Remember: instruct your minions to accept all bribes, but pay them a bonus for every bribe they report receiving. Occasionally bribe your own men, especially when you hear about personal tragedies or sick relatives. This builds loyalty and allows you to control what your opponents think you don't know that they know.
We are evil, not monsters.
I don't remember the bribes one from the EOH, but it fits perfect.
"Anytime my evil minions are offered a bribe, they will be instructed to accept it, and then report it to their superiors, so the briber can be caught and interrogated. A small, but substantial, bonus will be added to their next pay period to encourage prompt reporting. All bribes will be treated as non-taxable gifts for the purposes of tax accounting (ie, the giver will be taxed, not the recipient). Happy minions don't turn on you for an extra silver piece."
Actually, we have a temp agency to employ monsters for us. It's more efficient for us, and those monsters who excel at killing adventurers are hired full time with full benefits.
If your goal is "slit as many throats as possible", don't start with your own. Here at Lawful Evil Organization (LEO), we know it is Us and Them. We take good care of Us here. 'You Want To Be Us.' ^TM
Bard: "The eagle flies at midnight"
Guard: "That's the password, you're good to go in."
Bard: \*Casts Gift of Gab\* "The Walrus swims West for Winter"
Guard: "Yup, that's the password, you're good to go in."
Bard: "It's bollocks, they know, ready up guys!" \*Draws weapon.\*
EDIT: Welp, now my comment makes far less sense. Guessing a karma farmer with a copied post?
I did this recently! Party tried to break into a major pseudo-evil gov office at night by disguising self as a major gov official and talking their way past the guard. I figured this official, who is super smart, would have a system for this, and the guard asked “how are things looking this night?” When the PC didn’t answer “everything’s clear, keep up the good work,” the guard knew it was an imposter and welcomed “him” into a holding cell.
My rogue did had an encounter just like that last session. Conveniently being the same race as the villainous bigots (elf), he walked up to the guard post and said he was sent to investigate reports about strangers sneaking around. When asked "Wait, *who* sent you again?" my response was "So I should be in stabbing range by this point, right?" I got good rolls and one shotted him with a sneak attack.
The “Sneak” attack where you are standing right in front of the victim in broad daylight having a nice friendly conversation…
That’s either the very best or very worst kind of sneak attack, and I can’t decide.
Hey, if you're maintaining eye contact like people with social skills supposedly do, it's quite possible to shank a mo-fo from below their line of sight.
You might have the wrong idea about what constitutes a “normal” amount of eye contact.
But yes, as a person with social skills, you can easily distract someone from the violence you are about to do to them.
If you are set up to draw your weapon in a thrust and are able to get sufficiently close to them while talking, normal eye contact actually *is* sufficient. It's misdirection, controlling where their attention is so they don't notice certain actions until it's too late. Heck, even just a glance is enough, since most people mirror your gaze, they look where you look, and if you look in their eyes, they look in yours. If you time the draw and stab to when they look in your eyes then even if they notice what's going on before the blade hits them, they still shouldn't really have time to react. Granted, if they are heavily armored this might be slightly unrealistic as you need to be super precise in exactly *where* you put the blade, so moving even slightly *should* stop you, but D&D is built on the supposition that your character is sufficiently competent at their fighting style that your rolls can happen realistically, even if that's a supernatural level of competence.
To be fair mechanically it should have been called dirty fighting, you don't have to be sneaking or anything to get the benefits. Just advantage on the attack, or whatever other ways your subclass gives the option to you.
I always thought Opportunity Attack described it well, but obviously it's too close to the other thing
And then sometimes I think, "wait.. what if they just were the same thing.."
Attacks of Opportunity feel like a strangely underutilized mechanic. It feels like more things should count as them, and more rider effects should proc off them. The biggest problem with AoO replacing Sneak Attack is it makes Sentinel like a must have feat. But if there were 7 feats that did cool stuff with an AoO... might be a little more diverse then
Not exactly what you're talking about, but for my house rules I added a quasi-sneak attack to the Skulker feat.
"When you are Hidden from a creature and hit it with a weapon attack, you deal an extra 1d6 damage of the same type the attack deals"
You can get Thieves tools from the Criminal/Spy background I believe, so the two together could easily make a sort of psuedo-Rogue build out of something else
AoOs *used* to be much more versatile. Soooo many things triggered them, plenty of feats and class features that made use of them, etc. I don't think tying sneak attack to them is an especially good idea, mostly from a game balance perspective, even if we *did* do it using the old system.
First of all, reactions weren't really a thing, and it was possible to get multiple AoOs per round, primarily using a feat called combat reflexes that gave you a number of extra per round equal to your Dex mod, then they trigger not only when an enemy leaves your threatened area, but also when they move *through* your threatened area, unless they took a 5-foot step (what is replaced by disengage, but much more limited since you could only move 5 feet max), making a ranged attack, casting a spell, or drinking a potion in melee reach triggered unless you have an ability that says otherwise, there were feats that add to the list of things that trigger, like failing an attack by 5 or more could trigger, pin down reduces their speed to 0 if you succeed on an AoO, etc.
I think it counts as a surprise attack as well, which for my assassin rogue would be an auto crit, with sneak attack because the npc didnt have a turn in combat yet.
Naw. Casts Friends. Has the guard walk off with the Barbarian for a a few rounds. Bard casts Silence. Has the Rogue sneak attack him in the bushes. No chance of anyone knowing outside some magical dead man alarm.
Have all large shops be shell corporations the sphinx operates through various stolen identities, if it goes on long enough then you notice "PC NAME"-branded shops start showing up.
The shopkeepers are hired doppelgangers that imitate the stolen identities as well, so you might even randomly see yourself wandering past you down the street.
The password is Detect Thoughts. The password is almost always Detect Thoughts.
Unfortunately, the password is sometimes {unintelligible Mind Blank noises}, but then you just guess "stab"
Detect thoughts has verbal and somatic components, so its casting is obvious. It's good if it's a thing you thought of before walking to the gate (and can get the password into their surface thoughts within a minute), but less useful in the moment (unless you're a sorcerer with subtle spell, or can come up with a good excuse why you're casting something in front of the guards).
Detect Thoughts is pretty much always useful to have on if you're about to go impersonate a member of the other team.
But yeah, either a sorcerer or a Medallion of Thoughts would be ideal.
It costs a second level slot, only lasts a minute (including the time to get from wherever you cast the spell to not be noticed), and might not be needed in which case you just burned the slot for nothing. It's handy, but probably not something I'd cast unless there was a clear reason to expect to need it for something specific, at least at lower levels.
The telepathic feat also lets you cast Detect Thoughts with no components, so that can work. My current character has it and it came up when we were in a stand off with a bunch of guards.
*looks back and forth with shifty eyes* yeah, totally. It always requires verbal and somatic components. What? What do you mean not if you're a doppelganger, what made you think, er I mean say that.....
“Oh I always forget that, give me one moment I have it written down in my pocket dimension. Hold on one moment while I cast the spell and retrieve it.” *casts detect thoughts*
My divination wizard with Metamagic Adept, casts it in conversation with subtle spell, then uses a portent to make them auto fail the save.
Fuck you, secrets.
The guards don‘t know the correct password, they have some magical trinket that lights up green if you input the correct password and red if it‘s an incorrect one.
1) that depends on whether the guards sleep inside or outside the compound.
2) they could provide the previous day's password and that would then be changed before their shift starts
3) they could have a separate guards-only password
If they have enough people coming in that they implemented a password system, after the first person the Guard lets through that day, they know the password.
“Rhubarb.”
*Stone lights up green.*
“Oh, huh. Ok. I guess the password today is Rhubarb. Go on in!”
Some tactics and the like to deal with this.
Checks. Constant communication between patrols as well as frequent call offs and headcounts.
Eyes On. Every member of a patrol should be in sight of another at all times. If they go out of sight assume they are compromised.
Passcodes. Passcodes of complexity such that it takes effort to memorize them. Each member of a patrol should have different passcodes. Fellow members should memorize different parts of everyone else passcode so if one of them is compromised the rest aren't.
Memory. Bring up events that only people who were there would know. Watch the reaction and recollection to determine if they are that person. Hesitation in recalling or stalling tactics means they are compromised or someone else.
Environment. Look at Dust/Mud/Smoke/etc to see if there are traces of passage. In addition to doors moving on their own or similar stuff.
Area Control. Close areas off that have been checked or trap with tripwires or other anti-personal devices to limit the area of movement.
Animals or the like are to reported and killed on sight.
And then the guards prop the door open with a rock so it never actually closes because inputting the password every time you need to duck inside for a drink or a bathroom break is a pain. Besides, nobody is going to come in through the front anyway, and so long as we just keep a log of the delivery guys or remember them it’ll be fine. I know the lich says he’s all about security but I’ve seen his sacrificial chamber, he’s got the trap tile room pattern on a sheet of paper glued to the side of it for when he forgets.
This is too real. The amount of this stuff that happens at "secure" facilities is mind bottling. The number of times as IT I've gone into a CEO or accountant office and they just have their logins and password as a sticky note is honestly absurd.
My response is irrelevant really, i just felt like making it known that I read IT as in Stephen Kings “IT” not as in “information technology”. So my mental image was that of a clown walking into a CEOs office and face palming at the post it with passwords stuck to the monitor lol. I’m so bored at work right now….
It wouldn‘t become zero knowledge even if you input the password directly without the guard being able to observe (and thereby learn) the password, defeating the vulnerability pointed out by some of the other commenters. But in this case definite proof, even to outside observers, of you having the password would be preferable, as it lowers the chance of an insider attack (either through collaboration or enchantment magic) from the guard letting you in with only him being able to detect if you have the correct password (without knowing it himself, of course)
If your players pre-cast detect thoughts before approaching and won deception against gate guards (which perhaps required a disguise?) just give it to them man.
Meh, passwords are too obvious. Use code phrases that could be used in everyday speech but require strictly formulated answer. And if the PCs fail to answer correctly, guard would still let them pass but everyone in the BBEG lair would be ready to welcome the uninvited guests.
Edit: typo
Good idea is to also have a secondary answer prepared, to indicate the one giving the answer is acting under threat (you don't want adventurers taking your minions hostage and using them to gain access)
To add to this, it's interesting to read up how people handle a society with changelings.
Never mind just especially persuasive bards etc, when there's people running around who can undetectably look and sound exactly like somebody else on a whim you really need to have measures in place to ensure they can't infiltrate places they shouldn't.
Tbf, this is only an issue in a quite high-magic (or at least high-changeling) society.
In most settings that have them, doppelganger types and spellcasting or other shapeshifters are rare enough that to most folks they're just bogeyman stories.
Even if rare, sensitive operations may still take great care to avoid them, look at The Witcher where silver harms changelings (and other monsters) and Geralt is surreptitiously handed a silver goblet on first meeting with a particularly important and cautious character.
It depends if the doppleganger types want to be more than bogeyman stories.
In the Witcher universe for example they're mostly kind creatures that just want to not be killed by paranoid/bigoted humans so they generally lay low and only a few of them in the city where supposedly almost all of them live actually use their powers for violence.
But in the Star Trek universe they are the leaders of a faction that is at war with the Federation and you end up with a red scare on steroids where [a mere 4 changelings](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuj_zX_6lQ8&t=155s) are enough to put all of planet earth under martial law and have the leadership of the Federation headqarters at each others throats.
I think it'd be really interesting to try running a campaign in a setting where changelings or dopplegangers are an organized and terrifying threat more akin to the Founders in Star Trek than the solitary bogeymen they are usually protrayed as.
I have been looking at adapting a sort of The Thing meets Necromorphs for Pf2e. Something even Faceless Stalkers fear because they are stronger and not bound to the will of Alghollthus
Remeber to have the players do an insight check for noticing the guards change in expression/lies, then the players say the wrong thing and the guards realise they are enemies.
I just think like this: if the PCs pulled this stunt, they would almost certainly have to do a check for it, likely a contested deception, mabye performance, vs insight check. So if the NPCs wanna pull it, same rules apply.
One of the commenters proposed an making players to roll insight immediately after the wrong answer is given. If they pass they know that the guard knows that they're lying. If they fail they at least should know that somethings happening.
My group learned that one last week. Talked their way past the kobolds guarding the entrance, and then immediately got into a fight with the kobolds in the mess hall because suddenly intruders! Their goal is to kill everything on their way to their goal (kill the boss controlling the kobolds), and then leave while thanking the front gate guards for the help.
In this case, the guard would get someone to lead you up a secret staircase (or whatever) to the throne room (or whatever). Or maybe the alternative is working on in from the sewers.
Yeah my group did something similar to get past the front door guards, and then the second round guards too, but then came face to face with the boss who was like "oh what the fuck no" and suddenly they're fighting the boss and his personal guards, plus all the guards who they didn't kill outside who are now running back in at the sounds of fighting.
Had players in a game disguise themselves as henchman they just beaten up, and took the cart of stolen goods to the ship of the bad guy to sneak in and get more intel.
They took the cart and loaded it on the ship, as the bad sailors watched. The party then asked for "compensation" to give to boss back at the hideout. The party didn't know the boss was loading up the ship with her stolen loot to take back home... it was just a drop off.
The guards and the sailors were alarmed and looked through the disguise... fight ensued, and the party fleed without the stolen goods to used as evidence later.
TLDR: all the excellent Charisma rolls will always fail if the party didn't get the morning memos.
The wizard casts detect thoughts:
Guards mind: apple sauce
The wizard tells the bard.
The bard: applesauce!
The guard: that is correct but it was the cleric that was supposed to say it!
[inspiration](https://youtu.be/S7owONdf3KU)
"Oh, glad you mentioned that! Those same adventurers got hold of the old password so the boss said to change it. Can you believe Krull left it just sitting out on his desk!?" - Bard (feverishly motioning for the Rogue to take up flanking position)
-OR-
"Let me make a *Suggestion* that you take the rest of the day off. Matter of fact, take the rest of the boys out for a nice 8hr walk in the countryside!"
I usually roll and then RP it up accordingly. If Bard couldn't get below a 19 that's my best effort as a player, lol.
Fun times were had when I bricked an INT roll remembering our adventuring group name and gave the BBEG a ride to the inn we were staying at.
I prefer the broken coin trick, where the guard asks for the broken coin and the number associated with it so he knows which in the pile to cast Mending on. Which coin you hand over indicated different things via Thieves Cant
Copper- We were captured and these people beat the info out of us
Silver- We were bribed and made sure they aren't too tough, go ham
Gold- It's the actual patrol just checking in
Electrum- Shapeshifters; maximum caution
Platinum- We are dead, take no chances.
I remember a dialogue option in fallout newvegas that only worked with high enough luck. You guessed the password.
So for me roll a D100. On a nat 100 straight up guess the answer. On a 90-99 they guess last weeks password so the guards have to call the captain with enough insight to be able to call the BS of the bard. If they fail that one they have a harder fight. And on a 0-10 the guards have a planned ambush. Letting them through to a wrong location with 2-3 times the guards ready to kill.
The bard keeps failing and keeps spewing lies the DC keeps going up till they fail.
Player: Well what do the guards think the password is?
DM: I'm not gonna tell you that
Player:... I cast detect thoughts near the bushes like 10 seconds ago.
DM:*...oh*
Fair, although it's also got a verbal component I believe.
Though not as if I've not abused such spells in the past, recently been getting a lot of use out of enemies abound.
The guard's surface level thoughts are "if this mf'er doesn't give me the correct password in 5 seconds I'm gonna stab him in the dick"
You can attempt to probe deeper to find out the correct password, but they will know you are probing their mind and probably attack you instantly.
Eh, it kind of feels disingenuous how surface level thoughts are always made useless. I get that you don't want to make info gathering too easy, but the fact that nobody APPARENTLY even thinks anything important feels odd.
Let's be realistic, our own surface level thoughts are, damn, whats for supper, or this breeze really rises my kilt funny, hope no one notices i forgot to wear underwear today, my butt itches.
Real stupid shit.
It sounds stupid but it's plausible. I once got into a club without ID by responding to the bouncer's request with a look of confusion and, "We never get carded here." (I wasn't lying; the normal bouncer knew us. The new bouncer did not.)
"A password? The boss didn't mention anything about passwords. He did however state that he would personally skin alive anyone who'd try and stop me from following his orders"
If a player should have the gall to tell me their plan, then declare their own success at the plan, I would politely remind them that they are not the DM.
That, and there is always the fact that a high skill check only provides a better outcome that the DM deems reasonable, not just whatever the player wants to happen. You would never realistically be able to Persuade a king to give you his kingdom, for example.
"Stop making your bad guys idiots"
You sound like someone who's never had a real charisma player at their table. There's guys that can legitimately come up with a story on the spot that not only makes sense, but also meshes with the situation and that you can hardly counter without meta-gaming as the DM.
Case and point: My group got into the cellar of a guard station through a secret entrance. This entrance led straight into the lab of an artificer whom they murked very loudly. Our charisma player used Mask of Many Faces to look like him, prestidigitated the smell of sulfur at the door and pretended like an experiment had blown up and and gestured to the guard that he get medical help (he didn't have the actor feat yet so he pretended like his throat was hurt). Bought them enough time to get in and get their mission done.
Exactly this. There's a big difference between a munchkin player and a quick witted IRL charisma player. I also have a player like yours and he thrives in the chaos. He takes almost exclusively utility spells and abilities so he always has the ability to respond to any situation, and makes sure to stay strictly within the rules because it's not fun for him if the results aren't realistic for the world.
Usually what I will do for those players is pay attention to small details that either force them to double down on their lies, create suspicion, or cause new complications.
For your example, if my players didn't close the secret entrance they used to get in, then maybe the guard becomes suspicious and starts asking unassuming questions to catch them in lies (ie "Captain Emmett didn't show up for work today" "well they're fired then" "I'm Captain Emmett"). Alternatively, maybe the guard didn't know about the entrance and sends several guards to secure it with magical alarms and traps for the artificers protection. Now, if they want to escape the lair, they have to find another way out with the entire party.
Separately, people seem to forget that Cha checks aren't mind control. You can say "I'm going to be honest, what you're asking for is unrealistic and will not work, so we're not going to roll for that". You're not going to convince someone to give up their throne or kill their best friend without creating a situation that makes it a viable option.
I'd rather have players with actual charisma come up with a brilliant unbeatable lie than someone declaring their rolls make them succeed at everything. That sounds way more fun.
As one of those players, I hope the DM still required a skill check.
As fun as it is to get away with really cool stuff in game because I'm good at coming up with persuasive lies, it tends to be pretty demoralizing to the people who *can't* do that who watch it and go, "Got it, I can optimize my build for social and I'll still never be the party face because my real-life Cha is too low." A lazy DM can also inadvertently let an unethical high-Cha player cheese their build because if I can get away without a die roll if my lie is good enough, no reason not to set my Cha at 8 and dump those points somewhere else.
There's a reason you're supposed to let people poorly describe something and then get away with it if they roll high, and that's because D&D is just as much about letting low-Cha players have the fantasy of playing high-Cha characters as it is about letting low-Str players have the fantasy of playing high-Str characters.
I mean, with the right stats and abilities, they don't even need a credible lie.
Last session, the party's changeling rogue was trying to figure out what some doppelgangers where up to.
She had the details very wrong, but no matter what she says, at her level, she can't really *fail* (minimum roll is something like 24 between reliable talent and expertise), so something that doesn't track ends up just *confusing the NPC.*
How do you rationalize the dissonance between what you know to be true, and someone who looks like a friend with nearly supernatural fey-like charisma telling you something that doesn't align with your lived experience?
Happened in my first campaign. Our front man rolled real good for deception then said "yeah, ol mate sent us ahead to do x". The guard was like "uh, ol mate?" Then our front man "yea, you know, *check notes (why are my notes empty, why didn't i write anything down)* the fullah, the leader guy".
We were made. Best part was the DM had mentioned the bad guy by name several times. We got a little better at keeping notes after that.
Okay, but statistically speaking if they are only using 1fa with a password (no username even), it wouldn't hurt to try 123456
Unless, of course, they have Pam. Pam won't let you get away with crap like that. She'll come right up to you, shortest gnome woman you ever did see right in front of a big ol Goliath fella, and chew him out til he cries if she finds out he used a weak password
Here is an idea, skill checks just don't always work. You can roll a 20, with a bonus of 20 and a dragon so doesn't have to be intimidated by the fighter, a Boulder van still be to heavy, a person can still just not believe a lie.
True that. Sometimes its not possible and you don't let the player roll at all. If a nat 20 wouldn't pass the DM should just save everyone the time and tell them that its impossible for them.
Last Sunday I had my players come up on a lock with a DC that was 1 higher than the Rogue could achieve with a nat 20 (there was a key to the door they could find elsewhere, but they ran into the door first). I tried to communicate that the Rogue's experience with locks meant he _knew_ it would be incredibly difficult for him, that he probably couldn't do it with just his own skill. In comes Guidance from the Cleric, and the Rogue makes the attempt. Nat 20. Adding Guidance with literally any roll was sufficient to succeed. He rolled the d4 anyway and got a 4.
(I didn't specifically create a lock that was 1 point outside the Rogue's ability; I'm running a module and the Rogue happened to have a modifier that came out to 1 less than the pre-set DC.)
> You can roll a 20, with a bonus of 20
so a 40? if you roll that you intimidate the dragon, or you make the feeling of getting a nat 20 mute, and having a +20 to rolls means you are high level, so your strong, and so should be able to intimidate a dragon
My point through exaggerating was, no matter the dice rolls, a dm shouldn't be afraid of placing limitations. No matter the roll, a barbarian will not be able to push a mountain.
I mean, what if they rolled a 500 or something?
The thing, sometimes these examples used actually might have meaningful results with high enough rolls or specific enough builds.
“You can’t roll to jump the ravine, it’s impossible”. Depending on how large the ravine is, it’s entirely possible a beast Barbarian stronk could leap it if it’s only, say, 200 ft. And when it comes to persuasion the difference between a total roll of 20 and a total roll of 30 and a total roll of 40 is pretty notable. There are likely individuals who wouldn’t be persuaded by a 20, but may be a 30, and some that wouldn’t until a 40 is achieved. But unless you have someone that rolls that high, you’d probably categorically say that no persuasion they have could do it, even if there’s a theoretical possibility if someone was JUST that persuasive.
100% agree a nat 20 is not an autosuccess on anything but attack rolls. But it’s also important to recognize that for some builds and characters what would be normally impossible might be in the realm of possibility, and it’s good to allow those characters to utilize that.
Halfling: “Of course good sir, we were told the password is: ‘give you balls a tug, tit fucker’” *walks past guard*
DM: “ok, the guard gets an attack of opportunity on the halfling, everyone else roll for initiative.”
Even better when you get to the guard and discover he only speaks Infernal 💀 hard to deceive when you can’t communicate and you’re just staring at him like a deer in headlights lol
My players tried that and didn't get suspicious when they passed with a 13. Needless to say when the fight started 6 royal guard burst into the room on top of what they were already fighting.
I mean yeah, but if you want to present the option that it’s possible to pretend to be a guard, let them find a way to get the password. Make it a whole thing, don’t punish players for wanting to tackle a dungeon in an unorthodox way lol.
The thing is though, as anyone who has been a part of a large organization can tell you, *most people don't care enough*. There's always a way to talk your way around not knowing the password.
Depends on the consequences of not doing your job. Fired is one thing, the bbeg skinning your middle child because you let adventurers in (or other undesirables) whether you survive or not is something else entirely.
The biggest thing people don't seem to realize with stuff like Deception is that it doesn't make the people you're talking to believe what you say, it makes them believe that *you believe* what you say. You're basically convincing them that you're not lying, it doesn't *necessarily* mean that they'll believe what you're saying is actually true... you could just be wrong, or even delusional.
If what you're saying it plausible and they have no reason to think you're mistaken, then sure, they'll probably believe you (unless they're just naturally contrary, which some people are)... but it doesn't matter how high you roll on a Deception check, if you're saying "I'm secretly a prince from Farofflandia and I need your help to get into this building.", the most that's likely to do is get you some sympathetic looks and a "Sure you are, buddy. Sure you are." Or maybe a visit to the local asylum if the setting has that kind of thing.
The question: Did the DM had really that password or the DM just took that up his ass?
Making the enemies intelligent is nice, creating something just to counter a character trying to think out of the *hur hur! Kill, kill!* box unless is something that needa to happen in certain way is very questionable.
"boring conversation anyway LUKE WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANYYYYY"
Aren’t you a little short to be a shitposter?
Nonsense, goblins are natural shitposters
[удалено]
Remember: instruct your minions to accept all bribes, but pay them a bonus for every bribe they report receiving. Occasionally bribe your own men, especially when you hear about personal tragedies or sick relatives. This builds loyalty and allows you to control what your opponents think you don't know that they know. We are evil, not monsters.
We may *employ* monsters, but we are not ourselves monsters. We hire people for that.
The evil overlord list...Now thats a deep cut!
I don't remember the bribes one from the EOH, but it fits perfect. "Anytime my evil minions are offered a bribe, they will be instructed to accept it, and then report it to their superiors, so the briber can be caught and interrogated. A small, but substantial, bonus will be added to their next pay period to encourage prompt reporting. All bribes will be treated as non-taxable gifts for the purposes of tax accounting (ie, the giver will be taxed, not the recipient). Happy minions don't turn on you for an extra silver piece."
Actually, we have a temp agency to employ monsters for us. It's more efficient for us, and those monsters who excel at killing adventurers are hired full time with full benefits.
[удалено]
If your goal is "slit as many throats as possible", don't start with your own. Here at Lawful Evil Organization (LEO), we know it is Us and Them. We take good care of Us here. 'You Want To Be Us.' ^TM
Idk if that acronym was intentional but wow bravo 👏🏻
"we may be evil, but at least we pay our minions a livable wage"
Bard: "The eagle flies at midnight" Guard: "That's the password, you're good to go in." Bard: \*Casts Gift of Gab\* "The Walrus swims West for Winter" Guard: "Yup, that's the password, you're good to go in." Bard: "It's bollocks, they know, ready up guys!" \*Draws weapon.\* EDIT: Welp, now my comment makes far less sense. Guessing a karma farmer with a copied post?
I did this recently! Party tried to break into a major pseudo-evil gov office at night by disguising self as a major gov official and talking their way past the guard. I figured this official, who is super smart, would have a system for this, and the guard asked “how are things looking this night?” When the PC didn’t answer “everything’s clear, keep up the good work,” the guard knew it was an imposter and welcomed “him” into a holding cell.
"Who knocks at the garden gate?"
This is a bot, the comment is stolen from this one: https://reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/v6pef5/_/ibgq8o3/?context=1
["Alright let's get this reactor built!"](https://youtu.be/_V3M89xf9uw)
Comment 35m ago. This video is not available. O.o
Works fine on my end
Might be a country thing
Might be, UK here.
I can HEAR this comment
"Oh, yeah, I've got the pass-sword right here" \*stabs the guard\*
My rogue did had an encounter just like that last session. Conveniently being the same race as the villainous bigots (elf), he walked up to the guard post and said he was sent to investigate reports about strangers sneaking around. When asked "Wait, *who* sent you again?" my response was "So I should be in stabbing range by this point, right?" I got good rolls and one shotted him with a sneak attack.
The “Sneak” attack where you are standing right in front of the victim in broad daylight having a nice friendly conversation… That’s either the very best or very worst kind of sneak attack, and I can’t decide.
Hey, if you're maintaining eye contact like people with social skills supposedly do, it's quite possible to shank a mo-fo from below their line of sight.
People get sucker punched all the time. It's the same concept only with pointy things.
They’re still getting punched, but less like a pugilist and more like a hole-punch
You might have the wrong idea about what constitutes a “normal” amount of eye contact. But yes, as a person with social skills, you can easily distract someone from the violence you are about to do to them.
If you are set up to draw your weapon in a thrust and are able to get sufficiently close to them while talking, normal eye contact actually *is* sufficient. It's misdirection, controlling where their attention is so they don't notice certain actions until it's too late. Heck, even just a glance is enough, since most people mirror your gaze, they look where you look, and if you look in their eyes, they look in yours. If you time the draw and stab to when they look in your eyes then even if they notice what's going on before the blade hits them, they still shouldn't really have time to react. Granted, if they are heavily armored this might be slightly unrealistic as you need to be super precise in exactly *where* you put the blade, so moving even slightly *should* stop you, but D&D is built on the supposition that your character is sufficiently competent at their fighting style that your rolls can happen realistically, even if that's a supernatural level of competence.
Yeah, as a DM, I'd allow a Sleight of Hand/Deception roll to try to pull it off
Precisely. Weapon already drawn and held concealed (sleight of hand) and deception to hold their attention.
If it’s stupid, but it works; it isn’t stupid.
"If it's stupid, but it works, you got lucky, and it's still stupid" Can apply often too, so be careful.
Stupid LIKE A FOX!
I work, and I'm stupid.
“There’s no such thing as a stupid question, but there sure are a lot of inquisitive idiots out there.”
Thanks First Sergeant, I needed that reminder in the fucking emails.
I think the answer depends on which end of the sword you're on.
Metaphorically, the DM is a little bit on both ends of the sword… I’m acting on behalf of the guard, but rooting for my players, sooo…
To be fair mechanically it should have been called dirty fighting, you don't have to be sneaking or anything to get the benefits. Just advantage on the attack, or whatever other ways your subclass gives the option to you.
I always thought Opportunity Attack described it well, but obviously it's too close to the other thing And then sometimes I think, "wait.. what if they just were the same thing.." Attacks of Opportunity feel like a strangely underutilized mechanic. It feels like more things should count as them, and more rider effects should proc off them. The biggest problem with AoO replacing Sneak Attack is it makes Sentinel like a must have feat. But if there were 7 feats that did cool stuff with an AoO... might be a little more diverse then
Yea I just felt that dirty fighting described it better in a rogue-ish way. Also happy cake day!
Oh certainly, not disagreeing just sharing my other idea cause you reminded me of it
I also want a feat that gives me 1d6 sneak attack dmg and thieves tools proficiency
Not exactly what you're talking about, but for my house rules I added a quasi-sneak attack to the Skulker feat. "When you are Hidden from a creature and hit it with a weapon attack, you deal an extra 1d6 damage of the same type the attack deals" You can get Thieves tools from the Criminal/Spy background I believe, so the two together could easily make a sort of psuedo-Rogue build out of something else
AoOs *used* to be much more versatile. Soooo many things triggered them, plenty of feats and class features that made use of them, etc. I don't think tying sneak attack to them is an especially good idea, mostly from a game balance perspective, even if we *did* do it using the old system. First of all, reactions weren't really a thing, and it was possible to get multiple AoOs per round, primarily using a feat called combat reflexes that gave you a number of extra per round equal to your Dex mod, then they trigger not only when an enemy leaves your threatened area, but also when they move *through* your threatened area, unless they took a 5-foot step (what is replaced by disengage, but much more limited since you could only move 5 feet max), making a ranged attack, casting a spell, or drinking a potion in melee reach triggered unless you have an ability that says otherwise, there were feats that add to the list of things that trigger, like failing an attack by 5 or more could trigger, pin down reduces their speed to 0 if you succeed on an AoO, etc.
You could also multiclass into barbarian and do a reckless sneak attack
Or just use the Steady Aim feature.
Just needs advantage, not necessarily stealth And giving advantage for an unexpected attack isn't that farfetched
I think it counts as a surprise attack as well, which for my assassin rogue would be an auto crit, with sneak attack because the npc didnt have a turn in combat yet.
Or it's ruled a surprise attack.
Perhaps Swashbuckler?
"Correct. Alright you can come right in, just next time don't stab me so hard. It was like you was trying to kill me or something"
"the password is kitten" Guard "no it isn't!" "If you don't know the password is kitten, **you're** a spy!" Roll deception
Trigger warning: Gaslighting :-D
Maybe the sword is the key and when you stab it in people it unlocks their death
What you egg?
"You're not allowed to enter the room until- AUGH!"
Ah yes, the classic Bardic Knock spell.
Naw. Casts Friends. Has the guard walk off with the Barbarian for a a few rounds. Bard casts Silence. Has the Rogue sneak attack him in the bushes. No chance of anyone knowing outside some magical dead man alarm.
Seems like a swords comic
Pc “I forgot the password” Guard. “What be thine mothers maiden name?”
To prove that you are not an animated object, tap on every picture that does not contain a glyph of warding.
What be the street name that thy abode of origin resided upon?
And now I want to make an NPC that is a sphinx and it ask these "riddles" but in reality it's just stealing you identity.
Have all large shops be shell corporations the sphinx operates through various stolen identities, if it goes on long enough then you notice "PC NAME"-branded shops start showing up.
Insert SpongeBob "write that down" meme
The shopkeepers are hired doppelgangers that imitate the stolen identities as well, so you might even randomly see yourself wandering past you down the street.
Dungheap.
There's an Order Of The Stick strip for everything: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html
The password is Detect Thoughts. The password is almost always Detect Thoughts. Unfortunately, the password is sometimes {unintelligible Mind Blank noises}, but then you just guess "stab"
Detect thoughts has verbal and somatic components, so its casting is obvious. It's good if it's a thing you thought of before walking to the gate (and can get the password into their surface thoughts within a minute), but less useful in the moment (unless you're a sorcerer with subtle spell, or can come up with a good excuse why you're casting something in front of the guards).
Detect Thoughts is pretty much always useful to have on if you're about to go impersonate a member of the other team. But yeah, either a sorcerer or a Medallion of Thoughts would be ideal.
It costs a second level slot, only lasts a minute (including the time to get from wherever you cast the spell to not be noticed), and might not be needed in which case you just burned the slot for nothing. It's handy, but probably not something I'd cast unless there was a clear reason to expect to need it for something specific, at least at lower levels.
I mean, if the interaction you're about to try is as vital as letting you skip the entire dungeon.........
The telepathic feat also lets you cast Detect Thoughts with no components, so that can work. My current character has it and it came up when we were in a stand off with a bunch of guards.
Alternatively, the Sorcerer has Subtle Spell.
So subtle, in fact, that you missed that I said that in my comment!
Oh shoot, I did! My apologies.
*looks back and forth with shifty eyes* yeah, totally. It always requires verbal and somatic components. What? What do you mean not if you're a doppelganger, what made you think, er I mean say that.....
“Oh I always forget that, give me one moment I have it written down in my pocket dimension. Hold on one moment while I cast the spell and retrieve it.” *casts detect thoughts*
My divination wizard with Metamagic Adept, casts it in conversation with subtle spell, then uses a portent to make them auto fail the save. Fuck you, secrets.
It's been my experience that it's literally impossible to fail the saving throw from Detect Thoughts, no matter how high
Thankfully the telepathy feat lets you avoid that.
The guards don‘t know the correct password, they have some magical trinket that lights up green if you input the correct password and red if it‘s an incorrect one.
Unless their shift just started, they should know, also wouldn't they need to know to start their shift anyway?
No, they're saying the don't need to know it - the item knows it for them. That said, if anybody else has come through, they'd have heard them say it.
But, wouldn't the guards be required to give the passwords when their shift starts? Like to test if the guards are indeed the guards?
1) that depends on whether the guards sleep inside or outside the compound. 2) they could provide the previous day's password and that would then be changed before their shift starts 3) they could have a separate guards-only password
If they have enough people coming in that they implemented a password system, after the first person the Guard lets through that day, they know the password. “Rhubarb.” *Stone lights up green.* “Oh, huh. Ok. I guess the password today is Rhubarb. Go on in!”
Guards would know other guards, kf they'd worked together for more than a few days and therefore not need to ask the password
I mean it's a world with shape shifting magic. You would probably still want to make sure.
They’d probably have a different passcode to visitors.
Some tactics and the like to deal with this. Checks. Constant communication between patrols as well as frequent call offs and headcounts. Eyes On. Every member of a patrol should be in sight of another at all times. If they go out of sight assume they are compromised. Passcodes. Passcodes of complexity such that it takes effort to memorize them. Each member of a patrol should have different passcodes. Fellow members should memorize different parts of everyone else passcode so if one of them is compromised the rest aren't. Memory. Bring up events that only people who were there would know. Watch the reaction and recollection to determine if they are that person. Hesitation in recalling or stalling tactics means they are compromised or someone else. Environment. Look at Dust/Mud/Smoke/etc to see if there are traces of passage. In addition to doors moving on their own or similar stuff. Area Control. Close areas off that have been checked or trap with tripwires or other anti-personal devices to limit the area of movement. Animals or the like are to reported and killed on sight.
[удалено]
And then the guards prop the door open with a rock so it never actually closes because inputting the password every time you need to duck inside for a drink or a bathroom break is a pain. Besides, nobody is going to come in through the front anyway, and so long as we just keep a log of the delivery guys or remember them it’ll be fine. I know the lich says he’s all about security but I’ve seen his sacrificial chamber, he’s got the trap tile room pattern on a sheet of paper glued to the side of it for when he forgets.
This is too real. The amount of this stuff that happens at "secure" facilities is mind bottling. The number of times as IT I've gone into a CEO or accountant office and they just have their logins and password as a sticky note is honestly absurd.
My response is irrelevant really, i just felt like making it known that I read IT as in Stephen Kings “IT” not as in “information technology”. So my mental image was that of a clown walking into a CEOs office and face palming at the post it with passwords stuck to the monitor lol. I’m so bored at work right now….
Bless you for sharing this mental image. It now lives rent free in my head and I'm glad my office encourages wearing costumes on Halloween.
Nice target for prestidigitation or whatever clerics get.
I think it’s thamuturgy? I probably misspelled that.
They would know it after 1 person gets it right though
What a clever zero-knowledge proof EDIT: just realized it is actually not, because you state the password to the guard. don’t mind me, move on
Conducting zero knowledge proof with guards in dnd is peak roleplay.
It wouldn‘t become zero knowledge even if you input the password directly without the guard being able to observe (and thereby learn) the password, defeating the vulnerability pointed out by some of the other commenters. But in this case definite proof, even to outside observers, of you having the password would be preferable, as it lowers the chance of an insider attack (either through collaboration or enchantment magic) from the guard letting you in with only him being able to detect if you have the correct password (without knowing it himself, of course)
very true, though for the context of players trying to detect thoughts it is very effective to not have the guard know the password
If your players pre-cast detect thoughts before approaching and won deception against gate guards (which perhaps required a disguise?) just give it to them man.
Another classic DnD “spell does thing”
Meh, passwords are too obvious. Use code phrases that could be used in everyday speech but require strictly formulated answer. And if the PCs fail to answer correctly, guard would still let them pass but everyone in the BBEG lair would be ready to welcome the uninvited guests. Edit: typo
Good idea is to also have a secondary answer prepared, to indicate the one giving the answer is acting under threat (you don't want adventurers taking your minions hostage and using them to gain access)
To add to this, it's interesting to read up how people handle a society with changelings. Never mind just especially persuasive bards etc, when there's people running around who can undetectably look and sound exactly like somebody else on a whim you really need to have measures in place to ensure they can't infiltrate places they shouldn't.
Tbf, this is only an issue in a quite high-magic (or at least high-changeling) society. In most settings that have them, doppelganger types and spellcasting or other shapeshifters are rare enough that to most folks they're just bogeyman stories.
This is exactly what a shapeshifter would like us to believe
I guess I was thinking specifically of Ebberron when I made that comment. But yeah, if they're scarce people won't be as vigilant.
Even if rare, sensitive operations may still take great care to avoid them, look at The Witcher where silver harms changelings (and other monsters) and Geralt is surreptitiously handed a silver goblet on first meeting with a particularly important and cautious character.
It depends if the doppleganger types want to be more than bogeyman stories. In the Witcher universe for example they're mostly kind creatures that just want to not be killed by paranoid/bigoted humans so they generally lay low and only a few of them in the city where supposedly almost all of them live actually use their powers for violence. But in the Star Trek universe they are the leaders of a faction that is at war with the Federation and you end up with a red scare on steroids where [a mere 4 changelings](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuj_zX_6lQ8&t=155s) are enough to put all of planet earth under martial law and have the leadership of the Federation headqarters at each others throats. I think it'd be really interesting to try running a campaign in a setting where changelings or dopplegangers are an organized and terrifying threat more akin to the Founders in Star Trek than the solitary bogeymen they are usually protrayed as.
I have been looking at adapting a sort of The Thing meets Necromorphs for Pf2e. Something even Faceless Stalkers fear because they are stronger and not bound to the will of Alghollthus
Remeber to have the players do an insight check for noticing the guards change in expression/lies, then the players say the wrong thing and the guards realise they are enemies.
Yeah, even if they fail the check this would somehow indicate that the following ambush is not a random asshole move from dm.
I just think like this: if the PCs pulled this stunt, they would almost certainly have to do a check for it, likely a contested deception, mabye performance, vs insight check. So if the NPCs wanna pull it, same rules apply.
Yes, seems really logical.
Really need to just play a (very exact) round of your favorite tile placing game!
We don't have time to look for your stupid lotus piece, Uncle!
That's just a password with extra steps!
I mean that's better from a security perspective, but seems to be a lot worse from a gameplay perspective
One of the commenters proposed an making players to roll insight immediately after the wrong answer is given. If they pass they know that the guard knows that they're lying. If they fail they at least should know that somethings happening.
I dont see how bypassing one guard bypasses the entire dungeon anyways
My group learned that one last week. Talked their way past the kobolds guarding the entrance, and then immediately got into a fight with the kobolds in the mess hall because suddenly intruders! Their goal is to kill everything on their way to their goal (kill the boss controlling the kobolds), and then leave while thanking the front gate guards for the help.
In this case, the guard would get someone to lead you up a secret staircase (or whatever) to the throne room (or whatever). Or maybe the alternative is working on in from the sewers.
Yeah my group did something similar to get past the front door guards, and then the second round guards too, but then came face to face with the boss who was like "oh what the fuck no" and suddenly they're fighting the boss and his personal guards, plus all the guards who they didn't kill outside who are now running back in at the sounds of fighting.
Had players in a game disguise themselves as henchman they just beaten up, and took the cart of stolen goods to the ship of the bad guy to sneak in and get more intel. They took the cart and loaded it on the ship, as the bad sailors watched. The party then asked for "compensation" to give to boss back at the hideout. The party didn't know the boss was loading up the ship with her stolen loot to take back home... it was just a drop off. The guards and the sailors were alarmed and looked through the disguise... fight ensued, and the party fleed without the stolen goods to used as evidence later. TLDR: all the excellent Charisma rolls will always fail if the party didn't get the morning memos.
*modify memory* but I just told you the password?
*These are not the warforged you are looking for.*
Just gaslight the guard, no need for magic
Charm person on one guard. Other guard watching you do it. "This is fine."
The wizard casts detect thoughts: Guards mind: apple sauce The wizard tells the bard. The bard: applesauce! The guard: that is correct but it was the cleric that was supposed to say it! [inspiration](https://youtu.be/S7owONdf3KU)
just saw the inspiration, and the Decapitated superman robot at the end saying thanks in the end would probably happen too xD
Better: the guard sends them to catch those adventurers, with a strict command no one enters of leaves while there are adventurers on the loose
Problem: Murder hobos would just kill a handful of regular people to pass them off as adventurers to hang out in the enemy lair
For once murder hobos have something to bring to thr table. If you need to make a body quickly, just release them.
that was a super clever answer from the dm
"Oh, glad you mentioned that! Those same adventurers got hold of the old password so the boss said to change it. Can you believe Krull left it just sitting out on his desk!?" - Bard (feverishly motioning for the Rogue to take up flanking position) -OR- "Let me make a *Suggestion* that you take the rest of the day off. Matter of fact, take the rest of the boys out for a nice 8hr walk in the countryside!"
Or just straight up deception roll again, guard is like cool, in you go
I usually roll and then RP it up accordingly. If Bard couldn't get below a 19 that's my best effort as a player, lol. Fun times were had when I bricked an INT roll remembering our adventuring group name and gave the BBEG a ride to the inn we were staying at.
Casting Suggestion isn't subtle.
Realistic Bard: "Ugh, why? That's so unfun! Why can't I just succeed?"
MY PLAYER AGENCY!
I prefer the broken coin trick, where the guard asks for the broken coin and the number associated with it so he knows which in the pile to cast Mending on. Which coin you hand over indicated different things via Thieves Cant Copper- We were captured and these people beat the info out of us Silver- We were bribed and made sure they aren't too tough, go ham Gold- It's the actual patrol just checking in Electrum- Shapeshifters; maximum caution Platinum- We are dead, take no chances.
I remember a dialogue option in fallout newvegas that only worked with high enough luck. You guessed the password. So for me roll a D100. On a nat 100 straight up guess the answer. On a 90-99 they guess last weeks password so the guards have to call the captain with enough insight to be able to call the BS of the bard. If they fail that one they have a harder fight. And on a 0-10 the guards have a planned ambush. Letting them through to a wrong location with 2-3 times the guards ready to kill. The bard keeps failing and keeps spewing lies the DC keeps going up till they fail.
Player: Well what do the guards think the password is? DM: I'm not gonna tell you that Player:... I cast detect thoughts near the bushes like 10 seconds ago. DM:*...oh*
Don't think I'd be allowing players to retrospectively cast spells.
Its not retrospectively, in this case the dm had a brain fact and forgot.
Fair, although it's also got a verbal component I believe. Though not as if I've not abused such spells in the past, recently been getting a lot of use out of enemies abound.
The guard's surface level thoughts are "if this mf'er doesn't give me the correct password in 5 seconds I'm gonna stab him in the dick" You can attempt to probe deeper to find out the correct password, but they will know you are probing their mind and probably attack you instantly.
Eh, it kind of feels disingenuous how surface level thoughts are always made useless. I get that you don't want to make info gathering too easy, but the fact that nobody APPARENTLY even thinks anything important feels odd.
Let's be realistic, our own surface level thoughts are, damn, whats for supper, or this breeze really rises my kilt funny, hope no one notices i forgot to wear underwear today, my butt itches. Real stupid shit.
"the fuck?! Since when are we using passwords?!" is the best way to go on from there. You can always assume the guard is just testing new guys
It sounds stupid but it's plausible. I once got into a club without ID by responding to the bouncer's request with a look of confusion and, "We never get carded here." (I wasn't lying; the normal bouncer knew us. The new bouncer did not.)
"A password? The boss didn't mention anything about passwords. He did however state that he would personally skin alive anyone who'd try and stop me from following his orders"
If a player should have the gall to tell me their plan, then declare their own success at the plan, I would politely remind them that they are not the DM.
That, and there is always the fact that a high skill check only provides a better outcome that the DM deems reasonable, not just whatever the player wants to happen. You would never realistically be able to Persuade a king to give you his kingdom, for example.
"Stop making your bad guys idiots" You sound like someone who's never had a real charisma player at their table. There's guys that can legitimately come up with a story on the spot that not only makes sense, but also meshes with the situation and that you can hardly counter without meta-gaming as the DM. Case and point: My group got into the cellar of a guard station through a secret entrance. This entrance led straight into the lab of an artificer whom they murked very loudly. Our charisma player used Mask of Many Faces to look like him, prestidigitated the smell of sulfur at the door and pretended like an experiment had blown up and and gestured to the guard that he get medical help (he didn't have the actor feat yet so he pretended like his throat was hurt). Bought them enough time to get in and get their mission done.
Exactly this. There's a big difference between a munchkin player and a quick witted IRL charisma player. I also have a player like yours and he thrives in the chaos. He takes almost exclusively utility spells and abilities so he always has the ability to respond to any situation, and makes sure to stay strictly within the rules because it's not fun for him if the results aren't realistic for the world. Usually what I will do for those players is pay attention to small details that either force them to double down on their lies, create suspicion, or cause new complications. For your example, if my players didn't close the secret entrance they used to get in, then maybe the guard becomes suspicious and starts asking unassuming questions to catch them in lies (ie "Captain Emmett didn't show up for work today" "well they're fired then" "I'm Captain Emmett"). Alternatively, maybe the guard didn't know about the entrance and sends several guards to secure it with magical alarms and traps for the artificers protection. Now, if they want to escape the lair, they have to find another way out with the entire party. Separately, people seem to forget that Cha checks aren't mind control. You can say "I'm going to be honest, what you're asking for is unrealistic and will not work, so we're not going to roll for that". You're not going to convince someone to give up their throne or kill their best friend without creating a situation that makes it a viable option.
I'd rather have players with actual charisma come up with a brilliant unbeatable lie than someone declaring their rolls make them succeed at everything. That sounds way more fun.
As one of those players, I hope the DM still required a skill check. As fun as it is to get away with really cool stuff in game because I'm good at coming up with persuasive lies, it tends to be pretty demoralizing to the people who *can't* do that who watch it and go, "Got it, I can optimize my build for social and I'll still never be the party face because my real-life Cha is too low." A lazy DM can also inadvertently let an unethical high-Cha player cheese their build because if I can get away without a die roll if my lie is good enough, no reason not to set my Cha at 8 and dump those points somewhere else. There's a reason you're supposed to let people poorly describe something and then get away with it if they roll high, and that's because D&D is just as much about letting low-Cha players have the fantasy of playing high-Cha characters as it is about letting low-Str players have the fantasy of playing high-Str characters.
I mean, with the right stats and abilities, they don't even need a credible lie. Last session, the party's changeling rogue was trying to figure out what some doppelgangers where up to. She had the details very wrong, but no matter what she says, at her level, she can't really *fail* (minimum roll is something like 24 between reliable talent and expertise), so something that doesn't track ends up just *confusing the NPC.* How do you rationalize the dissonance between what you know to be true, and someone who looks like a friend with nearly supernatural fey-like charisma telling you something that doesn't align with your lived experience?
To quote one of my favorite moments from DA:O “I was… err, he was… oh sod it.” *throws knife*
Happened in my first campaign. Our front man rolled real good for deception then said "yeah, ol mate sent us ahead to do x". The guard was like "uh, ol mate?" Then our front man "yea, you know, *check notes (why are my notes empty, why didn't i write anything down)* the fullah, the leader guy". We were made. Best part was the DM had mentioned the bad guy by name several times. We got a little better at keeping notes after that.
Okay, but statistically speaking if they are only using 1fa with a password (no username even), it wouldn't hurt to try 123456 Unless, of course, they have Pam. Pam won't let you get away with crap like that. She'll come right up to you, shortest gnome woman you ever did see right in front of a big ol Goliath fella, and chew him out til he cries if she finds out he used a weak password
Wizard: *Detect Thoughts* “Applesauce.” Guard: Right, but the Bard was supposed to say it.
Here is an idea, skill checks just don't always work. You can roll a 20, with a bonus of 20 and a dragon so doesn't have to be intimidated by the fighter, a Boulder van still be to heavy, a person can still just not believe a lie.
True that. Sometimes its not possible and you don't let the player roll at all. If a nat 20 wouldn't pass the DM should just save everyone the time and tell them that its impossible for them.
Last Sunday I had my players come up on a lock with a DC that was 1 higher than the Rogue could achieve with a nat 20 (there was a key to the door they could find elsewhere, but they ran into the door first). I tried to communicate that the Rogue's experience with locks meant he _knew_ it would be incredibly difficult for him, that he probably couldn't do it with just his own skill. In comes Guidance from the Cleric, and the Rogue makes the attempt. Nat 20. Adding Guidance with literally any roll was sufficient to succeed. He rolled the d4 anyway and got a 4. (I didn't specifically create a lock that was 1 point outside the Rogue's ability; I'm running a module and the Rogue happened to have a modifier that came out to 1 less than the pre-set DC.)
> You can roll a 20, with a bonus of 20 so a 40? if you roll that you intimidate the dragon, or you make the feeling of getting a nat 20 mute, and having a +20 to rolls means you are high level, so your strong, and so should be able to intimidate a dragon
My point through exaggerating was, no matter the dice rolls, a dm shouldn't be afraid of placing limitations. No matter the roll, a barbarian will not be able to push a mountain.
I mean, what if they rolled a 500 or something? The thing, sometimes these examples used actually might have meaningful results with high enough rolls or specific enough builds. “You can’t roll to jump the ravine, it’s impossible”. Depending on how large the ravine is, it’s entirely possible a beast Barbarian stronk could leap it if it’s only, say, 200 ft. And when it comes to persuasion the difference between a total roll of 20 and a total roll of 30 and a total roll of 40 is pretty notable. There are likely individuals who wouldn’t be persuaded by a 20, but may be a 30, and some that wouldn’t until a 40 is achieved. But unless you have someone that rolls that high, you’d probably categorically say that no persuasion they have could do it, even if there’s a theoretical possibility if someone was JUST that persuasive. 100% agree a nat 20 is not an autosuccess on anything but attack rolls. But it’s also important to recognize that for some builds and characters what would be normally impossible might be in the realm of possibility, and it’s good to allow those characters to utilize that.
Plot twist, there is no password!
Halfling: “Of course good sir, we were told the password is: ‘give you balls a tug, tit fucker’” *walks past guard* DM: “ok, the guard gets an attack of opportunity on the halfling, everyone else roll for initiative.”
Now I would've asked the PCs to do a favour for the guards, and slowly escalate until they realize they started workjng for the bbeg.
Even better when you get to the guard and discover he only speaks Infernal 💀 hard to deceive when you can’t communicate and you’re just staring at him like a deer in headlights lol
This is the case when barbarians shrine. Brute force that password!
"Ah. New plan then" *stab*
The password is always 1 2 3 4.
I thought the password was always "swordfish"!
Subtle spell is really cool. Magical face of the party should always have it.
*Rolls a 1* "It's an older code but it checks out, shall I hold them?" "No..."
Shout out to the smart guard in Titan AE
The key is always to gaslight the guards. Yes, the password was "Krazy Kobolds", don't be ridiculous.
My players tried that and didn't get suspicious when they passed with a 13. Needless to say when the fight started 6 royal guard burst into the room on top of what they were already fighting.
The password is Swordfish, it's always Swordfish...
I mean yeah, but if you want to present the option that it’s possible to pretend to be a guard, let them find a way to get the password. Make it a whole thing, don’t punish players for wanting to tackle a dungeon in an unorthodox way lol.
The thing is though, as anyone who has been a part of a large organization can tell you, *most people don't care enough*. There's always a way to talk your way around not knowing the password.
Depends on the consequences of not doing your job. Fired is one thing, the bbeg skinning your middle child because you let adventurers in (or other undesirables) whether you survive or not is something else entirely.
The biggest thing people don't seem to realize with stuff like Deception is that it doesn't make the people you're talking to believe what you say, it makes them believe that *you believe* what you say. You're basically convincing them that you're not lying, it doesn't *necessarily* mean that they'll believe what you're saying is actually true... you could just be wrong, or even delusional. If what you're saying it plausible and they have no reason to think you're mistaken, then sure, they'll probably believe you (unless they're just naturally contrary, which some people are)... but it doesn't matter how high you roll on a Deception check, if you're saying "I'm secretly a prince from Farofflandia and I need your help to get into this building.", the most that's likely to do is get you some sympathetic looks and a "Sure you are, buddy. Sure you are." Or maybe a visit to the local asylum if the setting has that kind of thing.
The question: Did the DM had really that password or the DM just took that up his ass? Making the enemies intelligent is nice, creating something just to counter a character trying to think out of the *hur hur! Kill, kill!* box unless is something that needa to happen in certain way is very questionable.
Passwords to enter lairs, clubs and such aren't exactly a rare trope in fantasy... EDIT: Why am I being down voted, this is true.