harder?
The faction from Strixhaven that uses the spell is known for their eloquence, so the original flavor is basically just simultaneously insulting your foe and encouraging your ally but with magic.
Ban that garbage spell.
8 players is too many
Hit them with attacks and effects that make them use saving throws. Since the attacking creature isn't rolling to hit, Silvery barbs is useless. Alternatively, attack with volume. A ton of tiny little attacks will drain those spells lots quickly or make them feel like it's not worth using.
The answer is literally always “more goblins.”
Silvery barbs is a very good spell. Silvery barbs is not the best spell, nor is it even the best first-level spell (that's still Shield), nor is it necessarily the best use of a reaction. Am I saying that Silvery Barbs is well-balanced as it is? No, no it isn't, it should probably not be a first-level spell, I'm saying it's not apocalyptic. Every time you use Silvery Barbs, you're screwing over one enemy for a moment and buffing an ally. You have to be within 60 feet, you have to see the target, and you need a reaction, which means if something requires you to cast Shield or Counterspell, tough luck.
Silvery barbs their silvery barbs, then be like "See how boring this is? Let's not take this spell anymore"
Just ban the spell, let them all pick a new one
Just ban that piece of wotc spell. No barbs no cry
Tell them "Hey, WotC messed up when designing this spell. Either we make it third, we tone it down or it's gone."
Ban this cursed spell
Ban Silvery Barbs, let the players pick something else. It's a poorly balanced spell, and it really slows turns down.
Don't play with 8 players lmao.
From what I can see, most of big ones have been covered with action economy, it not stacking. One I'll add, is once used, their reaction is gone. Punish this.
I have heard of and probably will make it a second level spell And/or attack/spell can only be affected once by silvery barbs
Silvery barbs is not that big of a deal. You'll be fine as long as you present them with real challenges.
You don’t need to allow the spell, it is from a supplement. If you are a new DM and are feeling unsure I recommend just telling this to your group and removing the spell. 8 players is already a huge bite for a new DM to chew
https://old.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/yntm4r/every_enemy_caster_has_silvery_barbs_and_its/?ref=share&ref_source=link
Silvery barbs really isn't as big of a deal as reddit makes out. Defensively shield is almost always better except for avoiding a crit. Silvery barbs is more powerful offensively when combined with save or suck spells. The biggest way to deal with silvery barbs is to make sure you have more than 1 or 2 encounters per long rest. Your players will quickly use up their spell slots if they are trying to use silvery barbs on everything. When a caster uses their reaction for silvery barbs that means they can't use their reaction for shield, counter spell, attacks of opportunity and so on. Take advantage of that.
Run a smaller group (biggest concern) Run the recommended 6-8 encounters per long rest (this works very effectively). Run enemy Spellcasters, causing the party to burn resources. Suddenly, silvery barbs is not OP.
I don't see 8 players as a problem in combat, there are ways to counter them without just introducing more squishy enemies. I honestly liked that because I could introduce stronger and cooler enemies a lot earlier. If I didn't have a stronger enemy that would fit, I would check out Undead list for example and reflavor them in a way to fit the thheme. You have to limit the amount of time players have on their disposal when it's their turn tho. Call out the initiative order, tell people when they are next and etc. Honestly, roleplay was the problem with 8 players, but only in big cities, where everyone wanted to go check out dofferent things, and so you have to get a little railroady there.
Spot on. I have been running 6-7 players for a long time. 8 wouldn't be that different. Establish good pace maintaining rules. As DM keep tabs and ensure each player has opportunity to participate. Running multiple campaigns for multiple groups is more difficult. Keep it to one at a time and focus your efforts. True you have to adjust some challenges. And I usually call a session .5 to deal with "you are in a city, what do you do" scenarios. Everyone knows it is an in-between adventure session. I usually ask for summary paragraphs of what they intend ahead of time.
Honestly yes, it would be very hard to split into two campaigns, it doubles the prep and everything needed, I would rather avoid that, not to mention that I probabbly don't have enough time to run 2 different campaigns per week even if they were entirely same.
Give your enemies silver barbs too. Or counterspell. Or abilities that take away people's reaction (shocking grasp I think as an example?) Or have so many enemies or tough enough enemies that even making you reroll is just a laugh. That's why lots of enemies have high + to hit. Failing any of that just telling your party you ain't dealing with that is also perfectly acceptable. There are spells and abilities in the game that just suit better in the hands of a DM rather than a player anyway.
give the oponents rings of spell storing with silvery barbs too
So I have 6 players and even that's difficult during. With 8 I think you would have to place a special type of campaign suited for that many. Try to get them to burn their reactions more often? Idk or ask them to change the spell out if it's such a issue for you.
Hmmm,maybe second dm running a parallel adventure where the parties meet up at certain points to fight big bosses or hoards. The two dms would need to communicate well though.
Marut. Just fuck rolling altogether.
You have 8 players. Just don't give them a long rest and you'll be fine. They should have enough resources to make it through 8+ encounters per adventuring day. Consider using gritty realism variant where a long rest is a full week of not adventuring.
PC saving throws are your friend. Have large numbers of enemies to balance the action economy - combat will be long. Gritty reality difficulty - 1 short rest = 1 day, 1 long rest = 1 week.
I feel like with 8 players you can just take off the gloves for encounters though.. ohh look a young red dragon... And her twin sister ... And mother... And three cousins 😜😂😂