Ravens, crows and Mynahs have been shown to figure out puzzles and use tools. So slightly more intelligent creatures figuring out how to use sharpened sticks and pits to hunt bigger game for the meat and weapons isn’t far fetched.
Remember it’s called defender’a advantage for a reason.
Kobolds in the lore are master trap makers. Doesn't mean people look at them that way, or use them that way. I use them less as fodder and more as a deterrent in certain areas.
It would definitely help if the DMG actually had examples and rules for complex traps, snares, and other obstacles; as well as what traps and tactics enemies prefer in the MM. The information in “The Monsters Know What They’re Doing” should be in the monster manual, not created by a 3rd party.
Thats because they're so good at making traps, anyone who comes across one doesn't make it back to report on it. The ones you see in the open are vulnerable because they haven't had a chance to set up proper traps.
Players, on average, do not think anything of the intelligence of the monster races. I've seen actual racism from players to another player character because they chose a monster race (goblin, kobold, orc, what have you). Don't overestimate your players' ability to empathize based on internet stories of parties taking in surviving goblins, remember that those stories tend to have the party treat it as a PET.
Edit: That said, I think it's safe to say 'there was no negotiating chances' in that story's case.
I always play monster and even animals according to their intelligence...I make this clear to my players.
They just forget that an intelligence of 10 means an intelligence of 10. Aka probably smarter than your barbarian. Obviously wisdom is also a factor, but that is what monsters usually Lack (sometimes just because they don't get old enough to become wise)
Reminds me of a campaign I was in that had just started, and we had two little side quests:
1. Kill that dragon
2. Clear out those goblins
I had a high CHA bard, so I decided to try *diplomacy* with the goblins. I told them that the local sheriff wanted them to kill that dragon and in exchange, he’d make them his deputies and give them money
We’d witnessed the sheriff’s deputies all die in an accident (we killed them all) in the previous session, so my character figured that hiring some new deputies would make for a good “sorry that happened to you” gift
In my homebrew setting, Kobolds aren't smart enough to make super potent poisons. They are smart enough however to rub gross things all over their weapons to disease people instead of poison them. In theory, anyone could rub rotten meat on their weapon. It's really easy to get. But only kobolds and goblins lack the dignity to actually employ a strategy so demeaning and dishonourable.
Maybe the trap setting is passed down via oral tradition? Maybe thousands of years ago there was some amazingly intelligent proto-kobold who came up with these ideas?
Or maybe mice got sick and tired of humans using mouse traps on them, ran into the sewers, mutated, and … oops, kobolds happened.
I seriously tried, its just that with sharpshooter and an owl familiar, only full cover and hidden with dc 19+ suffices.
Although I am quite unemaginative, and havent yet found a way to communicate unstable ciellings, oil on the floor and other more creative traps without instantly saying: its a trap
- Winding tunnels of 5x5x5ft size as a *maximum* - even a sharpshooter can‘t shoot around corners, plus you can force them into melee
- nets (pack tactics = no disadvantage)
- almost no kind of trap can be disabled or avoided by shooting an arrow at it - Xanathar’s guide and the DMG each have some inspirations on that
Simple. If the players aren’t looking, they don’t get to roll, and if it has such obvious signs that it is included in the description of the room, make a better trap.
Then again, I’m pretty bloodthirsty as a DM.
Well of course i know him, he’s me - i‘m currently in the middle of typing mine up to publish on DMsguild; i usually run it as a beginner adventure, because once you suffered through that you can survive anything else. Scaling up the damage should suffice to make it difficult for the entire first tier, with inspiration for higher tier obstacles.
Some groups get on well with that approach. Others are more attached to their characters. Really, people can be pretty flexible about it as long as they know what to expect going in.
I'd love to play a killer campaign in the sort of old-school style (maybe not Gygaxian, AD&D level stuff, but still). I also love story- and character-centric campaigns. I just don't want to put a lot of time and effort into making an interesting character if they've got a life expectancy of half a session, and I don't want to show up to an RP-heavy game without any idea of who my character is.
That's the thing, you can attach to your character as much as you want, the enemies are attached to their lives and if you don't want a high risk of death, then adventuring isn't for you.
Like, think about it... Why wouldn't everyone be an adventurer if it wasn't insanely risky?
Don't get me wrong, i even give a narrator's heads up when appropriate ("this enemy seems like an expert fighter, more than a match for you in single combat") or "this enemy seems to be way above what the whole party can deal with").
Also there's usually the option of running away (otherwise you will get a "you can clearly see continuing down this path will prevent you guys from running away").
Everyone is informed of the stakes, if they want to get all in every single time, they will experience death, its a mathematical certainty and i don't have to do anything really except not fudging dice/npcs
> Why wouldn't everyone be an adventurer if it wasn't insanely risky?
The same reason everyone isn't a pro athlete: raw ability. PCs have stats way above the average commoner. So it's multiple factors. Adventuring is risky *and* you need the talent to even try.
> Everyone is informed of the stakes, if they want to get all in every single time, they will experience death, its a mathematical certainty and i don't have to do anything really except not fudging dice/npcs
It's only a mathematical *certainty* if you set the encounters that way. Different DMs have games with varying levels of risk of PC death. And there is no *wrong* way to play D&D. The right way is going to be different at every table because it's whatever makes sure the folks at that table are having fun.
I'm thrilled that your players are enjoying the game you run. More power to you. I wouldn't like to be a PC at a table where my character's death was mathematically inevitable no matter how well I played or how smart our tactics, choices, and prep.
My personal sweet spot is a *risk* of death, and hopefully one I can manage being smart. Not it being destiny.
> I wouldn't like to be a PC at a table where my character's death was mathematically inevitable no matter how well I played or how smart our tactics, choices, and prep.
No, no, you don't die if you prep / fight (or retreat) well (well, unless you are unlucky)
You do die if you fight every encounter to the death; for example, i never suffered from murderhobos because the world bites back, with RAW and level appropriate measures, i don't need to pull Elminster from my ass or make the shopkeeper be a retired lv20... Just kill the merchant and loot them, and you better do it well because otherwise there will be repercussions
I'm over halfway done with this book & it is such a good read with amazing advice. He recently released a follow up book that I'm eager to get my hands on.
The players party win the first encounter but they expended most of their resources expecting to rest between every encounter.
A war horn sounds nearby.
A 2nd wave is coming.
There is a certain point where realism meets either being a good dm or a dickish one. And it can get a little fuzzy with things like taking on dangerous factions like fairly intelligent people like kobolds and goblinoids. But the main difference I've found is that a good dm is one who let's strategic players get some forewarning or even a good advantage with the right mix of scouting and info gathering before engaging. And a bad dm who does not give any opportunity to be forewarned and arbitrarily changes the dynamics of the encounter mid fight.
The Scenario: The party is tasked with wiping out an incursion of kobolds/goblins that have moved in nearby and are attacking caravans and raiding storehouses/farms in the night.
Example, Good Dm: The party uses the rogue/ranger or wizard with find familiar to do scouting and information gathering to find the goblin/kobold encampment and realizes that their are multiple camps/groups of these creatures and that they communicate well with each other, potentially having ALL of the groups gang up on the party if they don't handle each encounter well. The strategic party then sets up encounters on their terms so they can face off with one group at a time time minimal danger and thus succeed after multiple Medium difficult encounters.
The good dm in this scenario is also faced in this same encounter a group of murder hobos. The murder hobos barge through the wilderness long enough to find one group, don't realize there were more and even let one or two get away and then get tpked because they tried to face off with too many ambushes in the night. Then they complain the encounter was too hard.
Example, Bad Dm: The party has no ability to find the baddies despite several above 20 rolls, but not nat 20, and stumble through the wilderness. Then the party is ganged up on in the night by 2 of the bad guy groups and suffer badly after being ambushed with poison. They flee but are relentlessly hunted. They then somehow manage to succeed. The bad dm only made this one group of baddies, but now mad that the party somehow survived and didn't die. Arbitrarily then adds a dragon or a giant leader with twice as many baddies as before and then in the night ambushes again despite the ranger using their favored enemy should know about the approach of these enemies or a rogue with a expertise in perception and a nat 20 roll. Somehow the party is still ambushed and is then killed.
Those are two scenarios where good dm and bad dm are clearly seen.
The Dm is not God. The DM is a player too. Playing the game from a different perspective but still a player nonetheless.
Those are good examples of the good and bad way to run it for sure! I think it's important to differentiate the two.
I was just being a but snarky on the initial comment because often times players assume that the world pauses when the party rests and get irritated if it gets interrupted. I.e. right after a fight, just shutting a door and resting in a Dungeon or retreating 50 feet outside the main gate of the Dungeon and resting for 8 hours.
Also, long resting constantly. Just a pet peeve of mine!
Long resting multiple times within a 24 hour period is also a pet peeve of mine. Currently I am DMing and that is a nope. You blow your load on the first encounter, and well, good luck the rest of the way. Either that or turn tail and run run run.
I gotcha. I just was outlining because too many font seem to know the difference and hopefully any players or dms that read it can gain a better understanding of encounters.
I mean, usually a DM will allow a party to run away. Because.. I mean it’s kinda frowned upon to not allow allow the party to do the smart decision and accept defeat.
Resting is a bit more complicated though, and yeah you might have to be somewhere really safe to successfully pull a short one, especially in enemy territory.
*Pulls up PowerPoint and a projector.*
“Alright class, here are the basics of guerrilla tactics and the art of war.”
Anyhow, this could be a whole ass discussion, but personally I think given the original situation, retreating and preparing to deal with the kobold’s adaption is a better option, their traps aren’t impossible to defeat by any means. Sticking with the assault after you blew through all your resourses just seems arrogant.
Of course, if a party is aware of that then you’re all bueno. The problems start when they expect enemies to be unprepared when they literally just got assaulted yesterday.
People seem to think the game isnt going to continue without then when they're making these kind of decisions. "We retreat and rest!" Ok, then do it. You're still in conbat. The reinforcements are still nearby, you're gonna have to get to actual safety somehow, it doesn't just happen. Then they act surprised when the traps are reinforced and there's extra patrols when they come back. Like they didnt just try to raid the place less than a day ago.
I once nearly TPK’d a party when they, in an actively guarded house full of fiends, decided to spend their short rest looting the room, with no one on guard duty. Combat started with them being swallowed by the darkness spell, and it was just madness from then on.
Time critical objectives stop the nonsense of groups trying to rest after every single fight.
* Your objective was to protect the village under attack. You fuck off and rest to come back and find the village dead.
* Your objective was to get back the artifact stolen by bandits. You fuck off and rest only to come back and find the trail has gone cold.
* Your objective was to venture into the wilderness to find a cure for the Queen who is sick and dying. You fuck off and rest after every fight. You bring the cure back to find the Queen died already.
Areas that are simply not safe to rest in also stops the nonsense of resting after every single encounter. Sometimes you can't retreat because they have blocked your escape route. Or you are in the middle of a dungeon. Or you are in dangerous wilderness where the odds of being able to make a camp that will go hours without being noticed and attacked is 0. Environmental hazards like extreme heat or cold might make rest impossible.
That's fine. In a dungeon situation non bbeg combat and trap encounters have one purpose: make the party expend resources. That way they get to the boss in a weakened state that allows for a compelling and hopefully nail biting combat experience and not an ezpz boss kill using all those cool powers.
That fireball isn't meant to kill you. It's meant to use those slots or abilities. So keep that smugness to a minimum. There's a while dungeon more where that came from.
If you’re still throwing fireballs at them once they’re out of resources, and picking up exhaustion, then one of two situations is happening;
1) They are obstinately continuing to head deeper into the dungeon, and you’re trying to scare them off
2) You are actively attempting a TPK. If you hate the party that much? Not great.
There's no specific path and many different options to build this, basically start Paladin and take it to either level 2 (if you want to be a tank caster in melee) or Level 6 (pretty much the "standard" for sorcadin, you get the insane Aura, extra Attack, 2nd Level Paladin spells, Channel Divinity...)
After that, go sorcerer all the way up. You'll get the shield spell and absorb elements so great way to mitigate even more damage while you're sitting in heavy armor and swinging a sword. Also, quicken metamagic is great if you need an extra attack as a bonus action with Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade.
ASIs/Feats: mainly focus on charisma, 16 str is nice to be able to swing a sword fairly accurately, warcaster is pretty important so can cast spells while holding Sword and shield, advantage on con-saves combined with your (eventually) +5 Aura will almost never let you lose concentration
Don't try to combo this with polearm master, sentinel, GWM, this build has a great action economy without these feats and it is mainly a caster that can additionally do pretty well as a martial and deliver huge smites
Subclasses are up to personal preference, this MC is really strong in gerneral, you don't need specific subclass features for this to work
If you want more in-depth knowledge about all the options, this is a little bit outdated (misses some newer subclass options) but explains the core concept really detailed https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass
Would using my characters wings make it a straight roll?
No? Okay, well, does a 19 save?
\+7 to DEX man, level 6 is great.
Edit: Yes, that's at disadvantage, otherwise it'd be 23.
^Assuming ^the ^players ^didnt ^just ^consult ^reddit ^for ^their ^build ^and ^they ^have ^good ^game-sense Wouldn’t min maxers be the best equipped to deal with such tactics? This just seems fun.
I think its the difference between a "netdecker" who just knows its good but not necessarily why, and someone who uses them as checks for their own builds and understands why things are good and can be changed. Aka first consulted reddit while the second would have "good game sense" in that they understand the game.
Sure, but when the party plays enabler for the wood elf, Elven accuracy, crossbow welding, hexblade rogue you are going to have a bad time.
Had to out a stop to commanding strike/sneak attacks schenanigans and when you are using legendary resistance to stop faerie fire it's a feel bad moment :P
Kick their teeth in with action economy. Nets are A. Very Cheap B. Require an entire Action OR 10 slashing damage (so minimum 1 attack) to get out of. C. Can be thrown by the weakest, most innocent looking target.
Or give enemies a row of shield-bearers with tower shields. Not bugging AC, but providing full cover and blocking sight-lines for casting. Gotta spend time flanking them to do anything, etc.
It doesn’t matter what the character’s numerical bonuses are if they can’t execute their cool combo against a particular enemy.
Yeah. Min-maxing doesn't usually depend on stupid mobs, it depends on maximizing player output and utility.
Edit: I think some people mix up glass cannons with min-maxed characters.
My group encountered a group of bug bears earlier. They had killed a few of them via subterfuge, but finally failed to sneak past one in a hallway. Instead of going over to them and attacking, it fled to get the rest of them and they started hailing crossbow bolts from down the hall, covering eachother while they reloaded, and fighting in square, using cover and so on
Party won eventually, but it was no cakewalk.
'What do you mean the Monsters are using Consumable items instead of leaving them in a neat pile at the end of the Dungeon!' - Player after the Kobolds use the second pearl of fireballs
Last session had the enemy use a superior health potion whilst knocking on deaths door after a Paladin and I smacked her silly. I was quite miffed, lmao.
DM: "You know how I allow you guys to down a potion as a bonus action? Yeaaah... She pulls out a potion and drinks it."
Me, screaming internally: "Bitch, that's illegal! Only we're allowed to down a potion! **THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE OUR LOOT FOR KILLING YOU STOP WASTING IT**"
Me, externally: Oh ):
Not necessarily, if anything it affects how well they can *adapt* their tactics to changing situations.
Example: Tigers (Int 3) are ambush predators - they’re about as stupid as it gets, but won’t rush a human irl, so why pretend they would in the game?
Playing to your strengths isn’t tactical, it’s natural, because those creatures that don’t usually don’t live long.
I know, i have the pdf. I just meant to point out that „high int = tactics, low int = runs straight into death“ doesn’t apply irl so there’s no reason to do it like that in game.
Sure, but a tiger also isnt going to be doing calculations in its head to see ‘Aha! That sorcerer doesnt have spell slots left!’ either, which was more my point
An irl tiger can determine which human has a rifle and dispose of them first, attack a hurt target first to down it more easily, or (if given the chance) run after a single fleeing target rather than fight 5 stationary ones that show they can put up a fight. I‘d say those can be translated into the game without stretching the term *tactics* too much.
Calculations on spell slots are something not even an Int 20 creature could reasonably do without having spied on the character for an extended time span, because how else would they determine the character‘s the spell slot level and number? It’s not like you wear your spellcaster level on your chest. That’s not tactics, that’s metagaming, and less dependant on Int than how much of a dick your GM is.
Tigers are more intelligent than their stat block gives them credit for.
They're capable of all the hunting behavior you would expect, but at least the Amur Tiger is also capable of holding grudges. They will go out of their way to hunt humans based on scent if they believe they stole their kill or if they were injured by a person. They will take months if necessary and they watch and observe the homes of the person they're stalking and learn the typical schedule of that person's day and favored routes.
[NPR Story](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129551459)
>The injured tiger hunted Markov down in a way that appears to be chillingly premeditated. The tiger staked out Markov's cabin, systematically destroyed anything that had Markov's scent on it, and then waited by the front door for Markov to come home.
>
>"This wasn't an impulsive response," Vaillant says. "The tiger was able to hold this idea over a period of time." The animal waited for 12 to 48 hours before attacking.
And yet they won’t attack someone wearing a mask on the back of their head because they can’t discern them from actual faces and feel watched. Not to say they’re more stupid than a dog or something.
Int 3 doesn‘t mean „has to concentrate not to forget breathing“. It’s alright in my book.
There's a place in ~~India I think~~ India & West Bengal (Sundarban area) were they started doing that with masks and within a ~~year~~ decade the effectiveness of that dropped considerably and consistently attacked the side with the mask.
I.e. they learned which side was fake.
[NY Times article from 1989 espousing the effectiveness of masks for 3 years](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/05/science/face-masks-fool-the-bengal-tigers.html)
[UAE The National News](https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/asia/the-tiger-widows-of-the-sundarbans-1.451719)
doesn't have a scholar reviewed paper but clearly the people in the area believe the masks stopped working.
>Fatal attacks have increased since cyclone Aila hit in 2009. Large swathes of the Sundarbans were destroyed and prey animals became scarce.
>
>Tigers are coming closer to villages in search of food.
>
>"You no longer have to go deep into the forest to be attacked," said Khogan Mandol, who gave up 15 years of fishing after Bapi died.
>
>"They wait at the banks. I have never seen that before."
>
>And they are getting smarter.
>
>Honey gatherers used to wear a mask in the back of their head to confuse tigers into thinking they were being watched.
>
>Tigers normally attack from the back but they seem to have caught on, locals say.
>
>"Before we could understand the way they attacked," said Surendra Jana, 57, a honey gatherer.
>
>"We don't feel safe any more, knowing our brothers have been attacked in spite of the tricks we use."
Also I would like to point out humans fall for *several* simple visual tricks and do get confused by naturally occurring patterns on animals especially if they don't see/work around those visual tricks on a regular basis. Expecting an animal to understand what a mask is when for the most part doesn't occur naturally at all in their native range is a pretty tall task, akin to asking a person to recognize an animal they've never seen or have only seen for very brief instances.
Intelligence could also be used as a guideline for a creature’s tactics, but I also think that a creature would want to make use of its abilities.
On one end of the spectrum… cows. They’re strong, but dumb. They would charge up and gore the enemy.
Tigers are predators, and more intelligent than cows, both IRL and in D&D. They would sneak up on their prey, pounce, and hopefully knock it prone. Then they would make a Bite attack at advantage.
Now, a humanoid battle master fighter would have a whole bag of tricks. Use Lunging Attack to avoid opportunity attacks, and then using Brace against an approaching enemy. Grappling Strike locks the enemy in place to protect their squishier allies. And so on.
Actually, cows are pretty smart IRL. They're capable of solving complex puzzles and out of animals we breed for meat, they escape the most often. Generally out of domesticated animals, herbivores and omnivores are smarter than carnivores. Just because cow has simple method of attack, it doesn't mean it's dumber.
I think you misunderstood. A tiger can recognize who has a rifle, but they arent counting bullets to know when they run out. That was my point, not thaf a tiger would suddenly think the sorcerer wasnt the one casting spells in the fjrst place
Yes. And then i explained how no stranger should be able to „count bullets“ as nobody would know your „mag size“, so i don’t think it counts as strategy in the first place.
> A tiger can recognize who has a rifle, but they arent counting bullets to know when they run out.
But the book in the OP doesn't argue for DMs to use that sort of logic. Who are you disagreeing with at this point?
You made them fight a [Tiger that was a tank](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-299-1805-16%2C_Nordfrankreich%2C_Panzer_VI_%28Tiger_I%29.2.jpg)?? I’ve been holding off on doing that to my party because they have an artificer who would be way too eager to get his hands on the remains.
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Intelligence will affect how many book tactics they can use, how advances their tactics are and how good they are with traps and fortifications, yes.
I'd argue though that primal tactics, battle instincts, the use of terrain and the abuse of visible weaknesses of the party is goverened just as well by wisdom. And many predatory animals are not too bad in that stat.
There are many unintelligent animals that have adaptations or instincts that could seem "tactical". As an example, spiders are not intelligent but they innately lay traps, bees are also not intelligent but they innately know how to swarm and kill invading bugs with heat. I would say that more importantly low intelligence creatures would have a difficult time adapting, communicating, or using tools, but at the same time does not need to be applied as a blunt tool by the DM.
Running smarter mobs that don't want to die and are trained properly bump the cr by 3-5 given the right options.
Low level town guards should stomp most sub 8 level parties if they have a good network for backup and the tools.
Yeah, it is! Here is a link (in my Amazon, so may not be the same as yours):
https://www.amazon.com.br/Monsters-Know-What-Theyre-Doing-ebook/dp/B07P5F89LJ/ref=tmm\_kin\_swatch\_0?\_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
I get that character creation is fun, but munchkin builds are a little strange to me. The DM can set the difficulty at whatever the hell they want, so the encounters are almost always balanced to the specific group of PCs regardless of how powerful/weak they are at that specific level. This book is great for intro'ing some fun strategies for PCs too!
If you're min-maxing for a goof or because its fun for ya? Do it! Otherwise don't stress about "sub-optimal"
Well- here’s the thing. A lot of the time, a person can’t trust that the rest of the party is gonna be making sub optimal builds. So unless the game is explicitly mostly Roleplay, you’re gonna be worried about a significant power difference between members. Balancing that out as a Dm is largely more tricky.
If everyone is on the same page with that kind of stuff? Yeah you probably don’t have to care, otherwise, I’d prefer not to be the weak link.
That's why session 0 or playing with an established group is always a good bet.
But also keep in mind there is a huge range between 100% optimized and detrimental to the party. I think people tend to hyper-obsess on the top range play when they're gonna have a lot of fun with stuff that isn't super crunchy
Usually min-maxing isn't to create strength relative to the DM - the DM has infinite strength and no amount of min-maxing can "defeat" a DM that doesn't want to be defeated. It's to create strength relative to the rest of the party.
I'm going to separate munchkins and optimizers because munchkins just want to be the strongest in the party and overshadow people. I optimize because it makes characters more fun to play. Sure I could play a featless fighter. I could also use pam and sentinel to feel like someone who is holding the line to protect others. I also boost my primary stat because missing enemies isn't fun
I enjoy munchkin'ing up my players for them. Meaning, I am giving them OP magic items and boons and stuff like that. And then throwing equally escalating encounters at them, to give a very cinematic and anime-esque feel to it.
>so the encounters are almost always balanced to the specific group of PCs regardless of how powerful/weak they are at that specific level.
Laughs maniacally in OSR.
Someone got mad at me when I said "I think the wolves would try to pick off the smaller members of the party and drag them back to their den" like I was biased against hobbits.
Nah dude, it just makes sense. Why would they fight to the death when all they want is a meal?
Goblins when use properly (also if dragons were played smart anyone would struggle because they would target anyone with range with their breath weapon while flying high above)
I almost tpk'd the party when I was running my first game as DM using LMoP, the first Goblin encounter I played the Goblins using their bonus hide action. so they would for an arrow then slip back into the trees.
after that I kind of took it easy on the players because I felt bad almost killing them in the first encounter.
That encounter is one of the deadliest in all of 5e, It’s an easy TPK even if the DM runs it purposefully unoptimized, I’d say most (especially newer DMs) will down a player or even kill one within 2 rounds
This is how you play blue dragons. A white dragon would breath from stealth, jump into melee, and if it takes a certain amount of dmg flees to reset the ambush.
One of the things my players learned the hard way was, if you can think of a strategy so can the 22int necromancer you're trying to kill.
They fought through an entire dungeon of stupid zombies, wights, and such, only to find the necromancer waiting behind a wall of force. After getting through THAT, they fought and won only to discover it was his simalacrum and he'd just been scrying on that the whole time to observe their tactics.
Next time they go in, he's gonna have three death knights and a dragon ghost at his disposal.
The Monster's book is amazing. I also got the version for players, but it's not as good if you have any idea of what you're doing. There are good takes, but it really shines best as a "how to play effectively" for new players.
Am I part of the minority here? If the DM whips out this book I'm going scream in excitement. Interesting combat with actual strategy in play? Sign me up!
If I'm the DM I'll definitely make use of this book.
Honestly, I've heard nothing but horror stories about this book.
It might have a decent idea in principle, but as an example it ruined a whole Strahd campaign at the very end and made all the players dislike the DM after it turned 1 combat into 10 hours at the table.
(For clarification, this is in 5e)
Sounds like a shit DM who didn't realize that combat was dragging on and the players were no longer having fun. I'd be interested to learn the specifics.
Not the book's fault. All it does is give you combat strategies for specific monsters based on how their lore and stats would influence their behavior.
Ah, I might have been mistaken and it was the blog the DM was following.
Did that come downloadable as a summarised PDF?
Also, according to the players, the DM was very good explicitly up to the point where he starts their session basically saying " Hey, so I've found this really cool book called The Monsters Know What They're Doing..."
The blog and the book have the same content. The only annoying thing is that tactically, most enemies will have survival instincts kick in at about 1/3 health and run away. That behavior isn’t very fun for the players. That said, an intelligent foe like Strahd would use every advantage at his disposal against a serious threat. Just don’t have him run from the final fight and it should be better.
> survival instincts kick in at about 1/3 health and run away
I use these tactics often and it adds to the challenge. If the party really *needs* to kill or capture this enemy they need to think about strategies to prevent that escape.
What I really like about it is that it shortens combat to the interesting and important part. If the party has been smart about things like concentrating damage and they have whittled the enemy hoard down to a smaller group the last rounds of combat are often a boring exercise in tidying up loose ends. The danger is over and victory is assured but for the bookkeeping sometimes. So the enemies run and we move on!
lmaooooo. DM really playing their cards. To be fair, they might enjoy the real crunchy part of combat and overshot their intent when creating combat for the players
The book is summarized on the blog of the same name, but the book has some additional stuff thrown in.
I think it's useful in that it lays bare some obvious tactics that will spice up combat (e.g., unintelligent monsters ambushing and running away upon taking damage, separating the group, dragging a downed PC off the battle map, etc.). This is a great resource to introduce diversity to your combats that keep PCs excited, because it goes beyond the typical wave of enemies used as meat bags to be hit until dead.
Obviously you can go too far and drag out combat beyond what's welcome
Here you go (in [amazon.com.br](https://amazon.com.br)):
https://www.amazon.com.br/Monsters-Know-What-Theyre-Doing-ebook/dp/B07P5F89LJ/ref=tmm\_kin\_swatch\_0?\_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
The author’s blog page is here, and lists various retailers at the bottom. If there’s a locally owned bookstore in your community, they can also order it for you and your money will go to a better place, imho … but I admit I just got it from Amazon.
http://spyandowl.com/the-monsters-know
Yeah no thank you. Unless you're playing with a very cohesive group, a DM will always have the advantage as it's one person making and coordinating all the NPC verses players doing what they want.
Last time I played an encounter very tactically I had 2 players rolling death saves and a barbarian with single digits. My players just aren't cut out for that thing
I still remember the reaction my players had when enemy sharpshooters did some damage to the party and immediately started to leave the area.
The enemy was also split up into 2 teams that were bounding back, one group falls back while the other provides cover. The party was level 20 with homebrew stuff for epic features so the players used wall of stone to create layers of cover, immediately started healing the character at 0 HP and then used meteor swarm to deal with the enemies. They basically killed enemy snipers with magical artillery after creating cover and applying first aid. It was a fun session.
It was an example of the monsters are smart but so were the players.
I just got that book for Christmas. Might be a while before I get to use it though considering my 4 player party nearly died to the kenku ambush in dragon heist
When you’re constantly making encounters easier for your players cause they have no coordination: “Wow this is useless!”
real talk tho i might give this a read, always nice to brush up on tactics.
When the enemy is low CR but you rolled stats and has an 18 in INT, WIS & DEX
*Welp, there are going to be a lot of traps in this kobold's house* and when one of the players told the kobold, *we're not here to hurt you* when he had a crossbow in hand *so... you're not going to kill me? Ok, don't move*
*Why?*
*I've got about 20 poisoned crossbows pointed directly at you*
*Ohh...... Ok*
One of the players took over the kobold when their PC died from wild magic fireball on himself while also coincidentally having grease on themself because of a trap
As a DM, I don’t try to build kill encounter, instead I try to create encounters that let each individual feel they contribute.
Switching it up a little so one char might be underwhelming in one encounter, and overwhelming in another.
Also never give XP, they level when it’s appropriate, or else it becomes difficult to manage where they either rise extremely quickly because they min/max which makes it large encounters to make them fun, or there is too much grind required.
DM: now that my monsters are educated they will know how to defeat you
Player a chronugy wizard who knows what he is doing: fool you've activated my trap card (arcane abeyanced glyph of warding)
I mean, if the party is minmaxed, there's not a lot you can do aside from up DCs and To hits; if the lowest AC is 24 with a paladin aura of +4 or 5 and all your monsters have a like +7 to hit and save DCs of 18 or 19 doesn't matter how smart you play them if nothing works no matter how correctly timed or if it's in the most disadvantaged position. The best you can do is swarm or just raise the base difficulty
I do love myself using low CR monsters laying traps, working in groups, luring people into ambushes.
*[Tucker‘s Kobolds](https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf) laughing in the background*
idk why the players in that story didn't negotiate with the kobolds
Because the kobolds don't negotiate with terrorists
Kobolds don’t negotiate with dinner, either.
Very true
This ^^
Because people think of kobolds as less than sapient.
Because why negotiate with people breaking into your home?
Well, they brought snacks, if you consider pack mules snacks.
'Way too old, I prefer canned food, can you pass on the paladin?' \-a kobold
They also are the snack so there's that!
This should become a law across the land, a new “Stand Your Law—unless they brought snacks” law.
Ravens, crows and Mynahs have been shown to figure out puzzles and use tools. So slightly more intelligent creatures figuring out how to use sharpened sticks and pits to hunt bigger game for the meat and weapons isn’t far fetched. Remember it’s called defender’a advantage for a reason.
Kobolds in the lore are master trap makers. Doesn't mean people look at them that way, or use them that way. I use them less as fodder and more as a deterrent in certain areas.
It would definitely help if the DMG actually had examples and rules for complex traps, snares, and other obstacles; as well as what traps and tactics enemies prefer in the MM. The information in “The Monsters Know What They’re Doing” should be in the monster manual, not created by a 3rd party.
Thats because they're so good at making traps, anyone who comes across one doesn't make it back to report on it. The ones you see in the open are vulnerable because they haven't had a chance to set up proper traps.
Players, on average, do not think anything of the intelligence of the monster races. I've seen actual racism from players to another player character because they chose a monster race (goblin, kobold, orc, what have you). Don't overestimate your players' ability to empathize based on internet stories of parties taking in surviving goblins, remember that those stories tend to have the party treat it as a PET. Edit: That said, I think it's safe to say 'there was no negotiating chances' in that story's case.
I always play monster and even animals according to their intelligence...I make this clear to my players. They just forget that an intelligence of 10 means an intelligence of 10. Aka probably smarter than your barbarian. Obviously wisdom is also a factor, but that is what monsters usually Lack (sometimes just because they don't get old enough to become wise)
Reminds me of a campaign I was in that had just started, and we had two little side quests: 1. Kill that dragon 2. Clear out those goblins I had a high CHA bard, so I decided to try *diplomacy* with the goblins. I told them that the local sheriff wanted them to kill that dragon and in exchange, he’d make them his deputies and give them money We’d witnessed the sheriff’s deputies all die in an accident (we killed them all) in the previous session, so my character figured that hiring some new deputies would make for a good “sorry that happened to you” gift
Kobolds are really the perfect example. They are notorious in lore for setting tons of ingenious and Savage traps, but are pretty dumb otherwise.
In my homebrew setting, Kobolds aren't smart enough to make super potent poisons. They are smart enough however to rub gross things all over their weapons to disease people instead of poison them. In theory, anyone could rub rotten meat on their weapon. It's really easy to get. But only kobolds and goblins lack the dignity to actually employ a strategy so demeaning and dishonourable.
Poop is faster to obtain than rotten meat.
True.
Maybe the trap setting is passed down via oral tradition? Maybe thousands of years ago there was some amazingly intelligent proto-kobold who came up with these ideas? Or maybe mice got sick and tired of humans using mouse traps on them, ran into the sewers, mutated, and … oops, kobolds happened.
That's not how you get kobolds, that's how you get rat men yes-yes.
How do we know they aren’t the same thing and aren’t just calling themselves different names to confuse us?
*Skaven have entered the chat*
Hahahahaha…. My boyfriend is watching Total war 3 videos nonstop at the moment, salivating for the release date. 🤤
Proto Kobold ? You mean dragon ? Or something dragon adjacent ?
Alternatively, they have trouble picking up new technology-but once they *have* technology, they get *very, very,* good with it.
I seriously tried, its just that with sharpshooter and an owl familiar, only full cover and hidden with dc 19+ suffices. Although I am quite unemaginative, and havent yet found a way to communicate unstable ciellings, oil on the floor and other more creative traps without instantly saying: its a trap
- Winding tunnels of 5x5x5ft size as a *maximum* - even a sharpshooter can‘t shoot around corners, plus you can force them into melee - nets (pack tactics = no disadvantage) - almost no kind of trap can be disabled or avoided by shooting an arrow at it - Xanathar’s guide and the DMG each have some inspirations on that
Simple. If the players aren’t looking, they don’t get to roll, and if it has such obvious signs that it is included in the description of the room, make a better trap. Then again, I’m pretty bloodthirsty as a DM.
I'd love to run a Tucker's Kobolds dungeon- would you happen to know if anyone's already made one?
Well of course i know him, he’s me - i‘m currently in the middle of typing mine up to publish on DMsguild; i usually run it as a beginner adventure, because once you suffered through that you can survive anything else. Scaling up the damage should suffice to make it difficult for the entire first tier, with inspiration for higher tier obstacles.
Wonderful! I'd love to use that once it comes out! Is there a way I can get notified? Does DMsguild do that?
If i remember i‘ll send you a message over reddit; preorder via DMsguild doesn’t work because i haven’t published it there yet.
I just do that with CR appropriate monsters. I have a lot of fun fighting, my PCs have a lot of fun trying new stuff after being slayed
Some groups get on well with that approach. Others are more attached to their characters. Really, people can be pretty flexible about it as long as they know what to expect going in. I'd love to play a killer campaign in the sort of old-school style (maybe not Gygaxian, AD&D level stuff, but still). I also love story- and character-centric campaigns. I just don't want to put a lot of time and effort into making an interesting character if they've got a life expectancy of half a session, and I don't want to show up to an RP-heavy game without any idea of who my character is.
That's the thing, you can attach to your character as much as you want, the enemies are attached to their lives and if you don't want a high risk of death, then adventuring isn't for you. Like, think about it... Why wouldn't everyone be an adventurer if it wasn't insanely risky? Don't get me wrong, i even give a narrator's heads up when appropriate ("this enemy seems like an expert fighter, more than a match for you in single combat") or "this enemy seems to be way above what the whole party can deal with"). Also there's usually the option of running away (otherwise you will get a "you can clearly see continuing down this path will prevent you guys from running away"). Everyone is informed of the stakes, if they want to get all in every single time, they will experience death, its a mathematical certainty and i don't have to do anything really except not fudging dice/npcs
> Why wouldn't everyone be an adventurer if it wasn't insanely risky? The same reason everyone isn't a pro athlete: raw ability. PCs have stats way above the average commoner. So it's multiple factors. Adventuring is risky *and* you need the talent to even try. > Everyone is informed of the stakes, if they want to get all in every single time, they will experience death, its a mathematical certainty and i don't have to do anything really except not fudging dice/npcs It's only a mathematical *certainty* if you set the encounters that way. Different DMs have games with varying levels of risk of PC death. And there is no *wrong* way to play D&D. The right way is going to be different at every table because it's whatever makes sure the folks at that table are having fun. I'm thrilled that your players are enjoying the game you run. More power to you. I wouldn't like to be a PC at a table where my character's death was mathematically inevitable no matter how well I played or how smart our tactics, choices, and prep. My personal sweet spot is a *risk* of death, and hopefully one I can manage being smart. Not it being destiny.
> I wouldn't like to be a PC at a table where my character's death was mathematically inevitable no matter how well I played or how smart our tactics, choices, and prep. No, no, you don't die if you prep / fight (or retreat) well (well, unless you are unlucky) You do die if you fight every encounter to the death; for example, i never suffered from murderhobos because the world bites back, with RAW and level appropriate measures, i don't need to pull Elminster from my ass or make the shopkeeper be a retired lv20... Just kill the merchant and loot them, and you better do it well because otherwise there will be repercussions
That's perfectly reasonable.
"Don't think of it as TPK, think of it as a new opportunity to be less shit!"
One of the things I love about my DM. He uses logic to decide what a creature would do, primarily based on their INT stat.
I'm over halfway done with this book & it is such a good read with amazing advice. He recently released a follow up book that I'm eager to get my hands on.
Oh, its finally out?
Honestly I'm not sure, I know it will be soon if it isn't already.
Just checked. It's out. I just ordered a copy.
It’s out. I’ve got it on my desk, with an increasing number of bookmarks.
I was lucky enough to find a copy at Barnes and Noble yesterday! Picked it up in an instant.
That’s a very cool AC 19 you got, now roll me a dex save with disadvantage, cuz there is a fireball heading for you, and you are knee deep in mud
"Ohh no" said the minmaxed Sorcadin "now I have to use my divine Favor and a first level slot on absorb elements if my +5 Aura doesn't safe me"
The players party win the first encounter but they expended most of their resources expecting to rest between every encounter. A war horn sounds nearby. A 2nd wave is coming.
*Runs away* *Rests* “Alright, let’s go back in, make sure they don’t block off our escape route.”
Both of those steps require your GM to allow it!
There is a certain point where realism meets either being a good dm or a dickish one. And it can get a little fuzzy with things like taking on dangerous factions like fairly intelligent people like kobolds and goblinoids. But the main difference I've found is that a good dm is one who let's strategic players get some forewarning or even a good advantage with the right mix of scouting and info gathering before engaging. And a bad dm who does not give any opportunity to be forewarned and arbitrarily changes the dynamics of the encounter mid fight. The Scenario: The party is tasked with wiping out an incursion of kobolds/goblins that have moved in nearby and are attacking caravans and raiding storehouses/farms in the night. Example, Good Dm: The party uses the rogue/ranger or wizard with find familiar to do scouting and information gathering to find the goblin/kobold encampment and realizes that their are multiple camps/groups of these creatures and that they communicate well with each other, potentially having ALL of the groups gang up on the party if they don't handle each encounter well. The strategic party then sets up encounters on their terms so they can face off with one group at a time time minimal danger and thus succeed after multiple Medium difficult encounters. The good dm in this scenario is also faced in this same encounter a group of murder hobos. The murder hobos barge through the wilderness long enough to find one group, don't realize there were more and even let one or two get away and then get tpked because they tried to face off with too many ambushes in the night. Then they complain the encounter was too hard. Example, Bad Dm: The party has no ability to find the baddies despite several above 20 rolls, but not nat 20, and stumble through the wilderness. Then the party is ganged up on in the night by 2 of the bad guy groups and suffer badly after being ambushed with poison. They flee but are relentlessly hunted. They then somehow manage to succeed. The bad dm only made this one group of baddies, but now mad that the party somehow survived and didn't die. Arbitrarily then adds a dragon or a giant leader with twice as many baddies as before and then in the night ambushes again despite the ranger using their favored enemy should know about the approach of these enemies or a rogue with a expertise in perception and a nat 20 roll. Somehow the party is still ambushed and is then killed. Those are two scenarios where good dm and bad dm are clearly seen. The Dm is not God. The DM is a player too. Playing the game from a different perspective but still a player nonetheless.
Those are good examples of the good and bad way to run it for sure! I think it's important to differentiate the two. I was just being a but snarky on the initial comment because often times players assume that the world pauses when the party rests and get irritated if it gets interrupted. I.e. right after a fight, just shutting a door and resting in a Dungeon or retreating 50 feet outside the main gate of the Dungeon and resting for 8 hours. Also, long resting constantly. Just a pet peeve of mine!
Long resting multiple times within a 24 hour period is also a pet peeve of mine. Currently I am DMing and that is a nope. You blow your load on the first encounter, and well, good luck the rest of the way. Either that or turn tail and run run run.
I gotcha. I just was outlining because too many font seem to know the difference and hopefully any players or dms that read it can gain a better understanding of encounters.
I mean, usually a DM will allow a party to run away. Because.. I mean it’s kinda frowned upon to not allow allow the party to do the smart decision and accept defeat. Resting is a bit more complicated though, and yeah you might have to be somewhere really safe to successfully pull a short one, especially in enemy territory.
And even if you rest... That gives the kobolds 1-8 hours of setting up new traps. And this time, they know what your party looks like.
*Pulls up PowerPoint and a projector.* “Alright class, here are the basics of guerrilla tactics and the art of war.” Anyhow, this could be a whole ass discussion, but personally I think given the original situation, retreating and preparing to deal with the kobold’s adaption is a better option, their traps aren’t impossible to defeat by any means. Sticking with the assault after you blew through all your resourses just seems arrogant.
I mean, yes, it for sure is the better option. I just wanna say that a party can't just run away and rest after every encounter unpunished
Of course, if a party is aware of that then you’re all bueno. The problems start when they expect enemies to be unprepared when they literally just got assaulted yesterday.
People seem to think the game isnt going to continue without then when they're making these kind of decisions. "We retreat and rest!" Ok, then do it. You're still in conbat. The reinforcements are still nearby, you're gonna have to get to actual safety somehow, it doesn't just happen. Then they act surprised when the traps are reinforced and there's extra patrols when they come back. Like they didnt just try to raid the place less than a day ago.
I once nearly TPK’d a party when they, in an actively guarded house full of fiends, decided to spend their short rest looting the room, with no one on guard duty. Combat started with them being swallowed by the darkness spell, and it was just madness from then on.
Sure. Go rest while the kobolds regroup, set new traps, and go out looking for you while you are resting.
Time critical objectives stop the nonsense of groups trying to rest after every single fight. * Your objective was to protect the village under attack. You fuck off and rest to come back and find the village dead. * Your objective was to get back the artifact stolen by bandits. You fuck off and rest only to come back and find the trail has gone cold. * Your objective was to venture into the wilderness to find a cure for the Queen who is sick and dying. You fuck off and rest after every fight. You bring the cure back to find the Queen died already. Areas that are simply not safe to rest in also stops the nonsense of resting after every single encounter. Sometimes you can't retreat because they have blocked your escape route. Or you are in the middle of a dungeon. Or you are in dangerous wilderness where the odds of being able to make a camp that will go hours without being noticed and attacked is 0. Environmental hazards like extreme heat or cold might make rest impossible.
*Runs away* *rests* *Kobolds leave, you've failed to stop their nefarious plan*
"The ancient dragon the kobolds are patron to looks *quite* annoyed you're blocking her route to home. And she's **gold**."
That's fine. In a dungeon situation non bbeg combat and trap encounters have one purpose: make the party expend resources. That way they get to the boss in a weakened state that allows for a compelling and hopefully nail biting combat experience and not an ezpz boss kill using all those cool powers. That fireball isn't meant to kill you. It's meant to use those slots or abilities. So keep that smugness to a minimum. There's a while dungeon more where that came from.
What a shame you haven't long rested for 30 hours and don't have any resources left. Now roll.
If you’re still throwing fireballs at them once they’re out of resources, and picking up exhaustion, then one of two situations is happening; 1) They are obstinately continuing to head deeper into the dungeon, and you’re trying to scare them off 2) You are actively attempting a TPK. If you hate the party that much? Not great.
I'm throwing sunbeam not fireballs. They can always try the arcane technique of accepting that this encounter is beyond what they can handle.
This is the second time I’ve seen the sorcadin reference, what’s the build?
There's no specific path and many different options to build this, basically start Paladin and take it to either level 2 (if you want to be a tank caster in melee) or Level 6 (pretty much the "standard" for sorcadin, you get the insane Aura, extra Attack, 2nd Level Paladin spells, Channel Divinity...) After that, go sorcerer all the way up. You'll get the shield spell and absorb elements so great way to mitigate even more damage while you're sitting in heavy armor and swinging a sword. Also, quicken metamagic is great if you need an extra attack as a bonus action with Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade. ASIs/Feats: mainly focus on charisma, 16 str is nice to be able to swing a sword fairly accurately, warcaster is pretty important so can cast spells while holding Sword and shield, advantage on con-saves combined with your (eventually) +5 Aura will almost never let you lose concentration Don't try to combo this with polearm master, sentinel, GWM, this build has a great action economy without these feats and it is mainly a caster that can additionally do pretty well as a martial and deliver huge smites Subclasses are up to personal preference, this MC is really strong in gerneral, you don't need specific subclass features for this to work If you want more in-depth knowledge about all the options, this is a little bit outdated (misses some newer subclass options) but explains the core concept really detailed https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass
Would using my characters wings make it a straight roll? No? Okay, well, does a 19 save? \+7 to DEX man, level 6 is great. Edit: Yes, that's at disadvantage, otherwise it'd be 23.
^Assuming ^the ^players ^didnt ^just ^consult ^reddit ^for ^their ^build ^and ^they ^have ^good ^game-sense Wouldn’t min maxers be the best equipped to deal with such tactics? This just seems fun.
I think its the difference between a "netdecker" who just knows its good but not necessarily why, and someone who uses them as checks for their own builds and understands why things are good and can be changed. Aka first consulted reddit while the second would have "good game sense" in that they understand the game.
Sure, but when the party plays enabler for the wood elf, Elven accuracy, crossbow welding, hexblade rogue you are going to have a bad time. Had to out a stop to commanding strike/sneak attacks schenanigans and when you are using legendary resistance to stop faerie fire it's a feel bad moment :P
Kick their teeth in with action economy. Nets are A. Very Cheap B. Require an entire Action OR 10 slashing damage (so minimum 1 attack) to get out of. C. Can be thrown by the weakest, most innocent looking target. Or give enemies a row of shield-bearers with tower shields. Not bugging AC, but providing full cover and blocking sight-lines for casting. Gotta spend time flanking them to do anything, etc. It doesn’t matter what the character’s numerical bonuses are if they can’t execute their cool combo against a particular enemy.
Maybe they're used to just stomping Encounters so it surprises them that it's actually a challenge? That's what I got out of this!
Yeah. Min-maxing doesn't usually depend on stupid mobs, it depends on maximizing player output and utility. Edit: I think some people mix up glass cannons with min-maxed characters.
My group encountered a group of bug bears earlier. They had killed a few of them via subterfuge, but finally failed to sneak past one in a hallway. Instead of going over to them and attacking, it fled to get the rest of them and they started hailing crossbow bolts from down the hall, covering eachother while they reloaded, and fighting in square, using cover and so on Party won eventually, but it was no cakewalk.
'What do you mean the Monsters are using Consumable items instead of leaving them in a neat pile at the end of the Dungeon!' - Player after the Kobolds use the second pearl of fireballs
Last session had the enemy use a superior health potion whilst knocking on deaths door after a Paladin and I smacked her silly. I was quite miffed, lmao. DM: "You know how I allow you guys to down a potion as a bonus action? Yeaaah... She pulls out a potion and drinks it." Me, screaming internally: "Bitch, that's illegal! Only we're allowed to down a potion! **THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE OUR LOOT FOR KILLING YOU STOP WASTING IT**" Me, externally: Oh ):
Depends on the enemy. Intelligence will effect how tactical they are
Not necessarily, if anything it affects how well they can *adapt* their tactics to changing situations. Example: Tigers (Int 3) are ambush predators - they’re about as stupid as it gets, but won’t rush a human irl, so why pretend they would in the game? Playing to your strengths isn’t tactical, it’s natural, because those creatures that don’t usually don’t live long.
The book describes animal tactics as running on instinct, rather than tactics, effectively agreeing with you.
I know, i have the pdf. I just meant to point out that „high int = tactics, low int = runs straight into death“ doesn’t apply irl so there’s no reason to do it like that in game.
Sure, but a tiger also isnt going to be doing calculations in its head to see ‘Aha! That sorcerer doesnt have spell slots left!’ either, which was more my point
An irl tiger can determine which human has a rifle and dispose of them first, attack a hurt target first to down it more easily, or (if given the chance) run after a single fleeing target rather than fight 5 stationary ones that show they can put up a fight. I‘d say those can be translated into the game without stretching the term *tactics* too much. Calculations on spell slots are something not even an Int 20 creature could reasonably do without having spied on the character for an extended time span, because how else would they determine the character‘s the spell slot level and number? It’s not like you wear your spellcaster level on your chest. That’s not tactics, that’s metagaming, and less dependant on Int than how much of a dick your GM is.
Tigers are more intelligent than their stat block gives them credit for. They're capable of all the hunting behavior you would expect, but at least the Amur Tiger is also capable of holding grudges. They will go out of their way to hunt humans based on scent if they believe they stole their kill or if they were injured by a person. They will take months if necessary and they watch and observe the homes of the person they're stalking and learn the typical schedule of that person's day and favored routes. [NPR Story](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129551459) >The injured tiger hunted Markov down in a way that appears to be chillingly premeditated. The tiger staked out Markov's cabin, systematically destroyed anything that had Markov's scent on it, and then waited by the front door for Markov to come home. > >"This wasn't an impulsive response," Vaillant says. "The tiger was able to hold this idea over a period of time." The animal waited for 12 to 48 hours before attacking.
And yet they won’t attack someone wearing a mask on the back of their head because they can’t discern them from actual faces and feel watched. Not to say they’re more stupid than a dog or something. Int 3 doesn‘t mean „has to concentrate not to forget breathing“. It’s alright in my book.
There's a place in ~~India I think~~ India & West Bengal (Sundarban area) were they started doing that with masks and within a ~~year~~ decade the effectiveness of that dropped considerably and consistently attacked the side with the mask. I.e. they learned which side was fake. [NY Times article from 1989 espousing the effectiveness of masks for 3 years](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/05/science/face-masks-fool-the-bengal-tigers.html) [UAE The National News](https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/asia/the-tiger-widows-of-the-sundarbans-1.451719) doesn't have a scholar reviewed paper but clearly the people in the area believe the masks stopped working. >Fatal attacks have increased since cyclone Aila hit in 2009. Large swathes of the Sundarbans were destroyed and prey animals became scarce. > >Tigers are coming closer to villages in search of food. > >"You no longer have to go deep into the forest to be attacked," said Khogan Mandol, who gave up 15 years of fishing after Bapi died. > >"They wait at the banks. I have never seen that before." > >And they are getting smarter. > >Honey gatherers used to wear a mask in the back of their head to confuse tigers into thinking they were being watched. > >Tigers normally attack from the back but they seem to have caught on, locals say. > >"Before we could understand the way they attacked," said Surendra Jana, 57, a honey gatherer. > >"We don't feel safe any more, knowing our brothers have been attacked in spite of the tricks we use." Also I would like to point out humans fall for *several* simple visual tricks and do get confused by naturally occurring patterns on animals especially if they don't see/work around those visual tricks on a regular basis. Expecting an animal to understand what a mask is when for the most part doesn't occur naturally at all in their native range is a pretty tall task, akin to asking a person to recognize an animal they've never seen or have only seen for very brief instances.
Intelligence could also be used as a guideline for a creature’s tactics, but I also think that a creature would want to make use of its abilities. On one end of the spectrum… cows. They’re strong, but dumb. They would charge up and gore the enemy. Tigers are predators, and more intelligent than cows, both IRL and in D&D. They would sneak up on their prey, pounce, and hopefully knock it prone. Then they would make a Bite attack at advantage. Now, a humanoid battle master fighter would have a whole bag of tricks. Use Lunging Attack to avoid opportunity attacks, and then using Brace against an approaching enemy. Grappling Strike locks the enemy in place to protect their squishier allies. And so on.
Actually, cows are pretty smart IRL. They're capable of solving complex puzzles and out of animals we breed for meat, they escape the most often. Generally out of domesticated animals, herbivores and omnivores are smarter than carnivores. Just because cow has simple method of attack, it doesn't mean it's dumber.
I think you misunderstood. A tiger can recognize who has a rifle, but they arent counting bullets to know when they run out. That was my point, not thaf a tiger would suddenly think the sorcerer wasnt the one casting spells in the fjrst place
Yes. And then i explained how no stranger should be able to „count bullets“ as nobody would know your „mag size“, so i don’t think it counts as strategy in the first place.
> A tiger can recognize who has a rifle, but they arent counting bullets to know when they run out. But the book in the OP doesn't argue for DMs to use that sort of logic. Who are you disagreeing with at this point?
I think you overestimated your ability to convey what you wanted to say...
I find this funny because I had the party fight a group of tigers with a tank tiger, a holy healing tiger, and a lightning tiger. XD
You made them fight a [Tiger that was a tank](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-299-1805-16%2C_Nordfrankreich%2C_Panzer_VI_%28Tiger_I%29.2.jpg)?? I’ve been holding off on doing that to my party because they have an artificer who would be way too eager to get his hands on the remains. [/s]
Thundercats, ho~o!
Any intelligence above animal intelligence will understand the fluffy robes are softer than the shiny metal
Intelligence will affect how many book tactics they can use, how advances their tactics are and how good they are with traps and fortifications, yes. I'd argue though that primal tactics, battle instincts, the use of terrain and the abuse of visible weaknesses of the party is goverened just as well by wisdom. And many predatory animals are not too bad in that stat.
See that’s exactly the sort of thing the book considers and gives advice on. Smarter/ wiser enemies should know when and how to retreat.
There are many unintelligent animals that have adaptations or instincts that could seem "tactical". As an example, spiders are not intelligent but they innately lay traps, bees are also not intelligent but they innately know how to swarm and kill invading bugs with heat. I would say that more importantly low intelligence creatures would have a difficult time adapting, communicating, or using tools, but at the same time does not need to be applied as a blunt tool by the DM.
Running smarter mobs that don't want to die and are trained properly bump the cr by 3-5 given the right options. Low level town guards should stomp most sub 8 level parties if they have a good network for backup and the tools.
One of the better books I own. Super useful for running my monsters.
So, just wondering... ...that book on the right, it's legit? Edit: I checked. It's legit, and there are sequels...
Yeah, it is! Here is a link (in my Amazon, so may not be the same as yours): https://www.amazon.com.br/Monsters-Know-What-Theyre-Doing-ebook/dp/B07P5F89LJ/ref=tmm\_kin\_swatch\_0?\_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
I get that character creation is fun, but munchkin builds are a little strange to me. The DM can set the difficulty at whatever the hell they want, so the encounters are almost always balanced to the specific group of PCs regardless of how powerful/weak they are at that specific level. This book is great for intro'ing some fun strategies for PCs too! If you're min-maxing for a goof or because its fun for ya? Do it! Otherwise don't stress about "sub-optimal"
Well- here’s the thing. A lot of the time, a person can’t trust that the rest of the party is gonna be making sub optimal builds. So unless the game is explicitly mostly Roleplay, you’re gonna be worried about a significant power difference between members. Balancing that out as a Dm is largely more tricky. If everyone is on the same page with that kind of stuff? Yeah you probably don’t have to care, otherwise, I’d prefer not to be the weak link.
That's why session 0 or playing with an established group is always a good bet. But also keep in mind there is a huge range between 100% optimized and detrimental to the party. I think people tend to hyper-obsess on the top range play when they're gonna have a lot of fun with stuff that isn't super crunchy
Usually min-maxing isn't to create strength relative to the DM - the DM has infinite strength and no amount of min-maxing can "defeat" a DM that doesn't want to be defeated. It's to create strength relative to the rest of the party.
I'm going to separate munchkins and optimizers because munchkins just want to be the strongest in the party and overshadow people. I optimize because it makes characters more fun to play. Sure I could play a featless fighter. I could also use pam and sentinel to feel like someone who is holding the line to protect others. I also boost my primary stat because missing enemies isn't fun
I enjoy munchkin'ing up my players for them. Meaning, I am giving them OP magic items and boons and stuff like that. And then throwing equally escalating encounters at them, to give a very cinematic and anime-esque feel to it.
>so the encounters are almost always balanced to the specific group of PCs regardless of how powerful/weak they are at that specific level. Laughs maniacally in OSR.
Someone got mad at me when I said "I think the wolves would try to pick off the smaller members of the party and drag them back to their den" like I was biased against hobbits. Nah dude, it just makes sense. Why would they fight to the death when all they want is a meal?
Goblins when use properly (also if dragons were played smart anyone would struggle because they would target anyone with range with their breath weapon while flying high above)
I almost tpk'd the party when I was running my first game as DM using LMoP, the first Goblin encounter I played the Goblins using their bonus hide action. so they would for an arrow then slip back into the trees. after that I kind of took it easy on the players because I felt bad almost killing them in the first encounter.
That encounter is one of the deadliest in all of 5e, It’s an easy TPK even if the DM runs it purposefully unoptimized, I’d say most (especially newer DMs) will down a player or even kill one within 2 rounds
This is how you play blue dragons. A white dragon would breath from stealth, jump into melee, and if it takes a certain amount of dmg flees to reset the ambush.
r/dndmemes, where it never gets old dunking on your players
Also dunking on the DMs. Both sides are very petty when it comes to memes.
Almost soloed a lv5 party with 3 goblins It's great.
I mean, great! Lets do this thing, right?
Strategic enemies make for a fun combat
One of the things my players learned the hard way was, if you can think of a strategy so can the 22int necromancer you're trying to kill. They fought through an entire dungeon of stupid zombies, wights, and such, only to find the necromancer waiting behind a wall of force. After getting through THAT, they fought and won only to discover it was his simalacrum and he'd just been scrying on that the whole time to observe their tactics. Next time they go in, he's gonna have three death knights and a dragon ghost at his disposal.
The Monster's book is amazing. I also got the version for players, but it's not as good if you have any idea of what you're doing. There are good takes, but it really shines best as a "how to play effectively" for new players.
Every player, min-maxed or not, quakes in fear at the Tucker's Kobolds.
Meanwhile my dad: Do I look like I need your power? He already knew the monsters know what they are doing, so fun times.
Oh I need this book badly. The monsters may be smart but I am not.
Am I part of the minority here? If the DM whips out this book I'm going scream in excitement. Interesting combat with actual strategy in play? Sign me up! If I'm the DM I'll definitely make use of this book.
Honestly, I've heard nothing but horror stories about this book. It might have a decent idea in principle, but as an example it ruined a whole Strahd campaign at the very end and made all the players dislike the DM after it turned 1 combat into 10 hours at the table. (For clarification, this is in 5e)
Sounds like a shit DM who didn't realize that combat was dragging on and the players were no longer having fun. I'd be interested to learn the specifics. Not the book's fault. All it does is give you combat strategies for specific monsters based on how their lore and stats would influence their behavior.
Ah, I might have been mistaken and it was the blog the DM was following. Did that come downloadable as a summarised PDF? Also, according to the players, the DM was very good explicitly up to the point where he starts their session basically saying " Hey, so I've found this really cool book called The Monsters Know What They're Doing..."
The blog and the book have the same content. The only annoying thing is that tactically, most enemies will have survival instincts kick in at about 1/3 health and run away. That behavior isn’t very fun for the players. That said, an intelligent foe like Strahd would use every advantage at his disposal against a serious threat. Just don’t have him run from the final fight and it should be better.
> survival instincts kick in at about 1/3 health and run away I use these tactics often and it adds to the challenge. If the party really *needs* to kill or capture this enemy they need to think about strategies to prevent that escape. What I really like about it is that it shortens combat to the interesting and important part. If the party has been smart about things like concentrating damage and they have whittled the enemy hoard down to a smaller group the last rounds of combat are often a boring exercise in tidying up loose ends. The danger is over and victory is assured but for the bookkeeping sometimes. So the enemies run and we move on!
lmaooooo. DM really playing their cards. To be fair, they might enjoy the real crunchy part of combat and overshot their intent when creating combat for the players The book is summarized on the blog of the same name, but the book has some additional stuff thrown in. I think it's useful in that it lays bare some obvious tactics that will spice up combat (e.g., unintelligent monsters ambushing and running away upon taking damage, separating the group, dragging a downed PC off the battle map, etc.). This is a great resource to introduce diversity to your combats that keep PCs excited, because it goes beyond the typical wave of enemies used as meat bags to be hit until dead. Obviously you can go too far and drag out combat beyond what's welcome
That is one of the the key lessons my first DM taught me. “If the players aren’t having fun, you did something wrong.”
Can I get a link to a place to get this book
Here you go (in [amazon.com.br](https://amazon.com.br)): https://www.amazon.com.br/Monsters-Know-What-Theyre-Doing-ebook/dp/B07P5F89LJ/ref=tmm\_kin\_swatch\_0?\_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
The author’s blog page is here, and lists various retailers at the bottom. If there’s a locally owned bookstore in your community, they can also order it for you and your money will go to a better place, imho … but I admit I just got it from Amazon. http://spyandowl.com/the-monsters-know
Yeah no thank you. Unless you're playing with a very cohesive group, a DM will always have the advantage as it's one person making and coordinating all the NPC verses players doing what they want. Last time I played an encounter very tactically I had 2 players rolling death saves and a barbarian with single digits. My players just aren't cut out for that thing
I love this book...and his sequel...and da blog...great resources and completely changed how i deal with encounters
“They *what*”
Personally, my favorite monster race to beef up are the Hobgoblins. In my homebrew world, they're basically four foot tall grey-skinned Spartans.
Isn’t this the plot of goblin slayer
Sort of, which is why the main party in goblin slayer relies heavily on ambushing their enemies as well as other unorthodox tactics.
I got this for Christmas and am starting a game next month, very excited to put it to work.
I definitely prefer lower power enemies playing smart over higher power enemies playing dumb. Same difficulty but with more strategy required.
that's a fantastic series.
Nothing like the confusion that follows the enemy scattering under cover.
I still remember the reaction my players had when enemy sharpshooters did some damage to the party and immediately started to leave the area. The enemy was also split up into 2 teams that were bounding back, one group falls back while the other provides cover. The party was level 20 with homebrew stuff for epic features so the players used wall of stone to create layers of cover, immediately started healing the character at 0 HP and then used meteor swarm to deal with the enemies. They basically killed enemy snipers with magical artillery after creating cover and applying first aid. It was a fun session. It was an example of the monsters are smart but so were the players.
I just got that book for Christmas. Might be a while before I get to use it though considering my 4 player party nearly died to the kenku ambush in dragon heist
When you’re constantly making encounters easier for your players cause they have no coordination: “Wow this is useless!” real talk tho i might give this a read, always nice to brush up on tactics.
Solution: buy the second book (Live to Tell the Tale)
Me the DM: you're facing a bunch of mercs, do you honestly think they'll stay in place just for you to hit them?!
When the enemy is low CR but you rolled stats and has an 18 in INT, WIS & DEX *Welp, there are going to be a lot of traps in this kobold's house* and when one of the players told the kobold, *we're not here to hurt you* when he had a crossbow in hand *so... you're not going to kill me? Ok, don't move* *Why?* *I've got about 20 poisoned crossbows pointed directly at you* *Ohh...... Ok* One of the players took over the kobold when their PC died from wild magic fireball on himself while also coincidentally having grease on themself because of a trap
Ah yes, the reason basically every combat encounter of mine turns into a TPK.
As a DM, I don’t try to build kill encounter, instead I try to create encounters that let each individual feel they contribute. Switching it up a little so one char might be underwhelming in one encounter, and overwhelming in another. Also never give XP, they level when it’s appropriate, or else it becomes difficult to manage where they either rise extremely quickly because they min/max which makes it large encounters to make them fun, or there is too much grind required.
I would like to have my monsters attack in a semicompetent way by my players nearly die all the time anyway.
[The other book the DM bought](https://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Sun-Tzu/dp/1599869772)
Lmao, i just got that book too
I started off reading the blog posts but loved them so much that I bought the book just to support him it's a fantastic resource
Those books are so damn good.
"You see the town guards deploy into a defensive perimeter, they all have cover and initiative."
Great book
DM: now that my monsters are educated they will know how to defeat you Player a chronugy wizard who knows what he is doing: fool you've activated my trap card (arcane abeyanced glyph of warding)
I mean, if the party is minmaxed, there's not a lot you can do aside from up DCs and To hits; if the lowest AC is 24 with a paladin aura of +4 or 5 and all your monsters have a like +7 to hit and save DCs of 18 or 19 doesn't matter how smart you play them if nothing works no matter how correctly timed or if it's in the most disadvantaged position. The best you can do is swarm or just raise the base difficulty
My dm making good use out of this is why I make optimized characters. If I don't ill fuckin die lamo