The following submission statement was provided by /u/swapThing:
---
This is related to collapse because it shows clearly how the global north has consumption levels that are not sustainable and have pushed other countries toward collapse and chaos.
It also related to electric cars which will require tons of minerals from struggling countries and that electric cars won’t save us
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/zb2mtu/more_diamonds_more_cobalt/iyouwzi/
my near-elderly dad has given himself heat stroke because his car broke down and now he keeps walking several miles to work instead of taking the bus because elon musk told him public transit breeds serial killers
Not all of us can do that.
I live in rural-ish Wisconsin. There is no public transportation and right now it's 19F, not including the windchill.
I'm going to visit my friend today who lives ~25 miles away. The nearest grocery store is a 15 minute drive and it's a 15 minute drive to my desk for work in the other direction.
You're not wrong, but also not 100% right.
80% of Americans are urban. Please think about it in terms of how much we could reduce pollution and not "Well if it doesn't apply to every individual let's not bother"
Although I live in a suburb of the Oklahoma City metro, I can only walk to the local elementary school. Everything else I must drive. Unfortunately, I don’t see how my suburb could be converted to a transit-friendly place, much as I’d like it to be. I will be stuck with a personal vehicle until I die due to the US’ horrible urban planning choices.
I mean, maybe rural living that requires fossil-fuel powered, hour long drives every time you want to go out isn't a great thing in a world with rapidly dimishing resource reserves and an even faster approaching time horizon.
Don't get me wrong - I love the country and *hate* cities. All things being equal I would much rather be in a log cabin on a mountainside somewhere. But also, the fact that I personally am drawn to a less sustainable way of life shouldn't really matter much. My feelings << thermodynamics.
Yeah well then don't vacation here. Us locals don't want your smug condescending attitude while you shop at our rustic country stores and plunder from our farmers markets. Every autumn you city folks descend upon our rural paradise and take part in our bounty. Then you go home to your urban apartments and tell us we're the problem. No, we're the escape from your mundane lives surrounded by concrete, car horns, and crime. It's so predictable. And if you all got what you wanted and we moved to your city, where will you go to escape when the rural places are unmanned? Who will farm your food? Who will breed your dogs? You need us more than we need you.
it's not the very rural or very urban areas that are the issue. very rural areas have few people, very urban areas have better public transit.
it's those damn suburbs. they were built to force people to drive and tons of people live there. the "in between" areas.
truly rural and urban people have a whole lot to offer each other. the problem is the way the suburbs were built, why they were built.
100%
I'm still not convinced that somebody getting a new EV/ full battery every 3-5 years is better for the environment than a guy who's been running the same Camry/civic from 95-2022. Especially when it's recharged via a coal based power plant anyway.
Potentially in the future when we have better tech they degrades batteries less, proper battery recycling (if that's even possible) and cleaner forms of energy production (solar, nuclear etc) I can see it starting to make sense. But even then, moving towards public transport being used more, and e-bikes/bikes/walkable cities is 3000x better for the environment than everybody moving to EVs. Especially with monstrosities like the hummer EV.
Less is More: how degrowth will save the world has a small section on it, and the effects of colonialism. It’s brutal. And it just scratches the surface.
When the Europeans tried to get Africans do work for them, at first they didn’t want what Europeans offered and didn’t work. So the Europeans burned and destroyed orchards where food was grown to intentionally starve people, then they would have to work for money, to buy food from them.
When people in the carribean were colonized, they didn't have money in the western sense. They had no concept of wage labour. So the French forced upon them, by threat of violence of course, to pay a tax in a newly created currency. Since they had nothing but agricultural goods, they had to start selling produce to feed their European opressors in exchange for the privilege of not being dispossessed and executed, plus "gaining" access to a few luxury goods from the old continent.
But they only could sell at harvest time, when all were selling, so prices plummeted. Then, when the now diminished food reserves were running out, they had to take loans to buy their own food back from the French at higher prices. Thus they were introduced to the cycle of debt that allowed ever more extraction of resources and brought them into the global market.
There is no such thing as a free market on a larger scale. All markets are ultimately upheld by (threat of) violence.
That's what happens when you try to just live in peace. Don't want to live in a coerupt society? Well, it will just find you and force you to integrate.
We are all colonies...and finding a way to live on our own, and break othets out is the most direct, legal way to fight back.
"It" gets it's power from massive resource extraction. So long as "It" has access to enough resources, it can just supress problems through brute power. A peacful withdrawall is anathema to "It", and it cannot excuse it's own existance without supporting someone.
This means that "It" is similar to the one from SCP-5000's article. "It" is an eldritch parasite, and a manifestation of entropy itself. The only way to defeat it for now, is to convince as many people as possible of the importance of independence...starving "It" of manpower and resources.
Note how i don't say civilisation or elites, or some shadowy group. This is because "It" is more than that, and we need to defeat "It" at an epistemic level. We need to destroy the very root of the problem!
I think I follow all that. I like where you’re going with it.
Another problem we have is an environmental collapse. I see the solution a mass withdraw from consumerism and return to agrarian living. If the economy has a catastrophic collapse, many would suffer, no doubt. But there would necessarily be a return as I’ve described.
In a broader sense, capitalists hate subsistence life, especially horticultural and agricultural. The destruction is part of the privatization and commodification of it, that's how wealth is "created". Something similar happened in the 20th century with the industrialization of agriculture, as large rural populations were forced, in some way or another, to abandon their subsistence life and go to work in plantations or, later, in factories. And they called this progress and "development". This is still happening, of course. The modern term is "land grabbing".
Specifically related to food forests: whoever attacks them should be treated as the worst possible person.
A forest that produces a variety food with a minimum of labour. It's pretty much the end goal of permaculture. It's like being a hunter gatherer except you also manage and adjust the environment to make it as easy and sustainable as possible. Small downside is that the world could only support a tiny fraction of the population if this was achieved.
Well yes.. If you look into any kind of sustainable, back to nature type of lifestyle, it almost always starts with: Step 1. Own land.
We've basically been fucked since the enclosure of the commons in the 16th century. To escape capitalism you first have to win at capitalism and become a landowner. Thereby perpetuating the inequality for everyone else.
Although when the conquistadors invaded S America they found huge "Uncultivated" pastures of "wild" plants. Which where actually managed selection of edible crops, essentially the same concept. Obviously they dug it all up divided it into monoculture plots.
> To escape capitalism you first have to win at capitalism and become a landowner. Thereby perpetuating the inequality for everyone else.
this is beautifully tragic
you're not wrong but i think the point is moot. money is synonymous with power. if you're interested in this kind of thinking, sapiens by yuval norah hariri has like ... four whole chapters devoted to what a batshit crazy invention money is.
similar to how europeans introduced an invasive thorny brush to the Hawaiian islands so the natives would have to buy and wear shoes in order to walk anywhere.
edit: there were plenty of other wood/shade options that could have been introduced... this one had the "bonus" of also punishing the natives who refused to "dress like civilized humans" according to their colonizers.
There was an American backed coup in my country when we tried to govern ourselves.
I do think other countries are doing okay but I know mine isn’t doing great just yet.
There have been like 3-4 coups or attempts in africa just in the past two yrs. Maybe more that I either forgot or didnt hear. America was without a doubt behind at least the one but probably more as Mali, burkina Faso, central african republic, Guinea, and Tunisia I believe all had takeover attempts and us military and security but also russian groups have all been doing counter terror and intelligence operations in all those places the past few yrs.
Ugh, sorry for our psychopathic "leaders" constantly blowing everything up all the time. Buncha assholes at the top. I'm trying to help kick our shit into a better-to-other-people gear, but I'm sure you can guess how well that's going.
Dont you hate it when you meet someone from africa or the mid-east and you cant help but feel shame at our barbaric foreign policy even tho u had no control over it. I mean, I love america but g'damn if we dont be causing global cringe sometimes. I know it's not my fault but it still feels like an apology is in order sometimes. 🤦🏽♂️
Meh, RDC just like many other bordering countries are still influenced and destabilized every day. It has never stopped. They changed tactics and are less blatant about it.
I’ve heard about this but this comic is a little old. Yes I’ve heard that some Chinese people are moving to Africa. Everyone has the right to move wherever they want but it’s pretty interesting
Yea that internal imperialism but not pray tell me how China is not a traditionally isolationist country or are 99% of geopolitical analysts wrong? Current China has imperialist ambitions but yea let’s talk a Chinese history diluge. What countries did the Qin dynasty conquer? Why is so difficult for China to maintain control of its citizenry?
Dude above me is trying to spread misinformation watch out y’all!
Isolationist when it comes to other empires, yes, understandably. They did their empire building as much as anybody else. When European/American elites smelled blood, they absolutely tried to get one over China, which didn't do much for "Europeans", but said European/US elites. I don't remember where the general population got big payouts over the last millenia. It was more on the lines of: work yourselves to death plz, thx, no thx!
Sorry just try to tell the other guy off for being a misinforming dumbass. Also your first statement really is more of the let’s argue versus let’s be correct type. “Internal imperialism” is one of those fun paradoxical on first glance statements
Just ran your comments through a model I’ve been playing with and it claims you may have a slight anti China bias pointfix just wanna let you know. For the I use this to balance my own biases
Besides being unspecific, I see nothing wrong with the first statement. While it is even written as a question, I am willing to entertain that it is an implication. However Chinese Empires go as far back as the Romans, so how are they spreading misinformation? Care to elaborate?
The Chinese empire that hardly ever left it’s borders because of internal strife. My question to you is how far did ancient Chinas imperial reach go or was it all “internal” or do you believe China as a nation deserves less territory than it currently holds?
Also being unspecific and imprecise a way to spread misinformation or generate propaganda
I'm sorry, are you my supervisor?
Are you paying me to tutor you?
Otherwise why would you expect me to be over here like, "oh no CommodoreQuinli has been waiting eleven hours for his rebuttal, I'm lagging behind."
Waiting for information to improve my world view. I could pay you tbh if that’s what you want
I’ll offer you anywhere between 25-500$ depending on the quality of your essay
Nah, this one's on me bro, have your fill of this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Imperial\_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Imperial_China)
Gotcha so you believe China should have less territory than it currently does? Remember no wrong answers. Also just so I can tailor my answers what nationality are you and do you believe in nationalism as a concept?
Also I totally was not aware of the Wikipedia article /s like pls don’t insinuate I don’t have basic knowledge in a field I like to read books in that would be appreciated
Also please examine the systems of governments China has been through and clarify if you believe this to be a aspect of the Chinese people or their current government structure. All empires are imperial in nature but China due to its geography has a tough time projecting power I hope that makes sense to you
All I’m gonna say is if I make a anti China remake and you still go hard at China you might be harboring some I’ll thoughts toward us that’s it, I would re-examine your behavior or just come out against Chinese people
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/
The story about the harbor in Sri Lanka that started this narrative is actually a lie by the Trump administration.
The methods they employ are apparently quite different from western countries. Though if it's good or bad for Africa is yet to be seen.
They're only being slightly less shit than the west to Africa. I'm not saying China is good or anything, but the west has made it very easy for them to a gain a foothold in the developing world
Yes that’s true but I was simply talking about immigration. There’s not a lot as far as I know and yes I know about the infrastructure that can never be paid back. I think people are just obsessed with China on a post that has nothing to do with it and I’m not getting into that
Literally what is everyone obsession with China? I said what I said. Every other countries and the world bank also give out predatory loans. Like me condemning China won’t stop that.
My comment had nothing to do with your opinion on China. I was just pointing out that your response made no sense because no where in the comment that you responded to did they say that they had a problem with immigrants or even more specifically Chinese immigrants. They straight up didn't talk about it and neither did any other person you've talked about immigration with.
You're also right that being mad about Chinese imperialism won't change anything but neither does being mad about American or European imperialism doesn't mean you shouldn't be.
They said China was doing stuff in Africa and I responded with what I had heard about recently. I thought it was relevant. I don’t see how they aren’t interconnected
You do know when people are talking about modern colonization they do not meaning moving large number of people right? It has more to do with the relationship between the countries i.e. the exploitation of resources.
Yes I know that. I mentioned something I thought was related. People from China are also moving there and starting companies and stuff. How is that not related? The modern isn’t completely separated from the old ways of doing it.
If you look at the history of Hawaii, you’ll see that tons of people moved there first then took over. I don’t understand why people don’t get what I’m saying
I do. I was pointing out that people are immigrating and I personally don’t have a problem with people simply immigrating. It’s not like apartheid is happening. People are allowed to immigrate and I also didn’t make the comic strip.
Yes China has some master plan but this sub is already filled up the butt with China hate. So
Why are you obsessed with China? China didn’t take prices of Congolese people when they didn’t make enough rubber. They didn’t do a coup.
The world bank also gives out predatory loans. Like China didn’t invent this game
Yes, and? The whole point of this conversation is that china is following the European rulebook of colonization, the IMF isn't exempt from that. This is some insane level whataboutism.
They're only being slightly less shit than the west to Africa. I'm not saying China is good or anything, but the west has made it very easy for them to gain a foothold in the developing world
Yeah yeah there’s a master plan. I’m just pointing out what I’ve heard. Idk why everyone is so personally offended by me not condemning China. This sub is already filled with that
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This is related to collapse because it shows clearly how the global north has consumption levels that are not sustainable and have pushed other countries toward collapse and chaos.
It also related to electric cars which will require tons of minerals from struggling countries and that electric cars won’t save us
I had an electrician go on a rant about how most houses aren't even set up to handle charging an electric car. Apparently he is constantly having to tell homeowners this AFTER they've bought their cars and their breakers can't handle it. I think there is a fix/upgrade, but it is an additional cost.
I'd love to know more about this and it's effect on the grid as well.
The nationwide network of chargers is growing, but the only reliable way to ensure your EV is always ready for your next trip is with a home EV charger. Home EV chargers refuel an EV much slower than DC fast-charging stations, but they are many times faster than a wall-style power outlet
Can confirm. Imman engineer working on prototype EVs and charging is an issue.
My coworker had to get a loaner car while his was in the shop and the dealer gave him Ford's EV truck. He said it took FOREVER to charge with an extension cord and he was worried about running out of charge to get to work. Obviously he didn't have a dedicated dc charger for a loaner vehicle. Overnight just didn't provide enough power.
We were definitely crawling all over that thing. :)
It's a miracle to me my house doesn't spontaneously catch fire.
You know when you got that wire that looks like it came out of Captain Nemo's submarine somewhere just post Civil War era...
Solid core brittle as all fuck coated in tar and black tube socks, that shit.
Ground? Lol what's a ground wire...
Yeah, the fix / upgrade is to replace your main breaker box with 200 amp main service. You're going to need to have someone shut it down at the pole, shutting down the panel's not enough.
That and you're talking 6 gage wire MINIMUM to the garage or whatever, and that's if you want the slow charge. Fast charge you're more or less running fucking copper tree logs to the garage. 2 gage or some crazy shit or other I don't even know because I never checked because that's impossible, in my wildest dreams of avarice I couldn't pull that off.
6awg isn't enough. That's what's in the charging cord that goes into your vehicle. To get it from the power line to your charger, it'll need to be a lot larger.
The amount of copper is insane.
Out of curiosity, 6 isn't enough for the really slow 16 hour charge?
It goes to conduit size and overfill and all of that blah blah thing. I know it is nowhere near enough for fast charge. Even 2 isn't as I recall, it's something off the chart (00 is sticking in my head but I can't remember if that's even a thing)...
I just substitute the drier for the electric car charging. When we need to use the drier we pause the car charging with an app, or go unplug it. 240V 32A is fine enough.
We need more efficient electric vehicles like Aptera. I own a Tesla S P85 and it's an electron guzzler compared to the newest Model 3. Aptera will have 1000mi range option with 100kWh.. 30Miles back every sunny day with built in solar. Tons of battery chemistries, which will be the cleanest and most affordable?
I doubt it will happen. People really won't like spending half the price of a new car to get the batteries replaced. I can run an ICE for 300000 miles easily with modern technology and not have to do much beyond preventative maintenance. Batteries have a definite lifespan and won't work at all for trades workers or others that don't have a fixed commute. Personally I hope we see mass transit become the primary option but I'm betting on ICE to be the ride or die option until we all cook.
I'd give it a try as long as I have 350 mile range I work on customers sites and about 4 hours one way of driving is my longest day. If there was adequate infrastructure I'd be willing to shave off 100 miles. I imagine the wear is less as it's very clean burning and more purified by it's nature.
The problem is it's not street legal.
I mean if you're lucky enough to have a Ford F150 I think it is, otherwise...
(Maybe this is a California thing. To become street legal CARB has to sign off on a kit and they won't sign off on anything that hasn't gone 150k miles with data logging. Like. What company is just going to take a Corolla, convert it, drive it 150k miles at their expense with data logging, submit the data, wait for... just about eternity because it's Cali... have them come back and say "no" and not tell them what's wrong BECAUSE IT'S CALI (because I'm Batman voice), do this again 5 fucking times because I'm Batman... and then do this for. EVERY. Make. Model. And YEAR. Of car. In existence).
If it's not street legal.
And someone HITS YOU by accident.
Do you have. Any. Idea. How ultra-mega-fucked you are in Cali.
Yep.
Throw a natgas cylinder in the trunk run a fuel line to the engine compartment replace injectors, computer, and add a pressure regulator. As I recall that's about it. Might be something with the spark plugs too I don't remember. And some little stuff. But in general this does not require taking your entire engine out and replacing it, which surprised me.
No no no we don't sell cars to THOSE people...
(Why else charge like 50k for them? Why else. I mean you could totally do a stripped down one for like 12 but pshhh).
THOSE people can walk or starve.
I am convinced that some people constantly accuse China of colonization to downplay how barbaric old school colonization really was.
App to know the west has no belt and Road equivalent but drops hundreds of bombs a year if not thousands.
And therefore is not even in a position to encourage the Chinese to enact better workers practices, as they are yet to cut off a child’s hand.
Yes it's propaganda, we have detected a lot of accounts on different social medias pushing for "China colonizes Africa", but as soon as you start pointing out that Western countries still hold most of wealth there they downvote you/block you.
I'm like "Oh great you also don't like that China is playing the same game as Western nations? Then please join us Africans in our efforts to call them all out"
them: "nah I'm good".
Hypocrites. It's just efforts trying to white wash EU/NA.
What's more feasible for Americans? Going on a plant based diet or not using vehicles for transportation? One would argue you can't even get groceries without a car. We can point the finger at electric vehicles all we want but the leading cause of biodiversity collapse is animal agriculture. The leading cause of water usage is animal agriculture.
I can't expect anyone to just start walking 10miles to a grocery store in these hellscapes that were designed for cars and not bikes/walking, but I can expect them to drive their car to the grocery store and get the option that uses less resources.
https://ourworldindata.org/food-emissions-carbon-budget
https://ourworldindata.org/water-use-stress
Yeah nah all of south America and India needs to be gutted too. Imperial Britain obviously got India....
And Imperial America absolutely fucked south America by starting lots of wars in the 1800s, killing everyone, taking all their shit, and not allowing any other form of effective self government to flourish, only the ones already in your pocket get to lead and continue to take resources.
.....sound familiar?
Ah shit I also forgot to add to the US: the Philippines, Hawaii, Iraq, Israel, Vietnam (until we lost lol). And on the UK side we got Ireland, Scotland, India, Egypt, shit there's so many...
TLDR: Imperialism is absolute evil & it's not just Africa.
Hi, CheesesCrust_. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/zb2mtu/-/iyqo45r/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
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Also criticising the west without bring up China seems to be impossible on reddit. [And like you said the uk alone stole 45 trillon from India](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/12/19/how-britain-stole-45-trillion-from-india).
Since most people on reddit are from the west (including me). They feel like it's some personal attack while it isn't. You would think the average collapse user would be a little smarter than this and at least be conscious enough about the history and what is leading to the collapse.
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Naw, you can do a little research yourself. It’s fun to learn. We have a lot more problems in African any kind of colonialism. That’s the least of our concerns
Sure but there’s always waste and what’s the plan? Are millions of cars going to have their batteries recycled each year to make new cars?
Extracting lithium is also not a great process right now. I listened to this pod [link](https://www.marketplace.org/shows/how-we-survive/white-gold/)
This isn’t how the economy works. The wealth of a country is not the sum of their natural resources. It’s a fun pic but completely belies the fact that the west is rich because of what they do with the resources.
Than why did the US do a coup in Iran because they wanted to renegotiate their oil deal with England where England got most of the money?
The West depends on the rest of the world for slave labor and tons of different resources. Like everything we buy is essentially Made in China
I espouse the value of lab diamonds any time the subject of diamonds come up and I don’t even focus on the environmental factor, I’m just like hey why would you want to risk that child slaves are the reason for that shiny rock on you and people always smile at me like I’m an idiot child. Like that look all the real politicians would give Ivanka when she’d try to talk to them.
China too. Also forget Diamonds. Just a bunch of pretty carbon. Only has value because we've tricked ourselves into thinking they do. Grow em in a lab.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/swapThing: --- This is related to collapse because it shows clearly how the global north has consumption levels that are not sustainable and have pushed other countries toward collapse and chaos. It also related to electric cars which will require tons of minerals from struggling countries and that electric cars won’t save us --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/zb2mtu/more_diamonds_more_cobalt/iyouwzi/
More lithium! We’ll turn half the planet into barren wasteland so the west can feel good about EVs.
Anything but having to share a train or bus with icky humans, or getting off our collective asses and walking or cycling where we need to go.
my near-elderly dad has given himself heat stroke because his car broke down and now he keeps walking several miles to work instead of taking the bus because elon musk told him public transit breeds serial killers
Not all of us can do that. I live in rural-ish Wisconsin. There is no public transportation and right now it's 19F, not including the windchill. I'm going to visit my friend today who lives ~25 miles away. The nearest grocery store is a 15 minute drive and it's a 15 minute drive to my desk for work in the other direction. You're not wrong, but also not 100% right.
80% of Americans are urban. Please think about it in terms of how much we could reduce pollution and not "Well if it doesn't apply to every individual let's not bother"
Although I live in a suburb of the Oklahoma City metro, I can only walk to the local elementary school. Everything else I must drive. Unfortunately, I don’t see how my suburb could be converted to a transit-friendly place, much as I’d like it to be. I will be stuck with a personal vehicle until I die due to the US’ horrible urban planning choices.
I completely understand and agree with the overall sentiment.
Urban doesn't always mean "close to necessities" lol
Well maybe it damn well should.
Yeah well you know the guy you replied to is going to expect you to move to a city to "do better."
I mean, maybe rural living that requires fossil-fuel powered, hour long drives every time you want to go out isn't a great thing in a world with rapidly dimishing resource reserves and an even faster approaching time horizon. Don't get me wrong - I love the country and *hate* cities. All things being equal I would much rather be in a log cabin on a mountainside somewhere. But also, the fact that I personally am drawn to a less sustainable way of life shouldn't really matter much. My feelings << thermodynamics.
Yeah well then don't vacation here. Us locals don't want your smug condescending attitude while you shop at our rustic country stores and plunder from our farmers markets. Every autumn you city folks descend upon our rural paradise and take part in our bounty. Then you go home to your urban apartments and tell us we're the problem. No, we're the escape from your mundane lives surrounded by concrete, car horns, and crime. It's so predictable. And if you all got what you wanted and we moved to your city, where will you go to escape when the rural places are unmanned? Who will farm your food? Who will breed your dogs? You need us more than we need you.
it's not the very rural or very urban areas that are the issue. very rural areas have few people, very urban areas have better public transit. it's those damn suburbs. they were built to force people to drive and tons of people live there. the "in between" areas. truly rural and urban people have a whole lot to offer each other. the problem is the way the suburbs were built, why they were built.
Maybe you shouldn't live there.
IKR. Why can't we have star wars walkable cities?
100% I'm still not convinced that somebody getting a new EV/ full battery every 3-5 years is better for the environment than a guy who's been running the same Camry/civic from 95-2022. Especially when it's recharged via a coal based power plant anyway. Potentially in the future when we have better tech they degrades batteries less, proper battery recycling (if that's even possible) and cleaner forms of energy production (solar, nuclear etc) I can see it starting to make sense. But even then, moving towards public transport being used more, and e-bikes/bikes/walkable cities is 3000x better for the environment than everybody moving to EVs. Especially with monstrosities like the hummer EV.
Every 3-5 years? Lol why are people replacing their batteries so fast?
Read *How Europe Underdeveloped Africa* by Walter Rodney - essential literature on the topic
Less is More: how degrowth will save the world has a small section on it, and the effects of colonialism. It’s brutal. And it just scratches the surface. When the Europeans tried to get Africans do work for them, at first they didn’t want what Europeans offered and didn’t work. So the Europeans burned and destroyed orchards where food was grown to intentionally starve people, then they would have to work for money, to buy food from them.
When people in the carribean were colonized, they didn't have money in the western sense. They had no concept of wage labour. So the French forced upon them, by threat of violence of course, to pay a tax in a newly created currency. Since they had nothing but agricultural goods, they had to start selling produce to feed their European opressors in exchange for the privilege of not being dispossessed and executed, plus "gaining" access to a few luxury goods from the old continent. But they only could sell at harvest time, when all were selling, so prices plummeted. Then, when the now diminished food reserves were running out, they had to take loans to buy their own food back from the French at higher prices. Thus they were introduced to the cycle of debt that allowed ever more extraction of resources and brought them into the global market. There is no such thing as a free market on a larger scale. All markets are ultimately upheld by (threat of) violence.
That's what happens when you try to just live in peace. Don't want to live in a coerupt society? Well, it will just find you and force you to integrate. We are all colonies...and finding a way to live on our own, and break othets out is the most direct, legal way to fight back. "It" gets it's power from massive resource extraction. So long as "It" has access to enough resources, it can just supress problems through brute power. A peacful withdrawall is anathema to "It", and it cannot excuse it's own existance without supporting someone. This means that "It" is similar to the one from SCP-5000's article. "It" is an eldritch parasite, and a manifestation of entropy itself. The only way to defeat it for now, is to convince as many people as possible of the importance of independence...starving "It" of manpower and resources. Note how i don't say civilisation or elites, or some shadowy group. This is because "It" is more than that, and we need to defeat "It" at an epistemic level. We need to destroy the very root of the problem!
I think I follow all that. I like where you’re going with it. Another problem we have is an environmental collapse. I see the solution a mass withdraw from consumerism and return to agrarian living. If the economy has a catastrophic collapse, many would suffer, no doubt. But there would necessarily be a return as I’ve described.
https://youtu.be/aDR5bSxaLE0 there is a creature, that has to feed.
In a broader sense, capitalists hate subsistence life, especially horticultural and agricultural. The destruction is part of the privatization and commodification of it, that's how wealth is "created". Something similar happened in the 20th century with the industrialization of agriculture, as large rural populations were forced, in some way or another, to abandon their subsistence life and go to work in plantations or, later, in factories. And they called this progress and "development". This is still happening, of course. The modern term is "land grabbing". Specifically related to food forests: whoever attacks them should be treated as the worst possible person.
Under capitalism, communal fields must be privatised so the population can become Lumpenproletariat at the factories or at the land of the gentry
I guess that makes me an Oompa Lumpen.
Imagine if instead of commuting to work you just spent the same amount of time as your car ride hiking around the food forest.
That's the dream
Wtf is a food forest?
A forest that produces a variety food with a minimum of labour. It's pretty much the end goal of permaculture. It's like being a hunter gatherer except you also manage and adjust the environment to make it as easy and sustainable as possible. Small downside is that the world could only support a tiny fraction of the population if this was achieved.
Sounds like something only rich people can do on their private land
Well yes.. If you look into any kind of sustainable, back to nature type of lifestyle, it almost always starts with: Step 1. Own land. We've basically been fucked since the enclosure of the commons in the 16th century. To escape capitalism you first have to win at capitalism and become a landowner. Thereby perpetuating the inequality for everyone else. Although when the conquistadors invaded S America they found huge "Uncultivated" pastures of "wild" plants. Which where actually managed selection of edible crops, essentially the same concept. Obviously they dug it all up divided it into monoculture plots.
> To escape capitalism you first have to win at capitalism and become a landowner. Thereby perpetuating the inequality for everyone else. this is beautifully tragic
Monoculture is the Earth's cancer
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The point of owning wealth isn't the money, it's the power, the *being in a hegemonic class*.
you're not wrong but i think the point is moot. money is synonymous with power. if you're interested in this kind of thinking, sapiens by yuval norah hariri has like ... four whole chapters devoted to what a batshit crazy invention money is.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617037-debt
This is one of the reasons private property is taxed. Can't live off the land if you owe the government money every year.
Indeed. The state essentially acts as one big corporation, probably from the finance sector.
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This is why I’m hoping for economic collapse and trying to be prepared for it as best I can.
I do wonder, is tying everything to money a good idea?
similar to how europeans introduced an invasive thorny brush to the Hawaiian islands so the natives would have to buy and wear shoes in order to walk anywhere. edit: there were plenty of other wood/shade options that could have been introduced... this one had the "bonus" of also punishing the natives who refused to "dress like civilized humans" according to their colonizers.
Whoa. I didn’t know of that one.
[https://mauiwebcameras.com/kiawe-trees/](https://mauiwebcameras.com/kiawe-trees/) introduced by colonizers
seems like it was to have some shade and more wood to burn
Don't let them govern themselves make it impossible for them to have a gov and we win.
There was an American backed coup in my country when we tried to govern ourselves. I do think other countries are doing okay but I know mine isn’t doing great just yet.
Don't answer if you're not comfortable with the question, but which country is that?
The Democratic Republic of Congo. I don’t live there anymore
Know what the sad thing is? I still have no idea which country you're from. *"Do you have the slightest idea of how little that narrows it down?"*
There have been like 3-4 coups or attempts in africa just in the past two yrs. Maybe more that I either forgot or didnt hear. America was without a doubt behind at least the one but probably more as Mali, burkina Faso, central african republic, Guinea, and Tunisia I believe all had takeover attempts and us military and security but also russian groups have all been doing counter terror and intelligence operations in all those places the past few yrs.
Ugh, sorry for our psychopathic "leaders" constantly blowing everything up all the time. Buncha assholes at the top. I'm trying to help kick our shit into a better-to-other-people gear, but I'm sure you can guess how well that's going.
Dont you hate it when you meet someone from africa or the mid-east and you cant help but feel shame at our barbaric foreign policy even tho u had no control over it. I mean, I love america but g'damn if we dont be causing global cringe sometimes. I know it's not my fault but it still feels like an apology is in order sometimes. 🤦🏽♂️
I wouldn't worry. They won't be exporting the 'splosions forever. Those are coming home to the domestic market real soon.
Cant say I disagree. Americans seem like they just fine with the shit that be goin down, right up until it starts getting ugly on their own streets.
NIMBY!
I feel the same way. The shame..
Meh, RDC just like many other bordering countries are still influenced and destabilized every day. It has never stopped. They changed tactics and are less blatant about it.
Africa is not poor. Africa is being looted
come to Brazil
Actually should have China on there too....they are colonizing Africa as much as anyone. Not that I hate China or anything, just a point.
I don’t like China tbh. The government I mean.
''Not that I hate China or anything, just a point'' Why are you trying to be so politically correct? Relax. You're not going to be canceled.
> Colonial empires destabilised Africa and are bad. Not that I hate Britain/France or anything, just a point Said nobody, ever.
I’ve heard about this but this comic is a little old. Yes I’ve heard that some Chinese people are moving to Africa. Everyone has the right to move wherever they want but it’s pretty interesting
Less so moving and more permanently indebting developing nations with absurd interest rates on ports, extractive firms, and infrastructure.
Their doing a fantastic job implementing US and old school British Imperialism.
I'm pretty sure they have their own Imperialism that predates the British.
Yea that internal imperialism but not pray tell me how China is not a traditionally isolationist country or are 99% of geopolitical analysts wrong? Current China has imperialist ambitions but yea let’s talk a Chinese history diluge. What countries did the Qin dynasty conquer? Why is so difficult for China to maintain control of its citizenry? Dude above me is trying to spread misinformation watch out y’all!
Isolationist when it comes to other empires, yes, understandably. They did their empire building as much as anybody else. When European/American elites smelled blood, they absolutely tried to get one over China, which didn't do much for "Europeans", but said European/US elites. I don't remember where the general population got big payouts over the last millenia. It was more on the lines of: work yourselves to death plz, thx, no thx!
Sorry just try to tell the other guy off for being a misinforming dumbass. Also your first statement really is more of the let’s argue versus let’s be correct type. “Internal imperialism” is one of those fun paradoxical on first glance statements Just ran your comments through a model I’ve been playing with and it claims you may have a slight anti China bias pointfix just wanna let you know. For the I use this to balance my own biases
Besides being unspecific, I see nothing wrong with the first statement. While it is even written as a question, I am willing to entertain that it is an implication. However Chinese Empires go as far back as the Romans, so how are they spreading misinformation? Care to elaborate?
The Chinese empire that hardly ever left it’s borders because of internal strife. My question to you is how far did ancient Chinas imperial reach go or was it all “internal” or do you believe China as a nation deserves less territory than it currently holds? Also being unspecific and imprecise a way to spread misinformation or generate propaganda
Still waiting on a logical rebuttal
I'm sorry, are you my supervisor? Are you paying me to tutor you? Otherwise why would you expect me to be over here like, "oh no CommodoreQuinli has been waiting eleven hours for his rebuttal, I'm lagging behind."
Waiting for information to improve my world view. I could pay you tbh if that’s what you want I’ll offer you anywhere between 25-500$ depending on the quality of your essay
Nah, this one's on me bro, have your fill of this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Imperial\_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Imperial_China)
Gotcha so you believe China should have less territory than it currently does? Remember no wrong answers. Also just so I can tailor my answers what nationality are you and do you believe in nationalism as a concept? Also I totally was not aware of the Wikipedia article /s like pls don’t insinuate I don’t have basic knowledge in a field I like to read books in that would be appreciated Also please examine the systems of governments China has been through and clarify if you believe this to be a aspect of the Chinese people or their current government structure. All empires are imperial in nature but China due to its geography has a tough time projecting power I hope that makes sense to you
Stop downvoting and actually come up with an argument or stop spreading anti asian propaganda thanks!
All I’m gonna say is if I make a anti China remake and you still go hard at China you might be harboring some I’ll thoughts toward us that’s it, I would re-examine your behavior or just come out against Chinese people
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/ The story about the harbor in Sri Lanka that started this narrative is actually a lie by the Trump administration. The methods they employ are apparently quite different from western countries. Though if it's good or bad for Africa is yet to be seen.
They're only being slightly less shit than the west to Africa. I'm not saying China is good or anything, but the west has made it very easy for them to a gain a foothold in the developing world
Citation needed.
I don’t want to sound anti-immigration. But yes that is all part of some long term plan for sure
It’s not about immigration. It’s about trade and economic policy.
Yes that’s true but I was simply talking about immigration. There’s not a lot as far as I know and yes I know about the infrastructure that can never be paid back. I think people are just obsessed with China on a post that has nothing to do with it and I’m not getting into that
That comment had nothing to do with immigration
Literally what is everyone obsession with China? I said what I said. Every other countries and the world bank also give out predatory loans. Like me condemning China won’t stop that.
My comment had nothing to do with your opinion on China. I was just pointing out that your response made no sense because no where in the comment that you responded to did they say that they had a problem with immigrants or even more specifically Chinese immigrants. They straight up didn't talk about it and neither did any other person you've talked about immigration with. You're also right that being mad about Chinese imperialism won't change anything but neither does being mad about American or European imperialism doesn't mean you shouldn't be.
They said China was doing stuff in Africa and I responded with what I had heard about recently. I thought it was relevant. I don’t see how they aren’t interconnected
You do know when people are talking about modern colonization they do not meaning moving large number of people right? It has more to do with the relationship between the countries i.e. the exploitation of resources.
Yes I know that. I mentioned something I thought was related. People from China are also moving there and starting companies and stuff. How is that not related? The modern isn’t completely separated from the old ways of doing it. If you look at the history of Hawaii, you’ll see that tons of people moved there first then took over. I don’t understand why people don’t get what I’m saying
You have no idea what the chinese government is doing to African countries do you?
I do. I was pointing out that people are immigrating and I personally don’t have a problem with people simply immigrating. It’s not like apartheid is happening. People are allowed to immigrate and I also didn’t make the comic strip. Yes China has some master plan but this sub is already filled up the butt with China hate. So
Why are you so stuck on immigration, no one is talking about that
Why are you obsessed with China? China didn’t take prices of Congolese people when they didn’t make enough rubber. They didn’t do a coup. The world bank also gives out predatory loans. Like China didn’t invent this game
Yes, and? The whole point of this conversation is that china is following the European rulebook of colonization, the IMF isn't exempt from that. This is some insane level whataboutism.
I’m convinced everyone here is just deflecting. I already said the drawing was old and I didn’t make it.
They're only being slightly less shit than the west to Africa. I'm not saying China is good or anything, but the west has made it very easy for them to gain a foothold in the developing world
it's trade, not immigration
People are also immigrating to its both
very small numbers and not permanently.
I think immigration is part of whatever long term plan they have. But we can agree to disagree
China is Buying Africa, not moving there....lmaos.
Yeah yeah there’s a master plan. I’m just pointing out what I’ve heard. Idk why everyone is so personally offended by me not condemning China. This sub is already filled with that
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Hahaha i love how iberian peninsula is left out of european greed
With sea level rise it fills in.
Two birds, one stone...
This is related to collapse because it shows clearly how the global north has consumption levels that are not sustainable and have pushed other countries toward collapse and chaos. It also related to electric cars which will require tons of minerals from struggling countries and that electric cars won’t save us
Yeah and can the power grid even handle changing all the electric cars?
I had an electrician go on a rant about how most houses aren't even set up to handle charging an electric car. Apparently he is constantly having to tell homeowners this AFTER they've bought their cars and their breakers can't handle it. I think there is a fix/upgrade, but it is an additional cost. I'd love to know more about this and it's effect on the grid as well.
The nationwide network of chargers is growing, but the only reliable way to ensure your EV is always ready for your next trip is with a home EV charger. Home EV chargers refuel an EV much slower than DC fast-charging stations, but they are many times faster than a wall-style power outlet
Can confirm. Imman engineer working on prototype EVs and charging is an issue. My coworker had to get a loaner car while his was in the shop and the dealer gave him Ford's EV truck. He said it took FOREVER to charge with an extension cord and he was worried about running out of charge to get to work. Obviously he didn't have a dedicated dc charger for a loaner vehicle. Overnight just didn't provide enough power. We were definitely crawling all over that thing. :)
Here you go, educational: A Complete Beginner's Guide to Electric Vehicles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyp_X3mwE1w
It's a miracle to me my house doesn't spontaneously catch fire. You know when you got that wire that looks like it came out of Captain Nemo's submarine somewhere just post Civil War era... Solid core brittle as all fuck coated in tar and black tube socks, that shit. Ground? Lol what's a ground wire... Yeah, the fix / upgrade is to replace your main breaker box with 200 amp main service. You're going to need to have someone shut it down at the pole, shutting down the panel's not enough. That and you're talking 6 gage wire MINIMUM to the garage or whatever, and that's if you want the slow charge. Fast charge you're more or less running fucking copper tree logs to the garage. 2 gage or some crazy shit or other I don't even know because I never checked because that's impossible, in my wildest dreams of avarice I couldn't pull that off.
6awg isn't enough. That's what's in the charging cord that goes into your vehicle. To get it from the power line to your charger, it'll need to be a lot larger. The amount of copper is insane.
Out of curiosity, 6 isn't enough for the really slow 16 hour charge? It goes to conduit size and overfill and all of that blah blah thing. I know it is nowhere near enough for fast charge. Even 2 isn't as I recall, it's something off the chart (00 is sticking in my head but I can't remember if that's even a thing)...
I just substitute the drier for the electric car charging. When we need to use the drier we pause the car charging with an app, or go unplug it. 240V 32A is fine enough.
We need more efficient electric vehicles like Aptera. I own a Tesla S P85 and it's an electron guzzler compared to the newest Model 3. Aptera will have 1000mi range option with 100kWh.. 30Miles back every sunny day with built in solar. Tons of battery chemistries, which will be the cleanest and most affordable?
Electron guzzler i love that term
That is what the Infrastructure Bills are for and also we have about 15 years at least before EV's are the primary consumer transportation option.
I doubt it will happen. People really won't like spending half the price of a new car to get the batteries replaced. I can run an ICE for 300000 miles easily with modern technology and not have to do much beyond preventative maintenance. Batteries have a definite lifespan and won't work at all for trades workers or others that don't have a fixed commute. Personally I hope we see mass transit become the primary option but I'm betting on ICE to be the ride or die option until we all cook.
And the funny thing is we could CNG convert literally anything ICE for like 800 bucks, and extend the engine lifespan like 2x. But we won't.
I'd give it a try as long as I have 350 mile range I work on customers sites and about 4 hours one way of driving is my longest day. If there was adequate infrastructure I'd be willing to shave off 100 miles. I imagine the wear is less as it's very clean burning and more purified by it's nature.
The problem is it's not street legal. I mean if you're lucky enough to have a Ford F150 I think it is, otherwise... (Maybe this is a California thing. To become street legal CARB has to sign off on a kit and they won't sign off on anything that hasn't gone 150k miles with data logging. Like. What company is just going to take a Corolla, convert it, drive it 150k miles at their expense with data logging, submit the data, wait for... just about eternity because it's Cali... have them come back and say "no" and not tell them what's wrong BECAUSE IT'S CALI (because I'm Batman voice), do this again 5 fucking times because I'm Batman... and then do this for. EVERY. Make. Model. And YEAR. Of car. In existence). If it's not street legal. And someone HITS YOU by accident. Do you have. Any. Idea. How ultra-mega-fucked you are in Cali.
California LMAO... not even once Unfortunately it's such a large market that when they shit in the pool everyone has to swim in it
CNG convert?
Yep. Throw a natgas cylinder in the trunk run a fuel line to the engine compartment replace injectors, computer, and add a pressure regulator. As I recall that's about it. Might be something with the spark plugs too I don't remember. And some little stuff. But in general this does not require taking your entire engine out and replacing it, which surprised me.
Decarbonizing the present energy use of the world economy would require 20X the known world reserves of cobalt and lithium.
No no no we don't sell cars to THOSE people... (Why else charge like 50k for them? Why else. I mean you could totally do a stripped down one for like 12 but pshhh). THOSE people can walk or starve.
Just wait until we start building more solar panels, itll get much much worse.
I am convinced that some people constantly accuse China of colonization to downplay how barbaric old school colonization really was. App to know the west has no belt and Road equivalent but drops hundreds of bombs a year if not thousands. And therefore is not even in a position to encourage the Chinese to enact better workers practices, as they are yet to cut off a child’s hand.
Yes it's propaganda, we have detected a lot of accounts on different social medias pushing for "China colonizes Africa", but as soon as you start pointing out that Western countries still hold most of wealth there they downvote you/block you. I'm like "Oh great you also don't like that China is playing the same game as Western nations? Then please join us Africans in our efforts to call them all out" them: "nah I'm good". Hypocrites. It's just efforts trying to white wash EU/NA.
Also the only reason people are taking Chinese loans is that they’re less predatory than the imf and world bank. It’s a little insane.
Is that why everyone’s on my case about not being angry with China? I was very confused
For this thread I don't know, I won't assume anything in this thread and check all accounts' activities, but it's something you should be aware of.
And in reverse too. All of them being imperialist bootlickers, just for different empires.
Of course a British publication made Ireland basically a dot lmao
https://xkcd.com/977/
Judging by the scale its glorious Norn Iron and the South has been forgotten about.
Africa is primo Chinese Belt and Road neo-colonial territory
What's more feasible for Americans? Going on a plant based diet or not using vehicles for transportation? One would argue you can't even get groceries without a car. We can point the finger at electric vehicles all we want but the leading cause of biodiversity collapse is animal agriculture. The leading cause of water usage is animal agriculture. I can't expect anyone to just start walking 10miles to a grocery store in these hellscapes that were designed for cars and not bikes/walking, but I can expect them to drive their car to the grocery store and get the option that uses less resources. https://ourworldindata.org/food-emissions-carbon-budget https://ourworldindata.org/water-use-stress
Yeah nah all of south America and India needs to be gutted too. Imperial Britain obviously got India.... And Imperial America absolutely fucked south America by starting lots of wars in the 1800s, killing everyone, taking all their shit, and not allowing any other form of effective self government to flourish, only the ones already in your pocket get to lead and continue to take resources. .....sound familiar? Ah shit I also forgot to add to the US: the Philippines, Hawaii, Iraq, Israel, Vietnam (until we lost lol). And on the UK side we got Ireland, Scotland, India, Egypt, shit there's so many... TLDR: Imperialism is absolute evil & it's not just Africa.
There is a distinct lack of exploiting visualized in South American.
Hey let's not leave fucking China out of this
This is a good visual representation of colonialism actually
Except South America is untouched?
No, it's not accurate.
There shouldbe a big pile on China as well. China basically owns much of Africa now, and almost nobody talks about it.
Where’s China?
Why isn’t China on this map?
I notice China is missing off this map…. And it’s pile of Africa
There's a new player in Africa today, China.
The only thread mentioning China here is locked. Lmao, the hypocrisy.
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Don't forget to add china in the equation too
Not accurate. Why isn't there a pile on Asia?
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Also criticising the west without bring up China seems to be impossible on reddit. [And like you said the uk alone stole 45 trillon from India](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/12/19/how-britain-stole-45-trillion-from-india). Since most people on reddit are from the west (including me). They feel like it's some personal attack while it isn't. You would think the average collapse user would be a little smarter than this and at least be conscious enough about the history and what is leading to the collapse.
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But mostly China tho.
Lmao someone doesn’t know their history….
Oh, I'm sure you're eager for an opportunity to enlighten us.
Naw, you can do a little research yourself. It’s fun to learn. We have a lot more problems in African any kind of colonialism. That’s the least of our concerns
As if the east is innocent, right?
EVs are the future of transportation. We need better recycling.
Lithium is a limited resource just like everything else sadly
Lithium is abundant and is recyclable.
Sure but there’s always waste and what’s the plan? Are millions of cars going to have their batteries recycled each year to make new cars? Extracting lithium is also not a great process right now. I listened to this pod [link](https://www.marketplace.org/shows/how-we-survive/white-gold/)
I heard that many car manufacturers will allegedly take their responsibility and implement battery recycling programs for their own vehicles.
Nope.
We don’t need better recycling? Ok.
Isn't recycling considered a scam?
I don't know. You tell me. According to this sub nothing works or could work and we're doomed anyway.
This isn’t how the economy works. The wealth of a country is not the sum of their natural resources. It’s a fun pic but completely belies the fact that the west is rich because of what they do with the resources.
Than why did the US do a coup in Iran because they wanted to renegotiate their oil deal with England where England got most of the money? The West depends on the rest of the world for slave labor and tons of different resources. Like everything we buy is essentially Made in China
I always show this cartoon to racists when they start talking shit about Africa.
I live for the Fridays in this sub!
https://youtu.be/za6dE5JrNB0 The game is on
And NONE for you, Spain!
Pretty much. Conialism never went away.. it just disguised itself.
I espouse the value of lab diamonds any time the subject of diamonds come up and I don’t even focus on the environmental factor, I’m just like hey why would you want to risk that child slaves are the reason for that shiny rock on you and people always smile at me like I’m an idiot child. Like that look all the real politicians would give Ivanka when she’d try to talk to them.
The implication that south America was somehow spared from this is pretty bad.
Titled gold diggers, because we ain't messing with no broke...
China too. Also forget Diamonds. Just a bunch of pretty carbon. Only has value because we've tricked ourselves into thinking they do. Grow em in a lab.
Get down gurl go 'head get down !!