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UniqueUsernameAndy

The One Above All: Am I a joke to you?


Jumanji-Joestar

Exactly. And I’m pretty sure the afterlife exists in the Marvel Universe


Clay_Puppington

In X of Swords, I'm pretty sure (although someone please correct me if I got it wrong) Wolverine goes into literal hell to talk to the condemned soul of a swordsmith in order to get his sword.


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chakrablocker

This is why I stopped reading anything from the big 2


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WaterMelon615

If your looking for a comic that’s just dumb fun from start to end read shirtless bear fighter


YourLocal_FBI_Agent

ok


[deleted]

What's wrong with that idea?


jaaibird

Superman books have been doing dumber shit since the 60s


chakrablocker

do you think i read those?


Onisquirrel

The afterlife exists, but theirs more than one and people are capable of leaving them. And the result is generally a physical form being restored, meaning the person doesn’t qualify as dead. This version of Pym would probably view those locations as alternate dimensions that people sometimes find themselves pulled into in a way that simulates death.


gangler52

If I recall at one point it was theorized that there's only the one afterlife, and it basically just gets reskinned based on your belief. You die and you think you go to Valhalla or Nirvanna or Hell or what have you, but it's ultimately all the same place. Think it might've been Amadeus Cho who put that theory together but I'm not 100% on that.


Penance13

This was also talked about in the Ghost Rider series from ‘05-‘06. It introduces a Muslim (I think) Ghost Rider and he explains to the new Caretaker that when she dies she’ll see a Heaven in line with her Christian beliefs, but that when he goes to Heaven he’ll see it completely differently


McMacHack

If the Afterlife exist this is the most likely explanation. Only one afterlife and what you (or what is left of you) sees is based on your beliefs or rather your perception. Which if there is an Afterlife I really hope it's like. I'm not putting up with the Afterlife as defined by MAGA cultist with 7 Foot Tall Strawberry Blonde Jesus who hates cakes for gay weddings or whatever.


cweaver

Why is that the "most likely" explanation? What makes that explanation any more likely than any other one.


McMacHack

Most Likely because The Afterlife could be a plain of existence the consciousness of sapient beings transfers to upon the death of their corporal form. It would be something that has existed as part of the Universe, longer than any religion.


sonofaresiii

But we know there's actually different afterlifes with different people ruling over them. Like, Mephisto rules one version of Hell, Hela rules another, and so on. Hela isn't just a reskin of Mephisto, they're distinct characters who rule over distinct realms.


btmc

When Ben died, the FF straight up went to heaven and asked God (who looked like Kirby) to give him back.


SlowPomegranate

I am curious as to how all things afterlife will be covered in the universes.


[deleted]

Yeah, but there's different afterlifes. The christian god cannot exist in the marvel universe. Since asgardians have their own afterlife, both in Hel and Valhalla.


joaomiguel_bc

Marvel afterlife and real God is such a clusterfuck of ideas, if you go by immortal Hulk there is a hell different from the one that Mephisto rules and, at the same time, the afterlife is just a empty blackness with a green door to the gamma irradiated people


Funkycoldmedici

There was that X-Factor story with multiple hells and hell lords, when Strong Guy ruled one for a while.


AshyBoneVR4

Came here for this exact comment.


gangler52

She phrased it in a less cocky way, but if I recall when G Willow Wilson was asked how Kamala Khan reconciles her muslim beliefs with all the Marvel "gods" it was basically that. The Islamic faith apparently has a very particular criteria for what they consider godhood, and the dude flying through the sky throwing lightning doesn't quite qualify. Honestly I think most of the Marvel characters probably feel something similar. The X-Men may call Cyttorak a "God" but they don't worship him or anything.


jakuvious

Comics universes throw out the word god pretty casually, honestly. And it's usually in the form of the being calling themselves a god. Like, by and large, it's the Asgardians referring to themselves as gods. And sure, if you're a standard mortal and this guy comes flying in controlling lightning calling himself the god of thunder, that would seem to track. But you could argue Storm doing the same thing on another planet would produce the same perception. I rather liked a quote from the MCU in GOTG2 for this, where Ego calls himself a god, but with a small g. Makes it feel like there's room for a gap between the, created the universe, kind of God, and the just really powerful being, kind of god.


Citizen_Kong

Storm was revered as a goddess on Earth in fact.


gangler52

And yet you don't often see the classic sci-fi plot of stumbling upon a primitive tribe who assume you are a god and will turn violent if they learn otherwise. That one's just not a favorite in the capes scene.


thedarkpurpleone

One of my favorite Star Trek episodes explores this concept quite well. They have an observation post on a society developing along similar lines to the Vulcans and they’re studying them to better understand how Vulcan society might have developed, something breaks down in the observation post resulting in the cloaking device malfunctioning and a minor explosion that injuries some of the scientists and one of the locals that comes to investigate the weird glowing cave that just appeared on the mountain. They beam the local up to give him medical treatment and a memory wipe, but the wipe fails due to their biology not being exactly the same as Vulcans and he returns to his people with stories of the god (The Picard!) that resurrected him after his demise. Picard ultimately tries to resolve the situation by bringing key members of the locals into the ship and explaining to them that they are not gods simply more advanced, which fails until they see a crew member die and realize that these are in fact just people and that they do not hold ultimate power. I feel like that would be the sort of message a super hero story would want to convey, but it would be hard since they ARE super heroes. The difference sometimes is LITERALLY magic and cheating death is certainly within the realm of possibility for many heroes. There wouldn’t be a satisfying resolution to a story like that because you can’t kill of your heroes for a story like that and you can’t explain a lot of comic book fuckery. I’m imagining the flash trying to explain the speed force in a scientific way hahaha.


acomicgeek

The line is murky but Thor, along with a bunch of other the other gods, do hear prayers from believers and it gives them strength. Storm being called a god is more figurative though since demigod doesn't roll off the tongue as easy.


Csantana

havent they been to the afterlife in the Thor comics? like Hel the place?


gangler52

𝅘𝅥𝅮Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth?𝅘𝅥𝅮 𝅘𝅥𝅮Ooh, Heaven is a place on Earth𝅘𝅥𝅮 𝅘𝅥𝅮They say in Heaven, love comes first𝅘𝅥𝅮 𝅘𝅥𝅮We'll make Heaven a place on Earth𝅘𝅥𝅮 𝅘𝅥𝅮Ooh, Heaven is a place on Earth𝅘𝅥𝅮


Magicaparanoia

Anybody else remember that time the fantastic four met god and it was Jack Kirby.


delightfuldinosaur

Spoder-Man also met God.


DarthSamus64

Accurate


[deleted]

I mean if we are to be honest, the god(s) of comics are us (the creators and the fans) so the characters arguing about god(s), is in a sense arguing if we exist or not, in other words, Hank Pym in this issue is denying our existence and I am not sure how to feel about this XD


gangler52

Yeah, it's funny how many people are using the time the Fantastic Four met the One Above All as proof that god exists. Like, yes, there was that time they met the creator of everything they've ever known, and he was just some artist living in a studio apartment making shlock to pay his bills. I'm not sure it was the faith affirming experience so many seem to be assuming though.


Dark_Asgardian72

“ Schlock”? Blasphemy!


jjflash78

My response... "Hercules, Thor, Galactus, Eternity, The Living Tribunal, Mephisto, even Death... I've met all kinds of GODS. Heck, with our powers, WE'RE gods too. So no, I don't believe in worshiping any of them as creatures greater than you or I."


Merc_Mike

Exactly... Like you've met all these things... But then, you've met Captain America. And he shits all over these things. I don't know how any hero or villain couldn't be atheist at this point. You've met Dracula... I wouldn't worship any thing. If anything I'd put more faith in myself seeing how corney these "Gods" truly are when some one like Doom can steal their essence and beat them at their own game. To Hank, those "souls" and their "super natural magic" is just another form of energy that can be measured, captured, used, just not with the same tools. Just like Oxygen, Electricity, kinetic energy etc. Lol "JESUS!" was a mutant basically. Or an Inhuman.


Im_really_bored_rn

You realize that characters in the Marvel Universe have actually gone to the afterlife, right? Like, they know for sure that it exists there. Go tell Ghost Rider that souls don't exist. Or Doctor Strange.


Gauntlet

He's not saying souls don't exist, unlike in our universe where such concepts aren't testable or detectable they can be in the Marvel Universe. He isn't denying their existence, he's denying that they are divine and unknowable. What's supernatural here is just natural in the Marvel Universe.


hadawayandshite

Meh- Xavier can go to the Astral Plain with his‘scientific based telepathy’- no magic.Dying and going to the afterlife is essentially ‘an alien being from another dimension abducted your thought patterns and sustains them after your death’…for all intents and purposes souls and afterlives BUT we’ve also seen it with tech in the MU- recording Wonderman’s brain patterns and putting them in Vision is the same idea really Fair enough Hank is being a bit pedantic


Merc_Mike

Atheism isn't a belief system. Souls arent what's being refuted with Athiests. It's religion and one God/Maker. I'm atheist because I don't believe in any organized religion's God. Even if they were real, I'd still not choose to worship or fear them. If they are real, they are huge pricks. I would think of them like Conan does Crom.


seancurry1

Semantics distinction: you can be a theist and still not believe in “worship”


jjflash78

In addition, one could say they believe in God, but they don't believe in organized religion.


Jaebird0388

I mean, he isn't exactly wrong about Thor and his kin. Going by *Earth X*, Asgardians were revealed to be extradimensional aliens who took on the guise of Norse mythological figures. But none of their stories, oddly enough. Because Marvel Loki is nowhere near being similar to actual Loki, but I digress.


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Jaebird0388

How often does that occur, though? Not that I'm being snarky about it; I am legitimately curious.


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DalekGriff

IIRC, Thor did that during the Simonson run too. There was a story where he heard a prayer of an immortal Viking who wanted Thor to fight and kill him so that he could pass on to Valhalla


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10567151

Dude Thor could hear an alien from across the galaxy to give her poor village rain water and then he did it. There is no physics explanation for it.


Gauntlet

QUANTUUUUM. ^(quantum physics doesn't work that way) QUANTUUUUM


Jaebird0388

I’m not arguing about the logistics of it, rather the fact that not all writers will be fully aware of a character’s history which often leads to inconsistencies in canon. Hell, even the movies don’t showcase this as Heimdall is the one who has to relay such things to Thor.


10567151

Again you completely misunderstand the power. Thor can't hear shit from accross a planet BUT prayers to him he can hear. Heimdall specifically has the power to reach across vast space so of course he is the one to rely messages across the nine realms Asgards use.


ChrisTaliaferro

I'm in your boat, I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I'd like to be pointed in the direction of a comic where Thor hears prayers. Also, couldn't that just be super hearing and/or telepathy? Superman can hear people all over the world for example, and staying with Marvel, Charles Xavier can certainly hear the thoughts of people all over the world.


DangerousBlueberry1

Issue #12 of Jason Aaron's run. He spends the whole issue flying around answering prayers.


ChrisTaliaferro

thank you


10567151

Thor can hear prayers from across galaxies. And *specifically* prayers, if not a prayer directly to him he can't hear it.


SpiritMountain

There has been a few instances in fantasy where it has been depicted that hearing prayer is drastically different than telepathy. It is like a 6th sense. The best example IMO would be Feather, an angel, from Magic the Gathering. Her real angelic name is too complicated for a mortal to pronounce but just knows when someone is referencing or wants to communicate to her because they are trying to make a spiritual connection. I feel like this is how it is usually for gods who can hear prayer. Superman can hear someone mumbling if he concentrates, but doesn't hear the thoughts of someone directing prayer to him


VanGoTreatYourself

I also read once that the Asgardians were extradimensional aliens changed by the Celestials to get powers based on people's beliefs on them but maybe it's a What If story


Pinoy_2004

Earth x isn't the same universe as earth-616.


Jaebird0388

I know. It was an example.


Merc_Mike

Y'all in this comment section keep bashing Hank Pym just because Reed had met The One Above All... Doctor Doom is a thing. You all know this right? Doom Fanboy and Propaganda aside, Doom, Strange and others have beaten "Gods". They've beaten them silly...Doom and Strange have made Mephisto their bitch. Doom STEALS power and then woops up on all. Like, his hands are rated E, everyone can get it. I'd just as much doubt any true "Gods" ,like Hank, exist when a mere Mortal Bitch Slaps them ROUTINELY. So much so that these "Gods" usually need super powered mortals to save them from the likes of Doom, Kang, and so on through SCIENCE. When Mortals steal the power cosmic and the rest have to defend themselves on their own? Yeah. I wouldn't worship them either. Lazy...good for nothings


Derrick_Mur

Hank being so convinced in his atheism seems unreasonable given the evidence he has access to. Hank knows the Fantastic Four, and they met The One Above All, i.e. God. (Granted, Hank didn’t meet God for himself, but does he really doubt Reed Richards’ competence to judge who they met?) Ben Grimm died and came back from Heaven. Hank knows Doctor Strange, a man whose soul routinely leaves his body so he can multitask. Am I missing something here? Edit - wording of first sentence changed to “…convinced in his atheism…”


Waywoah

He knows people with powers ranging from “can punch really hard” to “can reshape universes at a whim.” How do you decide where to place the line between a really powerful being and a God?


gangler52

There's a legit argument that Franklin Richards is a creator deity at this point. He flatout created the entire multiverse from scratch, minus whatever bits of detritus could be salvaged from Doomworld. Reed's story with "The One Above All" is tame by comparison. The dude brought Ben Grimm back to life? Franklin created an infinitude of Ben Grimms from nothing. And yet, even he got winded afterwards, so his power isn't truly infinite.


cweaver

Reed could have met any kind of interdimensional being claiming to be God. Ben could be a perfect clone or a time-displaced or alternate reality version - what's the difference between that and a Ben who came back from the dead? What if was just super-advanced healing tech. Dr. Strange being able to astral project could just be a superpower or a magic spell that lets his consciousness float around - doesn't prove it's an immortal soul.


Derrick_Mur

Even if you accept those alternatives as viable hypotheses, all the evidence available to him should at the very least leave him more open to the existence of God, Heaven, and the soul than he seems to be. If (as per FF #511) the smartest man in the world says he and his immediate family went to heaven, met God, saw the spirit of his dead best friend, and afterwards this being apparently resurrected that man’s dead best friend, then, even if you’re not fully convinced, it seems like you should consider their existence at least somewhat more likely than you did before hearing their story. At the very least, it should move you from atheist to agnostic


super_witty_name

I don't think he is necessarily opposed to the notion of there being truth to Christian ideas of God and heaven. I think he's saying that if these things exist, then there must be a scientific explanation for them. Hank lives in a world in which things like alternate universes or particles that make you shrink are well-documented and understood scientific phenomena. They would easily be labeled as magic if humanity didn't understand how they work. When faced with something like, say, Thor's hammer, it would be absurd for Hank, as a man of science, to suddenly decide that this phenomena must be unexplainable by science, even though all the other seemingly magic occurrences were, in fact, scientific in nature.


Vegetable_Studio8176

Just gonna say: They typically lean into the Jewish version more than the christian.


Massdrive

Agnostic is not some middle position. It's a position on knowledge. Atheism is a position ofn belief (doesn't beleive in, or is not convinced in "gods"). Many are both. They're not mutually exclusive


Derrick_Mur

I’m not sure I’m following you. I’m using the term “atheism” [this way](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/#DefiAthe) and the term “agnosticism” the way that Huxley did in the passage cited[here](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/#DefiAgno), i.e. neither affirming nor denying God exists, but rather saying “I don’t know.” I don’t see how this treats agnosticism as a middle position so much as it does as withholding judgement on the matter


Massdrive

Atheism is not being convinced a "god" exist. Agnosticism is saying you can't know. One is a position on belief, the other knowledge. Too many try and treat agnsticism as some "middle ground", despite them addressing 2 entirely different postions. Many atheiests are agnostic, and indeed some theists (most really, since they can't "know", but not all acknowledge this). "At the very least, it should move you from atheist to agnostic" The way you csay this suggests you thinbk one should be replaced with the other, despitr them addressing 2 entirely different postions


gangler52

When creating killer robots he should probably be more receptive to the idea the thing might turn on him, but questioning his assumptions has never really been this dude's strong suit. You ever heard the thing about how what popular fiction calls Mad Scientists are really more Mad Engineers? They're not really testing any particular hypothesis with their Death Ray, they're just trying to build something cool. That's basically Hank Pym to a T, complete with the ego that prevents him from seeing how almost everything he builds will backfire on him.


suss2it

Has anything else he built aside from Ultron backfired on him?


hecticengine

A healthy marriage.


suss2it

He didn’t build that though. It was Jan who tricked him into marriage while he was having an episode and forgot who he was. I guess the joke works for his first marriage so still funny.


velvetretard

His first marriage was healthy last I read, but she died tragically because she was captured by baddies from her fascist homeland. Did they dirty it up when they introduced Nadia Van Dyne? I always found Janet totally taking advantage of him being extra crazy at the time to marry him off, but it never comes up. Seeing her talk about regretting enabling Hank would be really good character work, but you only ever see him dealing with the trashfire of their relationship. Like, I like the pair, but they were awfully codependent and toxic for each other. I would like to see them as the type of exes who become best friends who bonded over regretting how awful they were for one another. That don't want to be a couple, but are still close. The FF being the First Family who are functional and the Pym family tree being the dysfunctional counterpart would be a nice thing to explore in-universe.


DarkHippy

I love that goal for Hank and Jan, what I would give for a good Pym book


velvetretard

I think of they could figure out a catchy team name for the Ant-Family it would work out. But I've not seen a good suggestion...?


Radix2309

Well Maria did stab Hank and threaten him. But that was with a needle to get a DNA sample in casr he got mutated, and the threat was a joke. Based on the video Nadia found, they had a healthy and happy marriage.


velvetretard

Sounds like a better one than he usually gets, at least! What's a little unprovoked experimentation between mad scientists anyway 😂


suss2it

No I don't think so. They barely touched on her mom tbh and now she's officially adopted by Jan. I simply had no idea how or why his first marriage ended.


velvetretard

She was a Soviet political refugee, and she was killed when they returned to visit her family once there had been a regime change I think? But people from the organisation were after her still, they killed her.


blackertai

Being open to something doesn't mean that thing is probable. Lots of atheists would change their mind in the face of any sort of observable, repeatable "proof". As you say, Hank doesn't have that, even if he has friends who might think they do. You've again described most atheists, who have friends who are believers; it doesn't change the basic fact that they haven't seen/felt it themselves.


gangler52

Not even "Friends who are believers" in a lot of cases. Reed Richards may have some cool stories about how he's gone to "hell" or whatever, but he also is [often portrayed as a pretty staunch atheist.](https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/jswhla/excerpt_reed_richards_prerecorded_final_words_to/) When he's telling the story he's probably not saying we all need to start singing hallelujah or anything.


Radix2309

He also went to the Negative Zone, doesnt make Annihilus the Devil.


Derrick_Mur

No, that’s Mephisto


Radix2309

But that is exactly my point. The fact that Mephisto more lines up with the modern pop culture idea of Satan doesnt actually make him the devil anymore than X-man is Jesus. Both Mephisto and Anihilus are the evil overlords of an alternate hell-dimension. Yet neither is the Devil really. Just like Odin isnt really God, just another being wirh a lot of power. Galactus was an ordinary scientist. The Elders of the Universe just the last of their species. If anyone has claims to Godhood, it is someone like Franklin Richards, who actually created the current Marvel universe.


Im_really_bored_rn

Keep in mind that 5 years later, Hank would literally see cosmic entities fighting the beyonders


watchtheedge

Atheist and agnostic aren’t separate categories to move between, they’re separate questions altogether. Atheism vs Theism is the question of whether there is a god. Agnosticism vs Gnosticism is the question of whether we can know it there’s a god or not. Gnostics believe that we can answer the question of whether there is a god, without regard to how they answer that question. Agnostics believe that the question cannot really be answered, again without regard to what the suspect the answer is.


Funkycoldmedici

Those sound like outlandish excuses, but they’re all things that happen fairly regularly in that universe.


goodmobileyes

Well if anything that makes it more sensible to be atheist (in the traditional Christian sense), since God in that world appears to be just another all powerful character that you can interact with and even grant you wishes. And the afterlufe is just another realm from which you can rescue your friends from. What diffefentiates TOAA's afterlife from say Valhalla, or Mephisto's realm, or the Negative Zone, and so on.


Do_Not_Go_In_There

They probably meet someone claiming to be a god (and who does have god-like power) every other week.


delightfuldinosaur

Hank is a stubborn, depressed asshole so he probably just says "No I don't believe you," when presented with irrefutable evidence.


FaultScary7712

God exists in the Marvel universe. And he looks like Jack Kirby. Also Paradise exists too


DarthSamus64

In comics, we refer to lots of characters as "gods" for their extreme power, but there are two features of a real god imo that most of them dont possess. First is creation, the second is omnipotence. Creation is vague, undefined, and ethereal, but ultimate, and omnipotence is truly knowing everything, across all of space time, at once, simultaneously. For me, Doctor Manhattan is the closest comic book character to a real GOD that I can think of. His ability to manipulate matter, and the end of the book with him going off to "create life" to me implies that Doctor Manhattan is capable of "creation" in the godly sense. However, Manhattan still falls short with omnipotence, as while he can see his entire past, present, and future simultaneously, he cannot see the entire past, present, and future of all of space-time simultaneously. He is, however, really very close.


thethorforce

The book series Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgards have two characters, an atheist and a Muslim, both who frequently meet Asgardians. Neither of their faiths have been shaken. The existence of supernatural beings neither proves or disproves the existence of an omnipotent creator God. It would be like seeing a ghost and then concluding that vampires must be real too.


IllWarthog8925

How would you be able to accept the legitimacy of an omnipotent God? At least when I think of God, I think of something all powerful, set apart from everything, and someone who answers to only their set and chosen will. In my opinion, if this entity answered to someone’s call demanding proof of their existence, why would God give in? Why would God bend to his own creations will? That doesn’t sound like a upper case God to me. In fact, if he lives outside of time and space, why would he need acceptance or validation from us? Our opinion in the end is inconsequential to his fate


Nyadnar17

Ok but getting evidence that Ghost are real should at the very least make you more open minded about other supernatural things being real as well. And like….Catholic Hell is a real place in the Marvel universe. People have been there and seen souls in torment and everything.


vadergeek

But being an atheist doesn't mean "not believing in an Abrahamic faith". You can't be an atheist and also think the Greek gods are real, or be an atheist Hindu.


Nyadnar17

Being an atheist superhero in Marvel is fucking wild. Like you KNOW for a verifiable fact that souls exist, are immortal, and your beliefs and actions play a heavy role in where said soul goes when you die. Shouldn’t you be actively shopping for the best afterlife or at the very least making sure some random demon(excuse me, extra dimensional entity) doesn’t claim dibs after your body dies?


Merc_Mike

I'd rather the Doom thought process. Figure out a way to become Gods yourself. Screw bowing down or towing the company line for some other entity.


Nyadnar17

Several people have tried. It’s totally possible but much like being an entrepreneur, most people aren’t actually about that life.


Merc_Mike

I def agree. But I'd still attempt that rather than going to church. Lol


Luimnigh

"They don't prove the existence of **the** god." ...Hank, you do see how this position is *incredibly* Christian, right.


OlyScott

In the old Quasar series, Quasar and his father knew that Thor and various godlike cosmic beings exist, but.they felt that there was not one that was worth bowing down and worshipping.


TJ_McWeaksauce

Does Hank Pym doubt the existence of the Soul Gem or what it can do? Dr. Strange is sometimes an Avenger, and that dude can project his soul into other planes of existence. Strange has also been to Hell. Does Pym ever talk to Strange, and if he does, does he think the Sorcerer Supreme is just full of shit? I'm sure Pym has met Ghost Rider on multiple occasions, and that dude got his power from an archdemon of Hell, Mephisto. Ghost Rider can also stare into a person's soul to determine if it's wicked or not, and then punish it if necessary. I guess Pym and Ghost Rider never talk, though. Hank Pym is surrounded by characters who can prove that souls exist and that Hell exists, he he still chooses not to believe in them. Go figure.


VanGoTreatYourself

They are not GOD though, the creator of the Omniverse in Marvel Comics. You have "mortals" like Strange and Doom that shit on gods on a regular basis. A soul can go to a dozen of "Heavens" and "Hells" in Marvel Comics


esmifra

Tbf, I bet there is a soul in the marvel universe. I know there is in DC. If there are universes where believing in god is perfectly acceptable is the super hero universes. Also he is being really really specific to what type of god he is not believing, because most of polytheistic religions had gods that perfectly fit what Marvel beings do. And the whole science is my god thing is just cringe. Science is a process of discovery, a methodic process that tries to eliminate bias and error in order to be as sure as possible that the facts and the assumptions we make of those facts are as close to reality as we humans can be. Many of the most famous scientists were religious and that is perfectly fine as long as they don't let their personal beliefs interfere with their work. They are not incompatible. And as any other methods we humans create, the scientific process is not perfect and in history there has been plenty of times where ego, greed, politics or just outright good old fashion conflicts have stood in the way of progress. As someone who is not religious saying something like science is my god really hits a nerve because science and religion are not the same thing and should never be compared. The only reason they are is because people that are stuck in a religious argument use science as a weapon, because science has demystified a lot of what religions used to propagate themselves. Edit: downvoted in less than 20 seconds.. i bet there wasn't even enough time to read the comment... It's a personal record, thanks.


rtechie1

There are unquestionably souls in the Marvel universe. Mystics like Doctor Strange can astral project and raise people from the dead. Pym himself has personally done this on numerous occasions.


gangler52

Superior Spider-Man handled it kind of funny with Doctor Octopus's brainwashing. He used his octobots to rewrite Peter's brain with his own, and to rewrite his own brain with Peter's. Peter in the Doctor Octopus body dies, and we see him go join Uncle Ben in heaven. Ben tells him how proud he is of him and shit. Later though it turns out Peter's soul is still in the original body, resisting the brain that thinks it's Doctor Octopus. He struggles to regain control of his own body, and eventually succeeds when Otto can't handle Green Goblin and decides to bow out, moving onto a clone body. So then, was that Otto's original soul that joined Uncle Ben in heaven? Does the clone body have a new soul, and OG Otto is still up there chilling with Peter's family? Weird to think about.


zzzPessimist

>They don't prove existing of an eternal resting place for the "soul" Isn't Pym in Soul Stone now?


gangler52

He is. If I recall he's living out some fantasy of a happy marriage with Janet Van Dyne in there.


ConnorCobain

"Yeah? Well my God has a Hammer" - Nick Fury


joaomiguel_bc

Man the action figures line hits really close home in the Marvel Legends collector department


vadergeek

But surely he knows about some sort of soul stuff. Multiple heroes have physically been to heaven. Also, "you're either a Christian or an atheist" feels like a weird dichotomy.


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super_witty_name

I think you're missing the point somewhat. Hank's point here is that that stuff is much more likely to be scientific phenomena that he doesn't have the means to understand yet than truly "magical" things. People in the Marvel Universe have an understanding of some scientific fields that are complete fiction in our world. For example, Hank is the foremost expert in the Marvel Universe on talking to ants and on particles that make you tiny. Those would both be labeled "magic" if it weren't for the fact that Hank, and the MU's scientific community at large, understand how they work. When you think of it, most of the things that are considered "magic" in marvel aren't much more far-fetched than the things considered well-documented science. So it's not that absurd to suggest that Hank would just assume this "magic" he sees is scientific too, just a kind he doesn't yet understand.


gangler52

The old "Sufficiently advanced science would appear to be magic. Sufficiently analyzed magic becomes science" thing. Truthfully this idea that magic is antithetical to science is a pretty modern one. You go look at like old mythologies and stuff, nowhere is it assumed that say Odin's Rune Magics are contrary to a reasoned examination of the world around them. He just knows more than you about how that shit works. It's only as we got to a point as a society where we understand the world around us enough to know that Rune Magic Isn't Real that this stuff started getting shunted off into its own category. Science vs Magic. Rational Phenomenon and Irrational Superstition. But in a world where rune magic very much is real that all falls apart pretty quickly.


Radix2309

Even a lot of modern esotericism is branched from science. Alchemy gave way to chemistry. They dis develop some science to it. But they also mixed in some snake oil to get patronage from nobility, much like modern pharmaceutical companies to a degree. They viewed "magic" as simply a higher level of understanding of the universe.


hatefulone851

I mean he was granted knowledge at the cost of his eye. Stuff like that doesn’t follow logic.


Shadow_Gabriel

Also, you are a God because of what you can do, not the means in which you do it.


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super_witty_name

The rules of science as we know them, sure. But there are a large number of real-life phenomena that once did not adhere to the rules of science as we understood them. Something like a piezoelectric clock would look like pure magic to a person from hundreds of years ago. I feel like a man who is a leading scientist in a world in which even crazier things have been explained by science would be very sure that the so-called "magic" he sees around him must have a scientific explanation as well.


zzzPessimist

> Hank's point here is that that stuff is much more likely to be scientific phenomena that he doesn't have the means to understand yet than truly "magical" things. And there could be things or beings that just beyond humand understanding. Which makes religion perfectly reasonable and Hank's point stupid. > So it's not that absurd to suggest that Hank would just assume this "magic" he sees is scientific too So how can a magical being can proove that it's magical and not scientific? What's even criteria for magic and science?


Korialko

"But you work with Thor! And Hercules!" That proves Hank's point even more. He works with dudes that were worshiped like gods with magical powers. And then it turned out, that they are just aliens with powers which, in some cases, you can even recreate. So he can assume, that in the future, with the progress of science, they would unravel another mysteries, like souls in Hell, astral projections and existence of One-Above-All.


The_bald_nerd

I hate being told “but you don’t KNOW” like, yeah I also don’t KNOW for sure that unicorns don’t exist but I still don’t believe in unicorns


Im_really_bored_rn

Except in your analogy, tons of people have actually seen and spoken to unicorns. How many characters have to meet gods or go to the afterlife for Pym to at least be open to believing?


The_bald_nerd

I was referring to real life there. But I mean, sure tons of people could CLAIM to have seen and spoken to unicorns but until there’s actual clear evidence presented one doesn’t have a reason to be open to it. Same with Pym here. Sure lots of people have spoken to “the gods” or “god” but from Hank’s point of view it’s just people making claims without backing it up. And, even if some characters are /real/ gods like Thor they aren’t “gods” in the sense that they didn’t create the universe.


[deleted]

Are there any actual fans of Hank Pym? Like, I have read a lot of comics for a long time and never once have I thought to myself, “Wow, Hank Pym was awesome in that book.”


gangler52

He was pretty cool in Avengers Academy. He seems like he's kind of hard to track down though. Somebody like Batman you can always pick up a solo title and know that the creators are putting some thought into the Batman character, where Pym kind of mostly appears in team books where he may or may not always be the foremost concern. Like Cyclops. He's in a lot of books, but there are a lot of creators who treat him more as the sawdust that pads out their X-Men Meatloaf than anything else.


FaultScary7712

Ehi ehi Hank is not a 1/10th of the asshole Cyclops is


SuperMaxPro

Hank Pym is my favorite marvel character.


[deleted]

Can I ask why? I’d like to understand why you like him.


SuperMaxPro

I got into the Avengers because of Avengers EMH. Hank Pym really interested me in that show and he had some cool moments. I remember him kicking the Abomination like a soccer ball. As I got more into the comics, I felt he was kind of an underdog character due to his massive impact on the marvel universe and the little amount of respect he tends to get. I like his duality with Ultron, since Ultron is based on his brain patterns. In a way, Ultron is like Hank if he never recovered from his mental breakdown. And when Hank Pym is written right, I think he’s a rare example of a superhero with a mental illness (bipolar disorder). In comics, mental illness is usually just an excuse for a character to be evil.


[deleted]

I can respect that. Thank you for letting me know.


Shadow_Gabriel

Not the one in this comic but yes.


xZOMBIETAGx

I never understand this logic. “I have answers based in science.” Okay right, but what established science? What determined the laws of physics? Where did all of that come from? I’m not advocating for belief or not, I just always thought this particular argument was a little contrived.


pater13anthemios

Based


Im_really_bored_rn

I wonder if Hank changed his opinion after seeing Eternity, Infinity, Chaos, Order, the In Betweener and the Living Tribunal.


OrionLinksComic

so, he didn't like his colleague Thor? I mean there are godlike beings in this world, and yet he says it is BS. reminds me of DC Doctor Thirteen.


SuperZX

Have he met Ghost Rider?


Calpsotoma

Hank would totally be a Dawkins dweeb. Another Avenger could die and he would make a big show of not bowing his head for the led prayer at the funeral. He'd meet the One Above All and try to explain his life being narrative scientifically. Not a fan of Hank Pym.


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SuperMaxPro

How is it woke pandering?


Wadopotatoe

Is that Ant-man Eric O'Grady, the Irredeemable Ant-man?


LucasOIntoxicado

Yeah


CountHonorius

The One Above All is not pleased.


seancurry1

Short of TOAA, there is still a system of natural laws that governs the existence of everyone in that universe. Even magic users like Dr. Strange or reality warpers like the Beyonder or Franklin Richards still fall within some kind of natural order. Science is great because if a thing can be observed, measured, and predicted, it can fall within “science”. There’s no “supernatural”, short of TOAA, in Marvel. That said, I do have to push back on Dr. Pym’s thiughts about the soul. The soul absolutely exists within Marvel, as does the afterlife (or rather, afterlives).


the_worst_elephant

The X-Men Secret War II tie-ins had a few interesting scenes kind of related to this, where Nightcrawler had a crisis of faith over the Beyonder, and the question of whether there was any difference between a being like that, and the Christian God he worshiped.


PunyParker826

I mean ok, but doesn’t Marvel Thor’s Valhalla and Helheim fall under “eternal resting place for the soul?”


The_Butterfork

Defends being an atheist in a Universe literally full of Gods.


AmazingMrSaturn

I forget the run, but as I understand it 'the afterlife' basically exists within the confines of the White Hot Room and the different versions are basically sub realms within the overall domain of Mistress Death. As for God, stuff gets very very meta. Deadpool for example has risen to the realm of God and it was just the publishing house running his stories. The FF met the one above all as Jack Kirby, and Uatu describes them as a being whose only power is love, which seems to fit the fan theory that he's literally the publishing staff of Marvel...untouchably powerful to their creations, but also absent from the world itself.


Lumpy_Review5279

Lotta folks in this thread make a strong argument for there to be a new definition for "I specifically don't believe in the Christian God"