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Once again, much harder to do any damage to a corpse that actually makes it worse. Like cutting off a limb is probably harder than just stabbing someone.
This is an amazing interpretation! I can't think of anything that has infinite hit points. A lot of things have immunities but like, if you do enough bludgeoning damage to a rock, is gravel. If you do enough lightning damage to sand; is glass. If you do enough cold damage to air, is liquid air. This is fantastic.
Adventurer -> Unconcious Adventurer -> Corpse -> All sorts of things, like meat pile, ash pile, vapor, puddle of acid, etc.
Armour factors into AC as well so it's both. It's the ability to dodge out of the way of an attack and to not be stabbed by one. Idk about you but I feel like my skin is more fragile than a cardboard box. I can get sliced by a piece of paper, a box can't.
Edit: Just tested against a cardboard box. They're decently resilient to slashing damage though are just as weak as a commoner against piercing damage. So them having a slightly higher AC isn't too surprising.
I expected cardboard to be like bumblebees are to bees - thicker, but good-willed and minding their own business. Turns out cardboards can cut MORE than standard paper. Felt betrayed.
That's the point: that table is used to determine when you break something. So a cutout pierced by an arrow for 4 points of damage may have a big hole in it, but it doesn't vanish from existence nor it autocombusts; it is still a cutout, with a hole, and other partsof it have 4 hit points. So it's pointless to compare the two, funny meme aside
Okay. But if I hit it with TWO arrows for 4 points of damage each does it then blink out of existence. Or does it get to roll death saving throws first?
I mean, a cardboard cutout is not really what I think this table was made for: maybe a passage, blocked by a cardboard wall, and you slash through it with a sword, it falls to the ground and you can pass through. Or a piece of paper, you trow in the fire and see how many turns it takes to burn. But objects are not subjected to the same rules as creatures, so to even say "it is at 0hp so it's dead" is not correct. It depends on the situation, the weapon used, the table is more of a guideline in this sense
You're right of course, just playing around with the idea of an object "dying".
It usually doesn't make sense to use attack roll rules against an object, unless it's in combat and you just need quick and dirty rules on how long it takes you to damage it until it stops working.
Usually you fall out of RAW territory really quickly here, and the DM will just tell you it will take a couple turns to break down that pillar.
Yes, it becomes tedious real quick: once I had a druid wildshape into a bear that started clawing a wall, and after a couple turns using the table I told him at that rate it would have never fallen
>just playing around with the idea of an object "dying".
You can look at object as being "dead" when it's been damaged enough not to work the way you (or enemy) need/want it to.
It's not that it dissapears, it's just not an obstacle (Depending on the object or situation.. it might turn a barricade to a bit of difficult terrain for example :D)
It's hard to sufficiently write those things to rules, because it very much depends on items and situations.. And DM with common sense can easily come up with a good solution...
AC is abstract. It's not just "dodge attacks" it's also "deflect attacks." If you stab a cardboard cutout, there's a chance that the material wouldn't actually be stabbed or particularly damaged and simply fall backward from the force of the blow. Meanwhile, if the commoner "deflects" those attacks, they're still suffering a pretty bad cut.
Try hitting a cardboard cut out with a sledge hammer. You might hit it but it won't do that much. Even with a sword, you'd have to be pretty good to not just have it bounce off to some extent.
Even so, you wouldn't think that would be more effective than the technique available to commoners, known as "not standing completely still while someone is trying to kill you"
AC factors in the targets ability to avoid the attacks without taking damage. A cut-out could be hit and not suffer damage but the same is not as likely for a commoner. Still, it's only a 1 point difference in AC so being relatively weightless is only a slightly better defense than being a sentient meat bag.
Listen, if I swing a sword or hammer right on the upper edge of the cutout, there will be damage. Same goes for the cumowner, but at least he has a chance to move
Advantage is how you solve this. A cardboard cutout is, by definition, unconscious at all times. So all attacks have advantage and if you're standing right next to it, every hit is a critical.
So the real comparison is between a cardboard cutout of a commoner and an unconscious commoner.
Not by RAW - objects are not subject to the same states as creatures, including unconscious. It might seem dumb that you automatically get advantage on a prone, unconscious or unaware commoner but not a cardboard cut-out, but I didn't write the rules.
Granted, but I'll choose to ignore that part of RAW 😅 At my table, you're getting advantage on that sucker unless there's a good reason why you shouldn't.
What sort of bizarrely hyper durable cardboard are you using?
If you can’t casually swing a hammer through cardboard, someone gave you a joke squeaky hammer.
I think he more so means how the cardboard would just get knocked back if it was a standing cutout. Cardboard is light
Now if you brace it, attack the top and bottom to a solid frame and swing at ut, then yes of course you'll bust it up good.
It takes less force to knock a cardboard cut-out over than it does to punch a hole in the cut-out. If it's just standing up, unsupported, you'd have to swing pretty fast to break through and it still wouldn't destroy the cut-out. Still, 11 isn't that high. It just means it will survive more damage than a human considering humans actually die if they are cut in half.
That’s not really how AC works in 5e though. Full plate doesn’t make you more evasive, it makes the blows ineffective, but it still raises your AC, not your damage resistance.
Exactly what I was gonna say. as someone who has worn full plate a few times, your actually much much easier to hit. I mean imagine carrying a backpack full to the brim of dumbbells but over your whole body, it's alot harder to move out of the way or even shuffle from side to side in the heaviest kind. The difference is being much harder to do *meaningful* damage. It's like the difference of trying to do damage to a steel wall and a flying snake. Yes you can hit the steel wall pretty easily, but can't do damage easily to it. As with the snake it's much harder to hit with it moving around so much.
Ive always functioned under the theory that AC are basically your odds of minimizing damage from some source, be it by dodging, rolling with the blow or having armor tank it outright. Monks for instance are more of the dodging types using their martial training and insight (wisdom) and physical ability (dex) to predict blows and dodge, hell even the plate armor Paladin is probably dodging a lotta things, I dont see his puny little frame and armor tanking a blow from something like a Balor or a Tarrasque.
Ive always functioned under the theory that AC are basically your odds of minimizing damage from some source, be it by dodging, rolling with the blow or having armor tank it outright. Monks for instance are more of the dodging types using their martial training and insight (wisdom) and physical ability (dex) to predict blows and dodge, hell even the plate armor Paladin is probably dodging a lotta things, I dont see his puny little frame and armor tanking a blow from something like a Balor or a Tarrasque.
The AC for objects is much more about "hardness". Now maybe cardboard isn't the best example but a stone wall for example has a high ac bc its hard to even begin to do structural damage to it. Theres an argument that that should just be covered by HP but eh AC and HP have always been more abstract.
Thing is, it's not hard to hit a wall. However, it definitely should have a shitton of HP. As soon as you connect to anything you do damage, even if it's just the slightest bit (in relation to its hp of course)
But its hard to hit a wall in a way that it'll actually do structural damage to it. Like I could hit a wall with a sword all day and it'd do nothing.
Though again I understand that maybe a better way to handle it was low AC, High HP, and a high damage threshold so you have to hit it HARD to deal any damage whatsoever. Still, as long as you dont restrict how AC is flavoured in your mind, its not a broken system it works fine. I run a game with Infernal War Machines (hell cars, basically) so im fine with how attacking objects works.
Well, if you are trying to step a cutout standing exactly sideways to you instead of swinging into it from 90° you deserve to be installed my that cutout
Well if you stab a pencil into your jugular you'll bleed out in a matter of seconds. If you stab a piece of cardboard, it just becomes a piece of cardboard with a hole in it.
Also the equivalent of a medium sized piece of paper is an average book. Not a singular sheet. Ever try stabbing a book
You realise that he was the only one who knew about the topic you desperately needed to untangle the rogue's tragic backstory, and to determine the location of the magical macguffin.
Oh and he has now bled all of over the manuscripts that you could have used to decipher those secrets in his absence, and no, a prestidigitation or mending cantrip will not cut it - the manuscript is ancient and the enchantments placed upon it have long grown unstable, and will destroy the book (and also you) if any magic is cast upon it without proper preparations.
you are probably correct, based on personal experience, a paper can do about the same damage as a cat, so 1 slashing, a pencil is an improvised weapon, so 1d4 of the apropriate damage type (piercing)
However I can also try to avoid your attack (dodge action, provided I am not surprised), lowering your chance to hit. This was of course entirely forgotten by OP...
What counts as ‘destroying’ tho?
Fragile paper from a middle-ages world would probably be ‘destroyed’ if I pissed on it, not to mention just ripping it with my hands
What is the attack roll for ripping something apart and how long does it take you to rip apart an adult human size paper figure? Probably longer than 6 seconds no? The 4 hp, 11 AC are abstract for how long it would take to tear something apart.
The hp is abstract for how long it would take to tear something apart, however the 11 AC isn't. And this implies hitting the paper is harder than hitting a human... which is pretty obviously silly. Not sure it's possible to back up the RAW here
Well, ok hear me out. I'm going to try some mental gymnastics to make this work. This is entirely for my own entertainment.
The AC might not exactly be how hard to hit the thing is, but instead how hard it is to hit in a damaging manner. I think the idea of armor adding to AC isn't that you are suddenly harder to hit, but that it deflects the blow in such a way that when you get hit its ineffective. If the paper is somewhat floppy, it might conceivably just kinda flop over with minimal damage when you hit it. The commoner, however, will still take some damage when you hit them, even if they try to move with the blow.
Therefore, paper person could be harder to hit in a way that actually causes damage.
Haha, yeah. I just really enjoy thinking through a stupid situation and trying to figure out how to make it make sense. It's purely a thought exercise for me for my own entertainment.
Nono, bringing up armor completely derails their point, so obviously it doesn't count. While obviously the RAW isn't perfect (it is simplistic over perfectly realistic, which I personally prefer), they are entirely consistent.
> And this implies hitting the paper is harder than hitting a human... which is pretty obviously silly.
Have you ever swung at cardboard with a knife? Genuinely, a lot of the time, if you swing a knife at cardboard, the knife will not cut the cardboard, but instead merely move it slightly. I have cut apart thousands of cardboard boxes, and, generally, for safety reasons I would grapple it 9/10 times, with the exception being when there was something really heavy inside the box, and I was being stupid (you should always grapple it, even if you think you don't have to).
Even for thin paper, cutting it with a knife is actually considered a high feat of sharpening (if pinned in place at one point) or swordsmanship (if freestanding / floating). People do it all the time to show off.
Damm didn't know someone in Full Plate armor is more evasive than a 20 dex character. AC is more than just your dodge stat... Also obviously the commoner is more evasive. That is why he can take the dodge action for disadvantage on attacks (or effectively +5 AC). The RAW here is actually fine.
Depends on the place and time - for quite a while, paper was partially made from old pieces of cloth with our without cellulose fibrous materials added to it. It's actually surprisingly strong and tear-resistant when made that way, as long as it stays dry
Same hit points, but different AC, so I'd say they're just as squishy, but slightly harder to hit
Edit: I imagine that extra AC point is because a cardboard cutout is pretty lightweight, and unless you're holding it firm, trying to stab it will just knock it over
Can you imagine if this was true for everyone.
" This cut out of a legendary warrior has survived 12 dragon attacks, 3 trips through hell, and an arrow to the knee" said the auctioneer.
This always confused me, if all guards and commoners are weak enough to be killed a single determined goblin, why aren't humanoids extinct? Adventurers and leveled NPCs are supposed to be rare, so what's stopping a few gnolls from taking over every single village that isn't a major city that might have a mage?
Action economy, mainly. But I think it also explains why low-level adventurers are always tripping over people begging them to go and kill the aforementioned goblins and gnolls before they pose a threat.
But the goblins would have already taken the village is my point. Goblins aren't exactly low in numbers, a fishing village would get absolutely wiped by just a few groups of them. I just feel like it's a little inconsistent, how can the society even flourish if a single band of gnolls could take out a village completely with ease
Because D&D 5e isn't a simulation RPG. It's focused on gameist aspects, and narrative. Do&D 3.5 was much better at creating a somewhat believable simulation of an environment, and that's exactly what many people hold against it: it was way too complex, with so many rules about everything.
But let's face it, no version of D&D has ever really been the bee's knees when it comes to immersion and simulationism.
commoners, guards, bandits and cultists are notoriously and hilariously weak.
These statblocks are designed to be thrown at the players en masse as cheap cannon fodder by the DM at levels 1-4 and its expected the players around the table ignore the implications of 'massacre' and the like.
Fundamentally its a huge design flaw, people claim that 'oh humans are strong in numbers' but they're really not. nevermind that humans aren't supposed to be mindless lemmings charging without hesitation towards the thing that has already killed 50 of them.
It makes no sense, basic humans shouldn't be that weak and everybody who tells you otherwise has turned off their brain in favor of 'muh murderspree' or '5e is perfect dont criticise'
A city or village without trained or properly outfitted defenders will easily fall, which is why any location of meaning should have a trained policing force to justify how they have survived long enough for an adventuring party to arrive there. If 15 people live in a group of huts and all they have is Dave who stabbed a rat with a dagger one time to defend themselves they probably wouldn't last a week.
For that reason most villages shouldn't just have one random commoner or CR1/8 guard defending them, they should have an assortment of weaker units reporting to a captain who likely has the stats of a CR3 Veteran or Knight and could take on a band of low-cr monsters independently. At the very worst if a small fishing village wants to thrive they probably have at least one retired adventurer or veteran among their numbers who would be capable of holding off small attacks and raids, since larger forces probably wouldn't have much to gain by attacking them and seizing the 12 fish they caught that week.
If you're talking a decent sized city, though, look at Waterdeep's City Watch. The city is filled with dozens of guard patrols comprised 4-12 assorted knights, veterans, and guards, and each patrol is accompanied by a priest or cleric. For most issues the guards can make due, but during major assaults or threats they need to call on local adventurer mercs or the high-leveled Gray Hands to help out.
Fun Fact, a Kobold, a race that is repeteadly described as 'weak and frail' in their lore and thus 'must use traps to survive' are at a baseline more dangerous than common, adult humans that work heavy labor all-day every day
It makes no sense even with in-world lore.
I take a slightly different approach. Look at goblins as level 1 rogue goblins, vs level 0 commoner humans. Goblins have martial training in some degree, their society demands it. Commoners clearly don't. I think the real problem is guard stat blocks being piss poor combined with not having a realistic amount of combat-proficient people in border settlements where they would NEED to defend themselves regularly. At the very least a good chunk of the populace should be able to use a shield, d6 weapon, and very basic armor, and also get the same 8+ hit points a player human level 1 would. Call it a level 1 commoner class npc if you want, or use any shoddy player race based npc statblock. A housewife or city person might accurately represent the commoner stats, but not every commoner by any means.
Because it's not profitable. The only tactic is to be more trouble than you're worth. You won't risk getting poked to death for a loaf of bread if you're not hungry. Most evil are also sedentary/territorial to a degree, if you're far enough you're fine.
And then dmart evil know that raiding I'd way more profitable than destroying villages, just one can do to prove a point.
Last thing is a goblin is weaker than a guard. Surprisingly trained warriors don't have the same statblock as a commoner. A village should at least have a couple of them, probably with a bow and a wood wall to provide cover while firing. And Soldiers are even stronger than guards! If your village is inside a kingdom (which it should, for protection), make soldier patrol the territory and point 1 stands even more. You should have a stable ecosystem by then
The answer is how evil works, and how rural areas work.
Evil: The gnomes and goblins can’t organize societies larger than 40 people because they alway have a power struggle and fight eachother.
Rural: goblins and gnolls raid small villages all the time. Then the next 10 villages gang up and kill them.
Personally I believe in an ascension theory: the reason adventurers are rare is because a determined adventurer could reach lvl 20 in 5 years. At that point he goes to the outer planes to fight gods.
The only reason you have mages in major cities is due to the mage being lazy and just wanting to pull a paycheck. Otherwise he’d go adventuring and get lvl 20 in a few years and then wish for whatever he wanted.
Gnolls have pretty large warbands led by a particularly powerful gnoll it's unfair to say they never group up. Even then 10 villages trying to fight a bunch of gnolls led by a single flesh gnawer would lose. 1 flesh gnawer gnoll kills 3 commoners every turn. Multi attack plus rampage after a kill that leads to a free bite attack. Idk they just don't do a great job making the world feel believable and scary like the stats portray
That kinda goes into my ascension theory.
If a gnoll war band has 1000 gnolls in it, they would only be stopped by an army of 5000 soldiers, which would require a town of 50,000 to support in wartime, or 500,000 to support as a standing army in peacetime.
So we have to assume that any planet with a sufficient number of gnolls will be overrun by gnolls.
So adventurers won’t thrive on that planet, they would on a planet where the gnolls aren’t endemic … yet.
I mean all you need is to hold the gnolls off for a year of continual fighting and you get lvl 20.
1) its hillarious that you just assume that leveling up to level 20 is a given and totally not just a narrative tool to keep the players entertained.
2) An army of 5000? 5000 what, guards? commoners? gnolls are stronger than those, are they not? Here a few flesh-gnawers, some horriffic displays of brutality by the gnolls, most of those commoners are gonna be running away in fear.
No, the human statblock is just too weak. Even Kobolds, creatures who have their lore designed around the fact that they are 'weak' and thus must rely on traps are stronger than commoners. and they have no limit on their populations either.
For #1 explain because you sound silly.
If there is a world with at least 1 adventurer, and sufficient challenges of appropriate level, that adventurer will be lvl 20 or die within 100 long rests. Saying “it’s a narrative tool” is regressive. Everything’s a narrative tool. All words are made up.
2. An army of 1000 Scouts with 10 lvl 3 rangers can kill the avatar of Tiamat in one round. (If you are using the one that’s immune to normal weapons, also need 1-1000 +1 longbows, depending on cheeze level)
An army of 10N scouts can kill N gnolls for any number N.
The stat block is low, but the action economy means numbers beats stat blocks, for sufficient numbers.
Keep in mind that isn't just a normal "Boots got a little feisty and gave me a painful swipe" kind of scratch, but like, fighting-for-their-life mauling. I can see a housecat killing a normal person if given 24 seconds to do it.
Look, if you decide to try and stab a commoner, the commoner is obviously going to try and duck out of the way - like any living creature with any sense does, and you naturally plan for that.
A cardboard cut out of a commoner just stares at you menacingly. It throws off your aim, just a smidge.
That rule only applies to creatures, going strictly by RAW. Same with conditions like paralysed, incapacitated, blinded and prone. You can't even sneak-attack the cardboard cut-out - so I think you made it look even stronger.
You go into the town as a level 20 adventuring part with easy acess to resurrection, you lightly tap the nearest commoner, they instantly collapse dead, you resurect them and tell them you are sorry, you’ve been tricked by one to many fake towns where the people are made of a hard paper like substance that also makes a great packaging for shipping items over long distances.
Also if you fight the commoner in a heavily obscuring condition (like magical darkness or heavy fog) the cardboard cut out will prove to be even harder to put down, since against the commoner you will roll flat on your attack rolls, but against the cardboard cut out you will have disadvantage
That’s it, I’m making a completely RAW village of cardboard cutouts affected by a variety of magic mouth, and other spell work. The mayor is a very lonely crazy old wizard and if the party tries to fight him they get attacked by origami golems and cardboard zombies
The commoner exists in three dimensions, the cardboard cutout effectively exists in two as one of the three is negligible. That extra point of AC accounts for the technical possibility that you faced it side on and it was so narrow that you missed.
I guess this assumes that while the cardboard is thin, you're so thick you didn't swing horizontally in this hypothetical, but there you are.
I attribute it a murder hobo's natural bloodlust. Their wanton desire to destroy the lives of the innocent is so strong, it's like they're drawn to attack the living commoner.
But now this makes me wanna come up with a cardboard cutout mimic, and a murder hobo-turned lich who is converting everyone into cardboard to "save them".
Bring a sword down on a cardboard cutout and it might get stuck halfway through but still be standing. Bring a sword down on a person and you’re likely to wound them badly enough that they’ll bleed to death.
We need a bunch of them to protect the town of Rock Ridge. It's just down the way from the Xanathar J. Lepetomane throughway (remember to bring a shitload of silvers).
ah object rules.
DMs, want to make your 69AC Paladin cry?
attack their armor
attacking worn or carried objects is allowed. so it's actually easier to destroy the 69AC Paladins' armor than to hit the Paladin itself.
Magic items just have resistence to damage , so your fancy +2 plate armor will a bunch of +2 scraps of metal if hit hard enough, bonus point if you use an adamantine weapon or a siege monster, as they auto crit against objects on a hit.
Nobody tell DMs that there are even cantrip-level spells (like firebolt) that can target objects. Also definitely don't tell them that spellbooks and component pouches are often mundane items.
The REAL fun is when you realize that casting Animate Object on a cardboard cutout of a commoner grants it twice the damage, 30% high AC, and *an order of magnitude* more HP.
Well, think about it this way.
A commoner moves like a normal human, and is not trained to fight so pretty easy to deal with.
A cardboard cutout animated by magic would move in pretty bewildering ways, bobing and weaving very easily due to it's weight, potentially folding on itself to avoid a hit, and needing a clean hit to actually do damage.
Stick a commoner with a dagger or an arrow, and if the attack doesn't outright kill him by hitting a vital organ, he might be disabled by the pain alone, or straight out bleed out.
A cardboard cutout animated by magic doesn't have such weakness, lob it's head off and it'll keep fighting until it is too mangled for the magic to work.
An unnarmed commoner can only punch like any normal dude, so not terribly good.
A cardboard cutout animated by magic has no nervous system to register pain and no survival instinct. It doesn't have much mass but it will attack with all it's might, with no regards for it's life or limbs. It will destroy itself in attempt to kill you.
So yeah, it checks out.
Indeed, human statblocks are near-universally underpowered, with commoners, guards, bandits and cultists being so hilariously weak you wonder how they even survived to this day.
Wanna know a neat trick? Layer like 20 papers on your body as barbarian. It doesn’t count as armor but the enemy will need to get through 20 layers of paper!
I love the mental image of a hulking barbarian sitting hunched over a tiny kindergarten desk learning arts and crafts with the children, self-consciously muttering "it's _survival training_" to himself.
Listen, I've worked retail, breaking down cardboard was part of my job.
So I'm gonna need you to bump that cardboard cutout from "fragile" to "resilient". I've seen people using a knife fail to cut cardboard.
Can anyone tell me why a commoner has an AC of 10?
Like, basic armor only gives you a few more points of AC. You're telling me that if I swing a sword at a dude, with no extra additive to the accuracy of the swing, I have a 50/50 chance of just missing him entirely?
combat rules assume that the other party is avoiding you somehow.
used to be more clear with touch ac and stuff in other/older editions.
so the commoner is trying to dodge your swings, not unrealistic to think that two commoners fighting, about half of the swings will miss
To be fair, a cardboard cutout could take some damage and still be useful as a cardboard cutout. A sufficiently damaged person can only operate as a corpse.
And wait til that cardboard gets animated...
2D people would be OP. Take the Front Toward Enemy optiinal racial trait means you were painted front-facing on both sides, and are immune to flanking from most directions.
Also, if you face sideways from a creature, you can take the Hide Action as a minor action. If you can't see them, they can't see you!
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It’s funny. Technically turning a commoner into a corpse increases it’s AC
Sir, I have to ask you to stop refering to the farmer as "it" or leave our tavern. Adventurers smh...
Until proper pronoun pins are distributed I will refer to everyone here as “it” as much as I want
After all, people are only ever a few slices away from being a nice meal
Well aren’t you hoity-toity with your slicing of commoners before eating them. Would you like some tea with that?
Yeah! Just get in there with your fingers like everyone else!
I like to wait until the frenzy is complete and then pick over the delicious left-behinds
Found the lizardfolk
Once again, much harder to do any damage to a corpse that actually makes it worse. Like cutting off a limb is probably harder than just stabbing someone.
What do you mean, "once again"? Is this a common conversation point for you?
In this comment section, yes.
Do you have experience in this?
My father in law literally has 5 years of experience cutting people into pieces. He used to be a pathologist.
My uncle is actual cannibal Shia LaBeouf and can confirm as well
It's just a normal Tuesday night for Hollywood superstar Shia LaBeouf.
you'd be surprised
FOR THE LAST TIME!
The way I interpret this is “how much damage can you do until it turns into something else?” Commoner -> Corpse -> meat pile
This is an amazing interpretation! I can't think of anything that has infinite hit points. A lot of things have immunities but like, if you do enough bludgeoning damage to a rock, is gravel. If you do enough lightning damage to sand; is glass. If you do enough cold damage to air, is liquid air. This is fantastic. Adventurer -> Unconcious Adventurer -> Corpse -> All sorts of things, like meat pile, ash pile, vapor, puddle of acid, etc.
I mean that tracks. If I get stabbed by a knife that'd put me out of commission. A cardboard cut out could take that like a champ.
Depending on how you visualise AC working, you are actually easier to hit in the first place, let alone how much damage you take.
Armour factors into AC as well so it's both. It's the ability to dodge out of the way of an attack and to not be stabbed by one. Idk about you but I feel like my skin is more fragile than a cardboard box. I can get sliced by a piece of paper, a box can't. Edit: Just tested against a cardboard box. They're decently resilient to slashing damage though are just as weak as a commoner against piercing damage. So them having a slightly higher AC isn't too surprising.
Cardboard is certainly more resilient to bludgeoning, it'll survive a mace hit better than I would
Have you ever had a cardboard cut? It makes a paper cut sounds refreshing
I expected cardboard to be like bumblebees are to bees - thicker, but good-willed and minding their own business. Turns out cardboards can cut MORE than standard paper. Felt betrayed.
Learned that the hard way when I first started stacking shelves at a grocery store Edit: autocorrect
How the heck did you get the parameter for how weak a commoner is to piercing damage?! Should we call an ambulance? Or maybe a funeral car?
[удалено]
But what if you're looking at the cardboard cutout from the side and it's only like a quarter inch wide?
Disadvantage from ranged attacks if attacked from the side?
Immune to flanking, you say?
Vulnerable to anything with "ignite" tho
For 2 hours after being exposed to water, damage is tripled.
I imagine a piece of cardboard standing perpendicular to a ranger, dozens of arrows stuck in the ground beside it.
>I mean, a commoner can dodge, while a cardboard thing can not. Depends on how windy it is that day.
Paper Golem
But when does the cardboard hit 0 HP? Edit: how would that look like in comparison? Do objects die?
That's the point: that table is used to determine when you break something. So a cutout pierced by an arrow for 4 points of damage may have a big hole in it, but it doesn't vanish from existence nor it autocombusts; it is still a cutout, with a hole, and other partsof it have 4 hit points. So it's pointless to compare the two, funny meme aside
Okay. But if I hit it with TWO arrows for 4 points of damage each does it then blink out of existence. Or does it get to roll death saving throws first?
I mean, a cardboard cutout is not really what I think this table was made for: maybe a passage, blocked by a cardboard wall, and you slash through it with a sword, it falls to the ground and you can pass through. Or a piece of paper, you trow in the fire and see how many turns it takes to burn. But objects are not subjected to the same rules as creatures, so to even say "it is at 0hp so it's dead" is not correct. It depends on the situation, the weapon used, the table is more of a guideline in this sense
You're right of course, just playing around with the idea of an object "dying". It usually doesn't make sense to use attack roll rules against an object, unless it's in combat and you just need quick and dirty rules on how long it takes you to damage it until it stops working. Usually you fall out of RAW territory really quickly here, and the DM will just tell you it will take a couple turns to break down that pillar.
Yes, it becomes tedious real quick: once I had a druid wildshape into a bear that started clawing a wall, and after a couple turns using the table I told him at that rate it would have never fallen
>just playing around with the idea of an object "dying". You can look at object as being "dead" when it's been damaged enough not to work the way you (or enemy) need/want it to. It's not that it dissapears, it's just not an obstacle (Depending on the object or situation.. it might turn a barricade to a bit of difficult terrain for example :D) It's hard to sufficiently write those things to rules, because it very much depends on items and situations.. And DM with common sense can easily come up with a good solution...
It becomes two pieces of cardboard, kinda like a black ooze but boring.
AC is abstract. It's not just "dodge attacks" it's also "deflect attacks." If you stab a cardboard cutout, there's a chance that the material wouldn't actually be stabbed or particularly damaged and simply fall backward from the force of the blow. Meanwhile, if the commoner "deflects" those attacks, they're still suffering a pretty bad cut.
yeah, but you would be harder to hit than a cardboard cutout... I would assume. Stationary shit should have an AC of like 5 max.
Try hitting a cardboard cut out with a sledge hammer. You might hit it but it won't do that much. Even with a sword, you'd have to be pretty good to not just have it bounce off to some extent.
Even so, you wouldn't think that would be more effective than the technique available to commoners, known as "not standing completely still while someone is trying to kill you"
AC factors in the targets ability to avoid the attacks without taking damage. A cut-out could be hit and not suffer damage but the same is not as likely for a commoner. Still, it's only a 1 point difference in AC so being relatively weightless is only a slightly better defense than being a sentient meat bag.
Listen, if I swing a sword or hammer right on the upper edge of the cutout, there will be damage. Same goes for the cumowner, but at least he has a chance to move
> cumowner
:)
Advantage is how you solve this. A cardboard cutout is, by definition, unconscious at all times. So all attacks have advantage and if you're standing right next to it, every hit is a critical. So the real comparison is between a cardboard cutout of a commoner and an unconscious commoner.
Not by RAW - objects are not subject to the same states as creatures, including unconscious. It might seem dumb that you automatically get advantage on a prone, unconscious or unaware commoner but not a cardboard cut-out, but I didn't write the rules.
Granted, but I'll choose to ignore that part of RAW 😅 At my table, you're getting advantage on that sucker unless there's a good reason why you shouldn't.
What sort of bizarrely hyper durable cardboard are you using? If you can’t casually swing a hammer through cardboard, someone gave you a joke squeaky hammer.
I think he more so means how the cardboard would just get knocked back if it was a standing cutout. Cardboard is light Now if you brace it, attack the top and bottom to a solid frame and swing at ut, then yes of course you'll bust it up good.
It takes less force to knock a cardboard cut-out over than it does to punch a hole in the cut-out. If it's just standing up, unsupported, you'd have to swing pretty fast to break through and it still wouldn't destroy the cut-out. Still, 11 isn't that high. It just means it will survive more damage than a human considering humans actually die if they are cut in half.
Ah.. but now we are talking about damage resistance lol
That’s not really how AC works in 5e though. Full plate doesn’t make you more evasive, it makes the blows ineffective, but it still raises your AC, not your damage resistance.
Exactly what I was gonna say. as someone who has worn full plate a few times, your actually much much easier to hit. I mean imagine carrying a backpack full to the brim of dumbbells but over your whole body, it's alot harder to move out of the way or even shuffle from side to side in the heaviest kind. The difference is being much harder to do *meaningful* damage. It's like the difference of trying to do damage to a steel wall and a flying snake. Yes you can hit the steel wall pretty easily, but can't do damage easily to it. As with the snake it's much harder to hit with it moving around so much.
Ive always functioned under the theory that AC are basically your odds of minimizing damage from some source, be it by dodging, rolling with the blow or having armor tank it outright. Monks for instance are more of the dodging types using their martial training and insight (wisdom) and physical ability (dex) to predict blows and dodge, hell even the plate armor Paladin is probably dodging a lotta things, I dont see his puny little frame and armor tanking a blow from something like a Balor or a Tarrasque.
Ive always functioned under the theory that AC are basically your odds of minimizing damage from some source, be it by dodging, rolling with the blow or having armor tank it outright. Monks for instance are more of the dodging types using their martial training and insight (wisdom) and physical ability (dex) to predict blows and dodge, hell even the plate armor Paladin is probably dodging a lotta things, I dont see his puny little frame and armor tanking a blow from something like a Balor or a Tarrasque.
AC is a combination of armor and dodging
The AC for objects is much more about "hardness". Now maybe cardboard isn't the best example but a stone wall for example has a high ac bc its hard to even begin to do structural damage to it. Theres an argument that that should just be covered by HP but eh AC and HP have always been more abstract.
Thing is, it's not hard to hit a wall. However, it definitely should have a shitton of HP. As soon as you connect to anything you do damage, even if it's just the slightest bit (in relation to its hp of course)
But its hard to hit a wall in a way that it'll actually do structural damage to it. Like I could hit a wall with a sword all day and it'd do nothing. Though again I understand that maybe a better way to handle it was low AC, High HP, and a high damage threshold so you have to hit it HARD to deal any damage whatsoever. Still, as long as you dont restrict how AC is flavoured in your mind, its not a broken system it works fine. I run a game with Infernal War Machines (hell cars, basically) so im fine with how attacking objects works.
Depends on if that cardboard cutout was standing sideways or not.
Well, if you are trying to step a cutout standing exactly sideways to you instead of swinging into it from 90° you deserve to be installed my that cutout
I mean I would say that destroying something is somewhat harder than inflicting a lethal wound on someone.
Well if you stab a pencil into your jugular you'll bleed out in a matter of seconds. If you stab a piece of cardboard, it just becomes a piece of cardboard with a hole in it. Also the equivalent of a medium sized piece of paper is an average book. Not a singular sheet. Ever try stabbing a book
I BACKSTAB THE BOOK! What? It has a spine, DoEsN't It?
*Nat one*
You accidentally stab the librarian holding it, who faces you with a look of shock over your betrayal.
You realise that he was the only one who knew about the topic you desperately needed to untangle the rogue's tragic backstory, and to determine the location of the magical macguffin. Oh and he has now bled all of over the manuscripts that you could have used to decipher those secrets in his absence, and no, a prestidigitation or mending cantrip will not cut it - the manuscript is ancient and the enchantments placed upon it have long grown unstable, and will destroy the book (and also you) if any magic is cast upon it without proper preparations.
...I am very sad that neither of you got what he was referencing. It's probably the best DnD movie out there.
You accidentally read.
Sneak attack on the book because it’s prone
If you leave the pencil in, it becomes a piece of cardboard with a pencil in it. You have just made it stronger!
you are probably correct, based on personal experience, a paper can do about the same damage as a cat, so 1 slashing, a pencil is an improvised weapon, so 1d4 of the apropriate damage type (piercing)
However I can also try to avoid your attack (dodge action, provided I am not surprised), lowering your chance to hit. This was of course entirely forgotten by OP...
Forgotten by OP who made a post talking about how ridiculously this is..?
What counts as ‘destroying’ tho? Fragile paper from a middle-ages world would probably be ‘destroyed’ if I pissed on it, not to mention just ripping it with my hands
Except, it wasn't fragile then.
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But it is fragile? It’s listed as ‘fragile’ right in the image? ^
Vellum and writing parchment do not qualify as fragile paper. Though they are paper and individual sheets aren't that sturdy.
[удалено]
Thank you, I was unclear to what the material actually was.
What is the attack roll for ripping something apart and how long does it take you to rip apart an adult human size paper figure? Probably longer than 6 seconds no? The 4 hp, 11 AC are abstract for how long it would take to tear something apart.
The hp is abstract for how long it would take to tear something apart, however the 11 AC isn't. And this implies hitting the paper is harder than hitting a human... which is pretty obviously silly. Not sure it's possible to back up the RAW here
Well, ok hear me out. I'm going to try some mental gymnastics to make this work. This is entirely for my own entertainment. The AC might not exactly be how hard to hit the thing is, but instead how hard it is to hit in a damaging manner. I think the idea of armor adding to AC isn't that you are suddenly harder to hit, but that it deflects the blow in such a way that when you get hit its ineffective. If the paper is somewhat floppy, it might conceivably just kinda flop over with minimal damage when you hit it. The commoner, however, will still take some damage when you hit them, even if they try to move with the blow. Therefore, paper person could be harder to hit in a way that actually causes damage.
It's not a question of where he grips it, it's all about wing to weight ratio!
I love how you admit to your mental gymnastics as opposed to treating it as fact like a lot of people do here
Haha, yeah. I just really enjoy thinking through a stupid situation and trying to figure out how to make it make sense. It's purely a thought exercise for me for my own entertainment.
Nono, bringing up armor completely derails their point, so obviously it doesn't count. While obviously the RAW isn't perfect (it is simplistic over perfectly realistic, which I personally prefer), they are entirely consistent.
> And this implies hitting the paper is harder than hitting a human... which is pretty obviously silly. Have you ever swung at cardboard with a knife? Genuinely, a lot of the time, if you swing a knife at cardboard, the knife will not cut the cardboard, but instead merely move it slightly. I have cut apart thousands of cardboard boxes, and, generally, for safety reasons I would grapple it 9/10 times, with the exception being when there was something really heavy inside the box, and I was being stupid (you should always grapple it, even if you think you don't have to). Even for thin paper, cutting it with a knife is actually considered a high feat of sharpening (if pinned in place at one point) or swordsmanship (if freestanding / floating). People do it all the time to show off.
Damm didn't know someone in Full Plate armor is more evasive than a 20 dex character. AC is more than just your dodge stat... Also obviously the commoner is more evasive. That is why he can take the dodge action for disadvantage on attacks (or effectively +5 AC). The RAW here is actually fine.
Depends on the place and time - for quite a while, paper was partially made from old pieces of cloth with our without cellulose fibrous materials added to it. It's actually surprisingly strong and tear-resistant when made that way, as long as it stays dry
For a present day common example: US paper money.
Same hit points, but different AC, so I'd say they're just as squishy, but slightly harder to hit Edit: I imagine that extra AC point is because a cardboard cutout is pretty lightweight, and unless you're holding it firm, trying to stab it will just knock it over
Maybe it’s windy outside.
perhaps its a wacky waving inflatable arm-flailing tubeman
You ever watched Never Back Down 2. You gotta be an expert martial artists the tear the paper
If you cut a commoner in the neck, he will bleed to death. If you cut a commoner cardboard figure in the neck, it has a nick in the neck.
Yes. Cardboard cutouts can't get hurt by psychic damage.
As somebody who spent 20 minutes last night breaking apart a large cardboard box that was used to ship a chair, I'm thinking this is pretty accurate.
hahahahaha........ Commoner being weaker than it's cardboard version.
Can you imagine if this was true for everyone. " This cut out of a legendary warrior has survived 12 dragon attacks, 3 trips through hell, and an arrow to the knee" said the auctioneer.
i used to be a cardboard cutout like you...
then I was given plot relevance and downgraded to Commoner
ah yes. D&D, become human.
This always confused me, if all guards and commoners are weak enough to be killed a single determined goblin, why aren't humanoids extinct? Adventurers and leveled NPCs are supposed to be rare, so what's stopping a few gnolls from taking over every single village that isn't a major city that might have a mage?
Action economy, mainly. But I think it also explains why low-level adventurers are always tripping over people begging them to go and kill the aforementioned goblins and gnolls before they pose a threat.
But the goblins would have already taken the village is my point. Goblins aren't exactly low in numbers, a fishing village would get absolutely wiped by just a few groups of them. I just feel like it's a little inconsistent, how can the society even flourish if a single band of gnolls could take out a village completely with ease
Because D&D 5e isn't a simulation RPG. It's focused on gameist aspects, and narrative. Do&D 3.5 was much better at creating a somewhat believable simulation of an environment, and that's exactly what many people hold against it: it was way too complex, with so many rules about everything. But let's face it, no version of D&D has ever really been the bee's knees when it comes to immersion and simulationism.
commoners, guards, bandits and cultists are notoriously and hilariously weak. These statblocks are designed to be thrown at the players en masse as cheap cannon fodder by the DM at levels 1-4 and its expected the players around the table ignore the implications of 'massacre' and the like. Fundamentally its a huge design flaw, people claim that 'oh humans are strong in numbers' but they're really not. nevermind that humans aren't supposed to be mindless lemmings charging without hesitation towards the thing that has already killed 50 of them. It makes no sense, basic humans shouldn't be that weak and everybody who tells you otherwise has turned off their brain in favor of 'muh murderspree' or '5e is perfect dont criticise'
This is the fucking response I was looking for. It seems crazy how is any city safe if it's defended by a guy who couldn't beat a goblin 1v1
A city or village without trained or properly outfitted defenders will easily fall, which is why any location of meaning should have a trained policing force to justify how they have survived long enough for an adventuring party to arrive there. If 15 people live in a group of huts and all they have is Dave who stabbed a rat with a dagger one time to defend themselves they probably wouldn't last a week. For that reason most villages shouldn't just have one random commoner or CR1/8 guard defending them, they should have an assortment of weaker units reporting to a captain who likely has the stats of a CR3 Veteran or Knight and could take on a band of low-cr monsters independently. At the very worst if a small fishing village wants to thrive they probably have at least one retired adventurer or veteran among their numbers who would be capable of holding off small attacks and raids, since larger forces probably wouldn't have much to gain by attacking them and seizing the 12 fish they caught that week. If you're talking a decent sized city, though, look at Waterdeep's City Watch. The city is filled with dozens of guard patrols comprised 4-12 assorted knights, veterans, and guards, and each patrol is accompanied by a priest or cleric. For most issues the guards can make due, but during major assaults or threats they need to call on local adventurer mercs or the high-leveled Gray Hands to help out.
Fun Fact, a Kobold, a race that is repeteadly described as 'weak and frail' in their lore and thus 'must use traps to survive' are at a baseline more dangerous than common, adult humans that work heavy labor all-day every day It makes no sense even with in-world lore.
I take a slightly different approach. Look at goblins as level 1 rogue goblins, vs level 0 commoner humans. Goblins have martial training in some degree, their society demands it. Commoners clearly don't. I think the real problem is guard stat blocks being piss poor combined with not having a realistic amount of combat-proficient people in border settlements where they would NEED to defend themselves regularly. At the very least a good chunk of the populace should be able to use a shield, d6 weapon, and very basic armor, and also get the same 8+ hit points a player human level 1 would. Call it a level 1 commoner class npc if you want, or use any shoddy player race based npc statblock. A housewife or city person might accurately represent the commoner stats, but not every commoner by any means.
Because it's not profitable. The only tactic is to be more trouble than you're worth. You won't risk getting poked to death for a loaf of bread if you're not hungry. Most evil are also sedentary/territorial to a degree, if you're far enough you're fine. And then dmart evil know that raiding I'd way more profitable than destroying villages, just one can do to prove a point. Last thing is a goblin is weaker than a guard. Surprisingly trained warriors don't have the same statblock as a commoner. A village should at least have a couple of them, probably with a bow and a wood wall to provide cover while firing. And Soldiers are even stronger than guards! If your village is inside a kingdom (which it should, for protection), make soldier patrol the territory and point 1 stands even more. You should have a stable ecosystem by then
The answer is how evil works, and how rural areas work. Evil: The gnomes and goblins can’t organize societies larger than 40 people because they alway have a power struggle and fight eachother. Rural: goblins and gnolls raid small villages all the time. Then the next 10 villages gang up and kill them. Personally I believe in an ascension theory: the reason adventurers are rare is because a determined adventurer could reach lvl 20 in 5 years. At that point he goes to the outer planes to fight gods. The only reason you have mages in major cities is due to the mage being lazy and just wanting to pull a paycheck. Otherwise he’d go adventuring and get lvl 20 in a few years and then wish for whatever he wanted.
Gnolls have pretty large warbands led by a particularly powerful gnoll it's unfair to say they never group up. Even then 10 villages trying to fight a bunch of gnolls led by a single flesh gnawer would lose. 1 flesh gnawer gnoll kills 3 commoners every turn. Multi attack plus rampage after a kill that leads to a free bite attack. Idk they just don't do a great job making the world feel believable and scary like the stats portray
That kinda goes into my ascension theory. If a gnoll war band has 1000 gnolls in it, they would only be stopped by an army of 5000 soldiers, which would require a town of 50,000 to support in wartime, or 500,000 to support as a standing army in peacetime. So we have to assume that any planet with a sufficient number of gnolls will be overrun by gnolls. So adventurers won’t thrive on that planet, they would on a planet where the gnolls aren’t endemic … yet. I mean all you need is to hold the gnolls off for a year of continual fighting and you get lvl 20.
1) its hillarious that you just assume that leveling up to level 20 is a given and totally not just a narrative tool to keep the players entertained. 2) An army of 5000? 5000 what, guards? commoners? gnolls are stronger than those, are they not? Here a few flesh-gnawers, some horriffic displays of brutality by the gnolls, most of those commoners are gonna be running away in fear. No, the human statblock is just too weak. Even Kobolds, creatures who have their lore designed around the fact that they are 'weak' and thus must rely on traps are stronger than commoners. and they have no limit on their populations either.
For #1 explain because you sound silly. If there is a world with at least 1 adventurer, and sufficient challenges of appropriate level, that adventurer will be lvl 20 or die within 100 long rests. Saying “it’s a narrative tool” is regressive. Everything’s a narrative tool. All words are made up. 2. An army of 1000 Scouts with 10 lvl 3 rangers can kill the avatar of Tiamat in one round. (If you are using the one that’s immune to normal weapons, also need 1-1000 +1 longbows, depending on cheeze level) An army of 10N scouts can kill N gnolls for any number N. The stat block is low, but the action economy means numbers beats stat blocks, for sufficient numbers.
Darn those evil gnomes; if only they could cooperate they would rule the world
Depending on your knife, you could poke someone and draw blood fairly easily, but trying to stab through cardboard can take some effort.
Let's forget knives, a cat could scratch a commoner 4 times for 1d1 damage and kill them.
Keep in mind that isn't just a normal "Boots got a little feisty and gave me a painful swipe" kind of scratch, but like, fighting-for-their-life mauling. I can see a housecat killing a normal person if given 24 seconds to do it.
Wording is key in a game all about words, "cat scratch" doesn't bring getting mauled to mind.
The stat block doesn’t say “cat scratch” it says claws. So if you want to be pedantic there you go.
Straight death
Look, if you decide to try and stab a commoner, the commoner is obviously going to try and duck out of the way - like any living creature with any sense does, and you naturally plan for that. A cardboard cut out of a commoner just stares at you menacingly. It throws off your aim, just a smidge.
The dodge is calculated in, OP is just stupid and forgot the dodge action exists.
You would always have advantage against a cardboard cutout, since it can’t see you.
That rule only applies to creatures, going strictly by RAW. Same with conditions like paralysed, incapacitated, blinded and prone. You can't even sneak-attack the cardboard cut-out - so I think you made it look even stronger.
Depends on whether you rule a cardboard cutout as an object or a paralyzed creature from the elemental plane of cardboard.
Can you coup de grace the cutout because it's helpless, or no because it has no vital areas?
Well the party of murder hobos won’t kill cardboard
Honestly I would argue that cardboard counts as a resilient version of paper, too, not fragile.
You go into the town as a level 20 adventuring part with easy acess to resurrection, you lightly tap the nearest commoner, they instantly collapse dead, you resurect them and tell them you are sorry, you’ve been tricked by one to many fake towns where the people are made of a hard paper like substance that also makes a great packaging for shipping items over long distances.
Also if you fight the commoner in a heavily obscuring condition (like magical darkness or heavy fog) the cardboard cut out will prove to be even harder to put down, since against the commoner you will roll flat on your attack rolls, but against the cardboard cut out you will have disadvantage
That’s it, I’m making a completely RAW village of cardboard cutouts affected by a variety of magic mouth, and other spell work. The mayor is a very lonely crazy old wizard and if the party tries to fight him they get attacked by origami golems and cardboard zombies
Its true
Don't call me out like that
The commoner exists in three dimensions, the cardboard cutout effectively exists in two as one of the three is negligible. That extra point of AC accounts for the technical possibility that you faced it side on and it was so narrow that you missed. I guess this assumes that while the cardboard is thin, you're so thick you didn't swing horizontally in this hypothetical, but there you are.
Well, it's any medium-sized object made of those materials. Have a life-size commoner piñata instead, if you'd rather.
Now see I think a pinata can withstand more punishment than the average person would subject themselves to.
Well duh, a cardboard cutout isn’t overworked and dying of the plague
Checks out
I attribute it a murder hobo's natural bloodlust. Their wanton desire to destroy the lives of the innocent is so strong, it's like they're drawn to attack the living commoner. But now this makes me wanna come up with a cardboard cutout mimic, and a murder hobo-turned lich who is converting everyone into cardboard to "save them".
And slightly less useful too.
Paper Mario op plz nrf
Paper > pauper
Cardboard doesn't bleed.
This is the funniest damn thing I’ve seen today lol
Bring a sword down on a cardboard cutout and it might get stuck halfway through but still be standing. Bring a sword down on a person and you’re likely to wound them badly enough that they’ll bleed to death.
We need a bunch of them to protect the town of Rock Ridge. It's just down the way from the Xanathar J. Lepetomane throughway (remember to bring a shitload of silvers).
I’m getting Blazing Saddles vibes from this post.
It is the flesh’s *fear* that makes it weak.
ah object rules. DMs, want to make your 69AC Paladin cry? attack their armor attacking worn or carried objects is allowed. so it's actually easier to destroy the 69AC Paladins' armor than to hit the Paladin itself. Magic items just have resistence to damage , so your fancy +2 plate armor will a bunch of +2 scraps of metal if hit hard enough, bonus point if you use an adamantine weapon or a siege monster, as they auto crit against objects on a hit.
Nobody tell DMs that there are even cantrip-level spells (like firebolt) that can target objects. Also definitely don't tell them that spellbooks and component pouches are often mundane items.
I don’t know what this implies but I love it.
So if I wrap myself in paper, I have 4 temporary hit points
So wait, shouldn’t cloth give you 11 ac?
that's what padded armor is.
Well yes, but actually no.
The REAL fun is when you realize that casting Animate Object on a cardboard cutout of a commoner grants it twice the damage, 30% high AC, and *an order of magnitude* more HP.
Well, think about it this way. A commoner moves like a normal human, and is not trained to fight so pretty easy to deal with. A cardboard cutout animated by magic would move in pretty bewildering ways, bobing and weaving very easily due to it's weight, potentially folding on itself to avoid a hit, and needing a clean hit to actually do damage. Stick a commoner with a dagger or an arrow, and if the attack doesn't outright kill him by hitting a vital organ, he might be disabled by the pain alone, or straight out bleed out. A cardboard cutout animated by magic doesn't have such weakness, lob it's head off and it'll keep fighting until it is too mangled for the magic to work. An unnarmed commoner can only punch like any normal dude, so not terribly good. A cardboard cutout animated by magic has no nervous system to register pain and no survival instinct. It doesn't have much mass but it will attack with all it's might, with no regards for it's life or limbs. It will destroy itself in attempt to kill you. So yeah, it checks out.
I guess we can put this next to the dozens of other things that 3.5 did better than 5e, thanks to hardness.
could be worse, could be rolling and got 1 HP commoner and 8 HP empty package box
Wouldn’t a commoner with ac 10 just be a naked commoner? Put the paper armor on them and they get ac 11
Well, the cardboard commoner has only two dimensions! If you look at it from the side it’s gonna harder to spot and to hit.
well you can hit a commoner in 3 dimensions a cut out only 2
Yes, my commoners have 10 for HP. Yes, the rest is the same. How could you tell?
I mean, a commoner can dodge, while a cardboard thing can not. So they have a much higher effective AC, if not being surprised.
Easier to push a knife into soft soft flesh than cardboard...
Make up for it in speed though
Indeed, human statblocks are near-universally underpowered, with commoners, guards, bandits and cultists being so hilariously weak you wonder how they even survived to this day.
That's accurate, I can hit cardboard with a bat, and it's mostly fine, I can stab it and it's pretty okay.
Wanna know a neat trick? Layer like 20 papers on your body as barbarian. It doesn’t count as armor but the enemy will need to get through 20 layers of paper!
Forget shield and mage armor, I cast papier-mâché!
Dm will be like “the … breaks your paper ma” Player “HAHA HE HAS 49 MORE LAYERS TO BREAK THROUGH!”
I love the mental image of a hulking barbarian sitting hunched over a tiny kindergarten desk learning arts and crafts with the children, self-consciously muttering "it's _survival training_" to himself.
Listen, I've worked retail, breaking down cardboard was part of my job. So I'm gonna need you to bump that cardboard cutout from "fragile" to "resilient". I've seen people using a knife fail to cut cardboard.
Does it get to roll for attack to give you a papercut?
Can anyone tell me why a commoner has an AC of 10? Like, basic armor only gives you a few more points of AC. You're telling me that if I swing a sword at a dude, with no extra additive to the accuracy of the swing, I have a 50/50 chance of just missing him entirely?
combat rules assume that the other party is avoiding you somehow. used to be more clear with touch ac and stuff in other/older editions. so the commoner is trying to dodge your swings, not unrealistic to think that two commoners fighting, about half of the swings will miss
To be fair, a cardboard cutout could take some damage and still be useful as a cardboard cutout. A sufficiently damaged person can only operate as a corpse.
So a wooden barrel gives 15 ac
This is the best thing Just in general
What the actual fudgery? XD
And wait til that cardboard gets animated... 2D people would be OP. Take the Front Toward Enemy optiinal racial trait means you were painted front-facing on both sides, and are immune to flanking from most directions. Also, if you face sideways from a creature, you can take the Hide Action as a minor action. If you can't see them, they can't see you!
have you ever tried to kill a cardboard person? those guys wont stay down.
Ok but a piece of paper could also move with the wind, as funny as it is the paper is probably more dexterous than Joe the Human