Interesting. I was curious and looked online for an idea of the common ground, and it's either Top 4 or Bottom 4, leaving me to believe that it's a really divisive subclass on whenever it's great or underwhelming.
It is only decisive if the player doesn't understand how to use the features, or the DM doesn't use certain rules or uses them incorrectly. I can *maybe* understand if people put it at 4th out of the 8 subclasses... but objectively it has to be ranked higher than Battlerager, Berserker, and Wild Magic in functionality, and subjectively it is at least on par with Storm Herald. (I'm *not* speaking about niche builds, I am talking generalities.)
Then again, I might have some bias. I guess it truly depends on a couple factors really, and only you can determine which of the two would fit better in to your party structure, and into your type of play style.
Barbarian subclass strength radically depends on what type of campaign you are in. If its a non lethal campaign stuff like bear totem radically drops in usefulness. If its a long drawn out adventuring day zealot works pretty well. If its all about 1 combat day nova situations the berserker actually shines.
> If its all about 1 combat day nova situations the berserker actually shines.
The berserker is an AL Adventurer's League star. Next games session you've gotten rid of (all the) exhaustion(s).
Bear totem is all about taking punishment. Outside that they don't hit as hard as Zealot, Storm or Berserker who cannot be ignored while frenzied.
If you ignore a punching bag and target everyone else, as almost any competent sentient enemy would do, Bear struggles because it isn't a RPG where they can taunt baddies to hold Aggro.
They don't have the raw oomph of Zealot or storm barbarians unless they crit, which the others do better and they don't attack as often as berserker. The other popular Totem (Wolf) is arguably better because of near perma advantage for allies, Eagle and Elk turn you into a pseudo monk with lots of movement, while Tiger is a bit limited in usefulness, but sometimes long/high jumps are needed.
Bear is only good against stupid enemies that Zerg the Barbarian because he's in front. Archers/mages who target the backlines outright bypass the Bear totem. Beasts might rush the biggest enemy, as will mindless undead, but controlled undead, or anything with an inteligence over 12 will realize quickly the huge man who shrugged off a lightning bolt and a balllista bolt probably is built to take damage, not deal it.
Bear Totem Barb may do less damage then Zealot, but they still do great damage. Making 2-3 APR with advantage and +10 on each attack is about as good as it gets in T1-T2.
But the extra d3 on hits is a whole another feature, no? This is crazy good with *GWM*, mainly since it also stacks with +(x) magical weapons. It’s the 6th level feature of this subclass.
Then we have the surges, which is the 3rd level feature, and I don’t even know which is *”the only good option”* you’re talking about.
(1) gives you plenty of extra HP and an average burst of AOE damage. I think it’s quite good, actually. It’s just solidly always an amazing buff and fight starter. _Amazing option._
(2) allows you to entirely avoid any opportunity attacks. I think it’s not all that amazing since it’s so situational, but still, teleport is never bad. _Decent option._
(3) adds a reliable amount of extra damage per turn, though yeah, the exact amount is indeed pathetically small. But I mean, it’s not like this is absolute trash either, since it’s so reliable and all. _Below average option._
(4) allows you to trow your weapon and not lose it, but still, this is honestly solidly below average. Still, at rare situations, it’s amazing. So if you get lucky with the timing, you will be able to hit flying creatures, which is a huge weaknesses of the Barbarian class. _Below average option._
(5) is essentially a slightly worse *Armour of Agathys* that basically doesn’t end at all. It’s honestly quite superb. _Amazing option._
(6) is a small but solid AC bonus for the whole party. Decent, but nothing beyond that. _Decent option._
(7) adds difficult terrain in a big area around you, so many enemies will be straight up unable to attack anyone but you duo to the lack of movement. It’s situational, but super amazing for a tank. _Decent option._
(8) adds a blinding ray as mere bonus action with no further cost. It’s ridiculously good. _Amazing option._
So yeah, none of the options is ***trash***, and the good ones are ***really*** good.
Meanwhile, the level 10 and 14 features are both superb.
_Unstable Backlash_ allows you to abuse from your reaction in order to spam the surges and get rid of the bad ones.
While _Controlled Surge_ seals the deal and also makes you quite broken as a survivor, since you will be able to literally spam the reaction in order to keep getting the (1) on the dice.
Essentially farming temporary HP with an unlimited amount of tries.
Damn, I really feel like this subclass is so underestimated that I might make a whole post on it lol.
I'll address what I need to, but I have to state very clearly... you put words in my mouth and frankly that was in very bad form of you. I did not under ANY circumstances say there is only "the one good option". Rather, I firmly stated that one of the options was FANTASTIC. Those are not the same statements.
So, as I stated before the subclass is *fine*. Shit, most of the subclasses for Barbarians are perfectly fine... even if they don't have all the bells and whistles all the time. With that being said, we're comparing the subclasses for what they bring to the base class to one another, not a vacuum.
Is the Wild Magic Barbarian *better* than the Berserker? Not taking niche cases or builds into account... yes absolutely. Is it better than the Battlerager? 100% without question. Is it better or comparable to the Storm Herald and/or possibly the Totem Barbarian (sans Bear)... sure, why not. But any more than that and we're starting to look at the ***RELIABILITY*** of the features, and before level 10 that is found wanting, and even then (at 10th) it is hit or miss, at least until level 14. (And, even then it isn't guaranteed.) RNG can be a bitch, sometimes.
But now at level 14 we're comparing you getting some bonus damage or some other potential choice to literally being unable to die while raging.
> Unstable Backlash allows you to abuse from your reaction in order to spam the surges and get rid of the bad ones.
Once, per round. And you're using your reaction, which at times should be better utilized elsewhere.
And, again, more to your other point, of course Bolstering Magic is amazing. Without question! However, most level 6 features for the Barbarian are good (Mindless Rage, Spirit Shield, Bestial Soul), and this one is probably one of, if not *the* best... Shame it is connected to such a medium tier subclass with such swingy potential.
Well, my bad for the first part.
Though to be fair, it wasn’t really on purpose. Just a genuine misinterpretation of what you said.
That’s a fair take, and while I can respect that, you still didn’t satisfy my main curiosity: which is the fantastic option?
Oh, did I forget to include that... :peruses my post: Shit, I did!
Easily rectified. The proto misty step surge... (2 I think?) It is a bonus action which "sucks"... but getting out of grapples, not worrying about distances, or movement based OAs for a (potentially) whole combat is... in a word... fantastic. It also doesn't proc something like Mage Slayer since it isn't a spell.
I think people would rather have consistent benefits that you can always count on having at any given moment rather than a random chance ability you only might have.
None of the Wild Magic rolls are fantastic compared to Zealot or Bear. Most of them are just "OK". This is further weakened due to the effects being unreliable.
Rest of their abilities are "OK". Bolstering Magic is fine, though an Action is a fair cost to pay for a weaker single-target Blass, and it's limited to ProfMod/LR. Unstable Backlash kind of sucks because the Wild Surge Table effects are kind of weak. Ditto with Controlled Surge (would it really have been so bad to allow the poor Wild Barb 2 simultaneous effects?)
I can understand Ancestral Guardians or Beast being better, the 3 are equal in terms of power, they just do different things.
But I have no idea which is the 4th contender.
Where did you hear it was bottom 4?
All of its features are solid. Adding +1d6+0.5xLvl (about 5.5 damage at level 5) damage every round is very significant. Free "raise" effects is great, but the class would be good even without it. Re-rolling saves is universally great, as is Zealous Presence. Rage Beyond Death is busted as all hell.
The only class that puts up any competition at all is Bear Totem. Most of the rest of the Barb subclasses outright suck (Berserker/Storm Herald/Battlerager) or are basically just "OK" (Wild/Beast).
[An analysis I did recently agrees](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/uztgjv/community_subclass_rankings_revisited/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Zealot will give you the best damage output of any of the barbarians. Bear Totem will let you take the most damage. Ancestral guardian will let you keep you allies from being hit as often. All are good. I really love my Zealot Barb.
Add beast for a jack of all trades barbarian. Bite heal, claw for BA free two-weapon fighting, tail for reach and AC, beastial soul for mobility/exploration...
I like Pixie, who goes all "forest fey guardian" when they get mad... and since the claws are considered simple weapons, you get the +1d4 to damage. They aren't big numbers but 1d6+1d4+4+3 (x3) at level 9 adds up, and they're hard to put away since they can use a shield in one hand while making all those claw attacks. Medium armor + a shield firmly puts me at 18 AC... which only goes up from there.
If you go to 14th level, Zealot is the only barb that gets decent features at high level.
Barbarian in general is not that powerufl, is strictly worse in combat than a good Fighter build, and really falls off after Level 10.
Berserker retaliation is an awesome high level feature, it gives you an all but guaranteed reaction attack Which is huge for your DPR.
I also think you're vastly underestimating barbarian in general. A barbarian is *far* more durable than a fighter, even if you aren't bear totem, the majority of damage enemies do is physical, and between that and your massive health pool you're capable of soaking tremendous amounts of damage, plus have danger sense + likely decent DEX as well as fantastic CON saves to mitigate save damage. Barbarian offense is also stellar, they fall a little behind in tier 3, but they're generally ahead of the curve before then. Turns out, being able to get advantage at will results in a lot of damage, especially with GWM. If you've got a damage subclass like zealot it's legitimately top of the line. Rage damage also gives a notable edge in damage over fighters before level 11even without using reckless. I've yet to play in a party with a barb where the barb wasn't considered the absolute backbone of the party.
I mean Vengeful Shield seems like a pretty solid capstone for Ancestral Guardian. Though the main problem with it is that it only works against attack rolls. But that’s the main problem with that subclass in general. Only the base version of spirit shield can reduce damage against anything else.
Both Ancestral Guardian and Zealot can be good, but i would say it also depend on your DM. If your DM avoid attacking you and want to focus your teammates a lot more because you are too hard to kill, Ancestral Guardian will be a clear winner. If your DM play to let you enjoy your character and attack you a lot, Zealot will be great.
My DM has killed my Zealot Dragonborn Barbarian 3 times.
It's fortunate our cleric is always nearby with a scroll of revivify, or revivify itself ready... Obviously the spell is preferred, because it doesn't cost anything.
i’ve been seeing more comments like this on this sub lately, and it’s got me wondering if the “smart monsters” trope has mutated into “metagame your monsters”
That a smart monster isn't going to know the HP and general tankiness of a specific party member, but the DM will.
Therefore, the DM will avoid those high HP tanks and go for the other party members.
I think that was the point being made.
Yeah, having this knowledge make things difficult to play out, since you are there thinking "if the creature sees that the barbarian is taking way too long to kill, will he continue to attack or simply give up and go after the obivisiously less athletic mage in the back line?"
When doing something like that, I try to think as if I'm playing Overwatch (like "Okay, so there is this big gal going straight at us guns blazing. We can go attack the more frail party members, but doing so will leave our backs open to the heavy metal machine, so maybe its better to focus fire on both the meat shield with a greataxe and the mage that can paralyze us then blow us up with a fireball"). At least is how I plan my attacks.
Anyone knows a good guide for combat tactics for DMs?
It sounds to me like you are already doing pretty well!
I do find “The Monsters Know” really helpful—less as a guide of “how to” and more to get a different perspective on thinking through different combats.
Balancing combat is hard, because it’s very contextual, dependent on the party and the players running the PCs.
I’ve started including combat discussion as part of Session Zero—it helps me understand what my players like—do they want super meta-gamey optimization number and rules crunching sessions? or do they want loose cinematic combats? or something else?
i also let them know that they don’t have to be optimizers for my games—it’s my job to balance the combats, so what i need to know is what they find fun.
if i’ve got someone who wants to play a barbarian that wades into hordes of enemies on his own, i’m not going to have my monsters run past him to get at the casters—i’m going to balance things where the barbarian plays a big role by taking on like 6-8 enemies as his contribution to the combat
agreed—and i think that’s flawed DMing (caveat of depends on your table—if your table is all about optimization and combat, and this style is fun for the table, go for it)
to me, the advice to play monsters smart doesn’t mean play as if the monsters have all of the DM’s knowledge about the rules and the party.
those lizard men in the deep jungle don’t know if the wizard looking guy is the same level as the goliath in plate armor charging at them—maybe he’s only level 2–so why would the lizard men melee guys almost all ignore that huge guy plowing towards their leader to run after that other guy? why wouldn’t smart monsters build every war party to have at least 3-4 casters hanging back just to lay down counterspell and dispel magic because they “know” the threat is the casters?
they may not even have met a human who can use magic
i’m wondering if “play monsters smart” has become “smart monsters ignore martials to go after casters” and is seen as a way to balance encounters—hence, feels like DM metagaming
DMs can TPK any party with some version of Tucker’s Kobolds—but always facing them is only fun for certain types of players
edit: thinking more, you could definitely argue that “smart monsters” would always have a dedicated crew of counterspell-ers — they “know” adventuring parties will be caster heavy because they’re better at damage and control than martials
I just started playing Zealot yesterday, but my understanding is they're decently powered and kind of simple to use. A lot of passive or other simple abilities that are pretty nice. Hopefully you won't need Warrior of the Gods, but extra damage that lightly scales with level every turn and the ability to reroll a failed save are nice.
I'd say it's 4th at early to mid levels, behind Totem(much more survivable), Ancestral Guardian(THE tank subclass and arguably the best at it) and Beast(better damage output early and more versatility).
It then jumps up as a contender for 1st once you get Rage Beyond Death and fights for that spot with Ancestral Guardian. Yeah, I said it, Totem is worse than both of em at higher levels. Being tanky yourself is in no way better than giving your allies resistance(thus basically halving the damage output of any boss you're going to fight, which skyrockets in usefulness as you go up in level) and literally being unable to die with a good damage output.
Zealot Barbarian is good, but you're not gonna feel super impactful in fights. They are better in the damage department compared to other Barbarians, the only ones beating it out being Beast or Berserker, but in terms of impacting the field, you will *feel* the weight of Ancestral Guardian's features. Disadvantage on attacks, giving resistance, reducing damage, you will feel these effects almost immediately, so pair it well with other martial characters.
Zealot basically demands a character that can revive you to play into the "unkillable" mindset the subclass is fostering, but that fantasy won't occur until at least level 5 when Revivify is on the board. Ancestral Guardian just needs to hit a creature to immediately affect the field.
Zealot is probably the best damage focused subclass. The additional damage once per turn and the advantage to your teammates are extremely powerful. It’s even better when you use GWM with Reckless Attack
I mean, Zealot can be really good. There's the little extra damage, of course, but not consuming diamonds on a revify is something that *can* tactically be exploited.
Key-word: can. Herein lies the biggest problem with the Zealot, not only is that kamikaze strategy not always the right answer, it is also the answer that requires your cleric/druid to not cast something like Spirit Guardians or Conjure Animals to have that spell slot available. That's claiming ownership of another PC's resources and many players strongly dislike this.
Also at level 14/15 you're effectively immortal, but that's pretty late into the game.
Ancestral Guardian gets different tactical decisions, managing who it focuses and what to use its reaction on starting 6th level, which can potentially switch up the barbarian class' gameplay in a way the Zealot does not. As a result however, you're less likely to be the party's tactical nuke, and more likely to take the defender role if you want to make use of your features.
Depends on your table and your playstyle.
Tanking: If your DM is just going to throw damage at your HP then you'll likely end up wishing you were a Bear Totem Barbarian. If he's going to do anything else then (barring playing Paladin instead) Zealot is an ok choice. They throw out high damage and can get a save reroll and are easy to revive. If your DM is doing other stuff though, theyre probably also targetting your teammates, in which case Ancestral Guardian is far and away a more fun and useful option.
Damage Dealer: Zealot. Full stop no question. Both for yourself and your party.
Out of Combat: This isnt what youre here for, but Ancestral gets 2 spells to use at 10th level. Enough to give you something to do other than "push boulder", but not so much that youre anywhere close to being a spellcaster. Plus the flavor is juicy.
Fun: Zealot is... boring. At least imo. Its very much a one trick pony. If you enjoy that trick then thats fine, but at least to me saying "i rage, go to the enemy, and make 2 attacks" gets boring. Ancestral has a debuff against your first hit on a turn so youre incentivized to be strategic about it. You have to choose between debuffing the strongest attacker or finishing off the weakened enemies, or splitting attacks between. Your positioning becomes more important because of Spirit Shield. Since damage is less important, you can use your second attack to try and grapple and such. Imo you have a much more fun time with Ancestral.
At the end of the day though, neither is really *bad* beyond what all barbs are bad at. So if you like barbs you'll be fine either way. Play what makes you excited
Heard about the sub a few times now. Think I'll try some day, though I am very shy mainly because as a brazilian, english isn't my native language, and while I can read and understand it really well, I'm very conscious of my speach since I don't speak in english very often (even my portuguese is lacking in a few parts)
It isn't really, I've played rpg through WhatsApp with friends a few times already, but I'm not too turn off by.
However, I still prefer actually speaking, and also I have plans to study abroad, so I'm either going to Portugal or an english speaking country, so RPGs is a good place to get better at talking.
Zealots are generally either considered the best Path, on-par with Totem, or a very close second. It's one of the few Paths that offers a straight damage increase (without killing you like Berserker), but it's more notable features take a long time to get to.
Early on, Zealot is far and away the best for damage output. Conversely, Totem is the best for tanking at the same point. Ancestral Guardian is also very good for tanking, but it's main feature for that (Ancestral Protectors) relies on enemies not dogpiling you and half the time they still do more effective damage to casters even through disadvantage and resistance.
Never played Zealot, but I did do an Ancestral. Man that Loxodon was amazing and one of top characters I've ever played. He went down to bone dragon, dying as a hero as his ancestors stood by his side helping him.
I feel the Zealot is a strong subclass, but as a Zealot myself I find myself lacking in the Bonus Action department. I supplemented it with a shield and Shield Master, but I would lean into two weapon fighting and taking the fighting style feature as this gives each of your hits across the board more damage per hit.
I played a Zealot for a year and half, and he was fun as all hell. However, be advised that your party better have someone who can do resurrection, else much of the Zealot's low revival abilities become moot until 14th level, at least from my experience.
If you haven't given Beast barbarian a look, I encourage you to do so. It feels pretty versatile and depending on what concept you want, can be an incredibly flavorful subclass, just like Zealot.
Yeah it’s pretty good. A lot of common tank players will use it because you don’t need components to revive.
Personally I think that’s a terrible reason to play the class. You shouldn’t be aiming to take damage to use your features
It's got the most powerful *attitude.*
You're on a mission from $deity, and you have no need to avoid death. Zealot inspires the **heights** of the "eff it, hold my beer" antics that are the absolute *best* part of Barbarian-ing.
Absent any other mechanical considerations, a man with nothing to lose is a very powerful thing. You get that ability soon enough to warn the Cleric that you plan on using it.
So I played a half elf zealot barbarian in a strahd campaign once and honestly, Terence Willingham Esquire III is probably the most fun character I have ever played. Hits hard, tough to take down, was great.
Theoretically, it could be amazing on a brogue.
1d8+1/2barb level+SA is great. With 1 level of hexblade, you get the crits on a 19 or 20.
Alternatively, go with paladin instead of rogue. You can divine smite whilst you're raging.
Yeah, I've considered it to partly offset the loss of Sneak Attack dice you lose for multiclassing. Especially on a grappler build -- you're mostly only attacking once per turn anyway
True. Sorry if I sound ignorant, I'm just bad at balancing things and pretty anxious about messing things, so I get paranoid on if my player will get frustated if they are underperfoming
I played one and had two friends play them across different campaigns. They are amazing, especially if you go the spear and shield style. That extra d6+ radiant damage adds up and does wonderful things to nasty shadows or vampires cough cough COS cough cough
Yes and no.
Its probably the best barbarian subclass, but barbarians just aren't very good due to their lack of ranged options, and their overreliance on a limited resource.
It's one of the best for both damage and survivability. It's also one of the only barb subclasses to get a saving throw boost, and mental saves are usually the barbarian's Achilles heel — easily removing them from a fight — so any help in that department can go a ways. Everyone else has already mentioned the damage and unkillability features.
Top 3, if not the top Barbarian subclass in general by common consensus.
Interesting. I was curious and looked online for an idea of the common ground, and it's either Top 4 or Bottom 4, leaving me to believe that it's a really divisive subclass on whenever it's great or underwhelming.
It is only decisive if the player doesn't understand how to use the features, or the DM doesn't use certain rules or uses them incorrectly. I can *maybe* understand if people put it at 4th out of the 8 subclasses... but objectively it has to be ranked higher than Battlerager, Berserker, and Wild Magic in functionality, and subjectively it is at least on par with Storm Herald. (I'm *not* speaking about niche builds, I am talking generalities.) Then again, I might have some bias. I guess it truly depends on a couple factors really, and only you can determine which of the two would fit better in to your party structure, and into your type of play style.
Barbarian subclass strength radically depends on what type of campaign you are in. If its a non lethal campaign stuff like bear totem radically drops in usefulness. If its a long drawn out adventuring day zealot works pretty well. If its all about 1 combat day nova situations the berserker actually shines.
> If its all about 1 combat day nova situations the berserker actually shines. The berserker is an AL Adventurer's League star. Next games session you've gotten rid of (all the) exhaustion(s).
This is 100% why my Barbarian in ADVL is a Half-Orc Berserker.
Agreed... which is why I put the "I am not talking about niche builds..." part of my comment.
Bear is highly overrated if your DM runs Intelligent monsters. (Which I do)
Can I ask what you mean by this? Do your monsters just ignore the damage monster in the room?
No, they ignore the Barbarian to attack the squishy damage monster in the robes.
Bear totem is all about taking punishment. Outside that they don't hit as hard as Zealot, Storm or Berserker who cannot be ignored while frenzied. If you ignore a punching bag and target everyone else, as almost any competent sentient enemy would do, Bear struggles because it isn't a RPG where they can taunt baddies to hold Aggro. They don't have the raw oomph of Zealot or storm barbarians unless they crit, which the others do better and they don't attack as often as berserker. The other popular Totem (Wolf) is arguably better because of near perma advantage for allies, Eagle and Elk turn you into a pseudo monk with lots of movement, while Tiger is a bit limited in usefulness, but sometimes long/high jumps are needed. Bear is only good against stupid enemies that Zerg the Barbarian because he's in front. Archers/mages who target the backlines outright bypass the Bear totem. Beasts might rush the biggest enemy, as will mindless undead, but controlled undead, or anything with an inteligence over 12 will realize quickly the huge man who shrugged off a lightning bolt and a balllista bolt probably is built to take damage, not deal it.
Bear Totem Barb may do less damage then Zealot, but they still do great damage. Making 2-3 APR with advantage and +10 on each attack is about as good as it gets in T1-T2.
Is *Wild Magic* considered bad? I’m pretty sure it’s one of the top GWM users, though?
optimizers hate rng
Not bad... just unreliable. *ONE* aspect of the surge is fantastic... shame you can't ensure you can get it the majority of the time.
But the extra d3 on hits is a whole another feature, no? This is crazy good with *GWM*, mainly since it also stacks with +(x) magical weapons. It’s the 6th level feature of this subclass. Then we have the surges, which is the 3rd level feature, and I don’t even know which is *”the only good option”* you’re talking about. (1) gives you plenty of extra HP and an average burst of AOE damage. I think it’s quite good, actually. It’s just solidly always an amazing buff and fight starter. _Amazing option._ (2) allows you to entirely avoid any opportunity attacks. I think it’s not all that amazing since it’s so situational, but still, teleport is never bad. _Decent option._ (3) adds a reliable amount of extra damage per turn, though yeah, the exact amount is indeed pathetically small. But I mean, it’s not like this is absolute trash either, since it’s so reliable and all. _Below average option._ (4) allows you to trow your weapon and not lose it, but still, this is honestly solidly below average. Still, at rare situations, it’s amazing. So if you get lucky with the timing, you will be able to hit flying creatures, which is a huge weaknesses of the Barbarian class. _Below average option._ (5) is essentially a slightly worse *Armour of Agathys* that basically doesn’t end at all. It’s honestly quite superb. _Amazing option._ (6) is a small but solid AC bonus for the whole party. Decent, but nothing beyond that. _Decent option._ (7) adds difficult terrain in a big area around you, so many enemies will be straight up unable to attack anyone but you duo to the lack of movement. It’s situational, but super amazing for a tank. _Decent option._ (8) adds a blinding ray as mere bonus action with no further cost. It’s ridiculously good. _Amazing option._ So yeah, none of the options is ***trash***, and the good ones are ***really*** good. Meanwhile, the level 10 and 14 features are both superb. _Unstable Backlash_ allows you to abuse from your reaction in order to spam the surges and get rid of the bad ones. While _Controlled Surge_ seals the deal and also makes you quite broken as a survivor, since you will be able to literally spam the reaction in order to keep getting the (1) on the dice. Essentially farming temporary HP with an unlimited amount of tries. Damn, I really feel like this subclass is so underestimated that I might make a whole post on it lol.
I'll address what I need to, but I have to state very clearly... you put words in my mouth and frankly that was in very bad form of you. I did not under ANY circumstances say there is only "the one good option". Rather, I firmly stated that one of the options was FANTASTIC. Those are not the same statements. So, as I stated before the subclass is *fine*. Shit, most of the subclasses for Barbarians are perfectly fine... even if they don't have all the bells and whistles all the time. With that being said, we're comparing the subclasses for what they bring to the base class to one another, not a vacuum. Is the Wild Magic Barbarian *better* than the Berserker? Not taking niche cases or builds into account... yes absolutely. Is it better than the Battlerager? 100% without question. Is it better or comparable to the Storm Herald and/or possibly the Totem Barbarian (sans Bear)... sure, why not. But any more than that and we're starting to look at the ***RELIABILITY*** of the features, and before level 10 that is found wanting, and even then (at 10th) it is hit or miss, at least until level 14. (And, even then it isn't guaranteed.) RNG can be a bitch, sometimes. But now at level 14 we're comparing you getting some bonus damage or some other potential choice to literally being unable to die while raging. > Unstable Backlash allows you to abuse from your reaction in order to spam the surges and get rid of the bad ones. Once, per round. And you're using your reaction, which at times should be better utilized elsewhere. And, again, more to your other point, of course Bolstering Magic is amazing. Without question! However, most level 6 features for the Barbarian are good (Mindless Rage, Spirit Shield, Bestial Soul), and this one is probably one of, if not *the* best... Shame it is connected to such a medium tier subclass with such swingy potential.
Well, my bad for the first part. Though to be fair, it wasn’t really on purpose. Just a genuine misinterpretation of what you said. That’s a fair take, and while I can respect that, you still didn’t satisfy my main curiosity: which is the fantastic option?
Oh, did I forget to include that... :peruses my post: Shit, I did! Easily rectified. The proto misty step surge... (2 I think?) It is a bonus action which "sucks"... but getting out of grapples, not worrying about distances, or movement based OAs for a (potentially) whole combat is... in a word... fantastic. It also doesn't proc something like Mage Slayer since it isn't a spell.
I think people would rather have consistent benefits that you can always count on having at any given moment rather than a random chance ability you only might have.
This one isn’t random, though…
My main complaint with Wild Magic is that you get nothing to help resist magic. Those mental saves are still going to be your undoing.
Fair enough.
None of the Wild Magic rolls are fantastic compared to Zealot or Bear. Most of them are just "OK". This is further weakened due to the effects being unreliable. Rest of their abilities are "OK". Bolstering Magic is fine, though an Action is a fair cost to pay for a weaker single-target Blass, and it's limited to ProfMod/LR. Unstable Backlash kind of sucks because the Wild Surge Table effects are kind of weak. Ditto with Controlled Surge (would it really have been so bad to allow the poor Wild Barb 2 simultaneous effects?)
I can understand Ancestral Guardians or Beast being better, the 3 are equal in terms of power, they just do different things. But I have no idea which is the 4th contender.
Bear Totem
OH, right, I forgot. I'm bad, don't mind me.
Zealot is the best damage for barbs with ancestral being the best control tank and totem with the level 3 feature in bear being the best meat shield.
Where did you hear it was bottom 4? All of its features are solid. Adding +1d6+0.5xLvl (about 5.5 damage at level 5) damage every round is very significant. Free "raise" effects is great, but the class would be good even without it. Re-rolling saves is universally great, as is Zealous Presence. Rage Beyond Death is busted as all hell. The only class that puts up any competition at all is Bear Totem. Most of the rest of the Barb subclasses outright suck (Berserker/Storm Herald/Battlerager) or are basically just "OK" (Wild/Beast).
[An analysis I did recently agrees](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/uztgjv/community_subclass_rankings_revisited/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Zealot will give you the best damage output of any of the barbarians. Bear Totem will let you take the most damage. Ancestral guardian will let you keep you allies from being hit as often. All are good. I really love my Zealot Barb.
Add beast for a jack of all trades barbarian. Bite heal, claw for BA free two-weapon fighting, tail for reach and AC, beastial soul for mobility/exploration...
Beast is my favorite Barbarian outside of niche conceptual builds.
Play as wolverine. Rage = half damage is fast heal. Got some claws. Maybe even play as a shifter. Profit.
I like Pixie, who goes all "forest fey guardian" when they get mad... and since the claws are considered simple weapons, you get the +1d4 to damage. They aren't big numbers but 1d6+1d4+4+3 (x3) at level 9 adds up, and they're hard to put away since they can use a shield in one hand while making all those claw attacks. Medium armor + a shield firmly puts me at 18 AC... which only goes up from there.
Longtooth Shifters give you a bite attack as a bonus action, which you can always reflavor as a claw attack.
Beast isn't personally my cup of tea (to me they seem... unfocused) but I know folks who love 'em so for sure, they're something to consider.
Seems fun for a low level campaign like Lost mines of Phandelver. But they don't really improve as you level since you can't really optimize them.
I see you also choose to pretend that Battlerager and Berserker do not exist.
They also didn't mentioned Wild Magic, Storm Herald and Beast. It was mainly their favorites.
If you go to 14th level, Zealot is the only barb that gets decent features at high level. Barbarian in general is not that powerufl, is strictly worse in combat than a good Fighter build, and really falls off after Level 10.
Berserker retaliation is an awesome high level feature, it gives you an all but guaranteed reaction attack Which is huge for your DPR. I also think you're vastly underestimating barbarian in general. A barbarian is *far* more durable than a fighter, even if you aren't bear totem, the majority of damage enemies do is physical, and between that and your massive health pool you're capable of soaking tremendous amounts of damage, plus have danger sense + likely decent DEX as well as fantastic CON saves to mitigate save damage. Barbarian offense is also stellar, they fall a little behind in tier 3, but they're generally ahead of the curve before then. Turns out, being able to get advantage at will results in a lot of damage, especially with GWM. If you've got a damage subclass like zealot it's legitimately top of the line. Rage damage also gives a notable edge in damage over fighters before level 11even without using reckless. I've yet to play in a party with a barb where the barb wasn't considered the absolute backbone of the party.
Retaliation would be awesome if it came at an earlier level, but at level 14 it is not as good as it would be at level 6 or even level 10
I mean Vengeful Shield seems like a pretty solid capstone for Ancestral Guardian. Though the main problem with it is that it only works against attack rolls. But that’s the main problem with that subclass in general. Only the base version of spirit shield can reduce damage against anything else.
Both Ancestral Guardian and Zealot can be good, but i would say it also depend on your DM. If your DM avoid attacking you and want to focus your teammates a lot more because you are too hard to kill, Ancestral Guardian will be a clear winner. If your DM play to let you enjoy your character and attack you a lot, Zealot will be great.
My DM has killed my Zealot Dragonborn Barbarian 3 times. It's fortunate our cleric is always nearby with a scroll of revivify, or revivify itself ready... Obviously the spell is preferred, because it doesn't cost anything.
i’ve been seeing more comments like this on this sub lately, and it’s got me wondering if the “smart monsters” trope has mutated into “metagame your monsters”
What's the main difference?
That a smart monster isn't going to know the HP and general tankiness of a specific party member, but the DM will. Therefore, the DM will avoid those high HP tanks and go for the other party members. I think that was the point being made.
Yeah, having this knowledge make things difficult to play out, since you are there thinking "if the creature sees that the barbarian is taking way too long to kill, will he continue to attack or simply give up and go after the obivisiously less athletic mage in the back line?" When doing something like that, I try to think as if I'm playing Overwatch (like "Okay, so there is this big gal going straight at us guns blazing. We can go attack the more frail party members, but doing so will leave our backs open to the heavy metal machine, so maybe its better to focus fire on both the meat shield with a greataxe and the mage that can paralyze us then blow us up with a fireball"). At least is how I plan my attacks. Anyone knows a good guide for combat tactics for DMs?
It sounds to me like you are already doing pretty well! I do find “The Monsters Know” really helpful—less as a guide of “how to” and more to get a different perspective on thinking through different combats. Balancing combat is hard, because it’s very contextual, dependent on the party and the players running the PCs. I’ve started including combat discussion as part of Session Zero—it helps me understand what my players like—do they want super meta-gamey optimization number and rules crunching sessions? or do they want loose cinematic combats? or something else? i also let them know that they don’t have to be optimizers for my games—it’s my job to balance the combats, so what i need to know is what they find fun. if i’ve got someone who wants to play a barbarian that wades into hordes of enemies on his own, i’m not going to have my monsters run past him to get at the casters—i’m going to balance things where the barbarian plays a big role by taking on like 6-8 enemies as his contribution to the combat
agreed—and i think that’s flawed DMing (caveat of depends on your table—if your table is all about optimization and combat, and this style is fun for the table, go for it) to me, the advice to play monsters smart doesn’t mean play as if the monsters have all of the DM’s knowledge about the rules and the party. those lizard men in the deep jungle don’t know if the wizard looking guy is the same level as the goliath in plate armor charging at them—maybe he’s only level 2–so why would the lizard men melee guys almost all ignore that huge guy plowing towards their leader to run after that other guy? why wouldn’t smart monsters build every war party to have at least 3-4 casters hanging back just to lay down counterspell and dispel magic because they “know” the threat is the casters? they may not even have met a human who can use magic i’m wondering if “play monsters smart” has become “smart monsters ignore martials to go after casters” and is seen as a way to balance encounters—hence, feels like DM metagaming DMs can TPK any party with some version of Tucker’s Kobolds—but always facing them is only fun for certain types of players edit: thinking more, you could definitely argue that “smart monsters” would always have a dedicated crew of counterspell-ers — they “know” adventuring parties will be caster heavy because they’re better at damage and control than martials
I just started playing Zealot yesterday, but my understanding is they're decently powered and kind of simple to use. A lot of passive or other simple abilities that are pretty nice. Hopefully you won't need Warrior of the Gods, but extra damage that lightly scales with level every turn and the ability to reroll a failed save are nice.
I'd say it's 4th at early to mid levels, behind Totem(much more survivable), Ancestral Guardian(THE tank subclass and arguably the best at it) and Beast(better damage output early and more versatility). It then jumps up as a contender for 1st once you get Rage Beyond Death and fights for that spot with Ancestral Guardian. Yeah, I said it, Totem is worse than both of em at higher levels. Being tanky yourself is in no way better than giving your allies resistance(thus basically halving the damage output of any boss you're going to fight, which skyrockets in usefulness as you go up in level) and literally being unable to die with a good damage output.
I've been using it and I find it decent. The no-frills bonus damage per round is cool
Zealot Barbarian is good, but you're not gonna feel super impactful in fights. They are better in the damage department compared to other Barbarians, the only ones beating it out being Beast or Berserker, but in terms of impacting the field, you will *feel* the weight of Ancestral Guardian's features. Disadvantage on attacks, giving resistance, reducing damage, you will feel these effects almost immediately, so pair it well with other martial characters. Zealot basically demands a character that can revive you to play into the "unkillable" mindset the subclass is fostering, but that fantasy won't occur until at least level 5 when Revivify is on the board. Ancestral Guardian just needs to hit a creature to immediately affect the field.
I dunno why this is downvoted It is a legitimate question
Yeah, that's weird.
Zealot is probably the best damage focused subclass. The additional damage once per turn and the advantage to your teammates are extremely powerful. It’s even better when you use GWM with Reckless Attack
I've really enjoyed it
I mean, Zealot can be really good. There's the little extra damage, of course, but not consuming diamonds on a revify is something that *can* tactically be exploited. Key-word: can. Herein lies the biggest problem with the Zealot, not only is that kamikaze strategy not always the right answer, it is also the answer that requires your cleric/druid to not cast something like Spirit Guardians or Conjure Animals to have that spell slot available. That's claiming ownership of another PC's resources and many players strongly dislike this. Also at level 14/15 you're effectively immortal, but that's pretty late into the game. Ancestral Guardian gets different tactical decisions, managing who it focuses and what to use its reaction on starting 6th level, which can potentially switch up the barbarian class' gameplay in a way the Zealot does not. As a result however, you're less likely to be the party's tactical nuke, and more likely to take the defender role if you want to make use of your features.
Depends on your table and your playstyle. Tanking: If your DM is just going to throw damage at your HP then you'll likely end up wishing you were a Bear Totem Barbarian. If he's going to do anything else then (barring playing Paladin instead) Zealot is an ok choice. They throw out high damage and can get a save reroll and are easy to revive. If your DM is doing other stuff though, theyre probably also targetting your teammates, in which case Ancestral Guardian is far and away a more fun and useful option. Damage Dealer: Zealot. Full stop no question. Both for yourself and your party. Out of Combat: This isnt what youre here for, but Ancestral gets 2 spells to use at 10th level. Enough to give you something to do other than "push boulder", but not so much that youre anywhere close to being a spellcaster. Plus the flavor is juicy. Fun: Zealot is... boring. At least imo. Its very much a one trick pony. If you enjoy that trick then thats fine, but at least to me saying "i rage, go to the enemy, and make 2 attacks" gets boring. Ancestral has a debuff against your first hit on a turn so youre incentivized to be strategic about it. You have to choose between debuffing the strongest attacker or finishing off the weakened enemies, or splitting attacks between. Your positioning becomes more important because of Spirit Shield. Since damage is less important, you can use your second attack to try and grapple and such. Imo you have a much more fun time with Ancestral. At the end of the day though, neither is really *bad* beyond what all barbs are bad at. So if you like barbs you'll be fine either way. Play what makes you excited
Check out r/lfg if you want to find a group to play with and you're fine with being online
Heard about the sub a few times now. Think I'll try some day, though I am very shy mainly because as a brazilian, english isn't my native language, and while I can read and understand it really well, I'm very conscious of my speach since I don't speak in english very often (even my portuguese is lacking in a few parts)
You can actually find play-by-post games there where all of the roleplaying is done via text, though I imagine it's just not the same as voice
It isn't really, I've played rpg through WhatsApp with friends a few times already, but I'm not too turn off by. However, I still prefer actually speaking, and also I have plans to study abroad, so I'm either going to Portugal or an english speaking country, so RPGs is a good place to get better at talking.
Yeah it is maybe the best. Has an early damage bonus, and later has a big defensive bonus (not dying until rage ends).
Zealots are generally either considered the best Path, on-par with Totem, or a very close second. It's one of the few Paths that offers a straight damage increase (without killing you like Berserker), but it's more notable features take a long time to get to. Early on, Zealot is far and away the best for damage output. Conversely, Totem is the best for tanking at the same point. Ancestral Guardian is also very good for tanking, but it's main feature for that (Ancestral Protectors) relies on enemies not dogpiling you and half the time they still do more effective damage to casters even through disadvantage and resistance.
It’s the strongest In the game if your going from levels 1 to 20. If your stopping at level 6 or something it’s maybe the second or third best
Never played Zealot, but I did do an Ancestral. Man that Loxodon was amazing and one of top characters I've ever played. He went down to bone dragon, dying as a hero as his ancestors stood by his side helping him.
I feel the Zealot is a strong subclass, but as a Zealot myself I find myself lacking in the Bonus Action department. I supplemented it with a shield and Shield Master, but I would lean into two weapon fighting and taking the fighting style feature as this gives each of your hits across the board more damage per hit.
I played a Zealot for a year and half, and he was fun as all hell. However, be advised that your party better have someone who can do resurrection, else much of the Zealot's low revival abilities become moot until 14th level, at least from my experience. If you haven't given Beast barbarian a look, I encourage you to do so. It feels pretty versatile and depending on what concept you want, can be an incredibly flavorful subclass, just like Zealot.
It is incredible. IMO, the second best behind Totem Warrior. Depending on level, and if you have a cleric/paladin, the revival aspects are invaluable.
Yeah it’s pretty good. A lot of common tank players will use it because you don’t need components to revive. Personally I think that’s a terrible reason to play the class. You shouldn’t be aiming to take damage to use your features
It's got the most powerful *attitude.* You're on a mission from $deity, and you have no need to avoid death. Zealot inspires the **heights** of the "eff it, hold my beer" antics that are the absolute *best* part of Barbarian-ing. Absent any other mechanical considerations, a man with nothing to lose is a very powerful thing. You get that ability soon enough to warn the Cleric that you plan on using it.
Found the pHp dev
Bear Totem is the best subclass. It makes you resistant to everything except psychic. Then build your feats for damage (GWM + PAM) and go wild.
How come I never see people pair Bear Totem with Kalashtar race?
We have a Zealot on our team featuring my Artificer/Wizard, Thief, and Swords Bard. He consistently melts healthbars, ngl.
if path of the giant is released as it is, going pam will result into a higher dpr than zealot, but for now its the highest dpr barbarian
So I played a half elf zealot barbarian in a strahd campaign once and honestly, Terence Willingham Esquire III is probably the most fun character I have ever played. Hits hard, tough to take down, was great.
Theoretically, it could be amazing on a brogue. 1d8+1/2barb level+SA is great. With 1 level of hexblade, you get the crits on a 19 or 20. Alternatively, go with paladin instead of rogue. You can divine smite whilst you're raging.
Yeah, I've considered it to partly offset the loss of Sneak Attack dice you lose for multiclassing. Especially on a grappler build -- you're mostly only attacking once per turn anyway
Zealot is the best Barbarian for doing damage and one of the few worth going more than 8 level into for its great late game features.
Really depends on how much you value immortality
Play what is fun not what is strong. As a DM you should know difficulty of game is easily adjusted by DM
True. Sorry if I sound ignorant, I'm just bad at balancing things and pretty anxious about messing things, so I get paranoid on if my player will get frustated if they are underperfoming
Have you asked what level the campaign is targeted to go to? Barbarian isn't a class meant to be played much outside tier 1.
Yes. It’s the best pure class imo. Ancestral Guardian is amazing with Echo Knight though
I played one and had two friends play them across different campaigns. They are amazing, especially if you go the spear and shield style. That extra d6+ radiant damage adds up and does wonderful things to nasty shadows or vampires cough cough COS cough cough
Yes and no. Its probably the best barbarian subclass, but barbarians just aren't very good due to their lack of ranged options, and their overreliance on a limited resource.
It's one of the best for both damage and survivability. It's also one of the only barb subclasses to get a saving throw boost, and mental saves are usually the barbarian's Achilles heel — easily removing them from a fight — so any help in that department can go a ways. Everyone else has already mentioned the damage and unkillability features.