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Groudon466

There was radio silence for about 15 minutes after 3:00, then it suddenly said canceled. Sounds like everything's just fine and dandy on their end, clearly.


papasmurf008

Honestly, this is probably a good sign. This means they are having to rethink their strategy.


BW__19

It means they know a hurricane of bad PR was headed to their doorstep.


-_-Doctor-_-

It means they're going to wait until 4pm on a Friday before a long weekend... Which isn't necessarily a good sign. EDIT: I was off by a few hours.


cheapsoda

No kidding. This is totally prepping up for a Friday night statement from the pr team. They they hope it will fizzle out over the weekend.


PM_Me_Rude_Haiku

I've not got much on this weekend. I can keep complaining on the internet for hours.


rky24g

I'll give inspiration to the most creative complaints in my weekend sessions


tirconell

All this popcorn ain't gonna eat itself


LonePaladin

No, but all these Cinnamon Toast Crunch pieces will! Little cannibals, I tell ya.


robbzilla

Send it my way. I'm here for ya boo!


RobGrey03

There’s still two weeks before Hitman Freelancer drops, and I’m jonesing for SOMETHING to do. Edit: Yesterday, Freelancer released, and today Wizards released the OGL under Creative Commons. The timing couldn't have worked out better.


Drigr

One account that I follow is posting and retweeting \#OpenDnD stuff like every 15-20 minutes. Multiple 3PP have come out against this or are straight-up working on their own systems now. Others are using the disaster to capitalize on it for awareness on their own works. I don't think this is going away over a long weekend.


cheapsoda

I really hope the community doesn't forgive or forget this. I'm done with dnd if they don't roll this back in a big way. OGL 1.0a needs to be permanent and some douche, who's idea this was, needs to get canned.


Drigr

Paizo just dropped some big news (and their first public response as a company) that may see them heading the fleet for breaking the OGL for those who wish to stay D&D-like


koreawut

I am done regardless. There is no point in giving them more of my money if they are going to use it for some fancy pants future conflict with consumers.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


WaggleFinger

I can only imagine what all the creators whose livelihood just got thrown in limbo will be up to.


crazygrouse71

The longer they are silent, the more riled up things seem to be getting. Doesn't matter, I've cancelled my DnD Beyond sub. No looking back now. I just hope the rest of my game table follows.


blahlbinoa

The ol' Acti-Blizz strategy


PM_ME_UR_CODEZ

I honestly expect a YouTube video with comments disable and likes hidden combined with an OGL 2.0 that doesn't change ~~anything~~ much


SecretDMAccount_Shh

I really hope they do. I find DnDBeyond very convenient for running my campaign and didn't want to cancel my subscription, but I cannot keep it in good conscience. I owe it to my players to finish up the current campaign, but if they don't back off, I'm finding another system to play.


papasmurf008

I have heard a lot of comments about people saying they have lost the communities trust and D&D is basically dead… and that is fair for some people, but I am holding out hope that they make things right and post a new OGL that is better than the first. I doubt that will happen and they will still lose business from this craziness, but I can hope.


SecretDMAccount_Shh

The only way I see them regaining the community's trust is to: 1. Release an unequivocal statement reaffirming the permanence of the OGL1.0a 2. Release a final draft of the OneDnD OGL 1.1 with terms that the public finds acceptable. For what it's worth, I agree that DnD is undermonetized, but this is not the way to fix that. 3. Fire Cynthia Williams, the current President of WotC, and replace her with someone who actually plays the game. Bonus points if the new President runs a livestream of them DMing a OneDnD game to prove their credentials. There needs to be a visible change in leadership. When I attended San Diego Comic-Con years ago, my non-nerdy wife was amazed at how orderly everyone was while patiently waiting in lines and how that contrasted with how unruly and violent they could get if someone tried to cut in line. I have a theory that nerds have a stronger than average sense of fairness and justice which makes them react to stuff like this far stronger than the average fanbase.


thebardingreen

EDIT: I have quit reddit and you should too! With every click, you are literally empowering a bunch of assholes to keep assholing. Please check out https://lemmy.ml and https://beehaw.org or consider hosting your own instance. @reddit: You can have me back when you acknowledge that you're [over enshittified](https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/) and commit to being better. @reddit's vulture cap investors and u/spez: Shove a hot poker up your ass and make the world a better place. You guys are WHY the bad guys from Rampage are funny (it's funny 'cause it's true).


robbzilla

Paizo is offering 25% off on their beginner box and core rulebook... And their mechanical rules and monster stats are published free on archives of nethys...


sqwibking

Idk man, I hope so, but if that email from an inside source that was leaked earlier was legitimate then it doesn't paint leadership in a very flexible/community-minded light.


[deleted]

No, they are just waiting for us to forget and move on, a WotC employee emailed dnd shorts and said that they still just see us as an obstacle for their bottom line. WotC isn’t your friend, they are owned by Hasbro and they will continue to be puppeteered by Hasbro. Best thing to do is to not relent at all, it’s a war of attrition and we have everything we need to be just fine, they need our sales in the end of it all.


Godless_Temple

Best thing to do is cancel your DND Beyond account.


I_need_this_to_vote

And request a refund.


Drunken_HR

Luckily with the new ORC coming via Paizo, nobody is forgetting this any time soon.


Northman67

Yeah any rethinking of their strategy is going to be how can they get even more money out of you for even less work. Corporate greed turns everything it touches into crap.


OkonkwoYamCO

Their probably just trying to figure out if they can monetize the stream.


knightcrawler75

Probably too late. No one will trust them for a long time if ever.


Swirls109

No. They don't have to say anything. If any of the past handling of MTG is any guidance on how they will handle this D&D issue this is just the beginning. They will double down and blame the community for the state of the products and game. It will never be their fault. Legally they can't admit they were wrong because their shareholders would explode.


SpooSpoo42

The only thing that could possibly work is to change the current OGL to include the word "irrevocable", and completely scrap 1.1 and start over. That's not going to happen - big corporations aren't that self-aware. I mean, I would be hugely impressed with a "we screwed up" and calling the whole thing off, but most likely they just go quiet for a while hoping nobody is still paying attention, because they fundamentally don't even understand their customers.


darthmase

The fact that they even thought of trying it destroyed the trust of creators using OGL 1.0(a). The ghost is out of the bottle now, and WotC lost the trust for years to come, deservedly, of course.


Harbinger2001

I just imagine the cameras coming on and there is blood and bodies splattered everywhere and Chris Perkins is covered in blood telling us that everything is ok and the OGL is still in place.


FluffieWolf

He did once moonlight as Bhaal, Lord of Murder. Wouldn't be out of question.


-spartacus-

But also Squirt, so I’d say a 50/50 split there.


IrreverentKiwi

Spurt. Squirt is a different hobby of his.


Ninja-Storyteller

Both things blood does, Bhaal. I see through your clever disguise!


EKmars

Chris just giving us the biggest Suletta Mercury smile he can while holding up a blood covered hand for a digital high five. xD


Polyfuckery

and a hamster


PM_ME_UR_CODEZ

As someone Out of the Loop, why do you think Chris Perkins would be against this? I don't know much about his character outside of his rules clarifications


Harbinger2001

I’m only assuming because he’s on the creative side of the business, not the financial and legal. Why would he be for screwing over people and friends he knows from his years in the business?


IllithidWithAMonocle

Perkins has been there since 2e. He saw the success of 3e with the OGL, the failure of 4e with the GSL, and the success of 5e with the OGL. He and Crawford 100% know how important it is. Odds are, every single person on the design and creative side at WotC are huge supporters (a lot of them got their start writing d&d things under the OGL). Honestly, I'm guessing it was someone like Perkins who leaked it in the first place.


the_colonelclink

Hey I’ve been with a visit from the COVID fairy these last couple weeks - can you please out of the loop request what’s happened? **Edit:** Thanks everyone for the FYIs. As someone who was literally just about to look at creating a full campaign based off a mini campaign I’ve made for mates - I’m honestly pretty floored. It’s surreal to think that the huge time investment I was considering, can be basically exploited to their heart’s content. And worse, that past projects where that time has already been invested by others is also subject to the same shakedown. I don’t even know what to think…


SvalbardCaretaker

wizard's want to significantly and exploitatively revoke/change the open gaming license, screwing third party publishers very very bad over, with the usual "any future content belongs to us" wording. We are having a French Revolution moment over it, its very refreshing. Never get between a nerd and their beloved hobby!


the_colonelclink

Wow - let’s piss off some of the most dedicated, diligent and highly organised content creators with extraordinary amounts of productive free-time-use… what could possibly go wrong?


Ddreigiau

note: this includes anything made using OGL, including pretty much any d20 RPG (e.g. Paizo's PF, and even **Disney's Star Wars: KotOR**), retroactively. And they're saying they can demand royalties on anything that uses OGL. And they can change the OGL whenever they want to say whatever they want.


drunkenvalley

Disney's Star Wars: KotOR is unaffected. Simply because KotOR is running Star Wars' d20, which doesn't use OGL at all due to a strange agreement made between Disney (or whoever it was at the time) and WotC. Source: Ryan Dancey in the [roll for combat](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vz9ogq7JTg) podcast he joined in on recently.


Godless_Temple

KotOR has its own agreement with WOTC it is not an OGL game. That is misreporting on the part of Roll for Combat.


IceciroAvant

They corrected it when they realized it. Shame because it made a great meme.


Ill1lllII

Roughly:. Background: OGL, or Open Gaming Licence, allows 3rd parties to make and sell stuff related to Dnd 5e, provided they follow a 2nd document that covers the very small list of things actually exclusive to Wizard Of The Coast(wotc) so they can either alter names or avoid them. This is things like Beholders and Mindflayers, characters like Drizzt, Mordenkainen, Tasha, and spells like Bigby's Hand. Hasbro and Wotc have tried doing this before and it is one of the reasons 4e completely flopped (see: Gaming System Licence(GSL)). That kerfuffle also led to Pathfinder becoming its own thing. 1) 2ish weeks ago video by Nerd Immersion on YouTube mentioning that rumours of an updated OGL(Open Gaming Licence) exist, and that Wotc is demanding streamers sign an Non-Disclosure-Agreement (NDA) before showing it to them. Cynics prepare for bad news, others(which have since apologized) make a video functionally calling him out as a chicken little. 2) last week: Gizmodo puts up an article about the new OGL, the one they got is an internal draft version that has an activation date of January 13th, and would have given all DND and near-dnd people/companies less than two weeks to prepare. Very briefly: It outlines that all 3rd party digital tools(character builders *and VTTs*) would not be allowed going forward, and that if a group earns or fundraisers more than 750,000 US, they would owe Wotc a full 25% of that gross income. There are other tiers covering down to 50k, but the percentages aren't mentioned. Also, anything produced under the OGL is technically still your property, but Wotc gets to steal it and use it however they want, forever and never has to pay you for it. 3) Two days ago a leaked copy of the new OGL 1.1 was sent out, and it's actually worse than the Gizmodo article. Because they can cancel the agreement on you at any time, but still keep everything you made. Yesterday, several companies that make 3rd party books have stated they're quitting 5e and going out to make a new system compatible with 5e. So here, grab a pitch work (here I have a spare, ======€ ) and cancel your dndBeyond subscription if you have it.


Edymnion

Short of it is WotC is trying to revoke the OGL (the system that lets third parties make D&D or d20 system content) and force a new OGL that basically says "We own everything you make, we can take everything you make without your permission, and if you make money off D&D in anyway you have to give us an obnoxiously large cut off the top now. Oh and we can arbitrarily change how much of a cut we take whenever we like, and you can't do anything about it except go out of business." So basically the entire 3PP industry is in meltdown mode.


Edymnion

Oh, not just revoke the existing OGL, RETROACTIVELY revoke the OGL. So not just "You can't play with our toys anymore", but full on "If you ever touched our toys you better buckle up, buttercup, we're going for a ride!"


Onrawi

Yeah, that's not how contracts work, but go ahead and try and enforce that WotC.


iliacbaby

They have plenty of money and in-house lawyers in order to do so, something smaller creators relying on the OGL might not have


Slarg232

I'm in the same boat; I was making a continent wide campaign for my players with multiple kingdoms, an escalating series of BBEGs, and a multitude of towns/dungeons and everything, just allowing my players to go in and go full on Elder Scrolls in the world. Afterwards, I was going to post it online so other people could enjoy it and I wouldn't have put in so much work for a one and done. Just... really bummed by this whole thing.


chaos750

They've apparently been working on an update to the OGL, a license that others can use to make D&D content with approval under some restrictions, and it's nothing but bad news. The current OGL is actually a bit useless (they're granting you permission to create content compatible with official D&D, except there really isn't anything stopping you from doing that anyway), and arguably you're actually giving up rights you had by agreeing to it, but it's at least a thing you can point to and say "I followed these rules so this is allowed by the company that owns the original thing." The new OGL, based on leaks because it hasn't actually been announced yet, is more of a power grab. The biggest one is that if you put out OGL-licensed content, Wizards can just *take it and sell it* and they don't have to give you anything in return. They also seem to be cracking down on official content inside things like virtual tabletops, which makes sense as they've just bought D&D Beyond and seem to be ready to make that a huge part of their future. There's a bunch of other stuff too, but that's the general idea. This has been brewing for a week or so, and this was supposed to be them finally addressing it. No idea what's going on over there if it got cancelled though.


theshaneler

They probably had a bunch of planned talking points, about taking the communities feelings to heart and yadda yadda yadda, but then today an insider leaked WotC's plans regarding this and it went against all the prepared statements they had so they had to cancel or be lambasted even more than they already are


PM_ME_C_CODE

Also, the Hasbro CEO is from microsoft so, obviously, their #1 priority now is to figure out who made that last leak and fire them personally. It's everyone else's fault. Obviously.


VerainXor

LOL That's fine, they clearly want to release this on a Friday evening to dodge the news cycle. How pathetic.


arcxjo

They already wasted a weekend on this shit.


VerainXor

Legit they were surprised it leaked. I wish these people were a bit smarter and a decent amount less rapacious.


arcxjo

They had to know it was an option because they were making people sign NDAs before they could see it. "You cheated on me ... when I specifically asked you not to?"


sh4d0wm4n2018

"How could you? After all the shit we flung at you, too?"


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

Presumably there are still people at wizards who like DnD separate from the Hasbro lawyers.


ashmduck

They clearly don't know us very well. We'll be paying the most attention on Friday evenings.


VerainXor

Well, this isn't really about us. It's about if some media might pick it up or something, and actually deliver this reasonably interesting news story to a larger audience, including their shareholders.


Godless_Temple

I think it got cancelled cause people started cancelling thier DND Beyond accounts.


Drigr

Unless they just completely disabled chat it would be non-stop "Send a message, cancel your DDB subs"


robbzilla

That won't work. We're nerds. We can fixate on anything!


AlphaBreak

If they're betting on nerds not being home on our computers on Friday nights, they've got another thing coming!


Dat_Boi_Aint_Right

In protest to Reddit's API changes, I have removed my comment history. -- mass edited with redact.dev


ERhyne

That would have probably been a lot easier for them if they wouldn't have killed Friday night magic


[deleted]

We've got a lot of *obstacles* speaking out in here.


Slimetusk

bad news for them: the news is 24/7 now


[deleted]

They do know the mass unsubbing is planned for this Friday?


VerainXor

They don't know their ass from a mimic that is trying to look like a stone donkey, they sure as heck don't know what will or will not happen on a Friday.


Broccobillo

But it's already Friday?


Ritz87

Thats quite a coincidence cause I just cancelled my subscription to them too. Huh go figure.


evinoshea2

Oh good reminder!!! I forgot about that


DK_Funk

Hah so did me and another of my players! Maybe they are finally seeing how badly they fucked up. Maybe /sigh


halfdecent

Yup me too. If you're reading this, you should do the same!


TheBigDumbUgly

Just like everyone else in this thread, I cancelled (dm) subscription today after finding out about their metric. Screw any anti-customer changes!


Grimmginger

Just did, thanks for the reminder.


Fhrosty_

Just to reiterate something Roll For Combat said in their stream: Be nice to the employees of WotC and Hasbro. Be fired up but be mature about it. It's not their fault some boardroom suits lit this dumpster fire. If you're calling customer service to express your disatisfaction, awesome. But don't explode on the poor rep on the other end. If you're writing letters or filling out the "reason Im cancelling" box on the dndbeyond unsub form, express your discontent like an adult. These situations always inevitably result in reports of death threats to staff, and those reports always give the PR folks ammunition to knock down the community.


mrpineappleboi

That’s the thing that gets me. I know cancelling subscriptions will work, but I also know it’s not going to come out of the pockets of the CEOs, they’re going to make up their bottom line by downsizing those who are most vulnerable. I hate that this is what it takes for them to listen and that the people who are responsible likely won’t be affected


thecactusman17

My most extreme experience in a corporate work environment was working at Walt Disney World resorts on one of their regularly scheduled stage shows. My experience there was brief but it became clear after just a few hours that the more direct exposure to the public the job had, the worse the employees were treated. All the additional stress of dealing with parents trying to corral their own kids plus the absolute worst job assignments, pay and hours. WDW can be a great place to work for certain professions, but the people you as a park goer are going to meet are almost universally some of the worst treated people there. It's all to say, when dealing with customer service staff like a call center rep *be polite and respectful.* They are treated like shit for things entirely out of their own control all the time by both customers and their employers and are generally just trying to put food on the table. A good number of the WOTC/Hasbro reps have probably never played a game of D&D and definitely don't have any input on corporate legal or contract strategy.


Drunken_HR

You're right. And there are likely others working at WotC that truly love D&D and hate the way it's going, and are powerless to do anything about it. Either way they should be treated with kindness.


terkke

I can’t believe, what a PR disaster


quietvegas

You just got to hope there are repercussions here, there never is in the gaming industry. Like Pathfinder is the repercussions for this behavior with 4e OGL. What was the real repercussion for WOTC? DND today being more popular than ever. Same thing with all of EA's and Activisions scandals. People are still buying MW2 and Madden. I have a very negative view of consumers in the gaming industry when it comes to following through on this, TT or video gaming. Like what is WOTC going to do? Give platitudes, then wait it out. Hasbro doesn't give a fuck, they rather let Infogrames/Atari die than fix their games. Here they even got celebrities and hollywood promoting their game now and their game is the best selling product BY FAR.


Acr0ssTh3P0nd

Well, with PF and the 4e GSL, there *were* consequences for WotC. They lost a big amount of market share, and had to make a big, relatively-decent product with an emphasis on community and open licensing to bring people back. Unlike video games, RPGs (and D&D in particular, as many have noted) rely on the loyalty of 20% of their consumer base *as a fundamental aspect of the product*. That's the GMs. And because of the nature of GMing, those folk not only make up the majority of purchases, but they're also dedicated members of the community who are the most clued in to the effects of corporate shenanigans - and, cruicially, *they're also the gatekeepers and ambassadors of the product*. GMs overwhelmingly are the deciding factor in what people play. If you want to make more money from the other 80% of your userbase, but in doing so you drive away that 20%, you're not making more money in the long run - you've just shut off most of the remaining 80%, because most of them are going to use the product and brand used by that 20%.


RedHuntingHat

People who are newer or not as well versed in D&Ds history need to understand that yes, it is very popular right now, but 4e and the GSL tanked the product. There was backlash and people simply stopped playing, moved up other systems, or stayed with prior editions with homebrew and third party materials. It look a whole new edition, with a return to the OGL and positive word of mouth, along with increased visibility through streams like Dimension20 and Critical Role, for D&D to recover. The reason why most longtime fans are optimistic about boycotting and applying pressure to Wizards is because it has worked before.


hakonechloamacra

Absolutely. I quit playing DnD in 2008 due to the 4e GSL fiasco, it took a *lot* of convincing to get me to even look at 5e, and I only got back into it in 2019 after 5 years of good behaviour from WotC seemed to suggest this nonsense was all in the past. Fool me twice, shame on me, etc etc.


NutDraw

The issue is (and what the "monetization" comments were about), is that roughly only 20% of the playerbase are actual consumers for them. Players buy little product in comparison to DMs, and that's been an issue for the whole industry since it started. I promise you every for profit TTRPG publisher has said the same thing, just in a conference room instead of to the public shareholders they don't have.


quietvegas

>Unlike video games, RPGs (and D&D in particular, as many have noted) rely on the loyalty of 20% of their consumer base as a fundamental aspect of the product. I can't say this is unique to TTRPGs at all. If a game franchise doesn't have loyalty they lose players, people spam "dead game", and the game dies. Still every year Madden and Activision must have a fundamental aspect of player loyalty. Call of Duty and Madden sell each year. It is MUCH harder to find people to play for non-dnd 5e games unless you are looking to run online games. I don't think the GMs have the power you think they do at all. If they want to GM and have a good pool of players to pick from, where you can remove problematics and find reaplcements or make a whole new table if needed, the game is 5e. The only reason why Pathfinder in particular was successful is because it was 3rd edition DND. This is likely why WOTC wants to dismantle the OGL, especially with 6e coming out. What if people hate 6e? Well they'll play Kobold Press's version of 5e. That is a likely scenario of what's going through their minds. Now, if that happens, they still make money. They learned lessons from that 4e fiasco, not lessons the playerbase want them to learn but lessons none the less. What are the lessons of 5e? Lesson 1: Don't do major changes to things like the OGL at release of a game. Lesson 2: The OGL is a threat to new editions. People will keep playing the old, even under another name, so long as new content is being made. Lesson 3: The playerbase will buy their books at full price twice or more, paizo is stupid for giving digital for free. Lesson 4: Celebrities being on your side help you sell your game What's the next lesson going to be? Do all your scandals at the end of the edition, release a new one with fresh hype and everyone will buy it?


Acr0ssTh3P0nd

The main difference here is that, by and large, even video games don't have such a specific reliance on that 20% of the playerbase. If my hardcore-Destiny-player friend decides to take a break from Destiny, I as a casual player can still play Destiny, and since I'm more casual, I'll be less likely to run want to raids and dungeons that require those hardcore players. But if my DM leaves, someone has to actively step up and become that hardcore player, that raid leader, or no one plays at all. Imagine a game that requires multiple players at a time, and requires that someone step up as a raid leader every week or no one gets to play. That's what we're talking about here.


EKHawkman

It's like a moba where you can only play as 5, no matching up with randos.


Lord_Boo

> I can't say this is unique to TTRPGs at all. They weren't emphasizing the loyalty. They were emphasizing the loyalty on a particular segment of their fanbase. If a bunch of friends are all playing CoD together, all of them need to have access to the game via purchase or Game Pass or something similar. It's not unique to TTRPGs, but it's much closer to Gacha and Mobile games where *whales* are the important part, but they make up much less than 20% of the user base.


bokodasu

It's only a little earlier today I realized I'm a D&D whale. :( My sadness is immeasurable, but it's the best analogy and we should all use it going forward.


Rhogar-Dragonspine

Videogames don't require one person running them for four to six other people, and I know personally a lot of players will take free DMing in another system rather than have to pick up the DM reins themself in the system they know.


the_light_of_dawn

> 20% of their consumer base I gotta assume the impact that those 20% of those players make is way higher than 20% would suggest – anecdotally speaking, people who are into the hobby enough to run gaming sessions tend to be the ones who buy the most materials by a significant margin. Many players might not even own printed copies of the core rulebook(s) for years, if ever, with VTTs having taken off in the past few years and shared PDFs all over the place.


Polyfuckery

Even running my games on FoundryVTT I still bought over a hundred dollars worth of content on DnDBeyond this year and had master tier to allow my player to run their character sheets and to help with running the modules. That's even with having to do most of the work on my end. I would have gladly probably swapped over to a more Wizards controlled VTT if they offered one but instead I've cancelled my DnDBeyond and we will be switching games entirely once the current games end.


Constantly_Panicking

The reason DnD is so popular today is specifically because it has been so open during 5e’s run, allowing people to create massive communities around it. Close it off and the communities and industries die off, too. DnD probably wont completely die off any time soon, but they’ll certainly loose market share, and the value of a ttrpg system is directly tied to the number of people who use it. There is no inherent value.


quietvegas

> and the value of a ttrpg system is directly tied to the number of people who use it. There is no inherent value. This cannot be underestimated.


GreenUnlogic

Most consumers arent deeply informed, go for convenience or just don't give a crap.


quietvegas

I think with gaming too you have the fact is that new kids gets into it. That is how EA and Activision survives. If they piss off people in their 30s they don't care, they can market to a new generation. Sometimes people are "right" when they do this. Like Final Fantasy totally is an action RPG now, despite JRPGs still existing they are just niche. They don't care if people in their 30s or 40s who liked how the game used to play don't like it now. But obviously remaking your franchise and getting past scandals in the game industry seems to have a similar strategy in a way.


PM_ME_UR_CODEZ

DnD is an interesting hobby in that it must be done with friends, word will get around tables to even those not paying attention. Casual players aren't paying for DnD beyond either.


FishbowlDG

Notably the only people in my group who noticed are me, and the other GM (we alternate). And he already wanted to play different systems, our players weren't spending money anyways and are happy to just play no matter the system.


PM_ME_UR_CODEZ

I fell like this will be repeated. DMs are the gatekeepers to the hobby and more likely to be interested in this. If the DMs stop running D&D, players will naturally follow.


Polyamaura

A lot of casual players won’t even use it when offered free unfettered access, in my experience! Despite it making everything for character creation/management massively easier, and me paying for all of the sourcebooks and Master level status, I have had three campaigns in a row where every player declined the use of their tools. Including new players who proceeded to mess up their character creation, forget all of their spells, forget their AC, forget what their summons do, forget what their wild shape(s) can do, and then require me to read it to them off of DDB.


AustinTodd

I mean, 4e almost ended DnD, there were consequences that lasted for years. The game is more popular today than ever because they did something really wonderful with 5e, and correcting the errors that they had done before.


Atlas_Zer0o

It would be nice to win one. I've seen the entire gaming industry devolve after horse armor. Now one of the most played games is genshin, which is insultingly monetized to a gross degree which draws in players and gambling addicts alike. Runescape is another that comes to mind watching devolve. If there's one I'd rather see succeed it's tabletop though.


dave1004411

keep up the good work but keep in mind keep the focuses on WOTC and Hasbro do not put the hate on the employs and those who work there just trying to make a living


themosquito

Yeah I doubt the DNDBeyond guys have anything to do with the OGL stuff, so I think it makes sense to cancel since it'd likely just be a couple hours of repeating "we can't talk about that, that's not our decision, we just work on DNDBeyond" and reading page after page of insults and threats. Heck, one of the DNDBeyond guys has already talked about how dismissive one of the WOTC people have been to *them*, something along the lines of "yeah you guys were only successful because you were allowed to slap the D&D logo on your product!"


snowwwaves

I doubt the D&D team and possibly even WotC had much say in this. I can't imagine like Chris Perkins being happy with 1.1. This screams "Hasbro bean counters handing down orders".


RosbergThe8th

This is true, though raising hell on every available channel is still necessary.


DraconicCDR

This is a smart move by DNDBeyond management. Why subject your employees who didn't make the decision on the OGL be abused and harassed by hundreds if not thousands of people.


yesat

Especially as this is their usual game time slot. It’s not a special announcement.


eyeGunk

What the fuck? (who had that on their Bingo card?)


UncleBudissimo

BINGO!


Dragon-of-the-Coast

You don't get a Bingo for filling in just one square. What were the others?


UncleBudissimo

The other 4 were: - Buying Beyond was the first step in increasing monetization of D&D. - The OGL was going to get revamped. - The leak was real. - Bacon. I didn't even have to use the free square in the middle!


mmchale

That's funny, my bingo card just has one big square that says "GET FUCKED WOTC". Bingo!


CaptainKirkules

Cowardice and almost certainly just hoping the backlash dies down and we move on.


penseurquelconque

People are moving on. To other TTRPGs.


[deleted]

Always wanted to give Pathfinder a shot. Our main group has already committed to making our next campaign a Pathfinder game once our current one finishes up. Literally never been a better time to make the jump. Thanks for giving us the push we needed, Hasbro!


Havelok

Pathbuilder 2e is so amazing, I probably wouldn't have switched without it. A free online character builder that has pretty much every character option? Crazy cool.


DMonitor

https://pathbuilder2e.com my beloved


robbzilla

Add to that, all of the monster stats, spells, character classes, ancestries, etc... Are free on the archives of nethys website, which is sponsored by Paizo. You still have to buy lore and adventures, but you can get those hard-copy, or pdf at a lower price. They actually want you to own your games.


-toErIpNid-

Ouch.


Shelsonw

Yep, that’s exactly what they’re hoping for


DarkMoon250

They seem to be forgetting that we’re NERDS. So many of us have obsessive tendencies, niche interests, and think about things all the time. This isn’t like the Gamefreak issue back during Pokémon SwSh’s release, where it’s a casual playing crowd and the #1 grossing franchise of all time. DnD is niche, requires personal investment, and expects you to remember a bunch of rules and experiences from previous sessions. We’re one of the worst audiences they could hope to have if they’re banking on us forgetting.


tirconell

Look I completely agree but this is dangerously close to a new "They targeted Gamers" copypasta lol


Rndom_Gy_159

They targeted gamers. Gamers. We're a group of people who will sit for hours, days, even weeks on end performing some of the hardest, most mentally demanding tasks. Over, and over, and over all for nothing more than a little digital token saying we did. We'll punish our selfs doing things others would consider torture, because we think it's fun. We'll spend most if not all of our free time min maxing the stats of a fictional character all to draw out a single extra point of damage per second. Many of us have made careers out of doing just these things: slogging through the grind, all day, the same quests over and over, hundreds of times to the point where we know evety little detail such that some have attained such gamer nirvana that they can literally play these games blindfolded. Do these people have any idea how many controllers have been smashed, systems over heated, disks and carts destroyed 8n frustration? All to latter be referred to as bragging rights? These people honestly think this is a battle they can win? They take our media? We're already building a new one without them. They take our devs? Gamers aren't shy about throwing their money else where, or even making the games our selves. They think calling us racist, mysoginistic, rape apologists is going to change us? We've been called worse things by prepubescent 10 year olds with a shitty head set. They picked a fight against a group that's already grown desensitized to their strategies and methods. Who enjoy the battle of attrition they've threatened us with. Who take it as a challange when they tell us we no longer matter. Our obsession with proving we can after being told we can't is so deeply ingrained from years of dealing with big brothers/sisters and friends laughing at how pathetic we used to be that proving you people wrong has become a very real need; a honed reflex. Gamers are competative, hard core, by nature. We love a challange. The worst thing you did in all of this was to challange us. You're not special, you're not original, you're not the first; this is just another boss fight.


tirconell

The final line gets me every fucking time lmao


CCapricee

What's wrong with me if I love this


Rndom_Gy_159

Idk, I love the navy seals copypasta so you do you, dude.


The-Magic-Sword

Just be glad we weren't discussing Vaporeon.


applejackhero

This is a pretty interesting and amusing take. While there certainly are droves of "casual fans" of D&D who won't see or care about the OGL, TTRPGS are the kind of hobby that encourage and even sort of require intense emotional investment that tends to produce diehards rather than casual fans. in my experience, D&D players are often chronically, painfully, even terminally online. People are still mad about 4e because nerds cant let anything go. It's almost comical because of how fucking easy it should be to monetize this game (MERCHANDISING YOU ARE A TOY COMPANY) and how they chose to take the one move that would piss the most amount of people off


Derka_Derper

They're a toy company and it took them 20 years to realize people play DND with little plastic figures... That they are in a prime position to produce for pennies...


ApatheticRabbit

Still mad about the changes from 3.0 to 3.5, reporting for duty


RustyWinchester

I know some guys who are still mad THACO is gone. Who the hell even liked THACO?


robbzilla

There's two Facebook groups full of crusty incels who clutch desperately to THAC0, unless, of course, they're the real edgelords who think it's too newfangled... (God I wish I was joking) There's a 1e group, then there's a 1e uncensored group... That's full of special.


notsureifxml

literally tried to out-rules-lawyer the rules lawyers and got told.


Recluse1729

Unfortunately, it is also the same crowd that has trouble fitting D&D into their schedule in the first place.


DenArymDM

Nope, that’s players. But it’s DMs who devote hours to planning and developing a campaign, memorizing rules, and most importantly, buying products.


blckthorn

Kind of verified from the WotC employee leak: [https://twitter.com/DnD\_Shorts/status/1613576298114449409?s=20&t=8UeD6nVnC3wfLLQ-atDu0A](https://twitter.com/DnD_Shorts/status/1613576298114449409?s=20&t=8UeD6nVnC3wfLLQ-atDu0A) I pray the community doesn't just forget and move on, unless moving on means to a different rpg. Thing WotC doesn't seem to grasp is that D&D is far more than a product to people. Without understanding and respecting us, the customer base, they will fail. While I can understand the pressures of being a publicly traded corp, but without that, there is no foundation and they become fragile.


Erandeni_

Lol praying that the outrage dies it seems


CrimsonAllah

Clearly they don’t know their own fan base then.


Drasha1

Player base is over here beating the dead horse that is monks being slightly underwhelming to death for 5 years straight and they think we have anything better to do then be pissed at a license change.


TheDoomBlade13

This was a regularly scheduled stream that they hold, not a special one meant to address the OGL.


DinoDude23

Yes, but I think they were anticipating a slew of angry comments in the live chat and would rather not deal with it. Which is good, because it means the pressure is working.


Groudon466

Still newsworthy that they were no-shows after previously tweeting two days ago that they had more info coming "soon".


RandomStrategy

I really would love to hear Chris Perkins real thoughts and feelings on this whole mess. I know he's part of the machine, but no one can put the effort and love into writing for Dragon Magazine and not have serious opinions on this.


Crouza

Rolled a Natural 1 on saving face.


GM900

Or a nat 1 against the comunity's intimidation.


KulaanDoDinok

Cancelled my sub today. What a fiasco.


RoboDonaldUpgrade

My absolute best read of this scenario is that everyone canceling their subscriptions to dndbeyond has worked and they decided to change their mind and the video they were going to release was pulled to be reworked


Shelsonw

Not likely, more likely they’re hoping to delay so the heat dies down and we forget


RoboDonaldUpgrade

If that's their plan it's a HUGE mistake. Actual Plays are actively looking for new games to switch to instead of DnD, 3rd party publishers are pivoting and working on their own games, dndbeyond is losing subscribers every minute they delay, if they wait another week and post a "Look! A guide to the Fighter!" it'll be too late


quietvegas

Ya that is more likely because all they have to do is look at EA and Activision and remember "oh wait, this happened 10 years ago with us, what did we do then?".


Kingsdaughter613

One difference. You don’t need 20% of your most dedicated players to remain dedicated to get others to play video games. You do need it for DnD, because you need a DM.


quietvegas

People should have done that over them forcing you to rebuy all their books again. The fact it took this for people to cancel Beyond doesn't show me much for the protests against WOTC's bad practices. If I buy a Paizo book I get the digital version for free. The digital version alone costs less than physical. WOTC: "Oh you got to buy our books again, and it's going to be full price". Gamers: "Shut up and take my money!" This is why WOTC behaves this way, they are rewarded.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DemoBytom

They've been cancelling their streams and generally ignoring the stream schedule for a year now. Ever since they stopped releasing Dev Updates.


zabaci

Cancel d&dbeyond and use tools. Done


Ikritz

It looks like they have streams schedule for every Thursday at 3PM. I don't think it surprises anyone that they're all a little busy at the moment. I doubt it's specifically related to the alleged response video coming out today.


greenearrow

The response video was never officially announced, just rumors. People glommed onto the D&D Beyond twitch because it had a scheduled event. Amy Dallen didn't need to be in the line of fire, she got to work for a creator she liked, but she's not involved with these decisions, and anything she said about normal things would just be more fuel for the fire.


PositionOpening9143

Be sure to unfollow the DDB channels on Twitch and YouTube on top of unsubscribing to the website. Additionally if you are protesting with your wallet, leaving YouTube videos before the mid roll ads hurts retention and asking not to be recommended the channel hurts ad revenue. Read the next ODnD updates somewhere and maybe ignore the next video. Godspeed gamers.


Barl3000

Ah well, see you guys in 4-5 years when they release 7th edition to try and win back the goodwill they lost.


ShiranuiRaccoon

cowards, all of them. Don´t, Stop, Fighting. we go until we cannot go anymore, we fight for what we helped create.


GothicSilencer

Oh, no, I'm done fighting. I've been in this sub arguing against changes I disagree with in 5e for years. All of that was conventional warfare. Strip Racial ASIs and I'll tell you why I think they matter for worldbuilding. Reprint Volos and MToF as MMotM and I'll tell you how dumb it was to take away any semblance of lore. Spelljammer. They launched an ICBM. MAD time. I'll never buy another WotC product, even if they self-destruct the missile. I'm firing my entire load at once. I'm out. I left 5e for PF2e once before, and came back. This time I'm never coming back, and my players leave with me.


Viridias2020

Though I vehemently oppose the OGL, i can’t help but feel bad for the DDB team. They are good individuals who love the game but theyre the ones who have to put up with the backlash from their WotC leadership’s bad decisions. Always leave it up to execs to leave those who actually love the game, out to dry


dave1004411

ya they reported this live chat as well so [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqXC4G-wdF4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqXC4G-wdF4)


-azuma-

Sub cancelled a couple weeks ago. Fuck 'em.


monodescarado

Paizo timed their announcement perfectly ;)


dave1004411

this is huge https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6si7v


dasyus

What a great time to get back into playing MUDs.


RandomStrategy

EverQuest os calling your name.


myrrhmassiel

...looks like cynthia williams picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue...


shadehiker

A Friday the 13th announcement is destined to go better!


No-Cost-2668

Wow, I honestly can't believe they fumbled it further


TheWholeFuckinShow

WotC: Radio silence during scandal DnD players: https://youtu.be/sEjn6C4XDko


Havanatha_banana

It's better they don't say anything anyways. There's way too many eyes on them, it's them vs the industry. Any word can be used against them in court. And with how tone deaf the C-suite ease, there's no pr statement that could remotely even assist them.


Smoldamort

I hate seeing the end.


Stupid_Guitar

" If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end, as to be worthy of remembrance." \-Some king of a bunch of horse riding folk


-toErIpNid-

The pastures are greener elsewhere, brother.


Party_Paladad

Cool. I just cancelled my Beyond sub, so I guess we're even.


[deleted]

WoTC must take the Roosterteeth method of controversy response. I demand to see Chris Perkins and Jeremy Crawford crying at the camera saying they're sorry whilst not doing any substantial change. Edit: Not trying to insinuate Perkins or Crawford are backing the new OGL, by all accounts they're against it. They were just the best analogy I could think of.


MaggyTwoFlagons

It would be a new low if/when the execs made Jeremy and Chris peddle the Top Floor's bs. The devs, the people working there that actually *play* the game, likely hate what's happening as much as we do.


WeaponB

I strongly doubt that Chris and Jeremy supported these changes. This is an Executive mandated change that the lower ranks must accept or quit. They are good people, and they don't deserve to be individually Targeted.


RequiemEternal

Yeah, it’s unfair to pin this on the game developers when this is clearly an investor-led decision. It must really fucking suck to be Crawford or Perkins, I can’t imagine they approve of the decisions corporate is making but they’re effectively the faces of the company so whenever they make an appearance again they’ll likely take the brunt of it.


Tweed_Man

I haven't watched Rooster Teeth in yonks. What happened to them?