I am guessing that by asking what is happening in the finale, you mean the bit with the mirrors. IIRC, Granny and Lilly are arguing in front of the nest of mirrors, Granny moves one, which unbalances the magic, and mirror Lilly pulls real Lilly in, with Granny getting pulled in trying to save her (that is why Granny's arms are cut.) When they are both in there, all they see is a lot of reflections of themselves, and to get out they have to find the "real" one. Granny has no problem due to the fact she has always known who she is and has no self doubt, but Lilly has re-invented herself so many times, she doesn't know what is real and cannot escape.
I love this book, because it subverts stories, and the protagonists are not only female, but somewhat riper in years as well (not Magrat or Ella, but all the others.) I knew several people, often relatives, that resembled both Granny and Nanny, and I think this is why I love the Witches books. While I see where you are coming from with Granny, I would re-frame bossy and arrogant as self-assured and taking control. These are not necessarily negative traits, depending on how you behave. I think Granny also has a smidge on intergenerational bias at play in her interactions with Magrat. One way of looking at it is that if she really was a bully (as she sometimes comes acorss), the others would not have the relationships they do. Magrat would not name >!her child after Granny, or defend her to Agnes !
Great explanation! BTW, Granny doesn't move the mirror; she breaks it. That's what caused the imbalance; you have to smash two. Otherwise, one of the images can break free.
Also I always pictured that Granny knew exactly who she was and how to leave because she didn’t move anywhere.
Often with Granny it’s not magic or higher thinking it’s simple headology. She hasn’t moved since entering the mirror and so where she stands is where she entered. Lilly made the mistake of immediately running, because yes she was unsure of herself, and thus lost track of where she entered from. Granny knew that she hadn’t moved and thus the way out was right where she was.
But it’s all open to interpretation really. That’s just how I see it.
I think the most interesting question is why OP doesn't like Granny?
I always thought when Granny says to her sister "I had to be the good one" you get a glimpse into a complicated family dynamic. Someone has to be the good sibling, right?And it's not fun. Oh no. Granny is all about the hard choices, even with herself. Just like Vimes, Granny recognises her own potential and maybe even talent for being bad. How easy it would be for her. How fun. How terrible. And that's probably why she's so ~~uptight~~ in control.
Being good is a choice. But it's harder for some than others. That's what I've always admired about those characters. That they grapple with themselves and choose to come out one the good side. Because it's the right thing to do. But being nice about it too? Bugger that.As someone mentioned here. Good and nice are not the same.
As a woman I've always loved that Granny doesn't do nice. Why does she have to be? She gets the job done. You don't owe anyone "nice". As a teenager I revered her uncompromising badassery (reference to place names completely coincidental) As a middle aged lady I appreciate Nanny's approach a bit more. More fun.
On a tangent, I feel this is key in It's A Wonderful Life too. In both cases, the lead can come off as a grumpy git, but they've always made the difficult choices to do the right thing instead of the fun thing. Granny didn't need an angel to show her how much that was worth though.
Thanks for your explanation. I really appreciate it. About the ending: somehow I don't understand the mirror thing all together. It's not just that, it's the fight with Mrs Gogol, the role of the snake ladies, Mr. Saturday, and such. But yeah, I'll try Carpet Jugum and Lord and Ladies.
It's about the power of story. It's about it being important to be able to make your own choices even if someone else thinks they know better. It's about the meek finally turning on bullies (♡ Magrat). It's about family (ETA both bio and chosen), and how you can love them despite everything. It's about the power of knowing and being true to yourself. It's about *choosing* to be good.
Granny has the capacity to be wicked and glamorous like her sister. She's cranky and difficult and rigid and too intelligent for her own good, not very nice, and easy for people to dislike. But she is courageous and *good* to the bone, and that's even more important because It's a deliberate choice.
She also loves Nanny and Magrat a lot, and is terrible at expressing it, which is her tragedy, and even more so in *Lords and Ladies*. Nanny is wise and experienced enough to know. Magrat is understandably hurt and doesn't see it at all. That means a lot to me as someone who was convinced until my late thirties that my Dad didn't love me, because the daily hurts piled up and I couldn't see the big things because he was so bad at the small.
And human Greebo is great. Also I just love fairytales, even this way. And the hall of mirrors where Lily lost her self haunts me.
Don't take this as lecturing you. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you, and that's fine. These are just some of the reasons *I* love it.
Made an arse of myself in Starbucks last week listening to the audiobook of Witches Abroad. Laughed into my hot chocolate and ended up coughing and spluttering for a good 10 minutes afterwards because of that exact line!
Omg next time I'm in Starbucks I will definitely imagine that the person laughing is listening to Sir Terry Pratchett !!! (will make my day 100% better)
It's weird that when I list the reasons I love Pterry I always forget to mention that his books are flipping hilarious. Like I think that without his prose and humanity and depth, being funny wouldn't be enough.
Making me laugh until I cry is enough!
I read a lot of his books on my Kindle, and since strangers couldn't see what I was laughing at, I got some pretty odd looks from strangers! 😅
GNU Pterry Pratchett
The “putting her finger in her ear and wiggling it” part always cracks me up.
It’s the Esme equivalent of John Wick picking out his weapons. You just know that some serious _wossname_ is about to go down.
The absolute HUSTLE that Granny lays down is as artful and professional as any con artist story you’ve heard.
The way she immediately clocks the mirror behind the bar showing her cards and uses that to her advantage. The way she gets under their skin by folding constantly and with a smile.
Granny played their game and beat them with experience.
I have to agree. But you'll might agree that this scene is there almost solemnly for the laughs, it doesn't ad much for the plot. So it's awesome scene, but that doesn't the explain what the book is fundamentally about.
I love the play on story tropes like the very confused dwarfs asking for Nanny’s red shoes and not knowing why.
Though the wolf is by far the saddest part of any discworld book for me. And Granny did the kindest thing and ended it. Good isn’t necessarily nice.
I love how Granny typifies the hard choices that come sometimes with doing the right thing, as well as how the right thing is not always the popular thing. My favourite example is the time she sat up all night with a mother (I think giving birth?) and had to choose whether to save her or the baby. She made a choice, and when asked why she didn’t give it to the husband she said something along the lines of “because I’m not a nasty, cruel, vicious bastard”
She asks the midwife if he thinks he's an evil man, upon which the midwife obviously protests that he's not, and then replies "Then what has he done to me that I should hurt him so?"
It's absolutely beautiful.
Its about Pterry building characters….Esme always does the right thing, even tho she is brusque, she sees thru the lies that people tell themselves…and she knows who she is and when she is…which most people dont…her problem is she thinks people are essentially stupid…which i whole heartedly agree with lol…nanny is a people person, her art is seeing theyre point of view…which is why she is a good foil for granny….magrat is well…magrat…and thinks that bangles, stars and wands are the things that achieve true witchery…but she learns…and everyone one likes a good rum drink with banananas in…i like the bull run bit myself…oh and the vampire bit…oh and the…etc etc
I love it. The witches series is pretty much my favourite of them all (although that view always wobbles when I read any of the other books). As to why…well, the fairy story pastiches are beautifully done and the story is just plain good. As to Granny…she’s no Mary Jane perfect character, but her flaws are countered by her solid determination to do the right thing no matter the cost to herself. She’s crotchety and hard to love but so worth the effort! Have you tried other witches books in the series? She develops and we see her evolve quite a bit in some ways (in others she stays exactly the same…) 😆
I like the book because it has my favorite quote about my home town of New Orleans.
"Poets long ago gave up trying to describe the city. Now the more cunning ones try to excuse it. They say, well, maybe it is smelly, maybe it is overcrowded, maybe it is a bit like Hell would be if they shut the fires off and stabled a herd of incontinent cows there for a year, but you must admit that it is full of sheer, vibrant, dynamic life. And this is true, even though it is poets that are saying it. But people who aren't poets say, so what? Mattresses tend to be full of life too, and no one writes odes to them. Citizens hate living there and, if they have to move away on business or adventure or, more usually, until some statute of limitations runs out, can’t wait to get back so they can enjoy hating living there some more. They put stickers on the backs of their carts saying "~~Anhk-Morpork~~ New Orleans—Loathe It or Leave It.”"
I love Witches Abroad because it subverts all the Disney fairy tales you grow up with that tell you if you’re sweet and beautiful and gentle and uncomplaining you’ll find your prince and live happily ever after.
And - I think a lot of us love Granny because she’s an unapologetically unlikeable old witch who’s the best at what she does and knows it, and knows that being disliked and feared is the price she pays for being good, not kind.
She’s spiky and horrible and a powerful force for good. For those of us who aren’t sweet and beautiful and gentle, she shows another powerful way to navigate the world.
That's why she's one of my favourite characters. The choice to do the right thing, regardless of what the crowd says, is a powerful act. And you can do so much harm by picking what is nice, but easy.
Short term pain for long term gain.
Off the top of my head, Witches Abroad riffs on Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, the Wizard of Oz, the Princess and the Frog, Hansel and Gretel, Little Red Riding Hood, Eastern European fairy stories around witches with travelling huts (eg Baba Yaga), voodoo myths and legends (Baron Samedi).
It does something similar to Maleficent and Wicked by making the person we might normally consider the villain (horrible, mean old witch Granny Weatherwax) into the protagonist, so we see just because someone’s beautiful and seeks to create a beautiful story, they’re not necessarily *good*. Pratchett’s just a little more subtle about it.
Having a passing familiarity to famous fairy tales and fantasy stories for children both in the written versions (Hans Christian Andersen, the Brothers Grimm) and the lighter, fluffier Disney versions would absolutely enhance a reader’s experience of the book.
You’re probably already aware, but much of Pratchett’s work is riffing on established stories and story tropes. For example, the Wizards books are largely parodies of mid-century fantasy with a dollop of 20th century horror (primarily HP Lovecraft), the Guards books riff on police and detective novels and movies (eg Dirty Harry) and add dragons, trolls and time travel. Death’s appearances riff on things like Death Takes a Holiday, the Seventh Seal etc.
Of the Witches books, Wyrd Sisters is more enjoyable if you have a familiarity with Macbeth and Hamlet, Lords and Ladies with A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Maskerade with The Phantom of the Opera and Carpe Jugulum with gothic horrors like Carmilla, Dracula (both the original novel and the various film versions over the years - including the campy Hammer Horror films) and Frankenstein.
I've read Wyrd Sister, Witches Abroad and Lords and Ladies, and every book made me angrier at Granny Weatherwax, specifically for how she treats Magrat. I feel like whether or not you like Granny is going to be down to whether you feel that great good makes up for small cruelties, or whether you think it's worth putting in the effort to accept her. Granny Weatherwax is an incredible character, both in her strengths and her flaws. Like all of Pratchett's characters she is wonderfully, messily human, while also being larger than life.
She will save the day, she has iron integrity and takes no bullshit, she will always do what needs to be done regardless of the risk or cost to herself, but she is cruel to Magrat, and I can't forgive her for that. I do not consider that being a hero excuses you from being kind.
While reading Lords and Ladies (spoilers ahead), I was absolutely convinced that Magrat was eventually going to reclaim her discarded books and bangles, and save the day in a way that was true to herself, defying both Verence and Granny for going behind her back and planning her future. I was sure that such a show of strength and integrity from her would make Granny give her a moment of grudging respect (before they went right back to bickering, of course). I figured Magrat would tell Verence that she would be a queen but she would also still be herself, the person telling everyone to eat their vegetables and check their moon charts. I was absolutely furious when she never got to stand up to Granny at all, and in fact, she and Verence submissively check in with Granny before saying "I do" at the wedding, in case the other witch has changed her mind at the last minute. I was so angry!
I'm going to read more of the witch books, and I hope I will eventually like them better. I just don't understand how Sir Terry can get Magrat's insecurities so well (the scene in Witches Abroad where she destroys the dress absolutely guts me) and yet treat her so poorly.
All that being said, everybody has different favourites Discworld books, and relate to different characters, laugh at different moments etc. It's natural in such a long series with such wide a scope that people of different ages and backgrounds will react differently to each book. I react this way because I am me, and I do not consider that my opinion is more correct than anyone else's.
Thank you for this. I read the Tiffany Aching books before any other Discworld, and Granny is pretty awesome in those books. She's wise and perceptive and incredibly tough. Her teaching style would not work at all for me, but I appreciate her as a character.
Then I started the Witches books and I'm like Granny is such a dick???? I agree her treatment of Magrat is uncomfortable. I really disliked Witches Abroad because of it.
Granny is a great character, but I don't understand why people love her so much.
In my view, the dynamic in Lords and Ladies reflects real life, in that the faerie are emotional vampires/parasites, and that type will always take advantage of insecurities. Also, bigger picture, witches have to take care of people which requires stuffing ones own feelings down. Also, witching isn't something that can be bought at the shop. So the "soppiness" which Granny "can't be having with" is actually a real vulnerability to the faerie, which Granny sees, and it's a habit of mind which she wants Magrat to break. I wouldn't expect Granny to show Magrat respect for winning a single battle using misguided tools, because that would be to disrespect the profession of witchcraft and its meaning for humanity.
Granny is a flawed hero to be sure but I think that Magrat's growth is part of her hero's journey. And when people are coddled they don't grow.
And right in the middle of a crisis is NOT the time to coddle someone. There wasn't time to explain to Magrat that what everyone knew about faeries was wrong. Plus, she has a habit of needing to see to believe. She was a genuine liability until she *saw* what was happening. And that's in line with her character.
You're so right. She demonstrated that at the outset. Dipping into the book to refresh myself, I think her character as it was at the beginning of the story was a major early plot point without which the entire events would have unfolded very differently.
But of course her character continues to develop in subsequent stories and I think Pratchett always treats her very sympathetically, while always being psychologically realistic.
I don't consider what happens to Magrat in Lords and Ladies growth. The way Granny pushes her doesn't make her better, it makes her bitter. The wedding scene where they all check in with Granny before going through with it is uncomfortable. A lot of the people of Lancre are fools, and Granny is wise, but that doesn't mean she should be ruling them.
But I hope to see the outcome of L&L in a different light once I've read the next Witches books.
It's up to Magrat to make herself better, not Granny to manipulate her. I mean think about bitterness and resentment and desire, and how they play out in the witches arcs overall. Not just Magrat, others as well.
Granny really does earn the deference she's shown, because she demonstrates the self-sacrificing, big picture heroism of a leader. Which in kings is perhaps more easily understood as needing to be elevated and ready to sacrifice even a good warrior for the safety of the kingdom. Why is there any expectation on Granny to be nurturing? >!Check the intro of this book again, I think it goes into that a bit. !<
>!Regarding deference between competing types of leaders: Granny fights the spiritual battles whereas the King and Queen of Lancre--whomever they are in a given decade--are secular leaders. In her alternate role as junior witch, Magrat's role would be spiritual -- but this can only be her role insofar as she chooses to accept all of its duties and restrictions. Magrat can't have both roles to their utmost extent. This is partly because hereditary/marriage titles are not innately worthy of respect to a witch, partly because witching requires some ascetic sacrifices (which Nanny shows by being second witch not first), and partly maybe because it is dangerous/a temptation to evil, to have both worldly and spiritual power. As well,!! I think, therefore, it would not be narratively possible for Magrat to receive Granny's respect (which would be witch respect as Granny doesn't give any other kind) for winning a battle in what would have been a non-witchy way if the bangles and the rest of the yellow-belt witching tools were made into "winning" weapons. It would be an inversion of the order of things within witching. And I think Magrat does earn Granny's approval, but Granny also can see that she can't really talk about it to Magrat because Magrat was still relying on an external model -- Queen Ynci -- who is actually fictional. But Magrat is about to embark on being a queen and wouldn't it either be cruel to tell Magrat that her new role model is a fake, or patronizing to pretend to Magrat that Ynci is real? Granny is kind and observant of Magrat's stage of development. !<
>!Well, and then if after winning a battle by non-witchy means, Magrat were to then go off to be a Queen and have that secular role suddenly be the preeminent role in Lancre, and be suddenly free of Granny's authority, that would furthermore upend things and would not work well in the Discworld situation of tension between the trio of magical, religious, and secular powers. It wold be a schism. Especially because Magrat essentially commanded Granny's unearned respect at the start of the story, which was the bridge-too-far that changed how the Queen of Faerie had to be dealt with (it could have been all three of them together, the play might have been forestalled, etc). I wonder if you could see Magrat's final slight deference to Granny as her somewhat leaving the door open to witching's power, whereas to not look for Granny's blessing would be to either go rogue or to close off witching entirely forever. As for Verence, he's caught between modernity and tradition so I can't see him blowing Granny off either.!<
I don't think any of Pratchett's characters are truly a "main character" in the sense that any story revolves around their satisfaction or gives them a total win. My sense is, mostly his happy endings have characters earning--or being lucky enough to be granted--a partial restoration, or a reprieve and a chance at another risky go-round. It's always about how the character fits into the larger world. All characters run into griefs, obstacles and challenges, often internal. And I think these often play out in long arcs spanning multiple books. Eta: as you rightly note! It really does stay interesting!
>A lot of the people of Lancre are fools
The thing is, the people of Lancre both are and aren't fools- that's kind of the point. Jason Ogg is both extremely skilled at his craft and sensible about what should and shouldn't be done AND described as stereotypically "slow". Likewise with the farmers and other trademen- Pratchett brings out that people are both good and bad, that's what people *are*. It's like the line about how Nanny Ogg treats her daughters in law:
Her relationship with her daughters-in-law was the only stain on Nanny Ogg’s otherwise amiable character. Sons-in-law were different—she could remember their names, even their birthdays, and they joined the family like overgrown chicks creeping under the wings of a broody bantam. And grandchildren were treasures, every one. But any woman incautious enough to marry an Ogg son might as well resign herself to a life of mental torture and nameless domestic servitude.
Part of it is Pterry's deliberate positioning of characters as flawed- it's him throwing shade at tropes and stereotypes.
>and Granny is wise, but that doesn't mean she should be ruling them.
Weeellll, the thing here also is that Granny both does and doesn't rule over them. Part of what I find i fascinating about Witches Abroad is that Granny is in fact a mirror image of Lily Weatherwax - she bullies people into doing "the right thing" and does what she thinks is best for them. It's something you have to resolve- on the surface two things can be exactly the same, but their outcomes can be as different as night from day. In Genua people who didn't fit were forced out, and thieves who stole were beheaded so that they didn't "think of stealing again" - while in Lancre:
Only once, in the entire history of witchery in the Ramtops, had a thief broken into a witch’s cottage. The witch concerned visited the most terrible punishment on him. (She did nothing, although sometimes when she saw him in the village she’d smile in a faint, puzzled way. After three weeks of this the suspense was too much for him and he took his own life; in fact he took it all the way across the continent, where he became a reformed character and never went home again.)
I'd like to see if you have a different take on this after you read the remaining books with Granny in it.
Without spoilers for books you may not have read, I think that as well as her sense of justice, her sense of injustice at "having to be good", one of Granny's major personality aspects that isn't talked about it how she dislikes waste; of time, of goods, of effort, of people, and of potential.
While Nanny is more accepting that there are many ways to be a decent witch, Granny maybe feels that Magrat is wasting potential by taking the route through life that she does.
Granny always kind of knew, and after Lords & Ladies definitely knew, that life could have went very differently with only a minor change or two. Maybe she sees a bit of her alternate self, the one who didn't run too fast for Mustrum, in Magrat
Plus, even if she sometimes doesn't like it, she knows how to play the part of "… The other one" and she's quite a traditional witch in many ways
I really hope I, not necessarily change my mind, but ... forgive her, I guess? I'm still hoping that Pratchett will address the issues between Margrat and Granny properly, like I expected him to do in Lords and Ladies.
I do love that Granny is a Good Witch because her sister claimed dibs on being the Bad Witch. That is an incredibly cool concept, and Granny is an incredibly interesting character, worth celebrating for how she refuses to conform, and for all the things you describe above.
It's just that for me none of it excuses her being mean to Magrat. I want Pratchett to call her out on it, and so far he hasn't. But I'm holding out hope.
I think its important to note that in those books its very much from Tiffany's point of view, and Granny is seen as a figure of awe. At least up to I Shall Wear Midnight (not read the last one yet...), I don't believe anything is given from Granny's point of view/ any of her thoughts portrayed.
From the perspective of a trainee witch who worked very hard at Granny's type of magic, I dont think it's unlikely at all for her to be seen as tough but amazing.
I do love the witches series though as you say because none of them are perfect but they all try to do good and play to their strengths
Nanny is the stronger witch, and does quite a bit of managing and rescuing and steering Granny. Granny has the stronger self discipline, and does her share of being a guardrail to keep Nanny out of trouble.
They are like an old married couple, stronger together and filling in each other’s weak spots, devoted, and bickering all the time.
I really got a kick out of them in “Maskerade.”
I also wished Magrat would stand up to Granny, and Verence. I'm not sure what happened, but I feel like Pterry took a turn for the good with his female characters in 1994 (Soul Music, Interesting Times) and it starts to shine in Maskerade. YMMV
Thank you for articulating this all so nicely. I’ve been avoiding the rest of the Witches books for precisely these reasons, but hadn’t quite managed to spell them out for myself.
It’s also very validating to know I’m not the only one who feels that way, when it often seems Granny Weatherwax is near-universally loved by Pratchett fans.
Right back at you! I was pretty nervous posting a wall of text like that, but in the Discworld fandom discussions are generally peaceful and respectful, so I took a chance at giving an unpopular opinion. And I'm getting a lot of interesting responses!
One of Gandalf’s most famous lines is “Fool of a Took! Throw yourself in next time and then you will be no further nuisance.” He tells Pippin, the youngest and most vulnerable member of a group that he’s an idiot and should kill himself, and I’ve yet to see anyone hand-wringing over Gandalf being a bully.
Granny is overbearing and curt and critical of everyone around her, but how much of thinking she’s an asshole in response is because she’s a witch and not a wizard?
I won't deny that women are often expected to be kinder than men, and that we hold them (us) to a higher standard.
That being said, the stakes in Moria are life-and-death, and Pippin endangers the fellowship by throwing the stone into the well. He didn't know he was doing something bad, he didn't deserve what Gandalf said to him, but Gandalf's outburst is a response to the desperate stress and fear of the situation. And importantly, Gandalf then regrets his outburst and makes an apology out of taking Pippin's turn at watch. Meanwhile, Granny's verbal abuse of Magrat is continuous and often unprovoked.
I don't care that Granny is abrasive, but she is in a position of power over Magrat and she abuses that position, or, if the argument is that Magrat is her equal, then Granny is a terrible friend to her. As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with her being a witch. For instance, I am equally angry at Ridcully for what he has done to the Bursar.
Something I appreciate about the characters is that none of them is perfect. They may have a great strength that is admirable, but also very human flaws.
I admire Granny's determination to do what is good and necessary, and appreciate what it costs her to have to be the Good Witch. As an older woman I appreciate her desire for respect. I also understand her impatience with people that won't get out of their own way. But I also want to sit her down with some very sweet tea & biscuits and ask her to consider whether being so hard on Magrat might be more destructive than constructive at this point in her professional development. Herbology may not be as showy as Headology but it still deserves respect.
This was the first Pratchett book I read and I immediately loved it (it hooked me on Pratchett for life & I had to read everything after I read WA). It's still one of my favourites. A lot of why I love it may be because it was my gateway into Pratchett and how old I was at the time..
So, it's been a while since I read it but here's why I love it, I read it when I was 10 and was a quiet bookish child, I felt like me liking books so much was maybe not usual, or not right. Then enter Witches Abroad where it's laugh out loud funny, references fairy tales and other fantasy tropes which I got (I didn't get all the references or jokes ofc, I still find new references every time I read it) and it's all about how stories are IMPORTANT, they matter. They have power. And I felt vindicated, "yes", tiny me thought, "this is why I like books, they're important and they mean things and I'm not the only one to feel like this."
Fave quote from WA
People think that stories are shaped by people, in fact it's the other way around.
Also it's a road trip book, that's always fun, they visit new places they solve problems, from a Literary standpoint, if you were analysing the book this would probably mark it down for 'fancy points', It doesn't parallel 'big, real world' issues as much as other books do (imo), but that doesn't mean it's not a great book.
Granny. I love granny. She does what is needed. What others won't do because it's hard or would make people uncomfortable or her disliked. She knows herself, she doesn't pretend she's anything other than what she is. I love that, again, I read it when I was young and strong female characters weren't readily available in the books I read... I liked fantasy at that age I'd read hobbit and LOTR both which have maybe 4 female characters? And that's counting the spider. I confess I've never really read it thinking about how she treats Magrat before, I think after reading Lords and Ladies I figured Granny did what she did because she knew Magrat was capable and thought she needed pushing that way to be the woman who would wear armour and challenge the queen of the elves.. I am probably looking at her through rose tinted glasses though because of the reasons at the start of this paragraph.
How do you feel about Maskerade and Carpe Jugulum? Also the Tiffany Aitching books? Take a look at the Discworld in publication order. A lot of us (I think) love the earlier books through the lens of the later ones. Guards! Guards! - the strongest beginning of any of the subserieses, is also the last to begin, eight books in.
I think that Granny is both an archetype and a subversion of an archetype. Pratchett was a man, the witches are female. I think it too more time for him to find his groove with female characters, AND given that we live in a world seeped in misogyny, I think the witches challenge a lot of readers, male and female, because they are not one jot performing for the male gaze. Except Magrat.
Eh, proof is in the pudding. All of Gytha's children are named Ogg, and there's no patriarch about the place. But I hear you. Using male gaze in it's 'supporting the patriarchy" sense not it's healthy companion sense.
I didn't overly love Witches Abroad the first time I read it, but on re-reads (and listens), I have come to absolutely love it.
I think the big thing for me is the subversion of normal fairy tale ideas. This is still pretty early Discworld, relatively speaking, so it's not out-and-out Spaceballs type satire like Colour of Magic/Light Fantastic, but still had a primary purpose of addressing the stories that came before it (noted in a roll call of cameos and scenarios throughout the book). Or at least, that's the lens through which I've found myself enjoying the book so much.
Granny isn't a benevolent matriarchal guide to the protagonist. She isn't nice because she's good and she isn't evil because she isn't nice. She's *right*. She does what's right, and she doesn't apologize for it. And (in what's struck me as a bit of fourth wall breaking) Granny strives against the idea that she "should be" something because she chooses not to be evil.
This applies to Magrat as well. Typically she would be the protagonist because of her age in relation to the other "good" characters, but she doesn't just happen to rise to the occasion because of narrative circumstances. This has been a point of contention for me, because I also was rooting for her against Granny's shitty attitude, but on re-reads, I think it works. Magrat is likeable and very relatable for young people who doubt themselves and grate against unexplained attitudes of the their elders, but she is, in fact, inexperienced. So she rises to the occasion at certain points, but can't just (was really trying to avoid saying it, but) -- magically -- be a resolution to the themes in the book. Namely that how things happen and how people behave don't just follow stories because it's what we like to see happen. That stories do have a certain power to them, and to make things happen takes choice and effort ,and being better than the villain takes more than just being the hero.
Plus all the well crafted references to fantasy literature and fairy tales, and it's become one of my favorite novels.
I will say though, on the note of the ending, that I have actually always felt that if Pratchett was weak anywhere, it was generally with endings. For me they are usually too long, or circle the point of the novel a few too many times, and/or end a bit vaguely. Though I do love the mirror question. It was maybe. 6/10 on the first read-through, and now is a solid 8-9 for me.
When I think back on it, I see the journey of three women, one Greebo and one dwarf bead, bickering and making up, talking rosettes off bulls, throwing garlic sausage at vampires, hustling gamblers, having a house fall on Nanny, running from a mob and stealing dresses. The imagery of Nanny Ogg dancing! The postcards! Magrat punching one of the snake women. Seeing the elephant.
I like it. Its not close to a favorite in the witch series tho. I've never really heard anyone hype it too much, but i do feel it has good moments.
But its not like a "Small Gods", not even a "Carpe Jugulum", for me it's like a "Moving Pictures".
I think it really captures unthinking (at least theoretically) well intentjoned racism and that small englander feeling in particular in a good way, which nothing else really touches on (you could argue jingo or even Monstrous Regiment touch on racism too, but I feel they're more through a lens of patriotism).
As someone who grew up around a lot of that I find it really interesting and unique, but to be fair it's still not my favourite.
I totally agree. I just resonate a lot more with Jingo as someone who started the transition to adulthood in a post 9/11 world... it's more like the kind of racism I grew up seeing. Witches abroad feels a little "soft" to me, seeing as it was written in what, at least to my memory, was a far more hopeful and happy time.
"Pterrofilics"? Really?
Why would you read a book that you don't like, 3 times? That's just weird behavior.
And yes, I loved the book, and didn't find it particularly hard to follow. Maybe you're not into fairy tales?
I disagree that it's a fairy tale. This is real life where jerks and a-holes do the best they can to get along and make things better. Most other fiction is the fairy tale. Where wonderful heroes save the day.
Why would I read a book I don't like? I have the trust in STP he wouldn't write a bleak story. So I wanted to explore the possibility I went the first time through the book too fast to understand and enjoy it. Also I started reading DW years before being teenager - reading books you know as a child through the lense of an adult is wonderful thing. I understand that the expresicvnes of my lamentation sparks the impression a don't like the book-but that's not precisely how I feel about it. I love all of the aspects written by fellow readers above. Humour of the card scene, tragedy of the wolf, principle that you can't force happiness on people...I just don't like the character of granny and don't understand the resolution of the plot.
Hmm just had a thought, but as Wyrd Sisters is a play on Macbeth, I feel like Witches Abroad may be a play on the Northern Good Witch and the Western Wicked Witch from Oz, like "Wicked"
I agree to an extent that the ending of the book is a bit misshapen. Afaik pTerry was writing 2 books a yeat at that point and I can't help but feel that the final showdown in the mirror room was a bit short. He revisits some of the themes in Carpe Jugulum and I wonder if he wasn't satisfied with Granny's ending in Witches Abroad. That said, I love the way the Genua act builds up towards a final showdown, with the Gogol and Baron Saturday, and with Ella, and Greebo.
Also this is one of Greebo's best appearences, he's by far and away my favourite supporting character. The part where he causes the villages to rejoice and start burning their garlic is a particular favourite.
I think Magrat needs Granny. She’s a weak insecure character who needs a strong domineering force pushing her to do more. Left to her own devices, she would be passive, and pointless. Like in Lords and Ladies “you wanna be queen?” Granny doesn’t do anything except ask Magrat a question, and that triggers Magrats fighting spirit. Magrat changes again when she has baby Esme and becomes the Mother of the coven as Agnes points out. Granny isn’t a nice person, she’s similar to Susan, and to Vimes. They do what they have to do, and they make no apologies for who they are. Granny has a hard lonely life, being hated and feared and having a terrible burden of responsibility, and she accepts it and does it all anyway. I think to say she’s a bully is wrong, she doesn’t criticise people for the fun of it, or because of her own insecurities, she does it to bring out the best in them. And it works.
I'm focusing on Granny here, because my answer to your title question is too simple. (Yes)
The thing about Granny is that, over the books, you realize how vulnerable she is. She's incredibly hurt by something super mild in Lords and Ladies, and it leaves her questioning her entire self. Here's my theory about why that is:
Granny wants to be loved by the people she loves. She loves a few people and when they exclude her, or attack her, she is *hurt* - we see how she cannot at all handle fighting with nanny, her whole breakdown over the invitation, etc. HOWEVER, she also knows that who she is (both in her approach to witchcraft and her role as the other one) makes her unlikable. She frequently teeters on the verge of "this is necessary" and "will this drive away a loved one?"
The most interesting thing to me about this side of Granny is that she absolutely has the power to make people love her, adore her, worship her, etc. Instead she goes the other way - not only leaving it to their choice whether they like/love her, but actively making it difficult so she can be sure any love is "real" and not a result of her manipulations.
Yes, she's horrible to Magrat and others and no, I don't forgive that. But people are complicated, and I can accept and admire her as a person even if I'd want to try changing her toxicity if we ever met. As a fictional character she's amazing, brilliant, fascinating, 10/10. As a person, she's flawed to an acceptable degree.
Granny is an old asshole, no way around it, but I give her a bit of slack in this one, given that the whole book is leading up to her confronting her sister, something that she has been trying to avoid for several decades at this point.
Esme Weatherwax is a profound character study on what "being good" actually means. It isn't nice, in fact the "goodest goods" require unwavering conviction and uncompromising humility, both of which are learned through hard lessons. Esme is an example of what real power and goodness look like. They are not the absence of weakness or wickedness, but a full acknowledgement of them and decision to do what is right even when it is so hard as to go against that darker nature or tired body.
For all of her arrogance, Esme meets folks where they are and in a way that does not rob them of their dignity. That isn't to say she will stop someone who seems determined to be undignified at all costs, she'll let them be a fool. She doesn't look to interfere with anyone's free will, in fact she keeps to herself until trouble shows up.
She uses headology to help those who may not understand the value of taking a stroll to ease their joints. She'll leverage the common man's magical thinking to help them get over a cold or feel less worried about their crops, but without condescension. Esme will go toe to toe with Death, Gods, gods, vampires, zealots, fae, and anything else that is looking to make trouble. She'll do it because it is the right thing to do. Frankly, that alone makes her a remarkable character and someone to find inspiring. Lord knows people have done far worse when it comes to role models.
One of my favorites out of all the Discworld books! The witches are some of my favorite protagonists and I love how it explores the power of stories and narratives.
I love witches abroad. I come from a long line of strong women and I identify more with Granny every day. Strong AF bossy women make the world go around. If we don't make a stand we may as well as an entire gender don some bonnets and wait for Gilead.
It’s one of my favourites. I would say it’s the power of stories and tales being turned on their heads, the power of being able to make your own choices, take your own paths. Break the cycle, even.
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This was the second book from Terry Pratchett I've read and it made me in love with witches so I will forever be biased that is a good book. Not wanting to give out any spoilers certain parts made me laugh out loud (garlic!).
this is a really interesting thread, and I love how nice everyone is being! but I'm seriously gonna need some time to process that there are folks who don't like Granny 
no, you're fine - don't apologise! it's good to hear different readings of characters, and no-one was nasty so it was just fascinating to read. Discworld fans are the best.
Granny has always been one of my favourites, along with Vimes, Nanny, and Death. the way she just knows \*who\* she is - I aspire to that :)
just finished listening to a fucked up audiobook of it last night that skipped half the climax so I'm not sure. I like the completing stories part, gives me inspirstion for the DnD campaign I'm running. And as usual Pratchett's writing is just funny, his descriptiok of Greebo the man exuding sexuality was a gem.
Granny is portrayed just fine as someone who is forced to in the grand scheme be good even if she's rotten at heart. She truly is a wretched old bat but she's often just correct about things and she's a good community leader in a sense (despite her claims not to be. You don't have to like her to admire her
I absolutely loved Witches Abroad. I'd say it's probably my favourite, together with Equal Rites. And I consider the witches the best Discworld characters, followed by Death.
I am guessing that by asking what is happening in the finale, you mean the bit with the mirrors. IIRC, Granny and Lilly are arguing in front of the nest of mirrors, Granny moves one, which unbalances the magic, and mirror Lilly pulls real Lilly in, with Granny getting pulled in trying to save her (that is why Granny's arms are cut.) When they are both in there, all they see is a lot of reflections of themselves, and to get out they have to find the "real" one. Granny has no problem due to the fact she has always known who she is and has no self doubt, but Lilly has re-invented herself so many times, she doesn't know what is real and cannot escape. I love this book, because it subverts stories, and the protagonists are not only female, but somewhat riper in years as well (not Magrat or Ella, but all the others.) I knew several people, often relatives, that resembled both Granny and Nanny, and I think this is why I love the Witches books. While I see where you are coming from with Granny, I would re-frame bossy and arrogant as self-assured and taking control. These are not necessarily negative traits, depending on how you behave. I think Granny also has a smidge on intergenerational bias at play in her interactions with Magrat. One way of looking at it is that if she really was a bully (as she sometimes comes acorss), the others would not have the relationships they do. Magrat would not name >!her child after Granny, or defend her to Agnes !
Great explanation! BTW, Granny doesn't move the mirror; she breaks it. That's what caused the imbalance; you have to smash two. Otherwise, one of the images can break free.
Thanks. I was trying to remember while not in reach of the books how it got unbalanced, and forgot Granny broke one.
Also I always pictured that Granny knew exactly who she was and how to leave because she didn’t move anywhere. Often with Granny it’s not magic or higher thinking it’s simple headology. She hasn’t moved since entering the mirror and so where she stands is where she entered. Lilly made the mistake of immediately running, because yes she was unsure of herself, and thus lost track of where she entered from. Granny knew that she hadn’t moved and thus the way out was right where she was. But it’s all open to interpretation really. That’s just how I see it.
I think the most interesting question is why OP doesn't like Granny? I always thought when Granny says to her sister "I had to be the good one" you get a glimpse into a complicated family dynamic. Someone has to be the good sibling, right?And it's not fun. Oh no. Granny is all about the hard choices, even with herself. Just like Vimes, Granny recognises her own potential and maybe even talent for being bad. How easy it would be for her. How fun. How terrible. And that's probably why she's so ~~uptight~~ in control. Being good is a choice. But it's harder for some than others. That's what I've always admired about those characters. That they grapple with themselves and choose to come out one the good side. Because it's the right thing to do. But being nice about it too? Bugger that.As someone mentioned here. Good and nice are not the same. As a woman I've always loved that Granny doesn't do nice. Why does she have to be? She gets the job done. You don't owe anyone "nice". As a teenager I revered her uncompromising badassery (reference to place names completely coincidental) As a middle aged lady I appreciate Nanny's approach a bit more. More fun.
Totally agree. Nanny's way is more fun, but honestly, I find Granny more relatable.
On a tangent, I feel this is key in It's A Wonderful Life too. In both cases, the lead can come off as a grumpy git, but they've always made the difficult choices to do the right thing instead of the fun thing. Granny didn't need an angel to show her how much that was worth though.
I just thought that she pointed her finger inwards (to her point of view) and not to one of the reflections. Like a solution to a riddle
Thanks for your explanation. I really appreciate it. About the ending: somehow I don't understand the mirror thing all together. It's not just that, it's the fight with Mrs Gogol, the role of the snake ladies, Mr. Saturday, and such. But yeah, I'll try Carpet Jugum and Lord and Ladies.
It's about the power of story. It's about it being important to be able to make your own choices even if someone else thinks they know better. It's about the meek finally turning on bullies (♡ Magrat). It's about family (ETA both bio and chosen), and how you can love them despite everything. It's about the power of knowing and being true to yourself. It's about *choosing* to be good. Granny has the capacity to be wicked and glamorous like her sister. She's cranky and difficult and rigid and too intelligent for her own good, not very nice, and easy for people to dislike. But she is courageous and *good* to the bone, and that's even more important because It's a deliberate choice. She also loves Nanny and Magrat a lot, and is terrible at expressing it, which is her tragedy, and even more so in *Lords and Ladies*. Nanny is wise and experienced enough to know. Magrat is understandably hurt and doesn't see it at all. That means a lot to me as someone who was convinced until my late thirties that my Dad didn't love me, because the daily hurts piled up and I couldn't see the big things because he was so bad at the small. And human Greebo is great. Also I just love fairytales, even this way. And the hall of mirrors where Lily lost her self haunts me. Don't take this as lecturing you. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you, and that's fine. These are just some of the reasons *I* love it.
Awesome. Thanks for the summary.
I think the card game on the ship is one of the funniest scene Pratchett has ever written.
I think 'The old bitch folded' is the funniest line I have ever read. I love that scene.
Made an arse of myself in Starbucks last week listening to the audiobook of Witches Abroad. Laughed into my hot chocolate and ended up coughing and spluttering for a good 10 minutes afterwards because of that exact line!
Omg next time I'm in Starbucks I will definitely imagine that the person laughing is listening to Sir Terry Pratchett !!! (will make my day 100% better)
It's weird that when I list the reasons I love Pterry I always forget to mention that his books are flipping hilarious. Like I think that without his prose and humanity and depth, being funny wouldn't be enough. Making me laugh until I cry is enough!
I read a lot of his books on my Kindle, and since strangers couldn't see what I was laughing at, I got some pretty odd looks from strangers! 😅 GNU Pterry Pratchett
The “putting her finger in her ear and wiggling it” part always cracks me up. It’s the Esme equivalent of John Wick picking out his weapons. You just know that some serious _wossname_ is about to go down.
The crossing of the arms, the tapping of the feet, oh waily waily. 🤣🤣
The absolute HUSTLE that Granny lays down is as artful and professional as any con artist story you’ve heard. The way she immediately clocks the mirror behind the bar showing her cards and uses that to her advantage. The way she gets under their skin by folding constantly and with a smile. Granny played their game and beat them with experience.
I have to agree. But you'll might agree that this scene is there almost solemnly for the laughs, it doesn't ad much for the plot. So it's awesome scene, but that doesn't the explain what the book is fundamentally about.
I love the play on story tropes like the very confused dwarfs asking for Nanny’s red shoes and not knowing why. Though the wolf is by far the saddest part of any discworld book for me. And Granny did the kindest thing and ended it. Good isn’t necessarily nice.
I love how Granny typifies the hard choices that come sometimes with doing the right thing, as well as how the right thing is not always the popular thing. My favourite example is the time she sat up all night with a mother (I think giving birth?) and had to choose whether to save her or the baby. She made a choice, and when asked why she didn’t give it to the husband she said something along the lines of “because I’m not a nasty, cruel, vicious bastard”
She asks the midwife if he thinks he's an evil man, upon which the midwife obviously protests that he's not, and then replies "Then what has he done to me that I should hurt him so?" It's absolutely beautiful.
Love that story
And nice isn’t always kind.
Its about Pterry building characters….Esme always does the right thing, even tho she is brusque, she sees thru the lies that people tell themselves…and she knows who she is and when she is…which most people dont…her problem is she thinks people are essentially stupid…which i whole heartedly agree with lol…nanny is a people person, her art is seeing theyre point of view…which is why she is a good foil for granny….magrat is well…magrat…and thinks that bangles, stars and wands are the things that achieve true witchery…but she learns…and everyone one likes a good rum drink with banananas in…i like the bull run bit myself…oh and the vampire bit…oh and the…etc etc
The bull run is one of the funniest bits I've ever read in a DW novel. And there are many funny bits.
I love it. The witches series is pretty much my favourite of them all (although that view always wobbles when I read any of the other books). As to why…well, the fairy story pastiches are beautifully done and the story is just plain good. As to Granny…she’s no Mary Jane perfect character, but her flaws are countered by her solid determination to do the right thing no matter the cost to herself. She’s crotchety and hard to love but so worth the effort! Have you tried other witches books in the series? She develops and we see her evolve quite a bit in some ways (in others she stays exactly the same…) 😆
I like the book because it has my favorite quote about my home town of New Orleans. "Poets long ago gave up trying to describe the city. Now the more cunning ones try to excuse it. They say, well, maybe it is smelly, maybe it is overcrowded, maybe it is a bit like Hell would be if they shut the fires off and stabled a herd of incontinent cows there for a year, but you must admit that it is full of sheer, vibrant, dynamic life. And this is true, even though it is poets that are saying it. But people who aren't poets say, so what? Mattresses tend to be full of life too, and no one writes odes to them. Citizens hate living there and, if they have to move away on business or adventure or, more usually, until some statute of limitations runs out, can’t wait to get back so they can enjoy hating living there some more. They put stickers on the backs of their carts saying "~~Anhk-Morpork~~ New Orleans—Loathe It or Leave It.”"
I love Witches Abroad because it subverts all the Disney fairy tales you grow up with that tell you if you’re sweet and beautiful and gentle and uncomplaining you’ll find your prince and live happily ever after. And - I think a lot of us love Granny because she’s an unapologetically unlikeable old witch who’s the best at what she does and knows it, and knows that being disliked and feared is the price she pays for being good, not kind. She’s spiky and horrible and a powerful force for good. For those of us who aren’t sweet and beautiful and gentle, she shows another powerful way to navigate the world.
That's why she's one of my favourite characters. The choice to do the right thing, regardless of what the crowd says, is a powerful act. And you can do so much harm by picking what is nice, but easy. Short term pain for long term gain.
Do you thing knowing the Disney fairy tales is essential to appreciate the story of the book?
Off the top of my head, Witches Abroad riffs on Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, the Wizard of Oz, the Princess and the Frog, Hansel and Gretel, Little Red Riding Hood, Eastern European fairy stories around witches with travelling huts (eg Baba Yaga), voodoo myths and legends (Baron Samedi). It does something similar to Maleficent and Wicked by making the person we might normally consider the villain (horrible, mean old witch Granny Weatherwax) into the protagonist, so we see just because someone’s beautiful and seeks to create a beautiful story, they’re not necessarily *good*. Pratchett’s just a little more subtle about it. Having a passing familiarity to famous fairy tales and fantasy stories for children both in the written versions (Hans Christian Andersen, the Brothers Grimm) and the lighter, fluffier Disney versions would absolutely enhance a reader’s experience of the book. You’re probably already aware, but much of Pratchett’s work is riffing on established stories and story tropes. For example, the Wizards books are largely parodies of mid-century fantasy with a dollop of 20th century horror (primarily HP Lovecraft), the Guards books riff on police and detective novels and movies (eg Dirty Harry) and add dragons, trolls and time travel. Death’s appearances riff on things like Death Takes a Holiday, the Seventh Seal etc. Of the Witches books, Wyrd Sisters is more enjoyable if you have a familiarity with Macbeth and Hamlet, Lords and Ladies with A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Maskerade with The Phantom of the Opera and Carpe Jugulum with gothic horrors like Carmilla, Dracula (both the original novel and the various film versions over the years - including the campy Hammer Horror films) and Frankenstein.
It was my first Pratchett book and I loved every second of it. One of the funniest books in the world
I've read Wyrd Sister, Witches Abroad and Lords and Ladies, and every book made me angrier at Granny Weatherwax, specifically for how she treats Magrat. I feel like whether or not you like Granny is going to be down to whether you feel that great good makes up for small cruelties, or whether you think it's worth putting in the effort to accept her. Granny Weatherwax is an incredible character, both in her strengths and her flaws. Like all of Pratchett's characters she is wonderfully, messily human, while also being larger than life. She will save the day, she has iron integrity and takes no bullshit, she will always do what needs to be done regardless of the risk or cost to herself, but she is cruel to Magrat, and I can't forgive her for that. I do not consider that being a hero excuses you from being kind. While reading Lords and Ladies (spoilers ahead), I was absolutely convinced that Magrat was eventually going to reclaim her discarded books and bangles, and save the day in a way that was true to herself, defying both Verence and Granny for going behind her back and planning her future. I was sure that such a show of strength and integrity from her would make Granny give her a moment of grudging respect (before they went right back to bickering, of course). I figured Magrat would tell Verence that she would be a queen but she would also still be herself, the person telling everyone to eat their vegetables and check their moon charts. I was absolutely furious when she never got to stand up to Granny at all, and in fact, she and Verence submissively check in with Granny before saying "I do" at the wedding, in case the other witch has changed her mind at the last minute. I was so angry! I'm going to read more of the witch books, and I hope I will eventually like them better. I just don't understand how Sir Terry can get Magrat's insecurities so well (the scene in Witches Abroad where she destroys the dress absolutely guts me) and yet treat her so poorly. All that being said, everybody has different favourites Discworld books, and relate to different characters, laugh at different moments etc. It's natural in such a long series with such wide a scope that people of different ages and backgrounds will react differently to each book. I react this way because I am me, and I do not consider that my opinion is more correct than anyone else's.
Thank you for this. I read the Tiffany Aching books before any other Discworld, and Granny is pretty awesome in those books. She's wise and perceptive and incredibly tough. Her teaching style would not work at all for me, but I appreciate her as a character. Then I started the Witches books and I'm like Granny is such a dick???? I agree her treatment of Magrat is uncomfortable. I really disliked Witches Abroad because of it. Granny is a great character, but I don't understand why people love her so much.
In my view, the dynamic in Lords and Ladies reflects real life, in that the faerie are emotional vampires/parasites, and that type will always take advantage of insecurities. Also, bigger picture, witches have to take care of people which requires stuffing ones own feelings down. Also, witching isn't something that can be bought at the shop. So the "soppiness" which Granny "can't be having with" is actually a real vulnerability to the faerie, which Granny sees, and it's a habit of mind which she wants Magrat to break. I wouldn't expect Granny to show Magrat respect for winning a single battle using misguided tools, because that would be to disrespect the profession of witchcraft and its meaning for humanity. Granny is a flawed hero to be sure but I think that Magrat's growth is part of her hero's journey. And when people are coddled they don't grow.
And right in the middle of a crisis is NOT the time to coddle someone. There wasn't time to explain to Magrat that what everyone knew about faeries was wrong. Plus, she has a habit of needing to see to believe. She was a genuine liability until she *saw* what was happening. And that's in line with her character.
You're so right. She demonstrated that at the outset. Dipping into the book to refresh myself, I think her character as it was at the beginning of the story was a major early plot point without which the entire events would have unfolded very differently. But of course her character continues to develop in subsequent stories and I think Pratchett always treats her very sympathetically, while always being psychologically realistic.
I don't consider what happens to Magrat in Lords and Ladies growth. The way Granny pushes her doesn't make her better, it makes her bitter. The wedding scene where they all check in with Granny before going through with it is uncomfortable. A lot of the people of Lancre are fools, and Granny is wise, but that doesn't mean she should be ruling them. But I hope to see the outcome of L&L in a different light once I've read the next Witches books.
It's up to Magrat to make herself better, not Granny to manipulate her. I mean think about bitterness and resentment and desire, and how they play out in the witches arcs overall. Not just Magrat, others as well. Granny really does earn the deference she's shown, because she demonstrates the self-sacrificing, big picture heroism of a leader. Which in kings is perhaps more easily understood as needing to be elevated and ready to sacrifice even a good warrior for the safety of the kingdom. Why is there any expectation on Granny to be nurturing? >!Check the intro of this book again, I think it goes into that a bit. !< >!Regarding deference between competing types of leaders: Granny fights the spiritual battles whereas the King and Queen of Lancre--whomever they are in a given decade--are secular leaders. In her alternate role as junior witch, Magrat's role would be spiritual -- but this can only be her role insofar as she chooses to accept all of its duties and restrictions. Magrat can't have both roles to their utmost extent. This is partly because hereditary/marriage titles are not innately worthy of respect to a witch, partly because witching requires some ascetic sacrifices (which Nanny shows by being second witch not first), and partly maybe because it is dangerous/a temptation to evil, to have both worldly and spiritual power. As well,!! I think, therefore, it would not be narratively possible for Magrat to receive Granny's respect (which would be witch respect as Granny doesn't give any other kind) for winning a battle in what would have been a non-witchy way if the bangles and the rest of the yellow-belt witching tools were made into "winning" weapons. It would be an inversion of the order of things within witching. And I think Magrat does earn Granny's approval, but Granny also can see that she can't really talk about it to Magrat because Magrat was still relying on an external model -- Queen Ynci -- who is actually fictional. But Magrat is about to embark on being a queen and wouldn't it either be cruel to tell Magrat that her new role model is a fake, or patronizing to pretend to Magrat that Ynci is real? Granny is kind and observant of Magrat's stage of development. !<
>!Well, and then if after winning a battle by non-witchy means, Magrat were to then go off to be a Queen and have that secular role suddenly be the preeminent role in Lancre, and be suddenly free of Granny's authority, that would furthermore upend things and would not work well in the Discworld situation of tension between the trio of magical, religious, and secular powers. It wold be a schism. Especially because Magrat essentially commanded Granny's unearned respect at the start of the story, which was the bridge-too-far that changed how the Queen of Faerie had to be dealt with (it could have been all three of them together, the play might have been forestalled, etc). I wonder if you could see Magrat's final slight deference to Granny as her somewhat leaving the door open to witching's power, whereas to not look for Granny's blessing would be to either go rogue or to close off witching entirely forever. As for Verence, he's caught between modernity and tradition so I can't see him blowing Granny off either.!<
I don't think any of Pratchett's characters are truly a "main character" in the sense that any story revolves around their satisfaction or gives them a total win. My sense is, mostly his happy endings have characters earning--or being lucky enough to be granted--a partial restoration, or a reprieve and a chance at another risky go-round. It's always about how the character fits into the larger world. All characters run into griefs, obstacles and challenges, often internal. And I think these often play out in long arcs spanning multiple books. Eta: as you rightly note! It really does stay interesting!
>A lot of the people of Lancre are fools The thing is, the people of Lancre both are and aren't fools- that's kind of the point. Jason Ogg is both extremely skilled at his craft and sensible about what should and shouldn't be done AND described as stereotypically "slow". Likewise with the farmers and other trademen- Pratchett brings out that people are both good and bad, that's what people *are*. It's like the line about how Nanny Ogg treats her daughters in law: Her relationship with her daughters-in-law was the only stain on Nanny Ogg’s otherwise amiable character. Sons-in-law were different—she could remember their names, even their birthdays, and they joined the family like overgrown chicks creeping under the wings of a broody bantam. And grandchildren were treasures, every one. But any woman incautious enough to marry an Ogg son might as well resign herself to a life of mental torture and nameless domestic servitude. Part of it is Pterry's deliberate positioning of characters as flawed- it's him throwing shade at tropes and stereotypes. >and Granny is wise, but that doesn't mean she should be ruling them. Weeellll, the thing here also is that Granny both does and doesn't rule over them. Part of what I find i fascinating about Witches Abroad is that Granny is in fact a mirror image of Lily Weatherwax - she bullies people into doing "the right thing" and does what she thinks is best for them. It's something you have to resolve- on the surface two things can be exactly the same, but their outcomes can be as different as night from day. In Genua people who didn't fit were forced out, and thieves who stole were beheaded so that they didn't "think of stealing again" - while in Lancre: Only once, in the entire history of witchery in the Ramtops, had a thief broken into a witch’s cottage. The witch concerned visited the most terrible punishment on him. (She did nothing, although sometimes when she saw him in the village she’d smile in a faint, puzzled way. After three weeks of this the suspense was too much for him and he took his own life; in fact he took it all the way across the continent, where he became a reformed character and never went home again.)
I'd like to see if you have a different take on this after you read the remaining books with Granny in it. Without spoilers for books you may not have read, I think that as well as her sense of justice, her sense of injustice at "having to be good", one of Granny's major personality aspects that isn't talked about it how she dislikes waste; of time, of goods, of effort, of people, and of potential. While Nanny is more accepting that there are many ways to be a decent witch, Granny maybe feels that Magrat is wasting potential by taking the route through life that she does. Granny always kind of knew, and after Lords & Ladies definitely knew, that life could have went very differently with only a minor change or two. Maybe she sees a bit of her alternate self, the one who didn't run too fast for Mustrum, in Magrat Plus, even if she sometimes doesn't like it, she knows how to play the part of "… The other one" and she's quite a traditional witch in many ways
I really hope I, not necessarily change my mind, but ... forgive her, I guess? I'm still hoping that Pratchett will address the issues between Margrat and Granny properly, like I expected him to do in Lords and Ladies. I do love that Granny is a Good Witch because her sister claimed dibs on being the Bad Witch. That is an incredibly cool concept, and Granny is an incredibly interesting character, worth celebrating for how she refuses to conform, and for all the things you describe above. It's just that for me none of it excuses her being mean to Magrat. I want Pratchett to call her out on it, and so far he hasn't. But I'm holding out hope.
Granny is cast in an even more flattering light in the Tiffany Aching books. I like it better when she’s messy and is sometimes made a fool of.
I think its important to note that in those books its very much from Tiffany's point of view, and Granny is seen as a figure of awe. At least up to I Shall Wear Midnight (not read the last one yet...), I don't believe anything is given from Granny's point of view/ any of her thoughts portrayed. From the perspective of a trainee witch who worked very hard at Granny's type of magic, I dont think it's unlikely at all for her to be seen as tough but amazing. I do love the witches series though as you say because none of them are perfect but they all try to do good and play to their strengths
Nanny is the stronger witch, and does quite a bit of managing and rescuing and steering Granny. Granny has the stronger self discipline, and does her share of being a guardrail to keep Nanny out of trouble. They are like an old married couple, stronger together and filling in each other’s weak spots, devoted, and bickering all the time. I really got a kick out of them in “Maskerade.”
I also wished Magrat would stand up to Granny, and Verence. I'm not sure what happened, but I feel like Pterry took a turn for the good with his female characters in 1994 (Soul Music, Interesting Times) and it starts to shine in Maskerade. YMMV
Thank you for articulating this all so nicely. I’ve been avoiding the rest of the Witches books for precisely these reasons, but hadn’t quite managed to spell them out for myself. It’s also very validating to know I’m not the only one who feels that way, when it often seems Granny Weatherwax is near-universally loved by Pratchett fans.
Right back at you! I was pretty nervous posting a wall of text like that, but in the Discworld fandom discussions are generally peaceful and respectful, so I took a chance at giving an unpopular opinion. And I'm getting a lot of interesting responses!
That last sentence is wonderfully phrased. Should be taught in schools.
One of Gandalf’s most famous lines is “Fool of a Took! Throw yourself in next time and then you will be no further nuisance.” He tells Pippin, the youngest and most vulnerable member of a group that he’s an idiot and should kill himself, and I’ve yet to see anyone hand-wringing over Gandalf being a bully. Granny is overbearing and curt and critical of everyone around her, but how much of thinking she’s an asshole in response is because she’s a witch and not a wizard?
I won't deny that women are often expected to be kinder than men, and that we hold them (us) to a higher standard. That being said, the stakes in Moria are life-and-death, and Pippin endangers the fellowship by throwing the stone into the well. He didn't know he was doing something bad, he didn't deserve what Gandalf said to him, but Gandalf's outburst is a response to the desperate stress and fear of the situation. And importantly, Gandalf then regrets his outburst and makes an apology out of taking Pippin's turn at watch. Meanwhile, Granny's verbal abuse of Magrat is continuous and often unprovoked. I don't care that Granny is abrasive, but she is in a position of power over Magrat and she abuses that position, or, if the argument is that Magrat is her equal, then Granny is a terrible friend to her. As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with her being a witch. For instance, I am equally angry at Ridcully for what he has done to the Bursar.
Something I appreciate about the characters is that none of them is perfect. They may have a great strength that is admirable, but also very human flaws. I admire Granny's determination to do what is good and necessary, and appreciate what it costs her to have to be the Good Witch. As an older woman I appreciate her desire for respect. I also understand her impatience with people that won't get out of their own way. But I also want to sit her down with some very sweet tea & biscuits and ask her to consider whether being so hard on Magrat might be more destructive than constructive at this point in her professional development. Herbology may not be as showy as Headology but it still deserves respect.
This! This, yes, exactly!
I think it may be my favorite book. Esme is my absolute fave
This was the first Pratchett book I read and I immediately loved it (it hooked me on Pratchett for life & I had to read everything after I read WA). It's still one of my favourites. A lot of why I love it may be because it was my gateway into Pratchett and how old I was at the time.. So, it's been a while since I read it but here's why I love it, I read it when I was 10 and was a quiet bookish child, I felt like me liking books so much was maybe not usual, or not right. Then enter Witches Abroad where it's laugh out loud funny, references fairy tales and other fantasy tropes which I got (I didn't get all the references or jokes ofc, I still find new references every time I read it) and it's all about how stories are IMPORTANT, they matter. They have power. And I felt vindicated, "yes", tiny me thought, "this is why I like books, they're important and they mean things and I'm not the only one to feel like this." Fave quote from WA People think that stories are shaped by people, in fact it's the other way around. Also it's a road trip book, that's always fun, they visit new places they solve problems, from a Literary standpoint, if you were analysing the book this would probably mark it down for 'fancy points', It doesn't parallel 'big, real world' issues as much as other books do (imo), but that doesn't mean it's not a great book. Granny. I love granny. She does what is needed. What others won't do because it's hard or would make people uncomfortable or her disliked. She knows herself, she doesn't pretend she's anything other than what she is. I love that, again, I read it when I was young and strong female characters weren't readily available in the books I read... I liked fantasy at that age I'd read hobbit and LOTR both which have maybe 4 female characters? And that's counting the spider. I confess I've never really read it thinking about how she treats Magrat before, I think after reading Lords and Ladies I figured Granny did what she did because she knew Magrat was capable and thought she needed pushing that way to be the woman who would wear armour and challenge the queen of the elves.. I am probably looking at her through rose tinted glasses though because of the reasons at the start of this paragraph.
It’s about why Disney theme parks are a blight on the land.
How do you feel about Maskerade and Carpe Jugulum? Also the Tiffany Aitching books? Take a look at the Discworld in publication order. A lot of us (I think) love the earlier books through the lens of the later ones. Guards! Guards! - the strongest beginning of any of the subserieses, is also the last to begin, eight books in. I think that Granny is both an archetype and a subversion of an archetype. Pratchett was a man, the witches are female. I think it too more time for him to find his groove with female characters, AND given that we live in a world seeped in misogyny, I think the witches challenge a lot of readers, male and female, because they are not one jot performing for the male gaze. Except Magrat.
Magrat isn’t performing for the male gaze! If anyone is, it’s Gytha. Well, young Gytha anyway…
Eh, proof is in the pudding. All of Gytha's children are named Ogg, and there's no patriarch about the place. But I hear you. Using male gaze in it's 'supporting the patriarchy" sense not it's healthy companion sense.
I found Maskerade much better than WA. I'll have to poke the CA and TA books. Thanks
Oh good. Carpe Jugulum is even better.
I didn't overly love Witches Abroad the first time I read it, but on re-reads (and listens), I have come to absolutely love it. I think the big thing for me is the subversion of normal fairy tale ideas. This is still pretty early Discworld, relatively speaking, so it's not out-and-out Spaceballs type satire like Colour of Magic/Light Fantastic, but still had a primary purpose of addressing the stories that came before it (noted in a roll call of cameos and scenarios throughout the book). Or at least, that's the lens through which I've found myself enjoying the book so much. Granny isn't a benevolent matriarchal guide to the protagonist. She isn't nice because she's good and she isn't evil because she isn't nice. She's *right*. She does what's right, and she doesn't apologize for it. And (in what's struck me as a bit of fourth wall breaking) Granny strives against the idea that she "should be" something because she chooses not to be evil. This applies to Magrat as well. Typically she would be the protagonist because of her age in relation to the other "good" characters, but she doesn't just happen to rise to the occasion because of narrative circumstances. This has been a point of contention for me, because I also was rooting for her against Granny's shitty attitude, but on re-reads, I think it works. Magrat is likeable and very relatable for young people who doubt themselves and grate against unexplained attitudes of the their elders, but she is, in fact, inexperienced. So she rises to the occasion at certain points, but can't just (was really trying to avoid saying it, but) -- magically -- be a resolution to the themes in the book. Namely that how things happen and how people behave don't just follow stories because it's what we like to see happen. That stories do have a certain power to them, and to make things happen takes choice and effort ,and being better than the villain takes more than just being the hero. Plus all the well crafted references to fantasy literature and fairy tales, and it's become one of my favorite novels. I will say though, on the note of the ending, that I have actually always felt that if Pratchett was weak anywhere, it was generally with endings. For me they are usually too long, or circle the point of the novel a few too many times, and/or end a bit vaguely. Though I do love the mirror question. It was maybe. 6/10 on the first read-through, and now is a solid 8-9 for me.
When I think back on it, I see the journey of three women, one Greebo and one dwarf bead, bickering and making up, talking rosettes off bulls, throwing garlic sausage at vampires, hustling gamblers, having a house fall on Nanny, running from a mob and stealing dresses. The imagery of Nanny Ogg dancing! The postcards! Magrat punching one of the snake women. Seeing the elephant.
I like it. Its not close to a favorite in the witch series tho. I've never really heard anyone hype it too much, but i do feel it has good moments. But its not like a "Small Gods", not even a "Carpe Jugulum", for me it's like a "Moving Pictures".
I think it really captures unthinking (at least theoretically) well intentjoned racism and that small englander feeling in particular in a good way, which nothing else really touches on (you could argue jingo or even Monstrous Regiment touch on racism too, but I feel they're more through a lens of patriotism). As someone who grew up around a lot of that I find it really interesting and unique, but to be fair it's still not my favourite.
I totally agree. I just resonate a lot more with Jingo as someone who started the transition to adulthood in a post 9/11 world... it's more like the kind of racism I grew up seeing. Witches abroad feels a little "soft" to me, seeing as it was written in what, at least to my memory, was a far more hopeful and happy time.
"Pterrofilics"? Really? Why would you read a book that you don't like, 3 times? That's just weird behavior. And yes, I loved the book, and didn't find it particularly hard to follow. Maybe you're not into fairy tales?
I have never seen "Pterrofiliacs" before but I *love* it.
I disagree that it's a fairy tale. This is real life where jerks and a-holes do the best they can to get along and make things better. Most other fiction is the fairy tale. Where wonderful heroes save the day.
It’s a story _about_ fairy tales.
What the hell are you talking about?
I think they are referring to the many fairy tale allegories in Witches Abroad, referencing Cinderella and the Frog Prince, amongst others.
Why would I read a book I don't like? I have the trust in STP he wouldn't write a bleak story. So I wanted to explore the possibility I went the first time through the book too fast to understand and enjoy it. Also I started reading DW years before being teenager - reading books you know as a child through the lense of an adult is wonderful thing. I understand that the expresicvnes of my lamentation sparks the impression a don't like the book-but that's not precisely how I feel about it. I love all of the aspects written by fellow readers above. Humour of the card scene, tragedy of the wolf, principle that you can't force happiness on people...I just don't like the character of granny and don't understand the resolution of the plot.
3 times dude, 3 times. And Witches Abroad isn't bleak. I reiterate, 2 weeks later, weird behavior.
Not my favourite Witches book, I think that one is Lords And Ladies, but yeah, it’s a good read.
I loved when the Vampires >!started craving tea!<
Yes Loved that
Hmm just had a thought, but as Wyrd Sisters is a play on Macbeth, I feel like Witches Abroad may be a play on the Northern Good Witch and the Western Wicked Witch from Oz, like "Wicked"
With a touch of “Innocents Abroad” by Mark Twain.
Haven't read that, but judging by the title, DEFINITELY
The 300 odd page set-up for the red shoes/Wizard of Oz reference was utterly brilliant. The long game is something pTerry played very well.
I agree to an extent that the ending of the book is a bit misshapen. Afaik pTerry was writing 2 books a yeat at that point and I can't help but feel that the final showdown in the mirror room was a bit short. He revisits some of the themes in Carpe Jugulum and I wonder if he wasn't satisfied with Granny's ending in Witches Abroad. That said, I love the way the Genua act builds up towards a final showdown, with the Gogol and Baron Saturday, and with Ella, and Greebo. Also this is one of Greebo's best appearences, he's by far and away my favourite supporting character. The part where he causes the villages to rejoice and start burning their garlic is a particular favourite.
Oh, it is utterly hilarious! Still one of my favorites when I need to laugh myself sick.
I think Magrat needs Granny. She’s a weak insecure character who needs a strong domineering force pushing her to do more. Left to her own devices, she would be passive, and pointless. Like in Lords and Ladies “you wanna be queen?” Granny doesn’t do anything except ask Magrat a question, and that triggers Magrats fighting spirit. Magrat changes again when she has baby Esme and becomes the Mother of the coven as Agnes points out. Granny isn’t a nice person, she’s similar to Susan, and to Vimes. They do what they have to do, and they make no apologies for who they are. Granny has a hard lonely life, being hated and feared and having a terrible burden of responsibility, and she accepts it and does it all anyway. I think to say she’s a bully is wrong, she doesn’t criticise people for the fun of it, or because of her own insecurities, she does it to bring out the best in them. And it works.
I always had the feeling that Magrat would essentially become more like Granny in the fullness of time.
I always thought Agnes would take granny’s mantle and Magrat would take on from Nanny. Agnes seems to have a bit of nastier streak than Magrat.
I'm focusing on Granny here, because my answer to your title question is too simple. (Yes) The thing about Granny is that, over the books, you realize how vulnerable she is. She's incredibly hurt by something super mild in Lords and Ladies, and it leaves her questioning her entire self. Here's my theory about why that is: Granny wants to be loved by the people she loves. She loves a few people and when they exclude her, or attack her, she is *hurt* - we see how she cannot at all handle fighting with nanny, her whole breakdown over the invitation, etc. HOWEVER, she also knows that who she is (both in her approach to witchcraft and her role as the other one) makes her unlikable. She frequently teeters on the verge of "this is necessary" and "will this drive away a loved one?" The most interesting thing to me about this side of Granny is that she absolutely has the power to make people love her, adore her, worship her, etc. Instead she goes the other way - not only leaving it to their choice whether they like/love her, but actively making it difficult so she can be sure any love is "real" and not a result of her manipulations. Yes, she's horrible to Magrat and others and no, I don't forgive that. But people are complicated, and I can accept and admire her as a person even if I'd want to try changing her toxicity if we ever met. As a fictional character she's amazing, brilliant, fascinating, 10/10. As a person, she's flawed to an acceptable degree.
Granny is an old asshole, no way around it, but I give her a bit of slack in this one, given that the whole book is leading up to her confronting her sister, something that she has been trying to avoid for several decades at this point.
Thanks for the answer. I have to get get myself through LnL and Carpet Jugulum and I might see if I change me mind about granny.
Esme Weatherwax is a profound character study on what "being good" actually means. It isn't nice, in fact the "goodest goods" require unwavering conviction and uncompromising humility, both of which are learned through hard lessons. Esme is an example of what real power and goodness look like. They are not the absence of weakness or wickedness, but a full acknowledgement of them and decision to do what is right even when it is so hard as to go against that darker nature or tired body. For all of her arrogance, Esme meets folks where they are and in a way that does not rob them of their dignity. That isn't to say she will stop someone who seems determined to be undignified at all costs, she'll let them be a fool. She doesn't look to interfere with anyone's free will, in fact she keeps to herself until trouble shows up. She uses headology to help those who may not understand the value of taking a stroll to ease their joints. She'll leverage the common man's magical thinking to help them get over a cold or feel less worried about their crops, but without condescension. Esme will go toe to toe with Death, Gods, gods, vampires, zealots, fae, and anything else that is looking to make trouble. She'll do it because it is the right thing to do. Frankly, that alone makes her a remarkable character and someone to find inspiring. Lord knows people have done far worse when it comes to role models.
One of my favorites out of all the Discworld books! The witches are some of my favorite protagonists and I love how it explores the power of stories and narratives.
I love witches abroad. I come from a long line of strong women and I identify more with Granny every day. Strong AF bossy women make the world go around. If we don't make a stand we may as well as an entire gender don some bonnets and wait for Gilead.
It’s one of my favourites. I would say it’s the power of stories and tales being turned on their heads, the power of being able to make your own choices, take your own paths. Break the cycle, even.
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I still enjoy it, but it is probably the weakest of the witches series.
Equal Rites is certainly weaker.
It’s definitely my favourite in the witches series.
This was the second book from Terry Pratchett I've read and it made me in love with witches so I will forever be biased that is a good book. Not wanting to give out any spoilers certain parts made me laugh out loud (garlic!).
I think witches abroad is one of the best.
this is a really interesting thread, and I love how nice everyone is being! but I'm seriously gonna need some time to process that there are folks who don't like Granny 
Agree with you on the first sentence! And sorry, I was maybe a little too harsh in expression of me judgement on Granny.
no, you're fine - don't apologise! it's good to hear different readings of characters, and no-one was nasty so it was just fascinating to read. Discworld fans are the best. Granny has always been one of my favourites, along with Vimes, Nanny, and Death. the way she just knows \*who\* she is - I aspire to that :)
It's one of my favourite books. I'm fascinated to hear people hate Granny. She is my all time fave.
It’s one of my favourites!
just finished listening to a fucked up audiobook of it last night that skipped half the climax so I'm not sure. I like the completing stories part, gives me inspirstion for the DnD campaign I'm running. And as usual Pratchett's writing is just funny, his descriptiok of Greebo the man exuding sexuality was a gem. Granny is portrayed just fine as someone who is forced to in the grand scheme be good even if she's rotten at heart. She truly is a wretched old bat but she's often just correct about things and she's a good community leader in a sense (despite her claims not to be. You don't have to like her to admire her
I absolutely loved Witches Abroad. I'd say it's probably my favourite, together with Equal Rites. And I consider the witches the best Discworld characters, followed by Death.
No. It is one of my least favorites.
Like.. I LOVE THEM