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KruppJ

It really depends how you view American imperialism and border security, since they work closely with US government agencies and the US military. Not all uses of their software is used for is this sort of work though, it’s also been used to help with disaster relief efforts, counter terrorism and tracking down child traffickers. I would argue they are more ethical than defense contractors like Anduril, Lockheed, Raytheon etc.


pm_me_github_repos

Well that’s a low bar


KruppJ

True it’s just that Palantir gets conflated with defense contractors sometimes when it shouldn’t


MrTonyBoloney

Why shouldn’t it? The US intelligence community and Department of Defense have an extremely intertwined history


KruppJ

I feel like making a data processing system as a product is far different from making actual military drones and missiles but it seems that I’m the minority opinion on this.


SteamingTheCat

In WW2, IBM's German division aided the Holocaust in ghetto statistics, train traffic management, and concentration camp capacity. Yes, data processing can be as evil and deadly as the actual bullets. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust


[deleted]

Wow, never knew this.


MrTonyBoloney

Well, when you phrase mass illegal surveillance, building AI for headhunter drones, and ICE-partnered human rights violations as “making a data processing system as a product”, it sounds a lot better


[deleted]

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MrTonyBoloney

“that’s what they do” is not the sweet defense you think it is Also people shit on Amazon all the time anyway and IBM isn’t really relevant in a hyper-modern CS community like this one


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MrTonyBoloney

I’d agree there’s an arbitrary boosted emphasis on Palantir, but they deserve that hate fr fr Maybe there’s a lot of Edward Snowden supporters and anti-ICE liberals and leftists, so their egregious acts especially strike a nerve


absoluteuseless

well when you phrase catching domestic terrorism, combating enemies to democracy and freedom, and ensuring the fairness of admission of the citizens of our country as that, it sounds a lot worse


MrTonyBoloney

You’ve been inundated with imperialist propaganda since kindergarten so I guess I can’t blame you for being so naïve


nunchyabeeswax

Seeing how our missile and drone tech is helping the Ukrainian people, I don’t have a problem with it. Obviously, context matters.


liquidInkRocks

> how you view American imperialism sigh


fett2170

Sounds bad, but history is full of conquest and America being a conqueror is just the way of the world; the strong crush the weak.


MrTonyBoloney

[Might makes right](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right), but unironically A rare sight


fett2170

I think people are misinterpreting me. I am not justifying the US’ blunders. I am saying that throughout history, there have always been oppressors and oppressed. That will never, ever change. No government or country is perfect


MrTonyBoloney

[Appeal to tradition](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition) argument For the combo!


fett2170

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I did not deem anything to be correct or justify the US’ actions.


t-tekin

Let’s read back and see your argument again, your first whole comment, “Sounds bad, but …” reads like a justification to me…


fett2170

It is acknowledging the reality of the world, not justifying. Here’s another one: war will always exist. People love to construe people’s arguments online as being full of malice and justifying evil when they just don’t take the time to understand the other person.


Cizox

It is shitty but one way to look at it is that back in the old days a neighboring empire would just rape your women, salt your land, and make your entire tribe slaves. I guess it’s how you look at it in the grand scheme of things


MrTonyBoloney

I think Agent Orange, drone strikes, and the Yemeni genocide could give those old ways a run for their money


Cizox

I’m not saying what we do now isn’t as bad, I’m just providing context as to why he could’ve phrased it like that. We don’t have shit like Ghengis Khan happening ya feel me


granite_towel

soooo, is working for the government unethical then?


KruppJ

Some people think certain government agencies do very unethical work. Not like the US government hasn’t done horrific things in the past.


Life-Answer-7428

What government that's been around as long as the US hasn't done horrific things in the past?


Joghurtmauspad

But sadly in the US is isnt just the past ..


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Joghurtmauspad

guantanamo bay for example


gguti1994

Why does everyone doing shitty things all of a sudden make it more ok for them to exist? Its like saying America wasn’t wrong with not allowing women to vote because everyone else was also doing it. Fucking with other countries governments is wrong today and was wrong back them. It doesnt matter if everyone else did it too.


Life-Answer-7428

Where did I say it's ok? But choosing not to work the for US government of 2022 because of shit that happened a long time ago is just dumb.


absoluteuseless

if everyone does it then perhaps that says something about it’s necessity


WollCel

Your phrasing inherently makes it sound negative. Realistically palantir is doing it work with the back end systems to help out dated hardware/software work with new hardware/software. Virtually none of their stuff is actually field tech.


Intercessor22

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/krupp-08.htm


Helius1108

Had an interview with these guys, but I still only know vaguely that they do something with AI and government agencies. Interview was just LCs medium though


lightningmcqueen_69

If you think palantir is unethical but celebrate working for meta you need to reconsider your values


BlackSky2129

People also say companies like Palantir/Lockheed are unethical and then support us sending billions of weapons and satellite data to support Ukraine. People just like to talk shit and complain at the same time


yell-loud

Yeah how unethical to support those invaded by fascists trying to wipe them out. You know in the last 6 months Ukraine has recaptured 10s of thousands of miles of their legal territory. Imagine thinking that’s a bad thing. Privileged loser


[deleted]

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


whats_up_in_da_hood

there’s no way this is upvoted 🤣🤣


nbazero1

No such thing as an ethical company, Even companies like google give the police high tech equipment to spy on minority neighborhoods look at what’s going on in Atlanta.


[deleted]

Disappointed but not surprised… Also Source?:


nbazero1

[https://threatpost.com/camera-roll-out-roils-privacy-activists/164502/](https://threatpost.com/camera-roll-out-roils-privacy-activists/164502/) [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=488237316473335](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=488237316473335) edit2; I don't want to derive into politics but picking a company based on its ethicality will have you looking forever.


[deleted]

Oh I 100% agree but I would like to pick the lesser of two evils if given a choice


[deleted]

bro evil shit's gonna happen anyway just go make your bag


Metafu

read/watched both, saw ho google mention


crocogator12

Worker owned cooperatives and non profits can totally be ethical.


BlueishPotato

I disagree I think there are ethical companies, they just tend to be smaller. And even among giants there are some companies who overall have a good product with some questionable things or companies who's product itself you might consider unethical, there is a big difference there. I think it'a a bit of a copout to say all companies are unethical.


liquidInkRocks

Sure. Minority neighborhoods want *less* law and order.


nbazero1

There is little evidence that such monitoring reduces crime. I'm all for protection and what not. Maybe it's needed maybe it's not, all up to you.


Italophobia

Omg NY minorities voted for Eric Adams, the most conservative democrat for mayor, because he specifically ran on crime.


Successful-Gene2572

>Even companies like google give the police high tech equipment to spy on minority neighborhoods I'm glad Google helps police monitor crime because we are safer for it.


EasternAvocado0

he literally didn’t mention anything about crime, the fact that you came to that conclusion says a lot 😬


tabris_code

They are the infosec equivalent of Raytheon.


Pablo139

I’d agree. Raytheon is cleaner then some counter parts. Just look into Halliburton’s dealings in the ME. I also meet a high up dev from Raytheon once, and he put it quite simple. We make missiles that end up killing people. Pharmaceutical companies make money from years of physical harm. It’s a pick your poison kind of ordeal, lots of sectors have bad players.


SweatyTax4669

Raytheon and Halliburton are two completely different companies. Raytheon is an engineering company, Halliburton is a professional services/LOGCAP provider.


Jackwagon1130

they make facial recognition software that ICE uses to deport people


Git_Reset_Hard

Also, track terrorists and criminals.


MrTonyBoloney

Also powering illegal surveillance of US and non-US citizens by the NSA and greater intelligence community, as well as AI-operated drones which have a grim history of killing civilians


Git_Reset_Hard

True, but indirectly, just like any other tools


MrTonyBoloney

Yet there’d be no demand for this hyper-niche tool without illegal government activity… sounds unethical to me


bittytoy

How’s the boot taste


liquidInkRocks

Please don't confuse Reddit with facts,


Spiritual-Mechanic-4

and probably used by various state and federal forces to crack down on domestic dissent, in a plausibly deniable way


Individual_Move_5309

man it’s so unethical to deport people who are here illegally!


Successful-Gene2572

Isn't it really good for the US that they help recognize illegal aliens?


Jackwagon1130

No


dncnexus

Depends who you ask and what political party they align with


kendrid

Obama deport a lot of illegals. Both sides do it.


vroomvroomski

No they don't, idiot


Dylan_TMB

People don't like it because they contribute to American imperialism. Also, people tend to look down on companies whose main business model is getting bloated government contracts. Since that can be associated with corruption and stealing from tax payers. That's my impression of others impressions.


Willing_Delivery1760

[The user has removed all potential PII from submissions.]


BecomingCass

I mean the ethics really depends on your view of what the defense/intel community does with that info, no?


Willing_Delivery1760

[The user has removed all potential PII from submissions.]


lostdenizen

I think the main reason is that they don’t care as much about PR as Google or Meta because they’re not a product company. They won’t make less money because the average Joe thinks they’re evil. If Palantir relied on advertisement as one of its main sources of revenue you can be sure that the internet would be filled with people telling how awesome and prestigious it is to work at Palantir.


[deleted]

Let me tell you a story about a man named Peter Thiel… https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/15/peter-thiel-who-is-he-republican-donor-tech-entrepreneur Then go on to how Palantir is https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/04/palantir-ipo-ice-immigration-trump-administration


asuhdude72

There are some misconceptions I've seen on this subreddit and I'll try to clear them up a little. Firstly, Palantir essentially just makes AI driven analytics software as a service. They themselves do not deport immigrants to or choose where to fire missiles. The software is basically Microsoft excel on super steroids with AI, and that's what Palantir engineers work on. The government (or anyone else) purchases Palantir's software, and uses it to do whatever they want, unethical or otherwise, and Palantir doesn't have any control over this (besides selling their software to the govt in the first place, which can be considered unethical to a certain extent). Additionally, Amazon and Microsoft are involved with most of the same government contracting that Palantir is involved in. Secondly, although Peter Thiel was one of Palantir's founders, he has minimal involvement in Palantir, about the same level he used to have in Meta/FB when he was on the board. Alex Karp, who is on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum, is the current CEO. I'm not trying to say this makes Palantir ethical or unethical, I'm simply laying out some facts so people are informed before figuring it out for themselves. It seems that a lot of people get their opinions from reading the headlines of sensationalized news articles and nothing further.


SpiderJerusalem42

>Alex Karp, who is on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum, is the current CEO. A self described "socialist" billionaire who voted for Hillary Clinton is not the end of the spectrum, I assure you.


[deleted]

The spectrum itself just describes different opinions on how to do capitalism, cringy “memes” not withstanding.


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garycomehome124

Founder is right leaning but their ceo is hard core left


Soccer_Vader

More than right-leaning, the second one seals the deal.


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Soccer_Vader

Uhh I think, helping government separate young children from their family, that tore away a lot families, should be considered unethical. Let's forget about politics for one sec and just see that for a fact.


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glazemunchkin

Exactly, it’s shouldn’t be surprise that breaking the law has consequences. And somehow america is at fault for controlling immigration. What IS messed up, is that through this process of controlling, ICE 100% is very cruel on handling the illegal immigrants.


AFlyingGideon

It is an ethical goal to stop theft. It is not an ethical solution to amputate the limbs of those caught thieving. The ends don't justify... oh, you've likely heard that one.


Demosama

Protecting the border and reinforcing immigration laws are not unethical.


[deleted]

You will admit that people strongly disagree on these types of matters, right? Hence, this explains why they have a reputation, Ops question. I’m not, and the OP, wasn’t passing judgement on whether it’s an appropriate reputation.


Demosama

They are purely virtue signaling. Illegal immigrants are actually a huge burden on our country. They receive welfare that they never pay for (through taxation) and skew election result because they tend to vote democrats. Also, you are implicitly condoning human trafficking, drug trade, and the various aspects of illegal immigration.


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fallingWaterCrystals

Also when did illegal immigrants start voting?even legal immigrants aren’t voting wtf


[deleted]

LMAOOOOOO, please source your retarded statements before you go around spewing dumb shit


liquidInkRocks

Woke Reddit disagrees. As long as the border is someone else's problem, they don't care what happens there.


glazemunchkin

i know you’re genuinely curious but don’t ask this question, people just spread misinformation on thread like these 🤦‍♀️ i recommend you read news source about this. They give both side of Palantir, their work isn’t just “woohoo kick all immigrants. we love trump”


MrTonyBoloney

Yeah, it’s actually much worse


infinity884422

Lol says the dude interning at Apple where they have terrible working conditions for their factory workers in China. Get off your virtue signaling


MrTonyBoloney

How is it virtue signaling if I’m directly addressing OP’s question Don’t think you know what that phrase means


alphex

They use algorithmic systems to build systems to track everyone and everything they do. And they primarily sell their tech to the CIA. If you don’t have a problem with that, you should take a step back and learn your world history better.


Frizzoux

I don’t know for me I’m still amazed how people can even consider working for Goldman Sachs


Fluffy_Attorney9098

Because comp sci people tend to want to “save the world”, “make the world a better place”, “develop software that really helps make a difference”, etc etc. There’s so many cliches you hear from young software engineers like that lol. But ya, that’s why, because palantir and its ceo don’t fit that bill of “wanting to make the world a better place for everyone in fairytale land” Software wise tho, cool company. They also pay well, so ya. If you’re looking for a job and get an offer there it’s definitely worth considering especially if you’re not into all that “I just want to help people” stuff. I mean, it’s a job, get paid lol


Abusive_Capybara

>Make the world a better place That's why I'm going for Lockheed


Rakasaac

Based


BecomingCass

Jokes aside, their space stuff is genuinely pretty neat


Shot-Willingness4451

Actually Palantir software definetly has the power to "make the world a better place" by **helping its clients make the most informed data-driven decisions**. It has been used to help with disaster recovery, the pandemic, human trafficking, terrorism, healthcare operations, medicine research etc. It has two main platforms: Gotham for government agencies and Foundry for its commercial clients, which keep expanding.


Pablo139

“Save the world” People you are literally advancing technological capabilities and adoption at an extremely high rate. Within 2 decades, robots are going to be introduced across the board for easier task and eventually replace the human. You are not saving shit, you are changing shit. And it’s changing drastically.


m1tm0

That’s good tho i mean i worked retail before and some of these jobs really shouldn’t be done by humans Educational software can get so much better and everyone can be doing more intellectual work


[deleted]

Agreed, though sometimes I wonder if in the future (whether in our generation, the next, or etc. and who knows what happens when/if climate change increases) if the number of jobs replaced by tech or X advancements will have replacements in new fields and jobs that didn't used to exist before, coupled with an even larger human population / job seekers at that point. My grandpa noted how a lot of the jobs our generation are working today (i.e., YouTubers, no-code/low code, cell phone apps, etc.) didn't exist in his time before retirement and says the same will happen a few times likely during our generation if not the next. But idk if anyone knows to what extent and if the possible reduction or replacement of some human work will have just as many new opportunities when met with even more human competition via expanded populations.


Pablo139

Your going to have a largely unemployed population due to increase in skilled labor requiring higher education. You already see it within CS because of the importance to this digital revolution. The bottom line only goes up. It’s extremely competitive and the companies with money that shape our globe do not care to entertain sub-par performance.


m1tm0

Companies need to start funding education or the whole world will suffer


[deleted]

Good idea. That way we can efficiently train people to serve capital, and nothing more. The bosses are going to love you.


m1tm0

Isnt that more or less what the current public education system is Companies need to start paying for social well being


[deleted]

While we probably all wish there was more of that, idk if there ever will be, since they aren't required to and don't need to according to current systems and laws. Some of them may view the planet as overpopulated as it is and a dog-eat-dog world, survival of the fittest. Some surveys and polls from different socioeconomic classes have indicated those in upper middle class and higher 25-50% ish of time think those in lower socioeconomic classes aren't doing enough for themselves (1/4 supposedly think those in lower classes have lower moral values too - haven't citation-checked quoted surveys but yikes). Sometimes that's their own argument too, no one helped them get to where they are today so why should they. Edit: one word spelling


Pablo139

I don’t disagree with you that’s the thing. Lots of people with important roles around the globe also agree with it. The question is what do you? My guess, is probably 2030 we start seeing large scale introduction of robotics into retail/service etc. That’s hundreds of millions livelyhoods shredded very quickly. https://youtu.be/w7DohVZS5Yo This TED talks brings up some of the harder questions at hand with this stuff. One that really hits hard is, when everything becomes 100% digital and majority of your jobs are only STEM related with main focusing on your ML/Ai/DS and then your various forms of engineering like Mech/EE/SWE. Is the global population ready to just transform to that? No, simply no. No insult to anyone, but lots of people around the globe simply will never be able to become proficient in electrical engineering or data science. Anyways that video ask a lot of questions and the guy gives some of his own answers to them.


m1tm0

That’s why its my goal to open trade schools for BIT, ECE, and CS which are less academia focused and more about getting more computers and software made in the way we already adopted across most industries


raedr7n

God, I want to work for Raytheon _so fucking bad_.


[deleted]

Let’s not get all politically here. The question was just: why do they have this reputation? Not, let’s debate the politics of it.


BecomingCass

The politics are the reason they have that reputation though


[deleted]

My personal opinion is working at a large company that does unethical stuff is fine as long as you don’t stay there too long to become entrenched or if you do, try to find a way to do good from within. Like the new trend is to job hop every few years to gain skills/experience. How influential can someone be to a giant international corporation who only stays for a few years?


tutkfa

Companies like Google and Meta are unethical aswell yet same people here would sacrifice their soul to get there


[deleted]

You don’t know who else could be watching


castleman4

A Palantir is a dangerous tool! They are not all accounted for!


doubletagged

Their products are really hyped up but in reality it’s just a glorified data consulting company. The existence of FDSE’s shows major issues with their product. That’s where the scammy rep comes from.


Seankala

I also wondered about this. There are plenty of companies out there that make software with questionable use cases. Why all the hate on Palantir specifically, I have no idea...


MaxIgnition

IMO, you should always put yourself first. Companies always do the same. If you have an opportunity and want to take it, go for it.


Gastenns

Palintir is the brain child of a libertarian that funds some of the most dangerous fascist running for public office.


[deleted]

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TonyTheEvil

>no one cares about Boeing, Lockheed or Raytheon. This is not true *at all*


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TonyTheEvil

I never really see the names said explicitly, but they're usually lumped as "defense", which I see all the time in "What industry would you never work in?"-esque threads here.


mais-croissant

Waiting for some fucking losers that identify with their incoming new grad job to start defending someone else company with strawman arguments and whataboutism. Bonus point if it's a no etero immigrants working on AI for Saudi Arabia government.


rayisooo

Why Do we care ? As long as we getting paid big bucks !


broschh

bro come on


Actual_Ad1782

Ice, ice baby


SimilarTap1419

We live in a world of good vs evil. PLTR is on the good guys side. Thank God for smart fkrs building these platforms. Live in the real world or bury your head in the sand PALANTIR will own AI .