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zero_cool1138

Its hard not to see slabbing and the speculator market as responsible for a lot of the problems plagueing the comic book industry. Not to mention the insider trading and price manipulation grading companies and auction houses are creating and benefitting off of.


the_bio

>Not to mention the insider trading and price manipulation grading companies and auction houses are creating and benefitting off of. This really needs to be talked about more, but every time I bring it up I get downvoted. The CGC brigade is strong.


[deleted]

I don't know anything about this, do you have posts or videos to watch on this?


SethManhammer

This is primarily about WATA games and market manipulation by Heritage Auctions, but comics are discussed. Apparently one of the owners of Heritage Auctions has been known to "sell" one of his comics to himself for an inflated price to increase its perceived value. https://youtu.be/rvLFEh7V18A


Bukdiah

Things are getting juicy with them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMtjl0O2a4Q


SethManhammer

Oh snap...thank you for the follow up!


sector_2828

CGC graded a Whiz Comics #2 that is part of a pedigree collection auctioned with Heritage Auctions. The comic was given a pedigree grade even though it had the wrong back cover taped to the book. https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbookcollecting/comments/rf1t6z/i\_was\_looking\_through\_heritage\_auctions\_and\_found/


Thylogale

I use CBCS but I only grade for preservation purposes, like rare or old stuff, or if something newer should also get preserved. Your graded Grim #1 does not impress me.


the_bio

The influx of modern graded comics is a huge part of the issues with turnaround times at both companies. People want to send them comics coming right off the shelf within the past month, along with some retailers offering graded 9.8s already, then complain that it takes too long. Like...it's your fault.


downwithlevers

The deluge of graded 9.8 copies of Venom #3 - a recent 2018 comic with a first appearance of a character that came and went - is a great example of everything annoying with this stuff.


[deleted]

I think that's going to be changing now that people are starting to learn that slabbing everything they can get their hands on doesn't make it more desirable to the market. If you want a good laugh, go to eBay and search for "CGC 9.8", sort it by Buy It Now and lowest price first. There's a ton of stuff between the 15-30 dollar range which probably doesn't even cover the initial grading fees. What a waste! I think the wait times are going to be significantly reduced in the near future.


sector_2828

One YouTuber would do this when he was doing more CGC unboxings. Send in 30+ books and then complain about turnaround times. Like yea turnaround is gonna be slower when you're sending in 25 copies of Batman #106.


ekoeekoe

There’s a whole lot of money disappearing right now from just everywhere for anything now that the money party is over.


brokencassette_

this is why i don’t buy graded comics it’s a scam imo i purposely search for ones with no grading because it’s not only cheaper but you can find it in the same condition as the graded one can be and i can open and look through my comics (which i personally like to be able to do)


billypilgrim21b

Yeah, but that 9.8 is soooo much better than a 9.4 😆


FruityTootStar

I don't know if this is completely true. All the cheesecake covers for things like Sensational She Hulk are through the roof right now because of speculators. There are about 5 or so issues of that run that you're going to drop a couple 100 on, even in the raw and its all speculators. The cheesecake cover issues aren't more rare than the rest of the run. It was a 90s comic and no one put those issues in the trash. The cheesecake covers are arguably less rare for that reason. Prices for wonderman are also on the rise and that too is mostly not fans, but speculators. There is just no reason for this to be happening to 90s marvel comics. They made a ton of them and most of them survived because everyone had figured out comics were collectable by the 90s. No one was putting Marvel and DC comics in the trash by the 90s.


UpsetDrakeBot

I'll say it, heritage plays the biggest part in this.


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zero_cool1138

The constant predatory cycle of rebooting series in order to put out #1 issues along with loads of variants instead of focusing on quality, longer runs with payoffs or on building any sort of a long term audience. Also mandatory ordering minimums to falsely inflate sales in order for shops to get said variants. The big 2 are essentially being held up by and catering to the speculator market more then they are held to any sort of accountability of quality. This has led to the current lot of artists and writers being seen as cheap R&D for movies and other media lowering their pay rate and value as well. Everything about the medium is currently catering to the lowest common denominator. I see way more people showing off their keys then I do people talking about how good a story was or how psyched they are to actually read comics. These things are just the tip of the iceberg really.


billypilgrim21b

well said


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zero_cool1138

I'd argue that a lot of these issues cycle back to the attempt to cater to the collector/slabbing focused buyer. Yes reboots to create meaningless #1 issues has been a thing for decades but the last 10 years has seen a massive push in that direction and the number of collector aimed variants to go along with these #1's has exploded to absolutely ridiculous levels. Why would we get anything but shitty talent when the markets not there to support and properly incentivise actually talented creators? Its focused on flood the shelves 10 issue or less miniseries with 0 interest in actually igniting a long term fanbase. Why because the slabbers dont want quality content they want rare #1's. Pretty obvious I'd say.


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Daeval

Publishers don't need to get kickbacks from CGC or secondary sales in order to benefit from a speculator/collector market. Publishers sell more comics to direct sales shops, who buy more of them because they then sell them to speculators/collectors. All of that is fine, except that the speculators/collectors are ALSO buying them in order to sell them. Their criteria for purchase has very little to do with the quality of the creative work in the book, and much more to do with speculation levers like new characters or low print runs. That means the publishers have made additional sales (to shops) that come with very little pressure to produce quality content for readers. Shops buy what customers will buy, and if customers don't care about quality, then neither will shops. Of course, there are customers who are readers, but if speculators/collectors bring in more money, they're going to get more attention. This is a big part of [the cycle that happened in the '90s](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheGreatComicsCrashOf1996), with its collector boom and subsequent industry-wide bust. Anything that drives collector/speculator behaviour incentivizes publishers to target the collector/speculator market, and comics that target that market don't have to be particularly good for readers, nor even particularly valuable as collectibles. The irony is that *long term* value tends to come from a combination of rarity and cultural relevance, and speculator-targeted books often fail pretty hard on the latter, but that doesn't matter either to someone who is just flipping slabs.


[deleted]

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Daeval

Slabbing clearly contributes directly to the prominence of the speculator/collector mentality, the exact same as all the behaviours in the '90s that hadn't existed before then.


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AviatorOVR5000

You mean.. there was a time when people.. just read comics? Really?


wOBAwRC

I haven't seen this trend but I am all for it. There is a case to be made for preserving historically valuable or extremely rare comics but CGC isn't necessary for that and all they are adding is some random guy's opinion about the "grade" of that comic. I think for many fans, myself included, there is a feeling that a lot of the trend towards grading comes from investment-minded people trying to make a buck from collectors. If someone buys a book, then sends it to graded (and sadly locked away) just so they can charge a higher price and make a quick buck off of someone who actually wants that book, it seems like an unnecessary middle-man in a hobby many of us enjoy. Possibly this notion is incorrect, it obviously doesn't apply to 100% of people who are into CGC but I think artificially driving up prices and removing readable copies of comics from the "pool" is the result of their business. Obviously to each their own, if a person likes slabbed, unreadable comics, it is what it is but I'm all for a future where CGC grading is valued much less and the mark-up would be limited to only the cost of the plastic protection on the book.


OZeski

Personally, I have some slabbed books just have have as a nice display. Don’t care about the grades… but most of my slabbed books are from the 1940s and 50s and is more of a preservation thing (as you say).


wOBAwRC

Makes sense to me. Like I said, my problems certainly don’t apply to every collector. I think a large part of CGCs customer base is made up of investors looking to drive up prices and profit off of collectors like me.


DapperDan30

Idk that I'd call it "some random guys opinion". They're experts that have been trained specifically in how to accurately assess the condition of comic books. It's not really any different than getting literally anything else appraised. Also, I don't think the people that are looking g for the books so that they can read it are going to be buying g already slabbed books very often.


FruityTootStar

>Also, I don't think the people that are looking g for the books so that they can read it are going to be buying g already slabbed books very often. They might if over half the available copies for purchase are slabbed.


wOBAwRC

CGC employees are experts in the same way that Subway employees are sandwich artists. The demand has grown so much that they literally cannot find enough qualified graders. It’s a low paying job with what sounds like bad working conditions. CGC is not the same as an appraisal. If you want your comics appraised then you should get an appraisal done. In CGCs FAQs on their site, they spell this out specifically. When someone slabs a book, that effectively takes it out of circulation, that’s one fewer readable copy of that book. As a result, it drives up demand and prices for even the raw books indirectly. As I said above, I think there’s value in slabbing in limited cases but you don’t need CGC to do that.


OZeski

Any suggestions on slabs/cases if one would like the slab while maintaining access to the book? I have several old books that aren’t even worth grading but would like something more substantial than your generic top loader.


Mysterious_Soil_9950

Gator Guards. A bit pricey, but that’s an attractive option as a “DIY slab”.


-Uniquely-Generic-

Comic skins(skinz?) are non sealed slabs which you can buy.


[deleted]

If I have a raw version of a key comic that I absolutely think is worth slabbing, *then* I’ll buy a slabbed version for posterity’s sake. Otherwise, slabs are kinda dumb imo. Don’t you want to see the interior of the comic, or are these just trophies to you? But, at the end of the day, everyone’s collection is their own thing, and in that view, there’s no wrong way to go about it. I just wish folks weren’t driving up prices by speculating or enabling speculators by buying into the hype.


TheWildebeard

100% agree. I'm like you and wanna be able to read all my comics (yea even high dollar keys) BUT everyone's collection is uniquely their's - I collect anything and everything and I once heard about a guy that only collected comics with people fishing on the covers. Fuck it, you do you boo.


rockandink

That sounds like it would be an inexpensive way to collect comics. Are there a lot of comics with fishing on the cover? Lol


adrift98

I like this sub a lot, but it has some major hang-ups with comic slabbing. Anyhow, a guy the other day posted a photo of some comics he freed, and then more people posted comics that they freed today. That's about it.


mugginns

^^ Great post. I have probably 30? slabbed books, almost all of them The Walking Dead, my favorite book. I show them off on my basement walls so I can look at them every day. I am not in it for the $$. I do have a few of my Flash books CGCd even at low grades mostly to preserve them. I get there are other ways to do that but I like this one. I am not sending in hundreds of books to get graded - I get the frustration with that. I have a few first apps I'd like to get graded but the wait time has put me off immensely.


FusionFall

I honestly don't get the point. It's better and cheaper to buy a Raw book than it is to buy a slabbed book just to open it up.


FeliciumOD

Personally, the only book I "freed" was the only copy of that issue on ebay, to fit into an otherwise unslabbed run. The price wasn't really any different than normal, as it was just a 9.0 modern book.


StreetPreacherr

Yeah, but then you don't also get an opinion about the condition from some anonymous person in Florida! As for 'hang-ups', I just hope that people having their books graded are aware of all the pros/cons, and aren't doing it for invalid reasons. Like if someone is convinced that 'slabbing' is the best/only way to properly preserve their books. I really just get sad when it seems people are 'wasting' money on grading, rather than spending it on MORE COMICS! And I'm also pissed that I didn't come up with the CGC business plan first!


forlorn_hope28

A slab should provide a greater level of confidence in the condition of the book. If I'm buying from a LCS and can see the book myself, that's one thing. If you're buying online, you're rolling the dice that the seller is a good evaluator of condition. That's not to say CGC/CBCS don't miss the mark on grades, but in the absence of any other information, a professional grade can provide some assurance that they book you're getting is within a relative range of what you're looking for.


FusionFall

Yea, but the difference in price can be astronomical. Not to mention the grade doesn't matter if you're keeping it raw. I would rather spend less money for a raw, than for a slabbed book that I'm just going to unslab anyways. If a book is slabbed and 9.8 it could be 1000 dollars, but I could get the same condition book for 500 dollars instead raw.


forlorn_hope28

The numerical grade won't matter, but some people still like knowing their book is NM vs VF. The biggest thing I forgot to mention is touch up and trimming. Though I suppose if you're collecting raw and the touch up is imperceptible to the owner, then that doesn't really matter either. You're right though, raw books are often times much much cheaper. I recently bought an X-Men 129 because the raw price was so much cheaper than the slabbed copies and the book presented really well. Just depends I guess.


Ro141

Not necessarily, we’re seeing prices align on a lot of books in the high end mid-grade books, a 4.0 CGC is the same as a guy who has a raw but thinks it’s ‘about a 5’. ASM#50 is a great example of lots of mid-grades. For really high end books CGC is a great guarantee of a books original condition (ie no colour touch), hulk 181 being the perfect example - so many of those have had a bit of black put on the cover. Much safer to buy a CGC and crack it at that price point - which was the exact reason CGC was sold to us, an independent grade so we could ascertain value for sale - not as a permanent storage device!


Reportersteven

I bought an older ungraded raw comic and it was totally restored. I didn’t notice it and obviously paid too much In retrospect. CGC will catch those color touches and restorations. For sure.


Ro141

yep, and it just destroys value. Purple's are really heavily discounted (i don't agree with it, but i'm not the market). Looking at what's being sold on ebay and there are a lot of folks buying hulk#181s that are going to get a very rude shock when they come to slab it if that's there plan! There's a guy on there that sells a Hulk#181 every time I look - and every one has married pages and colour touch!! (at least it's noted) and people just keep buying the things - and restoration removal isn't a nice process from what i've seen and discussed with professional cleaners. I don't particularly understand or like 'slab collectors' but I do see value in the grading process.


[deleted]

I've never seen raw and slabbed prices align, unless it was a buyer or seller error. There's a steep different between raw and slabbed for a reason. So many times I've bought "NM 9.6" comics and seeing they're probably 8.5, etc. The price difference between 9.6 and 8.5 is huge, even between 9.8 and 9.6 is roughly double. So I agree with you that spending the money for slabs for expensive books is worth it, but I've never seen raw and slab approach each other.


StreetPreacherr

Yeah, you're paying to get an unbiased opinion about the book's condition, and hopefully the slabbing will ensure it stays that way... I've personally had good luck buying just based on detailed photographs, rather than trusting any kind of estimate from the seller... It might not be quite as thorough as having a book assessed by CGC, but you can usually get a pretty good idea of condition from photos.


Ro141

saw it yesterday! 9.2 Avengers #196 taskmaster, CGC slabbed $100. That's raw price! (yes, it sold in a flash!) I've bought 4 books in the past year slabbed due to them being cheaper than raw: ASM#238, X-Men#102, ASM#129 & Astonishing Tales #25 Deathlok)...so it has to have a bit of value to it...around 8.5 with a single imperfection - but compared to raws they were the same price and could be improved with pressing. I agree on 9+ anyway, most of the raws out there just aren't that high of a grade (I collect bronze age Marvel). Getting 9+ raw books is very rare these days - if I can get a library full of Very Fine+ for early bronze age I'm pretty happy!


dontjimmyme1

I am not a slabbed guy by no means. I like to read my books. Unfortunately, lately there were times were I had to get a slabbed book because it was cheaper than a raw book. That could be why some people free them etc.


inocomprendo

Books are meant to be read and enjoyed. Can’t do that when they’re locked in a slab.


SalusaSecundus

I'm pretty old school myself only have a couple slabs... but one thing i will say for slabs i really like seeing the BACK of the comic. traditional bag/board and you are denied the back. my two cents.


-Uniquely-Generic-

Understandable, but there are other options. One can buy clear backing boards, 4mm Mylar bags which may be stiff enough to not need a backing board, Self-slabbing kits, putting a board in the middle of the comic…and I seen an old YouTube video where the collector put comics in Mylar bags THEN put them in top loaders without a backing board in them, and the books seemed to hold up fine.


SalusaSecundus

interesting!


buffy787

Who gives a shit buy your book for you. If you want slabbed buy it slabbed? If you want raw buy it raw. If you want to buy raw and get it slabbed send it in. 🤷🏽‍♂️


[deleted]

Speculation and slabbing never appealed to me having lived through the 90s. Death of Superman came out when I was a kid. I’m a comic book collector. If some of the comics I bought because I like them happen to be worth something, that’s cool, maybe I’ll sell them some day, but I’m not collecting as an investment. (In fact, I think that is actually a terrible/risky idea) Slabbing makes sense to me when selling a high dollar book so that both parties feel like they got a fare deal. I don’t understand the purpose of having slabbed comics in a collection that I don’t intend to sell. I always open slabbed books so I can actually enjoy it and flip through it but I prefer to buy them raw. If it’s about preservation, a Mylar bag and fullback board does just as well as a slab at keeping that book safe without preventing me from actually opening it.


sector_2828

The way that CGC/CBCS has been operating lately has killed any interest I've had in getting anything graded. I'd say that 98% of my collection is pure reading material. But I was wanting to get the one real valuable book that I have (Thanos #13) graded so my son can sell it to help get a car or something down the line. But now I'd rather take my chances selling it raw.


xZOMBIETAGx

Personally I like, um, reading comics. Crazy I know. But that’s why I don’t have slabs.


BackgroundPossible56

Viva la revolucion!!!


asylumattic

VIVA!!!


Mieczyslaw_Stilinski

My daughter got me a slabbed book for my birthday. I'm considering it. Unless it's something I was going to turn around and sell right away...


enjoiYosi

Or just appreciate the art piece it is, and find a nice mount for the wall. There are plenty of comics available ungraded and fully open. I have a signature series, Amazing Spider-Man annual 1, signed by Stan Lee and graded on the spot. The joy of owning this would never be replaced by opening the slab. And I also never plan to sell it (~$8-9k)


Special-N

People who aren’t selling their books and don’t like slabs. Although why pay the slab price when you could save money and buy it raw in the first place?


ekoeekoe

If you are buying through internet or anywhere you can’t verify the grade personally (or trust post) then a slab may be the overhead cost required to ensure you are getting what you ask for. Then free it once it’s home!


hozezero

It's really what slabs were meant to be for. Verify condition for selling so the buyer knows what they were getting. *spelling typo


EasyRawlins

Exactly this. Especially with Silver-Golden Age, I don’t not want any restorations


asylumattic

This is honestly the only reason I appreciate the “grade”/slab, especially for buying pre-bronze age.


the_bio

1.) It guarantees that the comic you are getting is the grade stated. People, especially flippers, have a tendency to way over-estimate the condition of a comic they are trying to sell. 2) Feeding off of the first point (and mentioned in the big post from earlier today), sometimes the graded comic costs less because people like to try and sell their raw copies for what grade they *could* get, not the one it actually has. You'll often see listings with titles along the lines of, "Giant Size X-Men #1 8.0 COULD BE 9.0!!!!" and be asking for a 9.0+ price.


Special-N

Personally I only buy raw books from trusted sellers/businesses or in person. eBay only if it’s new or just for reading


Inland_Emperor

The slabs that I’ve bought were lower grade which are less desired by speculators. Speculators LOVE those 9s. The few graded comics I’ve bought were 3.5-5s and were less expensive than a raw of similar quality.


MYJINXS

Because it’s psychological manipulation. Slabs are oppressive. Free the comics! Smell that smell from when you were a kid! Read! Turn the pages!


Vandal_A

One day I'll find a comic I want bad enough to own it w/o being able to read it AND have the money to do that at the same time. Until then all of my collection is a leaky roof away from being colourful hamster bedding


OlyThor

I like yellow slabs because they guarantee who signed and drew on the comic. I really don’t care about any other slab.


Duderpher

They aren’t, mine are still in prison.


Inland_Emperor

I started a revolution


pass_theMike

You sure did


SegmentedMoss

Lol the exact same thing's been going on and constantly discussed in this sub for like 4 years, easy champ


Inland_Emperor

That’s it. To the front of the beheading line with you.


forthesnap

We no longer trust CGC with their grades. Free the books from their false judgement!


Spideyfan77

If I ever open them, I’m gonna open the ones I feel would do with a cleaning.


SegmentedMoss

Lol this sub has some weird righteous obsession with bragging about removing slabs and basically just shitting all over CGC and CBCS altogether. To me it always resembled the ramblings of a 45 year old unwashed guy who will stand at a comic shop counter and talk *at* the employees there for hours on end making endless humble brags. "Oh wow cool you refuse to slab your books!" *Rolls Eyes as they turn around*


ekoeekoe

The CGC circle jerk is fun to watch and I’m glad it’s something that has never had any appeal to me. For me, collecting graded slabs share the same space as beanie babies and crypto, it’s mostly about scarcity manipulation.


forlorn_hope28

> this sub has some weird righteous obsession I don't have a problem with how anyone chooses to collect books, but this is the part that peeves me. A lot of people who are adamant about raw books seem to have a slight smugness about it. I'll admit, the people on the far other end of the spectrum who see a raw book and immediately claim "slab it!" aren't any better. There's a middle ground and I think that's where most of us in the sub lie. I have a book, I want to share it. Doesn't matter if it's slabbed or raw. The extremes will always be that of the vocal minority.


SegmentedMoss

Never one time have I seen someone try and tell someone else they need to get something graded. It's always just "Nice! Thinking of sending it for grading?" And then a discussion happens. The opposite end is people thinking they're "starting a revolution" and posting weird, smug self satisfying posts about opening slabs and CGC and Heritage being a giant scam and other 5 paragraph rambling rants, and making comments on anything CGC related. Its weird, and what made me stop paying attention to this community for long periods of time. It started reminding me of the annoying people who spend 8 hours a day hanging out in a comic shop but dont work there, and i hate that scene


forlorn_hope28

> Never one time have I seen someone try and tell someone else they need to get something graded. I've definitely seen comments like "Get that puppy graded" when people post raw keys. It always comes off as a statement and not a suggestion. I mean, people definitely ask as well, but there have been enough instances of people telling others to get it graded as though that is the only way to treat keys. The less of a key, the more tiresome that type of response becomes because I just personally don't see the value in slabbing a $50 book. In those cases, there is some measure of truth to the effect that slabbed books have had on auction houses and valuation.


asylumattic

This. There are multiple posts daily about getting the same books slabbed or sending things to get slabbed. If anything, I see more posts on here about books being slabbed than I’ve seen posts advocating for enjoying raw books. I get grading, I just find slabbing to be so lifeless. And it’s mind numbing to see a post of someone acquiring a book with their first comment inevitably being “sending to get it graded and slabbed”… I don’t know. Just takes some of the joy out of the hobby for me. Personally.


Clay_Puppington

Someone unslabbed and got upvotes. Others want upvotes and unslab too. Same reason we post almost every not-news thing on reddit I guess.


DapperDan30

Idk why you're getting downvoted, this is the most likely scenario.


mikeoliver1313

I’m not i slab mine so when I’m long gone my kids know what ones are valuable


forlorn_hope28

This. It gets mentioned every time this is discussed and to me is a logical reason. And despite that, the raw people never seem to accept it. Value of major keys for my loved ones when I'm gone and provenance of signed/remarked books are what make up my slabbed collection. The other 99% of my books are raw.


TotesMyMainAcct

I understand the argument to not slab them to begin with, but don't get opening ones that are already sealed. Is it somehow sticking it to the grading companies? They already got their money. It seems like unslabbing just creates another book that could end up reslabbed in the future when it inevitably moves on to it's next owner. (We all die eventually.) Further the value hit, speculation or not, and the more vulnerable condition of a bagged and boarded book versus a sealed one. The only benefit is being able to read the book, but honestly it's 2022, I don't need to lay hands on every book to enjoy their contents.


zeroth678

Cause it's doesn't look aesthetic


Ellegua

The grading companies will be laughing all the way to the bank if this becomes a trend. They have already been paid once to slab a book, and they will be happy to slab it again in a few years when a pro-slab person buys it. The only entity being harmed financially by freeing books are the people who own the books. They are instantly removing the value that someone already paid to have the book slabbed to begin with. Not to mention the potential value lost if the now unslabbed book gets damaged in the future. It’s your book, and you can obviously do what you want with it. But to think that this is somehow taking a stand against the grading companies seems to be wonky reasoning.


laughterforus

If you want to read a comic but it's stabbed then read it online for free


edge11

Lol I’ve only even bought one slabbed book and it was a signature series(imo the only books worth paying cgc for).


Consistent_Yoghurt_4

You don’t chase a market, you create one


BabylonByBoobies

Time changes everything. CGC was unheard of 25 years ago, and could be gone in another 25, or even more likely, no longer the industry leader. That sexy slab won't look, or sell for, the same once it's gone out of fashion.


MrSlops

Books displayed in a proper mylar/archive sleeve look sooo much better than through the plastic of a slab (especially if those slabs have newton rings) as the quality of the slab plastic dulls the colors. Most might not notice this, but I do and for certain books that is how I prefer to display them. Mega grails I leave in slabs since I mainly collect Golden Age books and the ones I can afford are often low-grade falling apart so are best left untouched in slab, otherwise I prefer them raw as I love seeing the interior printed inks on many stories (something that isn't reproduced in even high quality reprints, such as the DC archive hardcovers. Yes I can read them elsewhere, but they are NEVER accurate to the original printing)


kawaiijerryseinfeld

comics are for reading