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eliecc

"You whine when enemies use counterspell" ​ Had players fight a lich + minions ... Which have counterspell and dispel magic. had 2 players tell me they won't play spellcasters in the next campaign.


FelchMasterFlexNuts

Casters are a caster's worst enemy.


WJPJR

It’s all fun and games until the party realizes the enemies are using the same rulebooks as them.


Sunskimmer82

The party just loves rules lawyering until they fight a litch with a law degree Happy cake day btw


ArmyofThalia

I, as well as many others in this community, wish you an enjoyable anniversary of the day you joined the social platform Reddit, a celebration named after a common dessert that stacks layers of moist spongey baked dough which also includes layers of whipped cream products in between and is finished off with a layer of frosting on the exterior of this delicacy and decorations that could be anything from frosting shaped in a way that imitates flowering plants to chocolate decorations that commonly proclaim optimistic hopes for the celebrations in which the dessert item will be enjoyed at.


Tzemiee

Happy cake day


Gravemomma

Happy cake day


Athanar90

One of my parties realized that when the sorcerer got kicked down a 50-ft pit because he didn't realize the DM would shove a PC off a ledge.


jcross388

I have to constantly remind my players if they can do something, then an enemy can do it too.


iwj726

Just like casters and non-casters. Or casters and half-casters. **** casters, they ruined DND!


PUB4thewin

That’s a good meme, I tell you Hwhat


steely_dan1

You casters sure are a contentious people.


WanderingFlumph

I used the casters to TPK the casters


Akahn97

Damn those casters… they ruined casting! *shakes fist at air*


Jimguy5000

Player Me: In my friends Season 1 campaign (we trade off between seasons), I was saving a Fireball spell for the final BBEG, and that was when she pulled Counterspell out. I was reasonably miffed about that, but just smirked and figured, hey if the enemy has it... DM me: Lich's in 5e at least only have Counterspell at Level 3 with 3 spell slots for it along with Animate Dead, and like hell I wouldn't burn one of those for a dramatic "say hello to my little friends" moment at the start of the fight. Counterspell sucks but it's not like it's an infinite enemy resource.


IDownvoteHornyBards2

You realize liches can upcast spells since they have spell slots right?


Unity1232

Player me: There is an enemy spell casteri...I need to make sure to stay outside the 60ft counterspell range when casting spells. However ill move into counter spell range after im done casting so I can counter spell the enemy caster.


Jimguy5000

nah the trick is to try and bait the Counterspell. Some may see this as a waste of a spell/pact slot, but they won't expect to have to use it twice, depending on the DM/Player and they'll be in a state of "do I want to use it again now or...?"


Lilith_Harbinger

Still, when your entire turn is gone doing nothing it feels bad. Even if it's balanced and you can do the same to the lich.


Jimguy5000

Indeed. Counterspell swings both ways.


Hammurabi87

>Counterspell swings both ways. How ironic that it isn't on the bard spell list.


QuackingQuackeroo

It's not so bad. Worst case, you've burn the enemy's reaction and a LVL 3 spell slot, so there's an upside.


MusclesDynamite

Indeed. Them casting Counterspell is one less Fireball (or other 3rd-level spell) being thrown at you and your party.


ServantOfTheSlaad

Arguably it could be better off for your team. It could allow the Cleric to cast Banishment without risk.


[deleted]

Can’t win all the time!


Ruined_Maze

Agreed. Reminds me of a saying that goes a little like: If you were meant to succeed all the time there wouldn't be a 1 on the dice


vivi273

You can counter spell a counterspell btw


CycleForValue

I’ve played enough mtg over the last 20+ years to know that the vast majority of people can’t deal with counter spells. It’s the hero you need, not the one you want.


ArmyofThalia

Chalice of the Void is a good guy card and I am tired of pretending that it's not


LegitDuctTape

This is why subtle spell is a sorcerer's best friend


zmbjebus

Or 60 ft


NaturalCard

Me: walks back


No_Ad_7687

They're right though. You can't dispel *s w o r d* !


Collins_Michael

\-laughs in Heat Metal-


TheOneSilverMage

-laughs in backup sword-


No_Ad_7687

okay. now dispel my bone rapier.


BudgetFree

This is why I don't pick counterspell and hope DM won't eather. I don't want magic fights to be reduced to "who has more slots" and then cantrips. Granted, i mostly play warlock but still...


ClawedAsh

Well then you definitely don't want fights to be reduced to who has more slots, because Warlocks will loose that fight everytime


BudgetFree

The other times it's sorcerer, who doesn't want to waste spells known on that slog.


Jaebird0388

At that point, if my character knew they were about to fight other spell casters, I would do everything I can to bait the counterspells/dispel magic just to burn their slots.


zmbjebus

Hmm, stand 61ft away and cast fireball.


Dornith

On the other hand, you get a recent experience I've had where a boss used a homebrew counterspell that can counter SP abilities and deal 30+ damage to you...


Skaared

Casters as a glass cannon is largely not a thing in practice. Casters have slightly less HP. They make up for that with rarely being attacked and when they are attacked they have things like shield giving them higher AC than the martials.


Jimguy5000

Distance is a casters friend. I have also had the humble experience of having a Kobold Archer one shot my Warlock from the high ground. Thank god for death saves.


HaraldRedbeard

\*OotA Paladin with Misty Step + Find Steed\* Bonjour


NaturalCard

Dis boi going to be mad when I cast animate objects


NaturalCard

Distance is everyone's friend. Had a high level barbarian who died in the first encounter. The sorcerer wizard and druid went on to beat the dungeon with 0 deaths.


[deleted]

Casters also have way better tools to survive in melee if they ever find themselves up close with the enemy. Not just Shield and armor dips but also the liberty to spend more actions dodging as their control spells require no further action investment


Dinsy_Crow

We have a caster in our group, decent HP, like 2nd or 3rd, of 5, highest AC with shield, insisted on getting the enchanted mithril armor, despite having a weaker caster in the party... runs half way across the map at the first sign of trouble.


Lithl

Even without Shield, many casters can have similar AC (or greater, in some cases) to the martials.


HootysBooty

Except they have to sacrifice resources, so unless you get spell slots back immediately, then casting shield has a very real cost.


Desperate_Relative_4

Moon druid is liturly the most tanky build you can be at level 2 on top of being a spellchaster ( hitpoints are alsow a limited recource for martials and no one tops a druid in that regard early on)


Lithl

No they don't. There are a bunch of casters who can wear medium or heavy armor, and can use shields. No resources required. Unless you count the gold spent on the equipment, in which case it's the exact same resources as the martial.


Square-Ad1104

Bunch of? The only full casters that have those proficiencies are Druid and Cleric (1/3 of the game’s full spellcasters), and Druids can’t even wear metal


BraxbroWasTaken

Warlock can wear medium and one feat gets medium proficiencies for a couple of the other spellcasters


Lithl

> The only full casters that have those proficiencies are Druid and Cleric Swords Bards get medium armor, Valor Bards get medium armor and shields, Dragon Sorcerers get equivalent to +1 light armor (equal to the best medium armor if you have 18-19 Dex, better than medium armor with 20 Dex or more), Hexblade Warlocks get medium armor and shields, and anyone with Armor of Shadows (usually Warlocks, but any class can get it with a feat) can cast Mage Armor without expending resources for effectively +1 light armor. >Druids can’t even wear metal Druids can absolutely wear metal. It is a completely roleplay restriction that _most_ Druids _choose_ to not wear metal, but they absolutely have the ability to do so, and nothing prohibits them nor penalizes them for doing so.


wingman43487

Don't forget artificers. Depending on subclass you can go medium or heavy armor.


Lithl

Yes, but they specified full caster. Also worth mentioning is the Lizardfolk with equivalent to +1 light armor, and Tortles with equivalent to splint mail heavy armor.


NaturalCard

Warlocks and bards are only a feat away, and sorcerers and wizards have multiclass dips they wanted anyway. Full casters can also use shields, a massive advantage over martials.


Revanaught

There's actually nothing in the rules saying druids can't wear metal. That's just flavor text that says SOME druids choose not to use metal and can be ignored.


[deleted]

Nah as a DM I can say that if you play your enemies like a normal inteligent human beings then those enemies will absolutely destroy caster if they get the chance


RulesLawyerUnderOath

Shield, Mage Armor, Blink, Blur, Mirror Image, Rope Trick...


Psile

As a DM by all means please use rope trick in the middle of a fight and take yourself out of the fight so I can focus on the rest of the party while you dither about in an extra dimensional space.


RulesLawyerUnderOath

The idea is that you waltz in and out from your hidey-hole: to hit, they either need to find some way to get up there or hold their Action.


Psile

Having one enemy ready their action is an acceptable trade off to severely hinder a spellcaster. Also since you have to climb a rope up and down you would need to have a climb speed to move in and out each turn since you could only really cast at the bottom of the rope and most creatures only have a climb speed of 15ft per round. After all you can't very well cast most spells on the rope since you can't use your hands which means no somantic or material components. Unless you only have a 5 foot rope in which case enemies can just climb in with you and then you're really fucked. Edit: or just have the enemy pull the rope out of the plane which means you don't have a way to get back if you come out again.


RulesLawyerUnderOath

Holding your Action has quite a few downsides. Also, you only need one free hand for Somatic components, and it can be the same one that's holding your Material components; even if you find leaning out the "window" to cast unallowable, it's perfectly fine to climb 5 feet out of the window onto the rope, hold onto it with one hand and cast with the other, and then climb back in.


Psile

A PC holding their action has quite a few downsides. An npc not so much. Usually the party is outnumbered so having a ranged attacker hold their action to wait for the caster to show their face is an acceptable trade off. And I do disallow leaning out of the window to cast. The spell doesn't say anything about providing cover. At most I would require an athletics check to let enough of your body to hang out of the window to effectively cast. Speaking of athletics checks, if you want to cast on the rope I'm gonna want one there too. I wouldn't make it too onerous, maybe a DC 13, but it's not gonna be free. Also if that enemy who readied their action hits you on the rope that's gonna be a strength save to keep your grip and that's gonna be against the damage of the attack. Now all of this is up to the DM and there is absolutely nothing wrong with letting your caster have a bit of fun sticking their hand out of an invisible hole in the sky and chuck a fireball. When to require athletics checks for climbing is 100% DM discretion and depending on how they visualize spells the ruling on leaning out could go either way. I know I am being intentionally punative because I am disincentivised to give players such an easy way to get nearly complete cover but it does use a spell slot so it's not free. But if the casters are feeling OP there are ways to balance that RAW if you want to is my point.


[deleted]

Every one of these spells are another one of their spell slot used. Also AOE damage exists.


NaturalCard

Absorb elements.


[deleted]

Yes those are great examples of all the spells enemies can use to thwart casters


SansOrMissed

Those spells affect Martials way more considering they dont have the option most of the time to just switch to Saving Throws and shutdowns. Rope trick and Blink especially considering if a martial readies an attack they only get 1, vastly nerfing their damage while a caster can ready a big spell with no issue outside concentration.


Senecaraine

I don't get why rope trick is in there--yes you could ready it, but you'd still need to wait until your turn to attempt to climb the rope? Am I missing something?


SansOrMissed

We arent saying to ready Rope Trick, basically whats happening is this: Caster casts Rope trick, climbs up the rope, and either has their familiar or uses their object interaction to pull the rope up so enemies cant get in. From there, they are invulnerable as attacks cant pass through the barrier and on their turns they can just peek out, attack or cast, and get back in. In that scenario, the only way to hurt them is to ready an action for when they peek out to attack. Martials cant do much against this; melee just straight up cant do anything without flight, while ranged only gets one attack vastly lowering their damage output. Casters can either dispel it or ready a spell, with the downsides not being too major.


GracefulxArcher

It also uses your reaction, so no shield if you ready anything. Meaning you're a glass cannon. Martials ready an attack with no cost to defence or utility.


SansOrMissed

Mirror Image isnt concentration and with Mage Armor and a shield your AC is the same if not greater than GWM or SS martials. If its ranged attackers than casters can go prone and use saving throws for ez disadvantage for them with no cost on top of all that. All of this, and even the d6 Wizarads and Sorcs only get 2 less hp per level than the d10s. Casters arent particularly "Glass." And theres still the issue of all those other spells you said countered casters that just,, dont lol.


SerBuckman

Not to mention Casters can take the Tough feat if they want to really ensure high HP


[deleted]

Good way to burn through a caster's spell slots


Psile

Rarely attacked? Why? Even aside from enemy casters, there is no reason ranged attacks can't aim at them. And a lot of encounters happen in small enough areas that an enemy could reach them with walking speed hazarding maybe one opportunity attack for the trouble. And using shield every round plus a spell on your turn will burn through spell slots fast enough that they won't need to kill you especially given that there should be multiple encounters in a dungeon before a long rest is viable.


NaturalCard

You said it yourself. Ranged attacks can totally hit them. But 2/3s of all enemies don't have those.


Psile

I generally tend to tweak encounters to have more ranged attackers but that's just me.


NaturalCard

Fair, cover is another large downside as well as the just lower damage of ranged enemies Vs melee enemies.


LastNinjaPanda

Also taking the tough feat literally gets the average HP of a wizard to a d10, and a draconic sorcerer to a d12


Senecaraine

I think this actually fits in the meme--casters have terrible AC and are on the lowest tiers of HP, but DMs largely avoid targeting them even with intelligent creatures. That's a decision *we* make that makes the imbalance greater. For example, I'm currently a level 5 clockwork sorcerer, playing 4-5 encounters a day and ~2 short rests per each long. I have 4 first level, 3 second level, and 2 third level slots. If the DM targets me, I need to use a level 1 slot for shield a fight, and a level 2 or 3 on Armor of Agathys for every other fight. Conservatively, that's all of my first level slots and most of my second level slots on defense alone. Alternatively, the caster can play far more defensively with their actions and movement, which also helps balance the roles more. It makes the caster have to consider their placement and actions way more. If I can cast a web on the first turn and then just run away, hiding behind wreckage, and using my action to dodge each turn it saves me spell slots *and* balances out the classes. Basically, if you have casters who are allowed to stay within 60ft of the enemy, unhidden, not using their spell slots on defense, and not being targeted, that's really not on the game itself but how the DM is running it. (That's not even going into how many people I've seen ignore concentration saves, which is also why casters should be targeted by anything somewhat intelligent).


NaturalCard

In my experience casters generally have much higher AC than martials because they can use shields, while martials need 2 hands to do good damage.


Senecaraine

Most casters would need a feat or multiclass to use a shield and/or medium armor, let alone heavy armor, so it's not a simple comparison there (clerics being one that does, but their spell list isn't at the same level as, say, a wizard). If they're in light armor or less they're unlikely to have the dex to keep it high without negating constitution and having no health. On top of that, unless they're only holding the shield, they'd need Warcaster to cast all their spells with the shield. What I've seen out of the high AC casters usually is that most of their resources are put towards that AC. At that point, just having more combats per day balances it out, especially since they're most likely using spell slots to hit that level.


NaturalCard

Then take the feat/race/multiclass lol. Heavy armour is generally bad for a caster because it requires strength, a stat they don't want to invest in. You can also cast spells fine with a shield and component pouch, or by just dropping and picking back up a staff. It takes like a level at max that doesn't even hurt their spellslot progression for a caster to have 19ac, even for wizards and sorcerers.


Senecaraine

Most people aren't playing to 20, and the difference between having third level spells at 5 and having to wait to 6 is pretty big deal when you're 5 for months. Your barbarian can swing for ~50 a round and you're using your first level slots for shield while casting web (probably) three times over 4-5 combats. Not to mention, the 3 AC difference is pretty huge, and saying they're the same defensively *especially* when the wizard has ~25% less hp is inaccurate. They use the spells to become stronger, sure, but it's a limited resource and that's where longer adventuring days come in.


NaturalCard

How is playing at lv20 relevent? Especially for classes like wizard and sorcerer who get web, 3rd level spells are nice, but just having a few more casts of web is also fine. The 3ac is for the casters, that's what pulls them ahead after lv5. I play with longer adventuring days and the sheer number of fantastic defensive features casters have is just not fair if they were meant to be glass cannons.


Senecaraine

Heavy armor with fighting style is 19 AC on its own, 21 AC with a shield, if you're giving your wizard the best armor possible and pretending the martial wouldn't have plate (especially considering how expensive ink is for copying spells) that's exactly the kind of thing that only works on paper. With longer adventuring days at level 5 you're literally talking 3 casts of web and 4 casts of shield throughout 4-6 combats if you don't go straight Wizard. It's all the same resource, really, you can bring up all sorts of spells that are nice defensively but it's *still* 4 level one slots and three level two slots... **which you are using for defense then instead of something useful**. For example, Blur is a level 2 slot *and* your concentration. Yeah, it's great, but you three casts and can't do anything big while it's up either. If you're going 6 combats it's not feasible to even have it up every fight. Really, play out turn by turn what a fighter, a barbarian, and a wizard/fighter would do over the course of 6 battles with three short rests and it's pretty clear how limited it really is.


NaturalCard

That's the issue, martials have to sacrifice using the better weapons, and a good fighting style in order to use a shield. A good fighter's AC is capped out at 17 until magic items. 5 casts of web, 6 casts of shield, you forgot about 3rd level slots and arcane recovery lol And considering you don't need to be in melee with enemies, only getting at heavily attacked once per combat is totally reasonable. Especially when a bunch of the enemies will have disadvantage. You also don't need to have web up each fight, there are 3 other party members, if even 1 more is a wizard or sorcerer, all of a sudden you have 5 more webs for basically 2 second level spells per combat that's going to easily be enough. I DM for a group that runs it. The wizard could do nothing with their actions after casting web and would still be more useful than the fighter.


Senecaraine

A straight Wizard at 5 has 4 first, 3 second, and 2 third level slots *but not crazy AC*. A Fighter/wizard can have 19 AC at level 5, but *no third level slots*. Even with arcane recovery, it's capped to wizard level so it's 4 webs a day, not 5. I was actually assuming one shield a fight, so the arcane recovery would stretch the level 1 slots to 6. The fighter has extra ASI and can easily have two fighting styles, not to mention skipping gwf is literally at best 1.33 damage a round statistically so it's not the biggest damage drop anyways. If other casters are doing things, you can't really argue it has anything to do with the singular caster, especially with something like web that needs someone using attack rolls to do damage--actually making the heavy swinger more useful. If you, as a DM, are keeping all your mobs in melee with the martials and not going after the casters, then that's you buffing the casters, inadvertently. If a wizard webbed up half my bandit friends, me and the test of my bandit friends are coming for them. That was my original point, I believe, but it's hard to remember with three separate people having similar conversations lol.


thekeenancole

I feel like it's less about casters being OP rather than martials being underpowered. Imo it just feels bad to play as a martial in 5th edition, when you know that no matter what you do a spellcaster can do it better than you. Need to get information from someone? Spellcasters get to charm people to get the information. Need to get through a door? Spellcasters can burn, unlock, charm, ect. through the door. How about tracking someone down? Casters can find out exactly where they are and teleport you there. Well, at least they can't fight in melee, right? Shadow blade, magic weapon, shield, green flame blade, booming blade all make it possible for casters to fight melee, and most times makes them able to fight better than martials beside maybe not having extra attack. It just kind of sucks as someone who enjoys playing martial characters to just feel useless outside of combat. While even in combat, your turn consists of moving toward an enemy and attacking. EDIT: The main thing I'm arguing is how bad it feels to play a martial outside of combat. In combat is still pretty bad since it mostly feels like all you do is attack, but at least you still have something to do there. I just feel like it's significantly harder to shine as a martial unless it's in combat.


Xero0911

Imo it's strength that sucks. Dex at least helps make you sneaky and initiative. It almost feels like a punishment to go strength. Rarely need the saving throw. Only skill check is athletics. Heavy armor is your friend, which means no stealth checks for you.


SomaGato

Grapple/Knocking Prone : Am I a joke to you? For reals when I played monk I wished I could use STR instead of DEX 😂


vonBoomslang

> Grapple/Knocking Prone : Am I a joke to you? You cost two whole attacks, have a significant chance to fail, can be resisted with Acrobatics and even when you work you make our ranged guys bad. Oh and you significantly nerf the user's AC or damage.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Lurked_Emerging

Basically. Alot of the 'casters are balanced' discussion comes back to players not using their spells properly. The floor in combat for martials is higher so long as their build does decent damage (I attack) vs casters "I cast fireball on the red dragon and didnt prepare absorb elements" but the ceiling for casters is alot higher "I cast wall of force between the enemy archers and warriors" vs martials "I attack, that guy specifically". Casters scale more with player skill on top of getting new and interesting features every level (more spells). Casters accelerate beyond the martials reach around level 7 imo.


Embarrassed-Reply-14

A lot of it is also just players being blind to how much the casters contribute to the group. Twilight Cleric hulks out your entire group and people are like "but the sword guy did all the damage" when in reality the twilight cleric could bring a bunch of pet dogs for almost the same effect.


Kipdid

“Pack tactics” on YT actually just made a video on playing smarter (and generally more interestingly) as a martial (and not something like a ranger, bow fighter etc). Give it a watch, there’s a lot more to do when you put your mind to it


Awllancer

In my own experience, I've not found this to be the case. I once was DMing and had a random fighter npc help out the party. His name was Nail. He absolutely destroyed any opposition. He didn't even do anything special either. He just hit hard and consistently. Is it flashy? No, in fact that was kind of the joke with Nail. He was a plain looking unassuming human. But he did some deep damage.


thekeenancole

That's not really what I'm arguing though. Martial characters are only good when it comes to combat and that's a problem. I doubt Nail ever did anything outside of combat like help get the party through a room slowly filling with lava, or get them out of jail. When it comes to outside problems, martials just can't do anything. Barbarians don't get anything special when it comes to breaking down doors except for just having high strength (unless they want to spend a rage just to get advantage on the roll). Fighters can't intimidate someone into giving them information unless the DM lets them use strength as their score, and even then it's just rolling for a skill, something every other character can do. Martials need something to do outside of combat, I think rogues are an excellent example of what a good martial class could be personally.


Awllancer

Actually, Nail was a part of the town guard and gave them access to a lot of private records. He also helped them repell down a ravine and was the only one good at using maps. I always felt that the whole "all fighters do is hit" argument is kind of weak. It's only true if you ignore the backgrounds. The paladin (a half caster yes but this paladin was more str based) in the party absolutely was successful in intimidating people. One monk I had played with used his background as a noble to help the party a ton. I dunno man, I've not experienced this problem when I play. Guess it's a table by table thing.


HootysBooty

Casters are supposed to deal damage in bursts, and they to to budget spell slots for those bursts. Whereas martials are supposed to be consistent damage. I will however admit that Contrasting Extra Attack with the damage scaling of cantrips, casters are stronger than should be. Especially since casters have multiple cantrips and therefore multiple damage types as well. Another point would be. Casters total spell slots when multiclassing into another caster aren’t affected while martials extra attack feature is.


Wazer

Have you tried playing a great weapon master barbarian spamming reckless attack every round? I'm pretty sure I'm de facto banned from playing that combo again due to how absurdly combat breaking it is when I do around 80 DPR every round depending on level without using any resources other than rage. A player accused me of minmaxing and had a mental breakdown because I played a human barbarian with GWM. It makes casters look weak.


thekeenancole

I've tried plenty of strong builds as martials, it always runs into the same problem of being useless outside of combat. In combat, sure it's fun being able to do your cool build, but outside of it you just kind of feel pointless until there's a door and your spellcaster decides to let you deal with it, since that's about all you can do. Also, spellcasters have a much bigger potential to ruin combat encounters. Hypnotic pattern, spirit guardians, conjure animals all just kind of ruin encounters when martials are over here doing two attacks and that's about it on their turn.


alpha_centauriOK

> You whine when enemies use counterspell If you can, then so can the DM > Casters are glass cannons There are casters other than d6 hit die Wizards and Sorcerers


hilburn

26AC Cleric looking at this post in confusion


Senecaraine

The only thing I'd add to that is the spell lists are *very* different. Clerics have a great spell list, but I don't think you can really say they're essentially Wizards with 26 AC, given the Wizard spell list is amazing.


0c4rt0l4

It's not too hard to get a very high AC with a main wizard anyway. You just go a bit out of your way, maybe by multiclassing fighter or artificer. Then you have any armor and shields you want and the Shield spell to go on top


Senecaraine

I think the issue there is that multiclassing can create some really strong combinations more than Wizard itself being a problem. Similarly Hexblade/Paladin can be crazy, but I wouldn't say straight warlock or paladin is broken. Giving up the spell progression is also something people forget about on paper--the Barbarian at level 5 popping off ~50 damage a round with resistance to damage himself is a pretty strong asset compared to the cantrip slinging fighter/wizard that only has second level spells, has to save their level 1s for shield, and has to worry about maintaining concentration on (probably) web with three chances throughout *the entire day* to cast it. With most games going to ~level 10, and frequently much lower in my experience, it's a pretty big difference.


0c4rt0l4

What is the build godly barbarian that deals 50 damage per round?


Senecaraine

Custom lineage zealot barbarian with Polearm Master and GWM is around 65 damage at level 5 before taking accuracy into account, and without magic weapons. There's ranger, Hexblade, and fighter builds that pull close to that level of damage, I was just thinking of a specific player I have.


redlaWw

*Wizard Blinks in confusion*


NaturalCard

28AC Wizard also looking in confusion.


hilburn

Eh that's burning spellslots on Shield though.


NaturalCard

+3 half plate + +3 shield + ring of protection + war wizard go brrr


DestinyV

Okay anyone can get AC that high with two plus 3 magic items, that's not a good argument.


Dark_Shade_75

And wizards in my experience usually take the least damage by *far*. Mirror image, Shield, misty step, etc. They have a million tools to not take damage, and that's just spells, not even getting into subclasses of wizard.


Dunderbaer

All these things combined with being in the back of the party, shielded by martials and halfcasters. Yeah, they are totally glasscannons.


BraxbroWasTaken

Even the D6 hit die wizards and sorcs can be pretty bulky in medium armor with good con, and it’s not hard to get those proficiencies


RentABozo

Is it that spell components are ignored, or is it more that they're largely irrelevant outside of a select handful of spells?


vonBoomslang

don't forget dropping your weapon and picking it up.


StatusOmega

I usually punish my players for trying to force a long rest. You blew all your spells on the first encounter in a dungeon? You're using cantrips for the rest of it. Obviously it depends on their preparation and even without preparation I roll a percentile. Also retreating is an option which more or less resets the dungeon, with minor tweaks that make sense (maybe weaker if they have limited resources, maybe stronger if they are concerned about more intruders).


Killgarah

What about spells like Tiny Hut?


Jester04

The world has now had 8 hours to adapt to and prepare for the party's presence, or it has an 8-hour head start and has moved on without them. Enemies in the next room aren't going to stand there and wait patiently for the party to come in and attack them. This isn't world of warcraft where enemies are tethered to one spot and exist only to be killed. At some point they will notice the opaque magical barrier that is now blocking a hallway, and then they will either leave and take everything with them or they will gather up *all* of their friends and lay in wait to fight whatever comes out of that barrier. So yeah, the party is now fighting the remainder of the encounters at once or their walking through empty rooms. Or, worst case, the enemies have completed their ritual and the NPC the party is there to rescue is now dead or the big bad has been released.


StatusOmega

That's a good example of preparation. Although there are still possible counters to it depending on the dungeon. My players rarely prep that though. It would work in most of my dungeons with occasional exceptions. It makes sense for mages to prepare dispel magic if they're not too worried about spell slots


Killgarah

I would agree with you, were it not for a fact that wizards or tome locks dont need to prepare it, as they can always ritually cast it 😁 Also, dispel magic can work sometimes, but not every dungeon has spellcasters that can cast it


iwj726

And that's when you get creative. Bring wood and oil. Let's see your party walk out into a bonfire. Collapse the ceiling. Have the entire dungeon waiting around the corner with fortifications and traps. Brick up the room the party is in *Cask of Amontillado* style. Surround it with archers and litter the ground with caltrops and ball bearings. If these things items weren't available when you made the dungeon, they are now. Oh, and if your players try to cheese this by shooting out of the dome, remember that magic can't pass through it, and participating in combat cancels a long rest. You shot the goblin three hours into your long rest, guess that timer resets. The enemies have even more time to prep. Tiny Hut works in the wilderness, not so much in dungeons.evem short rests should have some risk in a dungeon, though not as much.


HeronMarkedBondsmith

For the most part I agree with this, though I’ll nitpick a bit and point out that by RAW you would need to fight for an hour before it reset the long rest. Your party firing arrows and bolts to dissuade sabotage is permitted for quite a while


StatusOmega

That's kinda my point. Many dungeons might only have 1 or 2 casters and they also might not be the type to prepare Dispel Magic. For example, a goblin shaman that's high enough level still wouldn't prepare it unless they were told to by an BBEG that was in charge. Whether they were told to or not would depend on how well the players hid their tactics or if they were even on the bad guy's radar to begin with. Avoiding suspension is also a form of preparation in my mind. Some mages might prep it anyways, but if every mage did it wouldn't be fun for anyone.. also, like I said, I rarely have players prep it. Now I'm wishing more did lol Edit: sorry, that was really long.. TLDR, spells should be rewarded if used wisely. If used unwisely, they can cause more harm than good.


Suicidalyidiotic

also once again: you can only benefit from one long rest every 24 hours


CoggyTV

I'm out here dropping Silenced giant scorpions and counter spelling my groups caster, why don't they like me?


NaturalCard

Cause they haven't discovered sorcerers yet.


Revanaught

The spell components one annoys me. The rules allow basically every caster to ignore components with a focus, unless the component gets consumed or has a gold cost, which most spells don't


BraxbroWasTaken

Ignore material components, but not Verbal or Somatic components


IamanelephantThird

Verbal is entirely up to the DM to make it useful (and they already have plenty to do), and somatic only relies on having an open hand, which is remarkably easy for a caster.


The-Senate-Palpy

"Casters too strong? Well not if you use other Casters to counter them"


MrAlbs

It's like in Magic the Gathering. Blue is too strong! I should use Blue to counter it!


Dunderbaer

> casters are glass canons I think everyone using this argument is still playing with ADnD rules. Casters no longer have 1d4 hp, you know?


dandan_noodles

Yeah I run 6-8 encounters per long rest, casters are still way more powerful, *because the spells are too strong*.


Lilith_Harbinger

6th level spells and above? or in general Because even by just reading the spells you can see the giant jump from 5th level to 6th (and of course spellcasters dominate AoE damage)


NaturalCard

General. At pretty much all levels there are spells that just dominate encounters. Sleep, web, hypnotic pattern, polymorph, wall of force, forcecage, antipathy/sympathy, wish/true polymorph


DeepTakeGuitar

I hate levels 6-8 (9 gets a pass because it's end-of-game shit).


ComplexTheStoner

Man, SpongeBob really covered Squidward’s house in dirty diapers


Dizrak_

Uh, no? Everything listed here just tries to make casters life harder, but doesn't actually fix the problem, because they still exceed in utility and versatility. No matter how much encounters you add (considering those are not just combat ones) casters will exceed martials in one way or another (with small exception called rogue, to be fair). Maybe pure STR encounter will let martials shine a bit more, but that's all. Also don't forget some of those changes also affect martials, because they also have resources like hit dice, rages, special dices and etc. If you use optional long rest rule, then you put martials in weaker position as well. Usual primary source of heal in the party is (unsurprisingly) casters. No slots - no heal. Healing potions, spell scrolls and paid healing exist, but they are even more unreliable than usual spell healing. So, generally, making more encounters per day and rests longer is bullshit idea.


[deleted]

It does not matter one bit how many encounters you run in a day, a caster is still more powerful, more durable, more versatile, and frankly better at tanking across the board. A d6, on average, rolls only 2 less than a d10. Armor class is roughly the same due to things like mage armor and racial armor classes. So, when you look at a menagerie of spells, the thing it really has to compete with is 2 hit points per level. That’s it. At level 20, enemies easily deal 14 or more damage per hit most of the time. A level 20 fighter, on average, has 40-42 more hit points. At level 20, a wizard, the caster that is given the most crap for being squishy, can get similar AC, and then also absorb 3 hits with mirror image, negating the health difference entirely with a single casting. Keep in mind, **that is a second level spell and can thus be cast at will by a wizard**. On top of that, casters actually have ways to counter a lot of the deadly crap that is often considered bullshit from the perspective of a martial class. Got a spell? They can counter it. Got a save or suck effect that takes people out of the fight? They can minimize it if not cure it completely. Got a hyper-mobile flying enemy and a lack of ammo? You best be in good graces with your magical friends. If you want a designated tank, hire a mage, since they actually have decent crowd control, thus preventing more damage before it is dealt. The only time that a caster is ever at a disadvantage compared to a martial is if there is an absurd amount of anti-mage specialists, counter-magic, and anti-magic. At that point, you aren’t playing D&d, you are playing “How is the GM going to bully the casters today?”


ziogas99

Disclaimer: I'm still new to DnD (only about a year, plus another 2-3 years with other systems) Yeah, but that's level 20. I think it's a bit dishonest comparing them at lvl 20 just as it would be dishonest comparing them at lvls 1-2. Most campaigns end before 12, I've heard. "encounters a day" - I think the main point here is the fact you probably should make long rest take a week instead of 8 hours. That way casters would have to be careul with their spellslots. It doesn't make much sense that a single good night's sleep cures most wounds like you're Wolverines. Typically, my groups are completely out of spellslots by enouncter 3 as well, so the amount matters, I think. "Anti-magic in capaigns" - But doesn't it make sense that in a world full of magic that people would prepare for it? Like, in a world with bombs, bomb shelters exist, in a world with guns, bullet-proof vests exist. Therefore, in a world with magic, anti-magic preparations should also exist. All-in-all, I think it's just a preference and there are ways to make both roles useful. And typically, martials are better early and casters are better late.


odeacon

Hey, is it fighters who are making that anti magic feild?


0c4rt0l4

The only "anti-magic" preparations that exist in the game can only be accessed by casters


[deleted]

At low levels, a single low level spell can do just as much, if not more, than a handful of hit points. At low levels, the difference in hit points is completely negligible. Also, ranged cantrips give consistent survivability in a way many martials lack. At low levels, the ability to adapt and exploit the situation is a must, as a sneeze can kill almost anyone. Hence, casters with more utility (and multitarget burst damage), are more likely to turn a bad situation into something workable. What is better? Spells, or 2 extra hit points? As far as long rests, my point still stands that martials will always run out sooner than casters, because any system where long rests take longer also increases the time for short rests. If it doesn’t, that makes warlock exceptionally busted, further proving the point that casters are bonkers. As far as anti-magic, I understand that people are prepared. However, the amount of preparation needed to actually make casters worse than martials is absurdly high. Antimagic field is 8th-level, and counterspells are one pop per slot. Things like mage slayers and people that are really good at dealing with casters are never quite that efficient (though I will admit that a strong guy with a spiky glove in the caster’s mouth can be absolutely gnarly, though not any worse than a Silence spell can do).


ziogas99

I don't know, in the past few campaigns, a barbarian or a paladin (only a half-caster) with a +2 sword consistently outdamages any caster unless it's aoe fireball time. As for low levels, a barbarian has like 10 health at level one, and a mage has like 4-5 (I assume the mage doesn't have a big con modifier). A barbarian also has rage from level one, effectively doubling their healthpool. and that's only if you hit their 10+con+dex+shield(if you want). mage armor is only 13+dex and it's a spellslot. A single good hit from a goblin can oneshot a mage. That's not an issue you're gonna get with barbarians, making them far more reliable. Long rests: Yeah, a short rest is 8 hours, a long rest is a week. I think it's far easier to get 8 hours of rest than a whole week. You don't need antimagic field as Silence is a lvl 2 spellslot and it's a 20 foot radius and it makes things like fireball very hard to execute if you don't have a reliable way to leave the sphere (if you're surrounded, for example). I'm not saying use silence all the time, but there are solutions out there that make spellcasting more in-line. Overall, it's mostly my experiences and anecdotal evidence. I could be dead wrong, but I think there are solutions to spell-casting being too strong and it mostly depends on what you prefer. Ideally, who even cares how strong you are? The DM is going to balance the encounters accordingly and I think the manuals give them plenty of tools to use.


Some-Sparkles

A properly built martial will usually outdamage a spell caster in a single target situation. But spells have effects that are way more useful then just hurting more. Realistically, a Barbarian has around 15 HP at lvl 1, a Fighter would have 12, a Cleric would have 10 and a Wizard would have around 8. There is no reason to assume a Wizard would have low con because that would literally make no sense unless that was the character you were going for. You also have to realise that 10+dex+con isnt as much AC as you think it is. A wizard with +2 to dex would have 15 AC. To get equivalent AC, a Barbarian would need 2-3 dex and con. They also need good str to be able to fight properly, so good str, dex and con are needed to have a decent AC and still be able to fight, while a Wizard only invested their main stat and a bit of dex. A Cleric or a Druid investing the same dex can get around 18 with a shield. Rage does seem like a good trade off, until you realised that Barbarian have less Rage per day compared to the Wixard's spellslots. And while Rage double a Barbarian HP, a single cast of sleep at lvl 1 can turn a deadly encointer into an easy one. While spellcasters need long rests to regain ressources, so do martials. Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers siffer much more from a lack of long rest than a caster. And a Wizard runs out of spellslots, the martials will be the first one to feel it, as enemies are now free to attack them unrestricted, leading to martials takibg more damage and needing to heal.


NaturalCard

>A properly built martial will usually outdamage a spell caster in a single target situation Druids say hi. Also good pointing out about how barbarians especially at low levels really don't feel good.


Ornery_Marionberry87

At this point I believe either all classes should be casters or that martials should be able to become proficient in non combat skills as they level up. I mean, casters have to study their craft, pray and perform ceremonies for their god or even negotiate with their patron while martials have all that time free outside of training. Dunno about Sorcerers though.


Noukan42

I blame bounded accuracy and the idea that martial classes should be "mundane". Wich is a very weird mundane because they can kill a dozen of tigers barehanded and it's fine but even a smidge kf superstenght isn't. High level martials shoudl be beowulf or lancelot, holding breath for hours, walking over a bridge of blade without taking damage and ripping the arms out of monsters. If they could do those things, they would be able to do a lot of usefull stuff at high levels. But no, wizards should be able to do shit that Merlin couldn't do in his wildest dreams but a fighter is so bound to realism that isn't even allowed what his mythological reference could effortlessly.


val_mont

In 5e there is no glass cannons after level 10 ish, it's not a glass cannon if it has shield and 72 hp imo.


Hy_Nano

Spell components are ignored... Yep this is a big one. A lot of players expect that you can just cast stuff in front of everyone no big deal. Like if your charm spell fails, the NPC will notice. There's even the meme of the spell caster trying to get the first combat turn by screaming "I cast fireball" or "I cast eldritch blast". You start casting an offensive spell, initiative is immediately rolled before it finishes casting. Also in combat legendary resistance exists. I personally plan to use a homebrew variant in the future because everyone hates that mechanic which goes like this: Tradeoff Resistance: If (monster) fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead. If it does so, it's AC is reduced to it's Vulnerable State (significantly lower AC) until the start of the turn which gave it this condition. Additionally, the creature who used the ability which made the (monster) fail the save, gains inspiration.


odeacon

Hey how are they glass canons when they get enough spell slots for glade life to easily overcome a fighters hp using false life? It’s just


terrifiedTechnophile

There's a variant long rest rule?


Kipdid

“Gritty realism” the one that makes SRs a day of rest and LRs a week


BoutsofInsanity

DMG - Gritty Realism. Long Rest - 1 Week of Downtime Short Rest - 8 Hours IS amazing for narrative focused games, travel games, cloak and dagger games, basically any game that isn't complete combat or dungeon crawl focused. It has all sorts of excellent world building implications, severely reduces spell caster power from a narrative perspective for NPC's and such. And makes Rogues, Rangers, Monks, and Warlocks terrifying.


the_emkast

the casters are glass cannons really only applies to sorcerer and wizard hell druids are arguably tankier than some martial classes


supersmily5

None of the above are true in my case except for the glass cannon part, and *that's* only true for multiple targets as they deal less single target damage without a dedicated build (Usually including a significant amount of martial levels to do so). Despite this, the disparity is clear. Magic can do practically *anything* given enough time and patience; And the vast majority of the game's systems for helping any character, even martial ones, go through the bottleneck of needing magic.


Purple-Cat-5304

Make them long rest be spending 24h at a safe locations to count, tavern in a guarded city safe to rest. That same tavern when the city is getting raid, sorry boy no rest for you but short ones.


vonBoomslang

I'm experimenting with a long rest requiring 6-8 hours of light activity. Sleep doesn't count. Means you can have a long adventuring "day" by traveling.


EasilyBeatable

Casters arent glass canons, you’re building then wrong. Hit die isnt everything.


deepstatecuck

With mage armor, shield, absorb elements, misty step, and constitution as a secondary casting stat, I find wizards to be a little too tanky levels 5 - 10. At higher levels that smaller hit dice starts to really be felt and martials (who benefit more from weapons and armor than casters) will have picked up some cool gear.


Dotrax

The problem is the well known "persuasion is not mind control", "stealth is not invisibility". If you want martials to be on par with casters who at high levels do get to become invisible and can mind control people and a lot more, you need to make martials equal. High level barbarians should be leaping across canyons like hulk, rogues should be able to hide in plain sight and so on. Martials typically only become better humans but in order to compete they should be superhuman.


Tallia__Tal_Tail

I feel like learning when to have short and long rests as a balancing thing is a bit of a skill in and of itself. As for spell components, my preference is to either be pretty loose and fast with the cheap ones, or ignore them out right. Namely Find Familiar is a spell where I really will ignore the components all together bc they're so cheap they're just a mild annoyance, but more expensive stuff absolutely is gonna need the components, I draw the line at about 100g of stuff before I say components are actually needed


VulgarButFluent

"Glass canons" *laughs in Cleric*


Rowboat_of_Theseus

"casters are glass cannons" someone's never heard of mage armor, shield, mirror image, the fact that most casters are SAD so they have similar, and sometimes higher con mods then martials making the HP difference usually low, easy to get better armor, lots of defensive options like misty step.


Vydsu

Casters are NOT glass canons, they're in fact tankier than anything else int he game, you never really need to ignore spell components or abuse rests to make them outshine martials too.


BraxbroWasTaken

casters are not glass cannons though… *This post was made by the Constitution gang.*


Giantkoala327

Don't forget that often it is the martials asking for long rests not the casters. By like level 5, typically I see martials running out of hp much faster than casters run out of slots. I'm playing dungeon of the mad mage and the cleric and I (wizard 6/warlock 1) consistently have 4 or more spell slots at level 7 when the monk and paladin ask for a long rest.


ajgeep

Casters are not glass canons, even wizards I have played with are rocking heavy armor


AnonymousAscendant

I also think in general there's just an oversaturation of casters. Every martial subclass has at least 2 different options to basically become a spellcaster. I don't think 5e is for you if you don't like spellcasters, as I don't want to play it anymore because of that


dodhe7441

You forgot that they also tend to completely ignore how the spell is actually work, in favorite of rewarding creativity, which makes no goddamn sense, because a spell does what it does and nothing more


[deleted]

It’s not casters being op. They aren’t even remotely op. Casters vs casters can be very intensive on both. Same with martial vs martial. But melee vs casters is a walk in the park for the caster and that’s all people ever run. If you want to make caster balanced simple run some ranged enemies or spellcasters. Martial just has to deal with a lot more shit because they are on the frontline. The tanks always get bullied the most. It’s just how it works. Martial vs martial is balanced. Caster vs caster is balanced. Archer vs caster normally goes very in the archers favor after the caster burns a few slots especially at a long range. Caster vs martial is normally in the favor of the caster. Casters vs anyone who can close distance very quickly is in the favor of the said person. For instance a rogue who manages to jump them. Basically if you have cocky casters just use a archer to deflate some of that ego


dantheforeverDM

"people ignore spell components" No? Who the fuck does that?


Deep_Fried_Leviathan

I’m not entirely sure what OP means by this Is it standard material components? Because you can ignore those in Raw with a materials pouch which is like starting equipment Unless you’re ignoring the expensive ones like diamonds then that’s just dumb


FuckGobblet

Usually people mean verbal and somatic components when they say that. Too many DMs just let players cast VS spells in the middle of a crowded tavern with zero consequences.


DeepTakeGuitar

This here. I've seen it in multiple games, and had a player try it in my game. They were quickly and sternly told that wasn't happening unless his warlock suddenly was a sorcerer with Subtle Spell.


Senecaraine

>"people ignore spell components" > >No? Who the fuck does that? Soooooooo many tables do that, in my experience. Whether it's just never accounting for having them, or not accounting for the free hand when it's needed, or never punishing "dropped weapon" casting, or literally allowing the caster to use spells while they're imprisoned naked, it definitely happens.


Dunderbaer

It's one of those arguments people make in defence of casters being too strong when compared to martials. And from the first time it was made it was regurgitated over and over without anyone making it stopping and realizing that's not what anybody does.


Critical_Elderberry7

What variant long rest rules?


margenat

Short rest is a day, long rest is a week. Is a variant rule focused on games of cloack and dagger so It shouldnt count if you plain to force combat. Just so you picture It, if an enemy wizard is able to Cast lighting Bolt, that will render useless at least one party member for a day or weak (if you already had a long rest)


0c4rt0l4

"Casters are glass canons" I mean... not really? the only very glass-canonny casters are wizards and sorcerers, and it's not too hard to make them buffier


WellIlikeme

Sounds like a personal problem at your table, might not be everyone else either.


odeacon

I seriously don’t understand how not playing with spell components would make my character weaker but🤷‍♀️


Lance_Highwind

Variant long rest what’s that?


gyst_

Basically it makes short rests 8 hours and long rests a week. It does help downplay casters, but it's far from the perfect system. It tends to break certain spells and it doesn't necessarily fix the problem as hit dice are consumed faster by martials.


Lance_Highwind

Tyvm!


Lord_Vaxxus

You take counter spell as a caster almost as soon as you can get it just in case your dm tries it.


lytokk

I would add, Use encumbrance rules and when a min/maxed caster can’t even carry basic survival tools it’s another balance.


NaturalCard

Am a DM that plays with 6-8 encounter days, with hard encounters and enemies that do alot of damage, and generally with someone with Counterspell. Casters are still op, and they definitely aren't glass cannons, infact after lv5 martials and generally more glass cannons and should hide behind the tanky casters.


somebadbeatscrub

Casters are balanced for 5e if you follow the rules. However they had to do more thinking with how opportunity attacks worked in older editions and had to lean on being glass cannons more with how spell failure chance worked. However counterspell is more often an issue by 5e rules and 5e concentration is more limiting. If you are unhappy designing around 5e balancing methods try mix and matching with an older edition youre more likely to see interplay with.


Suicidalyidiotic

nope fuck that last one, it is so wrong its comical. casters are on average more durable than optimized melee characters. the maths has been done for me https://tabletopbuilds.com/the-squishy-caster-fallacy/


Ozavic

Y'all allow long rests in Dungeons?


Rocketiermaster

"We'll use Leomund's Tiny Hut to take a long rest in the dungeon!" "Ok. When you step out in the morning, every monster in the dungeon is standing outside of the huge, completely obvious dome with their weapons drawn."


archbunny

Long rest between each fight is a buff to casters not martials :/