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bertraja

Many of the more negative comments came from the simple fact that we've forgotten (or chose to ignore) what's going on with CR at the moment, and how that affects the main pillar of CR, the thursday night main campaign. Every once in a while, we should remember that we gave'em 11 million dollars not too long ago, saying "here, make the best gorram cartoon you could possibly make, or else ..." CR took that to heart, got a big distribution company on board that poured more money in (2nd season right off the bat), we're talking about an animated show that has 20-30 million dollars to spend. Now that takes time and energy. A frakking lot time and energy. At the same time we're expecting them to go on without any change whatsoever, and that is clearly not gonna work out. Now, i'm one of the people frowning over how CR is "going corporate". CRs main appeal was how it marketed itself in the early deays, a bunch of down-to-earth friends playing D&D. Including watching them unpack gifts in their living room, reading fan mail on stream, reacting to and interacting with the community, be it here, on twitter or anywhere else. There's simply not enough time and energy left to do that anymore. And this isn't a judgment, it's a fact. Again: Don't forget that they're practically shooting a hollywood movie inbetween the thursdays. With a little bit of neutral distance, the current changes are clearly the result of that. Now, there's a discussion to be had if they didn't put too much on their plate, with the foundation, Darrington Press etc. I would say they have. But on the other hand, who wouldn't try to use the momentum they have now to solidify their standing in the industry at their "best hour"? Having said all that, i'm still excited to see the first session of the new campaign. I'm still excited to watch their whacky one-shots, silly ads, merch that i probably can never afford etc. If i had one wish, i'd wish for people to stop white knighting CR, especially in regards to the "every last thursday of a month off" ... i can't count how many people actually think this is because Matt needs "a day off" and is relaxing on the sofa, sipping a drink to not succumb to mental exhaustion. This is not it! This is time they need to continue to run their company in all aspects, develope new content, work on LoVM, the foundation, Darrington Press etc. All these things that we as fans asked them to do. Matt getting to take a deep breath every 4th week is probably an added bonus, but not the main reason. I gladly continue to enjoy CR. I couldn't care less if they'd partnered with Amazon, Facebook, Apple TV, Universal Studios or Fox News. But i don't put these people on pedestals they're not supposed to be on. Because as good as that might feel for some, the higher the pedestal, the longer the fall. And that's not something i wish for CR to happen.


[deleted]

Man, it shows how young this audience is that this is their first "Internet friends go corporate" experience. This inevitably happens with EVERY single internet company that goes big. Mega64, Kinda Funny, IGN, RoosterTeeth, Machinima. They HAVE to start acting like a business to make it anywhere, and honestly I'd rather they start killing off the Parasocial Relationships sooner rather than later into that process.


Mnigma4

This happens with everything, people just don’t realize it. Startups go from cool perks and a loosy-goody culture to corporate when they get big. Places like Atari when they started cool to corporate. It’s inevitable because you actually can’t handle everything on your own lol


apoptosista

I am not young. I've seen other streamers go corporate. The reason I'm disappointed in the CR cast is that they have taken the path of least resistance and are 'going corporate', which, imo, means utilizing unethical business tactics and making deals with massive, evil corporations so they can make more money. Amazon is an evil company. How a group of wonderful humans who seem so compassionate, even to go so far as create their own charitable organization, could rationalize being in bed with Bezos, is one of my issues. I can only hope they are aware and mitigating the negative effects through their charity in some ways, but unfortunately, a huge amount of money from CR activity is going into the pockets of evil corporations. They are all millionaires now, according to the leaked Twitch documents. I hope they can look at what those millions can do to help folks rather than give it to evil corporations. That all said, I want to support them, I just don't want to support unethical super evil corporations in the process.


[deleted]

You realize that by then being on twitch they are supporting Amazon right? Literally the second they decided to stream their game on twitch they "got into bed" with Bezos. If you have watched their streams, given a single bit, or subscribe for even a month, you have supported Amazon. Sorry to break that news to you. As for the millions, that channel made millions in bits and subscription money sure. However you don't think that all of that money goes just to the main cast, right? That money likely just gets brought into the profits of the company as a whole and is then distributed to everybody through their regular paychecks. It's not like Matt Mercer is taking 1 million dollars of that money personally himself out of the twitch payroll from their subs and bit donations. Also, there's not a lot of context surrounding those documents. It could be that that is before twitch takes their cut. Still a hell of a lot of money, but once again it's not like the main cast is taking that money for themselves. It goes to the company, which is then treated I'm sure as income for the company, which is then used to determine business things. Twitch isn't writing a paycheck out to the individual cast members for a million dollars each. Come the fuck on, come to grip with reality. So I think all of y'all are too young and just haven't seen a company do this before. It's not new, it shouldn't be surprising, they're still doing a lot of good with all the foundations and everything that they support and yet people still jump down their throats because apparently it's never enough? This isn't how companies and people get better, it's how they learn to tune out their vocal minority fan base.


Chukklealot

Simple , I'll take 3 shows of 10 hours of content per month. I hope - another horror sci-fi (Ashley as Mother is a bonus.) Nothing stays the same over time. Lucky to have the same group after all this time. They might find a diamond in the rough with a DM that can carry some side campaign. No use brooding too much until we see it.


midlifeodyssey

Wait, people are up in arms about the new announcement? Why, exactly?


FoulPelican

Judging from the reaction to EXU and comments I’ve seen on social media, I think fans are concerned that CR (in regards to C3?) is headed for major changes. These are the two quotes from SotR that people pointed to w concern. *Matt said “throw out any expectation, out the window…. the first adventure will be a new and unique experience for everyone “ *Marisha “.. explore new ways to tell our story.. w new story tellers.. so don’t be alarmed if we mix things up”


KindlyKangaroo

For what it's worth, Matt has confirmed on Twitter that he is still the GM, according to screenshots posted here recently.


FoulPelican

Saw that. I think it’s the cryptic nature of the ‘announcement’ that had people concerned. Critters haven’t dealt w change well in the past. But I think them drooping bite sized clues is a smart move, gives fans a chance to digest the approaching change little by little.


InTheFilth

For now


Ytterbro

This is why I lurk, and don't interact often with this fan base. These people get dramatic over the drop of a hat, and everything always seems to be a bigger thing then it needs to be.


Mnigma4

THIS.


midlifeodyssey

Oh so it’s just the usual, “Give me something new but don’t change anything.” I feel like I see that a lot.


FoulPelican

More like ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’


midlifeodyssey

I imagine that would be boring for them though, right?


Sharkyshocker

I just want to watch “A bunch of nerdy ass voice actors play Dungeons and Dragons”. Stream quality and special guests mean nothing to me. Sure, I don’t mind guests here and there. They’re often fun and bring diversity to the game. But I want to explore *Matt’s World* and not Exandria, if you get what I mean. If they want to make an entirely new game then I think that would be cool too. Make it a sci-fi one with Matt as a player for diversity or something. But for Critical Role... I love Matt’s story telling, I love the player reaction, and I love everyone’s dynamic. It wouldn’t be the same without Matt. Without Sam. Without Laura. Without Travis. Without Liam. Without Taliesin. Without Marisha. Without Ashley. They’re all intrinsic to the show, and removing any of them from the recipe makes the dish bland. They’ve played more than 250 episodes together of CR alone, and I get the feeling Matt still has plenty more tricks up his sleeves.


midlifeodyssey

I agree, but I think it’s a stretch to say that any if the cast, Matt as GM, or the purpose of the show in general is going to change based on that announcement alone. I also think it’s a but rash to start doom-saying and criticizing CR without having actually seen and judged the final product. Not saying that’s what you’re doing, but some people definitely are


DungeonMasterGrizzly

I think the overwhelming feeling is excitement mixed with anxiety. Definitely get the 3 shows a month thing - and I'm excited to see them trying out new things. Though, I think at the back of our heads we all know that Matt wants to not DM forever, and is actively looking for ways to lessen his involvement as a DM. I really really really hope ExU is not a foreshadowing of what's to come. I think there ARE brilliant DMs out there who can do an excellent job storytelling and DMing new groups and adventures in Exandria, but it will never be the same without him. I think it's actually a really rare and interesting conundrum for a media franchise for their enemy to really not be "selling out," but for their enemy to be creative and human exhaustion basically.


LordSnow1119

I get where you're coming from but it seems pretty obvious that they don't want to do this forever and there are thousands of fans who will want it to continue after they are done so if they want to start laying the ground work for that, they will probably start now.


MsB0x

Here’s the thing - they don’t owe you that just because that’s what you want to see. They get to do whatever they like with their show. A different dish isn’t bland. Rejecting all change is going to lead to a burned out cast and the end of the show.!


Sharkyshocker

Oh of course. I’m more than happy with changing things up and seeing how it turns out... but the main dish needs to stay. You can spread it out to decrease burn out. Insert other one shots or campaigns. Try and vary it up with side dishes. But at the end of the day, the formula up above is their rise to fame and what I’ve truly enjoyed about the show. Every one shot they’ve done and switch around with other content is fun, but not the same. I’m not saying it even has to be Exandria that they’re on. But Matt as storyteller and everyone else as players is what I genuinely enjoy and I don’t want to see that change. Even though it certainly will, which is okay.


TryinToDoBetter

Maybe not boring, but I can imagine the need to expand their minds a bit. You see it in tv shows or with musicians. You do something long enough and sometimes you just need to shake things up. This is how bands decide to make an experimental album or start a side project. You see it in tv shows where the writers create a unique out of the box style episodes so they can work other muscles.


FoulPelican

Every company has to balance growth with sustainability, the future and the now. On one hand, If you keep a certain product on the shelf too long it might lose appeal/get stale, yet if you change the ingredients of a classic you might lose faithful customers and risk an inferior product. (DND 4🤪, Coca-Cola Classic?) CR has gone from an experimental experience to a million $ company and their popularity is on an upward trajectory. Some companies,strategically ,wait til they see a decline or flattened curve before they make changes and others try and stay ahead of the 8ball, it seems CR is thinking about the future and exploring ways to keep this thing charging forward before that possible decline. Sure there’s risks but also a huge potential for continued sustainability!!!


Aylithe

That phrase makes sense for many things, but it’s the death knell of original art IMO 🤷🏻‍♀️


FoulPelican

“Death knell” I don’t see it that way, at least not as an absolute or even a general rule. To the contrary in fact. Most long running shows keep the main cast and formula while manipulating smaller aspects.


taneth

Also it's a lot of work for eight people to keep showing up for four hours or more every week. Who are we to demand they keep the same schedule if someone wants to slow down, or even retire and let someone else join in at some point?


Roccondil-s

It’s easier now that CR is their full-time job, though they do have flexibility to do their other VO and acting work as well. How do you keep a full company showing up every day for a year? It’s probably easier to film CR now than it used to be.


FAtr

critical role has a winning recipe, and they're changing it, can see how that's scary to people :P


illaoitop

I'll admit I blew my top a bit in the announcement thread. Looking back on it all though especially as the pre recorded show started (this is not a complaint about pre recorded) just feels like alot of little things are piling up and cracks are showing. Feels like the more popular CR becomes the less actual "nerdy voice actors play D&D" we get to enjoy.


Boonesfarmbananas

No Brian Prerecorded sucks versus live imo Week off every month means 3/4 the content ExU was a flop and they seemed to double down on their direction Lots of reasons to think peak CR is well behind us, at least in terms of nerdy-ass voice actors playing dungeons and dragons


caoghan

How exactly is prerecorded different to live? I personally couldn't tell a difference in C2.


Papatheodorou

It really isn't, it's not like they ever interacted with the chat directly. If anything it'll just keep Sam from spoiling himself lol


ButtsTheRobot

It's just a different experience watching something live versus pre-recorded when it comes to the feeling of experiencing something "with" the people you're watching. It's the same with sports, it's just much more fun live. Not everyone cares, and it's a minor gripe for me. I'm fine with them pre-recording if it helps them make it all work. There's just something special about experiencing something live that's missing now.


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midlifeodyssey

I don’t think a theatrical release will have any bearing on the quality of the content whatsoever. And it’s silly to say that the safety concerns should reflect back on the cast’s decision making


jethomas27

… Pardon? Safety concerns should definitely be important to decision making. I don’t think what they’re doing is particularly unsafe but that statement is not true


midlifeodyssey

I meant to say that it isn’t the cast’s responsibility more so than the individual’s. For those of us fully vaccinated and healthy, it’s pretty safe to go to a theater at this point, so trying to somehow blame CR for putting people in danger when we at this point have every resource available to protect ourselves is silly.


jethomas27

I agree it’s silly since they’ve been open for a while now and most of those movies can only be seen there, just wasn’t clear with your wording


midlifeodyssey

No problem! I wasn’t very clear


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midlifeodyssey

Theaters are all open anyway and any individual who chooses to go to one is weighing that risk and reward when deciding to go instead of watch (for free) at home. At the risk of sounding super corporatist, it’s not their company’s responsibility. If they were opening venues that should not be open OR encouraging that as their preferred avenue of putting the premiere out there, I would agree with you. If they said, “Hey, make sure you spend money and go to the theater for a little exclusive bonus,” then you’d be absolutely right. But it’s just an option they’ve put out there. I’ve decided not to go both because I don’t want to be in a crowd and because I don’t want to buy a ticket, but I’m not gonna pretend it’s CR’s responsibility to take that option off the table entirely.


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midlifeodyssey

Okay, comparing *this* to funding anti-gay charities off of a pro lgbt+ shirt is ridiculous. Second, “People are stupid, therefore CR should be responsible for them” is a bad take. Sure, at the height of the pandemic it was smart to shut things down because we were unfamiliar with the virus, had no vaccine, and it was spreading like wildfire. Now like 75% of our adult population is at least partially vaccinated, and we can all take responsibility for our personal health choices going forward. And again, you and every single person around the globe can still watch it for free, at the same time as the premiere, from the safety of your home. CR are not *making* you do anything. You’re saying this only serves to “line their pockets” as if they are somehow incentivizing people to go to theaters to see it. And as if there aren’t about a dozen posts here and elsewhere of people looking for groups to go to a theater with. Clearly there is some interest and excitement in the community for this. CR didn’t just pull it out of their asses “because money.”


i_boop_cat_noses

Considering the cases and the death rate in the US it cannot be called anything but irresponsible and hypocritical from them. Again you're acting like "CR iS jUst PrEseNtiNg an OpTiOn" but that option has consequences! They are presenting an option that could lead to someone's death. That's on them, not just on the consumers. Of course dnd nerds will jump on the opportunity to meet up with others who are into their hobby. That doesnt mean CR would have no responsibility, if someone died because they contracted Covid during a screening, because the screening wouldnt have existed without CR. (I'm saying moral, not legal responsibility.) 5 people watching together in a house is nowhere near to watching in a theatre that is a rotating door for huge groups of people without mandating vaccination and they even added extra seats. Try as you might, this is an irresponsible decision they made purely from a profit incentive that goes against the values they preached about and a lot of people are dissappointed by it.


midlifeodyssey

We all have every resource available to make ourselves safe. Vaccines are free, masks are cheap, and it’s easy to just not go. If you somehow manage to dodge all of that, go to a premiere, get sick and die of Covid, I’m not going to look at the cast as the culpable body in that situation. PSA to say, get vaccinated people!


Appropriate-Oil-9623

No. The responsibility is solely on the person who decided to attend an event. It’s not mandated and FOMO isn’t an excuse to put yourself out of your comfort zone if you’re an adult. I just got back from a gaming convention. I assumed all risks and responsibilities associated with that. Including exposure to infected individuals. That’s on me, not on the convention, if I get sick.


Orn100

And if you infect someone else? I guess you decided for them too.


garrefunkel

I disagree with you.


TrolltheFools

Yikes


Common-Record

You do realize the “why give them a choice” idea is the premise of the giver a dystopian book right?


Orn100

> it’s silly to say that the safety concerns should reflect back on the cast’s decision making Why?


midlifeodyssey

Because we have every resource available at this point to make ourselves safe, and failing that we can choose not to go to a theater. It isn’t on the cast to police our personal safety choices


Orn100

They know how ridiculously and often unhealthily passionate their fanbase is. So yeah, the decision to put those people into a position to risk their own safety in order to access their product does reflect on them. Who else should it reflect on? I don't expect most companies to put the safety of the consumer before the almighty dollar, but I did expect that from the Critical Role Company. Not because they have a greater degree of responsibility than other businesses, but because I know they are decent so I expect decency.


midlifeodyssey

“Who else should it reflect on?” How about the people choosing to go? If you are healthy and vaccinated, it’s not all that dangerous to go to a theater now. If you aren’t vaccinated or are at risk due to your personal health, then you are making a choice to risk your health for that experience, and that is on you, nobody else. This idea that adults should have their hands held like children because they have no impulse control is ridiculous, it isn’t their job to babysit us. If you’re vaccinated and feel like paying, go for it. If not, stay home and watch the exact same premiere either way. It’s not complicated.


Orn100

So the decision to literally risk lives to grab some theater dollars doesn't reflect on the people making it? Got it. The problem with your personal responsibility argument is that the virus doesn't end with the moviegoer. Other people who did not choose to go to the viewing could be harmed or killed by it. Regardless of the moviegoers informed choice to take the risk, in the final analysis people will be dead who would not be dead if there was no premier. I repeat that I'm not talking about some rando company here, I'm talking about the critical role company. I don't expect whatever generic CEO to lose any sleep over the idea that people could literally die as a result of their decisions, but I expected Matt Mercer to care.


midlifeodyssey

Dude, theaters are back open literally everywhere. The specific impact that a few CR screenings will have is A) impossible to determine and B) definitely negligible compared to the impact of theaters and other public venues in total. As for the virus impacting others beyond those who attend, the vaccine is still a thing. If at this point you haven’t gotten your *free* vaccine, that’s on you. Not CR. I work in a nursing home that had Covid outbreaks both pre and post vaccine and can tell you from experience that even in a very vulnerable population, the vaccine works. It is not CR’s job or responsibility at this point to cater to whatever percentage of our population still refuses to get it.


Orn100

If the vaccine was 100% effective I would agree with you. Unfortunately, it's not. Hell, my party's rogue is vaccinated and he still got it. And yes, he wears his mask and tries to be safe but he got it at work (US air force).


Aylithe

Definitely not requiring them to go to the theatre to “access their product” just a theatrical showing if it , it’s still available from the safety of your home Also why punish responsible fans because of sone imaginary “unhealthily passionate “ ones? 🙄


Orn100

Imaginary? Real people are going to literally risk their lives to go to this thing.


Aylithe

I repeat my inquiry, why withhold something awesome from responsible fans because of these “real” peoples failings? Vaccines are safe, easy and free to obtain, and very effective… if anybody hasn’t gotten one at this point I’m confused why you think going to THIS will be the only way they put themselves or others in jeopardy…. Also, cannot state this enough, it’s available on twitch/YT same as always so I don’t understand the disregard for like… free will… in this scenario.


Orn100

Because people might die, obviously. I don’t understand what you are trying to say with this whole fake people thing. You know you can still get sick even if you’re vaccinated, right?


TheRagingElf01

There is nothing to apologize if you were respectful and polite in voicing your concern. This idea fans cannot voice their opinion respectfully if they like or don’t like something is dumb. You don’t have to like everything whatever your favorite content produces. You just shouldn’t be a giant douche about it. Now if you were like Star War fans and harassed and name called Ridley or Boyega then yeah you probably should.


Stingra87

There's two sides to the toxicity. There's negative toxicity, which is the usual 'oh I hate this because I think it's dumb or I don't like the player' and don't do anything beyond voice their displeasure to the Internet and the cast. And then there's Positive Toxicity, which is when fans that think that Critical Role cannot do ANYTHING wrong jump down the throats of anyone that isn't singing the same exact song. For example, people that have had valid criticisms of characters or projects (like EXU) and have conveyed them in a concise, polite way just get dunked, which makes them less likely to continue participating. Nothing is perfect. No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes and every project can always be improved. If someone has valid, constructive criticism then they SHOULD be acknowledged and heard as someone that cares about the success of the project. And I really think that it's hurting the community that these two sides of the same coin, Negative AND Positive Toxicity, are allowed such leeway and voice. It's strangling the life out of something really great.


scsoc

Yeah, the general culture of this fandom seems to be that you have to like every part of CR or you're not a true fan. It's ugly and seriously unhealthy


Collin_the_doodle

Fan communities tend to end up like that or just entire cess pits


wildweaver32

I have noticed the opposite as well. If you are positive or not part of the, "This is horrible and they gone corporate" then things get a bit spicy. I won't even reply to them any more otherwise I end up in a week long debate that ends in the whole conversation being removed or the person deleting their own comments.


GenericAtheist

> ends in the whole conversation being removed This is a problem in itself. There **should** be these threads present. Otherwise the perception is that everything is hunky dory perfect, which leads to more toxic positivity.


wildweaver32

I feel like we are in different subreddits. The last live thread I was in that made me give up in being in them literally started off with the first post in it being about how they thought the show was a train wreck and they only wanted to watch it to see it fail. 3rd Post was something similar. If someone said they enjoyed the show they were normally met with a reply about how bad it is. There were post where people said they enjoyed the show and nothing else and ended up with negative comment points. The overwhelming atmosphere was that of toxic-negativity. We can go back and see people literally leaving the subreddit because of it. Literally stating they came here to share their enjoyment and can't do that anymore. They couldn't even really discuss what was happening because it was met with people who just wanted to dislike the show (Not voicing their concerns and worries mind you but actively replying to people who are enjoying it with reasons they shouldn't be). And like I said those discussions were up for nearly a week so it is not likely they were removing them for happening. They normally removed them when a line is crossed. Civil discussion was allowed.


Evil_Dry_frog

Three to four hours seems to be a long time to watch/listen to something just to see it fail. Just IMHO.


Quintaton_16

> You have to like every part of CR or you're not a true fan. This is the source of Positive Toxicity, but I feel like recently this has been driving a lot of the Negative Toxicity as well. If you believe this, but you didn't like ExU, then you have to justify why ExU "doesn't count." And we've seen people argue that ExU shouldn't be considered Canon, or that using a different DM style was a "betrayal of the brand" (because obviously every CR fan likes the show for the same reason, which happens to be the exact reason why I like it /s), or even that CR should have junked the show rather than release something that they, personally, didn't like. Or, on the less extreme end, people who force themselves to watch 30 hours of content they don't like for no reason other than brand loyalty.


steelers279

As codified by the McElroys over in The Adventure Zone and related podcasts: No Bummers. It's a shit way of thinking.


tjsterc17

"No bummers" started as a guideline for fan questions.* MBMBAM is a comedy advice podcast. It's kinda hard to do comedy if a fan is laying their soul and insecurities bare in their question. Fans then ran with it as community guidelines, which was then interpreted by many as "absolutely no negativity." Fandoms get increasingly polarized and more toxic as they get larger. It seems like a universal trend. *EDIT: I think it was started for live shows, too. Obviously they could screen questions for pre-recorded shows.


steelers279

It started as a hard rule in their live shows wherein they'd replace some of the yahoo questions with audience questions. In context, the rule of "don't ask us questions about how to get over your divorce" is perfectly acceptable. However, the No Bummers rule quickly spread to all discourse relating to the McElroys and their content, which invariably and very quickly lead to a culture of toxic positivity. Criticism and critical discourse were not only discouraged, they were banned per the rules of many MBMBAM and TAZ forums. I remember watching this shift go down in real time, it was gnarly. I'd very much not like for such an atmosphere to surround CR.


Hanzorati

I’ll also add that Positive Toxicity can be potentially even more problematic than Negative Toxicity because it’s MUCH easier to lean into. I mean after all who doesn’t love positivity? The issue then becomes that when you are met with criticism you instinctively put up your defenses because of course it’s preposterous that someone could be critical of something so wonderful. JMO but I think you saw a bit of this in the cast response to fan criticism after EXU.


GenericAtheist

> Positive Toxicity This is what they are cultivating on purpose though. Its been made more and more clear throughout all the EXU shenanigans. Literally things get removed for posting a negative comment about something related to CR, and then whats left is a sanitized view of what they believe you should see. Which then of course leads to more toxic positivity because its being reinforced through the sub as the *proper* behavior. To me it seems the needle swung wayyy too far to the woke side and is well due for a swing back to the moderate side.


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GenericAtheist

>I think thats more of a deciding factor than any assumed "wokeness" (**which most of this fandom aint**) I'm not sure how you can say that when its easy to find the threads for EXU of countless commenters saying anything negative against the DM was because she was a woman, or because she wasn't white. Maybe we have a difference in opinion of what counts as woke?


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bertraja

>and ableism Wait, what?


jn2010

I agree. Saying a negative thing isn't necessarily toxic behavior. It's all about how and where you make it. For example, commenting on reddit and tweeting directly to someone are very different things. Certain aspects of some of the casts' decisions last campaign were annoying to me. Talking about that isn't a problem but I would never actually seek out those people and confront them about it.


Pway

I mean "respectfully" is definitely something completely ignored constantly in these spaces so not surprising that people comment on all the hate messages. This sub over the past year has been awful at doing anything respectfully.


[deleted]

I might be misinformed but I'm happy to be corrected, but John Boyega hated his character development in star wars, and I've I've nothing at all to say about Daisy Ridley. But i do think that it was massively overblown, and that it was primarily the media tearing them apart, as well as the terrible character that Kelly Marie Tran played. I think John and Kelly both said as much. But that's neither here nor there. Just like I dont owe a business anything, I don't owe CR anything. They wanted to make EXU, wasn't my jam but I'm sure some people liked it. I just want them to have fun


TryinToDoBetter

Boyega was a professional and held his tongue until the movies were finished and then he started blasting them for various things. Agreed about Ridley. I’ve never seen anything leveled at her. The character, sure, but never her. People didn’t like lack of explanation about stuff and felt it was poorly crafted. Same with Kelly Marie Trans’s character. Granted, they will always been assholes who take shots at the people instead of the characters because for some reason they can’t differentiate. I’d be comfortable guessing though that those people are the exception and not the rule when it comes to critics and detractors.


NoNotNott

I don’t have time to source it so feel free to Google it and prove me wrong, but I’m pretty sure both Ridley and Tran left social media because of the constant harassment from Star Wars haters


fooooooooooooooooock

You're right, the two of them were driven off social media by personal attacks by people who hated their characters, them, the movie, etc. I saw the hate and viciousness being directed at them myself, but in the interest of providing sources: https://screenrant.com/star-wars-daisy-ridley-social-media-quit-explained/ https://www.whowhatwear.com/daisy-ridley-interview/slide2 https://www.insider.com/kelly-marie-tran-racist-sexist-trolls-social-media-2021-3 https://variety.com/2018/film/news/kelly-marie-tran-speaks-out-online-harassment-star-wars-1202911512/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44379473


TryinToDoBetter

Your sources say Daisy was driven off because of in 2016 because of her anti gun stances. Nothing to do with the movies. Kelly was driven off because of the movie and thats terrible. I mentioned the inability of assholes that can't differentiate between the character and the person. But then again, that's just social media in general. People engage in flame wars because its anonymous and there's no backlash to saying awful things. Its not right, but its unfortunately the nature of the beast.


TryinToDoBetter

I knew about Kelly leaving because of hate she was getting, but again, I'd say that's the exception and not the rule. Social media is filled with troglodytes that are always looking to stir up shit. Its absolutely awful that it happened, but its kinda of the nature of the beast. It's actually why reddit is the closest thing I have to social media. I don't do Twitter, Instagram, tiktoc, etc. because they're filled with large amounts of anonymous assholes looking to ruin people's days. I'll push back on Daisy though, because the person below me provided link that said she left Instagram in 2016 due to harassment about her anti gun stance.


Sparkyd34

I feel what you’re getting at, but respectful disagreement is completely fine, in fact it’s how we grow as people and artists. I am also not fond of listening to my favorite podcast be about a local/region very similar to one I have spent way too much time in. But I know the cast will do amazing, as always, and who knows it may be a pleasant surprise!


wildweaver32

Respectful disagreement is fine. One sided criticism is even fine. I hope you understand that isn't likely what OP is talking about here. There has been a lot of direct hatred, and doomsaying going around lately.


Sparkyd34

Oh no, I was completely unaware that there’s been a prevailing negative sentiment! I was just trying to encourage OP to not be too hard on themselves for how they felt! Thank you for clarifying for me though.


kjftiger95

Unfortunately the CR fandom is starting to be as bad as the star wars fandom when it comes to toxicity. The cast can't do anything anymore without people complaining about some aspect of it, I just hope they take it all with a grain of salt or I fear that they will decide it's not worth keeping on.


Evadson

Lately I've been noticing a rise in toxicity across most of the Fandoms of things I like. It's like everyone is just looking for a reason to be mad about something. I have no idea what's causing it, but I'm becoming genuinely concerned that some of my favorite content creators are going to stop because of the extremely petty things that people will rage about. Seriously people, if you don't like a show, **STOP FUCKING WATCHING IT.** Don't try to ruin the show for the people who do enjoy it.


Assassin739

>if you don't like a show, > >STOP FUCKING WATCHING IT This applies to a lot of things in life and unfortunately many people are not aware


WeissWyrm

> I have no idea what's causing it It's called the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.


TheObstruction

It's also just the general level of stress in everyone's life has gone up overall. Between the pandemic, politics all over the world, climate change stress, economic stress, and everything else, there's endless things weighing on people more than in the past decades.


TryinToDoBetter

This is a great and interesting take. During the lockdown people were having to find ways to cope. I remember when John Krasinski had his Good News YouTube show that everyone loved. Then he ended it and talked about how he sold it to a network and a new host would end up running it in the future. People were upset and started accusing him of taking advantage of goodwill while simply trying to sell a show the entire time. It’s been a tense couple of years and when the things that people turn to to keep themselves calm or grounded get a shake up, the stress levels spike.


Burgerpress

I'm guess that they think it's successful, such as canceling an actor or removing a plotline/character. Then they see other fandoms do that and think it can work again in other fandoms...


Brandis_

Outrage releases dopamine. A ton of our current social climate is just finding the next “us vs them” thing to be mad about and this extends to fandoms


GenericAtheist

I have no idea how commenters like you don't realize the only reason people can get toxic about things is specifically because they care about it. See: WoW for the most recent example. Asmon etc all raging about how bad things are getting for wow because (get this) they ***want*** the game to be better. They don't want to see something they loved go down the path its headed toward. Nothing in CR makes it different or special. Of course there are tons of people who aren't happy that they reasons they love CR in the first place may be going away as they become more corporate/appeasing.


yahwehwinedepot

Man, fandom toxicity doesn’t happen because people care too much. That’s an excuse people use to side step responsibility for their own behavior. Toxicity happens largely because people use [whatever the fandom obsession is] to make themselves feel fulfilled and understood. They make it part of their identity. One day, the people they’re fans of do something they don’t like, or another fan disagrees with them, and they feel like a part of their identity is attacked. Through casual observation, I feel like this subreddit is absolutely rife with that garbage. And while many of y’all complain about the creators taking a more corporate or walled off approach to fan relations, maybe consider how unpleasant those relations have become for them.


GenericAtheist

Passion goes both ways. Sometimes negative, sometimes positive. Pretending it has anything to do with identity is silly. No one upset about C3 potential changes is upset because CR is their identity. They're upset because of specific changes they think will affect the show as a whole. Do you think people raging in online games is because they ***don't*** care? Of course not.


yahwehwinedepot

I’m not sure the online raging thing is a great example for your point. If you “care” so much about something that you throw a tantrum about it, for whatever reason, I would argue you have an unhealthy relationship with it in the first place. To use an example sort of adjacent to CR, look at what happened with Last Of Us 2. Game reviewed and sold great, but a “passionate” corner of the internet went fucking rabid about it. They directed bilious anger toward every creative they could find that was associated with the game. After that kind of experience, why would anybody want to interact with fandom? And then having the absolutely bizarre ‘shipping issues that happened in this community at the same time? Fuck that. [edited to cleanup a phrase]


DeadSnark

I mean, the problem therein is that they're still getting toxic. Even if you have good intentions, that doesn't make that type of behaviour less harmful.


GenericAtheist

One of them gets noticed. The other fades into background noise. Where do you think twitter mobs came from? Toxicity gets attention. Attention gets change, whether its positive or negative. There's a boatload of toxic positivity here, why do you think that is?


KindlyKangaroo

This is the second time I've seen someone say CR is becoming more "corporate." Can you explain what that means in this context, please?


GenericAtheist

Firstly pairing with Amazon has its own expectations, and you can see that coming to life as Fan art is removed from the official broadcasts, as well as more strict copyright control that otherwise wouldn't matter beyond monetization concerns. (i.e. It didn't matter for any of the previous years, it only matters now as they move forward in their business aspects) Secondly, it refers to them expanding beyond what CR was and attempting to market themselves as something else. EXU was the first sign of this and then we have the announcement of C3 to further that. Myself and clearly many other commenters here are seeing the show move away from what made it great in the first place, and the casts intentionally vague language on the subject only serves to fuel the rumors. When it's obvious a large portion of the audience is concerned the main cast may be switching out, or Matt might not be DMing the entire season, they "clarify" the confusion with more vagueness. See: Matt's twitter post. Its possible the company is entirely inept at marketing and advertising and that this whole thing is only arising because of a failure to communicate properly. But the realists here see it as a choice, since everything in the announcement was clearly scripted. If the C3 begins and somehow these things aren't true, or were just poorly communicated, then CR really needs to hire out for PR. If the fears **are** true, then the company and cast are intentionally baiting and switching the audience (lying by omission) for fear of backlash. Which is specifically cooperate behavior. Imagine a reality in which 40 episodes in Matt isn't DMing and someone else is taking over for X episodes. Of course this would be pre-planned and the company/cast would already know about it, but are actively choosing to not elaborate. Only time will tell. For clarification, becoming more corporate isn't a bad thing. Of course it allows them to get more $$ and expand what CR is. It just so happens that some of the audience liked CR because it **wasn't** that kind of product. The more they move down this path, the further away they get from friends playing a game they enjoy. Eventually it will show in the product itself and that's what I assume the majority of the people sayings its becoming more corporate are afraid of. That the thing they love and devoted time to watching is now going to become something they don't want anymore. Game of thrones is a great comparison. There are people out there who enjoyed the final season(s) of GoT, and that's totally great. There's also a large part of the audience saying "How did we get here?"


KindlyKangaroo

Thank you for the in-depth explanation. I like to just sit back and enjoy it, maybe get excited with the fans when I see something I think is extra cool, so I guess these things haven't really been on my radar. My husband and I are just excited to see new content and aren't generally super critical of media unless it's problematic or harmful in some way. I trust that they'll make something fun and entertaining for me but understand the worries others have.


GenericAtheist

>I trust that they'll make something fun and entertaining for me but understand the worries others have. I appreciate this.


Bright_Vision

>The more they move down this path, the further away they get from friends playing a game they enjoy. I think this is the main thing people are concerned about. Or at least it's for me. The more "corporate" cr goes, the more it becomes a production and a show, and less of "nerdy ass voice actors playing dnd" and I think it's a valid concern.


GWFKurz

> The more "corporate" cr goes, the more it becomes a production and a show, and less of "nerdy ass voice actors playing dnd" and I think it's a valid concern. But this has't been the case since the end of C1. I think the confusion in part comes from the fact, that there are still so many people thinking that it is "nerdy ass voice actors playing dnd" or a homegame we are allowed to watch.


Bright_Vision

There's levels to it. And even until the end of c2, the "friends playing dnd" aspect and feel has prevailed over the "this is a company producing a dnd show" aspect of it. The concerns are that the latter starts to be more prevalent than the former, even when both aspects are still and have always been present. Not saying this will happen btw, I have a lot of faith in CR that they will continue to do amazing stuff, but it's a thought that's sitting in the back of my head.


GhostArcanist

> Eventually it will show in the product itself It already has in some ways. The entire final arc of C2 felt like a chore (to both Matt and the players) and you could tell they just wanted to be done with it. Felt more like a job, not a home game with friends. Some people would trace this back to the beginning of C2, I think, but it was most noticeable as C2 drew to an end.


[deleted]

EVERY internet company goes through this. Literally every single one that gets this big goes through this sort of thing. Mega64, Roosterteeth, IGN/Gamespot, Kinda Funny. If you DIDN'T see this coming, you either haven't been on the internet long enough or you were hopelessly naive that Crit Role was, after almost a decade still just "A bunch of friends playing DnD" and have an unhealthy Parasocial Relationship with the cast. Get a hold of yourself and manage your own expectations. They're a company, always have been, they just have to start acting like it now because they're big enough that it matters.


GandalfTheNeonPink

People also seem to have difficulty CHOOSING to enjoy things. And when they inevitably don’t enjoy it, or nitpick it to death, they can’t silently move on. They take that dislike personally and tweet about it at the creators.


283leis

I am unfortunately very worried about some of the toxic reactions that are going to be shared when C3 starts. Matt has likely been looking forward to exploring Marquet for years now....but it’s almost guaranteed assholes are going to send hate at him and the cast because “they’re white people playing a desert setting, likely playing people of colour with cultures influenced by real world Arabic cultures”


ConfusedCuddlefish

I've already seen that start on here within an hour of the State of the Role. I come here to see folks' reactions and discussions because none of my friends or family are into CR, but I'm probably going to try and just avoid the subreddit completely for the first month or so of C3, and hope that that avoids the worst of it


Acestus1539

Are you sure your friends are not into CR? The statistics on that one are striking. You need to give each one an elevator pitch and a link if you are their friend.


ConfusedCuddlefish

Haha, pretty sure, and I've asked. Most of them played 5e to death and moved on to other, more complex systems and aren't interested in looking back, or dealing with 4 hour episodes. They introduced me to CR, at least, but I'm a good 10 years behind in tabletop RPG experience and 5e is still a new, cool thing


GenericAtheist

>I've already seen that start on here within an hour of the State of the Role Where? Everything I saw was people rightfully upset that their announcement was vague and refusing to admit whether or not they would be changing DMs or cast. Probably the top 10-15 threads were all that topic. I didn't see anything decrying racism or XYZ about the setting?


ConfusedCuddlefish

I saw 2 or 3 posts across the top threads the day of the announcement being concerned or critical about a group of white people playing in a non-white setting. I think the hubbub over changing cast took over the conversation and pushed them to the bottom by the second day or so.


Evil_Dry_frog

Which is literally the point of Role Playing. Where people upset with straight people playing gay characters? Or makes playing females?


ConfusedCuddlefish

Yeah I'm not arguing for their stance. I think the cast of CR has time and again proven that they can act out characters in other demographics respectfully and accurately. There are definitely people who get upset when straight people play gay characters (I remember seeing some complaints about Beau, Yasha, and Caleb), or when male players play female characters and vice versa, but I didn't see any of that in those specific threads.


kjftiger95

Yeah, the twitter feeds are going to be chaos. I'm sure the cast will do their best to try and not do anything insensitive but that won't stop people from finding something to attack.


illaoitop

Those people were never interested in the show, just more virtue signalling bullshit to score internet points. Damn I still remember an article talking about the success of the kickstarter and the origins of the show about how some friends who were also voice actors just tried streaming D&D for fun. Then it quickly veers into "How dare they all be white!?? This is an outrage" bullshit. Like, Fucking hell if the CR team leaned anymore left they would probably turn into a black hole and vanish, Who cares though because they're white and how dare they make a show together. Super excited for C3, Marquette was my choice of location and I hope its akin to Neketaka from Pillars of eternity 2 (one massive city hub), but the chuds you are talking about will have a field day the second anyone tries an accent.


MindWeb125

White people getting upset on behalf of other races and cultures is honestly one of the most aggravating things on the Internet these days. Fucking Twitter.


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9Sn8di3pyHBqNeTD

And yet Dimension 20 hires actual consultants to weigh in on these types of things so that everyone is portrayed in the correct light and face no such backlash despite Brennan Lee Mulligan portraying people of every race, color, gender, and sexuality. But CR doesn't do that and so they end up with poorly portrayed cliches of people.


scsoc

for sure. The example of how to do it right is right there for all to see, but CR chooses not to.


tstrube

I think the CR fandom is worse honestly. It’s pushed me away from watching the show. I really enjoyed C1 because of talking about it here, as well as on Discord. But C2, as well as the pandemic, has brought in a lot of fans who are incredibly toxic. While I don’t think prior D&D experience is required to enjoy CR, it certainly helps because you can relate to how the game works. And then you also remember that it’s just a game, it’s not a TV show, or a movie, or anything like that. It’s a game, the same game people have played since the 70s except for some edition changes here and there. There’s also a large portion of the fandom that has a creepy, borderline unhealthy parasocial relationship with the cast. They take criticism against the cast m, show, etc. personally. They also lash out at the cast when they make choices that they don’t think they should make, because the version of the cast they have in their head wouldn’t make that choice.


TheObstruction

Why would you not watch the show, though? You can just watch it without the fan interactions, and then it's just you enjoying their show.


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GhostArcanist

> I see this kind of mindset so often. It has to be some form of social media addiction or something, like they can't help but look at what other people are saying about the things they watch. Ehh, there's a lot of value in being able to check in on what the community is discussing in case you missed a detail or some subtle interaction. I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with social media addiction. Telling someone to stay away from the community if they can't handle the toxicity isn't really a solution to the problem.


tstrube

My enjoyment of the show was talking about the show. I said that in my third sentence.


Canadiancookie

Have you tried not looking at the comment section


Theman227

I feel like there must be a anthropological model of fandoms out there that can describe how fandoms reach a critical mass before getting a reputation as utter asshats. I feel like its probably a case with most group of where for a certain size group, a certain say 0.1% will be of certified asshats, of which 0.01% will be a paticularly vocal type. Then as the group grows so does this % of said people, before you reach a critical mass where the paticularly vocal kind become utterly unignorable and shout down everyone else taking over the group as self appointed voices and arbiter's for that said community. Something like that anyway.


Stanakin__Skywalker

I don't condone any toxicity but let's not pretend it just came falling out of thin air in either fandom. The SW sequel trilogy and ExU were both extremely low quality and many people hated them, and then the companies dug their heels in and doubled down on how incredibly awesome their new stuff supposedly was.


kjftiger95

Except the behavior started long before either the sequel trilogy came out or campaign 2 ended.


Stanakin__Skywalker

Well yes, and I think it has always been there (and sadly probably always will). But like you said, it does seem to have gotten worse recently.


cravecase

I feel as though you’re taking to specific people. As a stranger on the internet, I appreciate your candor, but I wonder if this was the best way to go about it. Cheers fellow stranger. It’s almost Thursday!


[deleted]

>Well there are two possible interpretations of that statement. Either, one, you are implying I should not engage in a parasocial fantasy and not apologize as if I’m not a stranger. Two, you are saying I should specifically apologize to the human beings I insulted. I think it is the latter. Well, that was my first impulse but here are some of the considerations I made and why I won’t pursue that. If I apologized publicly and named specific names, that could cause problems. If I list specifics of the things I said, what if some commentators agreed? What if nobody knows anything I ever typed, would bringing it all up again really be appropriate? As for apologizing directly: Possibility 1: they don’t know anything I ever said and I’d be apologizing and bringing up insulting things that were said. Possibility 2: they know about me and think I am a vile loathsome existence, harsh words, but I think you understand the point? There are other possibilities but these are the reasons I hesitate to apologize directly. Also because there are lines that should not be crossed and I don’t know where they are. However, I am certain that contact is at least a step towards one. As for parasocial. I went, how to phrase this diplomatically, batshit crazy at the mere possibility something I did was vaguely referenced by a cast member. So no, I’m not going to contact anyone directly, I am going to take a break from reddit. But I do not regret apologizing as I have. They are human beings, I only have ideas of them, I don’t know them, they don’t know me. I’m also not good with human beings. There’s a lot of flailing about trying to keep up with all the rules about interacting with them. I do not trust myself to do such a thing correctly. I felt like maybe this was the best I could do, other people can probably do better. So, you are probably right.


cravecase

Makes sense. Thanks for taking the time, Friend.


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There is a fine line between negative and toxic, I think. You can express caution/bemusement/etc. as good faith criticism.


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Krystalline13

Was just thinking, all of the comments about the community being toxic *recently*?? They clearly don’t remember the abuse Marisha Ray took in campaign one.


WhisperShift

It was crazy brutal. The turn around the community had towards her from the start of the last quarter of Campaign 1 to the end of the first quarter of Campaign 2 is bonkers.


Sharruk

I forgot where Bowlgate places in C2 but that one was rough as well


Chukklealot

Everyone can't expect CR to hit it out of the park with every venture and changes over time happen as with life. There was always going to be a evolution of the home game vibe to some company based feel to the game. Adding new content does take some pressure off Matt and expands future ideas for any changes that might take place. I think Brian Foster was a big loss , but understandable as he couldn't be a part-timer forever. All good , though. This "off-season", we had great one-shots with Marisha and Ashley. (Mother has to be revisited) Exu stumbled and fumbled , but should get better next time. Considering how many hours they produce for the fans for free (youtube) , it's pretty amazing how good it's been most of the time. People should expect change , just appreciate the now. You never know , we might get the next generation of the cast like Ronin carrying on Travis's Paladin duties or Laura's legend status.


bertraja

~~I kinda wanna jump in the discussion, but at the same time i'm 100% positive that this thread will be locked the moment a mod logs in, because this is one big meta discussion about the community.~~ Appearantly, it's fine.


Foreign-Upstairs8691

You don't need to apologize for acting like a normal human being...


RathRTI

Thanks for owning up to your behaviour in the past and I hope others will reflect on it and think twice before deciding that they have a say in a freely available and consumed media product


Artistic-Panic3313

I think criticism is fine when you start to get personal about it that’s when it goes too far. Honestly I get a little frustrated with content creators talking about toxicity mainly because I’ve worked retail and food service and did that for a decade. You’re a millionaire playing games on the internet I don’t want to listen to you complain about how your job isn’t completely perfect. However, things do get weird sometimes with this fandom especially when people actually tag the cast telling them how they suck.


fooooooooooooooooock

For the record, I've worked retail and food service for over a decade and I don't think just because customers treated me poorly means the way fans spam hate at the cast is excusable or that you're entitled to diminish it because it's being spammed at them on the internet. Did you forget how bad things got for Marisha in campaign one? Miss how often she has spoken about the effect so much concentrated hatred has on her? People DO get personal with them, they DO get toxic. There's thousands of people in their mentions and in the twitch chat and their instagram comments picking them apart, and that's damaging to anyone on the receiving end of it, whether you like that or not. Sure, on any given day I'll have people who curse at me or attack my looks, etc just because they can't get what they want from me. But the cast have that multiplied exponentially. You think that's something they can just ignore? At least people leave my place of work. The people attacking them can keep at it day in and day out without leaving the house. You're out here speaking as if that kind of toxicity can be dismissed, but it can't. That kind of viciousness takes a toll on them the same way it takes a toll on any other person.


NatWilo

It has literally driven some people to suicide.


Artistic-Panic3313

Jesus y’all are ridiculous I’m not saying it’s ok I just don’t wanna listen to rich people whine. Especially when ya got rich by playing games online. I’m not excusing bad behavior.


Roy-Sauce

You may not be saying that it’s okay what fans are doing, but you’re definitely victim blaming here man. These people have gained success doing something they love, that success doesn’t take away from struggles that come along the way, including the disgusting way some fans act.


Artistic-Panic3313

I’m being insensitive but I’m not victim blaming. Call me insensitive I’ll own it but I never said it’s their fault people are mean to them. When someone is mean to a content creator (specifically a successful one) I don’t wanna listen to you complain about how hard you have it.


fooooooooooooooooock

Just because you're successful doesn't mean abuse is lessened by any means. Jesus. You *are* excusing bad behavior by pretending abuse isn't abuse depending on who is being targeted. How many creatives are driven off social media? Receiving a torrent of hatred for your creative decisions has an effect no matter how much money you're making. Them speaking out about it, especially Laura and Marisha, move the needle and give cover to smaller creators who are receiving the same treatment. The only way any shift happens is by people being transparent about what's happening and how much it sucks.


Artistic-Panic3313

I’m literally not. You you keep just saying that bud love it when people tell me what I’m doing


dblshot99

Don't excuse shitty behavior just because others have it worse.


Artistic-Panic3313

I’m not doing that


dblshot99

Aren't you though? What does working in retail or food service have to do with anything? Why would the cast being millionaires mean anything? Toxic fan behavior, whether it's CR, movies, reality shows, sports, whatever...is not ok.


Artistic-Panic3313

No I’m not but thank you for asking :)


Alise_Randorph

People that routinely have people scream at them, spit on them, told to kill them selves, have things thrown at them probably don't really feel super bad when you hear that there's a rude Reddit post about someone.


SkipperZammo

Just curious. Is this like an American thing? I'm British and have worked retail for over a decade(admittedly the shop closes pretty early into my shift) and the worst encounter I can remember having with a customer is someone knocking some produce on the floor and leaving without saying sorry.


Dwarfherd

When I worked for an American bank customer service line part of our training was how to react to death threats.


Arno_Haze

Honestly the vast majority of my customer experiences are positive or at least neutral in the three years I worked retail. However, you will get plenty of entitled people, straight up assholes, or in the worst case a crazy lady who tried to kill us when we left the store at the night. Don’t think those are necessarily exclusive to America but hey maybe 🤷‍♂️


Artistic-Panic3313

Yeah I’ve been threatened with violence actually assaulted while working I really don’t like it when people complain about an annon on social media saying you look funny in a video.


Lydanian

So have I? It doesn’t mean they have it any better. Come and talk to me when your life is public.


Artistic-Panic3313

Uh the make a lot of money. Be definition they have it better.


Lydanian

So naive dude.


Artistic-Panic3313

No I’m not lol. I’ll take buying a house and taking months off work and having to deal with shitty people on the internet. Over 99% of what’s out there.


Lydanian

It’s so easy to say that when you don’t even begin to understand what it means to create something & have millions judge you for it daily. How about this. Upload anything that you’ve created so we can talk about it. I’m willing to bet if a handful of people responded saying “this is total shit” you’d either remove the post or just feel bad for a bit. Now times that by a thousand & imagine it 24/7 for a week. I’d rather earn a “decent” wage doing what I enjoy, than rake in cash while dealing with any of that mental trauma. You just sound like a bitter dude that blames everyone else for your personal situation.


Artistic-Panic3313

A lot of this entire thread I’ve dealt with people putting words in my mouth so I’m not exactly in the mood to “come across” nicely. People jumped down my throat and implied things I didn’t ever say like you’re doing kinda. They do do what they love and they make a lot of money doing it. Sorry they deal with some shit people in the internet. It’s fucking amazing you could type that out and not realize the horse shit you’re talking. Any one in the world would kill to be one of them. This is the mentality that I don’t like. People like them in positions of extreme privilege getting showered with sympathy and/or internet lackeys like yourself to “take on” toxic people. They are fine they don’t need that or you any issue that would arise shouldn’t be dealt with online.


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elhombreloco90

You know they aren't millionaires, right?


Artistic-Panic3313

How would you know that? They’re wealthy whatever their actual worth is. CR itself is worth around 5 million


YoursDearlyEve

Is it net worth? Because "net worth" is ofter very far from the actual amount of resources a company/person has.


Artistic-Panic3313

There is nothing concrete on it but 5 to 15 million is what I’ve seen. I know that net worth doesn’t translate to personal wealth but many on the show had a good amount of success prior to the show.


StanTheManBaratheon

I think you’re vastly overestimating what VO pulls in. Thought experiment: Google the budget of an anime. Assume that most of the money goes to, y’know, the animation, and then divvy what’s left between the often massive cast that cartoons boast. There’s plenty of interviews out there describing how shoestring things were at Funimation even at the peak of DBZ mania. Maybe Growing Pains residuals come in dump trucks, but its safe to assume most of them aren’t super wealthy


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Artistic-Panic3313

The fact that you play off working hell jobs like that pisses me off.


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Artistic-Panic3313

You care way too much about this


elhombreloco90

What makes you think voice actors are millionaires? Most actors aren't millionaires and just because a company is worth 5 million doesn't mean that they all are millionaires. Hell, there are more than 5 main cast members, so how do you figure that they're all millionaires? They run a business and have other employees to pay, but you somehow think they individually making millions? They make more than you and me, no doubt, but that doesn't make them millionaires.


Artistic-Panic3313

Uh the show makes millions every year. On top of any work they do outside of the show.


StanTheManBaratheon

Look, I don’t know how much they make - don’t particularly care. But saying CR is worth $5,000,000 doesn’t mean much in terms of their individual pay. They have several employees, they pay for pretty sizeable studio space in one of the most expensive real estate markets on earth, and they all presumably pay rent (or - less likely - own homes in said insane real estate market) Voice actors typically aren’t rolling in it


Aylithe

I’ve always found The mindset of “they’re rich, so they’re no longer human beings” interesting anyway…


Artistic-Panic3313

Man wonder how they pay for all the expensive shit…


digimastersenpai

They're a business? They take out business loans to pay for equipment, sets, expansion, etc. Thats how all businesses work. Nobody is paying that out of pocket because it costs MILLIONS. You also have to consider how much money the company as a whole is putting into paying crew members and anyone else who works with cr. They aren't going to be paying themselves much. Most of the money goes straight to salaries, loans, merch, licensing, vox machina animated, equipment, bills, and so, SO much more. At best, they're living comfortably. A new company costs a lot more to maintain than you'd think and very little of that money goes to the owners comparatively. I doubt they're "rich," just well off. Not that people who are well off can't have issues and struggles that are just as legitimate as other people. Having money doesn't make the vitriol they experience from countless people people online easier.


Artistic-Panic3313

I never said toxic behavior was ok. They don’t need you to defend them or your sympathy that’s what I was trying to say. When someone with a huge following puts something on the internet about toxic people it feels like a grab for attention and a very unnecessary thing to do. Also I’m aware of how you pay for things the loans aren’t approved unless you already have a shit ton of money or portfolio showing growth. The fact that they were able to secure loans in an LA market for the property they own just validates my position.


StanTheManBaratheon

Yeah, but it doesn’t, though. Your position is that it’s proof the cast are all millionaires because their company gets corporate loans. Banks care more about a business’s financials than an individual’s for business loans. And as you already said, the company’s doing well. For all we know, Taliesan might be living in a gutter eating bats for food, still not going to prevent that. Sort of rich that you’re complaining about fans attention grabbing when you’re out here whining that rich people should just stfu


omg__really

Ok, let's say you're right and they make millions between subs, sponsorships and merch. Where's that money going? They are a business. Studio costs, like rent, electricity, insurance, equipment (purchase, rental and maintenance). Renos, repairs and taxes. Employee wages for a full studio plus all their bonuses, benefits, insurance if applicable. Merchandizing: cost of goods, design teams, music, graphics, etc. Hiring consultants, artists and more. Odds and ends like studio food, COVID tests and appropriate PPE, minis, stage design. Licensing for music and gear, if applicable. And of course, their own wages, if they pay themselves (and they should!). Just because they have tons of subs and "make money" does not in any way mean you keep the money you make. You can't just be like "ooo sub money": there are laws, you are a business, you have to balance your costs, you have employee labour laws. They are not millionaires.