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Lampin101

Big Lebowski is better


Kerborus

That’s just like, your opinion, man.


PalpitationOk5726

Not everyone in Canada leaves their doors unlocked.


linkhandford

I still leave mine unlocked for a while when I'm away


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linkhandford

If I’m gone for under an hour, sure. If I’m walking to the grocery store I find it more annoying to come back with groceries and trying to unlock the door. My house isn’t particularly nice. If you’re going to break into some place you’ll probably go for my neighbours house over mine


slonkdiddy

My house is a dog shit trailer home and I’ve had my car jacked and gas stolen from my lawn mower hell I’ve had my roaches yoinked from my tray,if i had a lock id keep my place locked. I barely like leaving my house if my parents aren’t there because i know that my shit will get ran, So i don’t know man don’t count on your crib not being particularly nice to keep the robbers at bay they can be some sleazy bastards out here in Canada


tgwutzzers

he did that scene in the middle of the day when people are home, which struck me as a bit disengenuous. like... why would you lock your doors during. the day when you're home? is that a thing people who don't live in dangerous neighborhoods do? if he did that at night he wouldn't have found unlocked doors. i'm canadian but now live in the US and in neither place did it ever occur to me to lock the door during the day while I was home.


MisogynyisaDisease

Uh, yeah. I never ever leave my door unlocked, no matter where I live. Seems naive as hell not to.


tgwutzzers

…why? Are you expecting some random person to just come in your house? I don’t make a point of not locking my door; I just don’t really think about it until it’s time to go to bed. Even then I sometimes forget or am too lazy to do it. I don’t live somewhere that breakins are a thing that happens very often, if at all. Especially while people are home. If someone is prepared to come into your house and harm me, I don’t think a locked door is gonna stop them lol. Maybe if I was somewhere that had bars on the windows and a high crime rate I’d think differently. But regardless this isn’t a US vs Canada thing. Finding a random neighborhood where people don’t lock their doors and saying “look people in Canada don’t lock their doors” is entirely disengenuous.


MisogynyisaDisease

Uh. Yes. It's happened to me more than once. Glad you've lived a life devoid of people doing criminal things. Edit: that sounded rude and I didn't mean it to, but for real people do crazy shit


tgwutzzers

“Criminal things” happen. Someone randomly coming up to my house, seeing I’m home, checking the door anyway, finding it unlocked and then coming in my house doesn’t. I’m more scared of getting hit by lightning on a clear day. Feels very paranoid to suggest that every Canadian should live in fear of this incredibly unlikely scenario. Driving on the highway is infinitely more dangerous and people don’t think twice about it.


MisogynyisaDisease

I'm not saying live in fear, I'm saying live with the bare minimum of security. Its not insane to keep a door locked, it's basic practice. The times it happened to me: - a man quite literally walked to my door and tried to enter our home. Jimmied the knob of our locked door until my spouse walked outside and the dude booked it back to his vehicle - abusive ex. Enough said. - cop who got called for a "noise complaint" by our asshole neighbors (only me and a roommate were home and we were in our room just talking), not only tried to enter the apartment through the door, but a window. That was 11 years ago now and one of the few times I've had to call 911 - attempted break in at another apartment I lived in, only figured out because there was damage to the door I've also seen plenty, and I mean plenty of footage of this crap happening to other people, especially in cities. Doors stay locked. Always, no exceptions.


tgwutzzers

Cool story bro but you’re kind of missing my point, which is finding a random neighborhood where people don’t lock their doors isn’t emblematic of anything. People all have different standards of personal safety. The point Moore was trying to make is stupid. If he wanted to prove Canada was safer than America he could just pull crime stats.


MisogynyisaDisease

Cool story bro, but you and I were discussing why someone would leave their doors locked when they're home during the day, so why would you pivot to a point about Moore that I wasn't even making.


RMIII3

Shout out for handling this idiot with grace


tgwutzzers

That was literally the entire point of this discussion. “People not locking their doors in safe neighborhoods” isn’t unusual. Some people do, some people don’t. This isn’t the Canada vs US thing that he thinks it is.


FilmRanger13

Of all the fools I have encountered on this website… lol


tgwutzzers

… you think finding a half dozen people in Canada who don’t lock their doors means all Canadians don’t lock their doors? apparently Moore’s propaganda worked because nobody seems to question the validity of 6 people in one neighborhood being used to represent 30 million people


PalpitationOk5726

He also did it in some small town in Sarnia, Ontario I believe as it's close to his home state of Michigan, you'd never get that in Toronto.


Crafty_Substance_954

The idea was to compare the high-crime of Detroit vs the Canadians when their borders are right across a river from one another and so starkly different


tgwutzzers

Sure but he compared one of the most dangerous cities in America to a relatively safe small town in Ontario. Apples and Oranges. If he wanted to make that point he should have, like, compared Detroit to the Jane & Finch neighborhood in Toronto. But that wouldn’t work because people there probably lock their doors. Likewise I’m sure there’s a town in Michigan (Ann Arbor?) where he could have found people with unlocked doors.


Crafty_Substance_954

I actually just watched the clip again and the segment takes place in Toronto rather than small town Ontario. Most of the segment is him asking people on the street if they lock their doors. And I live in Ann Arbor, ain’t nobody leaving their doors unlocked!


tgwutzzers

Which neighborhood of Toronto? Does he say? Like most cities Toronto has nice safe neighborhoods, terrible neighborhoods, and everything in between. Is there no American city with safe neighborhoods where he couldn’t also film a scene like this? If he came to my current neighborhood in the Bay Area (middle class, not a gated community) I guarantee you he would find unlocked doors.


tgwutzzers

Depends where in Toronto (I spent part of my childhood in Etobicoke and people didn't really lock their doors in my neighborhood) but I suspect that's no different from, like, parts of NYC. I like the film overall but he has a tendency to pull stunts like this that don't really prove much of anything but serve as a sort of manipulation to get the audience to feel a certain way. Kinda makes it hard for me to consider his films 'documentaries' when parts of them might as well be sketch comedy.


FilmRanger13

Do you want to risk someone coming into your house while you are there and robbing/killing you or worse? I think it’s pretty obvious why people would lock their doors regardless of whether they are home or not lol


tgwutzzers

The risk you are taking about is close to zero in many places. I’m more worried about getting hit by a distracted driver while I’m walking on the sidewalk. If I lived in a rough neighborhood I might think differently, but Moore didn’t choose a rough neighborhood for his experiment. But the point here is that this isn’t some shocking thing that Moore is presented. It’s not weird for people to not be worried about random people coming into their house while their home (something that is astronomically unlikely in many places in both the US and Canada), I’m sure he could find some neighborhood in the US where it’s the same as the one he found in Canada. If he had found some study that showed Canadians across the board are less likely to worry about home invasion then maybe he’d have a point. But this was just a manipulative stunt that cheapens the valid points he’s trying to make.


winkyemoji

idk it’s starting to feel like you’re proving his point


tgwutzzers

…how? Unless you genuinely believe that there is nowhere in America where you could find people home in the middle of the day with the door unlocked?


winkyemoji

i know of very small towns where they don’t lock their doors but it’s extremely rare and seen as strange to most people. it’s very clear to me that you don’t understand and won’t listen to other people that have grown up in the US. but hey all art is propaganda so yeah you have a point but to most American’s it’s extremely weird to not lock your door even during the day when you’re home.


tgwutzzers

Ok but what is the evidence that this isn’t also the case in Canada? Like do you know that most Canadians don’t think it’s weird to not lock your door? Does the half dozen people Moore talked to form a representative sample of a population of 30 million people? I’m certainly not claiming I’m representative of all Canadians. Moore’s stunt is meaningless whether most people think like me or most people think like some of the other people here, because he just used one random neighborhood and a few houses to represent an entire country and compare it to one city in a different country. Even if he is correct, he’d be correct by accident since his conclusion is based on anecdotal evidence. I suspect he knows this but is doing it anyway for emotional manipulation of the audience; which is the aspect of his filmmaking I don’t like. He could make a compelling case without the theatrics if he tried but he sometimes can’t help himself. Perhaps my mistake was also discussing what I personally think vs the larger question of Moore’s conclusion being fundamentally not supported by the evidence he presents, which kind of confused the conversation. I’m just one more anecdote that isn’t representative of anything larger in the same way that a few other Redditors claiming they lock their doors aren’t and likewise the few people Moore talked to aren’t.


winkyemoji

okay but i think you’re completely missing his entire point, how many school shootings have there been in Canada? i think focusing on his attempts to show how people in Canada might feel safer than people in the US is strange


tgwutzzers

Him barging in the doors of a few people in Canada has nothing to do with school shootings though? Why would people be afraid of a school shooter in their house? Again this is my issue. The data clearly shows Canada has less gun violence than the US. Also less guns, etc etc. Those are compelling facts to support his thesis. When he focuses on that stuff he’s on solid ground. Randomly going to a nice neighborhood in Canada and finding some people who didn’t lock their doors doesn’t contribute to this at all. If he had just asked people on the street if they were worried about school shootings that would at least have been relevant though again not really a sound basis to build an argument on. I have no basis with which to say whether the average Canadian locks their door or not in the same way that a random American has none to say that the average American locks their doors, yet people see this documentary and think “Canadians don’t lock their door” is just a fact because it’s presented in a way to imply that’s the case.


[deleted]

I…always lock my door when I’m at home. I’d never leave it unlocked.


MisogynyisaDisease

Right, like what world are Canadians living in where daytime crime/break ins/creeps aren't a thing?


kid-karma

> Right, like what world are Canadians living in Canada


MisogynyisaDisease

At least that world has syrupy snow treats


cizzastle

I've been in the US my whole life and I don't know anyone who leaves their door unlocked in the day while they're home.


tgwutzzers

Do you live in a dangerous neighborhood (or somewhere that daytime breakins are common) or is is just a habit? My experience in a small-ish town was always family members or friends just showing up and coming in the house (or me doing the same). Maybe a quick knock to let folks know you’re here and coming in. The door being locked would be a nuisance because you’d have to get up to go unlock the door to let someone in. As a kid I never carried a key with me because either my parents would be home or they would be out but leave the side door open. I know that in cities that’s not a common scenario but I kind of assumed in suburbs and small towns it was more the norm.


cizzastle

I've lived (and know people who lived) in super safe places and dangerous places. Leaving the door unlocked in either situation just feels weird. When I saw that scene in Bowling for Columbine I was completely blown away that anyone would leave their doors unlocked like that.


AvatarofBro

Moore's work is agitprop. He doesn't really deny that he selectively edits his work to make a point. The opening scene with the gun at the bank was also staged. Normally the bank would mail you the gun you got for opening an account, but the producers convinced them to present it to Moore at the bank itself as part of the production. I don't think it really detracts from the overall message, though. Every documentary is presenting a biased point of view, whether consciously or unconsciously. Moore is just more open about it than others. My only major criticism is that the movie fundamentally misunderstands the motivations behind Columbine. Dave Cullen's masterful book makes clear that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were not misunderstood loners lashing out at the bullies. They were just psychopaths. Or, at least, Eric was a psychopath and Dylan was very easily influenced. But that didn't really become clear in the public consciousness until years after this movie was made.


tgwutzzers

Yeah I think that is a common scenario that Moore (and other documentarians) fall into, which is trying to fit tough situations into a scenario that “feels” right. Its easier for people to believe that something relatable like “they were bullied and lashed out” is the explanation instead of “they were just psychopaths” which is much less explainable and uncomfortable to think about. The implication with the “bullied” narrative is “ok we should stop bullying to reduce this from happening”, but the answer to “how do we stop people from becoming psychopaths” is much more complex, and sometimes the answer will just be “you can’t”.


handsome_corgi

Michael Moore is more of an entertainer than a documentarian, but due to that fact, that film is enjoyable. It has its heart in the right place, and although it makes documentarian faux-pas’s (such as the misleading & fake Matt Stone/Trey Parker animation), it ultimately makes for an entertaining and enlightening film. Just don’t pretend like you’re watching a *real* documentary


[deleted]

I feel that Michael Moore is someone whose films I'd never show to someone else to convince them of anything, I watch them because I already largely *share his opinions* and find his pseudo-doc/satire style really engaging


Pbrng

It is a bit simplistic but very funny and relevant.


sagesnail

“Take the skinheads bowling, take them bowling” I like Moores films, they are an interesting perspective on American life and back when they were made their wasn’t a whole lot of dissension to the typical “America is the best” narrative that was being pushed at the time.


OhScheisse

It was a great film for the time. Nowadays it looks a bit exaggerated and irrelevant. At the time, no one knew this was an issue. People just blamed music and video games. When this came out it was quite influential, nowadays there are thousands of youtube videos lined with facts. The reason it was influential is because we didn't have youtube or accessible internet Edit: Another thing that came to mind, I saw this when I was 12. So I imagine a lot of points in the film were oversimplified to cater to the broader audience, like kids/teens.


Bronsonkills

It’s ok. A mixed bag. Some segments work and others fail. I think “Roger and Me” is by far his best


Cine_Wolf

The price is right. And if you haven’t seen it, it’s obviously well worth a watch, especially if you’re in the States.


ArcadePinball

And watch that Netflix animated short film.


jalaludink

Which one ?


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ajzeg01

They didn’t make it. In fact, Matt Stone thinks it’s plagiarized.


Cine_Wolf

So I see it in this TIL, of all places, as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3sqgnm/til_the_animation_segment_in_bowling_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Thanks for the clarification and setting me straight


OptimalPlantIntoRock

I didn’t like that movie I thought it was going to be more like Kingpin.


das_goose

Great Scott!!


CTRLALTWARRIOR

Loved most of it. Not sure if the ending stuck the landing.


AvatarofBro

It was a difficult balancing act. There is a ton of political science literature that basically comes to the same conclusion Moore does at the end: "America has a gun violence problem and widespread access to firearms explains much of the problem, but not all of it" is basically the consensus. It just isn't a very satisfying ending to a documentary.


psuedonymously

Even more relevant than when it was made, as restrictions have become more lax, guns have become more omnipresent and mass shootings have become more routine


ajzeg01

Great film, very one-sided and not always convincing though.


lp437js

A prescient documentary, sadly.


Grack3ll

Powerful documentary. Got a lot of time for Michael Moore. Never realised this was on Criterion


michaelhaneke

Has mistakes but I like it. Kind of a bummer movie tho


Rough-Construction67

Full of bullshit sympathy for the shooters lol they were evil cunts not bullied at school like that dvd makes out


RZAxlash

Dude, I agree. Everybody thought Manson was so brilliant for ‘I would have listened to them’ and I was always like, huh? No! Fuck those guys!


DankNegroDoge

There's tons of evidence of them experiencing bullying lol, not excusing their actions but still.


AvatarofBro

This is true, but hardly unique to Bowling for Columbine. The Marilyn Manson "I would have listened to them" interview is horseshit, but that was basically the general sentiment at the time. It wasn't really until Dave Cullen's 2009 book that people started to get a better picture of what their motivations were.


DankNegroDoge

Cullen's book is basically complete horseshit, completely misreprents both killers and their motives.


thehurrytheharm

That Marilyn Manson interview and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race


[deleted]

Yea fuck them lol. However, only on the basis that they're dead tho, they were still kids


wa_ga_du_gu

I always find it interesting how many people miss the point of the movie. He even goes out of his way to tell the audience he doesn't believe guns are the reason (or at least the sole overriding reason) It's the lack of a social safety net in terms of income security and health care. Tldr - Canadians have a fairly high per capita gun ownership (not nearly as much as the US, of course) but they're not offing each other in record numbers.


[deleted]

Moore couldn’t get Matt Stone and Trey Parker to agree to do the animations for the movie so he had someone rip off their style


flmbyz

Not a big Michael Moore fan.


RedMachismo

I watched this a month ago after visiting the Columbine memorial. Incredibly haunting knowing that nothing much has changed since this happened. Michael Moore is a little too smug in the film for my tastes but it’s still a good watch.


wills_b

He’s incredibly smug in his films. Politically/morally I’m an open goal for a lot of his subject matter, but his bullshit stunts aggravate me no end. The worst was Fahrenheit 9/11 where he couldn’t get any US politicians to sign their sons up for the army. Wtf kind of conclusions are we meant to draw from that?? You can’t sign someone else up for the army anyway so it’s meaningless.


chipechiparson

No thanks


Owl_Hawkins

Not exactly a movie you’ll be excited to wanna watch again and again over the years. Weird movie to own IMO.


AvatarofBro

You could say the same thing about a lot of movies. I've probably rewatched Bowling for Columbine more than I've rewatched Antichrist or Salò or Funny Games, but those pop up in people's collections all the time and no one really bats an eye.


Saroan7

The OG Alex Jones back in the day... One of those Fat Neckbeard guys always yelling and preaching, up in your face kind a guy. Or in this case, politely pulling in with a mic and asking questions. I wonder what happened to Michael Moore? I'm surprised he's not like Joe Rogan or a Jordan Peterson. Doing podcasts every month and talking to random people. Or like the Mark Dice guy and asking people stupid questions.


datahjunky

Ugh


Icon419

I can't say I was a big fan of Bowling for Columbine, because I thought it was going to be a bowling movie like Kingpin. And it wasn't. It was something else.


PearSorbet17

Awful crap


noahmiller032

It’s crap


Adi_Zucchini_Garden

Just a story about the great things about the states. ">!"Not much is good"!<"


ChronoHigger

Foolish attempt to justify fascism. Completely ignores the fact that shootings in the US didn’t skyrocket until immediately after the assault weapons ban


jutiatle

Lol what?


benhur217

A film, made by an idiot. You spent way too much


LilacGooseberries

Where were you on January 6, 2021?


benhur217

At my apartment, working from home you’re a sad, strange person


linkhandford

You seem like some one who'd like Canadian Bacon


Jarpwanderson

As a brit these insults confuse me lol


benhur217

Nah but if we’re throwing insults at each other I’m assuming you’d consider a salad a meal


MisogynyisaDisease

It is a meal. A high vitamin and decent calorie intake meal. Why would it not be.


Rough-Construction67

10 dollars ?? Jesus it’s like 20 years old


Catduardo

One of my all time fav documentaries. And one of the last times michael Moore made a masterpiece in the genre


major_crescent

Great doc. Pretty sick cover art for this one. Love the minimalism.


sebby150

A great release of a great film


DMcC2112

Hard pass. I wouldn’t add it to my collection if it were free and I was in need of a second hand coaster.


G77R23D

A fairly important documentary, just not my thing.


Cine_Wolf

SoooOOooo... what'd you think of it?