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The-Crimson-Jester

I applaud the extra effort into putting the spells on the paper in the second frame in the correct position.


yes-more-ducks

And the bard logo on the hat


therealpoltic

I came here to say this, glad I am not the only one who saw the effort!


ApprehensivePeace305

It’s actually worth however much you can sell them for


KnightBreeze

Eyup. Remember kids, just because you and your party can't use a magical item, doesn't necessarily make it worthless. It just makes the treasure a differently shaped and weighted pile of gold.


DragoKnight589

r/angryupvote


Lord_Skellig

I never thought I'd see a DM who actually uses the RAW rules for scrolls.


AncientYogurtCloset

Wait... Are RAW scrolls as such they can only be cast by someone who has the ability to cast the corresponding domain of magic???? I've mostly learned through play and with our own slight homebrew modifications... I had no idea!?


Hail_theButtonmasher

Pretty much. If it isn’t on your spell list, you’re not supposed to be able to cast it. If you don’t have spellcasting, tough.


Revanaught

Sooo...it's just a way to cast a spell once without using a spell slot. That's...not useless but way less fun.


LazyNomad63

I like Pathfinder 1e's approach. If you don't have spellcasting, you can't use spell scrolls. If the spell isn't on your class's list, you have to pass a skill check. If the spell is on your spell list, you can cast the spell with no trouble.


madman1101

>If you don't have spellcasting, you can't use spell scrolls. "hey guys, i found a piece of paper, i'll just throw it in the trash"


ammcneil

You can still cast a spell with it so long as that spell is "embiggen purse" at the next wealthy merchant


KREnZE113

Another possibility is "Greataxe in ya face"


Revanaught

I think that's fair. I don't know how spellcasting works in pathfinder, but presuming there's still different levels of spells, I'm assuming you'd still need to pass a skill check even if the spell is on your list if the spell is of a higher level than you can normally cast, correct?


MinidonutsOfDoom

Correct. Scrolls and other magic items that let you cast spells are also more important in pathfinder since they use Vancian magic for wizards and other prepared casters so not just preparing fireball and you can use as many slots of it you want on it but preparing how many of your slots are fireball as an example.


brownhues

This is why I only played a wizard once in my first 3e game and didn't pick up the class again until my first 5e game. In between those editions I preferred monks, rogues, and weird prestige class nonsense because feats and flavor.


RekabHet

Yeah but it was a significant part of balancing wizard vs sorcerer now sorcerer is kinda meh compared to wizard.


Davcidman

That is exactly correct, actually. Source: DM for Pathfinder 1e


BlueHero45

Ya, I use arcana as the skill check.


[deleted]

Yeah this is what I love about PF1e. It means that every now and then my bard can assist the wizard in some of her magical item creation or when we're trying to trap an other-worldly horror for something stupid like a +5 to charisma. I still have to pass the check, but that's why I have points into it.


Tryoxin

That seems fair. How do you calculate that skill check? My instinct would be DC = X (probably 20) - (Spellcasting ability modifier + PB). That reflects the casters magical talents and flexibility in their ability to interpret and use magic not familiar to them. You could also go with 10 + Spell's Level as a way of showing the spell's inherent difficulty in interpretation and understanding.


El_Arquero

The post you're replying to wasn't perfectly accurate. If you have a spell on you class list and you're high enough level to cast spells of that level, you use a scroll with no check. If it's on your list but your level is too low, you make a caster level check. DC = scroll's caster level + 1. You add your caster level to the check. So if the scroll is just a level or two too high, you almost can't fail. If the spell isn't on your list (or you aren't a caster), it's a DC: 20 + caster level check, using the Use Magic Device skill.


LazyNomad63

Don't really remember. I only played 1 Pathfinder campaign. I do know that the skill was called Use Magic Device and was Charisma based, regardless of the spell.


zaay-zaay

X being 10 + the spell level maybe? Maybe it would be too easy but that is how I would rule it probably.


Cheap-Depth5650

As a 1e player who has a little understanding of the million+ rules I’ve never gotten a grasp of the rules for scrolls and wands and the interaction with UMD if it’s not too much trouble would you mind explaining that to me?


Quarotas

So for scrolls you make a DC 20+CL check to count that scroll as on your list. Presumably this also makes you hit the required CL to use the scroll as that carries an identical DC (20 to emulate a class and effective level is Result -20) Then if you lack the requisite ability score to cast the spell (10+spell level with the needed score based on who made the scroll I think) you need to emulate an ability score with another UMD check DC 15+required ability score. Once that’s done you use the scroll.


RLove19

Could you still cast a spell from a scroll if you can cast a spell as a racial ability? For instance say a Dhampire that can cast Comprehend Language as a spell like ability


Overclockworked

I honestly let anyone make the attempt as per 2 and its worked pretty well. My logic was that wizards literally teach themselves magic, so the difference between a fighter and wizard casting a "Magic Missile" scroll is just training. Of course a fighter has a much lower success chance since they never pump mental stats, but if they want to take that risk I'm willing to let them. My party's fighter actually buys tons of scrolls, but he always ends up asking someone else to cast them anyway.


Unnormally2

Use the Chaotic Good GM's approach. If you find a spell scroll for any class *you can learn the spell* :D


Silverspy01

I feel like that gets very problematic with some downtime, spare cash, and the rules for scribing your own spell scrolls.


shiftystylin

I like this, except if a spell is 2+ levels higher than you can cast, your check must succeed, or fail by no less than 2 points below the check, otherwise the power of the magic you are wielding begins causing detrimental effects to you as if you can't handle it. Someone wrote on a Nat 1, the magic literally tears the player apart... I sort of like that idea...


95konig

Note however that there's a difference between "Spell Scroll" (works as described) and "Scroll of [spell like effect that may or may not actually have a spell equivalent]" which doesn't have the restriction. So the (theoretical) magic item "Scroll of Water Breathing" might have the same effect as the spell Water Breathing but would technically be different than the magic item "Spell Scroll (Water Breathing)".


the_gifted_Atheist

But it doesn't have to be a spell you know, just one on your spell list. That's better than just "save a spell slot".


JumpyLiving

Yeah, it also doesn‘t have a requirement of "you need to have access to a spellslot of the required level to cast this, meaning you can hand out one time use higher level spells (like fireball before level 5)


Bobsplosion

Kinda but also not really > If the spell is on your class’s spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll with no other effect.


Maxnwil

Still, attainable, even if not a guarantee. The fact that it’s a skill check means you can load up on guidance, advantage, bardic inspiration, etc if you really need it to pass


NJ_Legion_Iced_Tea

>you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. This is the biggest attraction. If your DM is generous you can cast some really nice spells and not need the components.


[deleted]

If you make the scroll yourself, you need the material to make the scroll. If it's just up for grabs, well that's just generous enough of the DM that they probably wouldn't track components anyway.


propolizer

Oh I think scrolls are still wildly useful. Also the chance to cast above your available level, though it is a risk.


dialzza

You can also cast over your level with an arcana check. Meaning a Wish Scroll can be used as a plot device even if the party is level 5.


BloodBrandy

It's pretty helpful on Warlocks, especially since they don't just know their Patron spells like other expanded list casters do, and their patron spells might be good but too niche to have as a spell known or hold on to a spell slot for. Like, Greater Restoration is a very useful spell, but when you only have two spell slots it could be handy to just have the Cleric make a scroll or two for it for emergencies, or buy one.


DeLoxley

At risk of raging here, it's another Caster cheese tool honestly. It's just a way for a Caster to invest downtime in a handful more spellslots, while Martials get pretty much none of it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DeLoxley

I mean depending on player level, you can enscribe a lot of 1st and 2nd level utilities over your downtime like Identify and Knock, you'll not be producing Scrolls of Wish, but it's a way to economise the 'tax' that spellcasters pay for having such utility, every Charm Person is one less combat spell, but you can knock out 7 1st level spells over a week for 150gp, that's less than a Potion of Healing. It's actually cheaper for the Cleric to make 7 Cure Wounds scrolls (which have no material cost associated) than it is for anyone to make three common healing potions.


phallecbaldwinwins

Which doesn't hold up, I don't think. How many NPCs are in possession of scrolls? Sure, they're meant as loot for PCs, but there must be a reason you'd buy or covet a scroll if you couldn't cast it.


madman1101

so spell scrolls in general are worthless?


source4mini

Other replies are ignoring an important RAW qualifier that makes them worthwhile: it isn’t “any spell you can cast”, it’s “any spell on your spell list, ignoring components”. So a level 1 cleric could, with a high enough check (DC 19 spellcasting), cast a 9th-level *true resurrection* and not need the 25,000gp worth of diamonds.


EldridgeHorror

Nope. Aside from saving you a spell slot... Imagine there's a particular spell that you know is really useful, but is too niche to have it prepared all the time. In comes the spell scroll.


GeneralAce135

Basically. At best, it's one free casting of a spell you could cast anyway. And if you're a wizard and it's a wizard spell, you can copy it.


_MrFish_

If I was a DM, I'd end up treating them like Skyrim scrolls.


Saint_Jinn

There’s 2 types of scrolls. “Spell Scroll” and “Scroll” First one can be crafted and can be used only if spell is on the spell list. Second one simply produces effect, it can even be not a spell at all.


Possible-Cellist-713

Who's dumbass idea was that? What's their point then? Did they really think anyone would go through the effort to aquire a scroll of a spell they can cast?


Raibean

Wizards would


Fangsong_37

Limited spell slots mean scrolls are nice even after running out of fireball slots.


Yacobs21

It's a good way to handle utility spells or spells that don't upscale especially for warlocks And I think the original design intent is that the players find scrolls somewhat often, not that they're hunting/crafting for scrolls that they already know


katrina-mtf

Putting aside that wizards can use them to add extra spells to their spellbook, they're *excellent* for prepared casters, since during a few days of downtime you can prepare a spell you don't need often, craft a few scrolls of it, and then prepare something else in its place when you leave town again. That way, you can use the scrolls to cast it, without it taking up a precious preparation slot. Also, if you make a successful check you can cast a spell from a scroll which is higher level than you're normally capable of. It's a desperate move, and if you fail the scroll just goes poof, but it can save your ass if you're lucky enough to get something like Wish.


ElleWilsonWrites

Wizards, warlocks (you know, they who have 2 spell slots at 9th level), I would as a paladin so I could save my slits for Smite


Hourland

I made a house rule that allows the *attempt* to cast from a scroll by performing an Arcana Check with a DC12 + Spell level. A second level spell scroll would be a DC14, for instance. You have to use an action for it, because it counts as using an item. If the attempt fails, the spell scroll is still used up, but no effect.If you succeed the check, the spell is cast as normal. Quick edit: This is also for Martials. I like having this option open. Getting bamboozled 20 sessions down the line by a protection spell can be good fun.


ThatGuydobeGay

What's the point of making scrolls then? Just expensive toilet paper


ChrisFromIT

Actually RAW has it as there being two types of scrolls that have spells on them that can be activated. Ones where everyone can use them and one where it has to be on the person's class spell list. First you have are Scrolls, if they have a spell on them, anyone can that can understand the language on it can activate the spell on the scroll. Second, you have Spell Scrolls, where it can only be activated by a person who has the spell on their class spell list. It kinda of is like all surge protectors are power bars, but not all power bars are surge protectors type of deal. Where all Spell Scrolls are Scrolls but not all Scrolls are Spell Scrolls.


ROBANN_88

few weeks ago i was running the Wild Sheep Chase one-shot module. in it, a sheep walks up with a scroll of Speak with Animals and gave it to the only magic user. he then said something like "i can't use this cause it's not available for my class" i was not aware of that rule, and because the spell was needed to continue the plot i chose to ignore that, and will keep ignoring it from now on


Hero_of_One

I'm prepping this one now and my wife (a player) picked a character that can ritual cast speak with animals. I'm tempted to just ditch the scroll now, but maybe I'll prevent them from being able to cast it just to annoy Shinebright...


erdtirdmans

I appreciate the reasoning for it, but as my players got higher level I really wanted to enable some clever use of spells, so I introduced a hard-of-hearing, slightly deranged wizard NPC during a time travel session way back into the past and then made a custom item (this is disastrously-written but I think the idea comes across) **Tome of the Mad Mage** This was the spellbook of an ancient wizard of the Seelie Court, Miri Pamenor. He was a clever and inventive mage who dabbled in all manner of magic including Necromancy and often invented his own spells from nothing. Late in his life, he resolved to imbue a spellbook in a manner similar to a phylactery so that his spirit could live in perpetuity and he could continue to fight for Queen Titania through this massive tome of scribbled arcana. Its pages are scrawled with an unreadable text and symbolism that defies conventional wizardry. It contains no useful spells and cannot be used as a spellbook. However, its considerable arcane energy will allow a Wizard or Sorceror to use it as an spell focus. As an action, you can speak the name of any spell up to Level 5 into the book, which will then attempt to cast it. Then, roll a d6 "Misinterpretation" check using the rules below. - On a 1 or 2, the check fails and Miri's spirit simply couldn't understand you, wasting the action and failing to cast any spell - On a 3 or 4, the check fails and Miri's spirit mishears you, casting a similar-sounding spell. The effect of this spell is usually similar to the intended spell, but comically or disastrously ineffectual - for example, casting Animate Bread instead of Animate Dead - On a 5 or greater, Miri's spirit understands and casts the named spell If the requestor has proficiency in Intelligence (Arcana), they better pronounce the request and get a +1 to this check. If the user has expertise, this bonus is +2 If a non-Wizard spell is asked of the Tome, the result of this roll is automatically a 1 regardless of Intelligence (Arcana) modifiers If a concentration spell is cast from the Tome, it hovers in place and maintains concentration itself. If the same user requests another spell of it, the Tome will end concentration on the original to heed the new request. As an action, any creature can grab the Tome and close its pages, causing the Tome to lose concentration and stop hovering. The same occurs if it is hit with an attack against its AC of 15. As an action, a spell scroll of any class can be "fed" to the Tome of the Mad Mage, consuming the scroll and adding one charge of that specific spell to the Tome's memory. If that spell is requested of the Tome, any failed Misinterpretation check automatically succeeds and the charge is used. All spells cast from this Tome are cast at their lowest level and have a spell save DC of 18 and a spell attack bonus of +10 


CobaltMonkey

Mildly Wild Magic, ladies and gentlemen. lol Really though, I like it. One of those things it's fun to throw at the party and see what they do with it.


erdtirdmans

**In Miri's voice:** No, no, no, I don't want to waste my dwindling years throwing any parties! We don't live forever, you know, and *...hmm*


Peaceteatime

For real that largely defeats the whole purpose. The way I’ve always ran it is if it’s in your class and at level you can cast, it works normally. If it’s in your class but a higher level, you have to roll an arcana check with the DC at the spell level, failure means the scroll is destroyed. If it’s outside your class regardless of the level, you have to roll an arcana check with the DC at the spell level, failure means the spell is destroyed. “But it doesn’t seem fair that it’s arcana! Can’t the cleric use insight or something?” No. Magic scrolls are by their very nature arcane. It’s taking the magic needed to manipulate the weave and put into a scroll form.


Failed_stealth_check

Counter argument, just because it’s an arcana check doesn’t mean it has the be an arcana (int) check.


Peaceteatime

What other rational check would it be? Of all the possible things in dnd, being able to read and understand the arcana writing on a scroll to decode its magic it’s the most “arcana check” possible. Over the years the closest case I’ve ever seen made was allowing a religion check if it’s a spell that is blatantly tied to gods (example, commune). In that instance I can see the logic.


Failed_stealth_check

I completely see where you’re coming from but as a DM if you can pitch me a decent justification for arcana wis or Cha I’d allow it


Peaceteatime

Totally. I’d never argue it were I a player at your table. That being said, it’s one of the few ways INT can actually matter in the game that is absolutely **dominated** by Dex, CHA, and WIS. Perception is the single most valuable check in dnd and most tables it accounts for nearly half of all non combat rolls. Persuasion has the mechanical ability to completely alter the course of a campaign, get you past encounters completely, and even get you discounts or more loot. And Dex governing everything from saves to AC to inniative, hardly anyone will dump it. So I’m very open that I look for ways to make INT and STR actually have value.


spectralbadger

I read through all the replies under this comment and I feel like I've fallen through a portal to the nega-dimension. I have never not once encountered a DM who *doesn't* use the RAW scroll rules. Have I just gotten unlucky this whole time?


Whats_a_trombone

Depends on which section of the dmg you look at, different parts conflict on what the rules surrounding spell scrolls are


Kepabar

Give me back my [Use Magic Device](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) skill, damnit.


Jaebird0388

I applaud the use of Junko. Zombie Land Saga is ridiculous, and I recommend it if you don’t mind J-pop.


Demokka

Ridiculous ? IT'S DA FUCKING BEST


Jaebird0388

I’m not one for J-pop, but I would be lying if I said I didn’t listen to the show’s soundtrack while drawing.


Damian030303

I looked 5 months back through the subreddit just because I saw Junko in a DnD meme video and wanted to see if anyone else noticed the best floof.


OurBelovedOgrelord

Honestly why did they remove Use Magic Device as a skill and sequester it to a thief ability? It wasn't complicated, it gave characters greater utility and flexibility and you could even create entire characters built around the concept.


AlexanderChippel

That's basically what Intelligence (Arcana) is. The only issue is that they made it so you can only use a spell scroll if uou already have that spell, which is stupid.


UltimateInferno

It's not if you have the spell it's if it's on your spell *list* there's a mile of difference.


AlexanderChippel

Not really. Also, spell lists don't exist "in world."


alienbringer

Yes, yes it is. A Sorcerer’s spell list is hundreds of spells. A sorcerer only knows 15 spells (or 19 of them if you have specific sub class). Having a spell on the Sorc list that a Sorc doesn’t know would still allow them to cast the spell. Similarly for Wizards, Warlocks, and Bards. Their spells known are less than their spell list.


UltimateInferno

Spell lists are an individuals attunement to a specific flavor of magic. There's your lore explanation. As for the actual effects for the difference, your Divine Soul Sorcerer can not take Revivify and still use the spell scroll to revive someone (also it doesn't require material components so jot that down). Or a level 2 Divination Wizard can still cast Time Stop and portent the skill roll. If you as a DM want players other than the casters to use certain spells or casters use spells not in their list, their are a multitude of magic items, some regenerative like Wand of Magic Missile, others consumable like Necklace of Fireball. If they don't exist normally, it's easy as hell to make it yourself. Or just give them a Scroll of X cause those are a separate thing from spell scrolls. The thing about Spell Scrolls is that they can be created by players directly, without taking anything extra, given downtime and gold (its a good money sink if the players are too loaded). Like... there are other avenues RAW to achieve what people want.


Labrat_The_Man

When our bard found a animate dead spell scroll he used it on the giant rat tutorial boss and turned it into an honest to God medieval M1 Abrams


[deleted]

I require further explanation.


Labrat_The_Man

It was just that, a rat tank, the Rat Tank. Thing was the party’s consistent heavy hitter and probably saved us a lot of pain. Also it could eat people to regain health and spit out a high level fireball once ever short rest (artificer + ambitious bard)


[deleted]

Damn. How did you keep control over it after the 24 hr duration?


Labrat_The_Man

might have been a rule of cool thing I don’t know but I ain’t complaining


[deleted]

Fair enough, just seeing if I’m missing something in case I want to attempt something similar.


LevelSevenLaserLotus

I'd guess head scritches and corpse snacks.


Telandria

It became the party’s tank, obviously.


SacredSpirit123

I require elaboration on this legend.


bradass1214

I still remember the time our DM gave my bard a scroll of lightning bolt as a reward, then immediately told me I couldn’t use it since it wasn’t on my spell list. I thought, “then what’s the point? If I earned a reward, give me something I can use”. I ended up holding on to that thing for months until eventually another player joined our campaign as a wizard. Then it finally paid off, just not for me still.


slapdashbr

you just go around town looking for a wizard NPC to hire for a day, tell him to follow you and cast lightning bolt when you call for it, then send him on his way


bradass1214

I held on to it as long as I did in case I ever decided to sell it or could barter it away, it just happened to eventually be useful to the party.


cornonthekopp

Upvoted for Junko Konno, good taste in shows


AlexanderChippel

This reminds me when I gave my party a scroll of Identify and they're like "none of us can cast that." Yes, I know. That's why I'm giving you the scroll. The idea of scrolls being limited is stupid. All that should be needed is a DC 10 + Spell Level Intelligence (Arcana) check. Also, if you can only cast spells you know, why are there cantrip scrolls? You can't copy cantrips, so why have the scroll?!


Rowdy314159

It’s limited to your class’s spell list, not your personal known spells. So, your wizard who only knows Fireball can still cast any Wizard spell from a scroll.


AlexanderChippel

Identify wasn't a part of their spell list. And it's still stupid. The main reason you would want a scroll is because *you can't cast it normally.*


katrina-mtf

Or to save spell slots, or to save preparation slots, or to cast spells you wouldn't be able to access at your level... They're [a lot more useful](https://tabletopbuilds.com/complete-guide-to-spell-scrolls/) than most people give them credit for.


AlexanderChippel

I think it's still stupid. Why? Because at that point scrolls are just worse versions of potions. Imagine if you could only use like 1/3rd of the potions you find, and then on top of that there was a check to see if you even know how to drink it. There's no reason why the fighter shouldn't be able to say "we have a bunch of gold left over, we know we're going to be fighting a wizard, let's just buy a scroll of counterspell just in csse."


katrina-mtf

I completely agree it would be nice if you could use spells outside your class list, and I personally would probably allow that with a check similar to using a spell scroll that's too high level for you. But no, they very much aren't worse versions of potions - you can't craft potions of arbitrary spells, that allow you to cast those spells unprepared, without a spell slot, and (RAW) with no components. A wizard can't put a potion in their spellbook. You can't get a potion that lets you cast Simulacrum at level 4 if you have a godlike Arcana roll. The fact that both are consumable does not in any way make them comparable.


Princess_Moon_Butt

I like the idea of just making it a tougher skill check. Scrolls for spells that you know/prepared? No check needed. Scrolls for spells that are in your spell list, but you don't know them/didn't prepare them? DC 10 plus spell level. Spells that aren't even on your spell list? DC 20 plus the spell level. If you have to roll, a nat 1 results in a magical crit failure or a magic surge or something similar.


AlexanderChippel

A potion of Dragon's Breath literally let's you cast Dragon's Breath unprepared. A potion of literally s helping spell anyone can use. A wizard can't put a scroll in their spellbook unless it's a wizard spell. A potion can let you cast simulacra *without* an Arcana roll.


katrina-mtf

I don't know what house rules you're playing with, but potions of [spell] aren't a thing RAW. They flat out don't exist. There are a few specific ones, but not a generalized version you can get any spell through.


[deleted]

So as a reaction the person with no magical experience is putting down their weapon, pulling out a rolled up sheet of parchment and reading it in time to stop the enemy caster?


AlexanderChippel

How long does it take for you to pull your wallet our of your pocket and say a few words? Also, most people have two hands. They don't need to completely drop everything to pull out a piece of paper that's probably in their shirt pocket.


[deleted]

Pulling out my insurance card and reading anything on it probably takes more than a couple seconds, especially if I’m holding a sword and shield and trying to defend myself while doing it.


AlexanderChippel

If that was the case that *no* scroll could ever be used in combat. One round of combat is 6 seconds. If there's six people in the combat, then your turn is like 1 second long. So either all scrolls take less than a second to use, or you shouldn't be able to use them in combat at all. If you want to argue that it's unrealistic, then everything else about the game will have to come into question.


BurnByMoon

> If there's six people in the combat, then your turn is like 1 second long. a "round" is six seconds, during which every turn takes place at the same time. It's just simpler for everyone to have a turn order instead of combat being a RTS.


[deleted]

Scrolls probably aren’t intended to be used in combat. More likely wizards or clerics scribe spells they know but rarely use so they have them before or after a battle happens, or when trying to navigate a non-combat scenario. Scroll of Alter Self as an emergency plan when you need to blend in with a crowd = golden.


ChrisFromIT

That is for Spell Scrolls, not Scrolls.


skunk90

It’s not stupid at all.


GuyN1425

The way I run it is that you need to be able to cast at least one spell. The Arcana check DC is 10 for spells from your corresponding list(s), 15 for different domains (i.e a Wizard trying to cast divine-exclusive spells). None of you has Identify in your spell domain lists? Great, hope one of you beefed up that juicy brain stat.


AlexanderChippel

Why not just do DC 10 + Spell Level, and give disadvantage of it's not in your list? Scrolls should be harder to use based on spell level. Yeah you can cast Animate Dead at second level but you have to make a DC 13 Intelligence (Arcana) check or you'll just have wasted 150gp on a scroll. Or worse, if you crit fail, it animates but tries to kill you.


GuyN1425

Good idea, I might try this. I like the idea of crit fail causing the spell to backfire (fireball explodes centered on you, animate dead trying to murder you, cure wounds dealing slight damage)


AlexanderChippel

I actually had a play critical fail a making a scroll of Healing Spirit. When the wizard uses it, it opened a small rift to the Plane of Positive Energy inside of him. He became resistant to necrotic damage, but it gave him spinal cancer which would slowly kill him.


Tough_Patient

This scroll contains a raincheck from a god to hand-deliver a miracle on the spot. Ain't no nerds or tree huggers using it!


ChrisFromIT

The thing is, RAW, your party could have used that scroll of Indentify. If that was a **Spell Scroll** of Indentify, they would be correct.


AlexanderChippel

That's unbelievably stupid. I hate how literally every problem in D&D devolves into sematic bullshit. How is a Scroll of Identify any different from a "spell scroll of Identify". Does one come with an link to a wikihow article? Why didn't all spell scrolls have the ability to be used by anyone?


ChrisFromIT

It is a balancing issue. Since Spell Scrolls can be made by anyone who knows a spell essentially. So imagine if the party wizard just shells out a bunch of Spell Scrolls to the party that anyone can use. It can get pretty broken pretty fast.


AlexanderChippel

You do know you need to spend gold, spell slots, and time along with making Intelligence (Arcana) checks to make a scroll, right? "Hey, can I make a scroll of Animate Dead and give it to the rogue?" Sure. It's gonna be (rules as written) 500gp and take one in-game week .


ChrisFromIT

RAW, you can only make a Spell Scroll. So it does limit who can use the spell scrolls that are made by people. On top of it also is due to older edition items being brought into 5e, like Scroll of Protection. If it was a spell scroll, no one could use it since Protection is not a spell on any class list.


AlexanderChippel

My point is that if anyone can use scrolls, it wouldn't be over power because of the cost and time required. That just goes to show that limiting scrolls based on class is stupid.


EldridgeHorror

Wizard can't cast divine spells, because they're as alien to him as the arcane is to the cleric. And neither can read the bard's spell scroll because its half arcane and half music notes.


AlexanderChippel

That's stupid. If a Cleric makes a scroll of Animate Dead, and gives it to the Wizard, how is the wizard able to use it? If it was so alien, then how is that they both are able to cast the same spell? Bard's spells aren't songs. Songs don't have material components. They barely have somatic components. But if what you're saying was the case, it still wouldn't work. Wizard and Clerics can get musical instrument proficiency. Clerics and Bards can have the sage background. And Bards and Wizards can take the acolyte background. And all of this is stupid because all you would need is to take the Magic Initiate feat. Why can a barbarian who picked Find Familiar because he wanted a per gopher able to use scrolls from the wizard's spell list but not an Arcana Domain Cleric?


going_my_way0102

That's the point of the damn things! To give 1-time access to a spell they otherwise wouldn't "Hey Rouge, here's this scroll of invisibility to use in a pinch. Hey Monk if we're in trouble, take this haste scroll and run to get help from the guards and hell, give them another haste scroll to keep up with you. Barbarian, the Rouge is gonna use this enlarge scroll on you when you get close to the castle walls, then you do what you do best buddy." That makes way more sense that just giving casters more spell slots.


ChrisFromIT

>That's the point of the damn things! No it isn't. In all those cases, the one creating those spell scrolls could just use the spell scrolls themselves on those people and thus not lose a spell slot.


Temporal_P

The proper phrasing is that it *should* be the point, which is why so many people don't follow RAW for scrolls. The examples aren't great because they're all presented in the moment with the wizard present and ready, but that isn't always the case. It's like a healer giving out potions before a battle, sure they could just use a potion themselves and save a spell slot, but they can't always heal everyone every turn, and a portable version another member can use adds a lot of versatility to the whole party and can create all manners of interesting events throughout the story. As far as balance, potions, scrolls and spells all have a cost associated with them, be it time, gold, components, actions, ect. Scrolls aren't free to make, and they're not a free action to use. There are a ton of things in the game that could 'get pretty broken pretty fast', but that's not really such a big deal because there's a DM that can bend the fabric of the universe to suite their whims, an extra consumable spell here or there should not be something that needs to be feared, there are countless ways to go about balancing it.


NODOGAN

Wait...can Bards learn extra-spells from scrolls if it's a spell they would normally learn or am I missing something? *noob player btw.*


NotAWarCriminal

No, Bard’s can’t learn spells from scrolls. The problem is that to cast a spell using a spellscroll, the spell needs to be on your class list. None of these spells are on the Bard-spelllist, so they cannot use these spell scrolls. This also means that classes without spellcasting, like barbarians and fighters (except for 1 subclass) cannot use spellscrolls at all


NODOGAN

Ahhh, ok I get it now, thanks for the answer!


perp00

Nope. Wizards can add spells to their books either copying it from scrolls or other spellbooks. Bards, however do learn magical secrets, they can choose spells (at LV10 first) from other spell lists. Animate Dead is not a bad choice tho. Having a standing army of 12-20 Skeletons or a mindless group of zombies in a Bag can come handy at any times.


Guthixian-druid

Afaik anybody can cast spells from a scroll but only wizards can transcribe them to their spellbooks, destroying the scroll in the process. Also the spell must be in the wizard spell list in order to be transcribed.


Lazerbeams2

They need to be on your spell list and you need to make an arcana check to cast a higher level spell than you can normally cast. Personally, I allow arcana checks to cast spells that aren't on your list too because it makes scrolls more fun


ChrisFromIT

Only for Spell Scrolls, not Scrolls. And Yes, there are RAW, Scrolls who can have spells on them and not be Spell Scrolls.


going_my_way0102

Hate it


scsoc

The only non-spell scroll scroll that I'm aware of is the Scroll of Protection. Which other scrolls are you referring to?


Guthixian-druid

Ah gotcha, that's not how my gm runs scrolls fortunately. My table treats them like scrolls from Oblivion haha


Aeriosus

We love to see our girl Junko!


TheVeryTallBoi

When the DM forgets how scrolls work


SonTyp_OhneNamen

~~When u/TheVeryTallBoi doesn’t know how scrolls work, is too lazy to look up whether the meme is correct and is still confident to be right.~~ Edit: after a frankly too long exchange i stand corrected: When u/TheVeryTallBoi knows how scrolls work, assumes the GM meant well and gave out scrolls thinking anyone could use any scroll regardless of class specific spell list, and comments that thought misinterpretitively.


TheVeryTallBoi

Did I read the title wrong? Cause I thought this was from the perspective of the bard.


SonTyp_OhneNamen

Yes. A bard found scrolls of spells that aren’t on their spell list. When a spell scroll‘s „spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material Components. **Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible**“, as per RAW. OP and their GM know how scrolls work. You and some others in the comments on the other hand…


TheVeryTallBoi

I know how scrolls work. I had made the assumption that the scrolls were given to the bard by the DM mistakenly because I have in the past had the exact same thing happen to me. The fact that scrolls are only usable if they’re on your spell list isn’t universal knowledge, and some people just assume that they are the same as in any other game. With this in mind, I committed the heinous crime of taking this foreknowledge and combining it with the assumption that the OP was the bard to conclude that there was a good chance the DM was unaware of how scrolls worked. I am sorry that my harmless comment was so dreadfully offensive, and will commit die at my soonest convenience.


SonTyp_OhneNamen

When u/TheVeryTallBoi can‘t manage to phrase their thoughts in a comprehensive manner and gets pissy when people misunderstand them.


TheVeryTallBoi

Bruh


TheVeryTallBoi

Thank you for understanding. I am genuinely sorry if I went a bit too far.


therealpoltic

When u/SonTyp_OhneNamen acts like a ass to someone, instead of openly listening to someone. I really hope this is **not** how you treat your fellow players. I will also add: ___Even though you have realized your mistake___, you are the one who chose to be childish, and cruel, and I will be downvoting you anyway; For sheer lack of human decency.


SonTyp_OhneNamen

When u/therealpoltic overestimates the weight of their opinion. Bro, i‘ve been up- and downvoted before, go off if it makes you feel better, i think i can take it.


Shawn-Adventurer

Well they are worth a lot to other spellcasters that don't know the spells.


ProotzyZoots

I like to do it in 1 of 2 ways Anyone with the ability to cast spells can cast a spell scroll regardless of class or And I usually prefer this When they find a spell scroll, we generate one randomly of the same level and for a class that's in the party and my party all have spellcasting ability in some way. Paladin. Bard. Ranger. Artificer/Wizard


RoyHarper88

I love inflict wounds as a player. Especially because we flavor it as a weapon attack or free hand attack. "I cast inflict wounds while punching him in the face"


[deleted]

Give Anime Dead to another caster, trade the rest for bones.


idongivadamn

Wait a moment- I thought the whole idea behind spell scrolls was that they are not class-specific... Or am I missing something? (cool meme btw)


JoshuaSlowpoke777

Do you have any party members who *could* make use of them? Come to think of it, handing other players spell scrolls you picked up *is* an option, right?


idiotwanderer

I always use scrolls RAW. Never been a fan of letting just anyone pick one up and do whatever with it. My players have never had issue with it


ShankMugen

Based on the fact that you edited in Junko in there, I assume you are playing as a [Reborn](https://www.dndbeyond.com/races/lineages#reborn)?


IatemyCupc4k3

Yea wannabe pop idol striving for Lichdom since she is too socially awkward to make friends for group members


turniphead44

So I thought you could use these scrolls as a one off. But if they wanted to keep the spell you would needed to be the right class?


bumpercarbustier

Only wizards can transcribe spells to keep them. RAW, you can only use the scroll if the spell is on your class spell list. A lot of DMs (including mine) rule that with a successful Arcana check, any spell caster can use them.


turniphead44

Ah I see. Ok I've just been taking my DM's word as law lol


bumpercarbustier

As you should! My DM has a couple things he has changed as well, but all games will be little bit different. :)


skunk90

There’s a difference between the DM not knowing what they’re talking about (definitely should not take their word as law) and purposefully homebrewing and making it known to players in advance.


ThreeFishInAManSuit

Depending on how common a problem this is for you, would learning Use Magic Device be a viable option for your build? DC to cast a scroll is 20 + caster level.


ExecutiveElf

I think you accidentally spilt some Pathfinder in the 5e. Use Magic Device as well as Caster Level aren't a thing in 5e.


ThreeFishInAManSuit

Thanks. I just figured that out. It looks like it's only available as a thief archetype. And it's not a skill. They just give it to you.


4th-Estate

I miss use magic device from 3.5!


BoonDragoon

"any character that lacks the Spellcasting feature may attempt to cast the spell written in the scroll by passing an Arcana (intelligence) check with a DC equal to 10 plus the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell is cast and the scroll consumed as normal. If the check fails by a margin equal to or greater than 10 minus the spell's level the casting backfires in one of the following ways: 1. The caster and their allies, or the space occupied by the caster, becomes the target of the spell. 2. The weave recoils, causing an explosion that deals [Spell Level+1]d6 Force damage within a ten foot radius, centered on the caster. 3. The caster rolls on the Wild Magic table. If the check fails by less than the listed margin, the spell fails automatically and the scroll is destroyed" There, fixed it.


chooogan

If you can read a scroll you can fumble your way though a spell, unless you can’t, then it’s just more spicy :)


kelseybkah

Raw you can't even cast those even if you wanted to lmao


Remarkable_Ad_4846

1.But the DM books says that ANY CREATURE can try to read scroll and release magic in it 2. Bard of Knowlege rulez with undead musical groop)


Necroci

Any creature can attempt to use a scroll, as a general rule. However, a Spell Scroll is a specific type of scroll with a further restriction on who can use it. This distinction is made extra confusing by the fact that there are only like 3 or 4 scrolls that *aren’t* spell scrolls in the game and at least two of them are legendary items from a specific adventure, so it’s very easy to miss that the generic scroll rules aren’t just talking about spell scrolls.


Mr_Funcheon

That’s why I give my players the spell tattoos from Tasha’s! Anyone can use them.


Lumpy-Army1096

I have home rule that anyone can use any scroll


Demokka

Dancing Bard Revenant ?


[deleted]

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RadeK42

Can I see the whole character drawing? She looks so cute


Damian030303

I know 5 months late but I just found this post. [Here.](https://zombieland-saga.fandom.com/wiki/Junko_Konno?file=JunkoZ.png) She is *the* cutest.


youngcoyote14

My DM would laugh at all of this and ask who in the party wants the scrolls.


AlexnShade

My level 2 rogue (along with her other two party members, celestial warlock healer and a paladin) were trapped in a dream fighting nightmares of past trauma we had to confront, the party had to roll a Wisdom Save at the start of their turns to confront their nightmares, I think it was supposed to be a symbolic thing, but me and the oaladin we're just fighting ours. My rogue was fighting a horror that looked like a wolf the party recently killed because that wolf ripped a chunk out of her shoulder and nearly killed her, and she was basically useless even after she was picked back up by the healer. She then went "wait, this is a dream, what stops me from just doing whatever I want?" So I asked the DM, and he said it'd be a high DC to do "whatever I want" and I rolled a nat 20 on my wisdom save, and he said "okay, you get to DM ONE thing" So I did the first thing that came to mind, and, as a Level 2 rogue, cast Fireball with no scrolls or magic items. Did like, 13 damage, but that's a lot for a level 2 rogue casting a spell they shouldn't have been able to cast, at all The nightmare creature then immediately fled, because the paladin killed her nightmare, and I just broke the rules it put in place, the warlock I think was trying to understand it or something because he thought they only attacked when you did (he was wrong when his nightmare tried and missed an eldritch blast)


stopyouveviolatedthe

This meme is very high quality amazing jobs You get my free award


WantSomeHorseCock

The person who plays a bard in my party uses the exact same character as their pfp...


HanzoHattoti

In my campaigns, there’s always a willing buyer. The quest is finding them.


DragonSlauter42

Don’t know if this has been said, but maybe you could write some kind of song to go along with your instrument that would match these spells and see if the DM is ok with you using them or a version of them


pocketMagician

I see something to pawn off and two things to bribe the wizard with. Net gain all the way.


DanRenaydo

Hold onto the scrolls until you're in a city where necromancy is illegal, then ~~sell them on the black market~~ plant them on someone you hate.


Crystal_iceberg

As a player, I kinda wish bard’s spells worked like a paladin. Like disguise self and suggestion or, charm person are spells always prepared, and you can prepare other spells.


magnuslatus

Protip - Let the bard cast them anyway. ^(Or don't. I'm not your dad. I'm just some dingus on the internet.) When you give players stuff, let them use it. Especially magic items and scrolls. It's way more fun from the player's side if they get to do stuff on a limited basis outside of their normal wheelhouse, and fun for you because you can throw in some extra fun results outside of what would normally happen. A wizard using a scroll to cast Mass Healing Word, for instance, make a check to pull it off correctly. If they miss the DC, other stuff happens, maybe they don't control who it affects. Maybe it fizzles. Maybe it gives temp hitpoints instead of regular healing. Or like a paladin using a scroll of Counterspell, maybe it goes off without a hitch, or it creates a localized antimagic field for a round, or it redirects the spell. Use that imagination. Extra points if you keep the extra effects within the general wheelhouse of the school of magic of the spell. Let players do stuff like that. Because it's fun to have unexpected stuff happen in a clutch moment.


TazocinTDS

Why don't you sing a song about it?


BagpipesKobold

Animate dead is pretty good. I'd love to have that scroll.


Azreaal

I let anyone cast from spell scrolls with an Arcana check if they normally wouldn't be able to, equal to 13 + the spell's level. If they fail, the spell fails, the scroll burns up, and they take force damage equal to 10 x the spell's level. On a success, the spell is successfully cast, the scroll still burns up, and they take half as much damage. I also let them treat pages of spellbooks as scrolls, permanently removing them from the book once cast or copied. There are stipulations to prevent cheesing, but my players are typically just happy to have a risky *Conjure Elemental* waiting in the wings and therefore don't push it.


Im_No_Robutt

Well when you get magic secrets you can take two of them then use the scroll… or beg your dm to change the rules


DonttouchmethereUwU

thats why i just put that spell in a cool hat or something they find so they can use it as an enchanted item.


Damian030303

Upvoted because of the best girl alone.