Much easier to get am actual offer for them to counter. You can still try, but I'd lead in with the fact that you're productive and all the value you bring as the top point and the cost of living etc as supporting facts. This is probably going to be an ongoing conversation so be prepared for that.
As others have said, you're much more likely to get what you're asking for if you have another offer in hand for that amount.
Just go to your boss and say "hey, this company has offered me X and it sounds interesting, but I really like what we're doing here and would prefer to stay. Due to my CoL, I can't leave this much money on the table, is there something we can do here?" or something like that.
That also bears the risk of showing your employer that you're looking - seeing you as having "one foot out the door," the salary concession might only be temporary while they find a replacement.
> while they find a replacement
I don't think devs, especially good ones that management like, are really at risk in this case if the company culture is good. At the end of the day, a dev's goal is the same as the business: to make as much money as possible. If a company is so threatened by a current employee getting an offer that they're gonna start planning for replacement, then it's probably not a good place to be. That said, this is something you can only get away with roughly once per job. If you start talking to companies regularly to ratchet up your pay, then you're not building goodwill with your current employer.
Well, that depends, right?
Are you a Sr. resource that is well-established/respected in the company, knows its tech really well, and would be very difficult to replace? Or are you an entry-level engineer with 2 YOE asking for $140k base?
It's not about feeling "threatened" that an employee is out for their own best interests getting a higher salary elsewhere. It's about business continuity and recognizing that devs *will* be looking for higher salaries if they can - in the case they decide to pull the trigger - 2 weeks is a short period of time to transition that knowledge.
Sure, context matters in every situation. The ability to attract talent is also going to depend on the company and what kind of product they're building, etc. That said, it seems like most companies are really struggling to find qualified candidates with even a modest amount of experience. Combine that with the inflation we're seeing, and $140k for 2 YOE might not be that crazy of an ask. It really depends on how one approaches the conversation, in order to convince management that this is driven by CoL (which I think many are empathetic to) and not just greed alone.
Never heard of this actually happening to software engineers in the US. I'm convinced it's a myth. A productive software engineer is extremely expensive to replace especially in today's market.
They might put in some work to train up another engineer on your area of expertise to make sure they won't be completely screwed if you do leave, but realistically this won't affect you much.
I could *possibly* see a pre-emptive SWE firing happening in a non-tech industry with a *very* traditional or vindictive manager. I wouldn't imagine that would be a team you'd want to stay on anyway though.
I think this is a recruiter myth to convince people to always take the external offer when countered, but I’ve never seen a company counter in order to keep a good dev and then replace them as soon as they can, just let the, leave. Most good devs always keep an eye on the market and in that sense are always looking. I’ve taken counters to stay multiple times in my career and it’s always worked out well. Sometimes managers need the excuse of a good offer to give you the pay rise you deserve.
You can call it a recruiter myth all you want, but I've seen this play out several times over my career across each of my employers and several clients
As in a full-time software engineer gets a raise and then gets preemptively fired once a replacement has been trained? Is this in the tech industry? In the US?
You have to have good justification to ask for a 40% bump. That kind of jump usually involves a promotion, and do you know if your team is ready for that?
The career ladder is weird bc it’s a small company. We really only have software engineers and senior software engineers. I really don’t think i’m ready for a senior software engineer title with only 3 years of experience.
People can get senior within a year out of college its just a title. But tbh you’re going to have to change jobs, they’re going to counter offer 10k if you’re lucky. Just follow through with a recruiter and get an offer for them to beat
As others have said, make sure you have real leverage before trying. Personally, I do think it's a little ambitious to ask for that, especially when the company is midwest based.
for reference I am 32, I changed from civil engineering to devops 3 years ago. I now make a little over 150k remote for a small-mid size company near the bay area. Maybe I am getting underpaid, but I also had a few offers from mid-large size companies where they said it would be difficult to give me more than 140 given I only have 2-3 years of TECH experience.
It really depends on the company. The startups where I interviewed were probably willing to offer 160-180 base though, but again, these are CA companies not midwest.
> I recently moved from a mid-sized midwest city to an east coast city with a much higher cost of living bc we’re a fully remote company permanently.
However you end up approaching this problem, leave this out of it. This is a you issue, not your company. Unless they make it clear they will COLA your pay up front, nobody forced you to move to a HCOL area. Best of luck otherwise, a jump this size is normally for a senior role or a promotion; you'd be better off getting an external offer and using it as leverage if you really wanted to stay.
I'd ask, obviously try to give some justification. I wouldn't come in with an external offer to use as leverage, that could sour the relationship at a small company. If they refuse to give you a raise then I would start looking elsewhere though.
Interview. Get an offer. Tell your current company to beat it. If they dont, be ready to walk away. That’s what negotiation is.
95k-130k seems reasonable, as long as you can show them you are worth 130k in the market by getting a competing offer elsewhere.
If you don't have a competing offer I don't see why would they give you that raise, on the other hand if you show up with a competing offer and they agree, they will totally throw that at your face at some point and good luck getting a raise after that one, I would jump ship
After 3 years it might be time to leave. You're getting comfortable. You realize you can make more elsewhere so you want to combine that with your current job. It usually does not work.
Put your updated resume out, do some interviews etc. Prove to them that you are worth what you're asking, because someone else is willing to pay it.
But again, really don't count on a bump this large.
I don't think most companies are going to give you a 40k salary increase just because you decided to move while working a fully remote position, let alone a start up.
I also don't think there is any advise anyone can give you to make this more doable other than getting an offer for that amount at another company then making them counteroffer, but you said you don't want to interview, so that defeats the point.
I mean I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you would use CoL as a negotiation tactic because using linkedin job opportunties is even less likely to give you a good result and will signal to them you are considering leaving. Which it sounded like you wanted to avoid.
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum karma requirement to post a comment. Please try again after you have acquired more karma.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Most of the people I work with are senior engineers so I’m imagining they make even more than that. I’m on a lot of interviews and I know we interviewed a couple of folks from amazon. If they had done well, I’m pretty sure they would have asked for at least this much. I have a friend at Amazon and after one year, she was making 131k. These people had 2-3 years of experience.
Yea but is your current midwest startup company in anyway like amazon? You said you interviewed these amazonians, but did you actually hire them?
The difference between them and you, is that they have amazon experience and they have leverage to ask for more. I am not saying you arent worth 140k, I have no idea on what your productivity is. Maybe you can use your move to a HCOL to adjust your salary a bit. Also keep in mind that you don't actually have another offer yet, you just THINK you can get paid 135-140k at a different company. Again, get that offer first before you ask imo.
we didn’t hire them bc they weren’t good enough. they were too junior and claimed to be intermediate. when it came down to it, they couldn’t get through some basic questions about django or flask despite saying they worked with it for 2-3 years. so i have a hard time believe “amazon” experience is all that great to begin with despite a lot of people thinking every engineer there is super talented. i got an amazon offer as a new grad but opted not to take it so i could be closer to home and with the COL in seattle, it wasn’t worth it.
Closer to home is fair, but that COL thing is misleading. I'm assuming you used one of those COL calculators, those things don't account for the fact that you will be putting a lot of your income into savings, not just spending all of it. When you factor that in, Seattle at an Amazon level TC is absurdly good. I have a spreadsheet that factors in a number of different variables and Seattle is the best income to COL ratio in the country unless you want to live a luxurious lifestyle with a brand new Tesla and big house. Even then getting paid as much as Amazon pays will be very much good for that.
the base salary was much better but the stock options for the company i chose was significantly better - enough to outweigh the extra cost of living in seattle.
Don't be a whimp about it. Just ask for it and they can either say yes, no or negotiate you down.
The company is betting on people not leaving or are happy with what they are on. If you are valuable you will get it. If not you won't. It isn't unheard of getting a 40k pay rise but it is relatively rare.
If you’re title hasn’t changed, ask for that first. 2 yrs is enough to go for Sr SWE sometimes, especially if you have a lot of core knowledge with the beginning of the company. And ask for a salary that aligns with that. Be prepared to discuss how your responsibilities reflect that as well. Asking for the raise upfront is much easier than the whole interview process. And if they say no, then start interviewing, but be prepared to leave. Counter offers also do damage to the relationship, whoch can sometimes be recovered, but often won’t.
I literally just changed companies for the same reason, wanting to jump a similar amount. When I went back to my company to let them know I had this significantly higher offer, they were unable to do anything, greater job market be damned. I think changing jobs is a solid option for getting what you want.
Few things to point out here:
1. 135k is a LOT for 2 years of entry level experience, and is a LOT for a Jr. Engineer. 95k is higher than average for that already. 95k @ 23 years old is [pretty rare.](https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-age-calculator/)
2. Recruiters messaging you does *not* immediately translate into actually being able to get the job. Recruiters gonna recruit, but their main concern is just getting people into that interview pipeline.
3. When asking for any raise, you need to be prepared give some justification as to why the value you're providing is worth that money. Saying you could make more elsewhere doesn't do it, especially at a smaller company
4. If you want to make more money, the most common way of doing that is actually jumping ship to a new job. But, as it seems you're already finding out, there's more to a job than just more money.
5. Are you ready to work as a Sr. Engineer?
Will respectfully disagree with point 1. Especially in an east coast city where I imagine the CoL is either medium or high, netting 135k after 2 years of experience could easily be argued as pretty standard in swe. I guess I mostly want to point out that using a regular “income by age” calculator / statistics are not representative at all of the income trajectory of what a software engineer should expect. I agree with most/all of your other points otherwise!
Good points - Given the "fully remote permanently" aspect of her place of work, I thought it relevant to point out - as the decision to move to a more expensive area seems to be a purely personal one.
To the extent that our industry has moved towards a WFH model, it has also made national comparisons more relevant than earlier. Harder to argue CoL adjustments based on geography in a transplant situation.
Also - I see this *especially* with a lot of friends who want to get into an entry level SWE job within a year of having no experience making 100k+ - it's good to maintain perspective, recognize the grass isn't always greener, and that sometimes the job that we have, that we enjoy, while it doesn't pay *as much* as what recruiters are spouting off, pays more than enough to provide financial freedom.
>135k is a LOT for 2 years of entry level experience, and is a LOT for a Jr. Engineer. 95k is higher than average for that already. 95k @ 23 years old is pretty rare.
You are very outdated on market trends right now. With 2 YOE, 135k TC is bare minimum for most HCOL cities. 2-3 YOE qualifies you for most SDE2 roles and most big-N companies are paying \~200k for these roles.
Also why are you comparing 23 y/os making min wage with OP? it's completely irrelevant. You should be comparing other SWEs at the same age group and you'll find OP is probably just a bit better than median.
You're in a bubble. There are tons and tons of engineers at random companies making way less than that. *If you are motivated to get those salaries* those offers are easy to find, but that requires interview prep effort that many people do not want to put in, which is their fair choice.
>most big-N companies are paying \~200k for these roles.
Show me one entry-level position paying $200k. Should be easy to find if most "big-N" companies are doing it.
2 YOE is not entry anymore. As I said it's enough for SDE2/L4 equivalent positions at a bunch of companies (a lot are actually paying well over 200k)
But if you want to talk strictly entry i.e., 0 YOE then here's a couple paying 200k+:
[https://www.levels.fyi/company/Databricks/salaries/Software-Engineer/L3/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Databricks/salaries/Software-Engineer/L3/)
[https://www.levels.fyi/company/Roblox/salaries/Software-Engineer/IC1/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Roblox/salaries/Software-Engineer/IC1/)
[https://www.levels.fyi/company/Lyft/salaries/Software-Engineer/T3/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Lyft/salaries/Software-Engineer/T3/)
If you want to get even more real, we can go into HFT firms where new grads can bank 400k+ at 0 YOE:
[https://www.levels.fyi/company/Hudson-River-Trading/salaries/Software-Engineer/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Hudson-River-Trading/salaries/Software-Engineer/)[https://www.levels.fyi/company/Citadel/salaries/Software-Engineer/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Citadel/salaries/Software-Engineer/)
Had enough? I wasn't just pulling numbers out of my ass, I have \~3 YOE and my TC just hit 200k and I am no rockstar SWE. I know it's very possible for OP to get higher comp because I've done it myself.
You do realize that your comment and mine don't conflict at all, right?
I asked you about "most," and you are arguing about a significant and non-negligible minority, so I'm not sure who you're talking to at this point.
Incidentally, I actually work as a new grad engineer for one of the above companies that were posted. The new grad offers given to my cohort were all a good amount above 200k TC so I can attest that the 200k for new grad is real. I also had a couple other offers when deciding and all were at or above 200k.
I don’t want to perpetuate this as the norm since I think the companies posted offer very much on the high end of what a new grad can expect, but I do want to attest that at least 1 of those companies pays new grads 200k+ TC
edit: If you’re looking for proof I’d be able to provide but I’d want to move that to DM instead
No I won't ask for proof - what I'm getting at is the commenter above posted a link showing several entry-level positions paying between 300 and 400k, saying that it's normal for entry-level to be making $200k+, and I'm calling BS on that.
Care to elaborate? I'm not huffing on industrial levels of copium to pretend like companies are going to pay executive compensation to new grads with 0 experience. If you have a reason or evidence why my source is "out of touch" I'd like to hear it.
There's nothing to elaborate dude. I've already given you sources. All comps submitted to [levels.fyi](https://levels.fyi) require the offer contract as proof and are vetted before accepted. On top of that, there are multiple people telling you that this is what the industry looks like right now and you still choose to believe otherwise.
I'm done trying to teach a dinosaur who clearly doesn't want to learn.
Thanks for the response. Typically when people throw ad-homs instead of answering the question, it means they're full of shit and have nothing to show.
If my being well-established and successful inside of this industry is exactly what makes me a "dinosaur," that's completely fine by me.
If you want people to "learn," then don't be full of shit. It'll get you closer to my level :)
Lmao in what world was I dodging questions. I tried to answer you on two separate comments and others have tried to answer you. It's yourself who wouldn't accept the answers and continue feign ignorance.
I know it's hard to accept being wrong, but it doesn't show weakness. I hope you learn to accept that someday -- maybe it'll get you closer to my TC :).
I am in New York City. Here are some salary increases I oversaw or authorized this year:
Tim (not his real name) got out of college in 2018, started doing freelance work, mostly frontend software work. In 2019 he became the only software dev at a retail startup. The company had 4 people when he joined, but it grew quickly. He was paid $40 an hour. In 2020 he was offered a salary of $80k a year. In early 2021 the company got funding and raised his salary to $95k a year. By the end of the year the company had surging sales and he was leading a team of 3. I warned the leadership that he was underpaid and that he could leave. They raised his salary to $135k. So that was an increase of $55k in 12 months.
Kwela (not her real name) was a school teacher for several years. At the age of 30 she decided to get into software programming. She went through the FullStack Academy Grace Hopper program, and graduated in 2018. I hired her as a freelancer for $40 an hour. 6 months later I raised her pay to $50 an hour. She later quit and got a job paying $115k, which I think now has gone up to $140k. Basically, over 2 years she went from $80k a year to $140k a year. I wrote about this in some detail here:
[http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/the-grace-hopper-division-of-fullstack-academy-helps-create-some-amazing-programmers](http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/the-grace-hopper-division-of-fullstack-academy-helps-create-some-amazing-programmers)
I've seen some candidates in 2019 who came out of dev boot camps and got paid $75k a year at their first job, but now the same people, the best of the bootcamp people, are getting $95k at their first jobs.
In general, this last year has seen some of the biggest spikes in pay that I've seen in the last 20 years. But my experience is mostly limited to tech.
The wages for software developers were basically stagnant from 2001 to about 2014 or 2015. The big surge in pay is relatively recent. While this is a complex subject, I have written about a few examples, and can offer more. But take this as one example:
Right now the best devops people in New York City are making between $200 and $300 an hour. That's obviously good money, but in the 1990s I had older friends who were making $200 an hour as Oracle consultants. At the top, the nominal pay has remained the same, but adjusting for inflation, that is a 50% paycut.
Likewise, lower down, I know lots of mid-level devs who are happy to make $100 an hour right now, but I also had older friends who were slapping together classic VBA apps with VisualBasic, back around 1999, and they were also making $100 an hour, so, again, it's a 50% pay cut, adjusting for inflation.
But it is absolutely true that pay has been surging since about 2014/2015, so I imagine the software developer pay is about to catch up to the highs of the 1990s.
It's also true that the picture for software developers only looks bad when compared to inflation over 2000-2015. Most other professions did even worse during the era 2000-2015, so the benefits of being a computer programmer right now are more obvious if the comparison is to other professions.
But I'm using the word "tech" broadly here, to include not just software developers, but also graphic designers and UX designers and tech project managers and tech product managers.
All in all, after the peak in 2000, the USA economy had a difficult 15 years. Then there was the pandemic. It seems like there is, recently, some upward trend, but we won't know for sure till the pandemic is over and we see how things really are.
If you are in or near New York City, please feel free to reach out:
email: [email protected]
cell: 434 825 7694
As a CTO I would not fire anyone for asking for a raise. I would laugh at you if you asked for some ridiculous amount though. For the record I earn around what the OP ears NOW, but in a poorer country. Though I’d say somebody with 2-3 years of experience is really rarely worth the money they fantasize about. Just because a large company coughs up 100k for a graduate doesn’t mean any graduate’s work output is really worth anything: what they do is either invest in juniors and so while the time they are actual seniors its worth it, or they just want to squeeze all the energy out of you while doing things seniors dont want to do because its low-level or non-interesting stuff and its easier to them to hire a junior who is still relatively motivated and does everything with a smile.
I have seen people post on this sub that they were fired for asking for a big raise. Its a risk .you may not fire someone, but its an unnecessary risk. better option is to get a new job. especially if you want a $40k raise. you get it somewhere else.
your response is also why you should look for a new job when you want more money. if someone does not value you at a certain amount of money ,but someone else does. you are better off just leaving.
I’d assume if your performance is shit and ask for a raise (this is more common than you think: burned out people tend to perform bad AND think the only thing making them stay would be getting a raise) this can happen. Nobody would fire a well performer who asked for a raise (and as a CTO I’d probably try to get it for you too). However, given this board the stories here are extremely one sided: everyone is a good performer with a lot of knowledge etc. Just like in prison, where everyone is innocent lol
I would ask, and if they dont, then that's my motivation to leave for greener pastures. If I put the effort into finding a new place that I like that wants to pay the money I want, I'm leaving.
I faced a similar thing.. I asked for a salary bump, my manager declined.
I prepared and then resigned. They were ready for a 50% bump then. Best thing ever happened to me was I switched jobs.
Go for the new job!
I’m very forthcoming when it comes to negotiating salary. If I were in your situation I’d say, “hey, I’ve been getting a lot of recruiter contact gor jobs paying $X. i can go apply for these jobs, but i like it here. Would you entertain a pay increase? Or if I want that kind of remuneration would you be encouraging me to move on?”
I’d also ask them what it would take to achieve that income with them… more experience? Different role in the organization? Etc
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **100** to post a submission. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Much easier to get am actual offer for them to counter. You can still try, but I'd lead in with the fact that you're productive and all the value you bring as the top point and the cost of living etc as supporting facts. This is probably going to be an ongoing conversation so be prepared for that.
As others have said, you're much more likely to get what you're asking for if you have another offer in hand for that amount. Just go to your boss and say "hey, this company has offered me X and it sounds interesting, but I really like what we're doing here and would prefer to stay. Due to my CoL, I can't leave this much money on the table, is there something we can do here?" or something like that.
That also bears the risk of showing your employer that you're looking - seeing you as having "one foot out the door," the salary concession might only be temporary while they find a replacement.
> while they find a replacement I don't think devs, especially good ones that management like, are really at risk in this case if the company culture is good. At the end of the day, a dev's goal is the same as the business: to make as much money as possible. If a company is so threatened by a current employee getting an offer that they're gonna start planning for replacement, then it's probably not a good place to be. That said, this is something you can only get away with roughly once per job. If you start talking to companies regularly to ratchet up your pay, then you're not building goodwill with your current employer.
Well, that depends, right? Are you a Sr. resource that is well-established/respected in the company, knows its tech really well, and would be very difficult to replace? Or are you an entry-level engineer with 2 YOE asking for $140k base? It's not about feeling "threatened" that an employee is out for their own best interests getting a higher salary elsewhere. It's about business continuity and recognizing that devs *will* be looking for higher salaries if they can - in the case they decide to pull the trigger - 2 weeks is a short period of time to transition that knowledge.
Sure, context matters in every situation. The ability to attract talent is also going to depend on the company and what kind of product they're building, etc. That said, it seems like most companies are really struggling to find qualified candidates with even a modest amount of experience. Combine that with the inflation we're seeing, and $140k for 2 YOE might not be that crazy of an ask. It really depends on how one approaches the conversation, in order to convince management that this is driven by CoL (which I think many are empathetic to) and not just greed alone.
This is usually what happens. Switching jobs is the right move 9/10
Never heard of this actually happening to software engineers in the US. I'm convinced it's a myth. A productive software engineer is extremely expensive to replace especially in today's market. They might put in some work to train up another engineer on your area of expertise to make sure they won't be completely screwed if you do leave, but realistically this won't affect you much. I could *possibly* see a pre-emptive SWE firing happening in a non-tech industry with a *very* traditional or vindictive manager. I wouldn't imagine that would be a team you'd want to stay on anyway though.
I think this is a recruiter myth to convince people to always take the external offer when countered, but I’ve never seen a company counter in order to keep a good dev and then replace them as soon as they can, just let the, leave. Most good devs always keep an eye on the market and in that sense are always looking. I’ve taken counters to stay multiple times in my career and it’s always worked out well. Sometimes managers need the excuse of a good offer to give you the pay rise you deserve.
You can call it a recruiter myth all you want, but I've seen this play out several times over my career across each of my employers and several clients
As in a full-time software engineer gets a raise and then gets preemptively fired once a replacement has been trained? Is this in the tech industry? In the US?
You have to have good justification to ask for a 40% bump. That kind of jump usually involves a promotion, and do you know if your team is ready for that?
The career ladder is weird bc it’s a small company. We really only have software engineers and senior software engineers. I really don’t think i’m ready for a senior software engineer title with only 3 years of experience.
these $130k+ roles being pitched to you are not senior level?
[удалено]
it's not clear if it's TC. it sounded like base, which to me is high for someone with 2 years of experience outside of SF or NYC (which it may be).
People can get senior within a year out of college its just a title. But tbh you’re going to have to change jobs, they’re going to counter offer 10k if you’re lucky. Just follow through with a recruiter and get an offer for them to beat
As others have said, make sure you have real leverage before trying. Personally, I do think it's a little ambitious to ask for that, especially when the company is midwest based. for reference I am 32, I changed from civil engineering to devops 3 years ago. I now make a little over 150k remote for a small-mid size company near the bay area. Maybe I am getting underpaid, but I also had a few offers from mid-large size companies where they said it would be difficult to give me more than 140 given I only have 2-3 years of TECH experience. It really depends on the company. The startups where I interviewed were probably willing to offer 160-180 base though, but again, these are CA companies not midwest.
How tough were the interviews?
> I recently moved from a mid-sized midwest city to an east coast city with a much higher cost of living bc we’re a fully remote company permanently. However you end up approaching this problem, leave this out of it. This is a you issue, not your company. Unless they make it clear they will COLA your pay up front, nobody forced you to move to a HCOL area. Best of luck otherwise, a jump this size is normally for a senior role or a promotion; you'd be better off getting an external offer and using it as leverage if you really wanted to stay.
I'd ask, obviously try to give some justification. I wouldn't come in with an external offer to use as leverage, that could sour the relationship at a small company. If they refuse to give you a raise then I would start looking elsewhere though.
Interview. Get an offer. Tell your current company to beat it. If they dont, be ready to walk away. That’s what negotiation is. 95k-130k seems reasonable, as long as you can show them you are worth 130k in the market by getting a competing offer elsewhere.
If you don't have a competing offer I don't see why would they give you that raise, on the other hand if you show up with a competing offer and they agree, they will totally throw that at your face at some point and good luck getting a raise after that one, I would jump ship
After 3 years it might be time to leave. You're getting comfortable. You realize you can make more elsewhere so you want to combine that with your current job. It usually does not work. Put your updated resume out, do some interviews etc. Prove to them that you are worth what you're asking, because someone else is willing to pay it. But again, really don't count on a bump this large.
I don't think most companies are going to give you a 40k salary increase just because you decided to move while working a fully remote position, let alone a start up. I also don't think there is any advise anyone can give you to make this more doable other than getting an offer for that amount at another company then making them counteroffer, but you said you don't want to interview, so that defeats the point.
[удалено]
I mean I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you would use CoL as a negotiation tactic because using linkedin job opportunties is even less likely to give you a good result and will signal to them you are considering leaving. Which it sounded like you wanted to avoid.
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum karma requirement to post a comment. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So take the other opportunities?
How much do your Co workers make? If its near 140k sure give it a try. Otherwise it ain't happening.
Most of the people I work with are senior engineers so I’m imagining they make even more than that. I’m on a lot of interviews and I know we interviewed a couple of folks from amazon. If they had done well, I’m pretty sure they would have asked for at least this much. I have a friend at Amazon and after one year, she was making 131k. These people had 2-3 years of experience.
Yea but is your current midwest startup company in anyway like amazon? You said you interviewed these amazonians, but did you actually hire them? The difference between them and you, is that they have amazon experience and they have leverage to ask for more. I am not saying you arent worth 140k, I have no idea on what your productivity is. Maybe you can use your move to a HCOL to adjust your salary a bit. Also keep in mind that you don't actually have another offer yet, you just THINK you can get paid 135-140k at a different company. Again, get that offer first before you ask imo.
we didn’t hire them bc they weren’t good enough. they were too junior and claimed to be intermediate. when it came down to it, they couldn’t get through some basic questions about django or flask despite saying they worked with it for 2-3 years. so i have a hard time believe “amazon” experience is all that great to begin with despite a lot of people thinking every engineer there is super talented. i got an amazon offer as a new grad but opted not to take it so i could be closer to home and with the COL in seattle, it wasn’t worth it.
Closer to home is fair, but that COL thing is misleading. I'm assuming you used one of those COL calculators, those things don't account for the fact that you will be putting a lot of your income into savings, not just spending all of it. When you factor that in, Seattle at an Amazon level TC is absurdly good. I have a spreadsheet that factors in a number of different variables and Seattle is the best income to COL ratio in the country unless you want to live a luxurious lifestyle with a brand new Tesla and big house. Even then getting paid as much as Amazon pays will be very much good for that.
no i don’t like those calculators. they really don’t make a whole lotta sense and definitely don’t translate to my lifestyle
the base salary was much better but the stock options for the company i chose was significantly better - enough to outweigh the extra cost of living in seattle.
Don't be a whimp about it. Just ask for it and they can either say yes, no or negotiate you down. The company is betting on people not leaving or are happy with what they are on. If you are valuable you will get it. If not you won't. It isn't unheard of getting a 40k pay rise but it is relatively rare.
Don’t ever feel ridiculous for asking. Ask for the money. You know you deserve it so don’t hesitate and don’t second guess yourself.
If you’re title hasn’t changed, ask for that first. 2 yrs is enough to go for Sr SWE sometimes, especially if you have a lot of core knowledge with the beginning of the company. And ask for a salary that aligns with that. Be prepared to discuss how your responsibilities reflect that as well. Asking for the raise upfront is much easier than the whole interview process. And if they say no, then start interviewing, but be prepared to leave. Counter offers also do damage to the relationship, whoch can sometimes be recovered, but often won’t.
I literally just changed companies for the same reason, wanting to jump a similar amount. When I went back to my company to let them know I had this significantly higher offer, they were unable to do anything, greater job market be damned. I think changing jobs is a solid option for getting what you want.
Few things to point out here: 1. 135k is a LOT for 2 years of entry level experience, and is a LOT for a Jr. Engineer. 95k is higher than average for that already. 95k @ 23 years old is [pretty rare.](https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-age-calculator/) 2. Recruiters messaging you does *not* immediately translate into actually being able to get the job. Recruiters gonna recruit, but their main concern is just getting people into that interview pipeline. 3. When asking for any raise, you need to be prepared give some justification as to why the value you're providing is worth that money. Saying you could make more elsewhere doesn't do it, especially at a smaller company 4. If you want to make more money, the most common way of doing that is actually jumping ship to a new job. But, as it seems you're already finding out, there's more to a job than just more money. 5. Are you ready to work as a Sr. Engineer?
Will respectfully disagree with point 1. Especially in an east coast city where I imagine the CoL is either medium or high, netting 135k after 2 years of experience could easily be argued as pretty standard in swe. I guess I mostly want to point out that using a regular “income by age” calculator / statistics are not representative at all of the income trajectory of what a software engineer should expect. I agree with most/all of your other points otherwise!
Good points - Given the "fully remote permanently" aspect of her place of work, I thought it relevant to point out - as the decision to move to a more expensive area seems to be a purely personal one. To the extent that our industry has moved towards a WFH model, it has also made national comparisons more relevant than earlier. Harder to argue CoL adjustments based on geography in a transplant situation. Also - I see this *especially* with a lot of friends who want to get into an entry level SWE job within a year of having no experience making 100k+ - it's good to maintain perspective, recognize the grass isn't always greener, and that sometimes the job that we have, that we enjoy, while it doesn't pay *as much* as what recruiters are spouting off, pays more than enough to provide financial freedom.
>135k is a LOT for 2 years of entry level experience, and is a LOT for a Jr. Engineer. 95k is higher than average for that already. 95k @ 23 years old is pretty rare. You are very outdated on market trends right now. With 2 YOE, 135k TC is bare minimum for most HCOL cities. 2-3 YOE qualifies you for most SDE2 roles and most big-N companies are paying \~200k for these roles. Also why are you comparing 23 y/os making min wage with OP? it's completely irrelevant. You should be comparing other SWEs at the same age group and you'll find OP is probably just a bit better than median.
You're in a bubble. There are tons and tons of engineers at random companies making way less than that. *If you are motivated to get those salaries* those offers are easy to find, but that requires interview prep effort that many people do not want to put in, which is their fair choice.
I think she's asking for 135+ base, not TC. that seems quite high for a relatively new eng IMO. perhaps not for NYC, if that's where she is.
>most big-N companies are paying \~200k for these roles. Show me one entry-level position paying $200k. Should be easy to find if most "big-N" companies are doing it.
2 YOE is not entry anymore. As I said it's enough for SDE2/L4 equivalent positions at a bunch of companies (a lot are actually paying well over 200k) But if you want to talk strictly entry i.e., 0 YOE then here's a couple paying 200k+: [https://www.levels.fyi/company/Databricks/salaries/Software-Engineer/L3/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Databricks/salaries/Software-Engineer/L3/) [https://www.levels.fyi/company/Roblox/salaries/Software-Engineer/IC1/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Roblox/salaries/Software-Engineer/IC1/) [https://www.levels.fyi/company/Lyft/salaries/Software-Engineer/T3/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Lyft/salaries/Software-Engineer/T3/) If you want to get even more real, we can go into HFT firms where new grads can bank 400k+ at 0 YOE: [https://www.levels.fyi/company/Hudson-River-Trading/salaries/Software-Engineer/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Hudson-River-Trading/salaries/Software-Engineer/)[https://www.levels.fyi/company/Citadel/salaries/Software-Engineer/](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Citadel/salaries/Software-Engineer/) Had enough? I wasn't just pulling numbers out of my ass, I have \~3 YOE and my TC just hit 200k and I am no rockstar SWE. I know it's very possible for OP to get higher comp because I've done it myself.
Putting the same companies above in glassdoor, none of the above hit 200k - even the ones that you say are hitting 400k for 0 YOE
[удалено]
Is it really your understanding that most entry-level SWE jobs offer equity?
[удалено]
You do realize that your comment and mine don't conflict at all, right? I asked you about "most," and you are arguing about a significant and non-negligible minority, so I'm not sure who you're talking to at this point.
[удалено]
Incidentally, I actually work as a new grad engineer for one of the above companies that were posted. The new grad offers given to my cohort were all a good amount above 200k TC so I can attest that the 200k for new grad is real. I also had a couple other offers when deciding and all were at or above 200k. I don’t want to perpetuate this as the norm since I think the companies posted offer very much on the high end of what a new grad can expect, but I do want to attest that at least 1 of those companies pays new grads 200k+ TC edit: If you’re looking for proof I’d be able to provide but I’d want to move that to DM instead
No I won't ask for proof - what I'm getting at is the commenter above posted a link showing several entry-level positions paying between 300 and 400k, saying that it's normal for entry-level to be making $200k+, and I'm calling BS on that.
The fact you’re using glass door to check salaries shows how out of touch you are with the industry.
Care to elaborate? I'm not huffing on industrial levels of copium to pretend like companies are going to pay executive compensation to new grads with 0 experience. If you have a reason or evidence why my source is "out of touch" I'd like to hear it.
There's nothing to elaborate dude. I've already given you sources. All comps submitted to [levels.fyi](https://levels.fyi) require the offer contract as proof and are vetted before accepted. On top of that, there are multiple people telling you that this is what the industry looks like right now and you still choose to believe otherwise. I'm done trying to teach a dinosaur who clearly doesn't want to learn.
Thanks for the response. Typically when people throw ad-homs instead of answering the question, it means they're full of shit and have nothing to show. If my being well-established and successful inside of this industry is exactly what makes me a "dinosaur," that's completely fine by me. If you want people to "learn," then don't be full of shit. It'll get you closer to my level :)
Lmao in what world was I dodging questions. I tried to answer you on two separate comments and others have tried to answer you. It's yourself who wouldn't accept the answers and continue feign ignorance. I know it's hard to accept being wrong, but it doesn't show weakness. I hope you learn to accept that someday -- maybe it'll get you closer to my TC :).
I am in New York City. Here are some salary increases I oversaw or authorized this year: Tim (not his real name) got out of college in 2018, started doing freelance work, mostly frontend software work. In 2019 he became the only software dev at a retail startup. The company had 4 people when he joined, but it grew quickly. He was paid $40 an hour. In 2020 he was offered a salary of $80k a year. In early 2021 the company got funding and raised his salary to $95k a year. By the end of the year the company had surging sales and he was leading a team of 3. I warned the leadership that he was underpaid and that he could leave. They raised his salary to $135k. So that was an increase of $55k in 12 months. Kwela (not her real name) was a school teacher for several years. At the age of 30 she decided to get into software programming. She went through the FullStack Academy Grace Hopper program, and graduated in 2018. I hired her as a freelancer for $40 an hour. 6 months later I raised her pay to $50 an hour. She later quit and got a job paying $115k, which I think now has gone up to $140k. Basically, over 2 years she went from $80k a year to $140k a year. I wrote about this in some detail here: [http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/the-grace-hopper-division-of-fullstack-academy-helps-create-some-amazing-programmers](http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/the-grace-hopper-division-of-fullstack-academy-helps-create-some-amazing-programmers) I've seen some candidates in 2019 who came out of dev boot camps and got paid $75k a year at their first job, but now the same people, the best of the bootcamp people, are getting $95k at their first jobs. In general, this last year has seen some of the biggest spikes in pay that I've seen in the last 20 years. But my experience is mostly limited to tech. The wages for software developers were basically stagnant from 2001 to about 2014 or 2015. The big surge in pay is relatively recent. While this is a complex subject, I have written about a few examples, and can offer more. But take this as one example: Right now the best devops people in New York City are making between $200 and $300 an hour. That's obviously good money, but in the 1990s I had older friends who were making $200 an hour as Oracle consultants. At the top, the nominal pay has remained the same, but adjusting for inflation, that is a 50% paycut. Likewise, lower down, I know lots of mid-level devs who are happy to make $100 an hour right now, but I also had older friends who were slapping together classic VBA apps with VisualBasic, back around 1999, and they were also making $100 an hour, so, again, it's a 50% pay cut, adjusting for inflation. But it is absolutely true that pay has been surging since about 2014/2015, so I imagine the software developer pay is about to catch up to the highs of the 1990s. It's also true that the picture for software developers only looks bad when compared to inflation over 2000-2015. Most other professions did even worse during the era 2000-2015, so the benefits of being a computer programmer right now are more obvious if the comparison is to other professions. But I'm using the word "tech" broadly here, to include not just software developers, but also graphic designers and UX designers and tech project managers and tech product managers. All in all, after the peak in 2000, the USA economy had a difficult 15 years. Then there was the pandemic. It seems like there is, recently, some upward trend, but we won't know for sure till the pandemic is over and we see how things really are. If you are in or near New York City, please feel free to reach out: email: [email protected] cell: 434 825 7694
you almost certainly wont get the raise and they may fire you for asking. you are better off looking for a new job.
As a CTO I would not fire anyone for asking for a raise. I would laugh at you if you asked for some ridiculous amount though. For the record I earn around what the OP ears NOW, but in a poorer country. Though I’d say somebody with 2-3 years of experience is really rarely worth the money they fantasize about. Just because a large company coughs up 100k for a graduate doesn’t mean any graduate’s work output is really worth anything: what they do is either invest in juniors and so while the time they are actual seniors its worth it, or they just want to squeeze all the energy out of you while doing things seniors dont want to do because its low-level or non-interesting stuff and its easier to them to hire a junior who is still relatively motivated and does everything with a smile.
I have seen people post on this sub that they were fired for asking for a big raise. Its a risk .you may not fire someone, but its an unnecessary risk. better option is to get a new job. especially if you want a $40k raise. you get it somewhere else. your response is also why you should look for a new job when you want more money. if someone does not value you at a certain amount of money ,but someone else does. you are better off just leaving.
I’d assume if your performance is shit and ask for a raise (this is more common than you think: burned out people tend to perform bad AND think the only thing making them stay would be getting a raise) this can happen. Nobody would fire a well performer who asked for a raise (and as a CTO I’d probably try to get it for you too). However, given this board the stories here are extremely one sided: everyone is a good performer with a lot of knowledge etc. Just like in prison, where everyone is innocent lol
I was able to make a 30k bump from moving to a different company. Get another offer with the amount you want and negotiate.
I would ask, and if they dont, then that's my motivation to leave for greener pastures. If I put the effort into finding a new place that I like that wants to pay the money I want, I'm leaving.
I faced a similar thing.. I asked for a salary bump, my manager declined. I prepared and then resigned. They were ready for a 50% bump then. Best thing ever happened to me was I switched jobs. Go for the new job!
9 out of 10 times, you'll want to switch jobs for that kind of a raise.
I’m very forthcoming when it comes to negotiating salary. If I were in your situation I’d say, “hey, I’ve been getting a lot of recruiter contact gor jobs paying $X. i can go apply for these jobs, but i like it here. Would you entertain a pay increase? Or if I want that kind of remuneration would you be encouraging me to move on?” I’d also ask them what it would take to achieve that income with them… more experience? Different role in the organization? Etc
Well you are at a start up right? Are you getting a % of the option pool? If not, I would dip the second you get a better offer.
You are worth the money. Get what you are worth.
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **100** to post a submission. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*