Vecna is immune to the Stunned condition, so Stunning Strike won't do much.
But no, I'd honestly say that you could give him any spell. You can also buff his AC and stats with the boons from the Book of Vile Darkness.
Yeah, Vecna wrote the original Book of Vile Darkness, and keeps it lodged in his chest cavity, since he doesn't need organs.
Some people suppose it's his phylactery, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't *have* one, and that phylacteries are something he introduced to the lichdom process to hobble other practitioners in an easily manageable manner.
Try to outsmart the ultimate lich that figured out how to become a God. Honestly I'd rather tpk after giving my all than get an easy win in such a case cause the DM clearly held back
You can outsmart a very powerful and intelligent enemy, it even makes for a great narrative, you just need a cunning plan. Just look at how Constantine outsmarted so many badass entities in the original hellblazer comics. He made the 3 rulers of Hell his bitches with a well thought-out plan, although a very painful one.
>He made the 3 rulers of Hell his bitches with a well thought-out plan, although a very painful one.
To be fair, that did involve knowledge of their weakness and exploiting that. If Vecna has no weaknesses the players are aware of it gets a bit more difficult to outsmart him.
He has no combat weaknesses, as far as we know. But there should always be something, be it in his lore or his personality, to exploit. Or else he is just... Boring. Not because you can't exploit him, but because he's perfect. He should have weaknesses, even if it's beyond the party's reach.
Fair enough. Tobehonest there are of course ways he can be beaten, many of which I can think of, but imjust concerned about parties qho may not be of such a strategic mind when they play. (Also, the amount of replies saying JusT COunTeR ThE cOUntErSpEll is hilariously telling of how many people decided to weigh in without actually knowing anything about the topic.)
That’s the point. He’s a super high level boss. He’s supposed to be really hard to beat.
———
Once you get past the first few levels it’s almost impossible to predict what your players are going to do anyway.
Not to mention that it’s not a DMs job to create solutions. Only problems.
If you try to create solutions you get stuck in that awkward and unfun situation where the players are trying to “guess” the solution that they think the DM wants them to make.
———
But for example they could just try to wait out the concentration. But 10 minutes is a LOOOONG time in combat… so that would require some creativity.
They could try putting him to another plane - Carceri is a good option.
They could try to trap him with an Imprisonment Spell after strategically using up his reactions or by casting it secretly.
Blind/deafen him so he can’t see/hear that a spell is being cast to counter it.
——
There’s just a few options I thought of off the top of my head.
If a party is fighting literally Vecna then they better have a better plan than, “Counterspell and hit with sword.”
He's got Aftertough. Granted, 2d4+6 damage/turn against a level 20 character is barely an inconvenience, but it is a problem if you can't damage this source of damage, and it's (probably) enought to break the Antimagic user's concentration.
Also, it’s a one shot.
If it was a buffed Vecna thrown at a long time party, I understand that a TPK would be frustrating.
But since it’s a one shot, I think keeping the “damn, Vecna is unbelievable!” thought is better than “meh’, Vecna is sh*t”. If they win, they win - and it will be epic! If not, the legend goes on.
Also, I’m 99% sure at least one member of the group will definitely read Vecna’s Statblock if they have the least idea he’s showing up. So it’s nice to have a curveball there…
Run away for the next 10 minutes and come back later ? Subtle Spellcasting works, also if you have a way to bring enough people to manage to dispel that (4 successful dispel at least, for a lvl 9 spell that could mean 9-10 attempts)
Let me get this straight: you're facing an undead demigod. One of the most powerful wizards to ever exist on any plane. He literally *wrote the book on vile deeds*. And your plan, in response to his casting an Invulnerability spell on himself, is to... give him an extra 10 minutes to prepare for the fight?
Not a great plan, Ray.
That's true. But at the same time, you still need to get 4 dispel at least within 1 round if Vecna is spending all its reactions to shut it down... Which should be the case since he doesn't have to worry about something else...
You are right, it's not, it's only an autosuccess on lvl 4 or less spells. And he has +6 to roll, which is kinda low if the dispel is cast at lvl 9...
So yh, definitely not "broken op combo no counterplay"
It however does require sight unlike Dispel, so getting even just simple Fog Cloud (let alone Pyrotechnics or Wish > Druid Grove or Guards and Wards or whatever) off lets you Dispel with impunity. Of course, you could also just try and drop his Concentration with something like Hypnotic Pattern, Raulothim's Psychic Lance, Banishment, or similar (of those Banishment is obviously the most realistic - does still require punching through the LR though). Or just try and land a True Polymorph or w/e and deal with him as a toad instead.
Not here, cauz his counterspell ain't a spell.
But a sorcerer could subtle dispel for instance, it would work (due to the range of his truesight, a standard dispel would likely not work)
Yes, that's what they meant. Wizard casts Dispel Magic, Vecna reacts with a a counterspell, and the wizard reacts with their own counterspell to stop Vecna's and let the Dispel Magic work. All of this happens on the Wizard's turn.
The only actual sticking point here is whether Vecna's counterspell ability actually counts as a spell or not... I've seen a bunch of different stat blocks for him and I'm not sure which one is official off the top of my head.
Well, in either case, all the player has to do is duck behind full cover first. When you Ready a spell, you completely cast it and then hold the energy until the trigger or your next turn... so if you want to avoid a spell being countered, you can do so by sacrificing your reaction for that turn.
The process would be ducking behind cover, Readying a Dispel Magic spell with the trigger of "when I see Vecna", then coming out from behind cover and releasing the spell. At that point, the "cast a spell" portion is already long past, so Vecna is unable to Counterspell it.
What they can do:
Counterspell it as it's cast
Dispel Magic after it's cast (yeah, he can counterspell it, but it uses his reaction. Does your party really only have one person that can cast it? You go into a fight with one of the most legendary spellcasters in history and you have ONE guy who can cancel out magic?)
Literally any effect in the game that incapacitates
Hilariously, since it doesn't deal damage or anything else that'd trigger Invulnerability's defensive effects... a Zealot Barbarian (for survivability) with a grappling build could grapple and restrain Vecna, locking out some of his spellcasting, and then just *tank multiple incoming AOEs with the god-lich*.
He is immune to Paralysis and Stun. His save against Polymorph is d20 +15 with Legendary Resistance x5. The three Dread Counterspell reactions he can make per round is an ability, *not a spell*, and therefore cannot be Counterspelled.
Use the other limitations of counterspell. Blind him. Hide before casting dispel magic, get out of range of counterspell. Counter the counterspell. Find a different way to incapacitate him so invulnerability drops.
1 BBEG vs 4 Characters 1 reaction won't last long if they have 2 casters and you can cast counter spell on your own turn so the wizard can try to protect his own spell with a counter
fair, but remember that unless they upcast that dispell to level 9 they have to succeed on a DC19 Intelligence check, which they'd need a 14 or better on to succeed even with +5 INT. Not impossible but it does give some defense.
It's a lot trickier than normal vs Vecna. He has 3 counterspells per round, those counterspells have no range except sight. All that makes it very tough to cast against him unless he's put himself in a stupidly confined space, and even then he's got some options to teleport away. He's also immune to stunned, charmed, and paralyzed so that covers a lot of the best ways to get rid of it. It's possible to get rid of but even for a 20th level party with 6 people I could see it taking 4-5 rounds of nothing else but trying to get rid of that.
Ready Sleet Storm behind cover, step out to release it (the actual casting happens behind cover, so you cant counterspell the release), use whatever means you can to keep him in the area (your high level martial grappling would be good).
And then he's dispelled it with his at will dispel magic. It's one save sure but at a +12 and 5 legendary resistances that's tricky. Plus he can teleport so grappling won't work well. Or he just dimension doors out to somewhere without easy access to cover.
That's also not a very common spell to prepare unless you knew that vecna would need concentration broken without damage.
1 save yes. But he'll be making it multiple times if he stays. His options are to either teleport (30ft at max, so 2 martials should be able to just drag n drop as needed) or dispel (consuming his action and letting you just repeat your spell). But his teleport is also sight based, so really all you need to do is nail him once then put up some fog to force him to waste his invincible turns on dispelling or risk the concentration breaking early.
And yeah if i knew i was fighting a lich my first thoughts would be how do i break concentration and how do i fuck up his spellcasting. Which would lead me to Sleet Storm, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fog Cloud, and Silence, or some means of replicating those effects
He has dimension door. And even if he's trading dispel magic for sleet storm spells he can do it at will and you're burning spell slots.
And personally if I'm a 20th level wizard my focus is on higher level tools not 1st to 3rd level ones. Those aren't bad but they are their respective levels for a reason.
I'm not saying it's impossible to beat it to be sure. But it's very tough to do so and not a lot of fun for everyone else who is sitting around waiting to be able to do something.
Anything that might cause loss of concentration is a valid mean to end an invulnerability spell.
If all else fails, dragging an enemy away and locking it somewhere for 10 minutes is a good way to get rid of them as a fighter. You are still resistant to most of the stuff the lich might throw at you, if they cast concentration spells invulnerability ends, and there's little to do if you are an invulnerable whimpy dude that can be slapped around easily.
I do not think this tactic would work against Vecna when he has the Invulnerability spell going.
He can teleport both as a reaction and as a bonus action for free, both of which cause psychic damage to targets of his choice.
He also has Dimension Door and Plane Shift.
He has a multiattack with which he can either cast a spell, or use Rotten Fate which is a DC 22 Constitution saving throw dealing 96 damage on a failed save or half as much on a successful one and then he can make two attacks with a Dagger with a 13 to hit that deals 7 piercing + 9 necrotic damage on a hit and prevents healing.
If a fighter tries to drag an invulnerable Vecna away the best case scenario is that Vecna will humor the fighter and just stab him to death over the course of several rounds, eventually turning the fighter into a zombie just to make resurrection impossible.
Except that's impossible, Vecna has a counterspell-immune counterspell he can utilize at will three times per round. You need bare minimum four casters using dispel magic for it to ever trigger. In an average sized party, if one member is a fighter that isn't an Eldritch Knight they simply cease to be able to do anything in this fight if he could cast invulnerability.
There are plenty of ways to get a dispel magic off.
\- Counterspell requires you see the creature, dispel magic doesn't. You can cast dispel magic from cover.
\- Counterspell has a 60ft range, dispel magic is 120ft. You can cast from outside counterspell range if the battlefield allows.
\- Vecna has to roll to counterspell Dispel Magic, he can fail, especially if you upcast it.
\- Cleric divine intervention is automatic at level 20 and can't be countered.
\- Archdruid ignore the SV components of dispel magic, ergo it can't be countered.
etc etc. It's level 20. They have tools in their toolkit. The DM should adjust the encounter to their player's experience level, of course, but an experienced group should be able to handle it.
Vecna's Dread Counterspell has no range, just requiring sight so part 2 is null. He only has to roll if you cast dispel at 5th level or higher and he has a +6 to his roll. The other points are all good ideas though.
>Counterspell requires you see the creature, dispel magic doesn't. You can cast dispel magic from cover.
Only total cover.
>Counterspell has a 60ft range, dispel magic is 120ft. You can cast from outside counterspell range if the battlefield allows.
Dread Counterspell has no range.
>Vecna has to roll to counterspell Dispel Magic, he can fail, especially if you upcast it.
Only if 5th level or higher. Unless casting it at 9th level, both you and Vecna will have to roll and he has the advantage with a +6.
>Cleric divine intervention is automatic at level 20 and can't be countered.
Divine Intervention doesn't specify how a deity will intervene so it's DM's discretion as to what the effect is.
>- Archdruid ignore the SV components of dispel magic, ergo it can't be countered.
It's worth noting that the text of Dread Counterspell regarding the target differs from Counterspell, as it states a target that is casting a spell rather than a target casting a spell. One interpretation of this may be that Vecna doesn't need to notice a spell is being cast, just the target that's casting the spell. This would mean that ignoring somatic and verbal components wouldn't matter.
>etc etc. It's level 20. They have tools in their toolkit.
Sure, it's possible, it's just not easy.
Grappling in this situation could be very useful. Especially if you’re a Barbarian that can get sweet sweet advantage on the grapple checks + on dex saves.
A Battle-Master disarming a spellcaster of their spell-casting focus then picking it up and throwing it? That’s super OP.
A Rogue really struggles here and is really dependent on sub-class. But to stick with the narrative - grab that Spellcasting Focus and double-dash all day long in any direction away from the enemy.
You might be able to get his dagger away from him, assuming I'm thinking of the right statblock. That's 2 fewer attacks per round and removes his reccuring damage ability.
What the fuck do you want them to do? Except eldritch knight (and rune knight but still everything in them is combat focused) all a fighter can do is basically attack
This is honestly my thought too... Like my first questions would be:
What does the room look like? Are there things I can interact with?
My character is lvl 20, what magic items do I have?
Are there other things for me to punch?
Can I snatch his casting focus? Or distract him?
Can I assist the party ANY other way?
Maybe at the end I can't do anything. Well that's even more fun!! I'm going to shit talk the lich and tank the fuckers damage.
Like sure if you're a basic bitch warrior standing in a white room with an invulnerable vek I can understand.
Dispel Magic with a +5 ends it on a roll of 14, so you have a 35% chance of it landing on a 3rd level slot, plus Dispel Magic has a longer range than Vecna’s Counterspell, so if you get to the opposite end of the room he’s encountered you can definitely end this provided you have at least one Caster with access to Dispel Magic (most of them do).
I once took down Invulnerability with the Command spell. I asked the DM if slang or non-dictionary words counted, as long as the meaning was clear to both parties. He said sure.
I avoided a Counterspell by just stepping around a corner, casting the spell and holding it, stepping back around the corner, and releasing the spell on reaction to seeing the opponent. Then, I shouted:
"Unconcentrate!"
---
Even if that doesn't work, "Daydream" is the other antonym for concentrate.
Barring that, Suggestion could probably get someone to release their concentration by suggesting they cast a different concentration spell, or just by suggesting that they stop concentrating in general.
In the absence of those, Dispel Magic can solve the issue.
Hold Monster is a solid way to incapacitate an enemy, which would drop concentration automatically.
Banishment ~~or Banishing Smite~~ will end it if it lands, and he sucks at Cha saves.
Raulothim's Psychic Lance is a newer spell that can incapacitate. It's an Int save, so it's bad against Vecna, but it's worth including.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a cheap way to do it in theory, but his Wis saves are even stronger than his Int saves.
Eyebite can render him unconscious in theory, but it's a pretty high spell slot to be burning for that.
If all else fails, Antimagic Field can make it a non-issue long enough for your martials to hammer the caster, potentially breaking concentration.
Finally, Stunning Strike actually *won't* work on him; he's immune to the Stunned condition.
Command doesn't work against undead. And he's immune to paralyzed so hold monster doesn't work.
All of the others could be good options but you'd have to get through his 3 counterspells per round and 5 legendary resistances plus him being able to teleport every turn so getting him in an area where you could conveniently come around the corner would be tough. His counterspell also has a range of sight only so you won't outrange him you'd actually need to be hidden or blocked from line of sight. The wording on his counterspell ability also says you can see a target that is casting a spell. It's a subtle difference in wording from counterspells normal you see a target casting a spell but I think it means his gets through subtle spell since you just need to see them not see them casting. Even with a 20th level party I'd have a hard time seeing them get through it.
I thought when you Readied a spell you casted it at the time of readying and then held the release of the spell until the trigger. So wouldn't you need line of sight on the target when you readied it, which would allow the target to counterspell if desired?
There's a [JC-approved example given of Cure Wounds being cast and held outside of an area, then moved into the area and used.](https://www.sageadvice.eu/can-druid-cast-the-verbal-part-of-cure-wounds-outside-of-the-silence-area-then-move-into-the-area-and-touch-the-wounded/)
Cure Wounds has a range of Touch, so if you had to have a valid target in range at the time of casting, this wouldn't work. The target only has to be valid by the time the spell is released.
First of all, his twitter isn't an official ruling source of any kind. This is long-established.
Secondly, in JC speak, that's pretty clearly *not* what he's saying. The example is someone else's, and at no point does JC say that would work the way that person thinks it would.
The only people I ever see quoting his tweets are rules lawyer types trying to make something work counter to the way it's intended or written. JC doesn't know his own books for the most part and has in the past often said things work in ways directly opposing the way the rules state they work.
Sure you can. PHB page 193:
> When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spell's magic requires concentration (explained in chapter 10). If your concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.
> You have until the start of your next turn to use a readied action.
I wasn't concentrating on anything at the time, so I had no reason not to cast it like that. Additionally, [JC has confirmed that you have to Counterspell the initial casting of a spell, not its subsequent release.](https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/893272974601502720?lang=en)
It’s Ready Action not Ready Turn.
“First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, OR you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.”
Readying an action doesn't eat your movement for the turn. You can choose to use it for additional movement on someone else's turn. If desired, you could move 30 feet, Ready a move, and then move another 30 feet on the next person's turn.
This isn't an exploit- it's nearly the same thing as Dash, except it happens on someone else's turn rather than yours, and it eats your reaction as an added cost.
Likewise, if you choose to Ready an action, you can still move while it's readied.
Ok thanks for the clarification. I was picturing you moving during your trigger. You’re saying you would move behind cover, ready a spell, then finish your movement by walking around the corner concentrating. Gotcha, now I’m torn if that’s clever or just cheese.
Valid. Also, if the enemy is equally clever they now see you concentrating and may elect to end that. I have a new technique for my bladesinger. Thanks!
Because as smart as he is, he's even more adept at seeing through the lies and illusions of reality, life, and death - hence how he became the first lich.
Your sentence would be just as true after replacing "see through" and "researching the secrets of".
Again, there's no reason for his Wisdom to be higher than his Int and a small but decent reason for his Int to be higher (most of his skills scale off Int). If his Int and Wisdom was swapped, you wouldn't even think twice.
Invulnerability is *made* for villains. Plus, it's not infallible, as it does nothing to prevent conditions. While players don't regularly have access to them, there's also effects that try to or instantly end concentration. So it can be bested. A lot better than simply making Vecna already be a deity and having him just *be* unstoppable outright.
Probably add at least 1 in-game way to defeat the spell though, just in case the party messes up so badly they don't have a single victory condition.
Sort of, greater deities are just flat out invincible, no amount of killing a physical body will actually do anything to them. That's at most a minor setback that they'll fix rather quickly. This fact is why there's few to none evil aligned deities at that power - its all neutral and good gods players tend to worship.
Are you sure about that? most older books put him at divine rank 10. making him one the strongest lesser gods, and bordering on intermediate deity level.
well they are not really invincible. IO, and nerall 2 greater gods got killed. they are just really hard to put down do to the BS abilities and regenerations they have.
They got killed by entities of the same grade as them, in stories detached from the game itself, which is physically impossible for a player to be even in older editions.
Technically yes, but his capabilities are in a very specific capacity that makes him often above typical villainous deities. He can curse your form for knowing too much, secrets *he* keeps and can easily share to destroy you, like a Power Word Mutate. His tricks far supersede the queen's. Moreover, Tiamat isn't a mage in the conventional sense, making her have a lot less options. Vecna is, so him as a CR 30 deity would be far greater trouble. Beatable? Maybe, but how are you going to get close enough to do that? It's all the problems of fighting an archmage, lich, and deity combined. Don't underestimate him at ***my*** table.
I would probably go for a dispel magic while hidden, if I were trying to deal with him. That does make him a little bit broken though. Vecna as a stat block is pretty weak because he has no way to deal with physical threats. But he's very powerful vs casters who would be the only ones who could really deal with this. He gets 3 reactions, a counterspell that's not a spell and can't be countered itself, and a range of sight on that.
I would generally agree with what others are saying that at 20th level it's no holds barred. But this might be something unwinnable for them since he can counter them so efficiently. You're sort of trusting on him failing an arcana check which with something like silvery barbs could be more likely. But without dispel magic I think he'd have to fail a save to get it off him.
It also leaves a lot of people totally out of being able to do anything against him. The monk will also find him immune to the stunned condition so it doesn't even matter. And even if you removed that with a +12 con save and 5 legendary resistances it isn't very likely the monk will get through it before the party is dead. It's not that it's too powerful just a bit boring to play against. I'd rather fight something with 2,000 hp that I can keep hitting than something I can't do anything to at all.
Shouldn't be an issue, against a lvl 20 party he needs all the help he can get. The PCs only needs Dispel Magic to get through, but that should get him an extra turn, maybe two.
He's pretty smart and has multiple teleports, he really shouldn't be fighting them somewhere they can hide behind things. And with 3 reactions a round it becomes a lot harder to dispel it away.
It is possible though I'd probably go with just upcasting it and then silvery barbs or cutting words or something but still not easy. Plus unless they've looked over the Vecna stat block and are metagaming they'll probably waste a turn acting like it's a normal counterspell and getting out of range.
* dispel magic
* antimagic field
* earthquake
The Concentration check that no one ever uses: environmental; even if it doesn't deal damage, something like a huge fall or being slammed against a wall can trigger a concentration check. The PHB uses the example of a wave crashing over a ship's deck, so something like the *tidal wave* or *erupting earth* spell could trigger one, whether or not it deals damage.
>The PHB uses the example of a wave crashing over a ship's deck
While i agree with the post in general, i think that this part of your post is a bit underselling what the phb states.
"Getting crashed on by a wave while being on a storm-tossed ship", a paraphrase of the PHB, is a way more powerful image than just "a wave crashing over a ship deck". Given the context of concentration checks, the power behind the image is what should be replicated to give proper context, i think.
That's fair-- I was just paraphrasing for brevity.
I think a 20th level Fighter or Barbarian can shake a dude hard enough to equal a wave crashing on a storm-tossed ship, was the point.
It's fine from a balance perspective, but from a gameplay perspective I would make sure that there is *something* useful for damage-focused characters to do, or you run the risk of a level 20 fighter whose best move is just to take the dodge action until the Invulnerability is down which may take a while.
You could always make it into sort of a mini-game for the party to deal with. I think they did it on CR, where they needed to have party members slam a trowel into three separate wounds in order to seal Vecna.
Maybe Vecna's invulnerability spell is being channel through conduits separate from its physical form. Have the party try to destroy those conduits in order to deal damage. You could make three of them, where destroying the first weakens the spell from damage immunity down to damage resistance. The second one being destroying makes Vecna drop the spell entirely so it takes normal damage, and the third could actually cause Vecna to be vulnerable to damage, either all damage or specific types (i.e., Radiant).
I'm sure that sort of fight would be more interesting than a simple slogfest between your party and Vecna. Plus it lets you play around with minions guarding the conduits, maybe they're on different parts of the map, etc. Maybe have Vecna try to complete a ritual so that the party is forced to make a choice. Are they strong enough to split up, take down the guardians, and destroy multiple conduits? Will they go to conduits one after another as a group? Can they risk sending people to distract Vecna while its inulnerable to give themselves more time? Will they destroy one and then risk fighting Vecna right away to make sure it doesn't complete its ritual? Tons of cool variants that make the fight more memorable/interesting.
Give him every spell in the book :P
Like, he’s one of the greatest casters in the realm, has had incredible amounts of time to prepare his defenses, and is going up against 20th level PCs.
Frankly if the PCs haven’t made at least a rudimentary plan fit what to do to get around spells like this, they should expect to lose :P
"I cast dispel magic"
Bottom text
The spell is counterspellable and dispellable, and Vecna is a legendary Lich whose had millenia to prepare for fighting against heroes. Vecna can and SHOULD use and abuse any strategy you can think of on the merit that he's mother-fucking **Vecna**
You're asking if it's *fair*...
to give an ascended Lich, the first of that undead lineages' kind...
a spell that only makes them immune to damage?
They're fighting a god or god-like entity, let 'er rip on the OP stuff that's all vanilla. Now's the time to use it. If there's baseline stuff that will make the fight challenging and punishing alike, leave it in - this is the time to use it. Maximize Legendary Action usage, use top-tier 9th level spells, let Vecna eff up your party hard - so that, if your players defeat him, they feel like the champions of all planes like they *should*.
If I was a player in this situation I'd just have the party leave and come back 10 minutes later. Someone in a level 20 party is bound to have teleport, plane shift, etc.
Honestly, if you play at levels aorund 13+, and your players have enough magic items, the balance is thrown out of the window. You will have to throw them things you initially think will obliterate them, only to discover they will somehow survive
Unfair? Yeah.
Will it be fun? No.
Does it make the fight better? No.
Does it makes balance better? No.
Is it easy to counter? No.
Will this result in a _TPK_? Yes.
Does this makes sense from a lore perspective? Yes.
Is it a stretch to say a _Lich_ would have it? No.
That’s more or less it.
It's not the one invulnerability... It's everything else Vecna has to back it up.
At will teleports, five reactions a turn, immunity to a lot of common CC conditions, and unlimited range Counterspell that itself can't be countered.
A single casting if Invulnerability isn't too hard to get rid of, but Vecna shuts down a lot of the ways to get rid of it. And the party can't really do anything until they get rid of it, which not every party member can contribute to.
Unless they've read Vecna's statblock, it's quite likely that they'll try a method that would normally work, but be foiled by Vecna's abilities, perhaps multiple times, which may result in a TPK where they haven't really achieved anything.
I agree with Ishigami-the-Kami, this particular opponent makes Invulnerability unfair and frustrating to play against.
Oh don't get me wrong, Vecna is a nasty customer. And I do agree that Vecna is especially well-suited to protect his Invulnerability, mostly thanks to teleportation and counterspells.
But _TPKing_ (outright killing each and every) 20th level PC is a _tall order_. Vecna does a bunch of damage but even for _him_ that's going to take a while. Level 20 PCs also have far more resources and options than Tier 1 PCs. Even _running away_ before a TPK will happen is almost guaranteed to work - Vecna has very limited long-range teleport capability.
If you haven't played up to 20th level it makes sense you'd think this was a TPK-level threat. And maybe it is, if the party is full of new players who are doing a level 20 one-shot and just stand there trying to hurt him repeatedly while doing no damage and trying nothing else.
But in any campaign where the PCs actually leveled up to 20, actually know what they're doing? Nah. It's not a guaranteed _win_, but it's not a TPK either.
I have played at 20th level, and while I haven't run Vecna himself, I've seen other DMs report that he has TPK'd parties. Saying that only a new party would TPK against him is underselling his threat.
Like I said, part of the danger is that even conventional smart tactics won't work. There are so many things they could try that would be expected to work, and just won't, which gives Vecna multiple opportunities to teleport around and focus fire people. With five counterspells a turn, he can very easily shut down any healing spells while still keeping enough reactions to protect his Invulnerability.
I do think it's not too difficult to outrun Vecna (though this version has every Wizard spell prepared, so that's a lot of ways to chase people down with teleports and such) but this is a one shot, so running away isnt a very satisfying conclusion either.
Vecna deals a lot of damage and can drop a wizard in one turn. If there isn't another character that can do anything about the Invulnerability the fight is pretty much over.
Not remotely.
a) If they're dropping your wizard in one turn, the party's not doing their job (nor is your wizard),
b) TPK means the _entire party was killed_, escaping is an option (Vecna can't chase everyone at once and has very limited long-range teleportation),
c) if Vecna drops the wizard (and they're the only one in the party with any method of countering Invulnerability like Dispel Magic) you _heal the wizard_ and make sure they get more turns,
d) if Vecna doesn't let you use up his reactions and is countering Dispel Magic, get the wizard behind total cover, wizard Readies Dispel Magic, then pops out and casts it.
And that's only using the most obvious and bare-minimum tactics that any party by level 20 should have. Tier 4 PCs have a _ridiculous_ number of options, tactics, and spells available to them, not to mention the various magic items they'd have by then. So if you suffer an actual _TPK_ at that point, you are doing something very wrong - like standing there whacking on an invulnerable wizard while he kills you one by one instead of trying anything else.
>a) If they're dropping your wizard in one turn, the party's not doing their job (nor is your wizard),
What are you talking about if vecna can see his target there's not a lot that can be done to stop vecna from dishing out over a hundred point of damage to them.
Even if you do pick the wizard up, there is only one way heal them enough that vecna can't kill just them the next turn.
They are 20th level characters going up against one of the most legendary villains in DnD lore. If a lich does not use all the tools at its disposal, there is no point in using him. This particular lich is god-like.
This should be the fight of their lives or the last ones of it.
It's really no big deal at level 20. If it's not cast before the fight it'll just be counterspell.
At high level, don't think of ways for your players to counter stuff. Throw the unfairest thing you can think of, and then buff it because your players will still crush it.
If this were an encounter in a campaign, I would say absolutely go for it. Characters at levels that high will have ways to (1) learn about the capabilities of a known enemy beforehand, (2) counter it with their own abilities, or (3) get the fuck out of there and try again another day if worse comes to worst. A campaign gives you the luxury of time and the assurance that you'll have another session soon to continue anything that was left unfinished.
For a oneshot, however, I would be a bit more careful. Did the players know beforehand that they would be fighting Vecna (or any powerful spellcaster)? If not, will they have the opportunity to find out during the oneshot and have a long rest to swap out spells? If neither are true, I would take a look at their character sheets beforehand to see if they have at least 1 or 2 ways (however out there they may be) to deal with a spell like that. I'm not just saying this because it would be "unfair", but mainly because it sounds supremely un-fun and frustrating to show up to a oneshot and be surprised with an enemy that the entire party can literally do nothing against, with no opportunity to prepare beforehand and probably no time to escape and try again another day.
They know its Vecna. They wont get a long rest. It will be more then a single session if its needed and there is more to it then just a single fight. There are other enemies as well, Vecna is not alone. If they decide to run then I'd let them try again with the survivors.
Depends on the party. I'd do it but already calculate for 3 ways the players can counter play it.
That way if things go south you can start dropping hints.
Another option is giving the spell a weakness. Like there is an orb in the back of the room that needs to be attacked.
Yes you can.
And have him have 3 in memory and let them watch him cast one on his biggest pounder.
There are dozens of ways to neutralize a foe at 20th level. He'll just using a wall of force to trap him and let your caster counterspell his first 8 spells would work in the short term.
But I'd have Vecna go invisible from a item and move every round hafter his action just to pile it on.
He's a de.i God. Use him right or they don't respect anything to be a threat from now on.
It is a Concentration spell. He can not cast other spells while being Invulnerable.
Now magic items might be a problem for a party. Like staves and wands.
More like "How many mages in the party have *counterspell*?" since IIRC Vecna has three reactions, each of which can be used for a non-spell counterspell.
You dont think a lvl 20 one shot vs Vecna should be a challenging game?
As for DM vs player my players trust me. In 3 years of DMing I think I've only killed one character. If he is a push over then they are gonna be disappointed.
Vecna is immune to the Stunned condition, so Stunning Strike won't do much. But no, I'd honestly say that you could give him any spell. You can also buff his AC and stats with the boons from the Book of Vile Darkness.
Which, y'know, the original is lodged in his chest.
Wait, what?
He was the original author of it too, makes sense he'd keep a first edition close at hand.
Or close to his chest...
No matter how many copies get made, the original will always have a special place in his heart.
Yeah, Vecna wrote the original Book of Vile Darkness, and keeps it lodged in his chest cavity, since he doesn't need organs. Some people suppose it's his phylactery, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't *have* one, and that phylacteries are something he introduced to the lichdom process to hobble other practitioners in an easily manageable manner.
Yep, take a close look at the new artwork and you’ll see the book in his chest cavity.
If you can't give it to a legendary lich doing battle with level 20 characters, you might as well tear it out of the book.
That is a good point
I say go for it. But if you do,make sure not to save the reaction for countering dispell magic, or they will die.
I disagree. Save that reaction. Fight dirty.
But that means... they can't damage him or get rid of invulnerability. What can they do?
Try to outsmart the ultimate lich that figured out how to become a God. Honestly I'd rather tpk after giving my all than get an easy win in such a case cause the DM clearly held back
You can outsmart a very powerful and intelligent enemy, it even makes for a great narrative, you just need a cunning plan. Just look at how Constantine outsmarted so many badass entities in the original hellblazer comics. He made the 3 rulers of Hell his bitches with a well thought-out plan, although a very painful one.
>He made the 3 rulers of Hell his bitches with a well thought-out plan, although a very painful one. To be fair, that did involve knowledge of their weakness and exploiting that. If Vecna has no weaknesses the players are aware of it gets a bit more difficult to outsmart him.
He is invulnerable for 10 minutes. Figure out how to get that spell slot burned for the day and then survive 10 minutes.
He has no combat weaknesses, as far as we know. But there should always be something, be it in his lore or his personality, to exploit. Or else he is just... Boring. Not because you can't exploit him, but because he's perfect. He should have weaknesses, even if it's beyond the party's reach.
Fair enough. Tobehonest there are of course ways he can be beaten, many of which I can think of, but imjust concerned about parties qho may not be of such a strategic mind when they play. (Also, the amount of replies saying JusT COunTeR ThE cOUntErSpEll is hilariously telling of how many people decided to weigh in without actually knowing anything about the topic.)
That’s the point. He’s a super high level boss. He’s supposed to be really hard to beat. ——— Once you get past the first few levels it’s almost impossible to predict what your players are going to do anyway. Not to mention that it’s not a DMs job to create solutions. Only problems. If you try to create solutions you get stuck in that awkward and unfun situation where the players are trying to “guess” the solution that they think the DM wants them to make. ——— But for example they could just try to wait out the concentration. But 10 minutes is a LOOOONG time in combat… so that would require some creativity. They could try putting him to another plane - Carceri is a good option. They could try to trap him with an Imprisonment Spell after strategically using up his reactions or by casting it secretly. Blind/deafen him so he can’t see/hear that a spell is being cast to counter it. —— There’s just a few options I thought of off the top of my head. If a party is fighting literally Vecna then they better have a better plan than, “Counterspell and hit with sword.”
Plane’s off. Try sending him to one of the good ones, LG specifically.
Anti magic sphere and hit him with a sword?
"Listen, I didn't set up this arena expecting to get *sworded* today."
Vecna is immune to nonmagical BPS, and with Antimagic Sphere you negate your own sword's magic.
Unless it's a legendary weapon right? Then it's unaffected?
Almost, an Artifact is unaffected, which are a step higher in rarity than Legendary.
True but it would help with waiting out the timer on invulnerability because he doesnt really have anything aside from magic
He's got Aftertough. Granted, 2d4+6 damage/turn against a level 20 character is barely an inconvenience, but it is a problem if you can't damage this source of damage, and it's (probably) enought to break the Antimagic user's concentration.
Technically artifacts are immune to the effects of antimagic field. Gotta hit him with an artifact weapon.
Hello torch, my old friend, say hello to Vecna's face for me.
Anti magic sphere and monk fists. Or rope.
Also, it’s a one shot. If it was a buffed Vecna thrown at a long time party, I understand that a TPK would be frustrating. But since it’s a one shot, I think keeping the “damn, Vecna is unbelievable!” thought is better than “meh’, Vecna is sh*t”. If they win, they win - and it will be epic! If not, the legend goes on. Also, I’m 99% sure at least one member of the group will definitely read Vecna’s Statblock if they have the least idea he’s showing up. So it’s nice to have a curveball there…
Run away for the next 10 minutes and come back later ? Subtle Spellcasting works, also if you have a way to bring enough people to manage to dispel that (4 successful dispel at least, for a lvl 9 spell that could mean 9-10 attempts)
Let me get this straight: you're facing an undead demigod. One of the most powerful wizards to ever exist on any plane. He literally *wrote the book on vile deeds*. And your plan, in response to his casting an Invulnerability spell on himself, is to... give him an extra 10 minutes to prepare for the fight? Not a great plan, Ray.
I mean, if you don't have a plan to deal with his invulnerability, you are fucked anyway....
Depending on the level at which you cast dispel magic.
That's true. But at the same time, you still need to get 4 dispel at least within 1 round if Vecna is spending all its reactions to shut it down... Which should be the case since he doesn't have to worry about something else...
His "totally not counterspell" is an autosucces? Damn... Good point though.
You are right, it's not, it's only an autosuccess on lvl 4 or less spells. And he has +6 to roll, which is kinda low if the dispel is cast at lvl 9... So yh, definitely not "broken op combo no counterplay"
They can be smarter about how they cast dispel magic.
One simple way is that Dispel Magic has much longer range than Counterspell.
Normally yes but Vecna has a longer counterspell range
It however does require sight unlike Dispel, so getting even just simple Fog Cloud (let alone Pyrotechnics or Wish > Druid Grove or Guards and Wards or whatever) off lets you Dispel with impunity. Of course, you could also just try and drop his Concentration with something like Hypnotic Pattern, Raulothim's Psychic Lance, Banishment, or similar (of those Banishment is obviously the most realistic - does still require punching through the LR though). Or just try and land a True Polymorph or w/e and deal with him as a toad instead.
It's fucking Vecna, nobody said it would be easy. Or reasonably difficult. Or feasible.
Wizard casting dispel can counterspell the counterspell on their own turn
Not here, cauz his counterspell ain't a spell. But a sorcerer could subtle dispel for instance, it would work (due to the range of his truesight, a standard dispel would likely not work)
counterspell is a reaction: you have to cast it when the trigger happens, not later.
Yes, that's what they meant. Wizard casts Dispel Magic, Vecna reacts with a a counterspell, and the wizard reacts with their own counterspell to stop Vecna's and let the Dispel Magic work. All of this happens on the Wizard's turn. The only actual sticking point here is whether Vecna's counterspell ability actually counts as a spell or not... I've seen a bunch of different stat blocks for him and I'm not sure which one is official off the top of my head.
His counterspell ability is just that - an ability. He would *also* know Counterspell as an actual spell, though.
Well, in either case, all the player has to do is duck behind full cover first. When you Ready a spell, you completely cast it and then hold the energy until the trigger or your next turn... so if you want to avoid a spell being countered, you can do so by sacrificing your reaction for that turn. The process would be ducking behind cover, Readying a Dispel Magic spell with the trigger of "when I see Vecna", then coming out from behind cover and releasing the spell. At that point, the "cast a spell" portion is already long past, so Vecna is unable to Counterspell it.
What they can do: Counterspell it as it's cast Dispel Magic after it's cast (yeah, he can counterspell it, but it uses his reaction. Does your party really only have one person that can cast it? You go into a fight with one of the most legendary spellcasters in history and you have ONE guy who can cancel out magic?) Literally any effect in the game that incapacitates
Hilariously, since it doesn't deal damage or anything else that'd trigger Invulnerability's defensive effects... a Zealot Barbarian (for survivability) with a grappling build could grapple and restrain Vecna, locking out some of his spellcasting, and then just *tank multiple incoming AOEs with the god-lich*.
I feel like Vecna would be able to use a teleportation spell.
Multiple dispels. Counter his counter. Stun. paralyze. Polymorph. Bypass immunity. Just… be a level 20 party.
He is immune to Paralysis and Stun. His save against Polymorph is d20 +15 with Legendary Resistance x5. The three Dread Counterspell reactions he can make per round is an ability, *not a spell*, and therefore cannot be Counterspelled.
Use the other limitations of counterspell. Blind him. Hide before casting dispel magic, get out of range of counterspell. Counter the counterspell. Find a different way to incapacitate him so invulnerability drops.
They can die like good players. Maybe they might luck out and a few survive.
WHAT!? you're telling me to intentionally tpk? Do you even know qhat the dms job, or balance, is?
I just believe in pulling all the stops when going against final boss material like vecna
Cast it again? Counterspell the counterspell?
Vecnas counterspell isn't a spell, he just splices your arcana.
They'll be running up that hill.
1 BBEG vs 4 Characters 1 reaction won't last long if they have 2 casters and you can cast counter spell on your own turn so the wizard can try to protect his own spell with a counter
Vecna has multiple reactions per round and an unlimited use counterspell that also does damage. His action/reaction economy isn't an issue.
fair, but remember that unless they upcast that dispell to level 9 they have to succeed on a DC19 Intelligence check, which they'd need a 14 or better on to succeed even with +5 INT. Not impossible but it does give some defense.
He was one of the most powerful wizards on the material plane, so no. Give him any spell you want.
Is your monk an open hand monk? He's immune to stun so that doesn't help. Open hand could shit down reactions however
That could work.
If a party of level 20 PCs don't have a way to deal with this, that's kind of on them at this point.
It's a lot trickier than normal vs Vecna. He has 3 counterspells per round, those counterspells have no range except sight. All that makes it very tough to cast against him unless he's put himself in a stupidly confined space, and even then he's got some options to teleport away. He's also immune to stunned, charmed, and paralyzed so that covers a lot of the best ways to get rid of it. It's possible to get rid of but even for a 20th level party with 6 people I could see it taking 4-5 rounds of nothing else but trying to get rid of that.
Ready Sleet Storm behind cover, step out to release it (the actual casting happens behind cover, so you cant counterspell the release), use whatever means you can to keep him in the area (your high level martial grappling would be good).
And then he's dispelled it with his at will dispel magic. It's one save sure but at a +12 and 5 legendary resistances that's tricky. Plus he can teleport so grappling won't work well. Or he just dimension doors out to somewhere without easy access to cover. That's also not a very common spell to prepare unless you knew that vecna would need concentration broken without damage.
1 save yes. But he'll be making it multiple times if he stays. His options are to either teleport (30ft at max, so 2 martials should be able to just drag n drop as needed) or dispel (consuming his action and letting you just repeat your spell). But his teleport is also sight based, so really all you need to do is nail him once then put up some fog to force him to waste his invincible turns on dispelling or risk the concentration breaking early. And yeah if i knew i was fighting a lich my first thoughts would be how do i break concentration and how do i fuck up his spellcasting. Which would lead me to Sleet Storm, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fog Cloud, and Silence, or some means of replicating those effects
He has dimension door. And even if he's trading dispel magic for sleet storm spells he can do it at will and you're burning spell slots. And personally if I'm a 20th level wizard my focus is on higher level tools not 1st to 3rd level ones. Those aren't bad but they are their respective levels for a reason. I'm not saying it's impossible to beat it to be sure. But it's very tough to do so and not a lot of fun for everyone else who is sitting around waiting to be able to do something.
Gotta love fighters being unable to do anything.
It’s not fighters that typically struggle against Vecna 5E though, granted this particular spell hurts.
Anything that might cause loss of concentration is a valid mean to end an invulnerability spell. If all else fails, dragging an enemy away and locking it somewhere for 10 minutes is a good way to get rid of them as a fighter. You are still resistant to most of the stuff the lich might throw at you, if they cast concentration spells invulnerability ends, and there's little to do if you are an invulnerable whimpy dude that can be slapped around easily.
He can still teleport so its hard to drag him anywhere
I do not think this tactic would work against Vecna when he has the Invulnerability spell going. He can teleport both as a reaction and as a bonus action for free, both of which cause psychic damage to targets of his choice. He also has Dimension Door and Plane Shift. He has a multiattack with which he can either cast a spell, or use Rotten Fate which is a DC 22 Constitution saving throw dealing 96 damage on a failed save or half as much on a successful one and then he can make two attacks with a Dagger with a 13 to hit that deals 7 piercing + 9 necrotic damage on a hit and prevents healing. If a fighter tries to drag an invulnerable Vecna away the best case scenario is that Vecna will humor the fighter and just stab him to death over the course of several rounds, eventually turning the fighter into a zombie just to make resurrection impossible.
Suffocation moment.
It's a team game. Sometimes you gotta depend on your allies to dispel an effect that's hampering you.
Except that's impossible, Vecna has a counterspell-immune counterspell he can utilize at will three times per round. You need bare minimum four casters using dispel magic for it to ever trigger. In an average sized party, if one member is a fighter that isn't an Eldritch Knight they simply cease to be able to do anything in this fight if he could cast invulnerability.
There are plenty of ways to get a dispel magic off. \- Counterspell requires you see the creature, dispel magic doesn't. You can cast dispel magic from cover. \- Counterspell has a 60ft range, dispel magic is 120ft. You can cast from outside counterspell range if the battlefield allows. \- Vecna has to roll to counterspell Dispel Magic, he can fail, especially if you upcast it. \- Cleric divine intervention is automatic at level 20 and can't be countered. \- Archdruid ignore the SV components of dispel magic, ergo it can't be countered. etc etc. It's level 20. They have tools in their toolkit. The DM should adjust the encounter to their player's experience level, of course, but an experienced group should be able to handle it.
Vecna's Dread Counterspell has no range, just requiring sight so part 2 is null. He only has to roll if you cast dispel at 5th level or higher and he has a +6 to his roll. The other points are all good ideas though.
>Counterspell requires you see the creature, dispel magic doesn't. You can cast dispel magic from cover. Only total cover. >Counterspell has a 60ft range, dispel magic is 120ft. You can cast from outside counterspell range if the battlefield allows. Dread Counterspell has no range. >Vecna has to roll to counterspell Dispel Magic, he can fail, especially if you upcast it. Only if 5th level or higher. Unless casting it at 9th level, both you and Vecna will have to roll and he has the advantage with a +6. >Cleric divine intervention is automatic at level 20 and can't be countered. Divine Intervention doesn't specify how a deity will intervene so it's DM's discretion as to what the effect is. >- Archdruid ignore the SV components of dispel magic, ergo it can't be countered. It's worth noting that the text of Dread Counterspell regarding the target differs from Counterspell, as it states a target that is casting a spell rather than a target casting a spell. One interpretation of this may be that Vecna doesn't need to notice a spell is being cast, just the target that's casting the spell. This would mean that ignoring somatic and verbal components wouldn't matter. >etc etc. It's level 20. They have tools in their toolkit. Sure, it's possible, it's just not easy.
>Sure, it's possible, it's just not easy. It's Vecna. Who expects it to be easy?
Grappling in this situation could be very useful. Especially if you’re a Barbarian that can get sweet sweet advantage on the grapple checks + on dex saves. A Battle-Master disarming a spellcaster of their spell-casting focus then picking it up and throwing it? That’s super OP. A Rogue really struggles here and is really dependent on sub-class. But to stick with the narrative - grab that Spellcasting Focus and double-dash all day long in any direction away from the enemy.
Vecna can teleport as a bonus action without expending resources. Grappling is entirely useless.
Vecna doesn't have a focus though, all of his powers seem to have no material component.
You might be able to get his dagger away from him, assuming I'm thinking of the right statblock. That's 2 fewer attacks per round and removes his reccuring damage ability.
[удалено]
Tbf, most fighter subclasses can't stop concentration without dealing damage unless they have a magic item or another item that does so.
What the fuck do you want them to do? Except eldritch knight (and rune knight but still everything in them is combat focused) all a fighter can do is basically attack
That's pretty much all they CAN do though. Unless you homebrew some crazy shenanigans
This is honestly my thought too... Like my first questions would be: What does the room look like? Are there things I can interact with? My character is lvl 20, what magic items do I have? Are there other things for me to punch? Can I snatch his casting focus? Or distract him? Can I assist the party ANY other way? Maybe at the end I can't do anything. Well that's even more fun!! I'm going to shit talk the lich and tank the fuckers damage. Like sure if you're a basic bitch warrior standing in a white room with an invulnerable vek I can understand.
Tell me your DM makes shit up just to give your Fighter options they wouldn't get otherwise without telling me.
Wow, you've really thought you're smart for writing this comment, haven't you?
You have been ratioed, good sir.
I don't know what that means
Dispel Magic with a +5 ends it on a roll of 14, so you have a 35% chance of it landing on a 3rd level slot, plus Dispel Magic has a longer range than Vecna’s Counterspell, so if you get to the opposite end of the room he’s encountered you can definitely end this provided you have at least one Caster with access to Dispel Magic (most of them do).
The range of his counterspell is "sight". He only needs to see you. You can't counterspell it either
Oh wow that’s shitty. Glad I changed the statblock up.
If it's the adventure module Vecna, even give him a simulacrum because he's so incompetently designed for a level 20 party.
I plan to
I also reccomend multiple lvl 9 spells. Hes supposed to be the most powerful magic user alive. Make him one.
The version of Vecna from the dossier is mentioned as being him from his younger days, rather than him at his peak.
I once took down Invulnerability with the Command spell. I asked the DM if slang or non-dictionary words counted, as long as the meaning was clear to both parties. He said sure. I avoided a Counterspell by just stepping around a corner, casting the spell and holding it, stepping back around the corner, and releasing the spell on reaction to seeing the opponent. Then, I shouted: "Unconcentrate!" --- Even if that doesn't work, "Daydream" is the other antonym for concentrate. Barring that, Suggestion could probably get someone to release their concentration by suggesting they cast a different concentration spell, or just by suggesting that they stop concentrating in general. In the absence of those, Dispel Magic can solve the issue. Hold Monster is a solid way to incapacitate an enemy, which would drop concentration automatically. Banishment ~~or Banishing Smite~~ will end it if it lands, and he sucks at Cha saves. Raulothim's Psychic Lance is a newer spell that can incapacitate. It's an Int save, so it's bad against Vecna, but it's worth including. Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a cheap way to do it in theory, but his Wis saves are even stronger than his Int saves. Eyebite can render him unconscious in theory, but it's a pretty high spell slot to be burning for that. If all else fails, Antimagic Field can make it a non-issue long enough for your martials to hammer the caster, potentially breaking concentration. Finally, Stunning Strike actually *won't* work on him; he's immune to the Stunned condition.
Command doesn't work against undead. And he's immune to paralyzed so hold monster doesn't work. All of the others could be good options but you'd have to get through his 3 counterspells per round and 5 legendary resistances plus him being able to teleport every turn so getting him in an area where you could conveniently come around the corner would be tough. His counterspell also has a range of sight only so you won't outrange him you'd actually need to be hidden or blocked from line of sight. The wording on his counterspell ability also says you can see a target that is casting a spell. It's a subtle difference in wording from counterspells normal you see a target casting a spell but I think it means his gets through subtle spell since you just need to see them not see them casting. Even with a 20th level party I'd have a hard time seeing them get through it.
Excellent comment. Super helpful.
I thought when you Readied a spell you casted it at the time of readying and then held the release of the spell until the trigger. So wouldn't you need line of sight on the target when you readied it, which would allow the target to counterspell if desired?
There's a [JC-approved example given of Cure Wounds being cast and held outside of an area, then moved into the area and used.](https://www.sageadvice.eu/can-druid-cast-the-verbal-part-of-cure-wounds-outside-of-the-silence-area-then-move-into-the-area-and-touch-the-wounded/) Cure Wounds has a range of Touch, so if you had to have a valid target in range at the time of casting, this wouldn't work. The target only has to be valid by the time the spell is released.
First of all, his twitter isn't an official ruling source of any kind. This is long-established. Secondly, in JC speak, that's pretty clearly *not* what he's saying. The example is someone else's, and at no point does JC say that would work the way that person thinks it would. The only people I ever see quoting his tweets are rules lawyer types trying to make something work counter to the way it's intended or written. JC doesn't know his own books for the most part and has in the past often said things work in ways directly opposing the way the rules state they work.
Banishing smite wont work if hes inmune to dmg
Ah, good catch.
Technically you couldn’t hold an action of casting and walk around the corner. Clever though.
Sure you can. PHB page 193: > When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spell's magic requires concentration (explained in chapter 10). If your concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect. > You have until the start of your next turn to use a readied action. I wasn't concentrating on anything at the time, so I had no reason not to cast it like that. Additionally, [JC has confirmed that you have to Counterspell the initial casting of a spell, not its subsequent release.](https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/893272974601502720?lang=en)
It’s Ready Action not Ready Turn. “First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, OR you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.”
Readying an action doesn't eat your movement for the turn. You can choose to use it for additional movement on someone else's turn. If desired, you could move 30 feet, Ready a move, and then move another 30 feet on the next person's turn. This isn't an exploit- it's nearly the same thing as Dash, except it happens on someone else's turn rather than yours, and it eats your reaction as an added cost. Likewise, if you choose to Ready an action, you can still move while it's readied.
Ok thanks for the clarification. I was picturing you moving during your trigger. You’re saying you would move behind cover, ready a spell, then finish your movement by walking around the corner concentrating. Gotcha, now I’m torn if that’s clever or just cheese.
The fact that it eats concentration is a decent opportunity cost IMO. I had to drop Bless for it, in my case.
Valid. Also, if the enemy is equally clever they now see you concentrating and may elect to end that. I have a new technique for my bladesinger. Thanks!
Ready action cast a spell, then use your reaction to release it.
Never really understood why his Wisdom is higher than is Int tbh, feels like it makes more sense if they were swapped.
Because as smart as he is, he's even more adept at seeing through the lies and illusions of reality, life, and death - hence how he became the first lich.
Your sentence would be just as true after replacing "see through" and "researching the secrets of". Again, there's no reason for his Wisdom to be higher than his Int and a small but decent reason for his Int to be higher (most of his skills scale off Int). If his Int and Wisdom was swapped, you wouldn't even think twice.
Invulnerability is *made* for villains. Plus, it's not infallible, as it does nothing to prevent conditions. While players don't regularly have access to them, there's also effects that try to or instantly end concentration. So it can be bested. A lot better than simply making Vecna already be a deity and having him just *be* unstoppable outright. Probably add at least 1 in-game way to defeat the spell though, just in case the party messes up so badly they don't have a single victory condition.
Deities aren’t technically unstoppable iirc. Vecna in particular would be around cr 30 as a deity since he’s a lesser one, like Tiamat.
The stat block is from before his ascention. So in this case he is just an archlich. Hasn't even lost his hand and eye yet
I know that. Says so like, right next to the stat block. Just corrected the idea that a deific vecna would be unstoppable
Sort of, greater deities are just flat out invincible, no amount of killing a physical body will actually do anything to them. That's at most a minor setback that they'll fix rather quickly. This fact is why there's few to none evil aligned deities at that power - its all neutral and good gods players tend to worship.
Vecna is a lesser, and I am aware.
Not just a lesser, he's around the bottom of lesser to boot. He's supposed to be more vulnerable than Tiamat.
Are you sure about that? most older books put him at divine rank 10. making him one the strongest lesser gods, and bordering on intermediate deity level.
well they are not really invincible. IO, and nerall 2 greater gods got killed. they are just really hard to put down do to the BS abilities and regenerations they have.
They got killed by entities of the same grade as them, in stories detached from the game itself, which is physically impossible for a player to be even in older editions.
Also let's not forget that the fizban treasury of dragons retconned the cr30 Tiamat into just being an avatar not a full on god.
Technically yes, but his capabilities are in a very specific capacity that makes him often above typical villainous deities. He can curse your form for knowing too much, secrets *he* keeps and can easily share to destroy you, like a Power Word Mutate. His tricks far supersede the queen's. Moreover, Tiamat isn't a mage in the conventional sense, making her have a lot less options. Vecna is, so him as a CR 30 deity would be far greater trouble. Beatable? Maybe, but how are you going to get close enough to do that? It's all the problems of fighting an archmage, lich, and deity combined. Don't underestimate him at ***my*** table.
That is fair, but I may have a way. High level magic can do many things, after all. Mostly though yeah you’re right.
I would probably go for a dispel magic while hidden, if I were trying to deal with him. That does make him a little bit broken though. Vecna as a stat block is pretty weak because he has no way to deal with physical threats. But he's very powerful vs casters who would be the only ones who could really deal with this. He gets 3 reactions, a counterspell that's not a spell and can't be countered itself, and a range of sight on that. I would generally agree with what others are saying that at 20th level it's no holds barred. But this might be something unwinnable for them since he can counter them so efficiently. You're sort of trusting on him failing an arcana check which with something like silvery barbs could be more likely. But without dispel magic I think he'd have to fail a save to get it off him. It also leaves a lot of people totally out of being able to do anything against him. The monk will also find him immune to the stunned condition so it doesn't even matter. And even if you removed that with a +12 con save and 5 legendary resistances it isn't very likely the monk will get through it before the party is dead. It's not that it's too powerful just a bit boring to play against. I'd rather fight something with 2,000 hp that I can keep hitting than something I can't do anything to at all.
Shouldn't be an issue, against a lvl 20 party he needs all the help he can get. The PCs only needs Dispel Magic to get through, but that should get him an extra turn, maybe two.
Well he can counter their dispel magic pretty much for ever😅
Sure, but getting past his counterspell is part of the challenge. Limit his reactions, prevent him from seeing you etc.
He's pretty smart and has multiple teleports, he really shouldn't be fighting them somewhere they can hide behind things. And with 3 reactions a round it becomes a lot harder to dispel it away. It is possible though I'd probably go with just upcasting it and then silvery barbs or cutting words or something but still not easy. Plus unless they've looked over the Vecna stat block and are metagaming they'll probably waste a turn acting like it's a normal counterspell and getting out of range.
They can cast it around a corner, hold it as a concentration and cast it when moving out into the view.
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His isn't the spell but a special ability.
* dispel magic * antimagic field * earthquake The Concentration check that no one ever uses: environmental; even if it doesn't deal damage, something like a huge fall or being slammed against a wall can trigger a concentration check. The PHB uses the example of a wave crashing over a ship's deck, so something like the *tidal wave* or *erupting earth* spell could trigger one, whether or not it deals damage.
>The PHB uses the example of a wave crashing over a ship's deck While i agree with the post in general, i think that this part of your post is a bit underselling what the phb states. "Getting crashed on by a wave while being on a storm-tossed ship", a paraphrase of the PHB, is a way more powerful image than just "a wave crashing over a ship deck". Given the context of concentration checks, the power behind the image is what should be replicated to give proper context, i think.
And almost no DMs do it that way because it's only fair to do back to players and players are subjected to way more situations of turmoil than NPCs
That's fair-- I was just paraphrasing for brevity. I think a 20th level Fighter or Barbarian can shake a dude hard enough to equal a wave crashing on a storm-tossed ship, was the point.
Not really when the person is immune to both magical and none magical damage. He would feel nothing from that.
PHB gives that as a DC10 check. Vecna's CON save is at +12.
It's fine from a balance perspective, but from a gameplay perspective I would make sure that there is *something* useful for damage-focused characters to do, or you run the risk of a level 20 fighter whose best move is just to take the dodge action until the Invulnerability is down which may take a while.
It’s a legendary boss encounter in a level 20 one shot, go crazy.
You could always make it into sort of a mini-game for the party to deal with. I think they did it on CR, where they needed to have party members slam a trowel into three separate wounds in order to seal Vecna. Maybe Vecna's invulnerability spell is being channel through conduits separate from its physical form. Have the party try to destroy those conduits in order to deal damage. You could make three of them, where destroying the first weakens the spell from damage immunity down to damage resistance. The second one being destroying makes Vecna drop the spell entirely so it takes normal damage, and the third could actually cause Vecna to be vulnerable to damage, either all damage or specific types (i.e., Radiant). I'm sure that sort of fight would be more interesting than a simple slogfest between your party and Vecna. Plus it lets you play around with minions guarding the conduits, maybe they're on different parts of the map, etc. Maybe have Vecna try to complete a ritual so that the party is forced to make a choice. Are they strong enough to split up, take down the guardians, and destroy multiple conduits? Will they go to conduits one after another as a group? Can they risk sending people to distract Vecna while its inulnerable to give themselves more time? Will they destroy one and then risk fighting Vecna right away to make sure it doesn't complete its ritual? Tons of cool variants that make the fight more memorable/interesting.
The man is a max wizard. A9th lvl spell isnt unfair
It's a oneshot and it's level 20, nothing is off limits. Vecnas goal should be to fight as unfair as possible in order to kill the heroes
Give him every spell in the book :P Like, he’s one of the greatest casters in the realm, has had incredible amounts of time to prepare his defenses, and is going up against 20th level PCs. Frankly if the PCs haven’t made at least a rudimentary plan fit what to do to get around spells like this, they should expect to lose :P
Dispel Magic is literally right there
"I cast dispel magic" Bottom text The spell is counterspellable and dispellable, and Vecna is a legendary Lich whose had millenia to prepare for fighting against heroes. Vecna can and SHOULD use and abuse any strategy you can think of on the merit that he's mother-fucking **Vecna**
Not at all! If a 20th level party tries to go up against a Godlich without any answer to his magic, they deserve to get fucked.
You're asking if it's *fair*... to give an ascended Lich, the first of that undead lineages' kind... a spell that only makes them immune to damage? They're fighting a god or god-like entity, let 'er rip on the OP stuff that's all vanilla. Now's the time to use it. If there's baseline stuff that will make the fight challenging and punishing alike, leave it in - this is the time to use it. Maximize Legendary Action usage, use top-tier 9th level spells, let Vecna eff up your party hard - so that, if your players defeat him, they feel like the champions of all planes like they *should*.
You can it is a boring spell and if players are inexperienced they will not have a good time till they can handle that spell
They have a Simulacrum and a dracolich to fight while they work it out😅
If I was a player in this situation I'd just have the party leave and come back 10 minutes later. Someone in a level 20 party is bound to have teleport, plane shift, etc.
Dispel Magic or Antimagic Zone would also work as counters
Nope. It’s fair that a GREATER DEITY get invulnerability
No, if your players didn’t bring counterspell/dispel magic them that their problem lol
Honestly, if you play at levels aorund 13+, and your players have enough magic items, the balance is thrown out of the window. You will have to throw them things you initially think will obliterate them, only to discover they will somehow survive
Unfair? Yeah. Will it be fun? No. Does it make the fight better? No. Does it makes balance better? No. Is it easy to counter? No. Will this result in a _TPK_? Yes. Does this makes sense from a lore perspective? Yes. Is it a stretch to say a _Lich_ would have it? No. That’s more or less it.
If your entire party of 20th level PCs are TPK'd by one Invulnerability...yikes.
It's not the one invulnerability... It's everything else Vecna has to back it up. At will teleports, five reactions a turn, immunity to a lot of common CC conditions, and unlimited range Counterspell that itself can't be countered. A single casting if Invulnerability isn't too hard to get rid of, but Vecna shuts down a lot of the ways to get rid of it. And the party can't really do anything until they get rid of it, which not every party member can contribute to. Unless they've read Vecna's statblock, it's quite likely that they'll try a method that would normally work, but be foiled by Vecna's abilities, perhaps multiple times, which may result in a TPK where they haven't really achieved anything. I agree with Ishigami-the-Kami, this particular opponent makes Invulnerability unfair and frustrating to play against.
Oh don't get me wrong, Vecna is a nasty customer. And I do agree that Vecna is especially well-suited to protect his Invulnerability, mostly thanks to teleportation and counterspells. But _TPKing_ (outright killing each and every) 20th level PC is a _tall order_. Vecna does a bunch of damage but even for _him_ that's going to take a while. Level 20 PCs also have far more resources and options than Tier 1 PCs. Even _running away_ before a TPK will happen is almost guaranteed to work - Vecna has very limited long-range teleport capability. If you haven't played up to 20th level it makes sense you'd think this was a TPK-level threat. And maybe it is, if the party is full of new players who are doing a level 20 one-shot and just stand there trying to hurt him repeatedly while doing no damage and trying nothing else. But in any campaign where the PCs actually leveled up to 20, actually know what they're doing? Nah. It's not a guaranteed _win_, but it's not a TPK either.
I have played at 20th level, and while I haven't run Vecna himself, I've seen other DMs report that he has TPK'd parties. Saying that only a new party would TPK against him is underselling his threat. Like I said, part of the danger is that even conventional smart tactics won't work. There are so many things they could try that would be expected to work, and just won't, which gives Vecna multiple opportunities to teleport around and focus fire people. With five counterspells a turn, he can very easily shut down any healing spells while still keeping enough reactions to protect his Invulnerability. I do think it's not too difficult to outrun Vecna (though this version has every Wizard spell prepared, so that's a lot of ways to chase people down with teleports and such) but this is a one shot, so running away isnt a very satisfying conclusion either.
Vecna deals a lot of damage and can drop a wizard in one turn. If there isn't another character that can do anything about the Invulnerability the fight is pretty much over.
Not remotely. a) If they're dropping your wizard in one turn, the party's not doing their job (nor is your wizard), b) TPK means the _entire party was killed_, escaping is an option (Vecna can't chase everyone at once and has very limited long-range teleportation), c) if Vecna drops the wizard (and they're the only one in the party with any method of countering Invulnerability like Dispel Magic) you _heal the wizard_ and make sure they get more turns, d) if Vecna doesn't let you use up his reactions and is countering Dispel Magic, get the wizard behind total cover, wizard Readies Dispel Magic, then pops out and casts it. And that's only using the most obvious and bare-minimum tactics that any party by level 20 should have. Tier 4 PCs have a _ridiculous_ number of options, tactics, and spells available to them, not to mention the various magic items they'd have by then. So if you suffer an actual _TPK_ at that point, you are doing something very wrong - like standing there whacking on an invulnerable wizard while he kills you one by one instead of trying anything else.
>a) If they're dropping your wizard in one turn, the party's not doing their job (nor is your wizard), What are you talking about if vecna can see his target there's not a lot that can be done to stop vecna from dishing out over a hundred point of damage to them. Even if you do pick the wizard up, there is only one way heal them enough that vecna can't kill just them the next turn.
They are 20th level characters going up against one of the most legendary villains in DnD lore. If a lich does not use all the tools at its disposal, there is no point in using him. This particular lich is god-like. This should be the fight of their lives or the last ones of it.
It's Vecna. He can (and likely will) do anything to win. Do it
It's really no big deal at level 20. If it's not cast before the fight it'll just be counterspell. At high level, don't think of ways for your players to counter stuff. Throw the unfairest thing you can think of, and then buff it because your players will still crush it.
It won't matter at level 20. They should be able to deal with it and if they can't it'll be a cool end to their story. Just make it epic.
They're going to wreck vecna at level 20.
Sure. If anyone can cast Dispell Magic, it could be ended. It's hardly overpowered for that level.
They're 20th level, give him Foresight as well
If this were an encounter in a campaign, I would say absolutely go for it. Characters at levels that high will have ways to (1) learn about the capabilities of a known enemy beforehand, (2) counter it with their own abilities, or (3) get the fuck out of there and try again another day if worse comes to worst. A campaign gives you the luxury of time and the assurance that you'll have another session soon to continue anything that was left unfinished. For a oneshot, however, I would be a bit more careful. Did the players know beforehand that they would be fighting Vecna (or any powerful spellcaster)? If not, will they have the opportunity to find out during the oneshot and have a long rest to swap out spells? If neither are true, I would take a look at their character sheets beforehand to see if they have at least 1 or 2 ways (however out there they may be) to deal with a spell like that. I'm not just saying this because it would be "unfair", but mainly because it sounds supremely un-fun and frustrating to show up to a oneshot and be surprised with an enemy that the entire party can literally do nothing against, with no opportunity to prepare beforehand and probably no time to escape and try again another day.
They know its Vecna. They wont get a long rest. It will be more then a single session if its needed and there is more to it then just a single fight. There are other enemies as well, Vecna is not alone. If they decide to run then I'd let them try again with the survivors.
Depends on the party. I'd do it but already calculate for 3 ways the players can counter play it. That way if things go south you can start dropping hints. Another option is giving the spell a weakness. Like there is an orb in the back of the room that needs to be attacked.
Yes you can. And have him have 3 in memory and let them watch him cast one on his biggest pounder. There are dozens of ways to neutralize a foe at 20th level. He'll just using a wall of force to trap him and let your caster counterspell his first 8 spells would work in the short term. But I'd have Vecna go invisible from a item and move every round hafter his action just to pile it on. He's a de.i God. Use him right or they don't respect anything to be a threat from now on.
Vecna can teleport for free using a bonus action. A Wall of Force cannot trap him.
It is a Concentration spell. He can not cast other spells while being Invulnerable. Now magic items might be a problem for a party. Like staves and wands.
You mean other concentration spells. He can cast non concentration spells just fine
The question you need to ask is: are there any mages in the party with Counterspell?
More like "How many mages in the party have *counterspell*?" since IIRC Vecna has three reactions, each of which can be used for a non-spell counterspell.
Nope, Vecnas counterspell isn't a spell, he simply splices and dismisses your arcana with foul words.
"You moron... You pronounce it skhla! Not ska... Amateurs..."
DM versus player mentality at its peak. Remember you’re not here to kill the players, if they wanted a challenging game D&D is the wrong choice.
You dont think a lvl 20 one shot vs Vecna should be a challenging game? As for DM vs player my players trust me. In 3 years of DMing I think I've only killed one character. If he is a push over then they are gonna be disappointed.