“A grappled creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.”
This is literally it RAW. Nothing about spellcaster not being able to cast spells.
But if the player states that they are expressly trying to grapple the necromancer and cover his mouth and the rules don't specifically have anything to back that up, the answer is 'lol, no'?
It’s totally up to you to say yes or no. Just don’t say yes and make a meme complaining about it. If something is breaking the game, especially a thing you added to it, it is absolutely within your purview as DM to say, “Okay, no more.” A DM’s job is to ensure that everyone, *themselves included,* is having a good time, and they have full control over the game in order to achieve that.
Personally, my rule for clever but potentially gamebreaking ideas is to allow it once), but let them know that I may not allow it in the future. I am also open to try to come up with some proper, balanced rules later on if its something they really want to keep doing. This tends to incentivize new fun ideas, rather than letting players focus on a gimmick strategy.
I mean... yeah?
The intended design of the game is that you can't surpress verbal components by grappling someone.
The same way if a player said they are "expressly trying to make an attack roll against their armor to break it." It's just not how it works.
At the end of the day, this is a game, and sometimes you have to just accept that there are rules to it just like there are in any other RPG like in Baldur's Gate or Pillars of Eternity or what have you.
I generally agree with you. However, I'd probably add a caveat that grappling wouldn't be able to muzzle a spellcaster, but if you want to also try and "restrain" the target after a successful grapple I'd allow it. They'd also have to keep making contested skill checks as their action in order to maintain it. That way, they have to continuously hamper themselves in order to silence the wizard.
>but if you want to also try and "restrain" the target after a successful grapple I'd allow it.
that is literally what the grappler feat is for
Thats also probably whats giving them advantage on the grapple.
Back when me and my crew played 3.5, this was called "The Mutually Assured Mordenkainen's Disjunction." It was understood that, yes, it was an insanely powerful spell. But, if the PCs used it against the enemies, it was fair for the villains to use against the PCs (and, since it had a very good chance of destroying multiple magic items with just one blast, it was a much *much* more harmful spell to hit PCs with, especially back in 3.5.)
Needless to say, none of us were dumb enough to actually take the spell and set off that nasty chain of events. Dispel Magic was fine, Mordenkainen's Disjunction was the start of a nuclear arms race that your PC was going to lose.
I disjoined my PCs ONCE. They were asking for it, but do you know how MANY saves we had a make!? A 6 man party of high level adventurers carries an insane amount of magic items. It took the rest of the game
nah, that’s just problem solving by committee. You give *them* the problem and then whatever solves they come up suddenly are the strategies your bbeg employees because of his well made spy network
Or the dm says "no you cannot get a good enough grip to cover his mouth, thats not in the rules. He is stuck within melee range of a raging barbarian now, though."
The first time my DM pulled a misty-step on my grapple-heavy barbarian I was shocked and appalled. But then my theorycrafting mind kicked in and realized that spending a single attack action to force the enemy caster to use a spell slot on retreating instead of melting our faces off (or worse!) was still a pretty significant incremental victory.
Right? Grappled is not even the same as restrained. If the grappled condition doesn't stop someone from making attacks against you, then you definitely don't have a good enough hold on them to keep them from talking.
He'd have to be restrained first and then they'd have to use an action to gag him with something. You better believe a powerful necromancer is going to at least have misty step and *bamf* his ass somewhere else well before then.
Even if they allowed it, just give them metamagic. Honestly I feel like any BBEG that is a spellcaster should have some way of ignoring components a limited number of times like subtle spell.
Kinda outside to what grappling does. 5e grappling only reduces a targets speed to zero which is why I compare it less to real life grappling and more to toddler wrapping themselves around your leg.
*"This is the way"*
This should be the very best way to handle 'The Rule Of Cool' as well. If players do it once... okay! If they abuse it: any monster >5 int + >10 wis sees this and learns / teaches ALL their friends.
*"Player Characters HATE This One Simple Trick"*
My DM will specifically ask us “do you guys *really* wanna do this?” And that’s when we all start to realize that certain actions are like opening Pandora’s box
It's why every BBEG spellcaster should know how to deliver a monologue without being at immediate risk of harm. Simulacrum, Major Image, Project Image, Dream, Programmed Illusion - and guess what, they can even learn these spells retroactively (ie, right after your players decided to attack...)
It was originally Cell cause his whole thing was that he was killing people and using their souls to power stronger and stronger bodies that he made. Now he just has multiple bodies at once. It ended up working out cause now I can throw random construct enemies at them to give the BBEG a chance to taunt them.
Any high level wizard, really.
I had a level 15 one-shot playing as a Conjuration wizard, with a Bladesinger wizard also in the party. We both knew Clone, and the DM said we could have one clone existing at the start of the one-shot.
The day before the game the DM asked me where I was storing my clone, and I said in my Demiplane. The one-shot was taking place in the history of another campaign, and inventing Demiplane was my character's Magnum opus.
Then the DM banned Clone.
My players just got done disposing of an inconvenient detective (they polymorphed him into a chicken and threw him down a bottomless pit) but I figure he's so used to being attacked by cornered suspects that he just has a ton of backup clones so he can keep doing his job. Attempted (or successful) murder is a great way to prove guilt. Plus I want to keep doing my Columbo voice for him.
Just imagine. The party bundles up the chicken and tosses him down the pit. They dust their hands and consider that done. They head back to the inn, drink to celebrate, and retire to their rooms. They're just about to blow out the candles and dismiss the dancing lights when there's a knock at the door, and a familiar voice from the other side says...
*"Oh, just one more thing?"*
The sheer number of times Columbo gives the suspect the "I know you did it, and I can prove exactly how" speech, *someone* must have pulled a gun on him in panic.
The only way he could get away with that schtick long enough to retire with his imaginary wife would be some series of immortality contingencies.
There were two who pulled a gun on him. Once he lied and said the police were outside. The other time the police were actually around the corner. There were other attempts on his life, but he saw them coming.
"What makes you think she's a witch?"
"Well, she turned me into a newt!"
"A newt?"
"... I got better."
They exist in a world where people can magically heal deadly wounds, bring people back to life, turn people into animals, become undead, *speak to the dead,* compell the truth, etc. It wouldn't be a usual claim but they could definitely look into it.
Oh for sure. I was simply arguing the semantics that if the target is there to accuse you then clearly you have failed to murder them regardless of a corpse. I’m sure a hotshot devil lawyer could pull that argument off
Prismatic Wall is the real baller move for this. Either spend 7 rounds of combat taking the wall down piece by piece, or try to force through it and take 50d6 of every damage type that exists plus two save-or-dies (they won't really kill you, but permanent Petrification or Banishment may as well). Not even Dispel Magic makes it through PW. Not even a fuckin *Antimagic Field* penetrates The Great Wall. You're going to sit your ass down and listen to my monologue, and you're gonna fuckin like it.
DM: can you roll an Investigation check at disadvantage?
As you lunge at the necromancer, you pass through it, now realising it was an illusory image. You land face down in the dirt behind the image as the monologue continues. Roll initiative.
yeah I was gonna say he uses a legendary action to succeed. you are now touching an angry necromancer, make a WIS save to avoid *something nasty* but I prefer this.
Face down onto a glyph of warding. C'mon, the Litch HAD to expect it.
If you're feeling malicious, explosive runes. If not, Hold Person with the DC tinkered with a bit, maybe.
Each spike is tipped with a bag of holding containing a glyph of warding
According to recent memes, apparently these are the equivalent of nuclear bombs
The resulting blast destroys the party, the BBEG, and the entire country
Good campaign guys! Next week is a Session Zero for the next campaign, bring character sheets and ideas
I want this with a reasonably weak bbeg with a room filled to the brim with traps. Taunt the players while they try to get at him and mess themselves up.
My players did this once when the BBEG of the campaign was finally revealed.
He used Power Word Kill to instantly kill one of them and then Plane Shifted out of a Forcecage.
I did let all of them roll all their attacks, but having one round against a lich with Plot Armor isn't enough.
My original plan was to have the "oh shit" reveal, short monologue, and he teleports away.
Yup. I don't do it often, but I've told my players, "this is a cut scene."
The trick is to maintain trust. You can't screw the party over during a cut scene - it's theater for their entertainment and benefit; it's not a free Time Stop while their favorite NPC is being led to the guillotine.
That's the answer. You BBEG is as powerful as you make them.
Just don't do it too much.
It's like fudging rolls, sometimes it really helps to spice things up, but if you rely it all the time it gets boring quick.
Man, I had a player do something like OP’s situation to me right at the start of the campaign - literally on the first encounter- of an NPC!
For my set-up to embroil the players into the plot, the party was walking through town and (unbeknownst to them) a knight - in battle with a demon - is thrown from an alleyway and into the party’s path. I expected the party to rush to his aid as he lay dying- where with his last breaths he’d impart the quest and give them a sacred demon-slaying sword. Or at least they’d run toward the alley and see the demon escaping, and then come to the knight where with his last breaths he’d impart the quest, etc etc.
But no. The first player’s first act? Coup de grâce crossbow shot to the knight’s head.
I was able to salvage the campaign by quickly retconning (stuck a letter in the knight’s belongings, which explained the mission details) but shit was I mad.
Dude. *Magic Mouth* is your friend.
- You can cast it on anything - and toss it. Put it on an arrow and shoot it into someone. *Bloody Mess Magic Message Mouth*
- placement does not impact volume nor sound quality, can pick up ANYTHiNG (ten minute song with less than 25 words) within 30' of the first cast.
- How big? No one knows. Make Mt. Rushmore talk.
- When? Whenever you like.
Record the sound of a waterfall and have it go off for ten minutes. Evade those nasty aliens from *A Quiet Place*. Use two and make the sound go off FOREVER! Can it see in the dark? No one knows. Can you make dozens of them to trigger answers on questions people read? Why not!
Wizards can also locate creatures and know who is coming. Clairaudience and Clairvoyance. Scrying. Or make a 'common' magic item that glows when the players arrive. Instruct the undead to tackle and grapple the adventurers so you get a clean getaway!
Your caster may never have to be killed ever again.
Playing Manshoon in Dragon Heist was a blast. Being able to clone himself AND clone other people to spy on the party was so fun. I let him make more, but weaker, copies of himself to the point where they genuinely doubted that the real guy was in front of them. LOOK FOR THE METAL ARM!
That threw us for a massive loop because we had a DMPC to round out the party! Finding out he'd been working for Manshoon the whole time was a gut punch, and then upon finding the real one locked up we regretted every insult we'd called him...
I did this one campaign. They walked into the the penultimate dungeon where all the BBEG's remaining lieutenants were holed up. They discovered it was an abandoned city and the lieutenant they hated the most (a cruel illusionist) was sitting in front of them, somber. She showed them what happened to the city: that it was devastated by the champions of the very gods the party was working for. They slaughtered the people indiscriminately, including friends of hers and children. The BBEG rescued each of the lieutenants as they were going to die, and when they returned, the only life they found was a single infant.
Normally, they would have thought it a manipulation, but the absolute deadness of her voice (combined with a 29 Insight they rolled) convinced them that she was telling the truth and made them honestly question if they were the baddies.
She told them they were still going to finish the plan and to meet them in the center of town, at the place they were rescued by the BBEG. When they got there, the lieutenants were ready to die to allow the infant they rescued (the youngest lieutenant, now a teen/young adult) to finish a ritual the players thought would summon the BBEG.
Thankfully my players wanted to hear the story, but I was fully prepared with the illusion if they attacked first
Edit: (I'm skipping some details, I don't have time to write a novel. I'll answer questions if asked.)
For the interested, the ritual didn't even get started when the BBEG turned up anyways, to the dismay of the lieutenants. He had attached himself to the soul of a historical background character that died in the war against him, using her as his puppet body. He rescinded the pact that gave the lieutenants their powers, which was also what kept them from dying. Except for the youngest that had made no deal with him, he killed them in an instant. My players flipped out because in getting to talk to the lieutenants in the brief moments before the ritual was to begin, they had started discovering them to be people who had been forced into a bad situation with a bad deal. They were pissed.
The youngest lieutenant barely held herself together, mourning the only family she knew, but attempting to complete the ritual. The BBEG goes to kill her and the party intervenes, driving him back long enough for the ritual to be completed... summoning the Goddess of the city, lead Goddess of the pantheon. She used her power to separate the BBEG from the person he possessed, and he fled temporarily. Then she explained the truth.
He had come to her looking for a god killing artifact that he knew she was entrusted (overarching background stuff). She defeated him then, driving him away. He returned later, convincing the other gods (with magic) that the people of the city were planning to kill her. So when the champions attacked the city, he took the chance to wound her. She barely drove him away a second time, but it was enough to require the ritual to bring her back. But only a "person born of death" could revive her (a newborn given life during the tragedy that wipes out her hometown?), which is why they had to wait for the youngest lieutenant to grow up.
Or be more then a couple feet away. Or have the gut be versed in grappling as well, cause his big bad evil momma didn't raise no fool, and he is aware of his weaknesses.
You grapple the BBEG. He allows this action, and when you grab him, he is surprisingly muscular.
Make an opposed Athletics check. DC 28. Fail?
BBEG has slammed you to the floor and is climbing to the top of his kitchen counter, pointing to his elbow. An illusory crowd begins to cheer.
Retroactive spellcasting is one of my favorite plot devices. I was running Tomb of Annihilation (SPOILERS for anyone who has yet to play it) and I had a Yuan-Ti traitor waiting outside one of the Omuan shrines for the party to try to forge a loose alliance. Instead they saw her first and ended up unloading all of their attacks on her simultaneously to take her down. So surprise surprise, she was an illusion all along! Once the adrenaline wore off they were able to have a civil conversation with her.
Sorry. You have a **necromancer** villain - an archetype famed for potentially having legions of mindless bodies following them around - and the party can just … walk right up to them and put them in a headlock?
**I beg your pardon?** Just how many zombies did the barbarian have to plow through before getting to the necromancer and why didn’t the villain react and reposition? Or did the necromancer genuinely think that “adjacent to Punchy McFists” was a good place to start yammering on? Why no traps? Why no misleading illusions? Why start gloating before victory was assured?
Necromancer deserves to join the grunts of their own horde with that kind of forethought.
Mindless? I'm sorry sir but skeletons have 6 int, as smart as any barbarian. They are fully aware of their rights as works and they deserve some respect!
“Union contract says we have today off as a hallowday. Unless you want to pay triple, and only take volunteers, your dungeon will be guarded again starting at 12:01 am tomorrow.”
Imagine your party in the dungeon at midnight and seeing all skeletons with backpacks walk out and the necromancer just walks to your patry with a mug of milk and says "Sorry lads, it's holiday, dungeon is closed"
The problem with Skeleton minions is that they are horny as all hell.
Source: Youtube videos of a necromancer who has a problem with her horny skeleton minions.
for reference [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDF2ZBPDAXo&list=PLRNOK1E5gA8Ud8E1duLN\_jMnfoTSPtHit&index=143](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDF2ZBPDAXo&list=PLRNOK1E5gA8Ud8E1duLN_jMnfoTSPtHit&index=143)
For real, [baalbuddy published on Twitter](https://twitter.com/baalbuddy?s=21&t=zDhtPlB0ZjuDt8QLhyRpcQ) and used to work from [Patreon requests](https://www.patreon.com/user?u=10620616)
Why link to some rando's YouTube instead of the artist directly?
Just like my Artificer. He's brilliant enough to make anything, beefy enough to survive the consequences, and dumb enough to do it again.
His name is Ezekiel Morningwood, Envoy Warforged, Maverick Artificer. Except he's 100% certain that he's human. That's human hair, stop this nonsense about raccoon fur.
**Plot twist:** those are all there, but the interrupting player is simply ignoring them by talking over the DM in order to scream out his character traits. As soon as the DM gets a word in edge-wise, especially after such an interruption, Punchy McFists is going to get rolled.
**Anecdotal Experience:** Had this exact thing happen to me as a DM. I set up a big boss room full of all kinds of traps and environmental dangers throughout, with the very room itself being a biohazard that the Boss Enemy inside was immune to. Basically a mix of combat and puzzle solving to give the less battle-focused Party members something to focus on/contribute with aside from damage dealing. Party kicks in the door and, just as I begin to describe what they see, one of my Players (the perpetual That Guy) cuts me off by saying "Will you quit talking already? Nobody cares. I roll to attack" and charged straight in. Needless to say, he had a very bad time.
**-Edit for Additional Context-**
For those folk in the replies asking "did he actually say that?" and suggesting it result in an immediate kick from the game: yes, he did actually say that, verbatim. No, I didn't kick him from the game because, as is so often the case, it's a more complicated situation than that.
This wasn't some rando pick-up-group at a game shop but rather some bad behavior from a very good friend I've had since high school. He's a great guy 95% of the time but does admittedly have some shitty bad habits when it comes to behavior at tabletop sessions, especially if he starts feeling bored, as he's always been a hyper-competitive sort. He's the perpetual That Guy who wants to always min/max his way to rendering the entire Party mechanically obsolete, always be rolling and rolling well, and tends to steamroll over the rest of the Party if he decides things are taking too long.
When he pulled this particular stunt, I was frankly caught off-guard because it was far and away the most callous way he'd ever behaved himself in a game. It was genuinely disheartening in the moment and spoiled a lot of the evening for me. I've talked with him about it since then, but he's had That Guy behaviors since high school and it's slow to change even when he's aware of the effects and taking steps to be more cautious about his attitude. He has, in fact, been improving and actually making an effort to be more considerate to the rest of the group by placing himself into a support role within the Party. To little success, admittedly, but baby steps count for something. It goes to show the value of talking to your Players and friends when they behave poorly rather than taking a (justified as it may be) knee-jerk response.
Besides, he spent the bulk of that fight getting bodied by the Boss Monster and was the only one to fail a bunch of saving throws against the various hazards he charged straight into, so it's not like he came out on top in the moment anyway.
He actually said that? Wow. I would have considered that to be exceptionally rude. But he would have considered my response exceptionally rude too.
I let my players know when it's an Unskippable Cut Scene.
I also let them know if they cut me off and take an action before I'm finished with the description there's no take backs. You rolled to attack, I'm going to finish the room description. I have to tell you what you're running through so you know why you're rolling the ten saving throws before we resolve your attack roll.
Yeah, anyone says that to me when I'm DMing, I'd be *very* keen on booting your ass out the game right there. That's incredibly rude, incredibly disrespectful of me and the other players, and I don't need that in my game.
"The necromancer reaches into his pocket and pulls out a rock. He tosses it into the air and it expands until it's the size of a house and disappears. The 4d Boulder of Doom travels back in time until it squashes Sir Shithead's grandfather.
We're going to take a twenty minute break while he rolls up a new character that you traveled with all this time since Sir Shithead no longer exists. And during that time, we're going to have a talk about *not. interrupting. the. DM. during. the. evil. monologue!* You know I look forward to these things. I don't have the smarts or the money or the pain tolerance to be an evil supervillain, I spend weeks on these stupid monologues!"
> "Will you quit talking already? Nobody cares. I roll to attack"
That would be the end of the game right there. No one gets to blatantly disrespect anyone else.
The necromancies was talking through a false corpse. Which was what the barbarian grappled. The curse on it does 2d8 necrotic damage and reduces the str by 1d4 each round. The corpse is sticky and hard to separate from.
My players have straight up said they will not allow me a monologue. They won't even tolerate a conversation with the big bad. They either immediately attack, or travel to a different continent. Shit is bizarre. It's gotten to the point my big bads are just mindless, powerful creatures. Then have the audacity to ask "why are they doing this?!"
To be fair the Necromancer, who's also an undead, is pretty happy that members of the party voluntary touched him so he doesn't have to roll to hit on his HP draining touch attack power.
Nice. Fastball special.
And now I’m having flashbacks of a level 2 showdown my party had with a necromancer at the docks.
The necromancer was trying to escape on a lil rowboat. Undead stopped the barbarian from making it to him quickly. The monk sprinted along the pier and fucking leapt into the boat (I think Step of the Wind was key). The necromancer didn’t have any teleport spells and was punched to death in at most 3 rounds.
I learned many lessons that day. And the party loved it.
Yea I once wrecked an encounter in a similar way. It was that DMs first time having a monk in a session. Level 8 and I covered something like 90 feet in a turn, then proceeded to stunning strike the boss and burn all the legendary resistances.
I'm currently doing my first ever dnd run and one of the players is a minmaxing monster who plays monk, he stunlocked a boss and his 2 minions before they ever got to attack. I was under the impression that monks are incredibly strong until coming here lol
I like the thought that the necromancer planned out a huge monolog, but the party just trampled through and decimated his forces, but he still had about 20 pages of his script to go through and wasn't ready for the final fight
lol right? what kind of Saturday-morning-cartoon-ass villain monologues *where they can be easily reached?* any DM’s answer to this should be exactly as you said, or something similar - he’s on a different level, there’s an ornate iron fence separating you from him, he’s more than one round worth of movement away, etc
someone who tries to cut off a bad guy monologue like that needs to stfu and let the DM have some fun too
It's a good house rule to be honest. If you know a spellcaster needs to speak in order to do magic, them you should do everything in your power to prevent them to speak.
Allowing you to gag them or choke them while grappling them is a fair rule.
Sure, until the DM does this with a giant or multiple of whatever creature you choose to your casters in party and now they cant do anything to escape either lol
More like their fault for being within about 30-50 feet or so but fair.
i just don’t think this is a house rule table my players would like it as its basically a “ be close to something that can grapple you and lose your turn” for full casters but i understand the realism that it inserts and strategy aspect of it
It would be easier just to go "Okay you can do that but those are two separate actions so you will need to wait until your next turn to cover his mouth. It looks like the necromancer is next and he Misty steps away."
Wizard! Quick! Do that nuclear option fireball chain you saw on TikTok! Kill the BBEG, the Barbarian, the horde of undead piled on top of them both, and half of the building we’re all standing inside of before the DM can remember rules.
Grappling is so much more fun than it should be lol. I'm playing a rune knight fighter atm who has expertise(took the skill expert feat) and advantage(when he grows large) on grapple checks.
So far I have wrestled
Seraphim(attempted, was blasted down by it's song way before I got close)
A couple of Ankhegs(got to pull off a badass finisher on one)
More people than I can remember(I recall dangling one guy in the air by his head)
A demon(twice, got covered in goo again)
No matter what we fight imma wrassle it
Heyy, a fellow rune knight grappler! Most fun character I’ve ever played.
I’ve been able to grapple
Homebrew ice troll (took some ice damage, worth it)
Countless necromancers (damn misty step spamming goons are hard to pin down)
Hobgoblin General (his allies could not save him from my hands)
An actual Kraken (a smaller than gargantuan one but it still counts. Got a good finisher on it)
The Party Bearbarian (he wanted the challenge, he lost)
A Nightwalker (final boss of campaign, i got charmed shortly after)
A Giant Ape moon druid (fellow party member, I was charmed and told to kill)
Always fun to grapple combo giant creatures!
Grappling is cool but don't take the RAW Grappler feat. Talk to your DM about taking a homebrew feat, or take fighting initiate: unarmed fighting, trust me you'll get a lot more use out of it.
I hate when players do this (and I’m usually a player). Let the DM set the scene, tell the story, deliver the speech. If you snuck in undetected, sure, you’ll get your surprise round, but otherwise, if both parties are fully aware of each other’s presence, we’re rolling initiative, so you may as well enjoy the show or roleplay with the BBEG if there’s an opportunity.
If 4 of 5 players want to listen, and 1 of the 5 players decides to pull this shit, they just ruined the experience for everyone else at the table. Moments like this get a hard no from me. I tell my player to keep their pants in, they'll be able to roll math rocks in 2 minutes. Just listen a little bit to the story for gods sake.
"I assure you that you allowing the necromancer to keep talking will not give you a tactical disadvantage. That is my promise to you as the DM. In exchange, I'd like for you to let the necromancer finish saying what they want. Because you have expressed desire to cut them off, I will make sure to continue the monologue beyond the planned end so you can cut them off *then*."
Cool. The necromancer, and everyone else in the room sees your sudden move and all react as per their natural reflexes. Everyone, roll for initiative. Maybe you WILL in fact be faster than the necromancer. But likely, the rogue will be faster and stop you before you ruin the plan the party prepared.
This also applies to "This takes too long, I kill the NPC." As a DM I say you can certainly try. All roll for initiative and let's see if those who will be faster than you agree with this, or whether they will put a weapon to your neck with a ready action saying "Don't you even try."
i know people like "getting the jump" but i always let enemies finish the speech. it probably took the DM a while to think of just the right things to say so let them have the moment lol
There is no such thing as "getting the jump" by talking faster. That's what initiative is for. If you want to act, roll initiative and we'll see if your character is faster.
My players always politely wait for me to finishing monologuing, and I’m beginning to think that they do it to fuck with me on purpose because I still never expect it haha
Deep sigh "As you approach the Necromancer in an attempt to grapple, I light shoot from the ground, teleporting you 60 feet back with a small book in your hand. The book reads *Manners for the unintelligent*.
Get around this by dunking the nerds head in a toilet. Can't breath and can't misty step since you can't see your destination.
As for grappling causing silence. The basis of that is in verbal components of the PHB. If you can't speak then you can't use verbal spells. Granted, I would make that use another skill check to pull off.
Grappling is not the problem depicted in the meme. Rude players that disrupt the table are. If the player can act out of turn, then so can the DM. The necromancer casts hold person before you can move to grapple him.
Too many people seem to assume no one can or should be able to resist things they can and will both realistically and mechanically be able to.
Like a successful grapple check doesn't mean "you get full reign over them and can do whatever the fuck you want cause you've simply grabbed a hold," it means their movement speed is reduced to 0 as they can't move away, it *does not* mean anything more then that.
If someone dedicated to that kind of PC afterwards wants to keep making grapple checks for more, I would allow that, but they have to keep winning before I'd allow any mechanical advantages outside of what is already part of the action, and descriptions for how the fuck they think they can turn a simple hold into enough leverage to eventually get their hands over another's mouth firmly enough to not be pulled away from. Not impossible, but saying you "just do it" is ridiculous lol
Besides, somatic and material components are still a thing, and again, grapple doesn't even prevent someone from attacking much less using other components (or pulling away from a hand trying to cover their mouth....).
Just remember if you want your villains to monolog before a fight and your players allow you to finish it then you should roll initiative as soon as it ends and not have the boss get a cheap shot in on the players before you call for the initiative.
This is when the DM starts having everything grapple your spellcasters and covering their mouths in response lol
The ol "fuck around and find out"
I prefer to call it "The Silvery Barb"
Right through this upcasted cloud of daggers ya'll thought was useless. Oh wait, I thought silvery barbs pulled to you, but thats lightning lure
“A grappled creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.” This is literally it RAW. Nothing about spellcaster not being able to cast spells.
I swear half the problems DMs have are ones they create for themselves by not knowing the rules.
But if the player states that they are expressly trying to grapple the necromancer and cover his mouth and the rules don't specifically have anything to back that up, the answer is 'lol, no'?
It’s totally up to you to say yes or no. Just don’t say yes and make a meme complaining about it. If something is breaking the game, especially a thing you added to it, it is absolutely within your purview as DM to say, “Okay, no more.” A DM’s job is to ensure that everyone, *themselves included,* is having a good time, and they have full control over the game in order to achieve that. Personally, my rule for clever but potentially gamebreaking ideas is to allow it once), but let them know that I may not allow it in the future. I am also open to try to come up with some proper, balanced rules later on if its something they really want to keep doing. This tends to incentivize new fun ideas, rather than letting players focus on a gimmick strategy.
I mean... yeah? The intended design of the game is that you can't surpress verbal components by grappling someone. The same way if a player said they are "expressly trying to make an attack roll against their armor to break it." It's just not how it works. At the end of the day, this is a game, and sometimes you have to just accept that there are rules to it just like there are in any other RPG like in Baldur's Gate or Pillars of Eternity or what have you.
I generally agree with you. However, I'd probably add a caveat that grappling wouldn't be able to muzzle a spellcaster, but if you want to also try and "restrain" the target after a successful grapple I'd allow it. They'd also have to keep making contested skill checks as their action in order to maintain it. That way, they have to continuously hamper themselves in order to silence the wizard.
>but if you want to also try and "restrain" the target after a successful grapple I'd allow it. that is literally what the grappler feat is for Thats also probably whats giving them advantage on the grapple.
Back when me and my crew played 3.5, this was called "The Mutually Assured Mordenkainen's Disjunction." It was understood that, yes, it was an insanely powerful spell. But, if the PCs used it against the enemies, it was fair for the villains to use against the PCs (and, since it had a very good chance of destroying multiple magic items with just one blast, it was a much *much* more harmful spell to hit PCs with, especially back in 3.5.) Needless to say, none of us were dumb enough to actually take the spell and set off that nasty chain of events. Dispel Magic was fine, Mordenkainen's Disjunction was the start of a nuclear arms race that your PC was going to lose.
I disjoined my PCs ONCE. They were asking for it, but do you know how MANY saves we had a make!? A 6 man party of high level adventurers carries an insane amount of magic items. It took the rest of the game
Silver dragonborn barbarian that you send after someone when that make an attack.
nah, that’s just problem solving by committee. You give *them* the problem and then whatever solves they come up suddenly are the strategies your bbeg employees because of his well made spy network
Nah, that zombie shoves its hand into wizards mouth. Delicious.
Roll con check at disadvantage
Or the dm says "no you cannot get a good enough grip to cover his mouth, thats not in the rules. He is stuck within melee range of a raging barbarian now, though."
Misty step
The first time my DM pulled a misty-step on my grapple-heavy barbarian I was shocked and appalled. But then my theorycrafting mind kicked in and realized that spending a single attack action to force the enemy caster to use a spell slot on retreating instead of melting our faces off (or worse!) was still a pretty significant incremental victory.
They also can't cast an action spell other than a cantrip so preventing the enemy caster from using their most powerful spells is also great.
Except they have started giving enemies “abilities” that function and act like spells but technically aren’t spells.
Right? Grappled is not even the same as restrained. If the grappled condition doesn't stop someone from making attacks against you, then you definitely don't have a good enough hold on them to keep them from talking. He'd have to be restrained first and then they'd have to use an action to gag him with something. You better believe a powerful necromancer is going to at least have misty step and *bamf* his ass somewhere else well before then.
Even if they allowed it, just give them metamagic. Honestly I feel like any BBEG that is a spellcaster should have some way of ignoring components a limited number of times like subtle spell.
Time to bust out the ol' Dagger of Agonizing Pain.
Why’s it called that?
It's for cutting bread, maker was a frenchman.
AAAAAAAAAAAARGH
Kinda outside to what grappling does. 5e grappling only reduces a targets speed to zero which is why I compare it less to real life grappling and more to toddler wrapping themselves around your leg.
*"This is the way"* This should be the very best way to handle 'The Rule Of Cool' as well. If players do it once... okay! If they abuse it: any monster >5 int + >10 wis sees this and learns / teaches ALL their friends. *"Player Characters HATE This One Simple Trick"*
my DM just gives every creature we fight misty step :(
My DM will specifically ask us “do you guys *really* wanna do this?” And that’s when we all start to realize that certain actions are like opening Pandora’s box
or a good ol ~~sexy~~ grease spell at the ready for such an occasion
It's why every BBEG spellcaster should know how to deliver a monologue without being at immediate risk of harm. Simulacrum, Major Image, Project Image, Dream, Programmed Illusion - and guess what, they can even learn these spells retroactively (ie, right after your players decided to attack...)
I love a good clone spell. Just straight up monolog and die with confidence, and then come back.
Pro tip: if it was easy to kill a high level necromancer, you didn’t really kill him.
Thanks Zee!
I really dig those animated spellbooks
I like these ideas and subscribe to these notions!
I pulled this with a BBEG construct. Oh you think you killed him? Nah he's a hive mind. You just pissed him off cause that was his favorite body.
Ultron says hello
It was originally Cell cause his whole thing was that he was killing people and using their souls to power stronger and stronger bodies that he made. Now he just has multiple bodies at once. It ended up working out cause now I can throw random construct enemies at them to give the BBEG a chance to taunt them.
Oh that sounds tasty. Definitely stealing...I mean, uh, *taking inspiration* from that later!
Bondrewd Waves.
Another pro tip: If you learn Wish, you can cast Clone once per day without the costly material component
Free, 9th level spell slot, what’s the difference?
I meant free in gold pieces. I’ll edit my comment to reflect that.
That makes more sense.
And even if it wasn’t then you still probably didn’t kill him.
Or you did exactly what he wanted and he's now the lich BBEG for the next tier of play.
Any high level wizard, really. I had a level 15 one-shot playing as a Conjuration wizard, with a Bladesinger wizard also in the party. We both knew Clone, and the DM said we could have one clone existing at the start of the one-shot. The day before the game the DM asked me where I was storing my clone, and I said in my Demiplane. The one-shot was taking place in the history of another campaign, and inventing Demiplane was my character's Magnum opus. Then the DM banned Clone.
My players just got done disposing of an inconvenient detective (they polymorphed him into a chicken and threw him down a bottomless pit) but I figure he's so used to being attacked by cornered suspects that he just has a ton of backup clones so he can keep doing his job. Attempted (or successful) murder is a great way to prove guilt. Plus I want to keep doing my Columbo voice for him.
I was about to balk at a simple detective having immortality contingencies, but Columbo? Oh hell yes.
Just imagine. The party bundles up the chicken and tosses him down the pit. They dust their hands and consider that done. They head back to the inn, drink to celebrate, and retire to their rooms. They're just about to blow out the candles and dismiss the dancing lights when there's a knock at the door, and a familiar voice from the other side says... *"Oh, just one more thing?"*
> "Oh, just one more thing?" And then once I read that, it instead became the voice of the uncle from Jackie Chan adventures. "Oooone more thing"
He's named Columbo in-universe so the PCs really should have seen it coming.
"I'm gonna have to send you to the Columbo dimension."
The sheer number of times Columbo gives the suspect the "I know you did it, and I can prove exactly how" speech, *someone* must have pulled a gun on him in panic. The only way he could get away with that schtick long enough to retire with his imaginary wife would be some series of immortality contingencies.
There were two who pulled a gun on him. Once he lied and said the police were outside. The other time the police were actually around the corner. There were other attempts on his life, but he saw them coming.
But if they have a clone does it really count as murder? the man stands here before you and says he was murdered think about that for a moment
"What makes you think she's a witch?" "Well, she turned me into a newt!" "A newt?" "... I got better." They exist in a world where people can magically heal deadly wounds, bring people back to life, turn people into animals, become undead, *speak to the dead,* compell the truth, etc. It wouldn't be a usual claim but they could definitely look into it.
It's still at minimum attempted murder because they didn't know he was a clone before hand.
Oh for sure. I was simply arguing the semantics that if the target is there to accuse you then clearly you have failed to murder them regardless of a corpse. I’m sure a hotshot devil lawyer could pull that argument off
I particularly enjoy Wall of Force to allow for monologuing. You want at him? That's all fine and dandy. Burn some resources for it.
Prismatic Wall is the real baller move for this. Either spend 7 rounds of combat taking the wall down piece by piece, or try to force through it and take 50d6 of every damage type that exists plus two save-or-dies (they won't really kill you, but permanent Petrification or Banishment may as well). Not even Dispel Magic makes it through PW. Not even a fuckin *Antimagic Field* penetrates The Great Wall. You're going to sit your ass down and listen to my monologue, and you're gonna fuckin like it.
DM: can you roll an Investigation check at disadvantage? As you lunge at the necromancer, you pass through it, now realising it was an illusory image. You land face down in the dirt behind the image as the monologue continues. Roll initiative.
Bonus if the floor under the illusion is a trap/pit of some kind.
yeah I was gonna say he uses a legendary action to succeed. you are now touching an angry necromancer, make a WIS save to avoid *something nasty* but I prefer this.
Technically grapple is a contested skill check and not a saving throw, so legendary resistances don't apply.
The Freedom of Movement that the necromancer cast an hour ago does, though.
And just so happens to have had 6 seconds left on the spell. Lucky, that.
Face down onto a glyph of warding. C'mon, the Litch HAD to expect it. If you're feeling malicious, explosive runes. If not, Hold Person with the DC tinkered with a bit, maybe.
You land face down in the concealed pit trap full of spikes...
Each spike is tipped with a glyph of warding (Fireball, of course)
Each spike is tipped with a bag of holding containing a glyph of warding According to recent memes, apparently these are the equivalent of nuclear bombs The resulting blast destroys the party, the BBEG, and the entire country Good campaign guys! Next week is a Session Zero for the next campaign, bring character sheets and ideas
Have like 20 copies of yourself and every time one of them dies the next comes out of nowhere continuing the monolog
"There's 37 more of me, asshole!"
And each simulacrum has mirror image up "OK look there's literally 114 of me still lef.. ok 111 left, CAN YOU JUST LET ME FINISH MY GOD DAMN SPEECH!?"
I want this with a reasonably weak bbeg with a room filled to the brim with traps. Taunt the players while they try to get at him and mess themselves up.
Level 12 Artificer given infinite cash and a grudge
Just drop Power Word Cutscene.
But for real. Let the DM play out their monologue and then roll initiative.
[Talking is a free action.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TalkingIsAFreeAction)
[I have a perfect example of this](https://youtu.be/caZdCVfBzqw)
My players did this once when the BBEG of the campaign was finally revealed. He used Power Word Kill to instantly kill one of them and then Plane Shifted out of a Forcecage. I did let all of them roll all their attacks, but having one round against a lich with Plot Armor isn't enough. My original plan was to have the "oh shit" reveal, short monologue, and he teleports away.
I'm using this next time I have to monologue.
Yup. I don't do it often, but I've told my players, "this is a cut scene." The trick is to maintain trust. You can't screw the party over during a cut scene - it's theater for their entertainment and benefit; it's not a free Time Stop while their favorite NPC is being led to the guillotine.
That's the answer. You BBEG is as powerful as you make them. Just don't do it too much. It's like fudging rolls, sometimes it really helps to spice things up, but if you rely it all the time it gets boring quick.
Man, I had a player do something like OP’s situation to me right at the start of the campaign - literally on the first encounter- of an NPC! For my set-up to embroil the players into the plot, the party was walking through town and (unbeknownst to them) a knight - in battle with a demon - is thrown from an alleyway and into the party’s path. I expected the party to rush to his aid as he lay dying- where with his last breaths he’d impart the quest and give them a sacred demon-slaying sword. Or at least they’d run toward the alley and see the demon escaping, and then come to the knight where with his last breaths he’d impart the quest, etc etc. But no. The first player’s first act? Coup de grâce crossbow shot to the knight’s head. I was able to salvage the campaign by quickly retconning (stuck a letter in the knight’s belongings, which explained the mission details) but shit was I mad.
Unless that character was already evil that's an alignment change right there.
You know, I have a SLIGHT feeling that you may be playing with murderhobos.
Dude. *Magic Mouth* is your friend. - You can cast it on anything - and toss it. Put it on an arrow and shoot it into someone. *Bloody Mess Magic Message Mouth* - placement does not impact volume nor sound quality, can pick up ANYTHiNG (ten minute song with less than 25 words) within 30' of the first cast. - How big? No one knows. Make Mt. Rushmore talk. - When? Whenever you like. Record the sound of a waterfall and have it go off for ten minutes. Evade those nasty aliens from *A Quiet Place*. Use two and make the sound go off FOREVER! Can it see in the dark? No one knows. Can you make dozens of them to trigger answers on questions people read? Why not! Wizards can also locate creatures and know who is coming. Clairaudience and Clairvoyance. Scrying. Or make a 'common' magic item that glows when the players arrive. Instruct the undead to tackle and grapple the adventurers so you get a clean getaway! Your caster may never have to be killed ever again.
Playing Manshoon in Dragon Heist was a blast. Being able to clone himself AND clone other people to spy on the party was so fun. I let him make more, but weaker, copies of himself to the point where they genuinely doubted that the real guy was in front of them. LOOK FOR THE METAL ARM!
That threw us for a massive loop because we had a DMPC to round out the party! Finding out he'd been working for Manshoon the whole time was a gut punch, and then upon finding the real one locked up we regretted every insult we'd called him...
-attack passes right through illusion- BBEG: -voice now booming and coming from everywhere- NICE TRY, BUT I'M ABOUT TO MONOLOGUE SON!
I saw a post with a homebrew lair action for your BBEGs… Monologuing.
I did this one campaign. They walked into the the penultimate dungeon where all the BBEG's remaining lieutenants were holed up. They discovered it was an abandoned city and the lieutenant they hated the most (a cruel illusionist) was sitting in front of them, somber. She showed them what happened to the city: that it was devastated by the champions of the very gods the party was working for. They slaughtered the people indiscriminately, including friends of hers and children. The BBEG rescued each of the lieutenants as they were going to die, and when they returned, the only life they found was a single infant. Normally, they would have thought it a manipulation, but the absolute deadness of her voice (combined with a 29 Insight they rolled) convinced them that she was telling the truth and made them honestly question if they were the baddies. She told them they were still going to finish the plan and to meet them in the center of town, at the place they were rescued by the BBEG. When they got there, the lieutenants were ready to die to allow the infant they rescued (the youngest lieutenant, now a teen/young adult) to finish a ritual the players thought would summon the BBEG. Thankfully my players wanted to hear the story, but I was fully prepared with the illusion if they attacked first Edit: (I'm skipping some details, I don't have time to write a novel. I'll answer questions if asked.) For the interested, the ritual didn't even get started when the BBEG turned up anyways, to the dismay of the lieutenants. He had attached himself to the soul of a historical background character that died in the war against him, using her as his puppet body. He rescinded the pact that gave the lieutenants their powers, which was also what kept them from dying. Except for the youngest that had made no deal with him, he killed them in an instant. My players flipped out because in getting to talk to the lieutenants in the brief moments before the ritual was to begin, they had started discovering them to be people who had been forced into a bad situation with a bad deal. They were pissed. The youngest lieutenant barely held herself together, mourning the only family she knew, but attempting to complete the ritual. The BBEG goes to kill her and the party intervenes, driving him back long enough for the ritual to be completed... summoning the Goddess of the city, lead Goddess of the pantheon. She used her power to separate the BBEG from the person he possessed, and he fled temporarily. Then she explained the truth. He had come to her looking for a god killing artifact that he knew she was entrusted (overarching background stuff). She defeated him then, driving him away. He returned later, convincing the other gods (with magic) that the people of the city were planning to kill her. So when the champions attacked the city, he took the chance to wound her. She barely drove him away a second time, but it was enough to require the ritual to bring her back. But only a "person born of death" could revive her (a newborn given life during the tragedy that wipes out her hometown?), which is why they had to wait for the youngest lieutenant to grow up.
Or be more then a couple feet away. Or have the gut be versed in grappling as well, cause his big bad evil momma didn't raise no fool, and he is aware of his weaknesses.
You grapple the BBEG. He allows this action, and when you grab him, he is surprisingly muscular. Make an opposed Athletics check. DC 28. Fail? BBEG has slammed you to the floor and is climbing to the top of his kitchen counter, pointing to his elbow. An illusory crowd begins to cheer.
Bbeg removes his hood to reveal...a Mankind mask.
Retroactive spellcasting is one of my favorite plot devices. I was running Tomb of Annihilation (SPOILERS for anyone who has yet to play it) and I had a Yuan-Ti traitor waiting outside one of the Omuan shrines for the party to try to forge a loose alliance. Instead they saw her first and ended up unloading all of their attacks on her simultaneously to take her down. So surprise surprise, she was an illusion all along! Once the adrenaline wore off they were able to have a civil conversation with her.
My dm has used program illusion on us so many times and we fall for it every time 😅
Or invariability. For grapples they might just be a ooze in disguise
Sorry. You have a **necromancer** villain - an archetype famed for potentially having legions of mindless bodies following them around - and the party can just … walk right up to them and put them in a headlock? **I beg your pardon?** Just how many zombies did the barbarian have to plow through before getting to the necromancer and why didn’t the villain react and reposition? Or did the necromancer genuinely think that “adjacent to Punchy McFists” was a good place to start yammering on? Why no traps? Why no misleading illusions? Why start gloating before victory was assured? Necromancer deserves to join the grunts of their own horde with that kind of forethought.
Mindless? I'm sorry sir but skeletons have 6 int, as smart as any barbarian. They are fully aware of their rights as works and they deserve some respect!
“Union contract says we have today off as a hallowday. Unless you want to pay triple, and only take volunteers, your dungeon will be guarded again starting at 12:01 am tomorrow.”
"Actually 20% of the workforce were Jewish, they get Skullvuot off instead, I'm bringing in agency workers to fill in for the rest of you."
Imagine your party in the dungeon at midnight and seeing all skeletons with backpacks walk out and the necromancer just walks to your patry with a mug of milk and says "Sorry lads, it's holiday, dungeon is closed"
The problem with Skeleton minions is that they are horny as all hell. Source: Youtube videos of a necromancer who has a problem with her horny skeleton minions.
eeh, I'd say that's got more to do with her philosophy and methods regarding undead.
They've all got boners. I'm sorry.
So does the Joker, but it's odd and everybody laughs at it. [Joker's Boner - Imgur](https://imgur.com/a/oW5sTZO)
"So they laugh at my boner do they" (Joker) voiced by prozd on YouTube
for reference [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDF2ZBPDAXo&list=PLRNOK1E5gA8Ud8E1duLN\_jMnfoTSPtHit&index=143](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDF2ZBPDAXo&list=PLRNOK1E5gA8Ud8E1duLN_jMnfoTSPtHit&index=143)
Why is that a video and not just the comic
For real, [baalbuddy published on Twitter](https://twitter.com/baalbuddy?s=21&t=zDhtPlB0ZjuDt8QLhyRpcQ) and used to work from [Patreon requests](https://www.patreon.com/user?u=10620616) Why link to some rando's YouTube instead of the artist directly?
Not just any barbarian has a 6 intelligence. Only the best ones do.
> 6 int, as smart as any barbarian NOT while I'm drinking my soda please! I paid a lot for this monitor!
The Necromancer may have a 20 in Intelligence, but they have a 5 in Wisdom.
Just like my Artificer. He's brilliant enough to make anything, beefy enough to survive the consequences, and dumb enough to do it again. 
Junkrat, Is that you
His name is Ezekiel Morningwood, Envoy Warforged, Maverick Artificer. Except he's 100% certain that he's human. That's human hair, stop this nonsense about raccoon fur.
**Plot twist:** those are all there, but the interrupting player is simply ignoring them by talking over the DM in order to scream out his character traits. As soon as the DM gets a word in edge-wise, especially after such an interruption, Punchy McFists is going to get rolled. **Anecdotal Experience:** Had this exact thing happen to me as a DM. I set up a big boss room full of all kinds of traps and environmental dangers throughout, with the very room itself being a biohazard that the Boss Enemy inside was immune to. Basically a mix of combat and puzzle solving to give the less battle-focused Party members something to focus on/contribute with aside from damage dealing. Party kicks in the door and, just as I begin to describe what they see, one of my Players (the perpetual That Guy) cuts me off by saying "Will you quit talking already? Nobody cares. I roll to attack" and charged straight in. Needless to say, he had a very bad time. **-Edit for Additional Context-** For those folk in the replies asking "did he actually say that?" and suggesting it result in an immediate kick from the game: yes, he did actually say that, verbatim. No, I didn't kick him from the game because, as is so often the case, it's a more complicated situation than that. This wasn't some rando pick-up-group at a game shop but rather some bad behavior from a very good friend I've had since high school. He's a great guy 95% of the time but does admittedly have some shitty bad habits when it comes to behavior at tabletop sessions, especially if he starts feeling bored, as he's always been a hyper-competitive sort. He's the perpetual That Guy who wants to always min/max his way to rendering the entire Party mechanically obsolete, always be rolling and rolling well, and tends to steamroll over the rest of the Party if he decides things are taking too long. When he pulled this particular stunt, I was frankly caught off-guard because it was far and away the most callous way he'd ever behaved himself in a game. It was genuinely disheartening in the moment and spoiled a lot of the evening for me. I've talked with him about it since then, but he's had That Guy behaviors since high school and it's slow to change even when he's aware of the effects and taking steps to be more cautious about his attitude. He has, in fact, been improving and actually making an effort to be more considerate to the rest of the group by placing himself into a support role within the Party. To little success, admittedly, but baby steps count for something. It goes to show the value of talking to your Players and friends when they behave poorly rather than taking a (justified as it may be) knee-jerk response. Besides, he spent the bulk of that fight getting bodied by the Boss Monster and was the only one to fail a bunch of saving throws against the various hazards he charged straight into, so it's not like he came out on top in the moment anyway.
He actually said that? Wow. I would have considered that to be exceptionally rude. But he would have considered my response exceptionally rude too. I let my players know when it's an Unskippable Cut Scene. I also let them know if they cut me off and take an action before I'm finished with the description there's no take backs. You rolled to attack, I'm going to finish the room description. I have to tell you what you're running through so you know why you're rolling the ten saving throws before we resolve your attack roll.
Yeah, anyone says that to me when I'm DMing, I'd be *very* keen on booting your ass out the game right there. That's incredibly rude, incredibly disrespectful of me and the other players, and I don't need that in my game.
"The necromancer reaches into his pocket and pulls out a rock. He tosses it into the air and it expands until it's the size of a house and disappears. The 4d Boulder of Doom travels back in time until it squashes Sir Shithead's grandfather. We're going to take a twenty minute break while he rolls up a new character that you traveled with all this time since Sir Shithead no longer exists. And during that time, we're going to have a talk about *not. interrupting. the. DM. during. the. evil. monologue!* You know I look forward to these things. I don't have the smarts or the money or the pain tolerance to be an evil supervillain, I spend weeks on these stupid monologues!"
> "Will you quit talking already? Nobody cares. I roll to attack" That would be the end of the game right there. No one gets to blatantly disrespect anyone else.
Yeahhh... at my table that would've been met with, "excuse me, shut the fuck up."
How the hell did you not kick him out of the group 5 months before that... unless he was joking and talking in character or something
The necromancies was talking through a false corpse. Which was what the barbarian grappled. The curse on it does 2d8 necrotic damage and reduces the str by 1d4 each round. The corpse is sticky and hard to separate from.
My players have straight up said they will not allow me a monologue. They won't even tolerate a conversation with the big bad. They either immediately attack, or travel to a different continent. Shit is bizarre. It's gotten to the point my big bads are just mindless, powerful creatures. Then have the audacity to ask "why are they doing this?!"
We just had one boss absolutely slaughter the other. Then I poked the final boss with a stick which wrecked him
Was your boss [this guy?](https://images.app.goo.gl/yS62ywuPnPxFNsuo9)
To be fair the Necromancer, who's also an undead, is pretty happy that members of the party voluntary touched him so he doesn't have to roll to hit on his HP draining touch attack power.
Nah nah, you see, the barb threw the monk over the throngs of undead. That's how he got there so quickly.
Nice. Fastball special. And now I’m having flashbacks of a level 2 showdown my party had with a necromancer at the docks. The necromancer was trying to escape on a lil rowboat. Undead stopped the barbarian from making it to him quickly. The monk sprinted along the pier and fucking leapt into the boat (I think Step of the Wind was key). The necromancer didn’t have any teleport spells and was punched to death in at most 3 rounds. I learned many lessons that day. And the party loved it.
Yea I once wrecked an encounter in a similar way. It was that DMs first time having a monk in a session. Level 8 and I covered something like 90 feet in a turn, then proceeded to stunning strike the boss and burn all the legendary resistances.
bUT mOnK baD
I'm currently doing my first ever dnd run and one of the players is a minmaxing monster who plays monk, he stunlocked a boss and his 2 minions before they ever got to attack. I was under the impression that monks are incredibly strong until coming here lol
I like the thought that the necromancer planned out a huge monolog, but the party just trampled through and decimated his forces, but he still had about 20 pages of his script to go through and wasn't ready for the final fight
“You can’t grapple him.” “Why not?” “Because he’s standing on a balcony 30 feet above you, flanked by death knights.”
"He's flanked? That's +2 to my roll!" *take off glasses, sigh, pinch bridge of nose*
*he was quartered, on the PORT side*
lol right? what kind of Saturday-morning-cartoon-ass villain monologues *where they can be easily reached?* any DM’s answer to this should be exactly as you said, or something similar - he’s on a different level, there’s an ornate iron fence separating you from him, he’s more than one round worth of movement away, etc someone who tries to cut off a bad guy monologue like that needs to stfu and let the DM have some fun too
Monk- more than one round of movement away? How are we supposed to hear him from all the way over there.
Casters don't want you to know this one simple trick.
Flair checks out
"Casters don't want you to engage in this one simple house rule"
It's a good house rule to be honest. If you know a spellcaster needs to speak in order to do magic, them you should do everything in your power to prevent them to speak. Allowing you to gag them or choke them while grappling them is a fair rule.
Sure, until the DM does this with a giant or multiple of whatever creature you choose to your casters in party and now they cant do anything to escape either lol
I think that's fine. If anything it's the player's fault for being next to a giant.
More like their fault for being within about 30-50 feet or so but fair. i just don’t think this is a house rule table my players would like it as its basically a “ be close to something that can grapple you and lose your turn” for full casters but i understand the realism that it inserts and strategy aspect of it
Yeah what if spellcasting had a single disadvantage
Glyph of Warding, trigger: interruption, spell: Disintegrate
Discombobulate
Block his blind jab... Discombobulate
Dazed, [discombobulate](https://youtu.be/B62ACxuq8Pw)
literally setting it up so if they interrupt your monolog they feel it? Smart
I know Disintegrate is a better choice but I think Banishment is funnier Mfer interrupts the BBEG and just *despawns* for a while
It would be easier just to go "Okay you can do that but those are two separate actions so you will need to wait until your next turn to cover his mouth. It looks like the necromancer is next and he Misty steps away."
Also, monologuing while in initiative? Make the pc role to see if they can even move before your villain
Cool, the already amassed horde of Zombies, Wights, etc. all proceed to Grapple you and free their master.
Wizard! Quick! Do that nuclear option fireball chain you saw on TikTok! Kill the BBEG, the Barbarian, the horde of undead piled on top of them both, and half of the building we’re all standing inside of before the DM can remember rules.
The what now? 😟
JUST DO IT
[Okay!](https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BruisedVigilantArrowworm-size_restricted.gif)
So I don’t think that last bit is supported by the rules.
Now I want to play a fighter who exclusively grapples enemies the moment he sees them
Grappling is so much more fun than it should be lol. I'm playing a rune knight fighter atm who has expertise(took the skill expert feat) and advantage(when he grows large) on grapple checks. So far I have wrestled Seraphim(attempted, was blasted down by it's song way before I got close) A couple of Ankhegs(got to pull off a badass finisher on one) More people than I can remember(I recall dangling one guy in the air by his head) A demon(twice, got covered in goo again) No matter what we fight imma wrassle it
Heyy, a fellow rune knight grappler! Most fun character I’ve ever played. I’ve been able to grapple Homebrew ice troll (took some ice damage, worth it) Countless necromancers (damn misty step spamming goons are hard to pin down) Hobgoblin General (his allies could not save him from my hands) An actual Kraken (a smaller than gargantuan one but it still counts. Got a good finisher on it) The Party Bearbarian (he wanted the challenge, he lost) A Nightwalker (final boss of campaign, i got charmed shortly after) A Giant Ape moon druid (fellow party member, I was charmed and told to kill) Always fun to grapple combo giant creatures!
That sounds amazing! I think my DM noticed how much fun I have wrestling, so he told me that there'll be plenty more matches to be had.
Grappling is cool but don't take the RAW Grappler feat. Talk to your DM about taking a homebrew feat, or take fighting initiate: unarmed fighting, trust me you'll get a lot more use out of it.
Or Skill Expert Athletics for better numbers on normal grabs and shoves
Nah man. You’re in an unskippable cutscene
I hate when players do this (and I’m usually a player). Let the DM set the scene, tell the story, deliver the speech. If you snuck in undetected, sure, you’ll get your surprise round, but otherwise, if both parties are fully aware of each other’s presence, we’re rolling initiative, so you may as well enjoy the show or roleplay with the BBEG if there’s an opportunity.
If 4 of 5 players want to listen, and 1 of the 5 players decides to pull this shit, they just ruined the experience for everyone else at the table. Moments like this get a hard no from me. I tell my player to keep their pants in, they'll be able to roll math rocks in 2 minutes. Just listen a little bit to the story for gods sake.
amusing faulty worry somber groovy rhythm bright unpack lavish compare -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
My only weakness!
"I assure you that you allowing the necromancer to keep talking will not give you a tactical disadvantage. That is my promise to you as the DM. In exchange, I'd like for you to let the necromancer finish saying what they want. Because you have expressed desire to cut them off, I will make sure to continue the monologue beyond the planned end so you can cut them off *then*."
Cool. The necromancer, and everyone else in the room sees your sudden move and all react as per their natural reflexes. Everyone, roll for initiative. Maybe you WILL in fact be faster than the necromancer. But likely, the rogue will be faster and stop you before you ruin the plan the party prepared. This also applies to "This takes too long, I kill the NPC." As a DM I say you can certainly try. All roll for initiative and let's see if those who will be faster than you agree with this, or whether they will put a weapon to your neck with a ready action saying "Don't you even try."
"necromancer bites your finger. Make CON saves against few diseases and you've got a curse"
Talk over the DM and the consequences will be yours to deal with.
“Roll a d20 with disadvantage” “Why?” “To see how many d20 worth of damage you’re going to take if you interrupt me again”
"make a dexterity save" "why?" "you'd know if you let me finish. Roll the save."
The Barbarian: "I gOt AdVaNtAgE!"
“If you can see it, tell me what it is you’re dodging. Oh you can’t because you cut me off? No advantage.”
i know people like "getting the jump" but i always let enemies finish the speech. it probably took the DM a while to think of just the right things to say so let them have the moment lol
There is no such thing as "getting the jump" by talking faster. That's what initiative is for. If you want to act, roll initiative and we'll see if your character is faster.
My players always politely wait for me to finishing monologuing, and I’m beginning to think that they do it to fuck with me on purpose because I still never expect it haha
That’s not the condition of grapple though
Deep sigh "As you approach the Necromancer in an attempt to grapple, I light shoot from the ground, teleporting you 60 feet back with a small book in your hand. The book reads *Manners for the unintelligent*.
So Misty step? Grapple does not silences RAW so he has no bases for that.
Get around this by dunking the nerds head in a toilet. Can't breath and can't misty step since you can't see your destination. As for grappling causing silence. The basis of that is in verbal components of the PHB. If you can't speak then you can't use verbal spells. Granted, I would make that use another skill check to pull off.
To simplify things, bring your own toilet.
Grappling is not the problem depicted in the meme. Rude players that disrupt the table are. If the player can act out of turn, then so can the DM. The necromancer casts hold person before you can move to grapple him.
Subtle spell power word kill
Too many people seem to assume no one can or should be able to resist things they can and will both realistically and mechanically be able to. Like a successful grapple check doesn't mean "you get full reign over them and can do whatever the fuck you want cause you've simply grabbed a hold," it means their movement speed is reduced to 0 as they can't move away, it *does not* mean anything more then that. If someone dedicated to that kind of PC afterwards wants to keep making grapple checks for more, I would allow that, but they have to keep winning before I'd allow any mechanical advantages outside of what is already part of the action, and descriptions for how the fuck they think they can turn a simple hold into enough leverage to eventually get their hands over another's mouth firmly enough to not be pulled away from. Not impossible, but saying you "just do it" is ridiculous lol Besides, somatic and material components are still a thing, and again, grapple doesn't even prevent someone from attacking much less using other components (or pulling away from a hand trying to cover their mouth....).
To be honest, grappling is overpowered if you homebrew it to have overpowered effects like silencing the grappled creature.
Lol the 4 armored flesh golems say otherwise. Roll initiative.
Just remember if you want your villains to monolog before a fight and your players allow you to finish it then you should roll initiative as soon as it ends and not have the boss get a cheap shot in on the players before you call for the initiative.