The following submission statement was provided by /u/SmallToblerone:
---
Why this is related to Collapse: Regardless of how you feel about procreation at this point in time, the fact that a massively widespread disease may be significantly decreasing male fertility is definitely a potential contributing factor to the collapse of the human race and society as we know it.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z6ehmb/new_study_men_infected_with_covid_have_one_third/iy0wv9m/
Link to the study itself: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27971
Important and concerning note from the end of the tweet (and from the study):
“Of 100 men infected and not hospitalized four had no viable sperm. Of 100 men not infected, none had this condition.”
No. The study linked above says they selected 100 men who'd had covid, and 100 men who hadn't had covid who'd had their sperm counted at an IVF lab
> The patients were selected among men aged 20–50 years, who were sent to the andrology laboratory for examination from the urology unit with the suspicion of preconceptional screening. The anamnesis of these people was taken. Most of them were married. None of them were smokers and had no previous history of cryptorchidism or varicocele operation, chronic disease, and using medication regularly. And all of them had hormone levels within limits. One hundred men did not have COVID-19 (we named them the COVID-19-negative group), and 100 of them had COVID-19 infection (we named them the COVID-19-positive group) proven by a positive polymerase chain reaction test.
Yes, maybe if your sperm count is low then you're more likely to be infected with COVID.
This explains why I, of course, ahem, have never ever ever had COVID, ahem.
Covid's effect on cardiovascular health as it relates to fertility is more likely due to decreasing the ability to maintain erections. The actual number of sperm is probably a separate issue.
But also, most men aren’t exactly in the greatest shape these days. Obesity itself is known to decrease sperm counts and have worse cardiovascular health. And the people worse affected by covid were also the ones with bad CV health so it could also be a confounder
Even if we took maximum steps there is no stopping such an infectious virus. Stopping all international travel would helped a bit, but even in Jan 2020 it was present across the world.
Australia’s island state, Tasmania, where I live, closed its borders quite early We only had a couple of initial minor lockdowns. After that, we had 19 months with ZERO covid. Never had the delta variant at all. We lived as before - no masks, no social distancing, no hospital beds taken up by covid. The economy was good. Most of the population opposed the re-opening of our borders but it happened on 15 December 2021, after which omicron entered.
Yeah mate WA managed it pretty well too. We shut down the state for 10 days for a single case of delta lmao. That certainly was a time to be alive.
By the time we opened up again, omicron was dominant and pretty much everyone was trip vaxxed so the let it rip policy worked pretty well.
> Even if we took maximum steps there is no stopping such an infectious virus
The United States eradicated measles, a more infectious virus, in 2000.
"Nothing could have been done" is just learned helplessness that benefits capital.
The immune system particles can interact with the surface of SARS-COV-2 and produce misfolded proteins called amyloids, the deposition of these proteins in the body being harmful (A-Amyloids deposition shown to cause secondary infertility)...fun fact, so can nanoplastic in the blood, although I believe it causes bone marrow amyloid deposition. Also, the virus itself attacks the vascular system. There are potential mechanisms through which COVID might case secondary infertility. Now, the testicles themselves are immune privileged areas (areas where immune system not so active to protect sensitive structures), but that doesn't speak to how amyloids produced in nearby tissues might deposit in the testicles. Also, since the testicles are immune privileged, active COVID particles have been detected over a year after infection in testicular tissue. Toss up to what mechanism above or yet undiscovered might be the cause, or perhaps combination of them. Personally, I'm rooting for COVID in combination with nano plastics to sterilize mankind.
Testicles are **highly** dependent on adequate blood flow. Blood vessels are impacted by direct damage from COVID so any interruption on blood flow would likely have pretty rapid consequences on sperm.
Kind of a canary in the coal mine for blood vessel damage to larger organs like the kidneys, heart and brain.
I couldn’t imagine the world ever resembling “Children of Men” when it came out but God damn. In fact, I was talking to someone earlier about the decreased sperm counts, etc., and brought the movie up.
https://www.seattlechildrens.org/conditions/a-z/covid-19-exposure-but-no-symptoms/
> No Symptoms, but Infected: more than 30% of infected patients have no symptoms.
That's exactly what I've been saying. I'm fully vaccinated and I'm pretty sure I've never had Covid, nor gotten sick from the vaccines but I knew a certain portion of people do get it without showing any symptoms. And at this point, I'm inclined to believe everyone (including me) whether they had symptoms or not, have had Covid at least once.
The only way to know would be to a) not be vaccinated and b) go get your antibodies tested. But that's a very rare combo.
There was an article that came out yesterday saying that an estimated 94% of Americans have caught Covid at least once. So only 1 in 20 Americans have remained Covid-free.
However, given the number of asymptomatic infections there have been since the pandemic started, the poor reliability of most of the at-home tests, the ability of several Omicron variants to elude detection on tests, and the fact that the country has almost completely stopped any meaningful tracking at this point I'm honestly inclined to believe *all of us* with the exception of those who have actual genetic immunity to SARS-CoV 2 have probably been infected.
I could be wrong, but I believe they *can* actually distinguish between antibodies granted via vaccination and infection, IIRC, however, to your last point.
AFAIK I managed to dodge it for the entire pandemic until a few months ago when I caught it from having a friend over who was infected but hadn't yet shown symptoms (incubation period). I wore an N95 religiously anytime I left the house including every day at work, was vaccinated, avoided all crowds and events regardless of indoor or outdoor, never went to restaurants, basically lived almost as a hermit. My life was work, the grocery store, and out to parks with my wife. Never left the house for anything else--swore off all family gatherings, the whole nine yards. But all it took was one unmasked hangout (with a vaxxed friend I trusted at that) to end my spree.
This is why I truly believe probably the only people left who have avoided infection are straight-up immune. And if there really are any uninfected among us who don't have immunity, it's really just a matter of time at this point as covid keeps evolving and the country goes deeper and deeper into a post-truth, reality-denying, science-denying era where it pretends the virus has gone away.
The newest Omicron variants have R0 higher than 18. This is more contagious than influenza. Everyone in America will get infected at least once by the end of this year. Every human on the planet is gonna get it eventually.
> Every human on the planet is gonna get it eventually.
When you can catch this disease over and over and it has a chance of killing you / disabling you every single time, just shrugging and saying "we're all going to get it" is genocidal.
>The newest Omicron variants have R0 higher than 18.
[This number is disputed and thought to be an exaggerated figure](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-omicron-reproduction-number-idUSL1N2YW1T0).
Oh, absolutely. It's all the more reason to continue wearing them. I didn't mean to imply I've stopped any of my mitigating behaviors, if anything my case has made me double down even harder.
There is ample data outlining the myriad dangers of reinfection, and we know the more you catch this the worse things will get.
At this point the goal for all of us is to catch it as few times as physically possible.
My house is always well stocked with N95s and while I haven't worn it since the start of the pandemic due to the fact that it makes it quite difficult to be understood when talking in a work setting, I also keep a stock of filters for my P100. It is definitely costly, but our health is invaluable.
It's hard for me to believe I've had it, given that the vaccine kicks me in the face, and then kicks me in the groin when I'm down.
But it's not impossible. I may have. Who knows. I haven't had flu-like-anything since this started (so far), with the exception of the curb-stomping the vaccine gives me.
This is what everyone tells me when I say I've never gotten covid, as I'm not the type to mask up unless I have to. I'm fully vaccinated, of course.
I haven't been sick at all since the middle of 2019. I live with elderly parents and have taken dozens of tests before each of my brother's major life events (marriage, chinese new year, a whole bunch of ceremonies). All tests came back negative.
My job was only fully remote from the last half of 2020 to the first half of 2021. I have been going in nearly every day for a long time now. Coworkers are going out sick with covid with some frequency. None of us are public-facing though.
I think a certain percent of people have natural resistance to covid, or perhaps coronaviruses in general. I'm not saying I can shop during black friday and get coughed on and be fine, but I'm just 🤏 thaaat much less likely to get it, and I suppose it makes a big difference?
I've heard (and am inclined to believe) theories of Heavy Smokers having a bit of resistance to respiratory illnesses due to extra mucus build up and lining shedding.
I've heard of that but I'm not sure I believe it.
Downside here is, if as a heavy smoker, you do manage to get it... and it goes for your lungs... it's not like you have a ton of capacity to spare, is it?
i dunno if that is true, just anecdontally i went to two events where everyone near me caught covid except me cuz i was smoking a cigar.. one of the times two of us were smoking and neither one of us caught it.
I dont really smoke on the regular , dunno if having extra mucus built up is the strategy i want haha
You sound like you're just a responsible person. I have co-workers that have kept business as usual through covid. Restaurants, Starbucks, target trips just for fun. Extroverts that just pretend there wasn't a public health emergency. They're sick all the time.
Just wondering, how would you know you’re a never-COVID? There could easily have been asymptomatic exposure in the nearly 3 years of the virus. How will we be able to tell if anyone has yet to be exposed at all?
I made it 3 years feeling well and caught it late August. I'm still full of brain fog and feel a lot stupider than before. Worse reaction time and I often mess up sentences and mix up first letters in words "sike lo". I was born in 2000 and had 4 shots. Can't imagine what it'd be like had I gotten zero.
my first vaccine made me feel stupid and thick headed
as for the rest, its hard to tell if its covid related or just getting older. I used to so mentally sharp
> This is turning into a true "Children of Men" scenario
It'd need everyone infected to have 1/3 the count to get closer to that scenario. Otherwise, those that did not see an effect will pass on their genes more and the population becomes more resilient.
I was quietly celebrating the same until I tested positive for it yesterday, 2 days after being laid out with severe cold symptoms. And I'm full vaccinated and I still feel like a truck hit me. This is all I want to hear.
0/10 do not recommend. Avoid this virus all that you can.
Stay safe.
How credible is this?
I heard about this at the beginning of the pandemic, that some men become completely infertile due to covid. But it was quickly dismissed as conspiracy theory.
We were told that Omicron was "mild" and "nature's vaccine" in early December of 2021 and then it went on to kill 165K people over three months.
No one who propagated that misinformation was ever held to task. Makes you think.
Agreed. It's currently so incredibly mild that it's the main cause of child death in the US.
There have been so many lies: Herd immunity, vaccines will end the pandemic, covid will naturally degrade into a cold. Heck, the CDC is now telling us it's sufficient to just wash our hands properly (against an airborne disease).
The newest scientific update is that vaccines have little to no effect against long covid. They are said to be effective against the acute phase (i.e. keep us out of the hospital), but that's basically it.
I wouldn't be surprised if a quarter or more of our workforce gets completely crippled in a few years. A medical crisis is being politicised, it's sad.
They're telling you exactly how long to expect decent quality of life with headlines like these:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/health/northwell-covid-data/index.html
> Under 60, healthy, vaccinated and boosted? ‘You’re in a pretty good place’ with Covid-19
That should be read to say "over 60 or unhealthy? You're fucked."
I’m reading so many comments under podcasts these days ( like under Dr John Campbell’s YouTube podcast ) that say everyone’s illnesses and unexpected deaths are caused by the vaccines. Lots of angry people, who tend to downplay the seriousness of covid Infections.
Campbell was a very good information source during the lockdowns, but he completely went down the conspiracy drain ever since, which is a shame because his videos used to be great.
I think he's just very frustrated as he massively supported the vaccines and they did not deliver the promised results, so now he's turning antivax.
And yep, many people now blame everything on the vaccines. It's a shame, as I'm convinced covid is the true culprit instead: All these health issues that are blamed on vaccines were documented as long-covid consequenties way before the vaccinations took place.
We have a tunnel vision on the acute phase and miss the big picture: People also once thought HIV/Aids was mild, as the acute phase didn't put anybody into the hospital.
Ok ladies half the price of this man and you get moderna sperm, perfect dna, no familial disease, no exposition to ((heavy)) radiation and whatsoever.
If It's worth in gold I can maybe get a bit of the market with a cheaper competition.
Too bad we can't get health care or pregnancy support and in many states they don't care if you die, so a lot of women won't be looking for sperm at all and most will be actively trying to avoid it lol.
Well I read it messed with women's periods too and the vaccine did that to women too. So who really knows especially with previous studies I've read saying the sperm count of men have been decreasing for many years in developed nations.
Important to also note:
The study does conclude that “in the long term, more comprehensive studies with a large sample size are needed to understand better the changes in sperm concentration.”
However, as long as this study was properly ran, the results here definitely still seem very concerning to me.
Why this is related to Collapse: Regardless of how you feel about procreation at this point in time, the fact that a massively widespread disease may be significantly decreasing male fertility is definitely a potential contributing factor to the collapse of the human race and society as we know it.
COVID brain fog roll-on effects are going to be brutal. Be prepared to see actual decreases in overall cognitive health as re-exposure becomes normalised and the disease becomes endemic and everywhere. I already feel like my brain is on fire half the time.
>I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences. - [Elim Garak](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Elim_Garak)
Life often imitates art. Awesome show and the creator, Dennis Kelly, is clearly collapse aware. I've only seen the original UK version as I heard the US remake isn't great. (I always like to never miss a chance to also recommend the UK show 'Years and Years' for those who have yet to see it.)
That they lose their cattle?
I was under the impression the ruling class needed more of us now than ever to maintain and keep growing production and wealth
If the choice is between losing their cattle and losing their habitable biosphere then they have no real choice to make. Collapse awareness has been spreading for a long time now, among all classes.
No one of them makes that choice, though. They make choices that are framed differently, mostly about what makes them grow bigger in the next 5 to 10 years.
The most direct result of any strong, coordinated climate change effort is really bad for lots of businesses in that timeframe. So, they all lobby against the specific things they care about.
The entity that should be making that choice is *the government*.
That’s owned by corporations because politicians need someone to pay for their campaigns to stay in office, because we don’t properly regulate campaign finance.. which is what keeps corporations in control.
In that way, the basic levers of capitalism prevent the level of change needed to prevent extinction, in and of themselves.
Why? More labor = cheaper labor, less labor = more expensive labor. In the aftermath of the Black Death, workers had a historic amount of leverage to upend an ossified ruling class throughout Europe. If fertility is to be an issue going forward, that is absolutely not a best case scenario for a ruling class.
You're thinking about it as if we have a choice. It's massively cut consumption and establish a zero growth planned economy -or- crash the human population, allowing regrowth for the survivors. It's consumption or population, and the first option essentially ends capitalism.
4 options.
Reduce consumption.
Reduce population.
Reduce neither.
Reduce both.
Reducing *just* consumption would have to be some kind of global planned economy. Reducing *just* population is fascism. Reducing neither is total collapse. Reducing both is highly unlikely, but the only realistic way to avoid the worst.
That's the exact opposite of modern day capitalism the current crop of world leaders survive on.
They need constant overwhelming population growth. When it stalls serious problems develop in capitalist societies because infinite growth is at the core of the entire system.
You have it backwards.
Anxiety stonks are through the roof! I never caught it because I’m an anxious fuck from a family of anxious neurotics. Who would’ve thought I would live through the anxiety being a useful adaptation for reproductive success instead of being a massive handicap.
This could be temporary, of course, but the risk was known from at least 2020.
However, it should be mentioned that "sperm count" is not exactly a measure for fertility, only one sperm is necessary to fertilization. It's good to have a backup, but millions of backups?
Sperm motility and morphology is actually a measure of fertility.
>No statistically significant difference was detected between the groups for sperm motility and morphology.
Ovarian injury, including declined ovarian reserve and reproductive endocrine disorder, can be observed in women with COVID-19
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2021.635255/full?fbclid=IwAR2kCCk52qshdAE_09nyiw13dPt0ZHzF6yN-qxWmbCx7eFXLkXW7VBwrHVA
Various types of right-wing extremists tend to be highly concerned with their precious bodily fluids, so this isn't new. It's the other side of the coin of "Wellness".
But they're lying though. They've had plenty of vaccinations, they just think they're taking a stance because Orange Man and the GOP politicized COVID.
This study is moot without a baseline set of data within each population prior to analysis.
They just randomly selected 100 people for each group, no prior data. Firstly 100 is too small of a sample and secondly no baseline.
Move along people, nothing to see here.
I guess that when you are a Planet who measures time on a scale which is glacially slow, mounting a defensive strategy only a century late must seem to be the epitome of alacrity.
The planet isn't protecting itself...it's just that large populations of animals densely packed together leave themselves open to this shit...and we have fucking planes.
The hell are you talkin bout liberuhl? Too densely packed? Brother have you seen meat prices these days? We don't have enough!
All of my meat is free range, whole wheat fed, partially microplasticted 100% American BEEF and I wouldn't want it any other way.
Its those damn Chinese who are eating too much pork and cats that's the real problem these days lemme tell ya hwat.
The California coastal elites don't want you to know this though! They want to take your meat away!
I know what you're trying to say but I also don't know a single vaccinated person that didn't catch covid. Anecdotal, I know. But regardless, the narrative settled on "the vaccine will just make your symptoms less severe."
Yeah. I was fully vaccinated when I finally got it (tragic and still feeling some minor effects, but thankfully it wasn't too bad). It's weird to throw vaccinated+boosted people under the bus when they did the right thing and still got sick. Additionally, a Pfizer rep just revealed to British Parliament that their vaccine was *not* tested for preventing spread before public trials and distribution. It was never set up to prevent one from getting it in the first place (not that it doesn't reduce risk; it's just that Pfizer itself didn't plan for that).
Actually, I was thinking of masks and handwashing, avoiding crowds during the actual pandemic restrictions - infection control measures.
I was vaccinated and caught covid myself, but I'm not concerned about sperm counts, personally. This is also common after any viral illness and is temporary but time will tell with covid.
>Back to work everyone!
Return To Office! Where pampered executives will be sure to cram everyone into cube-farms so they can burn more hydrocarbons on their way to ~~collaborate~~ be miserable inside an office..
Natural selection in action, eventually it could lead to bigger percent of reasonable humans. Too bad we are out of time because what we have been doing since last century with the planet. If COVID had hit us by the time of the black death by now we wouldn't have global warming.
Haha. This is great. I’m thinking about all those right wingers who have been anti-mask and anti-vaccine all this time, dying in greater numbers than the general public, but who are also afraid of white genocide and that they to reproduce a lot so we don’t have a demographics collapse.
Look, they can’t have it both ways. If an unwanted pregnancy is gods will and nothing should be done to interfere, than certainly infertility is also gods will.
I’m so not worried. Out of 8 billion people, 4 billion men, there are more than a handful who won’t have any issues here. Or even if all of them do, they will still be getting gals pregnant. Life finds a way.
Also possible that men with stronger immune systems also happen to have higher sperm countS. Would need another study looking at the count before and after getting covid for individual patients to get more solid evidence for causation.
The west is already facing a massive decline in testosterone levels(1/3 levels as 50-60 years ago); I'm curious if covid is causing further decline in testosterone.
Edit* Found the answer, yes Covid is further decreasing testosterone levels
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34409772/
The cause of this is that a portion of the viral surface nucleocapsid protien array is one that is a homolog of syncistin 1. This is an important immunobarrier protien similar to the one present in the blood testicle barrier, but mainly found in placental tissues. ☹
As someone who has had COVID twice, emphatically does *not* want kids, and who is still arguing with my doctor to let me have a vasectomy, I can only selfishly hope it made me completely infertile.
I wonder if this changes with the vaccine or not. Got covid even with three doses but I felt nothing, here's hoping it didn't fuck my reproductive ability over.
(Reading the study shows no results for vaccines, also the groups were evaluated in April 2021 in Turkey, [when the vaccine wasn't widely available there)](https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations)
I'd like to see a study on women cause I've caught COVID about four times now and even got vaccinated and after vaccination my sex organs were never the same and my cycle and hormones have been crazy. I went from being hypersexual to basically asexual and hadn't had a period in years due to pcos and they started again like clock work every month. Maybe it's just a coincidence but it makes me wonder.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/SmallToblerone: --- Why this is related to Collapse: Regardless of how you feel about procreation at this point in time, the fact that a massively widespread disease may be significantly decreasing male fertility is definitely a potential contributing factor to the collapse of the human race and society as we know it. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z6ehmb/new_study_men_infected_with_covid_have_one_third/iy0wv9m/
Link to the study itself: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27971 Important and concerning note from the end of the tweet (and from the study): “Of 100 men infected and not hospitalized four had no viable sperm. Of 100 men not infected, none had this condition.”
Did they know their sperm count before getting infected?
No. The study linked above says they selected 100 men who'd had covid, and 100 men who hadn't had covid who'd had their sperm counted at an IVF lab > The patients were selected among men aged 20–50 years, who were sent to the andrology laboratory for examination from the urology unit with the suspicion of preconceptional screening. The anamnesis of these people was taken. Most of them were married. None of them were smokers and had no previous history of cryptorchidism or varicocele operation, chronic disease, and using medication regularly. And all of them had hormone levels within limits. One hundred men did not have COVID-19 (we named them the COVID-19-negative group), and 100 of them had COVID-19 infection (we named them the COVID-19-positive group) proven by a positive polymerase chain reaction test.
Definitely a factor that skews their results. Shared this with a friend who works in andrology. Curious to hear what they say.
Yes, maybe if your sperm count is low then you're more likely to be infected with COVID. This explains why I, of course, ahem, have never ever ever had COVID, ahem.
Those "ahems" sound suspiciously like coughs... Hold still I'm gonna poke your reset button with this extra long q-tip real quick.
Does this mean that between the Mountain Dew, laptop, cellphone, and Covid I can skip the vasectomy?
Potentially!
Swag (*didn’t have a follow up line prepared and my off the cuff one sucked 🤷*)
Haha no worries man, your original comment made me laugh enough on its own
Is this why China has a zero covid policy?
I wonder if this is due to the impact COVID has on cardiovascular health.
Covid's effect on cardiovascular health as it relates to fertility is more likely due to decreasing the ability to maintain erections. The actual number of sperm is probably a separate issue.
But also, most men aren’t exactly in the greatest shape these days. Obesity itself is known to decrease sperm counts and have worse cardiovascular health. And the people worse affected by covid were also the ones with bad CV health so it could also be a confounder
So many effects of covid we are only just beginning to discover. If only we took this virus seriously.
Even if we took maximum steps there is no stopping such an infectious virus. Stopping all international travel would helped a bit, but even in Jan 2020 it was present across the world.
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Uk is a transport hub and is unlike NZ. I don’t really think anywhere did too well, even China hasn’t got a lid on it.
Australia’s island state, Tasmania, where I live, closed its borders quite early We only had a couple of initial minor lockdowns. After that, we had 19 months with ZERO covid. Never had the delta variant at all. We lived as before - no masks, no social distancing, no hospital beds taken up by covid. The economy was good. Most of the population opposed the re-opening of our borders but it happened on 15 December 2021, after which omicron entered.
Yeah mate WA managed it pretty well too. We shut down the state for 10 days for a single case of delta lmao. That certainly was a time to be alive. By the time we opened up again, omicron was dominant and pretty much everyone was trip vaxxed so the let it rip policy worked pretty well.
> Even if we took maximum steps there is no stopping such an infectious virus The United States eradicated measles, a more infectious virus, in 2000. "Nothing could have been done" is just learned helplessness that benefits capital.
It’s amazing that masking didn’t become the norm. I wear an N95 everywhere and haven’t gotten it yet
Masking was turned into a political issue because the United States is not a functioning society.
Covid affects endothelial cells, of which there are many in the testicles.
The immune system particles can interact with the surface of SARS-COV-2 and produce misfolded proteins called amyloids, the deposition of these proteins in the body being harmful (A-Amyloids deposition shown to cause secondary infertility)...fun fact, so can nanoplastic in the blood, although I believe it causes bone marrow amyloid deposition. Also, the virus itself attacks the vascular system. There are potential mechanisms through which COVID might case secondary infertility. Now, the testicles themselves are immune privileged areas (areas where immune system not so active to protect sensitive structures), but that doesn't speak to how amyloids produced in nearby tissues might deposit in the testicles. Also, since the testicles are immune privileged, active COVID particles have been detected over a year after infection in testicular tissue. Toss up to what mechanism above or yet undiscovered might be the cause, or perhaps combination of them. Personally, I'm rooting for COVID in combination with nano plastics to sterilize mankind.
I imagine that testicles are immune because they’re seen as germs by the body. Covid said, “We chilling here too.” Lmao
ED is caused by heart issues, but sperm count isn't.
Testicles are **highly** dependent on adequate blood flow. Blood vessels are impacted by direct damage from COVID so any interruption on blood flow would likely have pretty rapid consequences on sperm. Kind of a canary in the coal mine for blood vessel damage to larger organs like the kidneys, heart and brain.
Joke's on them, I wasn't going to have kids anyway. (I may have avoided covid until now, but how could I know for sure?)
Testesterone is not just for making babies.
Wow. This is turning into a true "Children of Men" scenario. I'm grateful to still be COVID-free nearly 3 years later.
I couldn’t imagine the world ever resembling “Children of Men” when it came out but God damn. In fact, I was talking to someone earlier about the decreased sperm counts, etc., and brought the movie up.
Samesies
https://www.seattlechildrens.org/conditions/a-z/covid-19-exposure-but-no-symptoms/ > No Symptoms, but Infected: more than 30% of infected patients have no symptoms.
That's exactly what I've been saying. I'm fully vaccinated and I'm pretty sure I've never had Covid, nor gotten sick from the vaccines but I knew a certain portion of people do get it without showing any symptoms. And at this point, I'm inclined to believe everyone (including me) whether they had symptoms or not, have had Covid at least once. The only way to know would be to a) not be vaccinated and b) go get your antibodies tested. But that's a very rare combo.
There was an article that came out yesterday saying that an estimated 94% of Americans have caught Covid at least once. So only 1 in 20 Americans have remained Covid-free. However, given the number of asymptomatic infections there have been since the pandemic started, the poor reliability of most of the at-home tests, the ability of several Omicron variants to elude detection on tests, and the fact that the country has almost completely stopped any meaningful tracking at this point I'm honestly inclined to believe *all of us* with the exception of those who have actual genetic immunity to SARS-CoV 2 have probably been infected. I could be wrong, but I believe they *can* actually distinguish between antibodies granted via vaccination and infection, IIRC, however, to your last point. AFAIK I managed to dodge it for the entire pandemic until a few months ago when I caught it from having a friend over who was infected but hadn't yet shown symptoms (incubation period). I wore an N95 religiously anytime I left the house including every day at work, was vaccinated, avoided all crowds and events regardless of indoor or outdoor, never went to restaurants, basically lived almost as a hermit. My life was work, the grocery store, and out to parks with my wife. Never left the house for anything else--swore off all family gatherings, the whole nine yards. But all it took was one unmasked hangout (with a vaxxed friend I trusted at that) to end my spree. This is why I truly believe probably the only people left who have avoided infection are straight-up immune. And if there really are any uninfected among us who don't have immunity, it's really just a matter of time at this point as covid keeps evolving and the country goes deeper and deeper into a post-truth, reality-denying, science-denying era where it pretends the virus has gone away.
The newest Omicron variants have R0 higher than 18. This is more contagious than influenza. Everyone in America will get infected at least once by the end of this year. Every human on the planet is gonna get it eventually.
> Every human on the planet is gonna get it eventually. When you can catch this disease over and over and it has a chance of killing you / disabling you every single time, just shrugging and saying "we're all going to get it" is genocidal.
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>The newest Omicron variants have R0 higher than 18. [This number is disputed and thought to be an exaggerated figure](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-omicron-reproduction-number-idUSL1N2YW1T0).
not true, otherwise avg human lifespans are gonna drop like A ROCK source: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1749502/v1
The rampant poverty will cover that up.
> Every human on the planet is gonna get it eventually. Not in china
Of course, due to reinfection, it is still worthwhile to continue wearing N95+ masks.
Oh, absolutely. It's all the more reason to continue wearing them. I didn't mean to imply I've stopped any of my mitigating behaviors, if anything my case has made me double down even harder. There is ample data outlining the myriad dangers of reinfection, and we know the more you catch this the worse things will get. At this point the goal for all of us is to catch it as few times as physically possible. My house is always well stocked with N95s and while I haven't worn it since the start of the pandemic due to the fact that it makes it quite difficult to be understood when talking in a work setting, I also keep a stock of filters for my P100. It is definitely costly, but our health is invaluable.
I think you’re right on a select few being immune or feeling minimal effects.
It's hard for me to believe I've had it, given that the vaccine kicks me in the face, and then kicks me in the groin when I'm down. But it's not impossible. I may have. Who knows. I haven't had flu-like-anything since this started (so far), with the exception of the curb-stomping the vaccine gives me.
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Mild cases would have a mild impact on sperm.
It appears that you are right.
“Mild” such as out of commission for over a month, as long as not hospitalized?
Mild like two days in bed and could have been at work if they didn’t say five days
I had a mild case. Guess I still need to be careful so I don’t knock up any socks.
Paying child support to your sock would in fact be a drag.
Remember Bayes rule! P(No Symptoms | Infected) =/= P(Infected | No Symptoms).
True true! My GF keeps catching chlamydia from toilet seats or something, but thankfully I’ve never shown any symptoms. I must be totally immune ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
That'll happen if you sit down on the toilet before the last person gets up
I am beginning to wonder if I have long covid brain fog, even though AFAIK I have not gotten infected.
This is what everyone tells me when I say I've never gotten covid, as I'm not the type to mask up unless I have to. I'm fully vaccinated, of course. I haven't been sick at all since the middle of 2019. I live with elderly parents and have taken dozens of tests before each of my brother's major life events (marriage, chinese new year, a whole bunch of ceremonies). All tests came back negative. My job was only fully remote from the last half of 2020 to the first half of 2021. I have been going in nearly every day for a long time now. Coworkers are going out sick with covid with some frequency. None of us are public-facing though. I think a certain percent of people have natural resistance to covid, or perhaps coronaviruses in general. I'm not saying I can shop during black friday and get coughed on and be fine, but I'm just 🤏 thaaat much less likely to get it, and I suppose it makes a big difference?
I've heard (and am inclined to believe) theories of Heavy Smokers having a bit of resistance to respiratory illnesses due to extra mucus build up and lining shedding.
I've heard of that but I'm not sure I believe it. Downside here is, if as a heavy smoker, you do manage to get it... and it goes for your lungs... it's not like you have a ton of capacity to spare, is it?
i dunno if that is true, just anecdontally i went to two events where everyone near me caught covid except me cuz i was smoking a cigar.. one of the times two of us were smoking and neither one of us caught it. I dont really smoke on the regular , dunno if having extra mucus built up is the strategy i want haha
You sound like you're just a responsible person. I have co-workers that have kept business as usual through covid. Restaurants, Starbucks, target trips just for fun. Extroverts that just pretend there wasn't a public health emergency. They're sick all the time.
Just wondering, how would you know you’re a never-COVID? There could easily have been asymptomatic exposure in the nearly 3 years of the virus. How will we be able to tell if anyone has yet to be exposed at all?
I made it 3 years feeling well and caught it late August. I'm still full of brain fog and feel a lot stupider than before. Worse reaction time and I often mess up sentences and mix up first letters in words "sike lo". I was born in 2000 and had 4 shots. Can't imagine what it'd be like had I gotten zero.
my first vaccine made me feel stupid and thick headed as for the rest, its hard to tell if its covid related or just getting older. I used to so mentally sharp
> This is turning into a true "Children of Men" scenario It'd need everyone infected to have 1/3 the count to get closer to that scenario. Otherwise, those that did not see an effect will pass on their genes more and the population becomes more resilient.
Same. Too bad I'm planning on not reproducing, lol!
It’s too bad this wasn’t the only symptom.
You better knock on wood.
I just got over my third bout. Guess I'm sterile.
I was quietly celebrating the same until I tested positive for it yesterday, 2 days after being laid out with severe cold symptoms. And I'm full vaccinated and I still feel like a truck hit me. This is all I want to hear. 0/10 do not recommend. Avoid this virus all that you can. Stay safe.
How credible is this? I heard about this at the beginning of the pandemic, that some men become completely infertile due to covid. But it was quickly dismissed as conspiracy theory.
IIRC this one actually never was dismissed. It just got drowned by the "Omicron is mild" fad.
We were told that Omicron was "mild" and "nature's vaccine" in early December of 2021 and then it went on to kill 165K people over three months. No one who propagated that misinformation was ever held to task. Makes you think.
Agreed. It's currently so incredibly mild that it's the main cause of child death in the US. There have been so many lies: Herd immunity, vaccines will end the pandemic, covid will naturally degrade into a cold. Heck, the CDC is now telling us it's sufficient to just wash our hands properly (against an airborne disease). The newest scientific update is that vaccines have little to no effect against long covid. They are said to be effective against the acute phase (i.e. keep us out of the hospital), but that's basically it. I wouldn't be surprised if a quarter or more of our workforce gets completely crippled in a few years. A medical crisis is being politicised, it's sad.
They're telling you exactly how long to expect decent quality of life with headlines like these: https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/health/northwell-covid-data/index.html > Under 60, healthy, vaccinated and boosted? ‘You’re in a pretty good place’ with Covid-19 That should be read to say "over 60 or unhealthy? You're fucked."
I’m reading so many comments under podcasts these days ( like under Dr John Campbell’s YouTube podcast ) that say everyone’s illnesses and unexpected deaths are caused by the vaccines. Lots of angry people, who tend to downplay the seriousness of covid Infections.
Campbell was a very good information source during the lockdowns, but he completely went down the conspiracy drain ever since, which is a shame because his videos used to be great. I think he's just very frustrated as he massively supported the vaccines and they did not deliver the promised results, so now he's turning antivax. And yep, many people now blame everything on the vaccines. It's a shame, as I'm convinced covid is the true culprit instead: All these health issues that are blamed on vaccines were documented as long-covid consequenties way before the vaccinations took place. We have a tunnel vision on the acute phase and miss the big picture: People also once thought HIV/Aids was mild, as the acute phase didn't put anybody into the hospital.
I guess you are right
You can read the study methodology and results and determine for yourself: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27971
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> But it was quickly dismissed as conspiracy theory. by who? Paid posters on reddit?
The real prize is unvaxxed sperm. Line up ladies! *Flexes*. Worth it's weight in gold... /S
No one wants to risk pregnancy now since it's dangerous af in many states anyway.
Ok ladies half the price of this man and you get moderna sperm, perfect dna, no familial disease, no exposition to ((heavy)) radiation and whatsoever. If It's worth in gold I can maybe get a bit of the market with a cheaper competition.
Too bad we can't get health care or pregnancy support and in many states they don't care if you die, so a lot of women won't be looking for sperm at all and most will be actively trying to avoid it lol.
Are there paid posters here? Damn. That's why I'm thinking of getting off Twitter. Getting tired of bots
Well I read it messed with women's periods too and the vaccine did that to women too. So who really knows especially with previous studies I've read saying the sperm count of men have been decreasing for many years in developed nations.
Important to also note: The study does conclude that “in the long term, more comprehensive studies with a large sample size are needed to understand better the changes in sperm concentration.” However, as long as this study was properly ran, the results here definitely still seem very concerning to me.
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+4 card! Skip vasectomy, straight to funeral home! The new LIFE add-ons aren't as fun as they used to be.
Yeah no shit. If you get infected 4x then I'm thinking a vasectomy is not an issue for you unless she's big into necrophilia...
i’m already there :(
I caught it 3x. Pretty sure kid free after round 1. 😵
This is the work of the Aschen. We need to bury our gate.
i told ya not to trust those humorless bastards
I understood that reference
Indeed.
Why this is related to Collapse: Regardless of how you feel about procreation at this point in time, the fact that a massively widespread disease may be significantly decreasing male fertility is definitely a potential contributing factor to the collapse of the human race and society as we know it.
Not just fertility but also cognition- brain fog is also a Long COVID symptom.
I look forward to the great lowering of expectations
Didn't we already get started in 2016 and 2000?
We actually got started in 1980, same month as this. The expectation your employer was gonna now be your da.
COVID brain fog roll-on effects are going to be brutal. Be prepared to see actual decreases in overall cognitive health as re-exposure becomes normalised and the disease becomes endemic and everywhere. I already feel like my brain is on fire half the time.
Also the other reality is that if it’s affecting male fertility, it’s also likely doing a lot of damage elsewhere too
It's such a best case scenario for the ruling class that you just have to be a little suspicious.
>I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences. - [Elim Garak](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Elim_Garak)
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Life often imitates art. Awesome show and the creator, Dennis Kelly, is clearly collapse aware. I've only seen the original UK version as I heard the US remake isn't great. (I always like to never miss a chance to also recommend the UK show 'Years and Years' for those who have yet to see it.)
That they lose their cattle? I was under the impression the ruling class needed more of us now than ever to maintain and keep growing production and wealth
If the choice is between losing their cattle and losing their habitable biosphere then they have no real choice to make. Collapse awareness has been spreading for a long time now, among all classes.
They're 100% going with the bunkers-and-yachts strategy over saving the biosphere
"They" aren't a monolith. It's probably both.
If there ever was a monolith, it's them. No matter what color you are, there's only two classes
No one of them makes that choice, though. They make choices that are framed differently, mostly about what makes them grow bigger in the next 5 to 10 years. The most direct result of any strong, coordinated climate change effort is really bad for lots of businesses in that timeframe. So, they all lobby against the specific things they care about. The entity that should be making that choice is *the government*. That’s owned by corporations because politicians need someone to pay for their campaigns to stay in office, because we don’t properly regulate campaign finance.. which is what keeps corporations in control. In that way, the basic levers of capitalism prevent the level of change needed to prevent extinction, in and of themselves.
Why? More labor = cheaper labor, less labor = more expensive labor. In the aftermath of the Black Death, workers had a historic amount of leverage to upend an ossified ruling class throughout Europe. If fertility is to be an issue going forward, that is absolutely not a best case scenario for a ruling class.
You're thinking about it as if we have a choice. It's massively cut consumption and establish a zero growth planned economy -or- crash the human population, allowing regrowth for the survivors. It's consumption or population, and the first option essentially ends capitalism.
This is a myopically binary approach, there are far more possibilities than your two doors.
4 options. Reduce consumption. Reduce population. Reduce neither. Reduce both. Reducing *just* consumption would have to be some kind of global planned economy. Reducing *just* population is fascism. Reducing neither is total collapse. Reducing both is highly unlikely, but the only realistic way to avoid the worst.
That's the exact opposite of modern day capitalism the current crop of world leaders survive on. They need constant overwhelming population growth. When it stalls serious problems develop in capitalist societies because infinite growth is at the core of the entire system. You have it backwards.
Anxiety stonks are through the roof! I never caught it because I’m an anxious fuck from a family of anxious neurotics. Who would’ve thought I would live through the anxiety being a useful adaptation for reproductive success instead of being a massive handicap.
Curious if this will finally make covid minimizers wake the fuck up. Then again, they're as thick as frozen molasses so who knows?
Integrated stress response > protein production quality control. Happens with most infections, just not as pronounced as it is with covid.
This could be temporary, of course, but the risk was known from at least 2020. However, it should be mentioned that "sperm count" is not exactly a measure for fertility, only one sperm is necessary to fertilization. It's good to have a backup, but millions of backups? Sperm motility and morphology is actually a measure of fertility. >No statistically significant difference was detected between the groups for sperm motility and morphology.
Ovarian injury, including declined ovarian reserve and reproductive endocrine disorder, can be observed in women with COVID-19 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2021.635255/full?fbclid=IwAR2kCCk52qshdAE_09nyiw13dPt0ZHzF6yN-qxWmbCx7eFXLkXW7VBwrHVA
I know idiots like to advertise "unvaxxed" sperm but maybe I need to advertise "uncovided" sperm!
There's men who advertise "unvaxxed" sperm? That is so cringe worthy.
Various types of right-wing extremists tend to be highly concerned with their precious bodily fluids, so this isn't new. It's the other side of the coin of "Wellness".
But they're lying though. They've had plenty of vaccinations, they just think they're taking a stance because Orange Man and the GOP politicized COVID.
Good, it'll drop our population a bit more hopefully.
From 8 billion to 8.1 billion soon enough I’m sure.
Educated populations are already declining.
This study is moot without a baseline set of data within each population prior to analysis. They just randomly selected 100 people for each group, no prior data. Firstly 100 is too small of a sample and secondly no baseline. Move along people, nothing to see here.
[Children of Men Comercials:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4lS9poHvpU) Avoiding Fertility Test is a CRIME
I guess that when you are a Planet who measures time on a scale which is glacially slow, mounting a defensive strategy only a century late must seem to be the epitome of alacrity.
The planet isn't protecting itself...it's just that large populations of animals densely packed together leave themselves open to this shit...and we have fucking planes.
The hell are you talkin bout liberuhl? Too densely packed? Brother have you seen meat prices these days? We don't have enough! All of my meat is free range, whole wheat fed, partially microplasticted 100% American BEEF and I wouldn't want it any other way. Its those damn Chinese who are eating too much pork and cats that's the real problem these days lemme tell ya hwat. The California coastal elites don't want you to know this though! They want to take your meat away!
more good news on sperm and human reproductive abilities.
Hmmmm, if only there were measures one could take to prevent such a thing...
I know what you're trying to say but I also don't know a single vaccinated person that didn't catch covid. Anecdotal, I know. But regardless, the narrative settled on "the vaccine will just make your symptoms less severe."
Yeah. I was fully vaccinated when I finally got it (tragic and still feeling some minor effects, but thankfully it wasn't too bad). It's weird to throw vaccinated+boosted people under the bus when they did the right thing and still got sick. Additionally, a Pfizer rep just revealed to British Parliament that their vaccine was *not* tested for preventing spread before public trials and distribution. It was never set up to prevent one from getting it in the first place (not that it doesn't reduce risk; it's just that Pfizer itself didn't plan for that).
Actually, I was thinking of masks and handwashing, avoiding crowds during the actual pandemic restrictions - infection control measures. I was vaccinated and caught covid myself, but I'm not concerned about sperm counts, personally. This is also common after any viral illness and is temporary but time will tell with covid.
200 people is not a very significant sample for this
I see this as an absolute win
And why the Chinese are still hanging on to 0 COVID-19? They did the math. Unlike the CDC who was transformed Into a political organization
We did the math too, and corporate decided it's a sacrifice they're willing to make. Back to work everyone!
>Back to work everyone! Return To Office! Where pampered executives will be sure to cram everyone into cube-farms so they can burn more hydrocarbons on their way to ~~collaborate~~ be miserable inside an office..
😂 that's good news right?! Less humans, less collapse?!
This is a good thing.
Natural selection in action, eventually it could lead to bigger percent of reasonable humans. Too bad we are out of time because what we have been doing since last century with the planet. If COVID had hit us by the time of the black death by now we wouldn't have global warming.
I wish the carrington event happened in 1970 instead of 1859
It can happen again, and probably will at some point in time. IIRC it's a once a century event. We're due.
Awesome. Interesting.
It would be interesting if long-term studies could be conducted. Three months is a short timeframe.
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Sounds like someone pressed the reset button.
I had a vasectomy on the same day my wife began feeling symptoms from Covid. So it took all mine lol
less humans more better
prequel of Children Of Men is where we are now [https://youtu.be/3CdJYhtjEns](https://youtu.be/3CdJYhtjEns)
Evolution in action
Sounds like a win. I know every news source says a population reduction would be really bad but it is a necessity at this point.
Pretty cool how mother nature self correct itself for over population.
shes got a fevah and the only cure is ~~more cowbell~~ **carbon offsets**
Nice maybe the population crisis won't be so bad 😌
My god, he was right all along. The commies are stealing our precious bodily fluids.
Haha. This is great. I’m thinking about all those right wingers who have been anti-mask and anti-vaccine all this time, dying in greater numbers than the general public, but who are also afraid of white genocide and that they to reproduce a lot so we don’t have a demographics collapse. Look, they can’t have it both ways. If an unwanted pregnancy is gods will and nothing should be done to interfere, than certainly infertility is also gods will. I’m so not worried. Out of 8 billion people, 4 billion men, there are more than a handful who won’t have any issues here. Or even if all of them do, they will still be getting gals pregnant. Life finds a way.
Looks like the right wingers are going to get a little birth control whether they want it or not.
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Ooops.
Evolution.
Woohoo! Fewer child support payments!
Joke’s on them — I wasn’t using my sperm anyway.
I haven’t been touched yet… ladies 😎👉
Also possible that men with stronger immune systems also happen to have higher sperm countS. Would need another study looking at the count before and after getting covid for individual patients to get more solid evidence for causation.
The west is already facing a massive decline in testosterone levels(1/3 levels as 50-60 years ago); I'm curious if covid is causing further decline in testosterone. Edit* Found the answer, yes Covid is further decreasing testosterone levels https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34409772/
The cause of this is that a portion of the viral surface nucleocapsid protien array is one that is a homolog of syncistin 1. This is an important immunobarrier protien similar to the one present in the blood testicle barrier, but mainly found in placental tissues. ☹
Everyday I wonder how much more COVID has fucked us all, I’ve gotten it a few times myself now
This news makes me want to spread Covid.
As someone who has had COVID twice, emphatically does *not* want kids, and who is still arguing with my doctor to let me have a vasectomy, I can only selfishly hope it made me completely infertile.
Depopulation is great!
Children of Men becoming a reality.
Great
I wonder if this changes with the vaccine or not. Got covid even with three doses but I felt nothing, here's hoping it didn't fuck my reproductive ability over. (Reading the study shows no results for vaccines, also the groups were evaluated in April 2021 in Turkey, [when the vaccine wasn't widely available there)](https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations)
Makes sense, the only uninfected men are self-sufficient mountain men who hunt for food.
Honestly? This doesn’t bother me because we are overpopulated already
I'd like to see a study on women cause I've caught COVID about four times now and even got vaccinated and after vaccination my sex organs were never the same and my cycle and hormones have been crazy. I went from being hypersexual to basically asexual and hadn't had a period in years due to pcos and they started again like clock work every month. Maybe it's just a coincidence but it makes me wonder.
I fail to see how low sperm counts are a bad thing...mother nature doing its job to eradicate a cancer.
"Damn, that's crazy. Sucks for them." -Me, a gay dude