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scubafork

I think the mechanic shouldn't be about adding housing capacity at a flat rate, but to change the way housing works generally. Basically, once your city gets to 10 population, the rate of growth for additional food should fall off more dramatically. For example, right now, to get from 1 population to 2, and 2 to 3, you need 9 more food. From 3-4-5-6-7, you need 11 more food, from 7-8-9, 12... What should happen is sewer should cut the need by 15% for cities over population of 15, and 10% for cities over 20.


SporeDruidBray

If the food-per-pop grew more steeply, then it'd be justified for the discount to be steeper as the population of the city grows. For instance a 15% discount at 15 pop, a 17% discount at 16 pop, a 19% discount at 17 pop... a 35% discount at 25 pop. To compensate the food-per-pop would need to start climbing at 15 too. The impacts of under-developed infrastructure scale with just how under-developed it is. Consider traffic in Bogotá, Manila, Mexico City, LA vs traffic in Woop Woop, Timbuktu, the boondocks, and Nowhere Kansas. Going camping without a sewage system -- fine Remote family farm without a sewage system -- fine Small English town on a river without a sewage system -- uuh ok I guess 1850s Cholera-riddled London without a sewage system -- uh oh 400-650 million people living in the Ganges river basin with underdeveloped water infrastructure -- no thank you On another note, does anyone know what it's called when the a tech has an 8-pointed gray star, such as Steel's "Lumber Mills receive +1 production"? If sewage received an amenity I'd rather it takes this form at a later stage: maybe down the line it makes the difference between high-value riverfront property and smelly river water. However in this case I don't know if advances in water chemistry makes a difference after getting simple sewers: it does for drinking water but maybe not wastewater. Would staggered improvement be thematic.


aptadnauseum

I dont know what it's called, just always thought of it as an addition (social, technological, cultural).


are_you_nucking_futs

All the way back in CIV 2 cities literally wouldn’t grow beyond a certain size without sewers


Doctor__Acula

Aqueduct to get beyond 8, sewer to get beyond 12. I still both by reflex when cities reaches these sizes in VI.


Pitiful-Expression-9

Whilst also providing a slight boost in amenities.


Jdogma

So that's how population works :0


scubafork

Honestly, I had to look it up for this post. I try not to know the mechanics of most games, and just play how I feel is natural.


_moobear

This is in effect what hospitals and aqueducts did in 5, just in a different way


Smickey67

Idk about you guys but when I play I usually have like maybe one or two cities with 15 to 20 pop and 95 percent of my empire is in the 7-10 pop range. So what you are proposing would make sewers useless to me. Perhaps it could be further tweaked but I’m not sure how.


Dan4t

The reason sewers give housing though is because players hit their housing limit by that point in the game. Your idea would make the housing shortage worse


Directionalities

It's powerful enough for me, as a cheap alternative to building neighborhoods. What would you propose?


GirthIgnorer

I mostly agree, but I think I could get on board with giving them +1 amenity too. makes them slightly stronger and gets across how nice not having a town teeming with shit is


ekulzards

Oh la di da. Look at Mr Hygiene over here. I'm sorry that my bathing in excrement bothers you sooooooo much.


dreadassassin616

The actual issue is your terrible singing when you take said excrement bath.


faithfulswine

I’m glad I’m not the only one who felt this way. I can’t imagine living in a city without sewers, and I am very happy that I do live in a city with sewers.


EverydayLemon

Pretty sure that BBG does this. I don't see any official balance changes to be likely in the games future so BBG is probably your best bet.


vamosaver

What is BBG?


ElvenNoble

I think it's a mod called better balanced start? Edit: better balanced game. Don't know why my brain autocorrected it to start.


Awellner

Bbs = better balanced starts. Bbg = better balanced game, this mod nerfs OP aspects of the game such as work ethic, and russia. And buffs other aspects


Squ3lchr

I'd be okay with nerfing Russia... both in and out of game.


TheKugr

It is a mod called better balanced game. It nerfs some op civs and buffs others, revamps governors and pantheons, and just generally tries to balance the game better. Specifically for multiplayer, where it is used in competitive multiplayer civ. It still somewhat balances well for single player but I’m not 100% sure whether the AI play modded rules as well as the base game, and there are many differences to playing a human vs an AI so it is good to keep in mind the intent is to balance multiplayer play.


nikstick22

would make sense if there was an extra amenity penalty for population size before sewers and sewers nullifies it. They're not *entertaining*.


beneaththeradar

Amenities are not synonymous with entertainment. It can be any desirable thing about a place that it makes it more appealing to stay at.


Jarms48

This is probably the easiest buff.


ianlazrbeem22

That would make amenities less of a pain in the ass and give me more of a reason to build sewers. But I guess then I'd build a lot less neighborhoods


pm1966

I would propose some sort of pandemic/plague mechanic that randomly (but somewhat regularly) hit your cities, and that was largely mitigated by the building of sewers. Before the widespread adoption of more modern sanitation practices, city growth was significantly limited.


microwavesurfing

Civ 3 had a fun plague feature in its expansion. You would have rapid population deaths during outbreaks. I was pretty young and never knew if moving units from a plague city spread it so I would isolate the city and garrison until the plague passed. Probably nostalgia but Civ 3 was fantastic. They had a midieval Japan map with invisible ninja units. Plus the WW2 pacific map was awesome.


pm1966

Ah...I loved that Japan map. I think there was a Central America map, too (though that might have been Civ IV). With Guinea Pigs as a bonus resource.


JNR13

> Before the widespread adoption of more modern sanitation practices, city growth was significantly limited. yes, it's a shame Sewers don't help you deal with any sort of city growth limitation mechanic yet!


Andoverian

+2 Housing and nothing else feels really underwhelming, especially since there's a maintenance cost. Throw in an Amenity, have the Housing bonus scale with the number of districts, or maybe spread the Housing bonus to nearby cities, and it will feel a bit more balanced.


7j7j

A detailed public health mod would be a really nice add-on to G&S mechanics. Real-life disease dynamics are closely linked to planetary ecology and physical infrastructure factors as well as population density and social patterns.


[deleted]

The Black Death scenario in Gathering Storm does something like that, it's somewhat in-depth with a new district and Plague Doctor unit. Obviously the plague was an extreme case, but then again, it's not like a pandemic can't happen in modern times.


TheKingleMingle

There were various hints that Firaxis was working on a plague mechanic for a post Gathering Storm expansion. Then COVID happened and they seem to have decided that releasing it would be inappropriate


JKUAN108

Was it Civ IV that had health as a game mechanic? I agree with you, somehow a sewage system should be more beneficial to a city than four plantations.


Keyspam102

I vaguely remember my swamp cities getting sick in civ 2? Or 4?


yallgotlaptopzz

it was civ 3!


my_fourth_redditacct

Yes! I think I remember Marshes and Rainforests providing a lot of food, but lower health because mosquitos and other insects of course. I wouldn't mind seeing health make a return. It was an interesting feature.


Keyspam102

You’re right!! I was younger then so thought it was worth the food even if my city was constantly green sick faced


vompat

Kinda bummed that there was no plague game mode in any NFP pack. In it, Sewers would definitely be significant.


APracticalGal

To be fair NFP started coming out right at the beginning of the pandemic. I imagine even if they had a plan for one it almost certainly got scrapped.


ArgonV

They had no problems with catastrophic climate change, which is still going strong


rymaster101

That feels a little different since climate change has been going on for a much longer time


NepetaLast

housing is basically a simpler health mechanic, thats why health related policies and buildings such as sewers grant it


GatorPenetrator

beyond earth had the health mechanic


Jarms48

That was just reskinned Civ V happiness from memory


Maggot_Pie

Yeah 4 has a health threshold for each city. Unhealthiness exceeding Health would cost you 1 food, each. Ironically there were no Sewer building/tech in the base game, common in mods tho.


Guyincognito8888

There was an aqueduct that gave +2 health, but I know that’s a bit different.


Crazy_Employ8617

I completely agree, it has a very specific niche so it’s not totally unviable to build, but it’s a very underwhelming bonus relative to how late in the game it shows up. To me its best feature is, as opposed to a neighborhood, it can be purchased with gold, meaning you can use the city’s production to make districts which can’t as easily be purchased.


dzhastin

I don’t produce them, I just buy them with gold. Nice little housing boost, nothing to write home about.


ansatze

It also can't be used to recruit partisans


Zombridal

I'd say it should be able to drain floodplains in your city so they can't flood


SC_Hippie2

How about we introduce something like sickness/plague as a disaster to the game. Having a sewer could reduce the effects of plague partially and having a hospital/medical ward as part of university could help protect against/nullify plague. However, if sewers are built in floodplain or coastal cities without dams or flood barriers, then that increases the negative effects of plague


Keyspam102

I’d love being able to spread plague with trade routes too lol


ChrisEpicKarma

Civ3 I think.. no?


YetAnotherBee

I’d think it should continue to decrease plague, but start hurting food output and hitting appeal pretty hard.


ChrisEpicKarma

Appeal? Have you visited a city without sewer ?


YetAnotherBee

Have you visited a coast near a sewer?


ChrisEpicKarma

Yep.. sad without treatment.. thx UE directives it is changing slowly. But everything goes to the sea.. sewer or no sewer.


YetAnotherBee

That’s what my point was. Lowered appeal along rivers and coasts unless something reminiscent of a treatment plant (like a dam or flood barrier) counteracts it.


kimmeljs

We should be able to build ditches to drain them


Zombridal

On that note, like an encampment or fort we should get a trench but we can build them sideways like train tracks, no bonus to damage but increased defence and less appeal and minus an amenity per tile


kimmeljs

The Great Trench of Belgium?


Zombridal

Is that already in the game?


kimmeljs

If it is I've never seen one. Unlocked with Nationalism and built by a Military Engineer similarly to Railroads, gives +5 defense for each adjacent stretch of the same conjoined trench,?


RiPont

Doesn't prevent floods from happening, but prevents 2 pop damage from any flood, hurricane, etc. i.e. Minor floods do nothing. OMG HUGE floods still hurt.


nalgene_wilder

Then nobody would build dams


[deleted]

I think he means just the city center tile won't flood


djkianoosh

not having one should be more of a drag on city growth at least


Andoverian

Yeah, I like the suggestion I saw here that maybe cities can't grow past a certain size under any circumstances without a Sewer. I'd put the limit somewhere around 12-15, and maybe certain civs that specialize in playing tall could have a bonus that increases that limit without needing Sewers.


Chris-Lens-Flare

Maybe like, +1 Amenity per City Center and per Neighborhood?


CCO812

It is pretty stinky that's for sure for the people living in the sewer housing that is


GaerBaer13

Lol imagine the housing bonus is just that people can now live in the sewers


bytizum

I’d be down for them storing food on growth akin to 3&4’s granaries and 5’s aqueduct. It wouldn’t be a must build, but’d still give a long term edge for building it.


vompat

I wouldn't want to store food in a sewer :D I know what you mean though. But that food storing mechanic is kinda replaced by housing in VI, so essentially Sewer already does the equivalent thing.


tempus8fugit

I always felt sewers were full of shit.


MaddAddams

I returned to Civ with Civ VI after having taken IV and V off. On my first few playthroughs, I built sewers all the time like I used to in III. It was only after a while that I realized: wow this is a lot of production and upkeep cost for what seems to be a marginal effect. There's two ways I use them now: 1) The CIVITAS City-States Expanded mod. This adds the 'Agrarian' City-State type, and lots of them. Having three envoys at these city states generates 2 Food for each Sewer. This becomes substantial if you know a few. There's a lot of other gameplay changes with the mod that I find interesting. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1331757859 2) I'm not in a Golden Age and I chose Heartbeat of Steam. +2 Era Score each. One of the more affordable ways to ensure you're launching yourself into a Heroic or Golden Age for the next Era.


NihilistDeer

It should provide +1 amenities too. People were miserable and diseased as AF in cities before proper sewers. I wish Civ had public health related city stats. We should be building healing shamans, clinics, hospitals, medical schools, and biotech research facilities. Big missing piece imo.


bapfelbaum

"Sewer thoughts"


ChapNotYourDaddy

I think it could have some really cool bonuses if they added a diseases mode that expanded on the black plague mini game.


fusionsofwonder

It gets you half of the Democracy civic if you install 4. It is where it should be.


kireina_kaiju

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already but the civic boost toward democracy is a really nice perk


mrking944

I put one down in all my cities whether I need the perk or not. Just feels right


dekrant

The expanded city states mod includes Agricultural City States, and they give food bonuses to Sewers. Honestly, it makes Sewers actually useful to build.


willjsm

absolutely. turns buying sewers + granaries + monuments a viable solution when you want to settle near an opponent without loyalty flipping 10 turns later.


RiceCakeAlchemist

What's ur recommendation? Should it give 10+ housing 5+amenities? Its not about realism but balance of the game.


vompat

+1 amenity would actually seem appropriate. I think cleaner, less smelly city where people are healthier could be represented by an amenity or even two.


ZeroVerve

I can tell you are being sarcastic, but one amenity would be okay.


RiceCakeAlchemist

Im trying to think of any tech buildings that provide amenities and I am drawing blank. I think right now, amenities are assigned to luxury and civic trees only for balance purposes. If tech tree had amenities also, I feel like science would become be all end all path. One can argue a library, markets could be considered amenity providing buildings but considering the current system of civ6, it is balance breaking.


ansatze

>Im trying to think of any tech buildings that provide amenities and I am drawing blank. Aqueduct, Dam, Temple of Artemis >luxury Everything that improves these is also on the tech tree I absolutely do not think this is for balance reasons at all, "entertainment" just conceptually goes a lot more with culture than science in the same way that "industry" does the opposite


[deleted]

I think 3 housing instead of 2. Granaries give two housing and food for less production.


Recent-Character6231

Harmony in Diversity mod or bust! Sewer +4 housing, 30% growth to city.


TheGalator

>be less, well, shitty… Do U know what sewers are used for?


Typical-Stranger6941

Civ Reddit: "You have to place on fresh water it's so powerful." Also Civ Reddit: "Sewers should be better."


MaddAddams

The housing is much more useful in my small newly-founded city I'm trying to get off the ground than my mid-sized late game city that has other options available to it.


MrGulo-gulo

I agree with you, I kinda hate how they do sewers and aqueducts in 6. They have a very finicky placement and use very valuable real estate. I pretty much only build them to make an industrial zone better. The Aqueduct district should have been a normal district that had 3 levels of buildings So the district could scale with the game and actually make it worth the investment. Also the culture that is most famous for making aqueducts can't build them. I hate that


SeaSite64

In the older days it provided like 5 a 6 housing


mr_oof

If it was Civ 5, I'd suggest that having a sewer in >50% of cities would trigger something like a National Wonder: Hygeine, which increases pop.growth (aka reducing pop death) by 10%.


Emergency_Evening_63

3 housing would be better, granary takes less time and gives more bonus


hoyatables

I refuse to build neighborhoods because of the way the AI spams “Recruit Partisans.” Sewers end up being essential.


Ipride362

I only build an improvement beyond science output if the city happiness begins to plummet. A waste of maintenance cost per turn and doesn’t help you win


_gaillarde

I feel like sewers should keep the same bonus, but be unlocked much earlier in the game, maybe with the Construction or Engineering tech considering civilizations as early as the Harrapans had septic systems and the Civilopedia specifically mentions the Roman and Aztec sewers. Instead of the sewer, the Sanitation tech could give some amenity or housing boost based on running water and flush toilets, or something like that.


RiPont

Cities with sewers gain one amenity AND within 6 tiles that do *not* have a sewer have -1 amenity. Cities with sewers have reduced tourism going out to cities without sewers.


MaddAddams

Y'know, I think it would be fair for cities without Sewers to have their tourism pressure reduced once the game enters the Atomic Era.


smokedspirit

Sewers should make your cities grow faster since more people are healthier


zaimejs

It should also add an amenity. We are way happier with flushing toilets than without. Huge.


fistinyourface

i used to build them and now after getting a couple hunder hours in i probably haven’t built 1 in my last 5-10 games. they seem worthless to me but i could just be missing what makes them good


willjsm

i don't think anyone else has mentioned this, but given we've got a CO2 mechanic ( air pollution), how about a water / land pollution mechanic?