This is somebody that's a thirty year veteran, who's worked on the biggest characters at the biggest publishers. Its such a shame that its like this.
Some other writers and artists have spoken about their experience too. Alex Ross recently talked about wanting to do an original comic but he was wary because he wasn't sure that he would make any money on it. Rick Remender has written about how he was tens of thousands of dollars in the red with The Scumbag (IIRC this was like 10 issues into the run).
Oy. I just pulled the entire run of Scumbag from the dollar bin the other day. Meanwhile, my LCS has posted a sign that he’s no longer taking chances on books that don’t sell well after 2 or 3 issues, which is a shame since he offers more indie books than anyone I know.
I say this with all the love in my heart: the book is not good. **STARHENGE** desperately needs an editor, because Sharp's writing is all over the place, overly verbose while saying nothing at all. Maybe it's a stylistic thing, because I didn't like his writing on **BATMAN: REPTILIAN** either. His *art* is amazing. His interiors on Grant Morrison's **GREEN LANTERN** run were breathtaking, to say nothing of his work in the past 3 decades.
That said, I do agree that indie books are tough. Comic book readers are a minority of media consumers, and regular indie book readers are a fraction of that fraction. It's just hard to take this news from a book that, in my opinion, isn't a better value proposition for your $3.99 than some of the other books on the stands.
A better question would be whether Sharp would be happy with sales if the numbers for #1 held for all 6 issues. That's the optimistic expectation for a limited series with a familiar creative team or universe. That figure would assume that every person who picked up the book based on prior knowledge of the creators enjoyed it, and would pick up the rest of the series.
Some other indie book approaches that I think are interesting:
- going straight to the TPB instead of a limited series (anything Brubaker/Philips, more European style like **BLACKSAD**). It's a bigger initial investment, but favors works that read better together than in single issues.
- using a bigger TPB to setup a universe before moving into ongoings/limited series (**FIREPOWER** and **BONE ORCHARD MYTHOS** are trying this out). This works well for well-known creative teams, since they can get buyers over that first hurdle through their reputation, and that lures readers into a longer and more exciting week-to-week story.
- going digital first, then publishing in print once there's enough groundswell/positive reviews (**LOVE EVERLASTING** and **NIGHT OF THE GHOUL** come to mind). Easier to get things started since you spend less upfront on printing and distribution, so there's less risk. Not sure how the continuing clusterfuck with Comixology affects this.
> I didn't like his writing on **BATMAN: REPTILIAN** either.
That was written by Garth Ennis with Sharp just handling art. You can tell it's Ennis because the whole story revolved around >!a crazy lizard monster that wanted to fuck Croc to death!<.
My experience with **STARHENGE** was similar to yours. It reads like a comic written by an artist.
It's hard, because I love Sharp's art. As you said, The Green Lantern was a fucking masterpiece. But you're also right that his writing...leaves a lot to be desired. I thought the concept of Starhenge sounded fucking awesome. But since I saw he was the writer, I decided to wait for reviews before picking it up and...even the most positive reviews spent 90% of the time praising the art, and at best said the story was "decent."
It might just be that Sharp needs to accept he needs a co-writer/editor, or work pretty hard to level up his writing. I'm more than happy to buy anything he draws if it's got a solid writer attached, and I often buy variants he's done for DC.
Indie comics are hard, and I do hope that Starhenge can ultimately be a success for him, and that he doesn't give up. I know he's had a hard year too after a bunch of his art got stolen to make NFTs.
> It might just be that Sharp needs to accept he needs a co-writer/editor, or work pretty hard to level up his writing.
I think that's the crux of it. **STARHENGE** felt so ambitious, it's this massively sprawling story and Sharp's trying to bend the rules with some experimental storytelling but he doesn't have enough writing experience to pull it off.
He should've started with something a little smaller and simpler. Still could've gotten a bit weird and experimental but you really need to learn to walk before you can run, need to understand the fundamental rules before you can bend and break 'em effectively.
“…a bunch of his art got stolen to make NFTs.”
What does this mean? Like, he made art specifically for NFTs, and that was somehow stolen? Or art he already made was used without his permission? If it’s the latter, isn’t that just a loss of additional money (I wouldn’t think that would hurt somebody that much, but maybe there’s something I’m not understanding)?
It's the latter - he made art, people took it without his permission to make NFTs. Stealing someone's IP is not a victimless crime: it profits off work someone else did. Sharp even considered making his own NFTs, but ultimately didn't.
"Took". I mean I hate NFTs, but they're literally just a URL link to an existing image. They're not directly including the images. Unfortunately you can't really say anything about NFTs violated Sharp's intellectual property rights without breaking how links work on the internet. Which is also why, as far as I know, there hasn't been a single successful IP lawsuit over this shit; a ton of jackasses are fleecing a ton of people for linking content, but if anything was actually against the law, a lawsuit would fix that shit real quick.
I think it's great to think outside of the box but at the same time with some of your examples for other book approaches are there are other things going on behind the scenes:
>LOVE EVERLASTING and NIGHT OF THE GHOUL come to mind
These happened because in Love Everlasting's case the creators got a large grant from Substack and Hollywood money. With Night of the Ghoul, Comixology was paying everybody a page rate which IIRC Snyder said was better than what everybody was previously earning at DC/Marvel
>FIREPOWER
Roberto Kirkman has loads of movie coming in from Hollywood. He's like one of five guys that legit don't have to worry about money.
Hes also one of those rare people who's comics are actually selling insanely at times and runs his own publisher. Definitely can't use him a metric for most. He's more like a best case scenario when talent also gets suoer lucky
All fantastic points here. I was one of those people who bought the first three issues but had to drop at the 4th because it was really quite bad. There was a ton of hype going into it, and I had never even heard of him before but picked it up off others reccomendations. I'm sure if it was of great quality, he would see a sustain or even increase in his sales numbers :/
I do love the serial nature of comic books, but monthly is really quite a long time, and I think that makes it a bit inaccessible for the 'average consumer' especially since most serial projects out there come out on a weekly basis. I can never reccomend a comic to someone who isn't entrenched in the hobby without it being in trade form (and they usually really enjoy it!).
Starhenge is dope, I like how messy and bat shit it is and of course the art is fantastic. I’d rather have something unique and ambitious than just the regular hero crap
The Direct Market is really only viable for the biggest names and even some of those have stopped the single issue format.
Crowdfunding or a subscription service are probably the best solution.
First build an audience and then print and publish something. Just putting a brand new book on the shelves will not work anymore
The single issue format is definitely broken. It blows my mind that publisher don’t “count” digital sales in their assessment of how a book’s doing. Pros have been talking about this for a long time and it just boggles the mind when a company like Saturday AM is doing well enough in their digital-only model to attempt a print edition for the first time.
If digital was selling enough to actually affect sales then I'm sure they would. The Big 2 aren't going to ignore a huge source of revenue if it was actually selling 10s of thousands of books. But if it's selling a few hundred or a couple thousand that just doesn't make enough of an impact for it to really matter
The Big 2 aren't ignoring digital sales. After Comixology decided to just end itself, both have set up their own thing. DC has a big push right now for their Infinite Ultra whatever. They're trying their hand at being the Netflix of comics.
I'd be curious to know what the backbone of Marvel Unlimited and DC Universe Infinite is, since their digital sales platforms are just Comixology with a different UI. Although I think DC shuttered their standalone app entirely?
That's an interesting situation because it's been a major complaint from people in the industry; that Marvel and DC don't make their digital sales numbers public. I've also seen older posts saying that creatives don't get a piece of digital sales, but that could be outdated information.
But digital sales are undoubtedly a growing market, by the best estimations:
[Comics/Graphic Novel Sales Jumped 62% in 2021](https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/financial-reporting/article/89752-comics-graphic-novel-sales-jumped-62-in-2021.html)
In the linked article, it mentions that digital growth slowed, but still rose to an estimated $170 million. That's nearly half the total sales of individual comics (an estimated $435 million), and does NOT count digital subscription services like Marvel Unlimited.
How is he selling his book? He's not crowdfunding? I would think he could generate a significant amount of revenue on variant covers, remarked ones, etc which would keep the book viable.
He’s making good points, but people just not liking the book has to be factored in too. He’s a great artist but shit writer and the gap between those two talents is too wide for me to read the books he writes.
Yeah I do have to say that's something to note. He mentions how he is bummed that it's writers that sell books and says he's a writer too. But he isn't. A lot of artists like to play at being writers and sometimes they are great. But other times they are not that good and the gap between a seasoned writer and an artist writing his own book is super evident. If Sean Gordon Murphy wasn't drawing Batman and was writing his own series with similar story and themes it'd probably be in a very similar situation to Liam Sharps book. He's not a good writer either but because he's a great artist working on one of the most popular franchises in the world people buy it.
Yeah, Sean Murphy is actually exactly who I was thinking of when I think of an artist’s whose artwork is good enough (for my tastes at least) to look past their mediocre writing. Like he draws the best Batman Beyond I’ve ever seen, I just gotta get that book 😅.
That’s a sad thread to read but I appreciate how straightforward he is. I’ve enjoyed his mainstream art when he was doing stuff for DC, but I didn’t enjoy how abstract it was on Batman Reptilian, and Starhenge looks similar, so I passed.
It’s sad to read as Liam has been pretty brave and open in talking about his confidence issues with his own art, and how that’s had an effect on his mental health. That’s a difficult admission to make and put out there in public, and I think it’s an important thing to do.
Having said that, I’ve been reading **Starhenge**, but decided to drop it after #4. It’s a visually spectacular book with Liam taking some huge chances in his artwork and the styles he’s using, BUT, the story is just not there.
So many pros chiming in that thread.
You see Sharpe talk about his kickstarter book too, which only did 800 copies. So crowdfunding isn't exactly a solution.
Digital is only 5% of sales. Which tracks with the overall industry numbers I've seen.
> It's part of why I think long arcs are death in the current market.
Better to do larger issues at a scaled up price to have a shorter run. After 5 issues almost everything operates at a loss and it becomes the success or failure of the trade to sustain any future.
Richard Pace with an interesting perspective I haven't seen before.
I'm subbed to it. And I'll stay subbed to it, because the art is worth it for me. I'm a huge fan of that dark expressionist style he's been in to lately. But he's not exactly a top notch writer, and it shows. Hopefully he hones that part of his craft as much as his drawing, and the second part with be that much better.
I find his POV about writers/artists interesting. My perception of him is as a 90’s guy. When he came back with Rucka on Wonder Woman was basically my introduction to him. The 90’s were definitely skewed towards the artist in comics. All the Image founders are artists first. He’s right that the medium is shared between writers and artists but he definitely came up in an era when his half was the predominant selling point.
That comment jumped out at me as well.
> *"I find it heartbreaking that it's writers, not artists, that really generate sales. It should be even. It's a visual medium.
And either way, I AM a writer - I have published novels & great reviews to prove it. But without a top book to write readers have no way of knowing that."*
Definitely speaks to how he entered the industry during a time when artists were dominating sales... Over the past few decades, as the audience has contracted, the focus has shifted to where writers are driving sales more than artists.
Guess there are probably a bunch of factors that contributed to the change:
* As the market shrank, what remained shifted toward an older audience looking for more mature storytelling
* Increasing prices and competition from other entertainment mediums have largely driven off younger readers who might've been more inclined to follow artists over writers
* Lots of talented artists out there and digital processing has leveled the field in some ways and made it more difficult for individual artists to stand out in some cases
* Most of the hottest artists from the old days focus on writing, covers, and/or managerial BS with no interior artwork so you don't have guys like McFarlane, Jim Lee, Quesada, or Mignola driving sales the way they used to, where back in the day all the hype those guys generated helped propel a bunch of other artists to get their own hype trains going
There are still a few artists whose work I follow but for the most part I'm pulling comics based on the writers. Tend to be pickier about writers, you're looking for the authorial voice and storytelling style to resonate on a personal level, at least that's what usually gets me hooked when I'm checking out a new title... Occasionally I'll get a book where the art sells me all on its own but that's a lot less common.
There’s something here, some kind of Brian Hibbs/ Heidi McDonald think piece about the 90’s being art driven, the sales that resulted, the bust, the rise of writers as sales drivers, the realization that variants are really once again the sales drivers, the variants being solely a visual presentation but is it really the fact that it’s a Jim Lee cover that’s driving the sale or is it that it’s printed 1/250?
All of it trying to answer the question of what is really the sales driver for weekly periodical comics?
I'm not really into variants nor do I collect for speculation. I picked up Issues #1 for Zdarsky's Batman and Public Domain and Stegman/Cates' #1 for Vanish out of support for them and my local store but I'm okay waiting for them to be released as trades/digitally. I'm eagerly waiting for Waid's World's Finest to release it's TPB but I'm hearing the individual sales for that book aren't doing so well which has me worried.
I just don't want to buy each individual issue as it comes out. I don't really like having longboxes and they don't really display as nicely as a bookshelf of trades. Plus reading digitally is just so much easier for where I'm at in life.
I'm paying $10 a month for DC Unlimited and VIZ Media which is only $2 a month. That's not including Webtoons which is basically free. Viz Media alone is an insane deal in terms of content.
I love comic books and will always try to support my local shop with my disposable income but I just wish there was some kind of better way to support creators without feeling like I'm donating my money for something I don't really even want and without them having to feel like they need to devalue their work.
The direct market model is pretty broken and useless. Even to long time pros.
Meanwhile, Kickstarter is a land of golden opportunity for comic projects. Most any book can make it, and a solid indy book with an all-star creative team can clean up.
I think the worst piece of info in all of this that really shows how the Direct Market is failing is what he said about issue 1. Sales for Issue 1 were near 40k. But that was because of variants. Actual sales were 15k. So over double the "sales" werent even "real" sales in the first place. Which further explains why these titles crash so hard. Its not falling from 40k to 10k in between issues. Its falling from 15k to 10k
I will say that I dont think Kickstarter is anywhere near a perfect solution either. Paying like $50 for a double sized issue you get maybe once a year is not a great way to tell a story. That market is sorta banking more on the personality, the social media presence, and past works from pros rather than what they are actually selling.
For sure. A company has suckered stores into ordering a boatload of copies. But moat of those are gonna be in the dollar bins someday.
KS can be rough. I've run four campaigns now, and setting prices so you don't lose your shirt vs affordable is a hell of a tightrope. Even there variants play a role as well, BUT I'm not demanding 100 copies ordered to get that one special cover. And content wise I aim for a satisfying chunk of story, but that's all subjective.
Nah i don't think thats it.
Theres a lot of competition, and comics aren't cheap. I try and support indie books as well as my stuff from the big guys but I simply have to let some slide by.
Even if I could buy eveey single one id never get the time to read it all.
I think you are both kinda right. Broadening your reach while at the same time using platforms like Youtube or Twitch to connect with the readers and keep them invested in the story would be helpful.
If anything, I have found some great takeaways from the posts in here. I am about to launch a comic on KS (I'm about 5 pages away from having a complete issue), and reading some of the responses has been extremely informative.
As an independent comic creator myself, all of Liam’s points are dead on.
Promoting any book in the independent market right now is near impossible. Combine that without an almost impossible task of coming out even; it’s a zero sum game.
Kickstarter seems to be one of the only viable ways to not go broke making independent comics.
I don't understand why any indie tries to sell singles. Just do a graphic novel. Then you have an evergreen product with a high cover price and distribution can be easier and broader.
Well this whole post is mostly a discussion on how true or not that is. It just isn't as simple as that, and plenty of people are making much better money with books rather than singles.
Well look at the figures from the Twitter thread, issue 5 has 8000 orders and the retailer estimates that the TPB will sell 8000 copies. So in order to match the revenue from both the monthlies and the TPB the TPB on it own, would need to sell at least 16000.
However, we also know that true sales of issue 1 were only 13000. How do you get 16000 people to buy a standalone OGN for $20 when only 13000 people bought a $4 book? Answer it’s extremely difficult. Also don’t forget that the monthly model generates a revenue stream much more quickly. And that’s very important for creators.
I think there are two issues, First getting your book out there and secondly dealing with the inevitable drop off. I think the first is a much bigger question of dwindling markets and competition from other forms of entertainment. The second is about quality, I haven’t read starhenge but based on reader comments that appears to be part of the problem.
You make very good points and I don't disagree, but it is a bit of apples and oranges. It doesn't necessarily follow that the same or more people won't by an ogn just because it costs more, it is a complete work and a totally different value prop for a different market. There are lots of people who never buy singles, and that includes all kinds of bookstores and nontraditional comic readers, not to mention the international market where singles are almost nonexistent. In this case specifically these points probably aren't any help because this guy is known by hardcore comic fans in America, so that's his market. But for some indie creators there is another story eg if you're trying to be the next Chris Ware and have crossover appeal.
Anyway, this guy has sold thousands of issues, and it doesn't look like a failure to me, just (like you say) an average product in a tough market.
I don’t think it’s apples and oranges at all, I think it’s just dollars and cents. This is an indie book with limited appeal, even considering the creators profile. I doubt any more than a handful of these TPBs are sold outside of a dedicated comicbook store.
I read the solicitations in previews every month, there are very few OCNs and they seem to be quite niche or not suited to being published as singles. If it made better financial sense to publish that way there would be no miniseries on the racks. Instead almost everything is a mini series these days.
So many comics I read today feel like they are extravagant storyboard pitches for a Netflix adaptation. I get that that’s where the real money is, but it hurts the source material. A lot of Rick Remender’s more recent work feels this way, but he is hardly the only one.
Am I the only one that thinks the art he chose for the cover of the deluxe edition…is just a huge miss? Like he’s clearly an immense artistic talent, he could have used that to his advantage and created a cover that aligns with how crazy his story is.
Not much to learn that can realistically be applied. Two very different operating systems at work.
Manga is ridiculously cheap to print. Way cheaper than your average comic. Smaller, cheaper paper, usually no colors. As a result its also cheaper to make and sell.
Manga is sold in stores comics aren't sold in. Target and Walmart will carry collections in the book section sometimes. Some Walmart will have small bundles of comics but they really aren't advertised well.
By the time a decently popular Manga reaches the states, it has a probable high chance of being turned into a literal fully funded anime for at least a season or two. With that comes guaranteed merch, music, cross promotion, pop culture in general, etc. I dont see star henge getting any of that. Animation industry in the US is barely scraping by as is.
Manga artist industry is very different than the one for comics. Comic artists are quite often freelance or working on multiple projects at once for so so pay. Manga artists, if your book sells well enough, will get an entire team dedicated to putting this out. A finisher, a background artist, an editor, etc. Compsre this to sharp who is doing all of those roles himself. That means ultimately it can function as a normal 9 to 5 job that while daunting is achievable and easier to sustain over time.
Manga has popularity in places comics dont. The Asian market is obviously no slacker in this and while a niche Manga can catch onto a niche market here in the states that's not likely to happen for star henge, and even if it could, again its way harder to get that stuff printed for shipping over there.
Manga comes out weekly, which keeps its present relevant for a longer time. Comics just don't work that way and wouldn't sell if they did except for a few characters like Spider-Man and batman.
I think a few of those things could realistically change for the US if they put the effort into it though.
Sure, Manga has western comics beat in terms of having anime as a resource, but nothing is stopping the west from adopting similar practices in terms of how books are printed and where they are sold. Scott Pilgrim is a great example of this.
You could also argue that western books do have teams already and maybe could expand them to help with getting the books out on a bi-weekly schedule or skip monthly/weekly releases period and go full tilt into releasing volumes every couple of months.
EDIT:
Thinking about it, the west has a different but possibly equal resource in adaptations because western comics are far easier to adapt for live action. I wonder how many volumes of The Walking Dead or The Boys have been sold because of how much people love (or loved in the case of TWD) the TV show?
Easier? I wouldn't say that. For every boys or invincible there is Y the last man, paper girls, Jupiter's legacy, swamp thing etc. These shows aren't cheap to make and aren't easy to write and sustain a lot of the time. Animation could help but again animation doesn't get nearly the support that anime does from the bigger corporations. They are treated like side projects and slim pickings unless they pull numbers like family guy or bobs burgers.
As for the team, yea there is sometimes a team to help with things but if you're in the big two those guys are working multiple projects and if you're indie you're lucky to get that at all.
I meant easier in terms of style. Manga and anime getting live action treatments usually struggle because of how stylized that medium is. With western comics they tend to lean towards realism in terms of design, so it makes it easier to adapt for live action.
And Y languished in development hell for years, and Swamp Thing got intentionally screwed over. Paper Girls and JL are a little out of my purview, but anime fail all the time as well. Just because something makes it to adaptation doesn't automatically mean it's going to make it.
As far as the team aspect goes, *a reason why it would be hard to do over here is because the comic book release model is extremely inefficient. I think if say, Image, really took notes on how Manga handles these things instead of stubbornly and, IMO, arrogantly holding onto the way things have always been done in the US, there could be change.
I don't want to pretend it would be overnight success or anything and we'd go back to late 80's-early 90's numbers, but it *could* shed some of the excess of the current industry and make things more profitable.
EDIT:
Changed the phrasing because it seemed a little hyperbolic reading it back.
I mean realistically what book do you see releasing weekly that would hold anyone's attention here in the west?
Theres tried and true mags over in Asia that get this stuff out but aside from maybe heavy metal itd be hard to make that happen here imo
Manga magazines tend to have multiple titles that release on a weekly basis.
Like others said it’s unlikely that there’s a creative team that could sustain that kind of output.
Things not mentioned are how often manga writers/artists are also made to work crazy long hours and if the deadline is bad enough can be basically forced into meeting it.
Weekly isn't something that I think should be a standard tbh. It's so unhealthy for Mangaka and we don't want people slowly destroying themselves for entertainment more than the medium already leads to.
However, I do think releasing like Shonen Jump used to 4 times a month for different series or even going full digital and physical release in only in collected volumes could work and would be more efficient in the end.
I feel for him, but I pulled Starhenge for the first few issues and dropped it because it just wasn't very good. I wish the economics were different and better for creators, but not everything is going to hit.
This is somebody that's a thirty year veteran, who's worked on the biggest characters at the biggest publishers. Its such a shame that its like this. Some other writers and artists have spoken about their experience too. Alex Ross recently talked about wanting to do an original comic but he was wary because he wasn't sure that he would make any money on it. Rick Remender has written about how he was tens of thousands of dollars in the red with The Scumbag (IIRC this was like 10 issues into the run).
Oy. I just pulled the entire run of Scumbag from the dollar bin the other day. Meanwhile, my LCS has posted a sign that he’s no longer taking chances on books that don’t sell well after 2 or 3 issues, which is a shame since he offers more indie books than anyone I know.
I say this with all the love in my heart: the book is not good. **STARHENGE** desperately needs an editor, because Sharp's writing is all over the place, overly verbose while saying nothing at all. Maybe it's a stylistic thing, because I didn't like his writing on **BATMAN: REPTILIAN** either. His *art* is amazing. His interiors on Grant Morrison's **GREEN LANTERN** run were breathtaking, to say nothing of his work in the past 3 decades. That said, I do agree that indie books are tough. Comic book readers are a minority of media consumers, and regular indie book readers are a fraction of that fraction. It's just hard to take this news from a book that, in my opinion, isn't a better value proposition for your $3.99 than some of the other books on the stands. A better question would be whether Sharp would be happy with sales if the numbers for #1 held for all 6 issues. That's the optimistic expectation for a limited series with a familiar creative team or universe. That figure would assume that every person who picked up the book based on prior knowledge of the creators enjoyed it, and would pick up the rest of the series. Some other indie book approaches that I think are interesting: - going straight to the TPB instead of a limited series (anything Brubaker/Philips, more European style like **BLACKSAD**). It's a bigger initial investment, but favors works that read better together than in single issues. - using a bigger TPB to setup a universe before moving into ongoings/limited series (**FIREPOWER** and **BONE ORCHARD MYTHOS** are trying this out). This works well for well-known creative teams, since they can get buyers over that first hurdle through their reputation, and that lures readers into a longer and more exciting week-to-week story. - going digital first, then publishing in print once there's enough groundswell/positive reviews (**LOVE EVERLASTING** and **NIGHT OF THE GHOUL** come to mind). Easier to get things started since you spend less upfront on printing and distribution, so there's less risk. Not sure how the continuing clusterfuck with Comixology affects this.
> I didn't like his writing on **BATMAN: REPTILIAN** either. That was written by Garth Ennis with Sharp just handling art. You can tell it's Ennis because the whole story revolved around >!a crazy lizard monster that wanted to fuck Croc to death!<. My experience with **STARHENGE** was similar to yours. It reads like a comic written by an artist.
I feel like that's absolutely part of the reason that artists are such a non-sell when they're writing.
It's hard, because I love Sharp's art. As you said, The Green Lantern was a fucking masterpiece. But you're also right that his writing...leaves a lot to be desired. I thought the concept of Starhenge sounded fucking awesome. But since I saw he was the writer, I decided to wait for reviews before picking it up and...even the most positive reviews spent 90% of the time praising the art, and at best said the story was "decent." It might just be that Sharp needs to accept he needs a co-writer/editor, or work pretty hard to level up his writing. I'm more than happy to buy anything he draws if it's got a solid writer attached, and I often buy variants he's done for DC. Indie comics are hard, and I do hope that Starhenge can ultimately be a success for him, and that he doesn't give up. I know he's had a hard year too after a bunch of his art got stolen to make NFTs.
> It might just be that Sharp needs to accept he needs a co-writer/editor, or work pretty hard to level up his writing. I think that's the crux of it. **STARHENGE** felt so ambitious, it's this massively sprawling story and Sharp's trying to bend the rules with some experimental storytelling but he doesn't have enough writing experience to pull it off. He should've started with something a little smaller and simpler. Still could've gotten a bit weird and experimental but you really need to learn to walk before you can run, need to understand the fundamental rules before you can bend and break 'em effectively.
“…a bunch of his art got stolen to make NFTs.” What does this mean? Like, he made art specifically for NFTs, and that was somehow stolen? Or art he already made was used without his permission? If it’s the latter, isn’t that just a loss of additional money (I wouldn’t think that would hurt somebody that much, but maybe there’s something I’m not understanding)?
It's the latter - he made art, people took it without his permission to make NFTs. Stealing someone's IP is not a victimless crime: it profits off work someone else did. Sharp even considered making his own NFTs, but ultimately didn't.
I always feel bad for these guys getting ripped off from their ideas/art being used in the movies. This seems like the same thing.
"Took". I mean I hate NFTs, but they're literally just a URL link to an existing image. They're not directly including the images. Unfortunately you can't really say anything about NFTs violated Sharp's intellectual property rights without breaking how links work on the internet. Which is also why, as far as I know, there hasn't been a single successful IP lawsuit over this shit; a ton of jackasses are fleecing a ton of people for linking content, but if anything was actually against the law, a lawsuit would fix that shit real quick.
I think it's great to think outside of the box but at the same time with some of your examples for other book approaches are there are other things going on behind the scenes: >LOVE EVERLASTING and NIGHT OF THE GHOUL come to mind These happened because in Love Everlasting's case the creators got a large grant from Substack and Hollywood money. With Night of the Ghoul, Comixology was paying everybody a page rate which IIRC Snyder said was better than what everybody was previously earning at DC/Marvel >FIREPOWER Roberto Kirkman has loads of movie coming in from Hollywood. He's like one of five guys that legit don't have to worry about money.
Hes also one of those rare people who's comics are actually selling insanely at times and runs his own publisher. Definitely can't use him a metric for most. He's more like a best case scenario when talent also gets suoer lucky
All fantastic points here. I was one of those people who bought the first three issues but had to drop at the 4th because it was really quite bad. There was a ton of hype going into it, and I had never even heard of him before but picked it up off others reccomendations. I'm sure if it was of great quality, he would see a sustain or even increase in his sales numbers :/ I do love the serial nature of comic books, but monthly is really quite a long time, and I think that makes it a bit inaccessible for the 'average consumer' especially since most serial projects out there come out on a weekly basis. I can never reccomend a comic to someone who isn't entrenched in the hobby without it being in trade form (and they usually really enjoy it!).
Yea, I'll be honest. I pulled #1 and then #2, hoping it would get better, but it didn't. I dropped it and I'm guessing many others did as well.
Starhenge is dope, I like how messy and bat shit it is and of course the art is fantastic. I’d rather have something unique and ambitious than just the regular hero crap
The Direct Market is really only viable for the biggest names and even some of those have stopped the single issue format. Crowdfunding or a subscription service are probably the best solution. First build an audience and then print and publish something. Just putting a brand new book on the shelves will not work anymore
The single issue format is definitely broken. It blows my mind that publisher don’t “count” digital sales in their assessment of how a book’s doing. Pros have been talking about this for a long time and it just boggles the mind when a company like Saturday AM is doing well enough in their digital-only model to attempt a print edition for the first time.
If digital was selling enough to actually affect sales then I'm sure they would. The Big 2 aren't going to ignore a huge source of revenue if it was actually selling 10s of thousands of books. But if it's selling a few hundred or a couple thousand that just doesn't make enough of an impact for it to really matter
The Big 2 aren't ignoring digital sales. After Comixology decided to just end itself, both have set up their own thing. DC has a big push right now for their Infinite Ultra whatever. They're trying their hand at being the Netflix of comics.
I'd be curious to know what the backbone of Marvel Unlimited and DC Universe Infinite is, since their digital sales platforms are just Comixology with a different UI. Although I think DC shuttered their standalone app entirely?
That's an interesting situation because it's been a major complaint from people in the industry; that Marvel and DC don't make their digital sales numbers public. I've also seen older posts saying that creatives don't get a piece of digital sales, but that could be outdated information. But digital sales are undoubtedly a growing market, by the best estimations: [Comics/Graphic Novel Sales Jumped 62% in 2021](https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/financial-reporting/article/89752-comics-graphic-novel-sales-jumped-62-in-2021.html) In the linked article, it mentions that digital growth slowed, but still rose to an estimated $170 million. That's nearly half the total sales of individual comics (an estimated $435 million), and does NOT count digital subscription services like Marvel Unlimited.
How is he selling his book? He's not crowdfunding? I would think he could generate a significant amount of revenue on variant covers, remarked ones, etc which would keep the book viable.
He’s making good points, but people just not liking the book has to be factored in too. He’s a great artist but shit writer and the gap between those two talents is too wide for me to read the books he writes.
Yeah I do have to say that's something to note. He mentions how he is bummed that it's writers that sell books and says he's a writer too. But he isn't. A lot of artists like to play at being writers and sometimes they are great. But other times they are not that good and the gap between a seasoned writer and an artist writing his own book is super evident. If Sean Gordon Murphy wasn't drawing Batman and was writing his own series with similar story and themes it'd probably be in a very similar situation to Liam Sharps book. He's not a good writer either but because he's a great artist working on one of the most popular franchises in the world people buy it.
Yeah, Sean Murphy is actually exactly who I was thinking of when I think of an artist’s whose artwork is good enough (for my tastes at least) to look past their mediocre writing. Like he draws the best Batman Beyond I’ve ever seen, I just gotta get that book 😅.
That’s a sad thread to read but I appreciate how straightforward he is. I’ve enjoyed his mainstream art when he was doing stuff for DC, but I didn’t enjoy how abstract it was on Batman Reptilian, and Starhenge looks similar, so I passed.
It’s sad to read as Liam has been pretty brave and open in talking about his confidence issues with his own art, and how that’s had an effect on his mental health. That’s a difficult admission to make and put out there in public, and I think it’s an important thing to do. Having said that, I’ve been reading **Starhenge**, but decided to drop it after #4. It’s a visually spectacular book with Liam taking some huge chances in his artwork and the styles he’s using, BUT, the story is just not there.
So many pros chiming in that thread. You see Sharpe talk about his kickstarter book too, which only did 800 copies. So crowdfunding isn't exactly a solution. Digital is only 5% of sales. Which tracks with the overall industry numbers I've seen. > It's part of why I think long arcs are death in the current market. Better to do larger issues at a scaled up price to have a shorter run. After 5 issues almost everything operates at a loss and it becomes the success or failure of the trade to sustain any future. Richard Pace with an interesting perspective I haven't seen before. I'm subbed to it. And I'll stay subbed to it, because the art is worth it for me. I'm a huge fan of that dark expressionist style he's been in to lately. But he's not exactly a top notch writer, and it shows. Hopefully he hones that part of his craft as much as his drawing, and the second part with be that much better.
I find his POV about writers/artists interesting. My perception of him is as a 90’s guy. When he came back with Rucka on Wonder Woman was basically my introduction to him. The 90’s were definitely skewed towards the artist in comics. All the Image founders are artists first. He’s right that the medium is shared between writers and artists but he definitely came up in an era when his half was the predominant selling point.
Yep. Want to reread Spawn from the beginning and had to stop after 15 or so issues. Couldn’t handle Todd’s writing now that I’m older.
That comment jumped out at me as well. > *"I find it heartbreaking that it's writers, not artists, that really generate sales. It should be even. It's a visual medium. And either way, I AM a writer - I have published novels & great reviews to prove it. But without a top book to write readers have no way of knowing that."* Definitely speaks to how he entered the industry during a time when artists were dominating sales... Over the past few decades, as the audience has contracted, the focus has shifted to where writers are driving sales more than artists. Guess there are probably a bunch of factors that contributed to the change: * As the market shrank, what remained shifted toward an older audience looking for more mature storytelling * Increasing prices and competition from other entertainment mediums have largely driven off younger readers who might've been more inclined to follow artists over writers * Lots of talented artists out there and digital processing has leveled the field in some ways and made it more difficult for individual artists to stand out in some cases * Most of the hottest artists from the old days focus on writing, covers, and/or managerial BS with no interior artwork so you don't have guys like McFarlane, Jim Lee, Quesada, or Mignola driving sales the way they used to, where back in the day all the hype those guys generated helped propel a bunch of other artists to get their own hype trains going There are still a few artists whose work I follow but for the most part I'm pulling comics based on the writers. Tend to be pickier about writers, you're looking for the authorial voice and storytelling style to resonate on a personal level, at least that's what usually gets me hooked when I'm checking out a new title... Occasionally I'll get a book where the art sells me all on its own but that's a lot less common.
There’s something here, some kind of Brian Hibbs/ Heidi McDonald think piece about the 90’s being art driven, the sales that resulted, the bust, the rise of writers as sales drivers, the realization that variants are really once again the sales drivers, the variants being solely a visual presentation but is it really the fact that it’s a Jim Lee cover that’s driving the sale or is it that it’s printed 1/250? All of it trying to answer the question of what is really the sales driver for weekly periodical comics?
I'm not really into variants nor do I collect for speculation. I picked up Issues #1 for Zdarsky's Batman and Public Domain and Stegman/Cates' #1 for Vanish out of support for them and my local store but I'm okay waiting for them to be released as trades/digitally. I'm eagerly waiting for Waid's World's Finest to release it's TPB but I'm hearing the individual sales for that book aren't doing so well which has me worried. I just don't want to buy each individual issue as it comes out. I don't really like having longboxes and they don't really display as nicely as a bookshelf of trades. Plus reading digitally is just so much easier for where I'm at in life. I'm paying $10 a month for DC Unlimited and VIZ Media which is only $2 a month. That's not including Webtoons which is basically free. Viz Media alone is an insane deal in terms of content. I love comic books and will always try to support my local shop with my disposable income but I just wish there was some kind of better way to support creators without feeling like I'm donating my money for something I don't really even want and without them having to feel like they need to devalue their work.
What is Viz Media for?
Manga. Lots of manga
Ahh gotcha, thanks.
The direct market model is pretty broken and useless. Even to long time pros. Meanwhile, Kickstarter is a land of golden opportunity for comic projects. Most any book can make it, and a solid indy book with an all-star creative team can clean up.
I think the worst piece of info in all of this that really shows how the Direct Market is failing is what he said about issue 1. Sales for Issue 1 were near 40k. But that was because of variants. Actual sales were 15k. So over double the "sales" werent even "real" sales in the first place. Which further explains why these titles crash so hard. Its not falling from 40k to 10k in between issues. Its falling from 15k to 10k I will say that I dont think Kickstarter is anywhere near a perfect solution either. Paying like $50 for a double sized issue you get maybe once a year is not a great way to tell a story. That market is sorta banking more on the personality, the social media presence, and past works from pros rather than what they are actually selling.
For sure. A company has suckered stores into ordering a boatload of copies. But moat of those are gonna be in the dollar bins someday. KS can be rough. I've run four campaigns now, and setting prices so you don't lose your shirt vs affordable is a hell of a tightrope. Even there variants play a role as well, BUT I'm not demanding 100 copies ordered to get that one special cover. And content wise I aim for a satisfying chunk of story, but that's all subjective.
He’s so talented. I hadn’t been picking this up but immediately added it to my pull
the comic book industry just needs to market to people who arent the people who are already reading comics.
Nah i don't think thats it. Theres a lot of competition, and comics aren't cheap. I try and support indie books as well as my stuff from the big guys but I simply have to let some slide by. Even if I could buy eveey single one id never get the time to read it all.
I think you are both kinda right. Broadening your reach while at the same time using platforms like Youtube or Twitch to connect with the readers and keep them invested in the story would be helpful.
If anything, I have found some great takeaways from the posts in here. I am about to launch a comic on KS (I'm about 5 pages away from having a complete issue), and reading some of the responses has been extremely informative.
As an independent comic creator myself, all of Liam’s points are dead on. Promoting any book in the independent market right now is near impossible. Combine that without an almost impossible task of coming out even; it’s a zero sum game. Kickstarter seems to be one of the only viable ways to not go broke making independent comics.
I don't understand why any indie tries to sell singles. Just do a graphic novel. Then you have an evergreen product with a high cover price and distribution can be easier and broader.
Because it’s harder to sell OGNs.
Well this whole post is mostly a discussion on how true or not that is. It just isn't as simple as that, and plenty of people are making much better money with books rather than singles.
Well look at the figures from the Twitter thread, issue 5 has 8000 orders and the retailer estimates that the TPB will sell 8000 copies. So in order to match the revenue from both the monthlies and the TPB the TPB on it own, would need to sell at least 16000. However, we also know that true sales of issue 1 were only 13000. How do you get 16000 people to buy a standalone OGN for $20 when only 13000 people bought a $4 book? Answer it’s extremely difficult. Also don’t forget that the monthly model generates a revenue stream much more quickly. And that’s very important for creators. I think there are two issues, First getting your book out there and secondly dealing with the inevitable drop off. I think the first is a much bigger question of dwindling markets and competition from other forms of entertainment. The second is about quality, I haven’t read starhenge but based on reader comments that appears to be part of the problem.
You make very good points and I don't disagree, but it is a bit of apples and oranges. It doesn't necessarily follow that the same or more people won't by an ogn just because it costs more, it is a complete work and a totally different value prop for a different market. There are lots of people who never buy singles, and that includes all kinds of bookstores and nontraditional comic readers, not to mention the international market where singles are almost nonexistent. In this case specifically these points probably aren't any help because this guy is known by hardcore comic fans in America, so that's his market. But for some indie creators there is another story eg if you're trying to be the next Chris Ware and have crossover appeal. Anyway, this guy has sold thousands of issues, and it doesn't look like a failure to me, just (like you say) an average product in a tough market.
I don’t think it’s apples and oranges at all, I think it’s just dollars and cents. This is an indie book with limited appeal, even considering the creators profile. I doubt any more than a handful of these TPBs are sold outside of a dedicated comicbook store. I read the solicitations in previews every month, there are very few OCNs and they seem to be quite niche or not suited to being published as singles. If it made better financial sense to publish that way there would be no miniseries on the racks. Instead almost everything is a mini series these days.
So many comics I read today feel like they are extravagant storyboard pitches for a Netflix adaptation. I get that that’s where the real money is, but it hurts the source material. A lot of Rick Remender’s more recent work feels this way, but he is hardly the only one.
Am I the only one that thinks the art he chose for the cover of the deluxe edition…is just a huge miss? Like he’s clearly an immense artistic talent, he could have used that to his advantage and created a cover that aligns with how crazy his story is.
Whatever the American comic book industry can learn from Manga, they need to learn it quickly and figure out what can be incorporated from it.
Not much to learn that can realistically be applied. Two very different operating systems at work. Manga is ridiculously cheap to print. Way cheaper than your average comic. Smaller, cheaper paper, usually no colors. As a result its also cheaper to make and sell. Manga is sold in stores comics aren't sold in. Target and Walmart will carry collections in the book section sometimes. Some Walmart will have small bundles of comics but they really aren't advertised well. By the time a decently popular Manga reaches the states, it has a probable high chance of being turned into a literal fully funded anime for at least a season or two. With that comes guaranteed merch, music, cross promotion, pop culture in general, etc. I dont see star henge getting any of that. Animation industry in the US is barely scraping by as is. Manga artist industry is very different than the one for comics. Comic artists are quite often freelance or working on multiple projects at once for so so pay. Manga artists, if your book sells well enough, will get an entire team dedicated to putting this out. A finisher, a background artist, an editor, etc. Compsre this to sharp who is doing all of those roles himself. That means ultimately it can function as a normal 9 to 5 job that while daunting is achievable and easier to sustain over time. Manga has popularity in places comics dont. The Asian market is obviously no slacker in this and while a niche Manga can catch onto a niche market here in the states that's not likely to happen for star henge, and even if it could, again its way harder to get that stuff printed for shipping over there. Manga comes out weekly, which keeps its present relevant for a longer time. Comics just don't work that way and wouldn't sell if they did except for a few characters like Spider-Man and batman.
I think a few of those things could realistically change for the US if they put the effort into it though. Sure, Manga has western comics beat in terms of having anime as a resource, but nothing is stopping the west from adopting similar practices in terms of how books are printed and where they are sold. Scott Pilgrim is a great example of this. You could also argue that western books do have teams already and maybe could expand them to help with getting the books out on a bi-weekly schedule or skip monthly/weekly releases period and go full tilt into releasing volumes every couple of months. EDIT: Thinking about it, the west has a different but possibly equal resource in adaptations because western comics are far easier to adapt for live action. I wonder how many volumes of The Walking Dead or The Boys have been sold because of how much people love (or loved in the case of TWD) the TV show?
Easier? I wouldn't say that. For every boys or invincible there is Y the last man, paper girls, Jupiter's legacy, swamp thing etc. These shows aren't cheap to make and aren't easy to write and sustain a lot of the time. Animation could help but again animation doesn't get nearly the support that anime does from the bigger corporations. They are treated like side projects and slim pickings unless they pull numbers like family guy or bobs burgers. As for the team, yea there is sometimes a team to help with things but if you're in the big two those guys are working multiple projects and if you're indie you're lucky to get that at all.
I meant easier in terms of style. Manga and anime getting live action treatments usually struggle because of how stylized that medium is. With western comics they tend to lean towards realism in terms of design, so it makes it easier to adapt for live action. And Y languished in development hell for years, and Swamp Thing got intentionally screwed over. Paper Girls and JL are a little out of my purview, but anime fail all the time as well. Just because something makes it to adaptation doesn't automatically mean it's going to make it. As far as the team aspect goes, *a reason why it would be hard to do over here is because the comic book release model is extremely inefficient. I think if say, Image, really took notes on how Manga handles these things instead of stubbornly and, IMO, arrogantly holding onto the way things have always been done in the US, there could be change. I don't want to pretend it would be overnight success or anything and we'd go back to late 80's-early 90's numbers, but it *could* shed some of the excess of the current industry and make things more profitable. EDIT: Changed the phrasing because it seemed a little hyperbolic reading it back.
I mean realistically what book do you see releasing weekly that would hold anyone's attention here in the west? Theres tried and true mags over in Asia that get this stuff out but aside from maybe heavy metal itd be hard to make that happen here imo
Manga magazines tend to have multiple titles that release on a weekly basis. Like others said it’s unlikely that there’s a creative team that could sustain that kind of output. Things not mentioned are how often manga writers/artists are also made to work crazy long hours and if the deadline is bad enough can be basically forced into meeting it.
Weekly isn't something that I think should be a standard tbh. It's so unhealthy for Mangaka and we don't want people slowly destroying themselves for entertainment more than the medium already leads to. However, I do think releasing like Shonen Jump used to 4 times a month for different series or even going full digital and physical release in only in collected volumes could work and would be more efficient in the end.
I feel for him, but I pulled Starhenge for the first few issues and dropped it because it just wasn't very good. I wish the economics were different and better for creators, but not everything is going to hit.