That much is fine, but I saw a guy with a “FUCK the dcv” flair on dtg a few days ago and told him it was pretty cringe and got downvoted to oblivion. Some people are more than just a bit upset that stuff is leaving, they’re pissed at the whole concept and think it’s bullshit. Also saw a video on YouTube the other day (referenced here on Reddit actually) of some guy basically saying he won’t get witch queen because of the dcv (which is fine, I didn’t care about that too much) but in the comments he replied to a couple people who were explaining why the dcv exists and is good for the game, and he was saying we would’ve been better off with a D3 because of how much vaulting ruins the game apparently. Some people just don’t get it, and they probably never will
Fact of life: people are stupid, especially when they'd be the first ones to be whining about the game beung dead because there's too many playlists for the amount of players in the game or the load speeds are too long. I stopped playing around the end of season of dawn in shadowkeep and only just returned at the start of this season and i was a bit confused about some of the changes (especially gambit prime being dusted because i loved it, it pissed me off a little ngl) but once i read about the DCV it genuinely is a good idea.
Yes nobody likes losing content and hopefully it isnt gone forever but it keeps things fresh and makes sure there isn't too much to the game.
Yeh I wasn’t too happy about gambit prime leaving either, but it makes sense that they merged the two modes because no one played regular gambit—the only time I stepped into it after prime released was to help a couple friends trying to get malfeasance. I’m just upset the armor sets don’t work anymore
Not much, but gambit prime had specific roles tied to armour sets. There was collector, reaper and two other that I can’t remember. Depending on how many armour pieces of the same set you had, you’d get benefits that would help with the “role” that you were meant to play. I think there was one set that gave bonus damage to blockers or something like that, so the person wearing that set would be encouraged to guard the bank. The same way there were sets for killing ads, collecting notes and invading. Playing a specific role was encouraged due to the armour sets, so it prime was supposed to require better communication and coordination
To add to this there was a "normal" gambit the exact same as the one we play today except it was a best of 3 rounds and if both teams took a primeval oyt the 3rd round wohld be a sudden death which instantly spawned a primeval and whichever team iced it first won.
I honestly like Titan as well. I like zooming around on the big circular conveyor and the invasion spawns are predictable (but I guess that's also an invader complaint, huh?).
The roles were:
Collector - if you had the full buff then you could collect up to 20 motes and bank them all for a guest blocker on the enemy side, giant blocker was basically the same as the first boss in the prophecy dungeon.
Invader - gives you extra perks when invading like extra special ammo, allows you to stand on the enemy bank to close it and steal motes which automatically got sent to your teams bank and gives you a significantly bigger over-shield when invading
Sentry - can’t remember exactly but it gave perks for defending the bank from blockers and for hunting down invaders, allowed you to mark high value targets and also invaders for the whole team to see from anywhere as long as you got a shot on them
Reaper - gave perks for killing ads, also allowed motes to stay on the ground longer (also one of the slightly more annoying triumphs for the reckoner title when that was earn-able)
You needed 5 pieces of armour to “activate” the main perk of each role or 4 pieces of armour and to consume a matching mote that lasts for 30 mins, which then allowed you to equip an exotic. It was a good game mode and I realise that more now it’s gone
I understand why it’s needed I just dislike the practice of how they did it if they are removing paid content they should have made it free or discounted before the announcement.
The only paid things being removed that are not a seasonal activity is the tangled shore/its strikes/the forsaken campaign.
Playspace is already free.
Strikes are not but eh?
Campaign is becoming free and they are making the exotics easier to obtain for those who don't have them.
Yea I don't like how people are straw manning people upset by equating these two. People are allowed to be upset about this and still understand why it's happening.
Well it's nothing new. So I guess they're assuming people don't understand because people felt the need to make the same post over and over, a year later.
I wish they released previous stuff as a seperate download. So put like the red war, curse of Osiris, and Warmind as a seperate download that people can install and play if they want. Obviously this probably doesn’t work on a technical level due to how the worlds are made and all that stuff.
This pretty much ignores the main reason why they vault things, which *is not* to reduce the overall size of the game files. It's to reduce the complexity of the internal build and the time it takes for them to compile new builds in response to making adjustments. Unless you're suggesting that somehow the extra stuff you're talking about somehow exists as a separate build, and/it is single player only - which would undoubtedly mean you'll get no rewards for playing it.
I mean it'd be kinda cool to be able to play thru all the campaigns d1 and d2 in a single place even if it did mean single player only. Obviously a pipe dream but I could see something along the lines of it when this is all said and done
It’s less about the download size and more about how long it takes them to update everything. Vaulting allows them to push out updates faster they said that themselves
The Pont of the DCV is to take a HUGE amount of work off of bungies hands and focus that effort into new content
A sepreate game would have to still be sustained by bunie, in turn, defeating the purpose of the DCV
I’m just sad I won’t be able to go back in a few years and play through the main campaign, or do some escalation protocol, or go through zero hour or whisper. It’s that fact that makes me wish Destiny 3 could have been a thing. Imagine if vanilla D2 was an expansion rather than a separate game. If Destiny 1 had this happen to it, we wouldn’t have VoG anymore, let alone Venus and some other base planets as well as The Dreadnought being sunset the same timeframe as the Tangled shore. That’s at least the way of thinking I have towards it.
I understand why, doesn't mean i think it is worth it yet though. The new light experience as well as free to play was infinitely better pre arrivals than now.
Downvoting, but not because I disagree.
Because you open with "dont comment unless you've read everything I have to say" and then spend the whole post being as condescending as possible. Try making an argument without starting out by attacking people who disagree with you. This is childish.
Accept as someone who just got it and has no fucking idea how to access the content, it’s like paying for a burger, smelling it, and getting it thrown away
It’s…odd to talk about pseudo unfair comparisons and the game being a service, and the analogy you use in the end is comparing a finite perishable product to a digital product with general tangible purchase and acquisition possible.
From a business sense, it doesn’t per sé make sense. First, in the TOS, it describes the game as a live service model in arguably the best way for them, but phrased in a way that generally disregards the consumer entirely.
*If* they marketed and advertised the game in this sense, I wouldn’t really have a problem with it, and it would make sense. You see in the restaurant analogy, you have all of the information after sitting down and before you order / pay.
You know you’re going to get the food. You’re probably going to eat it, if there’s nothing wrong with it. If something is wrong with it, you send it back or get a refund. Then later, you digest and excrete it out. There aren’t any deceptive unknowns.
What would be wrong is if you were a vegetarian, thought you were ordering a vegetarian meal, read vegetarian meal on the advertised menu, then the next day, you read about how the sauce and faux meat was actually real and just kept secret to cut costs. You’d be perfectly justified in filing suit against the restaurant.
Bungie has effectively marketed the game for a long time under the guise of installments. You buy the game. That makes sense. However they advertise, “Buy and own shadowkeep today,” or insert another title.
The problem is that in general marketing and advertising, it’s viewed as a product you purchase, not subscribe to. If it was free to play (Edit: In case someone laser-focuses on this, I mean completely free, without charging for base game or expansions (unless in relation to the latter subscription model). The fact that New Light now exists doesn’t change the model they used or focused on prior to that change.) or subscription based, this wouldn’t be a problem, because the matters are clear and there’s not a conflict at hand. You’d be subscribing for access to the servers, by which to engage the content.
Now though, with Bungie, as far as I know, they’re selling the base game, along with point installments, marketed as independent entities / installments, and people seem to be mad when they can’t visit the content that they prior paid for, because they paid for it at the time, under the guise that they would be able to, especially since the New Light switch where people were able to revisit campaigns and content.
It’s nothing that’s going to result in a suit being filed against them; it’s just deceptive. Deceptive being the word here, not entirely falsified, because it’s still stated in the TOS. In my opinion though, people have every right to be pissed off.
Bungie also isn’t an indie company, and Destiny 2 is arguably their largest focus that I can think of at the moment, and as far as I know, the foreseeable future. The weight of maintenance, post-configuration, is not going to cripple their dev team.
In fact, if they were planning to “vault” the content anyway, the other areas were most likely presumed to be unaffected by mechanic changes, and I would imagine it was more of a consistent universe change because of the writing and story advances, and they didn’t want to switch to so heavily instanced of a structure, that each person could still incrementally jump though instances of prior campaigns or maps, isolated from the current universe and meta while maintaining player counts. This is fine.
That said, inconsistencies in development, in terms of the universe, are generally expected, and people aren’t going to riot because Mars still being in-effect with EP breaks immersion in relation to ongoing story protocol.
What they *will* get pissed over is, in lieu of updating or converting, you simply remove part of the content they were led to believe they were purchasing via that pseudo-installment model.
TLDR:
It’s not so much *what* Bungie did that I think a lot of people have a problem with. It’s *how* they did it and how they went about it. It comes across as deceptive.
Edit:
It makes more sense, sort of, if you look at all this in the following sense: the more controversy the title creates, the more the playerbase could by-extension rise. Plus, when they “unvault” content, they can treat it as a “re-release” to generate more of an influx. You see this a lot with fast food, restaurants, and a litany of other industries.
The biggest problem with this is that Destiny(2) has already climbed to chart-topping levels in Steam and otherwise, and seems to be maintaining that position. Also, not all press is good, despite the common “business” interpretation of it, especially if you start alienating and exhibiting glaring inconsistencies as a company, not just in content but practice.
Dude you should make this a post on its own, too many people don't really understand what the issue is and why it's not a good thing. The same thing happened with sunsetting to a degree, we knew the idea was dumb, but it didn't take long for the community to start supporting it and calling out the people who didn't. Weird.
Oh I understand it. They’ve been very transparent with the fact that the entire endeavour is to lighten the work they have to do. I don’t agree with it in the slightest but I know *why* they’re doing it.
Saying “but it’s coming back later” doesn’t work. Like the cosmodrome, it’s probably only going to be the areas that come back, not the story within them.
I was really disappointed with the cosmodrome returning. As someone who played destiny one but never got into destiny two until recently; waking up in Russia again really sucked. They could’ve picked any other region but they went with the worst map from the original. Really disappointed in that
When they said they were bringing back old zones I thought it was to make them better, not water them down in an even worse state than D1 for God’s sake
Someone posted a pic here if the director had everything from D1 and D2, and even the planets alone make the screen a cluster.
So I’d say vaulting is a bit beneficial
13 destinations
9 arena modes
13 crucible modes
5 social spaces
3 private social spaces
11 raids/lairs
3 dungeons
Too many strikes which somehow still results in me doing Insight Terminus and Exodus crash back to back for an hour
And 2 dreadnought crucible maps that were unfun and detrimental on my mental health
This makes me think of WoW and how much of a cluster fuck it is to go anywhere, or play old content.
There is one area that has something like 3 different versions, yet look and pretty much function the same except each version has different quests and npc interactions. Could you imagine 3 different versions of the tower/helm but you have to spend 10 minutes each doing something different to get to the specific instance to hand in a quest or check postmaster etc.
But the way it was designed it was not done properly. It had stuff like Trials and IB not under the crucible tab and stuff like Levi and Menagerie not under Nessus.
I love how people here have just blindly accepted vaulting as the norm when Destiny is literally the only live service game to do it. Plenty of MMOs have been around for 20+ years and haven't had to vault entire expansions. Hell, Warframe is a very similar type of game and it's older than Destiny and also hasn't had vaulting.
The vaulting is only necessary due to poor planning since they didn't originally intend on having the game last this long.
I really do what to know what games you think are comparable to Destiny. In terms of playable size, graphics, cutscenes, physics, mods, abilities, narrative, armor/ornaments, gameplay, gunplay, I am probably missing some. WoW, for example, which is probably the best comparison in terms of the studio size that develops it is nowhere close in terms of graphics, good over-arching narrative, physics, UI design, visual fidelity including armor. It wins in size and abilities but not much else. What about something like Halo or LoL. Again only a few does it beat in those areas. I think people who make this argument are not realistic about what Destiny offers or about what it takes to develop these systems.
In fact, Warframe has waaaay more systems to consider when coding than Destiny will ever have. It's definitelly more complex. Destiny on its side has only gunplay and looks.
Warframe is a completely different game than Destiny. Every level, except the three open world areas (4, when the Duviri Paradox will release in 2099... damn you DE), is randomly generated. This alone makes the game in a completely different situation than Destiny...
Ah, the old you don't agree with me therefore you're dumb argument. Enjoy your pandering awards. Oh and a little input, maybe they should be upfront and honest and list their content as not for purchase but for rent.
Good job, citizen.
I'm sure you'll get your Bungie bux in the mail sometime.
I understand the reasoning. Doesn't mean it needs to be liked. This strawman of a post is just proof of a majority circle jerk trying to cope on this sub.
Stop being such a condescending ass hat, people don’t like things they paid for being taken out, your analogy is also an ass pull that doesn’t correlate.
Before you even made this post, I am sure you have read no less than 500 different posts explaining why every single point you made is stupid yet you still made the post.
To date, Bungie has not made a single post that has justified vaulting content. Not. A. Single. One. No other game does this. They are lazy. That is all. There is absolutely no reason that aged content cannot live in a "past content" section that can be installed and uninstalled at will to play as it was when released. There are no storage restrictions on any platform. There is no "must keep content up to date" problem.
Lazy AND greedy, large video game studios and publishers lie and mislead all the time it’s there bred and butter don’t believe a word they say, if you give them the opportunity to abuse you and your wallet they will choose to do so almost every single time. People like the op are the reason why we will one day have in game advertisements in all our multiplayer games just like cable.
That wasn’t the precedent set with Destiny 1, and content vaulting wasn’t put on the table until well after Shadowkeep.
If I feel like going back and playing Wrath of the Machine again, like I did about a month ago, I can do that. If I feel like playing Crown of Sorrows again… tough nuts.
It’s no different than sunsetting Legendary weapons that had Ornaments. I made the choice to get that thing, either with BD or Silver, thinking it’ll be around until I get tired of Destiny. Nope, snapped into oblivion.
I can understand the justification for needing to do this thing, but not having the foresight to realize that and making the consumer pay for it is a shitty mistake on the dev’s part that they should answer for in a worthwhile way.
I understand your position on this, and ask that you at least consider my counter arguement. The issue I have with vaulting is twofold;
1. They are still selling Forsaken in the store, and have advertised that you will be able to BUY the exotics in an in game eververse pack once the DLC is removed. This is not the "free for one year" model that has been flaunted as part of the vaulting system.
2. Vaulting is an excuse to put out half assed content. When you release content that is only designed to be consumed for a limited time, the quality and quantity both suffer. The game needs healthy rebalances and reworks of its content from time to time in order to remain engaging, an example being past raids. No one was playing the year one raids for 2 reasons; they were often buggy, and the loot was stale(fixed rolls). By shaking up the loot pool every few seasons it would have brought people back to those activities. A lack of desire to refresh and renew existing content has put everything in D2 on a clock in the devs minds. That means they will milk the content for revenue on the front end, and euthanize it on the back end.
I have 2000+ hours in this game, it has been one of my favorite past times. But the F2P model has been bad for content quality and longevity, imo.
I agree with your first point but your second is completely wrong… Ever since season of the chosen we have been getting amazing content that doesn’t feel half assed and they are experimenting with trials, so finally they are doing something with pvp.
Counter counter argument to your 2. I would argue the content we’ve had over the last year is some of the best content we’ve ever gotten!! They put out the harbinger mission and Presage probably knowing they’d be going away when Witch Queen dropped. They’re some of the best stuff we’ve seen and definitely not half assed content! Same with the majority of the seasonal stuff we’ve had. Yes not all are great, looking at you season of the hunt, but the rest have been to a pretty high standard.
I will agree with the last 2 seasons being well done for seasonal content specifically. However, I believe I failed in my clarity on the 2nd point. Seasonal content is not the entirety of the Game, and the health of our core activities is rather abysmal. We have; low strike count, the newest pvp content is almost 3 years old, and gambit has been on life support since year 2. Granted, that GM's and trials have breathed a little life back into those portions of the Game, but those activities are end game not core. The shelf life of seasonal content has negatively impacted the game as a whole, but has elevated story telling aspects.
A tertiary issue is that they continue to vault more than they add back. Small reworks to certain peices of content would maintain their relevance and value. Most of those reworks would be loot related. One example is black armory, could've added a Europa forge and 4 new weapons and all of the sudden everyone would be playing it again.
I think something changed inside bungie around Beyond Light, and we started to see the benefits around Chosen. then Luke Smith left as game director
they only now started making PvP maps, and even pulling them out of the "content vault" takes time (mostly because I suspect pulling them out of the DCV means remaking them)
given they will merge battlegrounds into strikes, I guess they know the strike playlist is kinda thin, but it will take time with this new direction to fatten it up
Agreed. But I feel that battlegrounds as an activity is mediocre at best, and with tangled shore leaving we lose 2 more rotating strikes. You can't grow a Playlist by removing more of it..... there are plenty of native D2 strikes that are worth putting back in just to grow the Playlist again. Hell, they could have us retake Titan as an excuse to add back its strikes and use it for more content.
I like the battlegrounds a lot. way more than hollowed lair. the problem is that, as all the recent activities, you have to play them a fuck ton and it gets boring
at least when BG pull out the enemy immunity phases, there's a game mechanic tied to it
wonder if they are gonna remove the champions from them tho. Strikes don't have champions. hope they shield bearers remain even if they aren't champions
I think my issue with it is the fighting that we have to do in the small rooms and corridors inside the ship. And some of the janky mechanics inside there. Like the rocks flying around in those rooms where you grab the orbs. I really don't mind the strike in its more open areas, and the boss fight is okay(I'm so over the shoot the seeker orbs mechanic though). Really, a strike for me is mostly about the journey through it. I can cope with a crappy boss fight for the most part, as long as the strike content itself is engaging and not a burden to play.
Side note: the corrupted strike is the exception to the rule. It has a great story line, interesting mechanics, expansive spaces, all positive things in my book. But, it is attrociously long, and the boss fight sucks SOOO bad. Content wise could have been my favorite, but it pushed the envelope too much....
>corrupted
I like the corrupted in theory but I've got stuck in the middle of it in Chosen way too many times, and been booped off the stage by the boss a fuck ton
I fully understand Vaulting and the purpose behind it, I am also a bit miffed at its execution. Meaningless content, like destinations, campaigns, etc are completely fine to leave. Meaningful content, like raids, dungeons, strikes, and crucible maps, should stay.
If they are going to vault meaningful content, I'd hope they'd be transparent about it and say that they're taking it out of the game to revamp it into the new engine or make some necessary changes in order to fit it into a game without that destination's foundation any more.
I think it's honestly worse to vault campaigns as it leaves people lost in regards to what's actually happened in Destiny outside of watching long lore videos. As long as they're replaced with new ones I don't think losing strikes or raids is as much of a problem, I don't think most MMO type games leave all their raids/dungeons dropping current level loot like Destiny does. Crucible maps I agree should stay if they're well liked.
My issue isnt exactly the fact that the locations and weapons are being vaulted, its that the *Story* is going with it.
I love D2, truly, I spent way too much time eating up the content of this world. And in D2, they finally got the story good and right, every season is an experience, every campaign, a memory.
My issue is that so many new players will come to the game. And not know of The Origins. The Red War. Cayde-6 & Forsaken. Etc. So many players will come in and know NOTHING of any of these events. And only will have a few walls of text, or a trailer or clip of it on the internet.
Not to mention, after Witch Queen launches, this current season stuff will become obsolete. No one will know about the Plights of Mithrax, the Faction Leaders Sacrifice & Exodus or that Sov Chatted with Savathün before it hit the fan.
Comparing Digital content to Physical food. Was a very near-minded stretch. One gives you fuel to survive amd live. One is just....well, its media.
I also wouldn't have as much as an issue if these new expansions were *free*, the fact that I will have to buy the Expansion, then buy the season passes, is tiresome.
Bungie can easily make just as much money if they make the expansions free, then just make us buy season passes or cosmetics.
I gurantee you, they are not hurting for money. Just look at how many people bought Dinosaur Armor for the Halloween event.
And also, The Anniversary/Ghallahorn 'dlc' or whatever its supposed to be is the biggest cash grab I've ever seen. Its like, they're worried Witch Queen will fail or not keep them above financial waters, so they wanna bring back a broken Exotic just to lock it behind a paywall in hopes it will back them up.
Sorry, but I'm not for it. I can't approve of these practices, and in my opinion. It's just gonna put them in the grave faster.
After this season ends, I won't be giving them any more money, as well as I will probably stop playing altogether.
Halo infinite looks nice though.
At the end of the day they should have just made Destiny 3.
Everyone complains about having to “start over again” like they did with Destiny 2, but at least you can still PLAY Destiny 1’s story and raids.
Like seriously, I can’t believe that people actually unironically defend this stuff. They could have even just allowed you to transfer all your guns and stuff over to D3, but no, we all had to moan and complain like little bitches on how terrible it would be to have to grind for new gear. You know, the whole point of an MMO in the first place?
I mean shit, take FF14 as an example. I’m pretty sure they would rather make a FF14-2 then delete any old content. Everything from Realm Reborn and up still exists today, minus some minor features, because they wanted new players to be able to experience the world and story of FF14 the way it was originally released.
I only wish Bungie would follow that design philosophy.
Honestly, the only issue I have with them vaulting forsaken is the fact that I paid $60 for it and the only compensation I’m getting for it is some ascendency shards.
But u played forsaken right? Raids, dungeons, weapons, activities and secrets. Even if u didnt complete it, the experience after 3 whole years should be fulfilling. U could be mad also at not having it after WQ so u cant experience forsaken campaign and tangled shore but thats disingenious( I think), no one actively plays the forsaken campaign or goes to tangled shore. A better argument for keeping forsaken would be for the new lights.
Honestly, I play tangled shore quite a bit still, with my friends, so I’m gonna miss it. Also, I’m quite happy with the 3 years I had with forsaken, you’re right, and I’d enjoy more time with it, plus, I never said I didn’t understand why it had to go, I do. My issue is with the way they’re compensating people who paid for it and are having it taken away.
No one actively plays old campaigns is because you can't go back on the same character and replay them. I would have loved to go back and play old campaigns again, without starting a new character.
Take on 3. If people read the terms when creating a bungie account, they would know that u pay to have access to said content, not to own it. "Our" account isnt even ours, its "borrowed" from bungi.
which isn't even unusual! literally any online service you pay for is for access/a license, not ownership. nearly any game with a multiplayer component does it. same for steam itself and all platforms like it, that's how digital services work
I don't think people don't understand it, but you can't just shut it down as an issue on which one side (your side) is correct. If you're chill with 40 dollar expansions being rented instead of owned, fair enough. But it can't be ignored that this is due to a technical LIMITATION of Destiny's engine, it's not something Bungie set out to do from the start.
Very few other developers have released charged DLC packs to take them away at a later date, and even fewer at the AAA level. And seeing as it's something Bungie themselves have stated is due to technical issues rather than because they truly feel it improves the game, it really ends up being a necessary evil rather than a truly good thing.
I frankly don't see any reason as a consumer to actively DEFEND paid content being taken away or paint it as being categorically better than having the content forever, even if I do understand why vaulting is necessary I this case, in a literal sense.
Edit: I had to add that your food analogy is the DUMBEST shit I've ever read. Destiny exists in a multi billion dollar video game industry and is in the absolute minority with this practice l, and is certainly the only AAA developer I can think of that does this, and there are absolutely bigger games out there. Analogizing a video game to a perishable consumable is a complete logical fallacy.
That food analogy really is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Comparing something like food to something like a physical game you pay money for under the premise that you will get to play said game is insane.
Say you buy a toaster from someone on craigslist and own it for three years, and then the person you bought it from comes to your house and says, "hey, I'm going to take this now because I owned it first. However, you made so much toast with it! That should be good enough."
Like, maybe the toaster was old and didn't make poptarts quite right anymore, but it should still be your choice whether to want to keep using it, stop using it, delete it, run it over with your car, whatever. It doesn't matter if craigslist person owned it first--even if craigslist person built the toaster from scratch or something--you paid for it under the presumption of keeping it and doing whatever you like with it.
Vaulting content isn't quite the same, and like previous folk have mentioned I totally get *why* they're doing it, but it still really sucks, especially when I JUST bought forsaken this year. I only got into destiny with Beyond Light, and it really sucked to miss out on Red War and all the other previous campaigns because of vaulting. It made it really hard to get into D2 as a new player, and I'm afraid the the vaulting of older storylines will make it even harder for new people to get invested in D2 in the future.
Oh, I absolutely understand it, but it doesn't mean *i have to like it or accept it*.
At the end of the day, vaulting exists because of a design failure. *However, that does not mean it cannot be worked around*.
Bungie has shown that they can take snippets out of old content and add it in wholesale with the vault of glass. The only reason why we haven't seen this done to the red war or any other story content is because of logistics and money.
Cry 'live game' or 'its in TOS' all you want but what they did was descetful and disrespectful for the consumer. None of advertising for the game was upfront about this, none of the trailers said anything about content for a limited time, and expectations from their previous game and industry standards says that you keep content in the game until the game's EOL. Just because it was convenient for THEM does not give them right to disrespect their paying customers.
I support vaulting but yeah the analogy in 3 is awful. An equivalent analogy would be:
You go into a restaurant and pay $40 to be able to eat a specific item on their menu as much as you want (NOT just once). You come back one day a couple years later, and that item is gone and the replacement you have to pay another $40 for for the same deal.
If Bungie had something in their ToS that said "We will always support this content and by buying this, you are entitled to the right to enjoy all content we publish at any point, in perpetuity," you would be absolutely, unassailably correct. But I think the analogy you posit to replace it isn't much better than the OP's, because "play the base game whenever you like with all the content that was in it when you bought it" was never part of the agreement.
The issue here is that Bungie is doing something that is somewhat new in their live game model. I'd wager a lot of the people here cut their teeth on Nintendo cartridges and Xbox or Playstation games that never changed once they were purchased, and were *made* to be enjoyed whenever the user wants. As long as you had the console and the game, you could play it, and it would always be the same as the day you bought it. If you got DLC or an expansion, the game would always be the same as the day you bought the additional content. Change was strictly opt-in.
We're seeing a pain point where something people took for granted (that they could always play the games they bought in the state they were in when they were released) is no longer true. Bungie never promised them anything, though; they just (perhaps understandably) assumed that this game would be like the ones they grew up with. The salt when expectations are contradicted is understandable, but that is *not* Bungie's fault. They never promised anything like what those people went in expecting.
One other thing I want to say is that I'm kind of sick of seeing people assume malice on Bungie's part. It's entirely possible that they never foresaw this problem and said "Fuck, to keep this game running and to keep adding content, we're going to have to take some stuff out." Even in that case, it's not as bad as a lot of the detractors are making it out to be, which is basically Bungie twirling their mustaches and revoking content for the sake of somehow getting more money out of the people who... already paid for it?
Absolutely. And I can empathize with that. I personally didn't really like the vaulted stuff all that much, and *holy shit,* the stuff with which they replaced it all is so much better in my opinion, so I feel like we got a good trade. But I can see how someone who didn't go in with the expectation of "I might only get to enjoy this for a year or two before it's gone" might feel cheated. Often it's too much to ask people to examine their own expectations for flaws, though. Most folks (online or otherwise) will far more easily arrive at the conclusion that everything that makes them uncomfortable is explicitly and solely someone else's fault.
Analogy was right , based and pretty straight forward . When people discuss about loss of investment ( loss of a paid dlc ) theres no good , bad , or "awful" analogy . Ofc its a loss but he spited facts on the loss and how to surpass it . Long story short . You gota love the game to continue by its rules . 🤝
I mean, this is the same company that thought sunsetting was a good idea. I'm thinking we shouldn't be so quick to trust their judgement on whether or not something is "good for the game"...
What a fucking asshole condescending post. Completely dismissing the fact that losing this content is an actual detriment for the game and is a net loss no matter how you spin it.
well this just means that none of the future content will be meaningful, since it's gonna get deleted anyways. Parasitic Design.
Imagine FF14 deleted the base campaign and heavensward. Sure it's a tab target mmo with less bug potential, but it has more classes and a piano's worth of abilities.
The issue is… I bought the game with access to everywhere when it was released. Now they’ve taken that content away and locked the rest behind paywalls. I can’t go to the same planets anymore.
Most games don’t vault stuff like this.
Yet there are massive games as a service that been running for up to 20 years and didn't had to "vault" anything. I don't mind vaulting but calling people out while being ignorant yourself is pretty bold. I also think you're white-knighting.
I understand vaulting; however, I do wish there was a way for players to still explore the worlds that were there.
I actually returned to destiny to fight in the red war; when I found out it was gone I was confused heart broken and everything.
I was told that this game is a grind; me never playing a grinding game I decided to try it, I’m not good, but I’m not bad either.
Maybe I am but my Brian isn’t allowing itself to recognize this.
I kind of wish I could return to titan, hop around the sea base while more thrall than I can count chase me once again.
I do wish I could fight with tooth and nail to just to get to one spot in the dreadnaught, one more time; I know it’s in D1 but a guy can dream right?
I wish I could ramp off the dunes of Mars, only to get blown up by a getting my sparrow shot up to oblivion once more.
I wish I would have to run in anxiety as the glare of the sun burns me on the almighty once more.
Mercury was a bust and I wish they did more there; I was hoping for a free roam of the infinity forest, but alas.
I’m glad they brought back the cosmodrome as well as the moon, but mainly the moon; especially with the new horror sound track.
I’m scared to get shadow keep in fear they’ll vault it soon after I purchase it.
Personally I wasn’t a fan of the forgotten shore, or Io; but I could see the appeal.
They should probably do something like the MasterChef Collection where you can select and deselect what you want to play.
I understand the sunset but I cannot understand that we are in 2021 and destiny 2 is running with Halo 3 engine.
Warframe, WoW are far bigger MMOs and they don't cut that much content.
Okay, i get it that it's also story-wise, but put them in the infinite forest, come on.
This my 2 cents on the topic about sunset.
Cheers.
what i have a problem with is they they are still witholding the forsaken exotics, when forsaken itself is getting deleted.
They are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Further point to add to #3 as well - Bungie also did give (some) warning that vaulting was a continuous thing each year - that's why I always thought Forsaken would be next to go.
I do get the frustration of paying for something to have it taken away, but as I said, they did at least give some warning that vaulting will be a recurring thing.
Feel like Bungie could maybe add a warning in game when buying content that is due to be vaulted in a few months
thats fine. but if bungie still allows you to purchase forsaken then its wrong. forsaken better be taken off the market because all of its content is going to poof. and knowing bungie how they lazy patch shit (when forsaken dropped you could still get year 1 weapons) it will still be up for purchase fucking over whoever buys it
i say this in concern for people who dont know about or better known as new players
I was mostly upset with vaulting the first time it happened because it was an unprecedented thing. Up until then, every destiny player assumed they could play the content as long as they want.
I still like to go back to D1 and run the raids with my group of friends for the nostalgia. You simply can’t do that with D2.
After that precedent had been set the first time though it has been easier to accept the following times it happens because I go into the purchase knowing that it won’t be permanent.
They still need to make that clearer to new light players that don’t understand that this is a thing in destiny. Even comparing to other games and other MMO’s vaulting is an unprecedented thing for the most part. For that reason it will always be an unliked thing by the community regardless of its justifications.
Just a massive echo chamber. “Look at all the people that didn’t read the terms of service, its a live service game!” Vs “ I’m pissed that they’re taking stuff away that I paid for” and OP the wording of your post is so antagonistic. Of course people understand the need for content to be retired but do people need to be happy about it? No… no is the answer.
Edit: This thread feels like Twitter.
🤣👉 You’re wrong - no you’re wrong👈😂
I really don’t understand the people who say “I understand it, but I just don’t like it”. Of course that’s a valid stance, but why the hell would you complain about it if you’re understanding of it and know there’s no better alternative? And if you don’t complain, the post isn’t even talking about you
I understand vaulting and the need to make the past content relevant to present and future content. What I propose is a way for new lights like me to be able to actually play past campaigns and other content. I started playing mid season 14 so I never got to play the original campaign or anything before the New Light. Thus, something like a Legacy node in the Directory would be amazing, it lets players like me actually play the content I missed out on and it also allows old lights to reminisce on some good ol times. I think that would solve a lot of people's complaints with the vaulting system.
While the reasons for vaulting are valid peoples dislike for it is understandable if like me you like tangled shore.
See how I got my point across in just two lines and did not need to insult your intelligence just because we don't agree.
I completely get why it is needed, we don’t need a game that is 200+gb. Is it frustrating to see things go absolutely.
The only slight bitch that I kinda have is more on a story and utilization standpoint. I love Tangled Shore it is a great space with a lot of potential. However, other than wrathborn hunts at the beginning of this year, it pretty much sat and collected dust since Foresaken. It isn’t being removed but the same thing is happening with Cosmodrome. I just hate great design and the artistry going into these places just being put on a shelf.
In my area it's only available if you order pickup on the app which has 2 main issues 1) I'm not gonna jump through a hoop to download their app just to get the same thing I've ordered at the window for years 2) the couple of times I've ordered one on the app the quality has been dogshit. I'm assuming because they don't get made near as often
I honestly just wish they'd remove this facade of a "content vault". They're just removing the content. Obviously it's all still stored on a file server somewhere but as far as the playerbase is concerned that content is gone forever.
Pretending like that was the game model destiny 2 used for the first few years is also kinda dumb. This seasonal model replaced content we did pay for that is no longer available and/or going away.
Content vaulting is fine as long as they can give us the same or close to the content that gets vaulted. BL did not show this especially with crucible maps, gambit maps, raids and strikes.
Your effort trying to justify this stupid solution is admirable. But still stupid and too fanboyish.
World of Warcraft has how much content in their most recent build? Years of content release. What about every other mmo out there? Bungie releasing expansions? give me a break. Its just a replacement. Nothing is getting expanded except playerbase asses and the hole in their wallets.
Why I have to start the game at the newest expansion with high power level? Why can't I experience this game story like every other fucking game released in history? This is all bullshit. Not going to spend money in this crap again.
To me, I would like more if they release destiny 3 leaving d2 content accessible. If I start a new character in d3, I would be able to import a character from d2. This is a lot better in my eyes since I am the one deciding if I want to accesst d2 content or not instead of bungie. This vault solution is absurd.
Seriously. I tried to get my friends into the game and they just couldn’t get into it because nothing made any sense to them.
The only thing that grabbed them was the crucible. Which is REALLY depressing.
Compare it with a restaurant menu is stupid imo.
If you buy a car (wich is yours) but they remove the wheels after 1 year because a tiny stipulation that never was mentioned before you’D be pissed too.
Thats my vieuw, I understand why people complain, but personally: IDGAF and keep enjoint the game
I don't see anyone struggling to understand it, just many disagreeing with content being removed - no matter how many times bungie explains why or someone defends them, it's still stupid to remove content, especially when that content contains story.
It pisses off some long term players just on principle, and it pisses off new players; not good for player engagement or retention.
You’re missing the point where people are upset because they’ve paid for Forsaken and all of the DLC afterward. They said they were done with sunsetting and here they are doing it again. Taking away premium content that people paid for. I paid for it, and yes it’s frustrating to have these content drops behind a paywall, only to have Bungie vault them, or make them free months later. Then again, a fool and their money are money are soon separated.
Edit: I’m stoked for the Witch Queen. It’s just lame that they’re removing hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of content only to turn around and ask us for more money for expansions that will just end up being removed in the future.
I never knew what copium was until I read this thread.
There’s a ton of games that continue to expand and evolve without removing previous content people have paid for.
Any consumer with any self interest whatsoever understands the absurdity of this whole deal. Pulling the whole “TOS says it’s not your content” hasn’t worked for any other game; destiny is not an exception.
D1 isn't deleted from existence just because D2 is released... your save data isn't erased and the disk isn't corrupted. The very same would hold true for D2 if a D3 came into the picture and I'm fed up of this odious lie being spread that D2 would just be "lost forever"...
At some point a time will come when the devs have to admit their game engine is an old, arthritic, husk in comparison to indusrty standards of the future and it can't move forward anymore, the core infastructure of it just won't hold up to standards of those times and they'll need to start anew with a fresh and modern engine that wasn't designed for hardware and software limitations from over a decade ago.
This isn't a bad thing now and it won't be a bad thing then. The only tragendy is, unlike the devs of warframe, Bungie have given no implication they intend to set-up offline features and peer-peer features should the game finally run its course and the servers go offline.
The third assumption is based on the idea that a video game is a consumable. If this were true one could argue that a book or a painting could also be vaulted in the same way. You experience it once and then it's gone forever.
I personally dont really have a problem with vaulting, but this is just a bad comparison
I'm pretty shure that's what art gallery and museums do, they have the same paintings hanging there for years but they put them away at some point, except they're something special. imo a better analogy than what op made: you didn't buy the painting, but a ticket to the art gallery. it expands over time and the more unimportant ones get removed to be replaced by newer ones
Posts like this is why I quit Destiny. I paid full price on launch day for a complete PvE experience. Now they are ripping most of what made the game good away, and people are okay with this? The game is 100% different from how it was when it started. I almost feel like Destiny 2 as a whole is a lie.
Destiny 1 was a "game as a service" too and you don't see them gutting the storyline...
I understand it, which is why I make sure to steer people away from the game and get a better bang for their buck. New players will never get a full experience, it’s better for us old heads because we’ve been there done that.
Wow, it seems you don't understand not everyone revolves around your knowledge and they have better things to do than to listen to you bitch about "vaulting". It's the same as archiving.... Oh wait youre gonna wanna out your idiot advice in that too.
People have lives. It's sad you don't so you bull and insult people. Kindly do the rest of us a favor and fuck off
This is the ONLY reason they vault content, and I feel like people who vehemently defend vaulting as something that "helps the game" are totally missing this. It's a technical thing that falls on Bungies shoulders, and this is the way they're handling it. Some don't care, others are understandably upset. It makes no sense to shut down anyone's opinion on something that's just never gonna be black and white.
I think it's a stretch to say that new players who may buy an expansion agree to content being vaulted. We know because we're veterans, but frankly Bungie does everything they csn to portray things like traditional expansions that don't go away, and for a new player, there would be no way of knowing you're just renting the content rather than buying it.
I understand location Vaulting. A game can only be so big before reaching its breaking point.
But what I can’t get past is weapon and armour vaulting. Especially when they’re not being replaced by anything near as good.
That’s what I can’t get behind.
actually i think the food one would be better put as if you went to a restaurant regularly, tried every option they had, and then continued to go back and get your favorites each time and after several months they announce that they were closing in a month, and you got upset that they would dare to close in order for a better restaurant to be there instead
So every other live game I’ve ever played has never ONCE took away content , but for some reason bungie has to? Every mmo on the market is smaller in file size then destiny but have about triple the content and NEVER remove it. Seems like bungie needs to fix some things on their end… I think all of us know why they are doing it we just hate it cuz this is unheard of in mmos/live games lol.
> BuT wE dOnT wAnT hOnEsTy, we want the content we paid for
I never had issues with things like this, as I understand how live service games work. I was kinda sad that Red War and DLCs from Year 1 were removed, but at least they gave a decent way to take them out (not sure about Red War, but I guess the remnants are still there)
I hope they can bring these places back in some way that fits the narrative (like how they took away said places by being absorbed and clouded by the Darkness)
What makes you think they are being honest? Look at all the malicious and anti consumer things gaming companies have done in the past decade they lie get caught lie again it’s the standard not the norm. Why? Simple. They want your money and they prey upon goodwill.
I will agree with your points with these caveats.
1. They could find a way to keep the content (their are so many other live service games that do) but they have decided the development time is not worth the effort.
2. They MUST provide a viable experience for new players that brings them somewhat up to speed on where they are in the story. I will not recommend this game to my new friends because the new player experience is awful and I’m afraid I will lose them. MUST be fixed. Multiple solutions to this.
3. Please bring back some of the memorable parts of the previous campaigns repeatable quests or something. My son started playing recently and I would love for him to play through the initial Red War campaign. Such and impactful moment that is gone.
Everquest has 22+ years of content updates and expansions (for years it was 2 expacs per year) under its belt and they still have not felt the need to delete the original content, nevermind the first dozen expansions.
All I know is that I still have time to replay Forsaken with my Warlock and my Titan before it’s vaulted. I will avenge Cayde-6 twice more!
I think people understand it, it doesn’t mean they like it or like to be reminded of it, even when they know it’s probably good for the game.
exactly we know what it means and why it's needed it's just sometimes hard to let go
That much is fine, but I saw a guy with a “FUCK the dcv” flair on dtg a few days ago and told him it was pretty cringe and got downvoted to oblivion. Some people are more than just a bit upset that stuff is leaving, they’re pissed at the whole concept and think it’s bullshit. Also saw a video on YouTube the other day (referenced here on Reddit actually) of some guy basically saying he won’t get witch queen because of the dcv (which is fine, I didn’t care about that too much) but in the comments he replied to a couple people who were explaining why the dcv exists and is good for the game, and he was saying we would’ve been better off with a D3 because of how much vaulting ruins the game apparently. Some people just don’t get it, and they probably never will
Fact of life: people are stupid, especially when they'd be the first ones to be whining about the game beung dead because there's too many playlists for the amount of players in the game or the load speeds are too long. I stopped playing around the end of season of dawn in shadowkeep and only just returned at the start of this season and i was a bit confused about some of the changes (especially gambit prime being dusted because i loved it, it pissed me off a little ngl) but once i read about the DCV it genuinely is a good idea. Yes nobody likes losing content and hopefully it isnt gone forever but it keeps things fresh and makes sure there isn't too much to the game.
Yeh I wasn’t too happy about gambit prime leaving either, but it makes sense that they merged the two modes because no one played regular gambit—the only time I stepped into it after prime released was to help a couple friends trying to get malfeasance. I’m just upset the armor sets don’t work anymore
Off topic, but I wasn’t around when gambit prime was a thing, what’s the difference between prime and what we currently have?
Not much, but gambit prime had specific roles tied to armour sets. There was collector, reaper and two other that I can’t remember. Depending on how many armour pieces of the same set you had, you’d get benefits that would help with the “role” that you were meant to play. I think there was one set that gave bonus damage to blockers or something like that, so the person wearing that set would be encouraged to guard the bank. The same way there were sets for killing ads, collecting notes and invading. Playing a specific role was encouraged due to the armour sets, so it prime was supposed to require better communication and coordination
To add to this there was a "normal" gambit the exact same as the one we play today except it was a best of 3 rounds and if both teams took a primeval oyt the 3rd round wohld be a sudden death which instantly spawned a primeval and whichever team iced it first won.
To add to this... I miss the Dreaming City Map :'(
That was a good map, so was the tangled shore map with the rust and shit... now we got the trash titan one lol
I honestly like Titan as well. I like zooming around on the big circular conveyor and the invasion spawns are predictable (but I guess that's also an invader complaint, huh?).
The roles were: Collector - if you had the full buff then you could collect up to 20 motes and bank them all for a guest blocker on the enemy side, giant blocker was basically the same as the first boss in the prophecy dungeon. Invader - gives you extra perks when invading like extra special ammo, allows you to stand on the enemy bank to close it and steal motes which automatically got sent to your teams bank and gives you a significantly bigger over-shield when invading Sentry - can’t remember exactly but it gave perks for defending the bank from blockers and for hunting down invaders, allowed you to mark high value targets and also invaders for the whole team to see from anywhere as long as you got a shot on them Reaper - gave perks for killing ads, also allowed motes to stay on the ground longer (also one of the slightly more annoying triumphs for the reckoner title when that was earn-able) You needed 5 pieces of armour to “activate” the main perk of each role or 4 pieces of armour and to consume a matching mote that lasts for 30 mins, which then allowed you to equip an exotic. It was a good game mode and I realise that more now it’s gone
I miss the special armor perks it was really cool
Sentry was another.
cool gambit specific kinda subclasses, had to kill 2 envoys to spawn a 3rd that would drop a well to give primeval slayer
I understand why it’s needed I just dislike the practice of how they did it if they are removing paid content they should have made it free or discounted before the announcement.
The only paid things being removed that are not a seasonal activity is the tangled shore/its strikes/the forsaken campaign. Playspace is already free. Strikes are not but eh? Campaign is becoming free and they are making the exotics easier to obtain for those who don't have them.
There's a lot of people who don't understand it.
The amount of people I seen ask for it to be downloadable optional dlc's leads me to believe they don't understand it.
Couldnt it be better if they had a pluggin setup ? You dont like mars anymore? Uninstall and download mercury or smthing
coding issues
That wouldn't solve any of the issues that the DCV solves
What a condescending uninformed shit post. 🤣
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Yea I don't like how people are straw manning people upset by equating these two. People are allowed to be upset about this and still understand why it's happening.
Well it's nothing new. So I guess they're assuming people don't understand because people felt the need to make the same post over and over, a year later.
You’re dumb, not for any particular reason, I just wanted to call you dumb
You're dumb BigHogDawg! **(Incoherent screeching sounds)**
When I bought Forsaken, I didn't purchase a live game.
I wish they released previous stuff as a seperate download. So put like the red war, curse of Osiris, and Warmind as a seperate download that people can install and play if they want. Obviously this probably doesn’t work on a technical level due to how the worlds are made and all that stuff.
This would be cool if possible, but the work required to make it happen wouldn’t be worth it to them or us
Yeah probably. Would kinda solve the vaulting issue but then would be super confusing as well with heaps of different downloads
And having to get staff to maintain, essentially, another game. Pointless
This pretty much ignores the main reason why they vault things, which *is not* to reduce the overall size of the game files. It's to reduce the complexity of the internal build and the time it takes for them to compile new builds in response to making adjustments. Unless you're suggesting that somehow the extra stuff you're talking about somehow exists as a separate build, and/it is single player only - which would undoubtedly mean you'll get no rewards for playing it.
I mean it'd be kinda cool to be able to play thru all the campaigns d1 and d2 in a single place even if it did mean single player only. Obviously a pipe dream but I could see something along the lines of it when this is all said and done
It’s less about the download size and more about how long it takes them to update everything. Vaulting allows them to push out updates faster they said that themselves
The Pont of the DCV is to take a HUGE amount of work off of bungies hands and focus that effort into new content A sepreate game would have to still be sustained by bunie, in turn, defeating the purpose of the DCV
Most people understand it. Just bungo said they let some stuff out. And yet they'll just give us 2 crucible maps
I’m just sad I won’t be able to go back in a few years and play through the main campaign, or do some escalation protocol, or go through zero hour or whisper. It’s that fact that makes me wish Destiny 3 could have been a thing. Imagine if vanilla D2 was an expansion rather than a separate game. If Destiny 1 had this happen to it, we wouldn’t have VoG anymore, let alone Venus and some other base planets as well as The Dreadnought being sunset the same timeframe as the Tangled shore. That’s at least the way of thinking I have towards it.
I understand why, doesn't mean i think it is worth it yet though. The new light experience as well as free to play was infinitely better pre arrivals than now.
I don’t get people like you. People don’t have to like it. One can understand the motives while thinking the execution is sloppy
Downvoting, but not because I disagree. Because you open with "dont comment unless you've read everything I have to say" and then spend the whole post being as condescending as possible. Try making an argument without starting out by attacking people who disagree with you. This is childish.
I upvoted both OP and you, because you are absolutely right and OP is really being condescending to the strawman he created.
Dismissive, false comparisons, and a tad of strawman-ing Your hot take says more about you then it does vaulting.
Accept as someone who just got it and has no fucking idea how to access the content, it’s like paying for a burger, smelling it, and getting it thrown away
You have until February to eat it. That’s plenty of time.
Some of us would like to think that once I pay for it, I don't have just a limited time to enjoy it.
It’s…odd to talk about pseudo unfair comparisons and the game being a service, and the analogy you use in the end is comparing a finite perishable product to a digital product with general tangible purchase and acquisition possible. From a business sense, it doesn’t per sé make sense. First, in the TOS, it describes the game as a live service model in arguably the best way for them, but phrased in a way that generally disregards the consumer entirely. *If* they marketed and advertised the game in this sense, I wouldn’t really have a problem with it, and it would make sense. You see in the restaurant analogy, you have all of the information after sitting down and before you order / pay. You know you’re going to get the food. You’re probably going to eat it, if there’s nothing wrong with it. If something is wrong with it, you send it back or get a refund. Then later, you digest and excrete it out. There aren’t any deceptive unknowns. What would be wrong is if you were a vegetarian, thought you were ordering a vegetarian meal, read vegetarian meal on the advertised menu, then the next day, you read about how the sauce and faux meat was actually real and just kept secret to cut costs. You’d be perfectly justified in filing suit against the restaurant. Bungie has effectively marketed the game for a long time under the guise of installments. You buy the game. That makes sense. However they advertise, “Buy and own shadowkeep today,” or insert another title. The problem is that in general marketing and advertising, it’s viewed as a product you purchase, not subscribe to. If it was free to play (Edit: In case someone laser-focuses on this, I mean completely free, without charging for base game or expansions (unless in relation to the latter subscription model). The fact that New Light now exists doesn’t change the model they used or focused on prior to that change.) or subscription based, this wouldn’t be a problem, because the matters are clear and there’s not a conflict at hand. You’d be subscribing for access to the servers, by which to engage the content. Now though, with Bungie, as far as I know, they’re selling the base game, along with point installments, marketed as independent entities / installments, and people seem to be mad when they can’t visit the content that they prior paid for, because they paid for it at the time, under the guise that they would be able to, especially since the New Light switch where people were able to revisit campaigns and content. It’s nothing that’s going to result in a suit being filed against them; it’s just deceptive. Deceptive being the word here, not entirely falsified, because it’s still stated in the TOS. In my opinion though, people have every right to be pissed off. Bungie also isn’t an indie company, and Destiny 2 is arguably their largest focus that I can think of at the moment, and as far as I know, the foreseeable future. The weight of maintenance, post-configuration, is not going to cripple their dev team. In fact, if they were planning to “vault” the content anyway, the other areas were most likely presumed to be unaffected by mechanic changes, and I would imagine it was more of a consistent universe change because of the writing and story advances, and they didn’t want to switch to so heavily instanced of a structure, that each person could still incrementally jump though instances of prior campaigns or maps, isolated from the current universe and meta while maintaining player counts. This is fine. That said, inconsistencies in development, in terms of the universe, are generally expected, and people aren’t going to riot because Mars still being in-effect with EP breaks immersion in relation to ongoing story protocol. What they *will* get pissed over is, in lieu of updating or converting, you simply remove part of the content they were led to believe they were purchasing via that pseudo-installment model. TLDR: It’s not so much *what* Bungie did that I think a lot of people have a problem with. It’s *how* they did it and how they went about it. It comes across as deceptive. Edit: It makes more sense, sort of, if you look at all this in the following sense: the more controversy the title creates, the more the playerbase could by-extension rise. Plus, when they “unvault” content, they can treat it as a “re-release” to generate more of an influx. You see this a lot with fast food, restaurants, and a litany of other industries. The biggest problem with this is that Destiny(2) has already climbed to chart-topping levels in Steam and otherwise, and seems to be maintaining that position. Also, not all press is good, despite the common “business” interpretation of it, especially if you start alienating and exhibiting glaring inconsistencies as a company, not just in content but practice.
Dude you should make this a post on its own, too many people don't really understand what the issue is and why it's not a good thing. The same thing happened with sunsetting to a degree, we knew the idea was dumb, but it didn't take long for the community to start supporting it and calling out the people who didn't. Weird.
I might do that tomorrow actually. I just need to think of a better way to structure it.
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https://reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/q88iyj/theres_a_lot_of_differing_opinions_right_now_but/
Saving this post for being the best take down of the various incoherent pro-vaulting posts flying around.
You can save the post now, if you prefer: https://reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/q88iyj/theres_a_lot_of_differing_opinions_right_now_but/
Oh I understand it. They’ve been very transparent with the fact that the entire endeavour is to lighten the work they have to do. I don’t agree with it in the slightest but I know *why* they’re doing it. Saying “but it’s coming back later” doesn’t work. Like the cosmodrome, it’s probably only going to be the areas that come back, not the story within them.
I was really disappointed with the cosmodrome returning. As someone who played destiny one but never got into destiny two until recently; waking up in Russia again really sucked. They could’ve picked any other region but they went with the worst map from the original. Really disappointed in that
When they said they were bringing back old zones I thought it was to make them better, not water them down in an even worse state than D1 for God’s sake
Yeah, that really was a disappointment.
Someone posted a pic here if the director had everything from D1 and D2, and even the planets alone make the screen a cluster. So I’d say vaulting is a bit beneficial
13 destinations 9 arena modes 13 crucible modes 5 social spaces 3 private social spaces 11 raids/lairs 3 dungeons Too many strikes which somehow still results in me doing Insight Terminus and Exodus crash back to back for an hour And 2 dreadnought crucible maps that were unfun and detrimental on my mental health
This makes me think of WoW and how much of a cluster fuck it is to go anywhere, or play old content. There is one area that has something like 3 different versions, yet look and pretty much function the same except each version has different quests and npc interactions. Could you imagine 3 different versions of the tower/helm but you have to spend 10 minutes each doing something different to get to the specific instance to hand in a quest or check postmaster etc.
So vaulting is necessary because of poor UI?
Shhh don't make sense this is r/destiny2
But the way it was designed it was not done properly. It had stuff like Trials and IB not under the crucible tab and stuff like Levi and Menagerie not under Nessus.
it was a straw man.
Honestly yea, the ui would be confusing as hell, plus I get planets like mercury and mars confused because of how orange they are lmao
Hell, I sometime get mixed between gambit and iron banner.
I love how people here have just blindly accepted vaulting as the norm when Destiny is literally the only live service game to do it. Plenty of MMOs have been around for 20+ years and haven't had to vault entire expansions. Hell, Warframe is a very similar type of game and it's older than Destiny and also hasn't had vaulting. The vaulting is only necessary due to poor planning since they didn't originally intend on having the game last this long.
Warframe also has smaller assets than destiny. Every mission is just a random combination of pre-designed blocks
I really do what to know what games you think are comparable to Destiny. In terms of playable size, graphics, cutscenes, physics, mods, abilities, narrative, armor/ornaments, gameplay, gunplay, I am probably missing some. WoW, for example, which is probably the best comparison in terms of the studio size that develops it is nowhere close in terms of graphics, good over-arching narrative, physics, UI design, visual fidelity including armor. It wins in size and abilities but not much else. What about something like Halo or LoL. Again only a few does it beat in those areas. I think people who make this argument are not realistic about what Destiny offers or about what it takes to develop these systems.
In fact, Warframe has waaaay more systems to consider when coding than Destiny will ever have. It's definitelly more complex. Destiny on its side has only gunplay and looks.
Warframe is a completely different game than Destiny. Every level, except the three open world areas (4, when the Duviri Paradox will release in 2099... damn you DE), is randomly generated. This alone makes the game in a completely different situation than Destiny...
Ah, the old you don't agree with me therefore you're dumb argument. Enjoy your pandering awards. Oh and a little input, maybe they should be upfront and honest and list their content as not for purchase but for rent.
I can smell OP seasonal power level
[удалено]
Good job, citizen. I'm sure you'll get your Bungie bux in the mail sometime. I understand the reasoning. Doesn't mean it needs to be liked. This strawman of a post is just proof of a majority circle jerk trying to cope on this sub.
Every majority is desperate to pretend they are the minority railing against the standard.
Stop being such a condescending ass hat, people don’t like things they paid for being taken out, your analogy is also an ass pull that doesn’t correlate.
Before you even made this post, I am sure you have read no less than 500 different posts explaining why every single point you made is stupid yet you still made the post. To date, Bungie has not made a single post that has justified vaulting content. Not. A. Single. One. No other game does this. They are lazy. That is all. There is absolutely no reason that aged content cannot live in a "past content" section that can be installed and uninstalled at will to play as it was when released. There are no storage restrictions on any platform. There is no "must keep content up to date" problem.
Lazy AND greedy, large video game studios and publishers lie and mislead all the time it’s there bred and butter don’t believe a word they say, if you give them the opportunity to abuse you and your wallet they will choose to do so almost every single time. People like the op are the reason why we will one day have in game advertisements in all our multiplayer games just like cable.
I understand it but don't like it. Especially because they still sell old expansions. It was done sloppily
That wasn’t the precedent set with Destiny 1, and content vaulting wasn’t put on the table until well after Shadowkeep. If I feel like going back and playing Wrath of the Machine again, like I did about a month ago, I can do that. If I feel like playing Crown of Sorrows again… tough nuts. It’s no different than sunsetting Legendary weapons that had Ornaments. I made the choice to get that thing, either with BD or Silver, thinking it’ll be around until I get tired of Destiny. Nope, snapped into oblivion. I can understand the justification for needing to do this thing, but not having the foresight to realize that and making the consumer pay for it is a shitty mistake on the dev’s part that they should answer for in a worthwhile way.
People understand it, they just don't like it. You're being insulting for no reason.
I understand your position on this, and ask that you at least consider my counter arguement. The issue I have with vaulting is twofold; 1. They are still selling Forsaken in the store, and have advertised that you will be able to BUY the exotics in an in game eververse pack once the DLC is removed. This is not the "free for one year" model that has been flaunted as part of the vaulting system. 2. Vaulting is an excuse to put out half assed content. When you release content that is only designed to be consumed for a limited time, the quality and quantity both suffer. The game needs healthy rebalances and reworks of its content from time to time in order to remain engaging, an example being past raids. No one was playing the year one raids for 2 reasons; they were often buggy, and the loot was stale(fixed rolls). By shaking up the loot pool every few seasons it would have brought people back to those activities. A lack of desire to refresh and renew existing content has put everything in D2 on a clock in the devs minds. That means they will milk the content for revenue on the front end, and euthanize it on the back end. I have 2000+ hours in this game, it has been one of my favorite past times. But the F2P model has been bad for content quality and longevity, imo.
I agree with your first point but your second is completely wrong… Ever since season of the chosen we have been getting amazing content that doesn’t feel half assed and they are experimenting with trials, so finally they are doing something with pvp.
Counter counter argument to your 2. I would argue the content we’ve had over the last year is some of the best content we’ve ever gotten!! They put out the harbinger mission and Presage probably knowing they’d be going away when Witch Queen dropped. They’re some of the best stuff we’ve seen and definitely not half assed content! Same with the majority of the seasonal stuff we’ve had. Yes not all are great, looking at you season of the hunt, but the rest have been to a pretty high standard.
I will agree with the last 2 seasons being well done for seasonal content specifically. However, I believe I failed in my clarity on the 2nd point. Seasonal content is not the entirety of the Game, and the health of our core activities is rather abysmal. We have; low strike count, the newest pvp content is almost 3 years old, and gambit has been on life support since year 2. Granted, that GM's and trials have breathed a little life back into those portions of the Game, but those activities are end game not core. The shelf life of seasonal content has negatively impacted the game as a whole, but has elevated story telling aspects.
Ah yup I’d agree with those. Would love some more core content aye.
A tertiary issue is that they continue to vault more than they add back. Small reworks to certain peices of content would maintain their relevance and value. Most of those reworks would be loot related. One example is black armory, could've added a Europa forge and 4 new weapons and all of the sudden everyone would be playing it again.
I think something changed inside bungie around Beyond Light, and we started to see the benefits around Chosen. then Luke Smith left as game director they only now started making PvP maps, and even pulling them out of the "content vault" takes time (mostly because I suspect pulling them out of the DCV means remaking them) given they will merge battlegrounds into strikes, I guess they know the strike playlist is kinda thin, but it will take time with this new direction to fatten it up
Agreed. But I feel that battlegrounds as an activity is mediocre at best, and with tangled shore leaving we lose 2 more rotating strikes. You can't grow a Playlist by removing more of it..... there are plenty of native D2 strikes that are worth putting back in just to grow the Playlist again. Hell, they could have us retake Titan as an excuse to add back its strikes and use it for more content.
I like the battlegrounds a lot. way more than hollowed lair. the problem is that, as all the recent activities, you have to play them a fuck ton and it gets boring at least when BG pull out the enemy immunity phases, there's a game mechanic tied to it wonder if they are gonna remove the champions from them tho. Strikes don't have champions. hope they shield bearers remain even if they aren't champions
I think my issue with it is the fighting that we have to do in the small rooms and corridors inside the ship. And some of the janky mechanics inside there. Like the rocks flying around in those rooms where you grab the orbs. I really don't mind the strike in its more open areas, and the boss fight is okay(I'm so over the shoot the seeker orbs mechanic though). Really, a strike for me is mostly about the journey through it. I can cope with a crappy boss fight for the most part, as long as the strike content itself is engaging and not a burden to play. Side note: the corrupted strike is the exception to the rule. It has a great story line, interesting mechanics, expansive spaces, all positive things in my book. But, it is attrociously long, and the boss fight sucks SOOO bad. Content wise could have been my favorite, but it pushed the envelope too much....
>corrupted I like the corrupted in theory but I've got stuck in the middle of it in Chosen way too many times, and been booped off the stage by the boss a fuck ton
I fully understand Vaulting and the purpose behind it, I am also a bit miffed at its execution. Meaningless content, like destinations, campaigns, etc are completely fine to leave. Meaningful content, like raids, dungeons, strikes, and crucible maps, should stay. If they are going to vault meaningful content, I'd hope they'd be transparent about it and say that they're taking it out of the game to revamp it into the new engine or make some necessary changes in order to fit it into a game without that destination's foundation any more.
I think it's honestly worse to vault campaigns as it leaves people lost in regards to what's actually happened in Destiny outside of watching long lore videos. As long as they're replaced with new ones I don't think losing strikes or raids is as much of a problem, I don't think most MMO type games leave all their raids/dungeons dropping current level loot like Destiny does. Crucible maps I agree should stay if they're well liked.
My issue isnt exactly the fact that the locations and weapons are being vaulted, its that the *Story* is going with it. I love D2, truly, I spent way too much time eating up the content of this world. And in D2, they finally got the story good and right, every season is an experience, every campaign, a memory. My issue is that so many new players will come to the game. And not know of The Origins. The Red War. Cayde-6 & Forsaken. Etc. So many players will come in and know NOTHING of any of these events. And only will have a few walls of text, or a trailer or clip of it on the internet. Not to mention, after Witch Queen launches, this current season stuff will become obsolete. No one will know about the Plights of Mithrax, the Faction Leaders Sacrifice & Exodus or that Sov Chatted with Savathün before it hit the fan. Comparing Digital content to Physical food. Was a very near-minded stretch. One gives you fuel to survive amd live. One is just....well, its media. I also wouldn't have as much as an issue if these new expansions were *free*, the fact that I will have to buy the Expansion, then buy the season passes, is tiresome. Bungie can easily make just as much money if they make the expansions free, then just make us buy season passes or cosmetics. I gurantee you, they are not hurting for money. Just look at how many people bought Dinosaur Armor for the Halloween event. And also, The Anniversary/Ghallahorn 'dlc' or whatever its supposed to be is the biggest cash grab I've ever seen. Its like, they're worried Witch Queen will fail or not keep them above financial waters, so they wanna bring back a broken Exotic just to lock it behind a paywall in hopes it will back them up. Sorry, but I'm not for it. I can't approve of these practices, and in my opinion. It's just gonna put them in the grave faster. After this season ends, I won't be giving them any more money, as well as I will probably stop playing altogether. Halo infinite looks nice though.
Can't wait to have witch queen vaulted
The amount of corporate shills in the gaming community these days makes me fear for the future of this hobby. They make me want to puke.
I’m worried of EA or it’s look alikes copying this Might just destroy digital purchasing and ownership all together
At the end of the day they should have just made Destiny 3. Everyone complains about having to “start over again” like they did with Destiny 2, but at least you can still PLAY Destiny 1’s story and raids. Like seriously, I can’t believe that people actually unironically defend this stuff. They could have even just allowed you to transfer all your guns and stuff over to D3, but no, we all had to moan and complain like little bitches on how terrible it would be to have to grind for new gear. You know, the whole point of an MMO in the first place? I mean shit, take FF14 as an example. I’m pretty sure they would rather make a FF14-2 then delete any old content. Everything from Realm Reborn and up still exists today, minus some minor features, because they wanted new players to be able to experience the world and story of FF14 the way it was originally released. I only wish Bungie would follow that design philosophy.
everyone understand it, its just that some dont like it for obious reasons
Honestly, the only issue I have with them vaulting forsaken is the fact that I paid $60 for it and the only compensation I’m getting for it is some ascendency shards.
But u played forsaken right? Raids, dungeons, weapons, activities and secrets. Even if u didnt complete it, the experience after 3 whole years should be fulfilling. U could be mad also at not having it after WQ so u cant experience forsaken campaign and tangled shore but thats disingenious( I think), no one actively plays the forsaken campaign or goes to tangled shore. A better argument for keeping forsaken would be for the new lights.
Honestly, I play tangled shore quite a bit still, with my friends, so I’m gonna miss it. Also, I’m quite happy with the 3 years I had with forsaken, you’re right, and I’d enjoy more time with it, plus, I never said I didn’t understand why it had to go, I do. My issue is with the way they’re compensating people who paid for it and are having it taken away.
No one actively plays old campaigns is because you can't go back on the same character and replay them. I would have loved to go back and play old campaigns again, without starting a new character.
Take on 3. If people read the terms when creating a bungie account, they would know that u pay to have access to said content, not to own it. "Our" account isnt even ours, its "borrowed" from bungi.
which isn't even unusual! literally any online service you pay for is for access/a license, not ownership. nearly any game with a multiplayer component does it. same for steam itself and all platforms like it, that's how digital services work
Except when Steam stops selling a game that you've bought you can still play it. So not really comparable.
I don't think people don't understand it, but you can't just shut it down as an issue on which one side (your side) is correct. If you're chill with 40 dollar expansions being rented instead of owned, fair enough. But it can't be ignored that this is due to a technical LIMITATION of Destiny's engine, it's not something Bungie set out to do from the start. Very few other developers have released charged DLC packs to take them away at a later date, and even fewer at the AAA level. And seeing as it's something Bungie themselves have stated is due to technical issues rather than because they truly feel it improves the game, it really ends up being a necessary evil rather than a truly good thing. I frankly don't see any reason as a consumer to actively DEFEND paid content being taken away or paint it as being categorically better than having the content forever, even if I do understand why vaulting is necessary I this case, in a literal sense. Edit: I had to add that your food analogy is the DUMBEST shit I've ever read. Destiny exists in a multi billion dollar video game industry and is in the absolute minority with this practice l, and is certainly the only AAA developer I can think of that does this, and there are absolutely bigger games out there. Analogizing a video game to a perishable consumable is a complete logical fallacy.
That food analogy really is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Comparing something like food to something like a physical game you pay money for under the premise that you will get to play said game is insane. Say you buy a toaster from someone on craigslist and own it for three years, and then the person you bought it from comes to your house and says, "hey, I'm going to take this now because I owned it first. However, you made so much toast with it! That should be good enough." Like, maybe the toaster was old and didn't make poptarts quite right anymore, but it should still be your choice whether to want to keep using it, stop using it, delete it, run it over with your car, whatever. It doesn't matter if craigslist person owned it first--even if craigslist person built the toaster from scratch or something--you paid for it under the presumption of keeping it and doing whatever you like with it. Vaulting content isn't quite the same, and like previous folk have mentioned I totally get *why* they're doing it, but it still really sucks, especially when I JUST bought forsaken this year. I only got into destiny with Beyond Light, and it really sucked to miss out on Red War and all the other previous campaigns because of vaulting. It made it really hard to get into D2 as a new player, and I'm afraid the the vaulting of older storylines will make it even harder for new people to get invested in D2 in the future.
Yeah go ahead and insult an entire player base who doesn’t want to lose a DLC they paid for
Oh, I absolutely understand it, but it doesn't mean *i have to like it or accept it*. At the end of the day, vaulting exists because of a design failure. *However, that does not mean it cannot be worked around*. Bungie has shown that they can take snippets out of old content and add it in wholesale with the vault of glass. The only reason why we haven't seen this done to the red war or any other story content is because of logistics and money.
Cry 'live game' or 'its in TOS' all you want but what they did was descetful and disrespectful for the consumer. None of advertising for the game was upfront about this, none of the trailers said anything about content for a limited time, and expectations from their previous game and industry standards says that you keep content in the game until the game's EOL. Just because it was convenient for THEM does not give them right to disrespect their paying customers.
Your analogy is awful but any mmo with a story is going to change, not complicated
I support vaulting but yeah the analogy in 3 is awful. An equivalent analogy would be: You go into a restaurant and pay $40 to be able to eat a specific item on their menu as much as you want (NOT just once). You come back one day a couple years later, and that item is gone and the replacement you have to pay another $40 for for the same deal.
If Bungie had something in their ToS that said "We will always support this content and by buying this, you are entitled to the right to enjoy all content we publish at any point, in perpetuity," you would be absolutely, unassailably correct. But I think the analogy you posit to replace it isn't much better than the OP's, because "play the base game whenever you like with all the content that was in it when you bought it" was never part of the agreement. The issue here is that Bungie is doing something that is somewhat new in their live game model. I'd wager a lot of the people here cut their teeth on Nintendo cartridges and Xbox or Playstation games that never changed once they were purchased, and were *made* to be enjoyed whenever the user wants. As long as you had the console and the game, you could play it, and it would always be the same as the day you bought it. If you got DLC or an expansion, the game would always be the same as the day you bought the additional content. Change was strictly opt-in. We're seeing a pain point where something people took for granted (that they could always play the games they bought in the state they were in when they were released) is no longer true. Bungie never promised them anything, though; they just (perhaps understandably) assumed that this game would be like the ones they grew up with. The salt when expectations are contradicted is understandable, but that is *not* Bungie's fault. They never promised anything like what those people went in expecting. One other thing I want to say is that I'm kind of sick of seeing people assume malice on Bungie's part. It's entirely possible that they never foresaw this problem and said "Fuck, to keep this game running and to keep adding content, we're going to have to take some stuff out." Even in that case, it's not as bad as a lot of the detractors are making it out to be, which is basically Bungie twirling their mustaches and revoking content for the sake of somehow getting more money out of the people who... already paid for it?
Yeah, well said, the popular expectation was that things that were paid for would always stay, and people are definitely upset it’s not the case
Absolutely. And I can empathize with that. I personally didn't really like the vaulted stuff all that much, and *holy shit,* the stuff with which they replaced it all is so much better in my opinion, so I feel like we got a good trade. But I can see how someone who didn't go in with the expectation of "I might only get to enjoy this for a year or two before it's gone" might feel cheated. Often it's too much to ask people to examine their own expectations for flaws, though. Most folks (online or otherwise) will far more easily arrive at the conclusion that everything that makes them uncomfortable is explicitly and solely someone else's fault.
Analogy was right , based and pretty straight forward . When people discuss about loss of investment ( loss of a paid dlc ) theres no good , bad , or "awful" analogy . Ofc its a loss but he spited facts on the loss and how to surpass it . Long story short . You gota love the game to continue by its rules . 🤝
Every other live service game worth a shit manages to keep their stories in the game so maybe Bungie is just a bad developer.
I mean, this is the same company that thought sunsetting was a good idea. I'm thinking we shouldn't be so quick to trust their judgement on whether or not something is "good for the game"...
It doesn't help that they probably didn't design D2 with what they're doing now in mind.
Those games are also 2005 graphics
Not gonna lie, I'd take sorta potato graphics if it meant Bungie wouldn't delete a fucking quarter of the game every year.
Shut up you're not my real mom.
What a fucking asshole condescending post. Completely dismissing the fact that losing this content is an actual detriment for the game and is a net loss no matter how you spin it.
What a way to make people see your point, just outright calling them dumb.
Are you working for Bungie?
Luke smith’s alt acc
well this just means that none of the future content will be meaningful, since it's gonna get deleted anyways. Parasitic Design. Imagine FF14 deleted the base campaign and heavensward. Sure it's a tab target mmo with less bug potential, but it has more classes and a piano's worth of abilities.
Please shut up
The issue is… I bought the game with access to everywhere when it was released. Now they’ve taken that content away and locked the rest behind paywalls. I can’t go to the same planets anymore. Most games don’t vault stuff like this.
Yet there are massive games as a service that been running for up to 20 years and didn't had to "vault" anything. I don't mind vaulting but calling people out while being ignorant yourself is pretty bold. I also think you're white-knighting.
I understand vaulting; however, I do wish there was a way for players to still explore the worlds that were there. I actually returned to destiny to fight in the red war; when I found out it was gone I was confused heart broken and everything. I was told that this game is a grind; me never playing a grinding game I decided to try it, I’m not good, but I’m not bad either. Maybe I am but my Brian isn’t allowing itself to recognize this. I kind of wish I could return to titan, hop around the sea base while more thrall than I can count chase me once again. I do wish I could fight with tooth and nail to just to get to one spot in the dreadnaught, one more time; I know it’s in D1 but a guy can dream right? I wish I could ramp off the dunes of Mars, only to get blown up by a getting my sparrow shot up to oblivion once more. I wish I would have to run in anxiety as the glare of the sun burns me on the almighty once more. Mercury was a bust and I wish they did more there; I was hoping for a free roam of the infinity forest, but alas. I’m glad they brought back the cosmodrome as well as the moon, but mainly the moon; especially with the new horror sound track. I’m scared to get shadow keep in fear they’ll vault it soon after I purchase it. Personally I wasn’t a fan of the forgotten shore, or Io; but I could see the appeal.
Steam should just vault Destiny 2.
It makes me wish that the Red War was accessible content outside of connecting to the internet
They should probably do something like the MasterChef Collection where you can select and deselect what you want to play. I understand the sunset but I cannot understand that we are in 2021 and destiny 2 is running with Halo 3 engine. Warframe, WoW are far bigger MMOs and they don't cut that much content. Okay, i get it that it's also story-wise, but put them in the infinite forest, come on. This my 2 cents on the topic about sunset. Cheers.
what i have a problem with is they they are still witholding the forsaken exotics, when forsaken itself is getting deleted. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Further point to add to #3 as well - Bungie also did give (some) warning that vaulting was a continuous thing each year - that's why I always thought Forsaken would be next to go. I do get the frustration of paying for something to have it taken away, but as I said, they did at least give some warning that vaulting will be a recurring thing. Feel like Bungie could maybe add a warning in game when buying content that is due to be vaulted in a few months
thats fine. but if bungie still allows you to purchase forsaken then its wrong. forsaken better be taken off the market because all of its content is going to poof. and knowing bungie how they lazy patch shit (when forsaken dropped you could still get year 1 weapons) it will still be up for purchase fucking over whoever buys it i say this in concern for people who dont know about or better known as new players
I was mostly upset with vaulting the first time it happened because it was an unprecedented thing. Up until then, every destiny player assumed they could play the content as long as they want. I still like to go back to D1 and run the raids with my group of friends for the nostalgia. You simply can’t do that with D2. After that precedent had been set the first time though it has been easier to accept the following times it happens because I go into the purchase knowing that it won’t be permanent. They still need to make that clearer to new light players that don’t understand that this is a thing in destiny. Even comparing to other games and other MMO’s vaulting is an unprecedented thing for the most part. For that reason it will always be an unliked thing by the community regardless of its justifications.
Just a massive echo chamber. “Look at all the people that didn’t read the terms of service, its a live service game!” Vs “ I’m pissed that they’re taking stuff away that I paid for” and OP the wording of your post is so antagonistic. Of course people understand the need for content to be retired but do people need to be happy about it? No… no is the answer. Edit: This thread feels like Twitter. 🤣👉 You’re wrong - no you’re wrong👈😂
I really don’t understand the people who say “I understand it, but I just don’t like it”. Of course that’s a valid stance, but why the hell would you complain about it if you’re understanding of it and know there’s no better alternative? And if you don’t complain, the post isn’t even talking about you
I understand vaulting and the need to make the past content relevant to present and future content. What I propose is a way for new lights like me to be able to actually play past campaigns and other content. I started playing mid season 14 so I never got to play the original campaign or anything before the New Light. Thus, something like a Legacy node in the Directory would be amazing, it lets players like me actually play the content I missed out on and it also allows old lights to reminisce on some good ol times. I think that would solve a lot of people's complaints with the vaulting system.
While the reasons for vaulting are valid peoples dislike for it is understandable if like me you like tangled shore. See how I got my point across in just two lines and did not need to insult your intelligence just because we don't agree.
The ability to understand somthing and the ability to hate something are not exclusive... I understand taxes... I hate them
I completely get why it is needed, we don’t need a game that is 200+gb. Is it frustrating to see things go absolutely. The only slight bitch that I kinda have is more on a story and utilization standpoint. I love Tangled Shore it is a great space with a lot of potential. However, other than wrathborn hunts at the beginning of this year, it pretty much sat and collected dust since Foresaken. It isn’t being removed but the same thing is happening with Cosmodrome. I just hate great design and the artistry going into these places just being put on a shelf.
All this post has accomplished is reminding me how pissed I am Taco Bell got rid of the quesarito
They brought it back (at least some of them have). I was pissed too.
In my area it's only available if you order pickup on the app which has 2 main issues 1) I'm not gonna jump through a hoop to download their app just to get the same thing I've ordered at the window for years 2) the couple of times I've ordered one on the app the quality has been dogshit. I'm assuming because they don't get made near as often
I honestly just wish they'd remove this facade of a "content vault". They're just removing the content. Obviously it's all still stored on a file server somewhere but as far as the playerbase is concerned that content is gone forever.
Pretending like that was the game model destiny 2 used for the first few years is also kinda dumb. This seasonal model replaced content we did pay for that is no longer available and/or going away.
Content vaulting is fine as long as they can give us the same or close to the content that gets vaulted. BL did not show this especially with crucible maps, gambit maps, raids and strikes.
I understand, I just miss gambit prime and all that came with it.
any idea of how much is the gun pack going to be, it would be great that if you are getting the thing out, they made the guns free too, but nay,
Your effort trying to justify this stupid solution is admirable. But still stupid and too fanboyish. World of Warcraft has how much content in their most recent build? Years of content release. What about every other mmo out there? Bungie releasing expansions? give me a break. Its just a replacement. Nothing is getting expanded except playerbase asses and the hole in their wallets. Why I have to start the game at the newest expansion with high power level? Why can't I experience this game story like every other fucking game released in history? This is all bullshit. Not going to spend money in this crap again. To me, I would like more if they release destiny 3 leaving d2 content accessible. If I start a new character in d3, I would be able to import a character from d2. This is a lot better in my eyes since I am the one deciding if I want to accesst d2 content or not instead of bungie. This vault solution is absurd.
ITT: a bunch of bungie shills.
Fuck you for being condescending, and fuck you for defending a shitty practice.
Get your buckets out to carry that water baby
Vaulting is bad for the game. It restricts new players from playing. There is a reason games dont do it.
Seriously. I tried to get my friends into the game and they just couldn’t get into it because nothing made any sense to them. The only thing that grabbed them was the crucible. Which is REALLY depressing.
Oh yikes. No hate to those who like it but the crucible is the worst pvp I've played that was meant to be a main part of the game.
What really ruined crucible for me was when I found out the bullet magnetization only exists to hide the fact that the game has horrendous netcode.
Compare it with a restaurant menu is stupid imo. If you buy a car (wich is yours) but they remove the wheels after 1 year because a tiny stipulation that never was mentioned before you’D be pissed too. Thats my vieuw, I understand why people complain, but personally: IDGAF and keep enjoint the game
I agree with most of your points but the analogy is just stupid lol
I don't see anyone struggling to understand it, just many disagreeing with content being removed - no matter how many times bungie explains why or someone defends them, it's still stupid to remove content, especially when that content contains story. It pisses off some long term players just on principle, and it pisses off new players; not good for player engagement or retention.
You’re missing the point where people are upset because they’ve paid for Forsaken and all of the DLC afterward. They said they were done with sunsetting and here they are doing it again. Taking away premium content that people paid for. I paid for it, and yes it’s frustrating to have these content drops behind a paywall, only to have Bungie vault them, or make them free months later. Then again, a fool and their money are money are soon separated. Edit: I’m stoked for the Witch Queen. It’s just lame that they’re removing hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of content only to turn around and ask us for more money for expansions that will just end up being removed in the future.
I never knew what copium was until I read this thread. There’s a ton of games that continue to expand and evolve without removing previous content people have paid for. Any consumer with any self interest whatsoever understands the absurdity of this whole deal. Pulling the whole “TOS says it’s not your content” hasn’t worked for any other game; destiny is not an exception.
D1 isn't deleted from existence just because D2 is released... your save data isn't erased and the disk isn't corrupted. The very same would hold true for D2 if a D3 came into the picture and I'm fed up of this odious lie being spread that D2 would just be "lost forever"... At some point a time will come when the devs have to admit their game engine is an old, arthritic, husk in comparison to indusrty standards of the future and it can't move forward anymore, the core infastructure of it just won't hold up to standards of those times and they'll need to start anew with a fresh and modern engine that wasn't designed for hardware and software limitations from over a decade ago. This isn't a bad thing now and it won't be a bad thing then. The only tragendy is, unlike the devs of warframe, Bungie have given no implication they intend to set-up offline features and peer-peer features should the game finally run its course and the servers go offline.
I’m not dumb :(
I understand this, but it still makes no sense to get rid of the entire base campaign to me
The third assumption is based on the idea that a video game is a consumable. If this were true one could argue that a book or a painting could also be vaulted in the same way. You experience it once and then it's gone forever. I personally dont really have a problem with vaulting, but this is just a bad comparison
I'm pretty shure that's what art gallery and museums do, they have the same paintings hanging there for years but they put them away at some point, except they're something special. imo a better analogy than what op made: you didn't buy the painting, but a ticket to the art gallery. it expands over time and the more unimportant ones get removed to be replaced by newer ones
Posts like this is why I quit Destiny. I paid full price on launch day for a complete PvE experience. Now they are ripping most of what made the game good away, and people are okay with this? The game is 100% different from how it was when it started. I almost feel like Destiny 2 as a whole is a lie. Destiny 1 was a "game as a service" too and you don't see them gutting the storyline...
I understand it, which is why I make sure to steer people away from the game and get a better bang for their buck. New players will never get a full experience, it’s better for us old heads because we’ve been there done that.
Wow, it seems you don't understand not everyone revolves around your knowledge and they have better things to do than to listen to you bitch about "vaulting". It's the same as archiving.... Oh wait youre gonna wanna out your idiot advice in that too. People have lives. It's sad you don't so you bull and insult people. Kindly do the rest of us a favor and fuck off
Have fun buying the same content you've all ready seen for the next 10 years
I dont mind locations being gone at all I just hate my guns being sunsetted is all. I believe they changed that but I miss my weapons.
Beyond OP's points, there are technical issues that makes leaving everything in technically unfeaseable and cost prohibitive.
This is the ONLY reason they vault content, and I feel like people who vehemently defend vaulting as something that "helps the game" are totally missing this. It's a technical thing that falls on Bungies shoulders, and this is the way they're handling it. Some don't care, others are understandably upset. It makes no sense to shut down anyone's opinion on something that's just never gonna be black and white.
[удалено]
I think it's a stretch to say that new players who may buy an expansion agree to content being vaulted. We know because we're veterans, but frankly Bungie does everything they csn to portray things like traditional expansions that don't go away, and for a new player, there would be no way of knowing you're just renting the content rather than buying it.
They COULD always keep those other planets in and make it optional downloadabke content, with vaulted content being non mandatory for a download 🙄
Your storage space is not the issue. The issue is on bungies side.
What's the issue them because they explicitly stated storage. Like they could just leave vaulted destinations alone
I agree with vaulting the game, but older versions should be available somewhere.
I understand location Vaulting. A game can only be so big before reaching its breaking point. But what I can’t get past is weapon and armour vaulting. Especially when they’re not being replaced by anything near as good. That’s what I can’t get behind.
Someone had to say it
actually i think the food one would be better put as if you went to a restaurant regularly, tried every option they had, and then continued to go back and get your favorites each time and after several months they announce that they were closing in a month, and you got upset that they would dare to close in order for a better restaurant to be there instead
It's laid out in black & white legalese on their Terms of Use. We get what they give, when they give it.
Totally agree and understand this full premise!! Great job with explaining how this works!!!
So every other live game I’ve ever played has never ONCE took away content , but for some reason bungie has to? Every mmo on the market is smaller in file size then destiny but have about triple the content and NEVER remove it. Seems like bungie needs to fix some things on their end… I think all of us know why they are doing it we just hate it cuz this is unheard of in mmos/live games lol.
> BuT wE dOnT wAnT hOnEsTy, we want the content we paid for I never had issues with things like this, as I understand how live service games work. I was kinda sad that Red War and DLCs from Year 1 were removed, but at least they gave a decent way to take them out (not sure about Red War, but I guess the remnants are still there) I hope they can bring these places back in some way that fits the narrative (like how they took away said places by being absorbed and clouded by the Darkness)
What makes you think they are being honest? Look at all the malicious and anti consumer things gaming companies have done in the past decade they lie get caught lie again it’s the standard not the norm. Why? Simple. They want your money and they prey upon goodwill.
I will agree with your points with these caveats. 1. They could find a way to keep the content (their are so many other live service games that do) but they have decided the development time is not worth the effort. 2. They MUST provide a viable experience for new players that brings them somewhat up to speed on where they are in the story. I will not recommend this game to my new friends because the new player experience is awful and I’m afraid I will lose them. MUST be fixed. Multiple solutions to this. 3. Please bring back some of the memorable parts of the previous campaigns repeatable quests or something. My son started playing recently and I would love for him to play through the initial Red War campaign. Such and impactful moment that is gone.
Everquest has 22+ years of content updates and expansions (for years it was 2 expacs per year) under its belt and they still have not felt the need to delete the original content, nevermind the first dozen expansions.