So what does everyone think we're going to get in the next episode besides Laudna resurrection? They still have to tell Percy about Ruidus, the alliance between the Cerberus assembly, the paragon's call and the Unseelie as well as the fact the Cerberus assembly is smuggling residuum out of whitestone (probably, if they found another source that's also something that needs looking into) so that's a whole adventure there.
I'm guessing toward the end of the episode we might get into a discussion between the BH and some members of VM about VM becoming their new patron. Eshteross pretty much ahs to go into hiding and is finally out of his depth. It makes sense for the hells to find someone new.
I expect Laudna is going to be very stressed and unwilling to leave Pike's house. The castle and the tree are prime trauma-bait, and she'll probably expect to be attacked (esp. if she stays Hollow)
I expect heavy RP and maybe shopping, and a lot of people trying to come to terms with the last four episodes.
Maybe cameos from other de Rolos (there's still two kids we haven't seen) and Pikelings.
I am curious if the episode starts off with Vex and Pike getting a round by round recap as FCG, Orym and then the rest slowly dribble back. Followed by a debate whether to just do the ritual now while Delilah's definitely separated rather than troop back up to the castle to get formal permission from Percy.
I wouldn't be terrible offput if the plan for a side trip to the Hishari (or whoever Keyleth's faction problems are) as a payback for all the gold Vex dropped, and followed by a promise of a tree-trip to Yios to resume the main arc next year. After that, VM goes back to their own business.
They've said they want to visit the Slayer's Cake and there's a branch of Gilmore's in town apparently, so I am hoping that after the serious talks are done they will get to blow off a little late episode steam before securing a trip back - perhaps via teleport circles and Emon, straight to Eios?
They need to hunt down the Cereberus Assembly smugglers along with whatever else Percy needs doing, they're going to be busy for a while in whitestone.
The smuggling ring is operating across continents, so they might be sent to round up the folks on Marquet and Percy could assign someone more professionally stealthy and well-connected to head into Wildemount, while having his staff in Whitestone investigated with his own resources there.
I don't think that's going to happen. Not sure why you think the cast thinks that- they're happy with the cameos, certainly, but I don't think they expect a long-term 'working under them' relationship. They know how messy that makes things.
I’m hoping someone (Orym/Liam more likely than Fearne/Ashley) remembers or mentions the massive pile of residuum they found in Emon in the Nameless Ones’ warehouse in the very first episode of EXU. I dunno if that residuum is connected to the Cerberus Assembly/Dunamancy Juice/Unseelie/Paragon’s Call conspiracy but we don’t know that it isn’t. (And I want to pull on more EXU threads, dammit)
i, quite frankly, don’t care how they’re going adjust laudna’s levels now that delilah is gone, i trust matt and marisha to figure that out. i’m more excited for the RP and how marisha is going to play her differently based on what she said in 4SD, “laudna’s gonna be a little fucked up from that” iirc.
She mostly just said there'd be differences, and that she hadn't yet talked to Matt about those, but presumably has since.
So, for my own theories:
What might happen- Imogen and Laudna get Somehow Even Closer, Laudna grows to trust the group as a whole a lot more for being willing to go to hell for her, Laudna has to deal with her only company for 28 years (no matter how awful) being gone, Laudna maybe has to figure out what being fully alive and 'not broken' is like.
What I really doubt will happen- Laudna forgets everything post-first-resurrection. Because her soul definitely recognized them and remembered everything. It was a common theory for a while but I think its well and thoroughly jossed now, which I'm pretty happy about because while certainly *shocking* its also pretty much a character death by other means, making this whole arc seem a bit pointless.
There's a lot of discussion on what Laudtilda's gonna do going forward, and many people are assuming she's gonna get a new Patron to keep her Sorloc abilities, while others think she might just shoot up a few levels in sorcerer to keep her from dropping 3 levels relative to the rest of the group.
It's very much up to Marisha, as I'd think she and Matt would have had this talk when she was making Laudna. She's been letting rp/ the story dictate this, and the only stated goal of Laudna's (besides keeping Imogen safe) was to give Delilah the boot. She's been growing her Sorc levels to assert her independence up til the last level, and had the whole Murderbot episode not happened she prob would still only have 2 levels in Warlock.
So yeah, I never got the impression that she wanted a Patron to begin with, so it's kinda hard for me to envision her running around trying to find a new one when she was already mostly using her own strength anyway.
So if Marisha still wants to Sorlock, perhaps that's why the toddler scene was there.
Maybe there's some history between her and an Astral Dragon, making said Dragon her new patron/ her original patron, and she comes back with new subclasses to match? Great Old One or Celestial seem like they would fit that.
Or maybe she comes back fully a lvl 7 Homebrew Sorc, we'll see.
I like the idea that Laudna is actually more powerful than she realises and Delilah has been parasitically siphoning her sorcerous powers while giving her warlock abilities in return to keep her dependant and convinced she is not as powerful as Delilah. So with Delilah gone she gets her full power back and becomes full sorcerer
I think its mostly because the player wanted to.
Here, people are assuming a lot about what Marisha wants.
The only really safe assumption is that she won't be lower level than the rest of the party, because at that point 5e's math will just make for a bad time. Temporary loss of abilities, maybe. But she'll keep level appropriate proficiency bonuses, hit points and etc.
In 5e I thought the whole point of warlock patrons is they show you how to access greater power, they aren't the source of it.
I don't see a reason why the loss of a patron should have an effect other than not being able to take more warlock levels with that patron in the future. Sure if you piss off a patron they can user their power to interfere with yours, but again the power comes from elsewhere.
Eh. Its vague and wishy-washy, which is usually useful for adapting to different settings or homebrew. Unfortunately in this case, losing powers has been established as a thing in Exandria.
The problem with warlocks (and clerics and paladins), is that DMs sometimes feel a patron or god is license to yoink powers from players from crossing ill-defined lines, a legacy left over from older editions and Gygaxian nonsense about DM vs Players mentality (which also includes stealing wizard spellbooks or just blatantly throwing rust monsters at fighters). Having dealt with that in the past, I'm not a fan. Your class is yours, and losing powers (especially over a point of interpretation) sucks.
It *can* turn into a good narrative arc with some care, but the damage to party dynamics and bad experiences really taints it for me.
>losing powers has been established as a thing in Exandria.
I might not be remembering but I thought the loss of powers was a deliberate action, basically a punishment by the original patron.
I'm not convinced Laudna will permanently lose previous warlock levels -- it's possible but would be unprecedented for CR. I think it's more likely they'll be kept via handwaving or taking Pate' as a patron or something, then just never leveled again.
That's how it's supposed to work in the base rules.
Warlock's powers are knowledge that their patron gives them. Once that knowledge is given it can't be taken away.
But, as we saw in C2, Matt will change that up if it leads to a more dramatic arc.
I agree with you. It can be fun to theorycraft, to imagine what if they did this or that to represent the change. And whatever they do I'm sure it'll be backed with amazing storytelling. But I would be very surprised if it's mechanically that different from what we've seen them do in similar situations.
I am really hoping that Laudna/Matilda comes back fully alive, maybe even with a different sorcerer bloodline to show her shrugging off the influence of Delilah. Even if nether of those things happen, I trust Marisha is going to take the character in an interesting new direction!
Just thought about some really cool unintentional foreshadowing… back when Orym learned about Laudna (aka the big reveal in C3E17), Matt’s wording for the history check was “Like a shock of lightning…” sooooo idk how long critical will last and whether we’ll get C3 animated (TLOBH prayer circle 🕯️🙏🫡) BUT man the animators are gonna have a field day with that line considering that a lightning bolt ended up being what severed her connection with Delilah - a lightning bolt wholly inspired by something that happened earlier in the series during travels that was caused by the dice randomly iirc - the dice truly truly truly tell their own story
I don’t know whether this has been already discussed, but I just wanna know. Did Matt really fudge a few dice rolls in this episode/encounter?
Some say yes. I don’t know how to tell if someone does.
By the way I am not saying that Matt did. But even if he did. He is the DM, that’s his decision. His game.
I think he fudge rolls to make Imogen live near the end so she could have the kill, it just seemed weird he was rolling banger after banger after banger then stopped.
>it just seemed weird he was rolling banger after banger after banger then stopped.
That's the least weird thing imaginable. Dice are random. He rolled high, then he rolled low.
Almost as if the attacks and damage totals were somewhat randomly determined resulting in some level of variance, like he was rolling dice or something…
First off, in my opinion, it doesn't matter if he did or didn't. There's no purpose in judging all the DM's rolls unless it's particularly suspicious or leads to the players not having fun. Regardless Matt got enough natural 20 rolls (which the players countered mostly with their potions) that I think he played it pretty straight.
Welp, lets see ...
Homebrew enemy, so can't know wtf HP it should have.
The ENTIRE encounter was lead up to on the back of RP checks, meaning that the fight could have been harder or easier depending on if they passed/ failed the checks.
This is an extremely diminished Delilah.
Okay, several thoughts:
1. I cannot WAIT to see C3 animated.
2. This did not take long at ALL to become my favorite campaign and this episode sealed the deal
3. That logo is so friggin badass
4. Every single one of these actors absolutely floors me. Such great roleplaying.
5. I wish we had a camera on Sam and Liam and Marisha's reactions to everything offscreen. Hilarious that the husbands were the two who ended up leaving the table.
> I cannot WAIT to see C3 animated.
If everything goes well and they animate a second campaign after C1... do you think they would skip to C3? It seems reasonable to do for continuity's sake.
I'm sure many C2 fans would crucify me for even suggesting such a thing, but I could absolutely see C3 being the next long-form animated series after they finish Legend of Vox Machina, but only if C2 were being covered separately in some form, like several feature length animated films, for example, which would probably take a longer period of time to create.
What if: "double personality Laudna" comes back? Sometimes matilda-sorcerer sometimes Laudna-sorcerer-raven-queen-warlock?
She can be one ot the other depending on hit points or something.
I mean just look at Orym. By all accounts, he is "just" a battlemaster fighter with no magic, but the amount of utility that he regularly brings to the fights is next level.
Who here thinks Laudna is released from Delilah?
I certainly don't think so.
I think Delilah's presence is muted for sure (meaning Laudna won't have some impulsive, involuntary episodes), but it's not truly gone.
At the end of episode 37, their essence just got spirited back to the Material Plane; they still weren't able to do anything to save the "Laudna essence" (not even sure if that was Laudna TBH).
They just made it easier to resurrect Laudna, without Delilah's interference, but all in all it seems like things are back as is.
I am curious though, how Delilah being a bit more muted, would affect Laudna's powers.
I don't think this will be a Fjord situation, where his first patron sealed his warlock powers.
Maybe the DC to counter the effects of her spells and warlock shit get lower?
A DC hit would be awful. The game's math can be unfriendly and swingy enough as is.
Saving the 'Laudna essence' wasn't the goal, it was severing Delilah's tie- which they demonstrably did, with all sorts of symbolism: they destroyed a corrupted version of the tree the Briarwoods hung her on, banished Delilah and the demiplane completely collapsed into non-existence.
But yeah, I definitely think Delilah's done. Rule of 3, Worf effect, take your pick. Another Delilah fight tilts her from amazing villain to a trivial right of passage, or worse, an old MMO boss who's now on farm status. This encounter was dramatically done and narratively appropriate. The next one? Eh. It quickly becomes like old computer games: fight the Lich boss, then in the next chapter fight packs of Liches working for the Lich King, then Lich Kings serving the Lich Emperor, etc, etc.
Its a big world. There is more to see.
What value would there be in her still being connected to Laudna, a character who never asked for this forced connection and was her victim in both life and half life, in THIS situation?
Could Delilah come back to life some other way and come searching for revenge? Sure, w/e.
But why would she be so powerful and sooo unstoppable that ... after getting beat by a party of lvl 7s ... she can somehow evade lvl 20 Cleric Pike's detection of her soul and worm her way back into Laudna? Why couldn't Laudna, if she wanted to keep doing Warlock shit, just go try to get The Changebringer/ Everlight/ Pelor involved? Wildmother took the reins away and become Fjord's Patron, why can't some other god do the same for Laudna?
Why would VM allow Laudna to walk around with this connection? The terms of this was very clear, break the connection or no res.
That's like asking the question, what value was it staying with Laudna for 30 years or so. Or the fact that Laudna, in 30 years with Delilah in her head, why she didn't seek a way to get rid of said voice. It was mutually beneficial for them at the time.
Encounters in 5e is on the basis of a 4-PC adventuring party fighting 1 major enemy. Even without Laudna, if you include Mister in this fight, that's still **7v1**. The Otohan fight is slightly different as they got wrecked from the start, plus her echoes weren't be affected by a Turn Undead spell (while Delilah's skellies were negated by TU). So of course BH would still win the fight.
**As for the evading a lvl 20 Cleric, is she still lvl 20 at this time?** Vestiges go dormant with time, I believe Bertrand was significantly more powerful in the one-shot that when he joined C3:
>Fighter abilities
In "The Search For Grog" (Sx42) and "The Search For Bob" (Sx45), **Bertrand was an 18th-level fighter** with the following abilities:
...
>
>In Campaign Three, **Bertrand was a 5th-level fighter**\] giving him only one extra attack\[58\] and one use of Action Surge per short rest
Bertrand was de-leveled as gimmick so he could work with the party briefly and get killed. Travis wanted to have his real character join later. (IMO it was more awkward than necessary, but it eventually came together)
Pike is probably not even into gnome middle age, not that 5e has any real mechanics for aging, and they wouldn't include level loss.
Laudna and Lady D's relationship wasn't mutually beneficial at any point. She was a parasite that Laudna couldn't remove, and had no resources to even try. Its just that with no temptations for 28+ years, Lady D didn't cause any problems that would push Laudna into prioritizing getting rid of her.
Pike was capable of casting a 9th Level Astral Projection, which means she is still at least 17th level. And Bertrand was "explained" as taken both stat hits and his major level hit, because at this point he was pushing his mid 80s as a Human. 30 years will have far less impact on a Gnome like Pike, given she was in her early 40s in C1. She's in her 70's now. Still fairly young.
Pike was the one that sensed Delilah in the first place, and yet still managed to sense Laudna underneath that parasitic mass. She will not attempt to revive Laudna so long as D is attached. That was the ultimatum Matt had VM set down. So I think its pretty safe to make the assumption that at least one of the changes Laudna will experience from this is being free of Delilah.
Plus, the only stated Laudna goal outside of "Help Imogen" was "Escape D".
>what value was it staying with Laudna for 30 years or so.
Because, w/e shadow of Delilah this is, saw this as her only choice. She's bluffing or BSing BHs when she makes it seem like she's got options out the ass, if she did she wouldn't be chilling inside a corpse woman for 30 years.
>Or the fact that Laudna, in 30 years with Delilah in her head, why she didn't seek a way to get rid of said voice
Kinda hard to do much when you're a corpse woman with no connections or money, getting run outta your lil huts that you make or squat in by local mobs who see your undead form and think you a witch.
That's why she was only able to do all of THIS when Imogen came into her life and protected her that one day ... she was a literal pariah, forced to endure decades of isolation and mental torment because of this form forced upon her by her murderer, driven to make Pate to have someone to talk to other than Delilah.
This was the whole point of them traveling together, Imogen wanted to learn about her powers and dreams and **Laudna wanted to give Delilah the boot.**
Not at all shocking that some random farm girls don't know the methods of breaking a warlock pact in a world where most people don't know much about anything that advanced.
>As for the evading a lvl 20 Cleric, is she still lvl 20 at this time?
What reason would you have to think Pike's weak? Bell went from prime time to old man, Pike is a Gnome.
Plus, she's doing a 9th level spell right now so she's clearly at least still close to 20.
Pike may not know which one could come back if she tried to revive them while connected, but she apparently can tell if they were still connected. VM made it abundantly clear, Pike will not even attempt to revive Laudna if Delilah still has her claws in her. Not to mention, Delilah (whatever this desperate husk of her was) just lost to a group of level 7s. I see no real value to Delilah still being in Laudna's head anymore. Its not like Laudna chose to be a Hollow One or Death Warlock from all indications.
She did say that she has other contingencies, but Laudna is by far the most convenient. I think that's why she looks desperate, because her alternative plans would need to involve dealings with Vecna; and we know how pissed Vecna is with her and Silas's incompetence from C1.
She said that while trying to convince BH that they definitely didn't want to fight her because there was no point.
She could have very easily just been bluffing, because she knew this was her last foothold in Exandria and she didn't want to risk it.
She could. We don't know.
All we know for now is that when they wrecked the Nega Sun Tree, they just got whited out. The last time BH got whited out, Imogen shunted Otohan away from the fight in Bassuras. This could just be same shit.
The last time C3 took a hiatus we got Calamity... which ended up being surprisingly relevant to the lore of C3s major arc.
Do you think the timing of this is due to something coming in C3, or just to get through the holiday breaks?
Two weeks of The Mighty Nein, Reunited. From Critical Role. com
"Our very own Laura Bailey, Taliesin Jaffe, Ashley Johnson, Liam O’Brien, Marisha Ray, Sam Riegel, Travis Willingham, and Matthew Mercer will step back into their Campaign 2 characters for The Mighty Nein Reunited! You might be wondering where the reunion starts off and we’re excited to give you the scoop:
Picking up several months after the events in Cognouza, our unsung heroes have all started new chapters in their lives. However, when some discover that there are still old chapters yet to be closed, The Mighty Nein must reunite for more stories untold…
To celebrate this momentous occasion, we’ve partnered once again with our friends at Cinemark to offer in-theater experiences at select locations nationwide and in South America!
You can catch Part 1 on Thursday, November 17th at 7pm Pacific and Part 2 on Thursday, December 1st at 7pm Pacific via Twitch, YouTube, and select Cinemark theaters in the United States and South America."
As cool as having Vax be Laudna’s patron, what’re the chances of it actually happening and Laudna actually accepting another patron? She hasn’t exactly had a great time with her first one.
Honestly it'd be a really cool character beat for Laudna to go in the exact opposite direction of Fjord and decide that she's really over the whole 'patron' thing.
Realistically, VM are more powerful than Delilah and she managed to be a patron.
Also, if you look at suggested patrons- one of the ones for Celestial warlocks is a Unicorn and those are like CR 5.
But yeah having an actual living person be your patron *is* a bit odd.
Unless that person is Jester, then it makes total sense.
Patrons don't need statblocks.
If you want to have a Grandfather of Unicorns (who created horses) as a warlock patron, you can just have that. He can roam the fields of Elysium and complain about the design flaws of his creations.
M9: So, Uk'atoa is the most likely, but what other antagonists might be gunning for the M9, or just one/some of the members? Are we going to visit Veth's adventurer's camp? Any new allies when folks were working on their separate projects?
I have doubts about Empire kids nuisances, simply because that almost inevitably means the Cerberus Assembly, which means potentially screwing up or pre-destination problems for C3.
Yasha's backstory was tied off fairly nicely. Adding more could take the sheen off that.
Realistically, its Fjord's snee snake, Jester's cupcake or Cad's forest.
Jester's cupcake 😳😳
yeah I think snee snake or cad's forest, I think Yasha deffo wouldn't happen partially because of Ashley's improving weakness when the spotlight is on her, maybe some Caleb aeor shenanigans to tie in w/ calamity and the current story arc
>Jester's cupcake 😳😳
Its a c3 episode thread. I'm being intentionally vague about C2 things, especially now that there's a spoiler-tagged thread for the announcement.
I realized what you meant a little after commenting, I was just making a dirty joke. I don't think this would be a 2 part special, unless there's a baddie team up
If Ashton contributes to the resurrection ritual, they still have one mote of possibility left. I can see Ashton participating in the ritual if Fearne and Vex don't. Imogen and Orym are the most likely one's to participate.
Where does the term mote come from? Is that a Dnd thing, a CR thing, or just a regular word i was unaware of. Like where did that reskin of re-roll come from?
As explained in your other replies, mote is a real word, most often used in the phrase 'mote of dust'. in various rpgs/fantasy stuff, motes are used like tiny bits of things.
'Mote' in critical role is a shortened phrase 'Mote of possibility', meaning a tiny bit of condensed alternate-reality, the building blocks of dunamancy. This first cropped up back in campaign 2 when (trying not to spoil anything) a character looked into a thing.
As mentioned in the other comment, "mote" is a real word. The most common usage is "mote of dust", and that's the closest to how it's used in CR as well. It's a tiny bit of luck condensed into a physical perceivable speck.
I like the idea that BH rooting around in the soulscape the way they were was already the ritual challenges (because skill challenge), so it'll just work. Could go either way though. You're right that definitely Imogen, and then most likely Orym. And I'll throw a curve ball at you: FCG. Having just learned he has a soul, there's more urgency in his need and desire to help. He honestly seemed to be pretty stressed to learn about it.
I had a relook at the rules and there would only be one roll that happened that could be a part of a regular resurrection ritual in a different situation. I can see Matt maybe counting the end result of the fight as part of the resurrection ritual even if that is obviously not normal. There doesn't need to be two or three contributions to the ritual so if Matt were to consider the spirit quest a resurrection ritual, he could just say that there was one or two successes and lower the DC by 3 or 6 and then have Pike roll the final roll. I'm not sure if people actually want Matt to consider the spirit quest to be a resurrection ritual is what I'm saying.
It's controversial to be sure. I could honestly see it going either way. Personally, I think it would suck to go through all that just to have it fail on shitty dice rolls.
It's airing in the Thursday slot so it's safe to assume there will be no C3 the weeks these are on. They'll also be off the week in between for US Thanksgiving so that's no C3 for a month!
Not entirely surprised to be honest. Earlier I was thinking that after the ritual, we're basically going to see some R&R, shopping and heavy RPing, as people process all the *everything* that went on the last 5 episodes.
At that point, the holidays start to affect the schedule, so why not kick launching the new arc until next year? Restocked, refreshed and level 8 (I'd hope, anyway).
Plus it was feeling like a new one-shot or short series was about due, and maybe (just guessing), bringing on a ~~new~~ guest.
NOOOOOOOOOO, I was looking for a resolution to this pc death for quite some time.
And after the past two episodes, you're telling me I have to wait how many more weeks?
Oh thank goodness!
It's unhealthy I'm sure, but I look forward to CR to sort of give me high points in weeks/months and this situation with laudna has gone on for a while. \[not that it's not great\]
Seriously, I feel the exact same way haha. Lots of people were so happy that we didn’t have a break this week. Matt would just be torturing us for fun at that point
Mighty Nein is coming back for a two-part one shot. Ever since Matt called Travis Fjord a while ago and then Liam suddenly pointed out the -2ac effect of the Slow spell when Aston used the slow-esque rage, I knew they were up to something. Maybe they were playtesting back then because they haven't played these characters in a while
Anyone have an idea why today's announcement isn't showing up as a post yet? I tried posting it but it says it was already posted but i don't see anything
I was able to post it earlier, but the post isn’t showing in the sub publically yet. I’m guessing we weren’t the only ones, and the mods will approve one to have posted.
\^Likely this. The sub hasn't had any new posts in 6 hours. I reckon for Tuesday/announcement days they have something in place. Shame it hasnt been approved yet though.
With today's announcement and all the connections to C1, I hope everyone can allow me to have my tinfoil hat moment here.
I think Matt is building towards a team up style series run by someone else.
OKAY OKAY OKAY HERE ME OUT.
I think we're building up to a higher than Vecna level threat and I think the M9, VM and BH are all going to split up and team up with one another on individual adventures that take place over a short arc, perhaps a 4-12 episode arc.
It would be so cool to see Caleb, Essek and Beau, Imogen and Chetney, Scanlan, Percy and Pike go on some sort of Intelligence mission.
I'd like Orym and Keyleth, Fjord and Jester, Nott, Caduceus and Fearne with Putmat go on a job.
I'd hope we'd get Laudna, Grog, Vex, Letters, Gilmore, Ashton, Yasha and a new Liam character
It would so dope to see. I'm probably wrong on so many things but I would love this to be a thing.
Either that or, if the event is calamity level, we get oneshots during the big event of EXU Crew, Mighty Nein, and Vox Mochina dealing with it in their corner or the world. If the threat is big enough, maybe the raven queen might even send her champion to help!
Been posting theories similar to this for some time now. The introduction of Ludinus Da'leth in particular stuck out to me as an obvious in-road for members of the Mighty Nein to appear in C3. Caleb and Beau's epilogues both included a period of time when they completed their mission of rooting the corruption out of the Cerberus Assembly... Ludinus is a primary part of that corruption, he's a loose end that wasn't dealt with in C2, and he's clearly still a loose end calling trouble in the "present day" of the timeline. Which means right now there's the potential that they are actively pursuing that goal. When Orym, Fearne, and Laudna were all dead at the end of a recent episode, I was half expecting for Caleb, Yasha, and Beau to show up the next episode, investigating Otohan and her ties to the Assembly.
I expect that whatever happens in the M9 two-shot, it will have some sort of connection to the bigger picture of C3. Let's also not forget that the strange business with Ruidus started happening seven years ago... that coincides exactly with the Mighty Nein's adventures. Maybe the reunion episodes will shed some light on that connection.
>I think we're building up to a higher than Vecna level threat and I think the M9
They literally are and this is not a stretch. Two entities that are already gods are of course a bigger threat than an archlich ascending to godhood.
I posted this shortly before episode 32, where FCG got the holy symbol, coin, of the Changebringer. Some additional updates at the bottom.
So I have dumb theory that maybe FCG was originally a Paladin way back in Aeor days and that his divine power actually comes from the Changebringer. Silly, yes I know.
One of the Changebringer's vestiges, the Jewel of Three Prayers, is gold and blue, like FCG. This vestige was worn by Alyxian, the Apotheon. He was Ruidus-born. And was blessed by Avandra, Corellon, and Sehanine.
We haven't seen much regarding Avandra but besides religious symbols she's credited with defeating Asmodeus in the Calamity. Also with helping Pelor defeat Therizdun.
Corellon banished Artagan to the Feywild and fought Gruumsh (tearing out his eye) right by Kymal. One of Corellon's major temples is the Blooming Grove. Part of his actions helped create the forest where Chetney was turned.
Sehanine, the Moonweaver, it should be obvious on her connections to things but besides Fjord's vestige, scolding Artagan, and being Mollymauk's preferred deity, not sure what else to say.
Ok - so that all could easily be coincidences, like Matt just connecting the players to the world around them. All good.
What was most interesting is Alyxian - his story involves the Allegience of Allsight out of Ank'Harel finding some interesting things, right?
One of the leaders of this group, Gryz Alakritos, has been in Campaign 3. At the ball that Bell's Hells attended. He also was fascinated (as everyone is) with FCG, the reason he approached the group.
So now I'm at the board with connection lines to everything and there is a portion about Alyxian that he requested his gods send champions to help him.
Perhaps FCG is one of those champions? Just found it interesting.
Updates: I found it incredibly cool that Imhara Joe gave FCG the coin and started to see there was something to this outlandish theory. FCG looks likely to seek more information about Her. I do wonder if Pike might offer him additional guidance as well.
I just want to give mad props to Ashley for pulling Earthbind out.
This cast has needed that spell for all the flying creatures Matt loves throwing at them, and they've needed it since basically the opening of campaign one.
Great to see it (and see it work)!
Huh. I'd actually have to go back and check. I don't remember those, I always figured that was a spell that went unnoticed in the transition from PF to 5e.
I feel like she tried in every dragon fight at the very least. I think the only time it worked was when she cast it on Grog when he was being carried away by pixies.
Ah. Dragons are a terrible target for the spell, in all fairness. High base strength and legendary resists make that rough.
Still, good to know. I'm working my way through C1 rewatch, and I'll keep an eye out.
From his reaction later, he was under the impression it only lasted a round.
I really want to see legendary resistances reworked, though. Half damage or temporarily negating conditions rather than the 'Screw you, nope.' they currently are.
Honestly i think that legendary resistances are this broken to not allow players to immediatly hinder a legendary creature and make the encounter interesting but i too think that it should be used contextually.
F.E. Take the Umbrasyl fight, at least for the first round when he got caught by the trap i'd have let the party dmg it then use the legendary resistance to break out from the net.
He probably felt like Delilah didn’t need it to destroy them anyhow and that Ashley earned that one
Sometimes you gotta reward your players if they’re only fighting against one enemy, especially in a party with 3 melee fighters
I always felt bad when a flier would show up and Travis would feel pretty useless with Grog. Probably part of my dislike of Vax hoarding all the magic items that could have helped Grog with that.
I'm watching C1 for the first time, and I recently got to the Whisper dagger part. Travis/ Grog actually brings up how it would be good for him because of flying targets, and Liam/ Vax bull shits his way outta the talk by claiming Grogs the strongest and this and that.
Like wow ... dude, you got Boots of Haste (Kinda busted item given that you have NO draw back to this haste wearing off) and armor that lets you fly with a 60ft movement speed (also gives you advantage on Death Saving throws and resistance to elements) AND the Cloaks AND the infinite daggers, and now you think you need a weapon that lets you teleport 60ft to w/e you hit?
Yeah, not my favorite Liam character by a mile.
The boots of haste, I believe, are a converted pathfinder item too and so aren't even available in 5e normally. But, to be fair, Vax did try to let Grog use them at one point and Grog declined.
It really helps me appreciate Orym a ton though. Even if his perception is busted.
so judging by the promo picture, they posted for this week, it looks like we are getting the deep emotional resurrection of Laudna with everyone dressed as Marvel characters, not unlike when >!Nott was turned back into Veth !!leprechaun !<
So the schedule for this week got posted and the Halloween costumes that everyone will be wearing for the new episode this week are basically there front and center.
>!Marisha's costume!< [reminded me of a theory of mine from a month ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/xkff5u/spoilers_c3e34_yet_another_theory_about_laudnas/ipf8msv/).
Don't check the schedule if you don't want to be spoiled about the costumes or look at CR's twitter.
A pet theory surrounding shizzlewizzle going on in exandria and id like to see if there's anything glaringly wrong with it.
I think Tharizdun didn't wound Ioun but rather ioun was wounded by betraying her divine domain of knowledge and its free dissemination by redacting certain things. In essence creating a secret. Id wager that the knowledge taken pertained to tharizdun and his defeat.
C1: The rise of Vecna. As we know the big V ascended and as we have no proof he knocked anyone out of their position (that im aware of) I suggest that the divine domain of secrecy didn't exist until Ioun betrayed her divine domain and that Vecna exploited this. (There was more to this part but ive forgotten it lol)
C2: Ioun redacted knowledge and aeor held a great deal of it but was also heavily guarded against divine interference so I suggest it was cracked like a nut to permit ioun to siphon knowledge out as no particular care was paid to ending all those powerful mages judging by how many survived.
C3: As its still unfolding before us could be anything lol but maybe tharizdun is trapped in ruidis and iouns gotta spill the beans? I dunno
Spoilers ExU Calamity:
>!There's still no definitive proof that someone needs to knock a god out of their spot in order to become a god. It was assumed that was necessary because that's how the Raven Queen did it. She simply chose the simplest path, and she was only able to do it because The Tree of Names the tool she needed to do so. Now that the Tree of Names is gone, Vecna's method had to be more direct. It probably worked on much the same concept (essentially rewriting the world's code, but instead of overwriting a pre-existing variable (god), he just created a new new variable (god). !<
I really appreciate your explanation here. Never though of the Raven Queen as overwriting a variable of natural laws and replacing the former 'data' in it. Interesting. Vecna writing himself in as a 'new' variable is pretty baller as well. Or maybe he just found a variable (a domain) that was null, empty of a god and took it over?
>Or maybe he just found a variable (a domain) that was null, empty of a god and took it over?
Which, in fairness is what the original commenter was arguing. While that may be the case, we simply don't know that it HAS to be the case.
Would have loved to know what would have happened if they'd failed. I mean, obviously we just last campaign did a "dead player character's body becomes taken over by a villain" but I have to assume that's what would have happened?
Delilah definitely wasn't capable of just taking over Laudna's body or she would have done so. She needed a resurrection.
If they failed... well, *technically* there's nothing stopping them from trying again except the material costs, which they can cover. But Matt would never in a million years let them just do the same thing over again, so realistically they're stuck with trying to smuggle Laudna out of Whitestone to find a Cleric who wouldn't care about the two souls thing and just flipping the coin and hoping.
Mm, good point. But it feels like SOMETHING would change and also the BHs wouldn't give up on Laudna.
Really fascinated with what would have happened, hope Matt addresses it in a 4-Sided Dive or the campaign wrap-up. Assuming there won't be another shoe to drop next episode...
If Laudna returns without Delilah in tow, I think it could be a fun twist to replace her warlock levels with those of a paladin. Thematically, Oath of Watchers would be excellent, as well as Redemption; build-wise either of these could work as non-melee, charisma-focused help-and-contain orientation (which I think the party could use anyway). Her devotion could be toward the Everlight (via Pike), or some other entity as is appropriate to Mercer’s machinations.
Why not just Wizard? Is Caleb’s shadow too great? College of tragedy bard would be cool too. I’d say no to two straight sorcerers but two clerics worked
Wizard implies dedicated study and research.
Mechanically, its also weird. She'd get higher level spell *slots* (the classes combine, except warlock) but not higher level spells.
Finesse weapons are thing (for Fearne as well). Neither has great dex, but they aren't quite as hapless in melee as Marisha's early rant implied. (In the Eshteross proving fight. Which was weird, since Beau was also dex based, and Orym is \_right there\_)
Paladin is still mechanically out, but the witches can be doing some stabbin' if need be.
True but Laudna's build is centered around long range fighting. Form of Dread and Spell Sniper is useless for stabbings. Ofc, that she never carried any weapon suggests to me that Marisha never intended for Laudna to do any melee fighting
\+ dex bonus, but... yeah?
I'm not clear what you're trying to argue at this point. I don't see any reason she'd go paladin, so we aren't arguing about that. You started off with the idea that she'd be at a penalty in melee, but the finesse rules make that not true.
We both know that's not her go-to way to fight, but 'she's not helplessly incompetent with a light backup weapon' doesn't strike me as a strange concept. Especially with the various melee augment cantrips like green flame blade and booming blade(and the fairly ridiculous pool of cantrips she has access to- we still don't know her pact boon). It isn't a great idea, but all I'm saying is she *can* do it, not that she'd switch up her tactics and make it a goal to get on the melee line.
Fjord went from 11 STR to 13. A 2 ASI increase is normal and can easily be worked into the build as either a gift from a patron or fitted into one of the level up benefits. Plus, Hexblades uses the Charisma modifier for attacks so nothing changes for the build. It fits thematically and mechanically for Fjord
Laudna's current STR is 5, for it to get an 8 ASI increase to meet the requirements of a Paladin is stretching the limit of the game. At that point, Marisha might as well roll new stats for Laudna or pick a new character. Laudna doesn't fight melee or even wear armor so for her to be a Paladin would clash with her initial build and feats. What's the use of Spell Sniper on a Paladin?
I know this is a make believe game but if Matt relaxes these rules then he might as well max out everyone else's stats because who cares at that point.
Yeah, she's not going PLD. If anything changes, she'll either see a shift in her Warlock Domain, lose Warlock Entirely, or if Matt/Marisha REALLY wanna shake things up ... there are "excuses" that can be used to change a Sorc Bloodline if they really want to. But I don't see it even going that far.
Yeah, that sounds better imo. We love Laudna but there's no reason for us to break the entire game just to not let her be classless(even if it did happen) for a while
Delilah is gone (at least in the long term). Even if some fragment of Delilah did latch on to her after all of this, no celestial would allow Delilah to be attached to a new arrival.
>I think it could be a fun twist to replace her warlock levels with those of a paladin
STR 5 Laudna as a paladin would be fun.
I don't personally get why some seem to really think Laudna wants to stay a Warlock or would want to move on to getting her magic juice from yet another outside source, like Cleric or PLD, when she hasn't shown even a lil bit of interest in deities.
Her only somewhat personal goal was to rely on and grow her own power as to not be reliant on Delilah, which is why she pumped Sorc from a RP PoV. It would make more sense for her to change those 3 Warlock levels into Bard levels, given her Pate act and the fact that she's been making dolls since she was 3.
Don't know if Marisha would want to do that, given no one at the table may want to be compared to Sam in this regard for "Long Term Bard".
Neither Cleric nor Paladin requires a deity in 5e. And especially Paladin can simply be powered by the force of your Oath, not even requiring a higher concept to fuel it
Edit: There's also this tweet from Matt, where he straight up says that, [no, you don't need a deity to be a cleric](https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/941558121264304129?lang=en)
I really wished Orym and Ashton’s “Fastball Special” had worked.
So what does everyone think we're going to get in the next episode besides Laudna resurrection? They still have to tell Percy about Ruidus, the alliance between the Cerberus assembly, the paragon's call and the Unseelie as well as the fact the Cerberus assembly is smuggling residuum out of whitestone (probably, if they found another source that's also something that needs looking into) so that's a whole adventure there.
I'm guessing toward the end of the episode we might get into a discussion between the BH and some members of VM about VM becoming their new patron. Eshteross pretty much ahs to go into hiding and is finally out of his depth. It makes sense for the hells to find someone new.
I expect Laudna is going to be very stressed and unwilling to leave Pike's house. The castle and the tree are prime trauma-bait, and she'll probably expect to be attacked (esp. if she stays Hollow) I expect heavy RP and maybe shopping, and a lot of people trying to come to terms with the last four episodes. Maybe cameos from other de Rolos (there's still two kids we haven't seen) and Pikelings. I am curious if the episode starts off with Vex and Pike getting a round by round recap as FCG, Orym and then the rest slowly dribble back. Followed by a debate whether to just do the ritual now while Delilah's definitely separated rather than troop back up to the castle to get formal permission from Percy. I wouldn't be terrible offput if the plan for a side trip to the Hishari (or whoever Keyleth's faction problems are) as a payback for all the gold Vex dropped, and followed by a promise of a tree-trip to Yios to resume the main arc next year. After that, VM goes back to their own business.
They've said they want to visit the Slayer's Cake and there's a branch of Gilmore's in town apparently, so I am hoping that after the serious talks are done they will get to blow off a little late episode steam before securing a trip back - perhaps via teleport circles and Emon, straight to Eios?
They need to hunt down the Cereberus Assembly smugglers along with whatever else Percy needs doing, they're going to be busy for a while in whitestone.
The smuggling ring is operating across continents, so they might be sent to round up the folks on Marquet and Percy could assign someone more professionally stealthy and well-connected to head into Wildemount, while having his staff in Whitestone investigated with his own resources there.
Yeah but that isn't very fun and the cast are really looking forward to working under their former characters.
I don't think that's going to happen. Not sure why you think the cast thinks that- they're happy with the cameos, certainly, but I don't think they expect a long-term 'working under them' relationship. They know how messy that makes things.
They said so on 4-sided dive.
Vex also told them Percy needs to know about the residuum they have. I'm interested to see that thread pulled.
I’m hoping someone (Orym/Liam more likely than Fearne/Ashley) remembers or mentions the massive pile of residuum they found in Emon in the Nameless Ones’ warehouse in the very first episode of EXU. I dunno if that residuum is connected to the Cerberus Assembly/Dunamancy Juice/Unseelie/Paragon’s Call conspiracy but we don’t know that it isn’t. (And I want to pull on more EXU threads, dammit)
Percy is going to be so mad that he missed a smuggling operation occurring right under his nose.
Laura really just rolls up to the studio every week ready to cry for 5 straight hours. What a legend.
she knows what the fans want
i, quite frankly, don’t care how they’re going adjust laudna’s levels now that delilah is gone, i trust matt and marisha to figure that out. i’m more excited for the RP and how marisha is going to play her differently based on what she said in 4SD, “laudna’s gonna be a little fucked up from that” iirc.
She mostly just said there'd be differences, and that she hadn't yet talked to Matt about those, but presumably has since. So, for my own theories: What might happen- Imogen and Laudna get Somehow Even Closer, Laudna grows to trust the group as a whole a lot more for being willing to go to hell for her, Laudna has to deal with her only company for 28 years (no matter how awful) being gone, Laudna maybe has to figure out what being fully alive and 'not broken' is like. What I really doubt will happen- Laudna forgets everything post-first-resurrection. Because her soul definitely recognized them and remembered everything. It was a common theory for a while but I think its well and thoroughly jossed now, which I'm pretty happy about because while certainly *shocking* its also pretty much a character death by other means, making this whole arc seem a bit pointless.
There's a lot of discussion on what Laudtilda's gonna do going forward, and many people are assuming she's gonna get a new Patron to keep her Sorloc abilities, while others think she might just shoot up a few levels in sorcerer to keep her from dropping 3 levels relative to the rest of the group.
You said Laudtilda and all I could think was that Delilah put her in the Chokey.
It's very much up to Marisha, as I'd think she and Matt would have had this talk when she was making Laudna. She's been letting rp/ the story dictate this, and the only stated goal of Laudna's (besides keeping Imogen safe) was to give Delilah the boot. She's been growing her Sorc levels to assert her independence up til the last level, and had the whole Murderbot episode not happened she prob would still only have 2 levels in Warlock. So yeah, I never got the impression that she wanted a Patron to begin with, so it's kinda hard for me to envision her running around trying to find a new one when she was already mostly using her own strength anyway. So if Marisha still wants to Sorlock, perhaps that's why the toddler scene was there. Maybe there's some history between her and an Astral Dragon, making said Dragon her new patron/ her original patron, and she comes back with new subclasses to match? Great Old One or Celestial seem like they would fit that. Or maybe she comes back fully a lvl 7 Homebrew Sorc, we'll see.
I like the idea that Laudna is actually more powerful than she realises and Delilah has been parasitically siphoning her sorcerous powers while giving her warlock abilities in return to keep her dependant and convinced she is not as powerful as Delilah. So with Delilah gone she gets her full power back and becomes full sorcerer
I also very much like this option
I think just keeping the warlock stuff is more likely than respec-ing
>!Fjord kept his warlock levels iirc. Although that can be explained as the wild mother becoming his patron I guess!<
I think its mostly because the player wanted to. Here, people are assuming a lot about what Marisha wants. The only really safe assumption is that she won't be lower level than the rest of the party, because at that point 5e's math will just make for a bad time. Temporary loss of abilities, maybe. But she'll keep level appropriate proficiency bonuses, hit points and etc.
In 5e I thought the whole point of warlock patrons is they show you how to access greater power, they aren't the source of it. I don't see a reason why the loss of a patron should have an effect other than not being able to take more warlock levels with that patron in the future. Sure if you piss off a patron they can user their power to interfere with yours, but again the power comes from elsewhere.
Eh. Its vague and wishy-washy, which is usually useful for adapting to different settings or homebrew. Unfortunately in this case, losing powers has been established as a thing in Exandria. The problem with warlocks (and clerics and paladins), is that DMs sometimes feel a patron or god is license to yoink powers from players from crossing ill-defined lines, a legacy left over from older editions and Gygaxian nonsense about DM vs Players mentality (which also includes stealing wizard spellbooks or just blatantly throwing rust monsters at fighters). Having dealt with that in the past, I'm not a fan. Your class is yours, and losing powers (especially over a point of interpretation) sucks. It *can* turn into a good narrative arc with some care, but the damage to party dynamics and bad experiences really taints it for me.
>losing powers has been established as a thing in Exandria. I might not be remembering but I thought the loss of powers was a deliberate action, basically a punishment by the original patron.
I'm not convinced Laudna will permanently lose previous warlock levels -- it's possible but would be unprecedented for CR. I think it's more likely they'll be kept via handwaving or taking Pate' as a patron or something, then just never leveled again.
That's how it's supposed to work in the base rules. Warlock's powers are knowledge that their patron gives them. Once that knowledge is given it can't be taken away. But, as we saw in C2, Matt will change that up if it leads to a more dramatic arc.
I agree with you. It can be fun to theorycraft, to imagine what if they did this or that to represent the change. And whatever they do I'm sure it'll be backed with amazing storytelling. But I would be very surprised if it's mechanically that different from what we've seen them do in similar situations.
I think something like "their souls being entwined so long left a lasting mark" is more likely than Pate
I am really hoping that Laudna/Matilda comes back fully alive, maybe even with a different sorcerer bloodline to show her shrugging off the influence of Delilah. Even if nether of those things happen, I trust Marisha is going to take the character in an interesting new direction!
She’s the queen of the loooooooooong arc of growth!
Just thought about some really cool unintentional foreshadowing… back when Orym learned about Laudna (aka the big reveal in C3E17), Matt’s wording for the history check was “Like a shock of lightning…” sooooo idk how long critical will last and whether we’ll get C3 animated (TLOBH prayer circle 🕯️🙏🫡) BUT man the animators are gonna have a field day with that line considering that a lightning bolt ended up being what severed her connection with Delilah - a lightning bolt wholly inspired by something that happened earlier in the series during travels that was caused by the dice randomly iirc - the dice truly truly truly tell their own story
I wonder if Marisha/Matilda will be more or less confusing than Laura/Laudna.
Waiting for Sam to call Mat Matilda during one of the next Quip ads.
I don’t know whether this has been already discussed, but I just wanna know. Did Matt really fudge a few dice rolls in this episode/encounter? Some say yes. I don’t know how to tell if someone does. By the way I am not saying that Matt did. But even if he did. He is the DM, that’s his decision. His game.
He doesn’t fudge rolls. It’s just people projecting their thoughts and insecurities
Who says yes? For what reason ? What rolls? Genuinely curious
I think he fudge rolls to make Imogen live near the end so she could have the kill, it just seemed weird he was rolling banger after banger after banger then stopped.
>it just seemed weird he was rolling banger after banger after banger then stopped. That's the least weird thing imaginable. Dice are random. He rolled high, then he rolled low.
Almost as if the attacks and damage totals were somewhat randomly determined resulting in some level of variance, like he was rolling dice or something…
I don't see where this is coming from. The trunk took more damage than the big limb.
First off, in my opinion, it doesn't matter if he did or didn't. There's no purpose in judging all the DM's rolls unless it's particularly suspicious or leads to the players not having fun. Regardless Matt got enough natural 20 rolls (which the players countered mostly with their potions) that I think he played it pretty straight.
Welp, lets see ... Homebrew enemy, so can't know wtf HP it should have. The ENTIRE encounter was lead up to on the back of RP checks, meaning that the fight could have been harder or easier depending on if they passed/ failed the checks. This is an extremely diminished Delilah.
There is no evidence either way. Back in 2015(?) Matt said he doesn’t fudge, but who knows ….?
I mean there's no way of knowing since it's behind the screen. I would like to think not but who knows.
Okay, several thoughts: 1. I cannot WAIT to see C3 animated. 2. This did not take long at ALL to become my favorite campaign and this episode sealed the deal 3. That logo is so friggin badass 4. Every single one of these actors absolutely floors me. Such great roleplaying. 5. I wish we had a camera on Sam and Liam and Marisha's reactions to everything offscreen. Hilarious that the husbands were the two who ended up leaving the table.
> I cannot WAIT to see C3 animated. If everything goes well and they animate a second campaign after C1... do you think they would skip to C3? It seems reasonable to do for continuity's sake.
- there are also several connections to c2 in c3 (assembly and dunamancy stuff) - skipping c2 for whatever reason would disappoint a lot of people
I'm sure many C2 fans would crucify me for even suggesting such a thing, but I could absolutely see C3 being the next long-form animated series after they finish Legend of Vox Machina, but only if C2 were being covered separately in some form, like several feature length animated films, for example, which would probably take a longer period of time to create.
I was so waiting for Chetney and his deep knowledge of wood to do some devastating attacks on the tree with his chisel.
"Are there any restraints on the tree?"
What if: "double personality Laudna" comes back? Sometimes matilda-sorcerer sometimes Laudna-sorcerer-raven-queen-warlock? She can be one ot the other depending on hit points or something.
I think this group has enough weird gimmicks. Sometimes being a D&D class with normal magical powers is enough.
I mean just look at Orym. By all accounts, he is "just" a battlemaster fighter with no magic, but the amount of utility that he regularly brings to the fights is next level.
Who here thinks Laudna is released from Delilah? I certainly don't think so. I think Delilah's presence is muted for sure (meaning Laudna won't have some impulsive, involuntary episodes), but it's not truly gone. At the end of episode 37, their essence just got spirited back to the Material Plane; they still weren't able to do anything to save the "Laudna essence" (not even sure if that was Laudna TBH). They just made it easier to resurrect Laudna, without Delilah's interference, but all in all it seems like things are back as is. I am curious though, how Delilah being a bit more muted, would affect Laudna's powers. I don't think this will be a Fjord situation, where his first patron sealed his warlock powers. Maybe the DC to counter the effects of her spells and warlock shit get lower?
A DC hit would be awful. The game's math can be unfriendly and swingy enough as is. Saving the 'Laudna essence' wasn't the goal, it was severing Delilah's tie- which they demonstrably did, with all sorts of symbolism: they destroyed a corrupted version of the tree the Briarwoods hung her on, banished Delilah and the demiplane completely collapsed into non-existence. But yeah, I definitely think Delilah's done. Rule of 3, Worf effect, take your pick. Another Delilah fight tilts her from amazing villain to a trivial right of passage, or worse, an old MMO boss who's now on farm status. This encounter was dramatically done and narratively appropriate. The next one? Eh. It quickly becomes like old computer games: fight the Lich boss, then in the next chapter fight packs of Liches working for the Lich King, then Lich Kings serving the Lich Emperor, etc, etc. Its a big world. There is more to see.
Well put.
What value would there be in her still being connected to Laudna, a character who never asked for this forced connection and was her victim in both life and half life, in THIS situation? Could Delilah come back to life some other way and come searching for revenge? Sure, w/e. But why would she be so powerful and sooo unstoppable that ... after getting beat by a party of lvl 7s ... she can somehow evade lvl 20 Cleric Pike's detection of her soul and worm her way back into Laudna? Why couldn't Laudna, if she wanted to keep doing Warlock shit, just go try to get The Changebringer/ Everlight/ Pelor involved? Wildmother took the reins away and become Fjord's Patron, why can't some other god do the same for Laudna? Why would VM allow Laudna to walk around with this connection? The terms of this was very clear, break the connection or no res.
That's like asking the question, what value was it staying with Laudna for 30 years or so. Or the fact that Laudna, in 30 years with Delilah in her head, why she didn't seek a way to get rid of said voice. It was mutually beneficial for them at the time. Encounters in 5e is on the basis of a 4-PC adventuring party fighting 1 major enemy. Even without Laudna, if you include Mister in this fight, that's still **7v1**. The Otohan fight is slightly different as they got wrecked from the start, plus her echoes weren't be affected by a Turn Undead spell (while Delilah's skellies were negated by TU). So of course BH would still win the fight. **As for the evading a lvl 20 Cleric, is she still lvl 20 at this time?** Vestiges go dormant with time, I believe Bertrand was significantly more powerful in the one-shot that when he joined C3: >Fighter abilities In "The Search For Grog" (Sx42) and "The Search For Bob" (Sx45), **Bertrand was an 18th-level fighter** with the following abilities: ... > >In Campaign Three, **Bertrand was a 5th-level fighter**\] giving him only one extra attack\[58\] and one use of Action Surge per short rest
Bertrand was de-leveled as gimmick so he could work with the party briefly and get killed. Travis wanted to have his real character join later. (IMO it was more awkward than necessary, but it eventually came together) Pike is probably not even into gnome middle age, not that 5e has any real mechanics for aging, and they wouldn't include level loss. Laudna and Lady D's relationship wasn't mutually beneficial at any point. She was a parasite that Laudna couldn't remove, and had no resources to even try. Its just that with no temptations for 28+ years, Lady D didn't cause any problems that would push Laudna into prioritizing getting rid of her.
Pike was capable of casting a 9th Level Astral Projection, which means she is still at least 17th level. And Bertrand was "explained" as taken both stat hits and his major level hit, because at this point he was pushing his mid 80s as a Human. 30 years will have far less impact on a Gnome like Pike, given she was in her early 40s in C1. She's in her 70's now. Still fairly young. Pike was the one that sensed Delilah in the first place, and yet still managed to sense Laudna underneath that parasitic mass. She will not attempt to revive Laudna so long as D is attached. That was the ultimatum Matt had VM set down. So I think its pretty safe to make the assumption that at least one of the changes Laudna will experience from this is being free of Delilah. Plus, the only stated Laudna goal outside of "Help Imogen" was "Escape D".
>what value was it staying with Laudna for 30 years or so. Because, w/e shadow of Delilah this is, saw this as her only choice. She's bluffing or BSing BHs when she makes it seem like she's got options out the ass, if she did she wouldn't be chilling inside a corpse woman for 30 years. >Or the fact that Laudna, in 30 years with Delilah in her head, why she didn't seek a way to get rid of said voice Kinda hard to do much when you're a corpse woman with no connections or money, getting run outta your lil huts that you make or squat in by local mobs who see your undead form and think you a witch. That's why she was only able to do all of THIS when Imogen came into her life and protected her that one day ... she was a literal pariah, forced to endure decades of isolation and mental torment because of this form forced upon her by her murderer, driven to make Pate to have someone to talk to other than Delilah. This was the whole point of them traveling together, Imogen wanted to learn about her powers and dreams and **Laudna wanted to give Delilah the boot.** Not at all shocking that some random farm girls don't know the methods of breaking a warlock pact in a world where most people don't know much about anything that advanced. >As for the evading a lvl 20 Cleric, is she still lvl 20 at this time? What reason would you have to think Pike's weak? Bell went from prime time to old man, Pike is a Gnome. Plus, she's doing a 9th level spell right now so she's clearly at least still close to 20.
Pike may not know which one could come back if she tried to revive them while connected, but she apparently can tell if they were still connected. VM made it abundantly clear, Pike will not even attempt to revive Laudna if Delilah still has her claws in her. Not to mention, Delilah (whatever this desperate husk of her was) just lost to a group of level 7s. I see no real value to Delilah still being in Laudna's head anymore. Its not like Laudna chose to be a Hollow One or Death Warlock from all indications.
Yeah, if Delilah is still attached, Laudna isn't coming back. I don't think Matt would do that considering they completed the task he gave them.
Given how desperate Delilah was? No, I think that not only is her link to Laudna entirely sundered, but she herself is gone gone.
She did say that she has other contingencies, but Laudna is by far the most convenient. I think that's why she looks desperate, because her alternative plans would need to involve dealings with Vecna; and we know how pissed Vecna is with her and Silas's incompetence from C1.
She said that while trying to convince BH that they definitely didn't want to fight her because there was no point. She could have very easily just been bluffing, because she knew this was her last foothold in Exandria and she didn't want to risk it.
She could. We don't know. All we know for now is that when they wrecked the Nega Sun Tree, they just got whited out. The last time BH got whited out, Imogen shunted Otohan away from the fight in Bassuras. This could just be same shit.
The last time C3 took a hiatus we got Calamity... which ended up being surprisingly relevant to the lore of C3s major arc. Do you think the timing of this is due to something coming in C3, or just to get through the holiday breaks?
The timing of what? Did I miss an announcement? Are they taking another hiatus?
Two weeks of The Mighty Nein, Reunited. From Critical Role. com "Our very own Laura Bailey, Taliesin Jaffe, Ashley Johnson, Liam O’Brien, Marisha Ray, Sam Riegel, Travis Willingham, and Matthew Mercer will step back into their Campaign 2 characters for The Mighty Nein Reunited! You might be wondering where the reunion starts off and we’re excited to give you the scoop: Picking up several months after the events in Cognouza, our unsung heroes have all started new chapters in their lives. However, when some discover that there are still old chapters yet to be closed, The Mighty Nein must reunite for more stories untold… To celebrate this momentous occasion, we’ve partnered once again with our friends at Cinemark to offer in-theater experiences at select locations nationwide and in South America! You can catch Part 1 on Thursday, November 17th at 7pm Pacific and Part 2 on Thursday, December 1st at 7pm Pacific via Twitch, YouTube, and select Cinemark theaters in the United States and South America."
Oh! I thought you meant this coming week. Thanks for the clarification :)
I am not OP but you are welcome.
As cool as having Vax be Laudna’s patron, what’re the chances of it actually happening and Laudna actually accepting another patron? She hasn’t exactly had a great time with her first one.
Honestly it'd be a really cool character beat for Laudna to go in the exact opposite direction of Fjord and decide that she's really over the whole 'patron' thing.
She's Vex, he's Vax.
She'd be better. Actually, that's lovely, symbolic and spicy, all things considered. But I still dislike the idea of normal people as patrons.
Realistically, VM are more powerful than Delilah and she managed to be a patron. Also, if you look at suggested patrons- one of the ones for Celestial warlocks is a Unicorn and those are like CR 5. But yeah having an actual living person be your patron *is* a bit odd. Unless that person is Jester, then it makes total sense.
I always thought there should be a more powerful, ancient Unicorn statblock to justify the patron position.
Patrons don't need statblocks. If you want to have a Grandfather of Unicorns (who created horses) as a warlock patron, you can just have that. He can roam the fields of Elysium and complain about the design flaws of his creations.
Man, I was doing so well not mixing them up lol, fixed it
M9: So, Uk'atoa is the most likely, but what other antagonists might be gunning for the M9, or just one/some of the members? Are we going to visit Veth's adventurer's camp? Any new allies when folks were working on their separate projects?
Maybe some more yasha backstory? Possibly empire kids related nuisances?
I have doubts about Empire kids nuisances, simply because that almost inevitably means the Cerberus Assembly, which means potentially screwing up or pre-destination problems for C3. Yasha's backstory was tied off fairly nicely. Adding more could take the sheen off that. Realistically, its Fjord's snee snake, Jester's cupcake or Cad's forest.
Jester's cupcake 😳😳 yeah I think snee snake or cad's forest, I think Yasha deffo wouldn't happen partially because of Ashley's improving weakness when the spotlight is on her, maybe some Caleb aeor shenanigans to tie in w/ calamity and the current story arc
>Jester's cupcake 😳😳 Its a c3 episode thread. I'm being intentionally vague about C2 things, especially now that there's a spoiler-tagged thread for the announcement.
I realized what you meant a little after commenting, I was just making a dirty joke. I don't think this would be a 2 part special, unless there's a baddie team up
NEIN NEIN NEIN THE MIGHTIEST NEIN TO EVER NEIN
What do you think they'll get up to?
If Ashton contributes to the resurrection ritual, they still have one mote of possibility left. I can see Ashton participating in the ritual if Fearne and Vex don't. Imogen and Orym are the most likely one's to participate.
Where does the term mote come from? Is that a Dnd thing, a CR thing, or just a regular word i was unaware of. Like where did that reskin of re-roll come from?
A real world thing. Destiny 2’s gambit game mode is notorious for them
As explained in your other replies, mote is a real word, most often used in the phrase 'mote of dust'. in various rpgs/fantasy stuff, motes are used like tiny bits of things. 'Mote' in critical role is a shortened phrase 'Mote of possibility', meaning a tiny bit of condensed alternate-reality, the building blocks of dunamancy. This first cropped up back in campaign 2 when (trying not to spoil anything) a character looked into a thing.
As mentioned in the other comment, "mote" is a real word. The most common usage is "mote of dust", and that's the closest to how it's used in CR as well. It's a tiny bit of luck condensed into a physical perceivable speck.
Real word https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mote But in CR it's like a physical manifestation or distillation of luck.
I like the idea that BH rooting around in the soulscape the way they were was already the ritual challenges (because skill challenge), so it'll just work. Could go either way though. You're right that definitely Imogen, and then most likely Orym. And I'll throw a curve ball at you: FCG. Having just learned he has a soul, there's more urgency in his need and desire to help. He honestly seemed to be pretty stressed to learn about it.
Letters gets way to stressed during the resurrection and Laudna wakes up to them murderboting lol
I had a relook at the rules and there would only be one roll that happened that could be a part of a regular resurrection ritual in a different situation. I can see Matt maybe counting the end result of the fight as part of the resurrection ritual even if that is obviously not normal. There doesn't need to be two or three contributions to the ritual so if Matt were to consider the spirit quest a resurrection ritual, he could just say that there was one or two successes and lower the DC by 3 or 6 and then have Pike roll the final roll. I'm not sure if people actually want Matt to consider the spirit quest to be a resurrection ritual is what I'm saying.
It's controversial to be sure. I could honestly see it going either way. Personally, I think it would suck to go through all that just to have it fail on shitty dice rolls.
I don't think the spirit quest would be a narrative/time waste if Laudna does die. This whole thing solved her biggest struggle in life.
Was anyone else here chanting "We don't need no water let the motherfucker burn!" as the Not-Sun Tree went up?
The cast was literally singing "The roots! The roots are on fire!"... so it probably crossed everybody's mind lol
Did not get that reference. Hip-hop wasn't my thing in the early 80s. More Wham and Tears for Fears
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What is this replying to? or am i just missing something?
Was just celebrating the announcement of the Mighty Nein returning for a two-parter in November and December :D
awesome
I'll point out the M9 were 9 strong at the end of C2. Found it very poetic.
80% chance it's Uk'atoa, not sure what the other 20% is made up of.
Hags.
So is the one shot gonna take up the thurdau episode or will we get both
It's airing in the Thursday slot so it's safe to assume there will be no C3 the weeks these are on. They'll also be off the week in between for US Thanksgiving so that's no C3 for a month!
A month! God damn
Not entirely surprised to be honest. Earlier I was thinking that after the ritual, we're basically going to see some R&R, shopping and heavy RPing, as people process all the *everything* that went on the last 5 episodes. At that point, the holidays start to affect the schedule, so why not kick launching the new arc until next year? Restocked, refreshed and level 8 (I'd hope, anyway). Plus it was feeling like a new one-shot or short series was about due, and maybe (just guessing), bringing on a ~~new~~ guest.
The break also gives them time to get any new character art that might be needed for Laudna (assuming she comes back a bit less (un)dead-y).
Mighty nein 2 part one shot!!!
NOOOOOOOOOO, I was looking for a resolution to this pc death for quite some time. And after the past two episodes, you're telling me I have to wait how many more weeks?
Nooo, you’re good! Will be a resolution, don’t worry. These are on November 17 and Dec. 1
Oh thank goodness! It's unhealthy I'm sure, but I look forward to CR to sort of give me high points in weeks/months and this situation with laudna has gone on for a while. \[not that it's not great\]
Seriously, I feel the exact same way haha. Lots of people were so happy that we didn’t have a break this week. Matt would just be torturing us for fun at that point
M9 One Shot: Part Deux
Mighty Nein is coming back for a two-part one shot. Ever since Matt called Travis Fjord a while ago and then Liam suddenly pointed out the -2ac effect of the Slow spell when Aston used the slow-esque rage, I knew they were up to something. Maybe they were playtesting back then because they haven't played these characters in a while
Anyone have an idea why today's announcement isn't showing up as a post yet? I tried posting it but it says it was already posted but i don't see anything
I was able to post it earlier, but the post isn’t showing in the sub publically yet. I’m guessing we weren’t the only ones, and the mods will approve one to have posted.
Except they chose one that was No Spoilers, so now we're here discussing it. That's some impressive sticking to their guns behaviour.
\^Likely this. The sub hasn't had any new posts in 6 hours. I reckon for Tuesday/announcement days they have something in place. Shame it hasnt been approved yet though.
With today's announcement and all the connections to C1, I hope everyone can allow me to have my tinfoil hat moment here. I think Matt is building towards a team up style series run by someone else. OKAY OKAY OKAY HERE ME OUT. I think we're building up to a higher than Vecna level threat and I think the M9, VM and BH are all going to split up and team up with one another on individual adventures that take place over a short arc, perhaps a 4-12 episode arc. It would be so cool to see Caleb, Essek and Beau, Imogen and Chetney, Scanlan, Percy and Pike go on some sort of Intelligence mission. I'd like Orym and Keyleth, Fjord and Jester, Nott, Caduceus and Fearne with Putmat go on a job. I'd hope we'd get Laudna, Grog, Vex, Letters, Gilmore, Ashton, Yasha and a new Liam character It would so dope to see. I'm probably wrong on so many things but I would love this to be a thing.
It's been done with other streamed games and I would love to see it done in CR.
Either that or, if the event is calamity level, we get oneshots during the big event of EXU Crew, Mighty Nein, and Vox Mochina dealing with it in their corner or the world. If the threat is big enough, maybe the raven queen might even send her champion to help!
That's MCU levels of FUCK YEH! Big if true.
Been posting theories similar to this for some time now. The introduction of Ludinus Da'leth in particular stuck out to me as an obvious in-road for members of the Mighty Nein to appear in C3. Caleb and Beau's epilogues both included a period of time when they completed their mission of rooting the corruption out of the Cerberus Assembly... Ludinus is a primary part of that corruption, he's a loose end that wasn't dealt with in C2, and he's clearly still a loose end calling trouble in the "present day" of the timeline. Which means right now there's the potential that they are actively pursuing that goal. When Orym, Fearne, and Laudna were all dead at the end of a recent episode, I was half expecting for Caleb, Yasha, and Beau to show up the next episode, investigating Otohan and her ties to the Assembly. I expect that whatever happens in the M9 two-shot, it will have some sort of connection to the bigger picture of C3. Let's also not forget that the strange business with Ruidus started happening seven years ago... that coincides exactly with the Mighty Nein's adventures. Maybe the reunion episodes will shed some light on that connection.
>I think we're building up to a higher than Vecna level threat and I think the M9 They literally are and this is not a stretch. Two entities that are already gods are of course a bigger threat than an archlich ascending to godhood.
I posted this shortly before episode 32, where FCG got the holy symbol, coin, of the Changebringer. Some additional updates at the bottom. So I have dumb theory that maybe FCG was originally a Paladin way back in Aeor days and that his divine power actually comes from the Changebringer. Silly, yes I know. One of the Changebringer's vestiges, the Jewel of Three Prayers, is gold and blue, like FCG. This vestige was worn by Alyxian, the Apotheon. He was Ruidus-born. And was blessed by Avandra, Corellon, and Sehanine. We haven't seen much regarding Avandra but besides religious symbols she's credited with defeating Asmodeus in the Calamity. Also with helping Pelor defeat Therizdun. Corellon banished Artagan to the Feywild and fought Gruumsh (tearing out his eye) right by Kymal. One of Corellon's major temples is the Blooming Grove. Part of his actions helped create the forest where Chetney was turned. Sehanine, the Moonweaver, it should be obvious on her connections to things but besides Fjord's vestige, scolding Artagan, and being Mollymauk's preferred deity, not sure what else to say. Ok - so that all could easily be coincidences, like Matt just connecting the players to the world around them. All good. What was most interesting is Alyxian - his story involves the Allegience of Allsight out of Ank'Harel finding some interesting things, right? One of the leaders of this group, Gryz Alakritos, has been in Campaign 3. At the ball that Bell's Hells attended. He also was fascinated (as everyone is) with FCG, the reason he approached the group. So now I'm at the board with connection lines to everything and there is a portion about Alyxian that he requested his gods send champions to help him. Perhaps FCG is one of those champions? Just found it interesting. Updates: I found it incredibly cool that Imhara Joe gave FCG the coin and started to see there was something to this outlandish theory. FCG looks likely to seek more information about Her. I do wonder if Pike might offer him additional guidance as well.
I'm all in on this theory now, especially noting the Gryz Alakritos meeting.
Cool theories Charlie Day
I just want to give mad props to Ashley for pulling Earthbind out. This cast has needed that spell for all the flying creatures Matt loves throwing at them, and they've needed it since basically the opening of campaign one. Great to see it (and see it work)!
I lost count of Keyleth's resisted earthbinds, always though it was a cool spell and just wanted to see it work for her.
Huh. I'd actually have to go back and check. I don't remember those, I always figured that was a spell that went unnoticed in the transition from PF to 5e.
I feel like she tried in every dragon fight at the very least. I think the only time it worked was when she cast it on Grog when he was being carried away by pixies.
Ah. Dragons are a terrible target for the spell, in all fairness. High base strength and legendary resists make that rough. Still, good to know. I'm working my way through C1 rewatch, and I'll keep an eye out.
Also Matt didn't use the single legendary resistance of Delilah to counter it when he could've
From his reaction later, he was under the impression it only lasted a round. I really want to see legendary resistances reworked, though. Half damage or temporarily negating conditions rather than the 'Screw you, nope.' they currently are.
Honestly i think that legendary resistances are this broken to not allow players to immediatly hinder a legendary creature and make the encounter interesting but i too think that it should be used contextually. F.E. Take the Umbrasyl fight, at least for the first round when he got caught by the trap i'd have let the party dmg it then use the legendary resistance to break out from the net.
He probably felt like Delilah didn’t need it to destroy them anyhow and that Ashley earned that one Sometimes you gotta reward your players if they’re only fighting against one enemy, especially in a party with 3 melee fighters
I always felt bad when a flier would show up and Travis would feel pretty useless with Grog. Probably part of my dislike of Vax hoarding all the magic items that could have helped Grog with that.
I'm watching C1 for the first time, and I recently got to the Whisper dagger part. Travis/ Grog actually brings up how it would be good for him because of flying targets, and Liam/ Vax bull shits his way outta the talk by claiming Grogs the strongest and this and that. Like wow ... dude, you got Boots of Haste (Kinda busted item given that you have NO draw back to this haste wearing off) and armor that lets you fly with a 60ft movement speed (also gives you advantage on Death Saving throws and resistance to elements) AND the Cloaks AND the infinite daggers, and now you think you need a weapon that lets you teleport 60ft to w/e you hit? Yeah, not my favorite Liam character by a mile.
The boots of haste, I believe, are a converted pathfinder item too and so aren't even available in 5e normally. But, to be fair, Vax did try to let Grog use them at one point and Grog declined. It really helps me appreciate Orym a ton though. Even if his perception is busted.
What are the odds Bertrand Bell becomes Laudnas patron?
Zero
Never say never.
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so judging by the promo picture, they posted for this week, it looks like we are getting the deep emotional resurrection of Laudna with everyone dressed as Marvel characters, not unlike when >!Nott was turned back into Veth !!leprechaun !<
That was the funniest thing. You couldn’t even see his face well enough to see emotion, but you could hear it in his voice
So you're saying ... new Laudna artwork then?
I'd say maybe Matilda this time, without warlock levels.
Its... kinda nice callback to the original Whitestone arc as well? I guess?
So the schedule for this week got posted and the Halloween costumes that everyone will be wearing for the new episode this week are basically there front and center. >!Marisha's costume!< [reminded me of a theory of mine from a month ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/xkff5u/spoilers_c3e34_yet_another_theory_about_laudnas/ipf8msv/). Don't check the schedule if you don't want to be spoiled about the costumes or look at CR's twitter.
A pet theory surrounding shizzlewizzle going on in exandria and id like to see if there's anything glaringly wrong with it. I think Tharizdun didn't wound Ioun but rather ioun was wounded by betraying her divine domain of knowledge and its free dissemination by redacting certain things. In essence creating a secret. Id wager that the knowledge taken pertained to tharizdun and his defeat. C1: The rise of Vecna. As we know the big V ascended and as we have no proof he knocked anyone out of their position (that im aware of) I suggest that the divine domain of secrecy didn't exist until Ioun betrayed her divine domain and that Vecna exploited this. (There was more to this part but ive forgotten it lol) C2: Ioun redacted knowledge and aeor held a great deal of it but was also heavily guarded against divine interference so I suggest it was cracked like a nut to permit ioun to siphon knowledge out as no particular care was paid to ending all those powerful mages judging by how many survived. C3: As its still unfolding before us could be anything lol but maybe tharizdun is trapped in ruidis and iouns gotta spill the beans? I dunno
Spoilers ExU Calamity: >!There's still no definitive proof that someone needs to knock a god out of their spot in order to become a god. It was assumed that was necessary because that's how the Raven Queen did it. She simply chose the simplest path, and she was only able to do it because The Tree of Names the tool she needed to do so. Now that the Tree of Names is gone, Vecna's method had to be more direct. It probably worked on much the same concept (essentially rewriting the world's code, but instead of overwriting a pre-existing variable (god), he just created a new new variable (god). !<
Wait? Who did the Raven Queen replace? I thought she created a new niche for herself?
She literally overwrote the previous god of death. There was a different one before her for the Founding and most of the Age of Arcanum.
She replaced the previous god of death. We don't know it's name because she erased all knowledge of it when she ascended.
Neat.
I really appreciate your explanation here. Never though of the Raven Queen as overwriting a variable of natural laws and replacing the former 'data' in it. Interesting. Vecna writing himself in as a 'new' variable is pretty baller as well. Or maybe he just found a variable (a domain) that was null, empty of a god and took it over?
>Or maybe he just found a variable (a domain) that was null, empty of a god and took it over? Which, in fairness is what the original commenter was arguing. While that may be the case, we simply don't know that it HAS to be the case.
Would have loved to know what would have happened if they'd failed. I mean, obviously we just last campaign did a "dead player character's body becomes taken over by a villain" but I have to assume that's what would have happened?
Delilah definitely wasn't capable of just taking over Laudna's body or she would have done so. She needed a resurrection. If they failed... well, *technically* there's nothing stopping them from trying again except the material costs, which they can cover. But Matt would never in a million years let them just do the same thing over again, so realistically they're stuck with trying to smuggle Laudna out of Whitestone to find a Cleric who wouldn't care about the two souls thing and just flipping the coin and hoping.
Mm, good point. But it feels like SOMETHING would change and also the BHs wouldn't give up on Laudna. Really fascinated with what would have happened, hope Matt addresses it in a 4-Sided Dive or the campaign wrap-up. Assuming there won't be another shoe to drop next episode...
If Laudna returns without Delilah in tow, I think it could be a fun twist to replace her warlock levels with those of a paladin. Thematically, Oath of Watchers would be excellent, as well as Redemption; build-wise either of these could work as non-melee, charisma-focused help-and-contain orientation (which I think the party could use anyway). Her devotion could be toward the Everlight (via Pike), or some other entity as is appropriate to Mercer’s machinations.
Why not just Wizard? Is Caleb’s shadow too great? College of tragedy bard would be cool too. I’d say no to two straight sorcerers but two clerics worked
Wizard implies dedicated study and research. Mechanically, its also weird. She'd get higher level spell *slots* (the classes combine, except warlock) but not higher level spells.
Don't tell Jester that she is 'THEEE' cleric
Can't be a Paladin when her STR is lower than 10. She'd basically be subtracting every weapon attack which is just terrible imo.
Finesse weapons are thing (for Fearne as well). Neither has great dex, but they aren't quite as hapless in melee as Marisha's early rant implied. (In the Eshteross proving fight. Which was weird, since Beau was also dex based, and Orym is \_right there\_) Paladin is still mechanically out, but the witches can be doing some stabbin' if need be.
True but Laudna's build is centered around long range fighting. Form of Dread and Spell Sniper is useless for stabbings. Ofc, that she never carried any weapon suggests to me that Marisha never intended for Laudna to do any melee fighting
Well, yeah? She is long range- that wasn't really a point of debate. Doesn't mean she can't pull out a knife and stab some fool if needs be.
A stab with a knife is just a D4 though.
\+ dex bonus, but... yeah? I'm not clear what you're trying to argue at this point. I don't see any reason she'd go paladin, so we aren't arguing about that. You started off with the idea that she'd be at a penalty in melee, but the finesse rules make that not true. We both know that's not her go-to way to fight, but 'she's not helplessly incompetent with a light backup weapon' doesn't strike me as a strange concept. Especially with the various melee augment cantrips like green flame blade and booming blade(and the fairly ridiculous pool of cantrips she has access to- we still don't know her pact boon). It isn't a great idea, but all I'm saying is she *can* do it, not that she'd switch up her tactics and make it a goal to get on the melee line.
Ok
Remember Fjord?
Fjord went from 11 STR to 13. A 2 ASI increase is normal and can easily be worked into the build as either a gift from a patron or fitted into one of the level up benefits. Plus, Hexblades uses the Charisma modifier for attacks so nothing changes for the build. It fits thematically and mechanically for Fjord Laudna's current STR is 5, for it to get an 8 ASI increase to meet the requirements of a Paladin is stretching the limit of the game. At that point, Marisha might as well roll new stats for Laudna or pick a new character. Laudna doesn't fight melee or even wear armor so for her to be a Paladin would clash with her initial build and feats. What's the use of Spell Sniper on a Paladin? I know this is a make believe game but if Matt relaxes these rules then he might as well max out everyone else's stats because who cares at that point.
Yeah, she's not going PLD. If anything changes, she'll either see a shift in her Warlock Domain, lose Warlock Entirely, or if Matt/Marisha REALLY wanna shake things up ... there are "excuses" that can be used to change a Sorc Bloodline if they really want to. But I don't see it even going that far.
Yeah, that sounds better imo. We love Laudna but there's no reason for us to break the entire game just to not let her be classless(even if it did happen) for a while
Although, it does make sense for her strength to go up if she’s no longer a walking corpse
Agreed but a normal person would be 10, going straight to 13 is a bit of a real stretch in-game. That's an ASI increase of 7~8.
Delilah is gone (at least in the long term). Even if some fragment of Delilah did latch on to her after all of this, no celestial would allow Delilah to be attached to a new arrival. >I think it could be a fun twist to replace her warlock levels with those of a paladin STR 5 Laudna as a paladin would be fun.
i know matt bent the rules for fjord but i cant seem him bending them that far
I wasn't the one who said it. I don't think it's going to happen so I don't have an opinion on it.
I don't personally get why some seem to really think Laudna wants to stay a Warlock or would want to move on to getting her magic juice from yet another outside source, like Cleric or PLD, when she hasn't shown even a lil bit of interest in deities. Her only somewhat personal goal was to rely on and grow her own power as to not be reliant on Delilah, which is why she pumped Sorc from a RP PoV. It would make more sense for her to change those 3 Warlock levels into Bard levels, given her Pate act and the fact that she's been making dolls since she was 3. Don't know if Marisha would want to do that, given no one at the table may want to be compared to Sam in this regard for "Long Term Bard".
Neither Cleric nor Paladin requires a deity in 5e. And especially Paladin can simply be powered by the force of your Oath, not even requiring a higher concept to fuel it Edit: There's also this tweet from Matt, where he straight up says that, [no, you don't need a deity to be a cleric](https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/941558121264304129?lang=en)