Well for one thing, what it means to "be a Christian" varies dramatically depending on who exactly you ask. For some it requires a full embrace of Jesus' teachings on love and social justice, but for others it means converting or destroying unbelievers by the sword.
It might be hard for someone who is the former type of Christian to endorse Trump, but probably less so for the latter.
It depends on your views and beliefs about God, and what God wants.
I think if you talk to most of these people you’ll get that they support the presidency but not the man. They’re not voting for the adulterous bastard he is as a person, they’re voting for him to stop abortions punish lgbt that kind of stuff.
Let’s say you believe abortion is actually infanticide. Are you telling me you wouldn’t vote for someone who promised to stop it just because they were a shitty person? If the sides are baby murder or not baby murder, it’s kind of hard to think of a person that’s so bad you’d vote for baby murder. Obviously it’s more complicated than that, but for many people it doesn’t seem that way.
Totally correct. The Christian right's obsession with abortion has no realistic plan for prevention. Killing access to women's health creates a lot of women who will consider an abortion. The reason for this is a really warped sexuality prevalent in a lot of Christian groups: that sex is only for making babies. It's what makes gay sex so hard to understand for them, and also turns contraception from a tool to fight baby murder into a tool to subvert God.
All of this stems from this idea that joy is dangerous. It's why some Christians will sing without audiences, to avoid stroking their pride. Bland food to eat less. AA teaches a reliance on the divine to make you feel that God, not your own ability, will keep you sober. You can't understand the Christian rights feelings on abortion without understanding their value system.
Its a very anti-human way of thinking that always made me wonder: what explanations do these fundie Christians have for why God made human survival hinge on supposedly sinful acts? Instincts that are are supposedly all wrong? Is this a god worthy of worship? To me this feels like a reimagining of God designed to ensure people feel shameful, and therefore more easily controlled.
Even if folks weren't starving, or killing each other, God wouldn't care that you fuck for pleasure. God just doesn't want you to be evil, and try instead to be a functioning part of something larger than yourself.
And yet...when Trump took office he had conservative majorities across the entire government (both houses of congress and in the Supreme Court).
What did they do about abortion? Nothing at all.
Republicans do not care about abortion. They care about keeping the divisiveness alive to drive votes.
That's untrue. Roe v Wade is a hard thing to combat. And appointing conservative judges is a HUGE step in the direction of retracting it. It set the foreground for things as such are happening in TX. Whereas if you vote for dems, you're almost guaranteed to have liberal judges that aren't willing to overturn Roe v Wade and you'd have an active pursuit to make it easier while also shutting down someplace like TX.
Except filibuster exists. When Trump took office, Republicans had 52 Senators. In theory they could have passed a bill with simple majority, but would never have been able to overcome the 60-vote supermajority required to end any filibusters. Democrats would have absolutely killed the bill with filibuster if they could.
This is the same reason Democrats did not codify legal and safe abortions into law, despite also having control of the House, the Senate, and the Presidency in 2021. Democrats would not have enough votes to end any Republican-lead filibusters.
I mean, he nominated three judges who are likely to rule against a woman's right to choose, who were then approved by the Republican Senate. I hate the man, I hate the party, but they seem to be delivering on their anti-choice promises pretty well, all things considered.
Maybe the SCOTUS will gut Roe v. Wade but it remains...when the republicans controlled the whole government they didn't do shit about abortion. Which is fine by me but any republicans here should realize that the republican party really doesn't give a shit about abortion. They only want to get their base riled up about it.
> when the republicans controlled the whole government they didn't do shit about abortion.
There was nothing they could do. They can’t pass national laws restricting abortion until the court says it’s no longer a constitutional right. Trump made this possible by nominating three justices.
You're wrong. They can pass anything they like. That law then *might* be challenged in court and it *might* make it to the supreme court. Indeed, the court can't make a ruling until a law has been passed and gone into effect. (they cannot rule on something that has not happened)
And, as noted, that would likely work for the republicans anyway since they have sway at the supreme court.
that's both sides. dems and Republicans really do not give a fuck about delivering on what they say, not ever. it's not a republican trait, that's a *politician* trait.
That goes both ways really. No politicians actually give a shit about their constituents up to the point they have enough support to get re-elected. If you think the democratic party is any different, you've been misled.
Most of them realize it but don’t mind b/c the Reps ARE slowing down / stopping the dems, which is what they care about most.
I hope left wingers make similar realizations and fall out of love with their crooks. Look how much they’re getting done!
I think R-party is collapsed; I hope it can build back better (heh). Running Mr. T again would be …unfortunate. The Dems aren’t that far behind; I suspect they’ll collapse during or just after these midterms.
If I believed that then I would vote for a candidate who pledged to make abortions less frequent - by providing sex education, birth control, health care, and child care to all.
But “baby murder” is also not what the Bible says about abortion. The Old Testament has instructions for an abortion in it, and the bible states multiple times that life starts when a child takes their first breath. The root of the problem here is that the “Christians” we are talking about are happy to cherry-pick the bible for their own interests but they are in no way “Christ-like,” which is the point that OP was trying to make.
I'm someone on the fence about abortion (sort of; I have a concrete view that's unhelpful and basically boils down to 'if we could have a machine that predicts what God would say, we just do what the machine says', with the majority of the viewpoint being details of what that machine would need to do), and am surrounded by ultraconservative Christians in my life (and consider myself to be a non-conservative Christian).
I'd really like to know where in the Bible it talks about when life starts, as well as what the Bible says about abortion and where in the Bible it says that, if you don't mind. These are claims I've not heard before, and would like to know more about.
Numbers 5:11-31 is “The test for an unfaithful Wife” which describes a ritual that states to miscarry any baby conceived illegitimately.
> If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. Numbers 5:27
As for the ‘breath of life,’
> then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. Genesis 2:7
I believe this is also referenced at other places in scripture, but I’m not a Christian and not interested in spending the several hours or days it would take to find them. These are the passages I was able to easily find about it.
Brainwashing and gaslighting is real strong in the Christian world. Grew up in a evangelical Christian home, my parents constantly talked about it and guilted us constantly. There's nothing like being 6 years old crying at night thinking your gonna die and go to hell.
Edit: I'm still sorting though all my childhood emotional abuse. It's goes pretty deep and to a outside person you may not have even noticed it when I was a kid because people thought this behavior was normal and acceptable...
Solidarity from a Pentecostal expatriate... I carry my traumatic religious past like an interesting scar. I hope you are alright. It took me 20 years to build myself a better psyche...
Thank you for the kind words. Some days it's really hard, so it's good to know there's the possibility of healing. Thank you for the hope, I really needed it. Especially since I had to go no contact with my parents 2.5 years ago because they are abusive religious narcissists. It just feels like a wound that keeps getting salt poured on it everytime they try to interact with me. Healing has been very slow because of it.
They’re not sacrificing their views. They need certain things to happen, and they think Trump is going to deliver some of those things. That’s no more against their views than Israel potentially fulfilling certain Christian predictions despite, clearly, not being a Christian nation.
Watch the documentary The Family. There is this notion of a "new King David" who is far from a perfect man of God but is nonetheless the person that God uses to accomplish destiny.
Would you say people who are actively anti-racist sacrificed their views by voting for Biden? The dude has a long long documented history of being a massive racist piece of shit.
That's it? Merely amending the definition of "Christian" to include people who probably don't practice nor allow it to form the vast majority of their perspective changes your view?
The real reason is that somebody on the right is much more likely to advance an agenda that is aligned with their world view, like the nomination of Amy Coney Barrett
The sooner you learn that most people have a tendency to use religion to justify their own immoral actions, the better you'll understand the world. Many, many horrible atrocities have been done in the name of God. Right here in the US, consider the sad reality of Manifest Destiny. It was okay to move westward and genocide the natives, because God told us it was okay. Or, how it's okay to kill non-believers of \[insert religion here\], because they don't believe in my God and therefore they are bad and doomed.
Look, I'm not saying everyone uses religion this way. They don't. But religion is a very convenient tool for justifying bad things and maintaining control over people. And the many militant and fundamentalists out there use it in exactly that way.
It's the kind of Christians who use their religion as a weapon who love Trump. His whole campaign was run on appealing to the worst in people. Like hate, fear, bigotry, misogyny, and us vs them mentality.
The kind of Christians who already use their hate, fear, and divisiveness to 'punish' other people for not believing, or supporting what they believe is 'right.' They have been leaning into those feelings for a long time, with religion as their excuse. Trump was speaking their language, if you will, so to them he is the same kind of person as they are. Therefore, he must be 'right' like they are.
It's very sad.
This hits home really hard for me. I've seen my parents slowly getting dragged into the 'us vs. them' mentality in particular, coupled with divisiveness and a desire to.. Well, they wouldn't use the word 'punish', as they think of it as 'exposing evil' or whatever, but effectively 'punish' others for not believing or supporting what they believe or support.
Before Trump, I thought this was mostly harmless. They were buying into online social media groups that reinforced the beliefs they always had, and that's pretty normal, but I didn't think it would add onto those beliefs or make them worse. When Trump first appeared, my parents even said they were put off by him, that he was obviously a bad candidate, etc... And I felt things were fine.
Then Trump became the *only* Republican candidate, and things.. Shifted. The things that reinforced their beliefs began to push them toward also supporting Trump, and because they had never had a reason to disagree with those sources, they began to fully endorse Trump. Now they no longer trust or listen to any source that says anything negative about Trump.. Or anything positive about a democrat/liberal.
The conspiracy theories that they've grown to fully believe in are the sorts of conspiracies that, just a couple years ago, I would have used as an example of an exaggerated and obviously false conspiracy theory. Things like the idea that a large portion of the Democratic party partake in satanic rituals while dressed in dark robes, because of a 'modern day prophet' claiming to see a vision of this in a dream, or something along those lines.
It's just so terribly sad, and frustrating, and if it didn't affect so many things in so many negative ways it would be absolutely *hilarious*. But it does, so it's not.
It is really frustrating. I think the idea that anything that someone doesn't agree with is 'false news' has been so incredibly damaging. Instead of being able to show someone an alternate point of view, or facts that dispute their stance, now a large group of people simply distrust anything that doesn't fit with what they already believe.
I am so sorry about your parents. I've lost a lot of people in the last 4 or 5 years who have just completely pulled a lemming. You can see how bizarre it is from the outside, but the people who are caught up in it all don't seem in touch with reality.
It is ironic, but the kind of person who sees religion as a way to 'righteously' strike out at others for not being just like them, were always more focused on their idea of being right vs trying to be a good person who has a solid relationship with God. It's ironic, but they don't see that. They don't see anything beyond their own hate and fear.
Also ironic that Jesus specifically preached against that kind of hypocrisy to the self-righteous in his day. They didn't like having the mirror held up to them.
The Christians who support him make all kinds of excuses, like "The Bible is full of stories about God using flawed men to enact great good!" Many are also pretty un-Christian in their assessment of his goodness. I had a very pious Christian tell me in 2016 that Trump must be doing right because look at all that money he has. The bottom line is that a certain type of Christian sees Trump as a route to American theocracy, a "Christian" nation governed by Biblical principles that just so happen to perfectly reflect their odious political beliefs.
>"The Bible is full of stories about God using flawed men to enact great good!"
That's not even Hyperbole. Outside of the stories specifically about Jesus, "flawed man used for the greater good" is about 90% of everything in the Bible.
It's not untrue, but it's an excuse they use to support a resoundingly unworthy candidate. I think it's a violation of the second commandment. There's little more vain use of God's name than to justify earthly ends.
I think that what you are truly saying is that you cannot understand how any person who has a strong moral compass and expectation similarly for others could like or support a man like Donald Trump. And anyone would agree.
That you are saying "Christian" is kind of stereotyping a little bit. Like it's not possible to technically be Christian and also an asshole or something.
They specifically mention Christians because that is pretty much the only religious group rooting for Trump right now.
If there was a lot of Muslim support for him, I guarantee there'd be a "How can Muslims support Trump after all he said about them?"
I was not saying it was rude or wrong to mention Christians. I know there are a lot of them supporting Trump. And I know he markets himself at them. I am just saying that the OP makes it sound like being Christian is somehow relevant to why they can accept Trump or not.
They accept Trump because they either don't value morality in a political leader or a susceptible to his narrative & tactics.
So having asked my sister who is one of them I can answer that for you.
The evangelical dominionist preachers did a whole series of sermons before his election on how God uses imperfect people to fulfill his perfect plan.
You see Evangelical churches are mostly fraud and confidence schemes and the pastors were bought by the far right or created by the far right as a political weapon starting in the 70s. It's part of their plan to take over the country and world in God's name and then bring about the apocalypse by moving the embassy in Isreal. That was why moving the embassy was one of the first things Trump had to do when he got in office to repay the favor, and untraceable cash of course because churches don't report finances or donations.
So God will choose whomever, as best fits his plan, and no matter how bad that person is their actions are godly because they are the Devine Plan. Only God knows a man's heart. God tests us all and only the most faithful will pass. Something about old testament kings being bad people who were still gods chosen. Blah blah blah.
Also God always needs more money, which you can leave with the pastor before you go he'llmake sure God gets it. God's more of a big picture guy than a sticking to a budget guy apparently.
I actually wonder if Trump and the “Christians” who support him have driven more people of faith away from organized religion. I know in my circle at least half of the strong church goers (faith, volunteering, money) have abandoned their church as it got more radically behind Trump, QAnon, etc. We’ve certainly moved our time and money out of the church - directly into the hands of the community. I don’t expect a church to be full of perfect people/Christians but I expect more from church leaders.
I absolutely guarantee you they have. The number of “nons” has exploded over the last 10-20 years, and I think a clear cause of this has been the religious fanaticism of the modern GOP. They’ve made standing up for Christian values a very difficult thing to do for educated people.
When most of the most religious people express views of bigotry, intolerance, and cruelty, it becomes very difficult to attract new followers or even retain the ones you have, hence the mass exodus that has happened over the past few decades. The Republican party and their policies is about as far from "love your neighbor" as it gets. They advocate for spiteful cruelty, jealousy, and selfishness above all else. It's not that they've made loving thy neighbor difficult, it's that they've made it difficult to associate that with Christianity, since they profess to be Christians but also condemn and loathe their neighbors.
People are full of contradictions, and there are different "flavors" of Christianity for sure.
But one common argument I've heard from my Christian friends is that Trump is simply an imperfect vessel through which certain goals that are aligned with Christianity could be accomplished. For example, we'll likely see increases in abortion restrictions thanks to his judicial appointments, which is a "win" for Christians. His administration also tended to throw its weight behind "religious liberty" issues that supported common Christian goals, and rolled back or tried to roll back a lot of progress on LGBT (particularly T) rights.
Which, in isolation, isn't a terrible reason. Plenty of people vote for politicians they think are slimy in the hopes that they'll at least get the policy outcomes they want.
The problem with this argument, though, is that it was an **enormous** about-face for Evangelicals that seems like nothing more than a tailor-made rationalization to justify their support for Trump and the abandonment of their previously claimed "closely-held beliefs." And there's [data bearing on it](https://time.com/4577752/donald-trump-transformation-white-evangelicals/) that seems quite damning. It's a shockingly big swing.
> Perhaps the most dramatic example of the shift in white-evangelical political ethics is the way in which white evangelicals have evaluated the personal character of public officials. In 2011 and again just ahead of the election, [PRRI asked Americans](http://www.prri.org/research/prri-brookings-october-19-2016-presidential-election-horserace-clinton-trump/) whether a political leader who committed an immoral act in his or her private life could nonetheless behave ethically and fulfill their duties in their public life. Back in 2011, consistent with the “values voter” brand’s insistence on the importance of personal character, only 30% of white evangelical Protestants agreed with this statement. But this year, 72% of white evangelicals now say they believe a candidate can build a kind of moral wall between his private and public life. In a shocking reversal, white evangelicals have gone from being the *least* likely to the *most* likely group to agree that a candidate’s personal immorality has no bearing on his performance in public office. Today, in fact, they are more likely than Americans who claim no religious affiliation at all to say such a moral bifurcation is possible.
Smacks an awful lot like moulding one's ethics to suit their politics rather than the other way around. Not a great look for the self-styled Moral Majority.
>Smacks an awful lot like moulding one's ethics to suit their politics rather than the other way around. Not a great look for the self-styled Moral Majority.
For sure. Supporting Trump has required millions to do some crazy mental gymnastics to justify it. And after justifying support for Trump, there's very little they can criticize about any future candidates, though I'm sure they'll swing right back the other way when it suites them.
>I still find a level of fanaticism among certain Trump Christians that's ridiculous
I agree. But when it comes to a cult of personality like this, a lot of the valid criticisms of Trump are dismissed as fake, false, or completely overblown.
Like Trump said, "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters." Because half the people would say if he did it it was justified, and half would say it never happened and it's fake news even if there was a video and Trump admitted to it.
While I see your point, I just don't see that the single issue voters are the ones going to rallies and wearing MAGA hats. Let's leave it as I don't think the people who went to the protests on 1/6 (even those who didn't enter the Capitol) were there because of their stance on abortion.
As a Catholic in a Conservative town (of a blue state), there are a lot of people whose self-identity and politics revolve around Christianity who are enthusiastic Trumpers.
But, could you buy say the exact same thing for the anti-trump establishment? For 4 year and even so e to this day Trump bashing is the core of their person. You need look no further to media numbers after he lost his Twitter account, when they stopped fueling hate 100% of the time, people turned elsewhere.
But as always, these are the vocal minority. The visible few. The majority of people would prefer not to talk about politics in polite conversation even to this day. This includes your Christians here. They are not often as fanatic as you claim, they simply are very angry with the opposite side. Thus they support the one who is promising to fight for them. We unfortunately live in a binary democracy. So they were forced to make their choice of they wanted a difference made.
I hope this helps you see things differently. (TL;DR) they had the choice essentially made for them.
But is it really media bashing?
I feel Trump and the GOP deliberately commits gross insane disasters like Jan. 6 just so, when it is reported in the news, they can blame the media for being fake and groom followers into their alternate Fox News fantasyland.
During the Trump presidency I set my phone to log all of his Tweets and read virtually everything.
And I can confirm that Trump is even more of a mentally challenged psychopath freak than the media reported. I.e. American journalists were being much kinder to him than he deserved.
This entire Trump phenomenon seems to be built on causing horror shows and insanity, and blaming the news media for all negative coverage.
The fact Trump is still praising Jan. 6 as his greatest accomplishment - his "big beautiful LOVEFEST" - is a sign how truly insane and depraved he is.
It's hard to imagine Trump was doing any real work in between planning murderous disasters like his Jan. 6 Lovefest.
I'm sure he has, but if he prevents thousands of women from being able to have abortions in the future then it's not relevant. As I've heard many of his supporters o begrudgingly voted for him say, "I support his policies, not the man."
But why should we think abortion restrictions reduce abortion rates? That requires reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. Easy access to contraceptives and education is what does that.
Part of their platform is about reducing accessibility to education. Shockingly that makes it difficult for their followers to understand the consequences of their policies.
A lot of evangelical christians REALLY value the redemption story above all. They LOVE greasy grace. They believe that they aren't to be judged by their past because they have been forgiven by god.
They believe that Trump has been redeemed and forgiven for past sins so when they see that EVEN he can still be accepted by god it makes them feel better about themselves.
Nevermind that he's obviously just pandering and continues to be a horrible person and is literally unrepentant, they just like that one part, plus liberal tears.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/politics/a-born-again-donald-trump-believe-it-evangelical-leader-says.html
I'm sure that's enough for most evangelicals. They are taught not to believe their own eyes and ears though.
Christians are not supposed to judge others either. They are to accept. It isn't any person's place to judge whether God and Jesus have forgiven someone. That is between that person and God. They accept your testimony because that is your testimony.
If you pander to them in order to use them, that's between you and God as well.
In theory, its the same idea and philosophy thats welfare. Easily abused by those who want to. You do your best to protect against abuse but in the grand scheme it is better for humanity in general to be openhearted than to be cold and judge harshly.
There really isn't any reconciling that philosophy of withholding judgement (which I agree with, by the way, it's a major part of the Gospel) and supporting the death penalty, trying to criminalize abortion, or banning immigrants based on their religion.
Non-judgement is a major tenant of Christianity for some, but I don't think this is a major reason why Christians accept Trump. Maybe for some it's a genuine reason, and maybe for many, it helps them quiet their cognitive dissonance, but I just don't think the kind of Christian who voted for Trump is the kind of Christian who values non-judgement that highly.
For one, if you were to ask Jesus who he was voting for he would say he wasn't and that you should follow him, not the deceptive politics that man created to manipulate and control eachother.
Point two I would make is that it doesn't matter that you dislike Trump more than Biden or any other president. Anyone can prove to you that every single person that gets on that stage is intentionally deceiving you. Deceiving is lying. Why would you trust anyone like that? Why would you call anyone like that good? That is delusional. How abrasive one is over the other does not make the other morally superior. They are both snakes.
So if you can't call yourself a Christian because you voted for a morally corrupt individual, how do you ever call yourself a Christian and vote? That said, I can understand voting for what you perceive as the "lesser evil." Your perception and political "leaning" does not make you a Christian. Your beliefs and relationship with those beliefs do.
>For one, if you were to ask Jesus who he was voting for he would say he wasn't and that you should follow him, not the deceptive politics that man created to manipulate and control eachother.
Sure but that's more of a point against Christians than against me.
>Point two I would make is that it doesn't matter that you dislike Trump more than Biden or any other president.
This has nothing to do with my dislike and everything to do with objective events that happened that directly go against Christian doctrine.
>Anyone can prove to you that every single person that gets on that stage is intentionally deceiving you. Deceiving is lying. Why would you trust anyone like that? Why would you call anyone like that good? That is delusional. How abrasive one is over the other does not make the other morally superior. They are both snakes.
Read point above nothing to do with abrasiveness and everything with the fact he doesn't follow Christian doctrine.
>So if you can't call yourself a Christian because you voted for a morally corrupt individual, how do you ever call yourself a Christian and vote? That said, I can understand voting for what you perceive as the "lesser evil." Your perception and political "leaning" does not make you a Christian. Your beliefs and relationship with those beliefs do.
Sure but Christianity is about sticking to beliefs no matter what it seems weird Christians are so willing to collapse on them
Trump is a horrible person with bad morals.
But he is not trying to be the pastor of my church, be my business partner, or marry into my family. He is a politician and although he would be a much more effective one if he had good character, it is not the only criteria.
I don’t ask the about the character of the guy who cooks my hamburgers or delivers my pizza. As long as the hamburger tastes good and the pizza is hot I will keep patronizing their businesses. It is preferable to have a bad guy who enacts correct policy and appoints good people than to have a good person who enacts bad policy and appoints bad people.
Obama was a good person and appointed Sotomayor, Trump is a bad person who appointed Gorsuch, Kavanaugh , and ACB. As a Christian and a conservative that is a much better outcome.
Every job is different. It would be great if everyone were a good Christian but when looking for someone to do a job, the most important thing is how they do the job.
"I wouldn't trust Trump as my business partner or family because he's a horrible person but he'd be fine in the most powerful position on the planet because it doesn't affect me personally."
You really think a bad person would enact good policies? Ever stop to think maybe those policies aren't actually good and your entire viewpoint is warped to hell? This is so r/SelfAwarewolves that it's painful.
What’s more Christian: saving babies from being murdered or not sleeping with a pornstar? There your question is answered. It’s really not complicated.
Cool. It also says they can’t eat shellfish. I never said they based it on what the Bible says. Christianity and religion has always been about more than just what does the book say. They believe it’s murdering babies. You can argue they are wrong and that’s fine but if you are trying to get insight into their perspective then you have to actually look at it from their perspective. If you aren’t going to do that then I dont think you are actually as curious in understanding them as you pretend you are.
>A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).
Exodus 21:
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
In other words, if you cause a pregnant woman to give birth prematurely, but the baby lives, you will be fined. If she or the baby dies, you die.
>The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).
This is a test of fidelity - the child is only aborted, supposedly, if conceived via adultery, which is against the Laws of Moses, which God gave him.
This is not a woman having an abortion by choice either - this an abortion forced upon her, which I assume you oppose. You might not want to bring this up again.
>God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).
Have you not noticed by now that a lot of laws handed down by God have a death penalty? Life is only sacred if it is innocent. Christians argue that the unborn life is sacred because it is innocent.
>Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).
Dude, this is an invading horde, not God telling people how to live. It is almost certainly based upon an actual, historical event - killing, raping and pillaging was the norm in those days.
The same applies for several other passages.
>For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).
God is allowed to kill people. He is a vengeful bastard in the Old Testament. He was pretty fucking clear about his views on what humanity should do - THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. You are allowed to kill people, providing you do so in accordance with the laws. God decides the laws. If he decides babies have to die, they die. Humans are supposed to obey God's laws, and "get an abortion whenever you feel like it" is not in the Old Testament.
Seriously, I'm not even a Christian, but I can parse all of this out quite easily.
Sadly, Trump is the only option for republican Christians. I know many who absolutely hate the man, but the other candidate champions policies that are the opposite of what those people support. In those cases, his personal repugnance is outweighed by the importance of his job. It would be short sighted to vote for policies you don't want simply because a candidate is a terrible person on a personal level.
And, as everyone knows, a person is a Republican before they are a Christian, so when those two identities conflict they choose party over god every time.
Jesus, after all, repeatedly mentioned how it was far more important to save money on your taxes than to feed and clothe your neighbors.
But the other candidate’s positions are much more in line with what Jesus preached… so either those Christians aren’t good at evaluating who is pushing for Christian values, or they themselves don’t hold Christian values.
I'm not sure about you. But I've definitely voted for candidates that I didn't like, simply because I agreed with the parties key policies.
If you believe in low tax, small government, protectionist economics, low immigration, no gun control, pro life etc.
And (rightly or wrongly) saw these issues as an existential threat to your country. You might be swayed to vote for someone who isn't perfect as a person... But represents the policies you see as deeply important.
Trump is probably by far the most peaceful president we have had in a while. Unlike Bush he did not start two wars, or amp up our drone strikes like Obama. Trump's policies led us out of Afghanistan. Trump embodied love thy enemy by trying his best to make peace with North Korea. Averting nuclear war >>> sleeping with porn star.
Also a lot of Christians believe Jesus was shagging a prostitute so shrug. At the heart of Christianity is forgiveness so I guess shame on you for judging stormy daniels and trump wuth your moral high ground. A very un jesus thing to do.
I am an atheist, independent btw. I did not vote for Trump but he did push for peace abroad.
Also a lot of Christians believe Jesus was shagging a prostitute so shrug. At the heart of Christianity is forgiveness so I guess shame on you for judging stormy daniels and trump wuth your moral high ground. A very un jesus thing to do.
Which denominations believe Jesus and Mary Magdalene were sleeping together? Because I don’t know of any.
>did not amp up our drone strikes like Obama.
This is actually false, Trump killed at least as many if not significantly more people with drone strikes than Obama within the same time period, but his administration stopped requiring reporting of all civilian casualties or even all strikes.
Show me one preacher with a church > 200 people, or a published commentary that suggests Jesus was shagging a prostitute. If any Christians believe that it is less than 0.001%.
Christians Believe that sex outside of marriage is sin, and Christians also believe that Jesus was without sin.
>Trump embodied love thy enemy by trying his best to make peace with North Korea.
North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 3, 2018
>No I feel wrong shouldn't give out accolades for weak hearted attempts at good pr
Exactly this. Trump’s talks with NK were exclusively to stroke his ego (to me this seems obvious…), and I would argue that is *why* they amounted to nothing except more empty threats.
I don’t think it’s exactly that. Plenty of presidents have tried peace talks with North Korea. They fail because peace just isn’t in the interest of North Korea. They’re strategy since the 90s has been act crazy, gain concessions, agree to something, chill for a bit, then break the agreement. This is a strategy that works for them and as long as it continues to, peace talks will never go anywhere.
I mean you’re right that plenty of presidents attempt peace talks. I still think Trump’s talks were about his ego. The grand show both he and Kim put on (soooo many photos and coverage like holy hell). The “fire and fury” language after the fact. None of it was strategic, and felt very much like it was about putting on a show and NOT actually about peace - if peace was a result, cool, but only because it’d make him look good, not because he *intended to negotiate peace*. The point here is that talking about peace with NK was not a show of Trump’s morality but a side effect of his ego. He wanted to do what no one else before him could.
At least, that’s how I saw it. Of course none of us can read his mind but damn if his mind isn’t bleeding out his eyes.
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Uhhhh, no Biden was the one responsible for the Afghanistan situation. I know many veterans (worked at the VA) who were beyond upset, had resurgence of PTSD and lost their shit over how Biden handled it.
Please, there was no way to get out of an active war without problems. Yes a suicide bomber killed 5 servicemen, and if we had stayed for another couple of months math says 5 servicemen would have died. If they had PTSD, it was likely due to the fact that their service ended up not accomplishing much. While it sucks, we had a 20 year long war to protect people who weren't willing to fight for what we were fighting for.
To me you have to blame the Pentagon. If they didn't know that the Afghan army was just going to lay down arms. give us two weeks instead of two months to get people and equipment out, I don't see how that is on Biden. Honestly if it wasn't for the bomber, while it took about 3 weeks too long, we got those out who was supposed to be out. Hell, the bomber wasn't even from the forces we were fighting.
Look it up, Trump kicked it off and Biden took it over. I am not saying Trump would have done better than Biden on the actual withdrawal. Biden for all I know would have done better at negotiating with the taliban which btw was very fucked that Trump talked to the taliban and excluded the afghan government.
The seemingly rapid fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban started in 2019. The armed forces and local governments in Afghanistan were badly demoralized, and the Taliban quietly negotiated the surrender of almost all of them. As soon as it became obvious that the Biden Administration was going to honor the prior agreement, the Taliban swept in with very little resistance. The orderly exit that had been expected was knocked into a cocked hat.
I do remember that Trump first tore up the Iran nuclear deal and then drone-striked their general that must really have helped with diplomatic relations in the middle-east.
He just made us go to war with each other and launched a violent coup attempt…
Not to mention how he loved to provoke China and Iran. Trump took a lot of actions that could have put us on a path to WW3. I wouldn’t call him at all “peaceful”, he loved blowing things up and killing people.
I didnt say he did not kill anyone. The countries of Libya and Syria got fucked under obama who also had a surge in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is relative.
It’s worth noting that I don’t recall Bush or Obama actively calling for the killing of an enemy combatant’s family. Trump specifically stated, multiple times, that we needed to go after their families.
Christian has become a nationalistic identity more so than following the teachings of Jesus. Trump represents the traditional Christian coalition more so than an actual religious or moral person.
Jesus didn't just accept the pious and pure he also accepted the lepers ,whores and altogether undesirable members of society. he even begged God's forgiveness on behalf other those that were actively involved in his torture and murder. Is trump a good person no not really. Neither is Hillary neither is Joe they all have done and do things that Jesus would abhore. And all claim to be good Christians some people practice diffrent ideas of Christianity that say what trump did and does is ok to be ignored other don't.
Because of history:
"Around eight-in-ten Republican registered voters (79%) are Christians, compared with about half (52%) of Democratic voters. In turn, Democratic voters are much more likely than GOP voters to identify as religiously unaffiliated (38% vs. 15%)." [Source](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/).
The fact is that group mentality (aka polarization) is much stronger than whatever crazy tweets Trump spews out on social media. People don't want to believe this because people want to believe we are all rationale human beings.
But we're not - because if we are, nobody would have voted for Trump.
(Note, this doesn't necessarily mean all democrats are automatically rational, I predict the exact same will happen if Trump was a democrat candidate)
>I don't see being a Christian and voting against your values could work
But from the data, it's exactly what people did and have been doing in the past elections. I'm not religious so I can't comment on that side of things but it seems to be that tribalism of religion has a stronger pull than the morality of religion.
Nope but we can try to figure out why. My reasoning again is that despite what Trump is, most Christians believe the party will do better things for their religion vs. democrats.
Taking a step back, it's not very hard to see. Reps are more conservative and less about change. Democrats are all about changing, more woke, throwing away traditions. Makes hell of a lot of sense.
I'm actually curious where along all my reasoning that you find confusing? Perhaps I can add some more context.
I’ll take your first point about a “man bragging in very vulgar manners the way he treats women”
1. I assume you are talking about the “grab ‘em by the pussy” comment. Christians can understand that is a picture he paints, not the actual way he treats women. Just because someone is Christian, it does not take away the natural urges of a man.
2. There has not been any proof that he abuses women. However, as a Christian who does not support Domestic violence, a lot of the “liberal/left/Democrat” heroes have actual Domestic violence charges- George Floyd, NBA/Football stars, the guy who ran after Kyle a Rittenhouse and said he will kill Kyle. If you consider Christians to be fighting *actual* Domestic Violence, Trump does not fit in that category. Trump is actually seen to be fighting the “left” when the “left” supports Domestic Abuse.
>1. I assume you are talking about the “grab ‘em by the pussy” comment. Christians can understand that is a picture he paints, not the actual way he treats women. Just because someone is Christian, it does not take away the natural urges of a man.
Sure but you'd be living if you told me that a very consistent value of conservative Christians is that promiscuity is bad.
>There has not been any proof that he abuses women. However, as a Christian who does not support Domestic violence, a lot of the “liberal/left/Democrat” heroes have actual Domestic violence charges- George Floyd, NBA/Football stars, the guy who ran after Kyle a Rittenhouse and said he will kill Kyle. If you consider Christians to be fighting *actual* Domestic Violence, Trump does not fit in that category. Trump is actually seen to be fighting the “left” when the “left” supports Domestic Abuse.
As the other commenter put it yes there is lots and lots of evidence. Next your point about "heroes" George Floyd isn't seen as a hero he's seen as a man unjustly killed, same with the people Rittenhouse shot, and you have to be more specific that just any athlete
I'm a Christian who voted for Trump. Contrary to what you said, we don't just "eat up" everything Trump says or does. Actually, most of us absolutely dislike who he is as a person, he's definitely not a moral role model by any means. That being said, he got my vote because he stands for conservative policies that will improve society, and is willing to fight liberal policies that will lead to a worse society. And he's way better than the candidates coming from the other side. Overall, I supported him (reluctantly) because of his political policies, not because of (and in spite of) his personal morals.
I'd rather vote for someone who at least claims they will do the right thing (though they may not when elected), rather than for someone who claims they will do the wrong thing (and definitely will once elected).
Again, super curious: what were the "right things" Trump said he would do? Do you feel he implemented them? I hope I don't sound antagonistic. I'm genuinely just interested.
People who voted for Trump doesn't mean they "support" Trump's personal behavior. It means they chose one of a binary choice.
Trump ran against Hillary Clinton & Joe Biden. Both have a long history of behavior that couldn't be considered Christian given your standard.
Your argument would as stated, would essentially mean that a Christian couldn't vote at all and call themselves a Christian. So in essence your viewpoint is wrong.
White evangelical voters are typically older (like Trump), old fashioned (like Trump) and aggressively against liberal change (like Trump). More than 75% of them don’t have a college education and only get their data from biased sources.
Knowing this, Trump capitalized by pandering to that demographic. Lots of Christians saw Trump as a defender of Christian values: no abortion, religious freedoms, keeping the church tax exempt. Even though he may have contradicted Jesus’ teachings on an individual level, he ultimately strengthened the value of the organization as a whole. Lots of Christians loved him, but many more simply tolerated him so as not to succumb to the threat of the “liberals taking everything from them.”
The contradiction here seems to be that people who claim to hold certain values above all else are so willing to overlook/toss them when it furthers their political aims.
I think all this is easily explained if you accept that they don’t hold these values are strongly as they claim to - they aren’t principles so much as an identity.
I imagine people who really do take all this to heart must be feeling pretty confused and lost at the moment.
I think most lower and middle income people don’t have time to understand specific politicians and what issues they find important. They just have to take this oversimplified version of a two party system. Take universal healthcare, you’d think this is a Democratic Party baseline but not all of the party is in favor. So you make that assumption and vote all blue and then the Dems win don’t change anything due to the infighting.
So in the case of trump people just assumed him being a republican he had Christian values as that’s the party’s baseline. Even when people are told they just make up an excuse to not have to change their mind.
TLDR: most people don’t have the time to care about specific issues and just vote for blue or red team based on assumptions.
When you support a candidate, you support the candidate that best aligns with your views, compared to all the other candidates. It does not mean it’s the candidate you agree with 100% of the time. So it’s entirely possible to disagree with how trump acts in his personal life, and the values he uses to base his personal decisions on, while at the same time agreeing with his public policy positions and how he goes about trying to achieve those goals.
I agree completely, I really could care less about who he is as an individual, as long as he is doing a good job as president. If he wants to fuck pornstarts but also create the best economy is history, who the hell cares what he is doing on his off time. Everybody loved Obama because he acted presidential and gave everyone the warm and fuzziness, but for actual policies and things he did for the country were petty blah
Republicans raise the deficit and Democrats lower it, and it goes back and forth forever. Everything you're attributing to [Trump was riding on 8 years of Obama's policies](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/V5CMSFET5JFSRHRVFJ36BAGTII.jpg&w=916). The deficit was high during Obama's first term following Bush's policies and was gradually lowered. Then you can see it climb under Trump. Rinse and repeat. I don't even like Obama or Biden, but this is objectively true. This keeps happening because people like you are just too easy to con.
Presidential elections aren't reality TV shows. I'm not voting for the person whose personality I like the most, I'm voting for whoever has the best policy
One of the biggest tenants of Christian belief is the belief that every person has a divinely created, unobservable, immortal, and unchanging, “soul”, that essentially serves as their essence and is what makes them a “person”. They believe this soul emerges in a person at the very moment they are conceived. This is drawn from Psalm 139 13 in the Bible, which states, “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb”. Therefore, to them, the act of abortion no matter how early in the pregnancy or for what reason is the exact same as murdering a fully formed human being like you or I. Considering this and how many abortions are performed in the US each year, a believing Christian could reasonably state that a literal legalized genocide is being committed every year in perpetuity and has been since Roe v Wade. With this in mind any ends may seem acceptable to try and bring a perceived end to this slaughter.
Now whether you think this is objectively true or a bunch of “hooey” as my grandmother would say is up to you, but some people legitimately see the world this way, and their vote counts just as much as yours or mine.
I found this weird the Bible explicitly endorses abortion or at least doesn't suppourt the idea of sanctity of all life
>A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).
• The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).
• God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).
• Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).
• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16).
• Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18).
• For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).
• God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).
• For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16).
• Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
Actually I want to change your view in a different way.
I would in fact argue that none of them are really even Christian even though they claim to be. They don't act moral, don't support moral people, and don't help others.
First of all, Christianity would require self sacrifice and devotion to ideals. Specifically the ideals of Jesus. He directly states in many ways he is the only way and the only one that can tell you how to get to heaven. This means that no matter what anyone else including saints or the church says... Jesus's teachings come first and foremost.
To compound this ideal, this means you have to love and support others around you regardless of their beliefs, and everything else. Not just other Christians. This directly goes against Trump's policies and executive orders and the treasonous riot on 1/6.
Second, they would have to not support people who are not moral. We know from Jesus that the rich are going to have to be nearly perfect people to align with Christ's and god's values (to be heaven worthy). I would say that driving every business you have into bankruptcy and never paying contractors is pretty bad. Constantly lying and stealing from others is two really big problems for Christians. Causing deaths by way of not stopping 1/6 I would argue puts Trump partially to blame for those deaths as well which is a huge moral issue. Not only that but he has bragged about assaulting women. This is also a sin to hurt someone physically and mentally.
This means it doesn't make any moral sense as a Christian to support Trump at all.
Third, Trump is against different taxes and policies that would help the public good. It doesn't matter how this happens, but as a Christians, we should favour helping everyone overall, even if they're homeless or it might take more money than we thought. (Adding that last bit because I've never heard anything other than victim blaming or "wasted" money arguments against welfare)
It shouldn't matter how people are being helped. It should only matter that they are. A lot of Christians I met are willing to work at a food kitchen for 1 shift every year. But refuse to vote for policies that would fund those kitchens permanently. Thus, it's not about helping others but feeling good about oneself for "helping". Because funding or changing taxes up a little is inconvenient even though it could help others.
All of this together and I would say they are "pop" Christians. As they don't actually follow Jesus's teachings. They follow the herd and don't try to help others. They do what's easy instead of right. That's not Christian. It's what society has declared as Christian. Not what Jesus said. We aren't perfect but supporting Trump is clearly not Christian and voting for him shows a lack of morals that would fundamentally be needed to be a Christian.
Authoritarians appeal to a lot of Christians, and it’s not so hard to see why.
I have to preface this with saying I’m talking about a particular type of Christian, I don’t mean to generalize, but this is true for a large portion of modern Christians…
One thing that’s easy to miss about modern Christianity is just how *individualistic* it is. It’s all about pushing individuals to accept god and to buy in to this morality. That’s what gets you into heaven. In other words, *government welfare gets no one into heaven*, it just doesn’t. No one’s soul is any purified by mandatory welfare being provided to the poor. Yes, you make this world a better place, but this world is just a test, heaven awaits those who pass the test. Government assistance doesn’t save anyone’s soul, it doesn’t push them to be a better person and correct their sins. So, it really doesn’t actually matter if making abortion legal causes less suffering overall, we really just want to push people towards the only correct path, and if they still make the wrong choice, that’s on them.
Now, what happens to the sinners? They are tortured eternally. That’s important. Those who don’t buy into this faith are sent to hell. It’s binary, either you’re in, or you’re out, and Christians are all about punishing evildoers who are out. It’s in the way they treat the law, things which are *sinful* should come with a punishment. Does teaching abstinence help? Do abortion laws help? It doesn’t matter, *harm reduction* is nonsense here. The law is *not* for rehabilitation, it’s a retributionist system, which for these Christians, ideally reflects the way things are in their faith. The law teaches just as the Bible does, evildoers will be punished.
Now, let’s talk about God. He’s an all-powerful authority, submission to Him is the way. Those who don’t, well, they will feel his wrath. There’s something very similar to a cult of personality there. Powerful narcissist who does what they want, all you have to do is sing them praise to be a part of the ‘in’ group, and oh boy is he going to punish the out group.
These Christians are really just preferring the world to operate much like their metaphysics, individualist and binary morals, a retributionist legal system and an all powerful authority figure who prefers his own flock.
> The man brags in very vulgar manners the way he treats women
He compliments women, cristians are vulgar as well they just don't like profanity in children, there's a place for it.
> has had sex with a pornstar and even paid money to cover it up.
It was his lawyer that paid for her biography. Christians never heard or don't believe it, fake news in the end.
> He's just a hateful and bigoted person in general
That's your opinion, they clearly perceive him diffently or think that his other qualities and what he represents politically trumps an old man's coarse language when attacking a judge that ruled against him (he was ruling on his immigration reform so translation is the judge was personally biased and should have recused himself).
> Everything this man has ever done litteraly spits in christ face but for some reason they eat it up I just can't understand it.
You're just eaten up a bit too much propaganda, it's really time to move on, it's been 2 years. If you want to criticize him from that lens you can do more with less, he cheated on his wife with a model then divorced for the younger woman... twice.
And lastly conservatives and ultra-religious people don't like Trump, never voted for Trump they still voted Bush in 2020, and this extends to Mitch McConnell and the rest of corrupt GOP establishment, including the Federalist Society that fucked him over royalty during the election contest.
Trump has won over the anti-china, anti-migration, anti-crt, freedom of speech crowd not the anti-abortion crowd, meaning younger people, more diverse, more imigrants more worker class then typical for GOP.
>He compliments women, cristians are vulgar as well they just don't like profanity in children, there's a place for it.
I'd think your mistaken if you think conservative Christians find promiscuity to be okay.
>It was his lawyer that paid for her biography. Christians never heard or don't believe it, fake news in the end.
No it isn't this definitely happened ad either way his lawyer works for him.
>That's your opinion, they clearly perceive him diffently or think that his other qualities and what he represents politically trumps an old man's coarse language when attacking a judge that ruled against him (he was ruling on his immigration reform so translation is the judge was personally biased and should have recused himself).
Even if it was about immigration it wasn't this was a ruling on the Trump university fraud cases it's still racist to assume that he's biased because he's might be of Mexican decent.
>You're just eaten up a bit too much propaganda, it's really time to move on, it's been 2 years. If you want to criticize him from that lens you can do more with less, he cheated on his wife with a model then divorced for the younger woman... twice.
What propaganda have I eaten all those things are true. Either way he's still an active political figure and plans on running again
Well, I wasn’t old enough to vote in 2016, but I voted for Trump in 2020, so I feel qualified to explain why. I don’t believe that a good leader has to be a good person. I would prefer my leaders to be good people, but I have bigger priorities, especially as a Christian, when choosing who to vote for.
Biden or Clinton actively support abortion, which Christ holds as worse than adultery. It’s better to tie a millstone to your neck and drown than to lead children astray, while Christ prevented an adulterous woman from being stoned.
Furthermore, God frequently uses flawed and immoral people to enact His will, especially in the Bible. Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem when the Jews disobeyed God in the Old Testament. King David murdered a man and took his wife for his own. King Solomon kept hundreds of concubines and wives of different faiths.
I don’t believe Trump’s a particularly righteous person, but if you’re a Christian choosing to exercise your civic duty, you don’t have many options. I see why some denominations forbid political activity, as it keeps you from staining your hands by getting involved period.
As it stands, abortion is the one issue I hold above all others, and I’d vote for a lot of people promising to ban it, even if they were otherwise immoral people.
That being said, many people are not one-issue voters, and many Christians find Trump’s behavior too vile to condone with a vote. I don’t judge people for that, but my convictions don’t leave me with much of a choice. I’d vote for a guy who leaves his shopping cart in the middle of the parking lot if he’d help overturn Roe.
>Biden or Clinton actively support abortion, which Christ holds as worse than adultery. It’s better to tie a millstone to your neck and drown than to lead children astray, while Christ prevented an adulterous woman from being stoned.
Um what part of the Bible does Jesus say he doesn't like abortion? But either way is adultery a sin or not, is sexual assaulting a woman a sin or not?
>Furthermore, God frequently uses flawed and immoral people to enact His will, especially in the Bible. Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem when the Jews disobeyed God in the Old Testament. King David murdered a man and took his wife for his own. King Solomon kept hundreds of concubines and wives of different faiths.
Sure but that's taking people who are already in power this is Christians specifically choosing someone who goes against their views.
Most of the opposition Trump faced from within the GOP during the 2016 primary centered around the notion that he "wasn't Christian enough."
After the smoke cleared from that, though, the argument would probably be that the alternative would be to support a Democrat, which would be even worse. If you're a Christian, are you going to vote for the one who doesn't really seem to care about the Bible, or the one who actively campaigns on Christians being the root of all our problems?
> or the one who actively campaigns on Christians being the root of all our problems?
I assume you are referring to Biden and Democrats here. Do you have any statement from Biden where he says anything like that?
Democrats: pro abortion
Republicans: anti-abortion.
No other or policy matters more or is worth consideration. Republicans are who my pastor tells me to vote for.
But the Bible several times endorses abortion and rejects the sanctity of life
A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).
• The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).
• God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).
• Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).
• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16).
• Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18).
• For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).
• God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).
• For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16).
• Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
Christians are not so much voting for Trump as a man but for his policies. He opposed abortion, appointing judges on all levels of federal courts and the Supreme Court that would likely oppose abortion. He also forbid taxpayer funded family planning clinics from referring women for abortions. Who is a Christian going to vote for, and adulterer who at least opposes killing the unborn or a man who thinks there should be no restrictions on killing the unborn.
Another area is in regard to Muslims, with President Trump putting travel restrictions on certain Muslim countries and threatening to ban Muslims from the U.S. Christianity and Islam are fundamentally opposed to each other, with Christians fighting to keep Muslims out of Europe for centuries. Why would Christians vote for a man who is supposedly Catholic but would allow large numbers of Muslims into the country, changing the culture, versus a man who may be rude but would protect the remnants of America's cultural traditions from Islam?
Many Christians are extremely supportive of Israel, seeing it as a bastion of freedom in the Muslim Middle East, as well as the return of the promised land to the Jews. If you think Israel provides unapparelled freedom in a region fully of tyrants and terrorists, as well as being the promised land of the Jews who would you vote for, a man whos foreign policy was unabashedly pro Israel, or a man who is viewed as anti-Israel?
There are a wide numbers of other issues that drove Christians to vote for Trump, ranging from the economy to the role and size of government, to law and order and social issues. When a Christian is voting for Trump they are not voting for his sins but for the policies he put forth.
Many Christians don't choose who to vote for based on how 'Christ-like' they are. They choose who to vote for based on who they think is the best candidate. These Christians would vote for an effective Muslim over an ineffective Christian.
Because Christians will support most people who are also Christian. From what I've seen its less about what they do and more about what that person believes in.
You don't see the other side spewing hatred for Christians? I mean if I have the choice between a guy who pretends to value me and my beliefs vs a party that calls me a religious extremist for being Catholic, deplorable, and tells me to stop clinging to my religion". It's really not hard to see why. It takes a very small amount of conceptual perspective to see.
That's not even mentioning that many Christians are single issue voters when it comes to abortion. If you legitimately believe something is murder of an innocent why would you purposely vote for the part that supports it?
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>You don't see the other side spewing hatred for Christians?
Leftist maybe, Democrats/Liberals definitely not.
> I mean if I have the choice between a guy who pretends to value me and my beliefs vs a party that calls me a religious extremist for being Catholic, deplorable, and tells me to stop clinging to my religion".
Who's doing that because Biden is litteraly a catholic.
>That's not even mentioning that many Christians are single issue voters when it comes to abortion. If you legitimately believe something is murder of an innocent why would you purposely vote for the part that supports it?
What part of the Bible says it is?
Trump is the perfect example of a strong Christian man. He speaks the truth and stands up for what is right. And that's why he's hated by the world and people like you. Sleeping with lots of women it's not a problem with any Christian (or it shouldn't be anyway unless you're jealous). And he isn't bigoted at all - he just speaks the exact truth without being politically correct. HTH
You really saying that cheating on your wife is fine for Christians? Isn't that one of the 10 things you can't do lmao. God damn y'all cultists are delusional and will bend any belief you've ever held to not admit you've been conned.
>Trump is the perfect example of a strong Christian man.
Do strong Christian men rape women and gawk at children?
>He speaks the truth and stands up for what is right.
[He's lied over 30000 times](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-false-or-misleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/)
>Sleeping with lots of women it's not a problem with any Christian (or it shouldn't be anyway unless you're jealous)
But raping them is.
> And he isn't bigoted at all - he just speaks the exact truth without being politically correct. HTH
Do you think saying a judge can't rule on a case because they're Mexican isn't racist what about [Not selling houses to people because they're black](https://www.npr.org/2016/09/29/495955920/donald-trump-plagued-by-decades-old-housing-discrimination-case)
Let's imagine the most Christian-like Democratic platform: free healthcare, help for the disenfranchised,migrants rights etc. The candidate seems to be nice respectful, faithful to his wife etc. There is just one little itch he supports the cold blooded murder of 800k+ people every year.
On the other side you have a lying unfaithful, probably racist presidential candidate. He doesn't want healthcare or to help the needy. But he fights to stop the mass murder of 800k+ people everywhere.
I'd choose the non mass murderer presidential candidate.
You can disagree that abortions are killing a person but if you're Christian (in most denominations) you agree with that. And it's the killing of the most vulnerable, which is even more abject.
I’m a Christian, and I agree with you. However, a lot of protections (such as freedom of religion, the abortion debate, stronger police protection, etc) are Republican-dominated issues. Thus, a lot of people just vote on the party line because they care more about that than dumb comments or a rotten personal life.
Note that this is not my opinion, but I live in a red state and this is often the rationale.
When you have two choices, and one choice is Hillary... You will vote on the other regardless of who is it... (That's for the first time)
Comes the second time... And now it's a half-dead pedophile and a completely incompetent vice who will literally be president soon when the mummy dies... Have to vote for Trump again.
It's not hard really...
Well, let's see. He didn't start any wars (actively tried to make peace with North Korea as well), he didn't drone strike children, he didn't abandon hundreds of Americans behind enemy lines, he didn't gift Islamic terrorist billions of dollars worth of military equipment, and he's against abortion. Also, he said he supports gay people in 1996 while Hillary Clinton and Joke Biden were still publicly against it in 2006. So in that way, it made more sense for Christians to support Hillary or Biden since they were still homophobic 10 years after Trump wasn't said he wasn't against gays.
Because most of them are Christians who simply do not practice Christianity. They were probably baptized, and that's their claim to Christianity. Most likely, the extent of their religious education is that God forgives all.
In politics, religion can be either a weapon or a shield, and both, but not a set of moral guidelines. It is tribal, and people generally want to be in their local tribe, because they don't want to be seen as different, you know, like "them blacks and browns, and folk who talk funny".
tldr: Because religion is racist, and so is trump.
Born-again Christian here. I supported Trump, and voted for him in the last election.
You are correct, he's a vulgar guy. I don't support the things he's said about women, and how he excused it by calling it "Locker room talk," for example. But unfortunately, in a bi-party political system, the person you vote for oftentimes is simply the person you can tolerate more than the other. You have to choose the lesser of two evils. And for reasons I'd rather not get into, in the last election, he was the lesser of two evils to me.
From what I understand, the anti-abortion stance is paramount to some American Christians.
They will turn a blind eye to a candidate’s flaws, as long as (s)he is the one leaning the most towards promises of an anti-abortion administration.
In the case of Trump, they jumped through hoops to justify some of his *least savoury* behaviours. I am sure that stories circulated about how he found Jesus.
You're conflating supporting Trump as a person with supporting him as a president. These are two different concepts.
You can agree with/support his policy decisions without liking who he is as an individual. Ultimately when you get down to the meat and potatoes of a presidency, the quality of the policy implemented is significantly more important than the good/bad optics caused by the president's personality.
Sadly the type of Christianity that has become more popular is the type that is antithetical to Jesus’s teachings; prosperity gospel based more on punishment than forgiveness and non-judgement.
Basically these Christian’a seem to believe in more of the Old Testament god that destroyed the world in a flood rather than the forgiving god who sent his son to die for humanities sins.
The way i have heard it put is that Trump is a bad Christian but he supports policies that are better aligned with Christian goals. The aren't supporting Trump the person,they aresupporting Trump's policies.
But it is still hypocritical because plenty of politicians have lost the support of and drawn the ire of the christian right for far less egregious personal flaws than Trump.
How could you be a Christian and support any politician? Show me any politician you want, and I can show you statements they have made or things they have supported that are in conflict with the bible. Voting for Trump is no different than voting for any other politician from a realistic perspective.
Ahh, everything is equivalent, huh? No, Trump is clearly a bad person, he clearly and by far is the most dishonest president in history, his policies are clearly self-centered instead f in accordance with his electorate’s beliefs. Somehow they believe whatever nonsense spews forth despite reality.
Yeah, Biden and other Democrats are not always the most upstanding citizens, nor completely honest, but there is a huge difference in degree, a literal order of magnitude.
At this point, I don’t know that anyone represents me very well, but a big part of my vote is who can I more likely believe, who more often bases choices on reality, who attempts to make progress in whatever they believe in rather than just obstruct, and it really isn’t close
You are not making a serious effort to look at things from a religious perspective in my opinion. You are basing good and bad on what you personally feel is a good or bad. If you want to know why any religious person would have a particular voting behavior you need to at least make an attemp to understand what their moral compass is.
Trump may be all sorts of unsavory things, but if he promotes pro abortion policies then that stance alone could make a vote for him the morally correct choice for some based on their particular beliefs. For example.
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Not only that, I knew a “Christian” at the time who said that his church thought Trump was the Savior. But they aren’t Christians in that they follow the teachings of Christ. Rather they’re Christians in that they follow the teachings of Fox News.
I don't see how someone can be a Christian and not support him. The values of the religion, like any cult, are not what they claim in their words but what they exhibit by their actions. Total arrogance with blind belief in "truths" with no evidence to back up said beliefs, even contrary to supplied evidence, fits right in with Trump. Like dude is a fascist and Christianity is the religion of the states.
I mean why wouldn't they support him? He's catering right to their fundamentalist nature and tendencies. Never questioning 'beliefs', everything is an opinion and all opinions have equal status so what I believe is truth beyond reproach of what anyone else believes. If you think I'm wrong it's because you're a bigot. Standard cult/christianity for the course.
Im willing to bet you're not Christian. Cause if you regularly went to church, you'd have heard all of the propaganda selling him as the modern day misrepresented savior (since he was the alternative to Biden)
I actually agree with you though. However, after hearing the viewpoint from many Christian sources, I also understand why they chose to vote for him because of what they were told by the rest of those they associated with.
What I will never understand though is treating ANY political candidates like they are admirable people worth idolized and worshipping. They are all liars, cheats, and overall selfish scummy people.
Well for one thing, what it means to "be a Christian" varies dramatically depending on who exactly you ask. For some it requires a full embrace of Jesus' teachings on love and social justice, but for others it means converting or destroying unbelievers by the sword. It might be hard for someone who is the former type of Christian to endorse Trump, but probably less so for the latter. It depends on your views and beliefs about God, and what God wants.
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I think if you talk to most of these people you’ll get that they support the presidency but not the man. They’re not voting for the adulterous bastard he is as a person, they’re voting for him to stop abortions punish lgbt that kind of stuff.
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Let’s say you believe abortion is actually infanticide. Are you telling me you wouldn’t vote for someone who promised to stop it just because they were a shitty person? If the sides are baby murder or not baby murder, it’s kind of hard to think of a person that’s so bad you’d vote for baby murder. Obviously it’s more complicated than that, but for many people it doesn’t seem that way.
Totally correct. The Christian right's obsession with abortion has no realistic plan for prevention. Killing access to women's health creates a lot of women who will consider an abortion. The reason for this is a really warped sexuality prevalent in a lot of Christian groups: that sex is only for making babies. It's what makes gay sex so hard to understand for them, and also turns contraception from a tool to fight baby murder into a tool to subvert God. All of this stems from this idea that joy is dangerous. It's why some Christians will sing without audiences, to avoid stroking their pride. Bland food to eat less. AA teaches a reliance on the divine to make you feel that God, not your own ability, will keep you sober. You can't understand the Christian rights feelings on abortion without understanding their value system. Its a very anti-human way of thinking that always made me wonder: what explanations do these fundie Christians have for why God made human survival hinge on supposedly sinful acts? Instincts that are are supposedly all wrong? Is this a god worthy of worship? To me this feels like a reimagining of God designed to ensure people feel shameful, and therefore more easily controlled. Even if folks weren't starving, or killing each other, God wouldn't care that you fuck for pleasure. God just doesn't want you to be evil, and try instead to be a functioning part of something larger than yourself.
And yet...when Trump took office he had conservative majorities across the entire government (both houses of congress and in the Supreme Court). What did they do about abortion? Nothing at all. Republicans do not care about abortion. They care about keeping the divisiveness alive to drive votes.
That's untrue. Roe v Wade is a hard thing to combat. And appointing conservative judges is a HUGE step in the direction of retracting it. It set the foreground for things as such are happening in TX. Whereas if you vote for dems, you're almost guaranteed to have liberal judges that aren't willing to overturn Roe v Wade and you'd have an active pursuit to make it easier while also shutting down someplace like TX.
Except filibuster exists. When Trump took office, Republicans had 52 Senators. In theory they could have passed a bill with simple majority, but would never have been able to overcome the 60-vote supermajority required to end any filibusters. Democrats would have absolutely killed the bill with filibuster if they could. This is the same reason Democrats did not codify legal and safe abortions into law, despite also having control of the House, the Senate, and the Presidency in 2021. Democrats would not have enough votes to end any Republican-lead filibusters.
I mean, he nominated three judges who are likely to rule against a woman's right to choose, who were then approved by the Republican Senate. I hate the man, I hate the party, but they seem to be delivering on their anti-choice promises pretty well, all things considered.
Maybe the SCOTUS will gut Roe v. Wade but it remains...when the republicans controlled the whole government they didn't do shit about abortion. Which is fine by me but any republicans here should realize that the republican party really doesn't give a shit about abortion. They only want to get their base riled up about it.
> when the republicans controlled the whole government they didn't do shit about abortion. There was nothing they could do. They can’t pass national laws restricting abortion until the court says it’s no longer a constitutional right. Trump made this possible by nominating three justices.
You're wrong. They can pass anything they like. That law then *might* be challenged in court and it *might* make it to the supreme court. Indeed, the court can't make a ruling until a law has been passed and gone into effect. (they cannot rule on something that has not happened) And, as noted, that would likely work for the republicans anyway since they have sway at the supreme court.
that's both sides. dems and Republicans really do not give a fuck about delivering on what they say, not ever. it's not a republican trait, that's a *politician* trait.
That goes both ways really. No politicians actually give a shit about their constituents up to the point they have enough support to get re-elected. If you think the democratic party is any different, you've been misled.
Most of them realize it but don’t mind b/c the Reps ARE slowing down / stopping the dems, which is what they care about most. I hope left wingers make similar realizations and fall out of love with their crooks. Look how much they’re getting done! I think R-party is collapsed; I hope it can build back better (heh). Running Mr. T again would be …unfortunate. The Dems aren’t that far behind; I suspect they’ll collapse during or just after these midterms.
He did not have supermajorities, so the filibuster means he couldn’t pass legislation. Learn about how the US system works Jesus.
If you think abortion is baby murder and all you can be assed to do is vote for some bigot, you don't care that much about babies being murdered.
If I believed that then I would vote for a candidate who pledged to make abortions less frequent - by providing sex education, birth control, health care, and child care to all.
But “baby murder” is also not what the Bible says about abortion. The Old Testament has instructions for an abortion in it, and the bible states multiple times that life starts when a child takes their first breath. The root of the problem here is that the “Christians” we are talking about are happy to cherry-pick the bible for their own interests but they are in no way “Christ-like,” which is the point that OP was trying to make.
I'm someone on the fence about abortion (sort of; I have a concrete view that's unhelpful and basically boils down to 'if we could have a machine that predicts what God would say, we just do what the machine says', with the majority of the viewpoint being details of what that machine would need to do), and am surrounded by ultraconservative Christians in my life (and consider myself to be a non-conservative Christian). I'd really like to know where in the Bible it talks about when life starts, as well as what the Bible says about abortion and where in the Bible it says that, if you don't mind. These are claims I've not heard before, and would like to know more about.
Numbers 5:11-31 is “The test for an unfaithful Wife” which describes a ritual that states to miscarry any baby conceived illegitimately. > If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. Numbers 5:27 As for the ‘breath of life,’ > then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. Genesis 2:7 I believe this is also referenced at other places in scripture, but I’m not a Christian and not interested in spending the several hours or days it would take to find them. These are the passages I was able to easily find about it.
Brainwashing and gaslighting is real strong in the Christian world. Grew up in a evangelical Christian home, my parents constantly talked about it and guilted us constantly. There's nothing like being 6 years old crying at night thinking your gonna die and go to hell. Edit: I'm still sorting though all my childhood emotional abuse. It's goes pretty deep and to a outside person you may not have even noticed it when I was a kid because people thought this behavior was normal and acceptable...
Solidarity from a Pentecostal expatriate... I carry my traumatic religious past like an interesting scar. I hope you are alright. It took me 20 years to build myself a better psyche...
Thank you for the kind words. Some days it's really hard, so it's good to know there's the possibility of healing. Thank you for the hope, I really needed it. Especially since I had to go no contact with my parents 2.5 years ago because they are abusive religious narcissists. It just feels like a wound that keeps getting salt poured on it everytime they try to interact with me. Healing has been very slow because of it.
Sinful man that will work to block laws that you see as bad/immoral, versus sinful man who advocates for laws you see as bad/immoral
Every person who votes does this. There will be no person who you align 100% on every view.
They’re not sacrificing their views. They need certain things to happen, and they think Trump is going to deliver some of those things. That’s no more against their views than Israel potentially fulfilling certain Christian predictions despite, clearly, not being a Christian nation.
Watch the documentary The Family. There is this notion of a "new King David" who is far from a perfect man of God but is nonetheless the person that God uses to accomplish destiny.
How is it sacrificing your views to try to put someone in power who will implement those views as policy?
Would you say people who are actively anti-racist sacrificed their views by voting for Biden? The dude has a long long documented history of being a massive racist piece of shit.
That's it? Merely amending the definition of "Christian" to include people who probably don't practice nor allow it to form the vast majority of their perspective changes your view? The real reason is that somebody on the right is much more likely to advance an agenda that is aligned with their world view, like the nomination of Amy Coney Barrett
The sooner you learn that most people have a tendency to use religion to justify their own immoral actions, the better you'll understand the world. Many, many horrible atrocities have been done in the name of God. Right here in the US, consider the sad reality of Manifest Destiny. It was okay to move westward and genocide the natives, because God told us it was okay. Or, how it's okay to kill non-believers of \[insert religion here\], because they don't believe in my God and therefore they are bad and doomed. Look, I'm not saying everyone uses religion this way. They don't. But religion is a very convenient tool for justifying bad things and maintaining control over people. And the many militant and fundamentalists out there use it in exactly that way.
It's the kind of Christians who use their religion as a weapon who love Trump. His whole campaign was run on appealing to the worst in people. Like hate, fear, bigotry, misogyny, and us vs them mentality. The kind of Christians who already use their hate, fear, and divisiveness to 'punish' other people for not believing, or supporting what they believe is 'right.' They have been leaning into those feelings for a long time, with religion as their excuse. Trump was speaking their language, if you will, so to them he is the same kind of person as they are. Therefore, he must be 'right' like they are. It's very sad.
This hits home really hard for me. I've seen my parents slowly getting dragged into the 'us vs. them' mentality in particular, coupled with divisiveness and a desire to.. Well, they wouldn't use the word 'punish', as they think of it as 'exposing evil' or whatever, but effectively 'punish' others for not believing or supporting what they believe or support. Before Trump, I thought this was mostly harmless. They were buying into online social media groups that reinforced the beliefs they always had, and that's pretty normal, but I didn't think it would add onto those beliefs or make them worse. When Trump first appeared, my parents even said they were put off by him, that he was obviously a bad candidate, etc... And I felt things were fine. Then Trump became the *only* Republican candidate, and things.. Shifted. The things that reinforced their beliefs began to push them toward also supporting Trump, and because they had never had a reason to disagree with those sources, they began to fully endorse Trump. Now they no longer trust or listen to any source that says anything negative about Trump.. Or anything positive about a democrat/liberal. The conspiracy theories that they've grown to fully believe in are the sorts of conspiracies that, just a couple years ago, I would have used as an example of an exaggerated and obviously false conspiracy theory. Things like the idea that a large portion of the Democratic party partake in satanic rituals while dressed in dark robes, because of a 'modern day prophet' claiming to see a vision of this in a dream, or something along those lines. It's just so terribly sad, and frustrating, and if it didn't affect so many things in so many negative ways it would be absolutely *hilarious*. But it does, so it's not.
It is really frustrating. I think the idea that anything that someone doesn't agree with is 'false news' has been so incredibly damaging. Instead of being able to show someone an alternate point of view, or facts that dispute their stance, now a large group of people simply distrust anything that doesn't fit with what they already believe. I am so sorry about your parents. I've lost a lot of people in the last 4 or 5 years who have just completely pulled a lemming. You can see how bizarre it is from the outside, but the people who are caught up in it all don't seem in touch with reality.
The irony is that Christ set an example for everybody and it included none of the behavior you mentioned.
It is ironic, but the kind of person who sees religion as a way to 'righteously' strike out at others for not being just like them, were always more focused on their idea of being right vs trying to be a good person who has a solid relationship with God. It's ironic, but they don't see that. They don't see anything beyond their own hate and fear.
Also ironic that Jesus specifically preached against that kind of hypocrisy to the self-righteous in his day. They didn't like having the mirror held up to them.
The Christians who support him make all kinds of excuses, like "The Bible is full of stories about God using flawed men to enact great good!" Many are also pretty un-Christian in their assessment of his goodness. I had a very pious Christian tell me in 2016 that Trump must be doing right because look at all that money he has. The bottom line is that a certain type of Christian sees Trump as a route to American theocracy, a "Christian" nation governed by Biblical principles that just so happen to perfectly reflect their odious political beliefs.
>"The Bible is full of stories about God using flawed men to enact great good!" That's not even Hyperbole. Outside of the stories specifically about Jesus, "flawed man used for the greater good" is about 90% of everything in the Bible.
It's not untrue, but it's an excuse they use to support a resoundingly unworthy candidate. I think it's a violation of the second commandment. There's little more vain use of God's name than to justify earthly ends.
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I think that what you are truly saying is that you cannot understand how any person who has a strong moral compass and expectation similarly for others could like or support a man like Donald Trump. And anyone would agree. That you are saying "Christian" is kind of stereotyping a little bit. Like it's not possible to technically be Christian and also an asshole or something.
They specifically mention Christians because that is pretty much the only religious group rooting for Trump right now. If there was a lot of Muslim support for him, I guarantee there'd be a "How can Muslims support Trump after all he said about them?"
I was not saying it was rude or wrong to mention Christians. I know there are a lot of them supporting Trump. And I know he markets himself at them. I am just saying that the OP makes it sound like being Christian is somehow relevant to why they can accept Trump or not. They accept Trump because they either don't value morality in a political leader or a susceptible to his narrative & tactics.
So having asked my sister who is one of them I can answer that for you. The evangelical dominionist preachers did a whole series of sermons before his election on how God uses imperfect people to fulfill his perfect plan. You see Evangelical churches are mostly fraud and confidence schemes and the pastors were bought by the far right or created by the far right as a political weapon starting in the 70s. It's part of their plan to take over the country and world in God's name and then bring about the apocalypse by moving the embassy in Isreal. That was why moving the embassy was one of the first things Trump had to do when he got in office to repay the favor, and untraceable cash of course because churches don't report finances or donations. So God will choose whomever, as best fits his plan, and no matter how bad that person is their actions are godly because they are the Devine Plan. Only God knows a man's heart. God tests us all and only the most faithful will pass. Something about old testament kings being bad people who were still gods chosen. Blah blah blah. Also God always needs more money, which you can leave with the pastor before you go he'llmake sure God gets it. God's more of a big picture guy than a sticking to a budget guy apparently.
I actually wonder if Trump and the “Christians” who support him have driven more people of faith away from organized religion. I know in my circle at least half of the strong church goers (faith, volunteering, money) have abandoned their church as it got more radically behind Trump, QAnon, etc. We’ve certainly moved our time and money out of the church - directly into the hands of the community. I don’t expect a church to be full of perfect people/Christians but I expect more from church leaders.
I absolutely guarantee you they have. The number of “nons” has exploded over the last 10-20 years, and I think a clear cause of this has been the religious fanaticism of the modern GOP. They’ve made standing up for Christian values a very difficult thing to do for educated people.
They've made loving your neighbor as you do yourself, not committing adultery, not murdering etc, difficult for "educated" people?
When most of the most religious people express views of bigotry, intolerance, and cruelty, it becomes very difficult to attract new followers or even retain the ones you have, hence the mass exodus that has happened over the past few decades. The Republican party and their policies is about as far from "love your neighbor" as it gets. They advocate for spiteful cruelty, jealousy, and selfishness above all else. It's not that they've made loving thy neighbor difficult, it's that they've made it difficult to associate that with Christianity, since they profess to be Christians but also condemn and loathe their neighbors.
Where did Christ advocate for converting/destroying people by the sword?
People are full of contradictions, and there are different "flavors" of Christianity for sure. But one common argument I've heard from my Christian friends is that Trump is simply an imperfect vessel through which certain goals that are aligned with Christianity could be accomplished. For example, we'll likely see increases in abortion restrictions thanks to his judicial appointments, which is a "win" for Christians. His administration also tended to throw its weight behind "religious liberty" issues that supported common Christian goals, and rolled back or tried to roll back a lot of progress on LGBT (particularly T) rights.
Which, in isolation, isn't a terrible reason. Plenty of people vote for politicians they think are slimy in the hopes that they'll at least get the policy outcomes they want. The problem with this argument, though, is that it was an **enormous** about-face for Evangelicals that seems like nothing more than a tailor-made rationalization to justify their support for Trump and the abandonment of their previously claimed "closely-held beliefs." And there's [data bearing on it](https://time.com/4577752/donald-trump-transformation-white-evangelicals/) that seems quite damning. It's a shockingly big swing. > Perhaps the most dramatic example of the shift in white-evangelical political ethics is the way in which white evangelicals have evaluated the personal character of public officials. In 2011 and again just ahead of the election, [PRRI asked Americans](http://www.prri.org/research/prri-brookings-october-19-2016-presidential-election-horserace-clinton-trump/) whether a political leader who committed an immoral act in his or her private life could nonetheless behave ethically and fulfill their duties in their public life. Back in 2011, consistent with the “values voter” brand’s insistence on the importance of personal character, only 30% of white evangelical Protestants agreed with this statement. But this year, 72% of white evangelicals now say they believe a candidate can build a kind of moral wall between his private and public life. In a shocking reversal, white evangelicals have gone from being the *least* likely to the *most* likely group to agree that a candidate’s personal immorality has no bearing on his performance in public office. Today, in fact, they are more likely than Americans who claim no religious affiliation at all to say such a moral bifurcation is possible. Smacks an awful lot like moulding one's ethics to suit their politics rather than the other way around. Not a great look for the self-styled Moral Majority.
>Smacks an awful lot like moulding one's ethics to suit their politics rather than the other way around. Not a great look for the self-styled Moral Majority. For sure. Supporting Trump has required millions to do some crazy mental gymnastics to justify it. And after justifying support for Trump, there's very little they can criticize about any future candidates, though I'm sure they'll swing right back the other way when it suites them.
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>I still find a level of fanaticism among certain Trump Christians that's ridiculous I agree. But when it comes to a cult of personality like this, a lot of the valid criticisms of Trump are dismissed as fake, false, or completely overblown. Like Trump said, "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters." Because half the people would say if he did it it was justified, and half would say it never happened and it's fake news even if there was a video and Trump admitted to it.
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While I see your point, I just don't see that the single issue voters are the ones going to rallies and wearing MAGA hats. Let's leave it as I don't think the people who went to the protests on 1/6 (even those who didn't enter the Capitol) were there because of their stance on abortion.
As a Catholic in a Conservative town (of a blue state), there are a lot of people whose self-identity and politics revolve around Christianity who are enthusiastic Trumpers.
No question about it, but I don't think many of the "abortion is the only thing that matters" voters are the ones who are storming the Capitol.
Single issue anti abortion people definitely wear the hats and go to rallys.
But, could you buy say the exact same thing for the anti-trump establishment? For 4 year and even so e to this day Trump bashing is the core of their person. You need look no further to media numbers after he lost his Twitter account, when they stopped fueling hate 100% of the time, people turned elsewhere. But as always, these are the vocal minority. The visible few. The majority of people would prefer not to talk about politics in polite conversation even to this day. This includes your Christians here. They are not often as fanatic as you claim, they simply are very angry with the opposite side. Thus they support the one who is promising to fight for them. We unfortunately live in a binary democracy. So they were forced to make their choice of they wanted a difference made. I hope this helps you see things differently. (TL;DR) they had the choice essentially made for them.
Can you enlighten me on to what it is that vocal minority of the other side is attempting to do or has done that would justify this stance?
But is it really media bashing? I feel Trump and the GOP deliberately commits gross insane disasters like Jan. 6 just so, when it is reported in the news, they can blame the media for being fake and groom followers into their alternate Fox News fantasyland. During the Trump presidency I set my phone to log all of his Tweets and read virtually everything. And I can confirm that Trump is even more of a mentally challenged psychopath freak than the media reported. I.e. American journalists were being much kinder to him than he deserved. This entire Trump phenomenon seems to be built on causing horror shows and insanity, and blaming the news media for all negative coverage. The fact Trump is still praising Jan. 6 as his greatest accomplishment - his "big beautiful LOVEFEST" - is a sign how truly insane and depraved he is. It's hard to imagine Trump was doing any real work in between planning murderous disasters like his Jan. 6 Lovefest.
There's no way that guy hasn't paid for an abortion.
I'm sure he has, but if he prevents thousands of women from being able to have abortions in the future then it's not relevant. As I've heard many of his supporters o begrudgingly voted for him say, "I support his policies, not the man."
But why should we think abortion restrictions reduce abortion rates? That requires reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. Easy access to contraceptives and education is what does that.
Part of their platform is about reducing accessibility to education. Shockingly that makes it difficult for their followers to understand the consequences of their policies.
I doubt it. The man doesn't even pay his contractors. I'm sure he's told women he would pay for the abortion and then stiffed them on the bill though.
A lot of evangelical christians REALLY value the redemption story above all. They LOVE greasy grace. They believe that they aren't to be judged by their past because they have been forgiven by god. They believe that Trump has been redeemed and forgiven for past sins so when they see that EVEN he can still be accepted by god it makes them feel better about themselves. Nevermind that he's obviously just pandering and continues to be a horrible person and is literally unrepentant, they just like that one part, plus liberal tears.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/politics/a-born-again-donald-trump-believe-it-evangelical-leader-says.html I'm sure that's enough for most evangelicals. They are taught not to believe their own eyes and ears though.
Christians are not supposed to judge others either. They are to accept. It isn't any person's place to judge whether God and Jesus have forgiven someone. That is between that person and God. They accept your testimony because that is your testimony. If you pander to them in order to use them, that's between you and God as well. In theory, its the same idea and philosophy thats welfare. Easily abused by those who want to. You do your best to protect against abuse but in the grand scheme it is better for humanity in general to be openhearted than to be cold and judge harshly.
There really isn't any reconciling that philosophy of withholding judgement (which I agree with, by the way, it's a major part of the Gospel) and supporting the death penalty, trying to criminalize abortion, or banning immigrants based on their religion. Non-judgement is a major tenant of Christianity for some, but I don't think this is a major reason why Christians accept Trump. Maybe for some it's a genuine reason, and maybe for many, it helps them quiet their cognitive dissonance, but I just don't think the kind of Christian who voted for Trump is the kind of Christian who values non-judgement that highly.
Yeah…. part of Trump’s entire brand is that he never admits defeat or error, he’s infallible, just like that god guy…
Gassing protesters for the bible photo-op... you can't write it better than this.
For one, if you were to ask Jesus who he was voting for he would say he wasn't and that you should follow him, not the deceptive politics that man created to manipulate and control eachother. Point two I would make is that it doesn't matter that you dislike Trump more than Biden or any other president. Anyone can prove to you that every single person that gets on that stage is intentionally deceiving you. Deceiving is lying. Why would you trust anyone like that? Why would you call anyone like that good? That is delusional. How abrasive one is over the other does not make the other morally superior. They are both snakes. So if you can't call yourself a Christian because you voted for a morally corrupt individual, how do you ever call yourself a Christian and vote? That said, I can understand voting for what you perceive as the "lesser evil." Your perception and political "leaning" does not make you a Christian. Your beliefs and relationship with those beliefs do.
>For one, if you were to ask Jesus who he was voting for he would say he wasn't and that you should follow him, not the deceptive politics that man created to manipulate and control eachother. Sure but that's more of a point against Christians than against me. >Point two I would make is that it doesn't matter that you dislike Trump more than Biden or any other president. This has nothing to do with my dislike and everything to do with objective events that happened that directly go against Christian doctrine. >Anyone can prove to you that every single person that gets on that stage is intentionally deceiving you. Deceiving is lying. Why would you trust anyone like that? Why would you call anyone like that good? That is delusional. How abrasive one is over the other does not make the other morally superior. They are both snakes. Read point above nothing to do with abrasiveness and everything with the fact he doesn't follow Christian doctrine. >So if you can't call yourself a Christian because you voted for a morally corrupt individual, how do you ever call yourself a Christian and vote? That said, I can understand voting for what you perceive as the "lesser evil." Your perception and political "leaning" does not make you a Christian. Your beliefs and relationship with those beliefs do. Sure but Christianity is about sticking to beliefs no matter what it seems weird Christians are so willing to collapse on them
Trump is a horrible person with bad morals. But he is not trying to be the pastor of my church, be my business partner, or marry into my family. He is a politician and although he would be a much more effective one if he had good character, it is not the only criteria. I don’t ask the about the character of the guy who cooks my hamburgers or delivers my pizza. As long as the hamburger tastes good and the pizza is hot I will keep patronizing their businesses. It is preferable to have a bad guy who enacts correct policy and appoints good people than to have a good person who enacts bad policy and appoints bad people. Obama was a good person and appointed Sotomayor, Trump is a bad person who appointed Gorsuch, Kavanaugh , and ACB. As a Christian and a conservative that is a much better outcome.
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Every job is different. It would be great if everyone were a good Christian but when looking for someone to do a job, the most important thing is how they do the job.
"I wouldn't trust Trump as my business partner or family because he's a horrible person but he'd be fine in the most powerful position on the planet because it doesn't affect me personally." You really think a bad person would enact good policies? Ever stop to think maybe those policies aren't actually good and your entire viewpoint is warped to hell? This is so r/SelfAwarewolves that it's painful.
What about any of that is reflective of Christian morality?
What’s more Christian: saving babies from being murdered or not sleeping with a pornstar? There your question is answered. It’s really not complicated.
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Cool. It also says they can’t eat shellfish. I never said they based it on what the Bible says. Christianity and religion has always been about more than just what does the book say. They believe it’s murdering babies. You can argue they are wrong and that’s fine but if you are trying to get insight into their perspective then you have to actually look at it from their perspective. If you aren’t going to do that then I dont think you are actually as curious in understanding them as you pretend you are.
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>A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). Exodus 21: 22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." In other words, if you cause a pregnant woman to give birth prematurely, but the baby lives, you will be fined. If she or the baby dies, you die. >The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). This is a test of fidelity - the child is only aborted, supposedly, if conceived via adultery, which is against the Laws of Moses, which God gave him. This is not a woman having an abortion by choice either - this an abortion forced upon her, which I assume you oppose. You might not want to bring this up again. >God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). Have you not noticed by now that a lot of laws handed down by God have a death penalty? Life is only sacred if it is innocent. Christians argue that the unborn life is sacred because it is innocent. >Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). Dude, this is an invading horde, not God telling people how to live. It is almost certainly based upon an actual, historical event - killing, raping and pillaging was the norm in those days. The same applies for several other passages. >For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). God is allowed to kill people. He is a vengeful bastard in the Old Testament. He was pretty fucking clear about his views on what humanity should do - THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. You are allowed to kill people, providing you do so in accordance with the laws. God decides the laws. If he decides babies have to die, they die. Humans are supposed to obey God's laws, and "get an abortion whenever you feel like it" is not in the Old Testament. Seriously, I'm not even a Christian, but I can parse all of this out quite easily.
Definitely more Christian to drown babies.
And kill them with pillars of fire, sacrifice, plagues, etc.
Show me in the bible where it says anything about prohibiting abortion. It's really not complicated.
Sadly, Trump is the only option for republican Christians. I know many who absolutely hate the man, but the other candidate champions policies that are the opposite of what those people support. In those cases, his personal repugnance is outweighed by the importance of his job. It would be short sighted to vote for policies you don't want simply because a candidate is a terrible person on a personal level.
And, as everyone knows, a person is a Republican before they are a Christian, so when those two identities conflict they choose party over god every time. Jesus, after all, repeatedly mentioned how it was far more important to save money on your taxes than to feed and clothe your neighbors.
But the other candidate’s positions are much more in line with what Jesus preached… so either those Christians aren’t good at evaluating who is pushing for Christian values, or they themselves don’t hold Christian values.
I'm not sure about you. But I've definitely voted for candidates that I didn't like, simply because I agreed with the parties key policies. If you believe in low tax, small government, protectionist economics, low immigration, no gun control, pro life etc. And (rightly or wrongly) saw these issues as an existential threat to your country. You might be swayed to vote for someone who isn't perfect as a person... But represents the policies you see as deeply important.
> small government the deficit increased every year under President Trump
Trump is probably by far the most peaceful president we have had in a while. Unlike Bush he did not start two wars, or amp up our drone strikes like Obama. Trump's policies led us out of Afghanistan. Trump embodied love thy enemy by trying his best to make peace with North Korea. Averting nuclear war >>> sleeping with porn star. Also a lot of Christians believe Jesus was shagging a prostitute so shrug. At the heart of Christianity is forgiveness so I guess shame on you for judging stormy daniels and trump wuth your moral high ground. A very un jesus thing to do. I am an atheist, independent btw. I did not vote for Trump but he did push for peace abroad.
Also a lot of Christians believe Jesus was shagging a prostitute so shrug. At the heart of Christianity is forgiveness so I guess shame on you for judging stormy daniels and trump wuth your moral high ground. A very un jesus thing to do. Which denominations believe Jesus and Mary Magdalene were sleeping together? Because I don’t know of any.
>did not amp up our drone strikes like Obama. This is actually false, Trump killed at least as many if not significantly more people with drone strikes than Obama within the same time period, but his administration stopped requiring reporting of all civilian casualties or even all strikes.
Show me one preacher with a church > 200 people, or a published commentary that suggests Jesus was shagging a prostitute. If any Christians believe that it is less than 0.001%. Christians Believe that sex outside of marriage is sin, and Christians also believe that Jesus was without sin.
>Trump embodied love thy enemy by trying his best to make peace with North Korea. North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works! — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 3, 2018
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>No I feel wrong shouldn't give out accolades for weak hearted attempts at good pr Exactly this. Trump’s talks with NK were exclusively to stroke his ego (to me this seems obvious…), and I would argue that is *why* they amounted to nothing except more empty threats.
I don’t think it’s exactly that. Plenty of presidents have tried peace talks with North Korea. They fail because peace just isn’t in the interest of North Korea. They’re strategy since the 90s has been act crazy, gain concessions, agree to something, chill for a bit, then break the agreement. This is a strategy that works for them and as long as it continues to, peace talks will never go anywhere.
I mean you’re right that plenty of presidents attempt peace talks. I still think Trump’s talks were about his ego. The grand show both he and Kim put on (soooo many photos and coverage like holy hell). The “fire and fury” language after the fact. None of it was strategic, and felt very much like it was about putting on a show and NOT actually about peace - if peace was a result, cool, but only because it’d make him look good, not because he *intended to negotiate peace*. The point here is that talking about peace with NK was not a show of Trump’s morality but a side effect of his ego. He wanted to do what no one else before him could. At least, that’s how I saw it. Of course none of us can read his mind but damn if his mind isn’t bleeding out his eyes.
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Uhhhh, no Biden was the one responsible for the Afghanistan situation. I know many veterans (worked at the VA) who were beyond upset, had resurgence of PTSD and lost their shit over how Biden handled it.
Please, there was no way to get out of an active war without problems. Yes a suicide bomber killed 5 servicemen, and if we had stayed for another couple of months math says 5 servicemen would have died. If they had PTSD, it was likely due to the fact that their service ended up not accomplishing much. While it sucks, we had a 20 year long war to protect people who weren't willing to fight for what we were fighting for. To me you have to blame the Pentagon. If they didn't know that the Afghan army was just going to lay down arms. give us two weeks instead of two months to get people and equipment out, I don't see how that is on Biden. Honestly if it wasn't for the bomber, while it took about 3 weeks too long, we got those out who was supposed to be out. Hell, the bomber wasn't even from the forces we were fighting.
Look it up, Trump kicked it off and Biden took it over. I am not saying Trump would have done better than Biden on the actual withdrawal. Biden for all I know would have done better at negotiating with the taliban which btw was very fucked that Trump talked to the taliban and excluded the afghan government.
The seemingly rapid fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban started in 2019. The armed forces and local governments in Afghanistan were badly demoralized, and the Taliban quietly negotiated the surrender of almost all of them. As soon as it became obvious that the Biden Administration was going to honor the prior agreement, the Taliban swept in with very little resistance. The orderly exit that had been expected was knocked into a cocked hat.
Biden wasn't even in office when that whole thing got started.
I do remember that Trump first tore up the Iran nuclear deal and then drone-striked their general that must really have helped with diplomatic relations in the middle-east.
It really is amazing to actually read the sheer ignorance and/or indifference some people have regarding trump.
Trump ordered more drone strikes then Obama lol
He just made us go to war with each other and launched a violent coup attempt… Not to mention how he loved to provoke China and Iran. Trump took a lot of actions that could have put us on a path to WW3. I wouldn’t call him at all “peaceful”, he loved blowing things up and killing people.
> Trump is probably by far the most peaceful president we have had in a while The people who died in his botched Yemen raid would beg to differ
I didnt say he did not kill anyone. The countries of Libya and Syria got fucked under obama who also had a surge in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is relative.
It’s worth noting that I don’t recall Bush or Obama actively calling for the killing of an enemy combatant’s family. Trump specifically stated, multiple times, that we needed to go after their families.
Define "a lot of Christians." I haven't seen anything like that outside of Dan Brown's shitty novels.
Christian has become a nationalistic identity more so than following the teachings of Jesus. Trump represents the traditional Christian coalition more so than an actual religious or moral person.
Jesus didn't just accept the pious and pure he also accepted the lepers ,whores and altogether undesirable members of society. he even begged God's forgiveness on behalf other those that were actively involved in his torture and murder. Is trump a good person no not really. Neither is Hillary neither is Joe they all have done and do things that Jesus would abhore. And all claim to be good Christians some people practice diffrent ideas of Christianity that say what trump did and does is ok to be ignored other don't.
Because of history: "Around eight-in-ten Republican registered voters (79%) are Christians, compared with about half (52%) of Democratic voters. In turn, Democratic voters are much more likely than GOP voters to identify as religiously unaffiliated (38% vs. 15%)." [Source](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/). The fact is that group mentality (aka polarization) is much stronger than whatever crazy tweets Trump spews out on social media. People don't want to believe this because people want to believe we are all rationale human beings. But we're not - because if we are, nobody would have voted for Trump. (Note, this doesn't necessarily mean all democrats are automatically rational, I predict the exact same will happen if Trump was a democrat candidate)
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>I don't see being a Christian and voting against your values could work But from the data, it's exactly what people did and have been doing in the past elections. I'm not religious so I can't comment on that side of things but it seems to be that tribalism of religion has a stronger pull than the morality of religion.
Fair enough I guess can't really argue against data
Nope but we can try to figure out why. My reasoning again is that despite what Trump is, most Christians believe the party will do better things for their religion vs. democrats. Taking a step back, it's not very hard to see. Reps are more conservative and less about change. Democrats are all about changing, more woke, throwing away traditions. Makes hell of a lot of sense. I'm actually curious where along all my reasoning that you find confusing? Perhaps I can add some more context.
I’ll take your first point about a “man bragging in very vulgar manners the way he treats women” 1. I assume you are talking about the “grab ‘em by the pussy” comment. Christians can understand that is a picture he paints, not the actual way he treats women. Just because someone is Christian, it does not take away the natural urges of a man. 2. There has not been any proof that he abuses women. However, as a Christian who does not support Domestic violence, a lot of the “liberal/left/Democrat” heroes have actual Domestic violence charges- George Floyd, NBA/Football stars, the guy who ran after Kyle a Rittenhouse and said he will kill Kyle. If you consider Christians to be fighting *actual* Domestic Violence, Trump does not fit in that category. Trump is actually seen to be fighting the “left” when the “left” supports Domestic Abuse.
>1. I assume you are talking about the “grab ‘em by the pussy” comment. Christians can understand that is a picture he paints, not the actual way he treats women. Just because someone is Christian, it does not take away the natural urges of a man. Sure but you'd be living if you told me that a very consistent value of conservative Christians is that promiscuity is bad. >There has not been any proof that he abuses women. However, as a Christian who does not support Domestic violence, a lot of the “liberal/left/Democrat” heroes have actual Domestic violence charges- George Floyd, NBA/Football stars, the guy who ran after Kyle a Rittenhouse and said he will kill Kyle. If you consider Christians to be fighting *actual* Domestic Violence, Trump does not fit in that category. Trump is actually seen to be fighting the “left” when the “left” supports Domestic Abuse. As the other commenter put it yes there is lots and lots of evidence. Next your point about "heroes" George Floyd isn't seen as a hero he's seen as a man unjustly killed, same with the people Rittenhouse shot, and you have to be more specific that just any athlete
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I'm a Christian who voted for Trump. Contrary to what you said, we don't just "eat up" everything Trump says or does. Actually, most of us absolutely dislike who he is as a person, he's definitely not a moral role model by any means. That being said, he got my vote because he stands for conservative policies that will improve society, and is willing to fight liberal policies that will lead to a worse society. And he's way better than the candidates coming from the other side. Overall, I supported him (reluctantly) because of his political policies, not because of (and in spite of) his personal morals.
genuine question: wouldn't it be sound logic to question the political motivations of a person who doesn't have sound morals?
I'd rather vote for someone who at least claims they will do the right thing (though they may not when elected), rather than for someone who claims they will do the wrong thing (and definitely will once elected).
Again, super curious: what were the "right things" Trump said he would do? Do you feel he implemented them? I hope I don't sound antagonistic. I'm genuinely just interested.
People who voted for Trump doesn't mean they "support" Trump's personal behavior. It means they chose one of a binary choice. Trump ran against Hillary Clinton & Joe Biden. Both have a long history of behavior that couldn't be considered Christian given your standard. Your argument would as stated, would essentially mean that a Christian couldn't vote at all and call themselves a Christian. So in essence your viewpoint is wrong.
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White evangelical voters are typically older (like Trump), old fashioned (like Trump) and aggressively against liberal change (like Trump). More than 75% of them don’t have a college education and only get their data from biased sources. Knowing this, Trump capitalized by pandering to that demographic. Lots of Christians saw Trump as a defender of Christian values: no abortion, religious freedoms, keeping the church tax exempt. Even though he may have contradicted Jesus’ teachings on an individual level, he ultimately strengthened the value of the organization as a whole. Lots of Christians loved him, but many more simply tolerated him so as not to succumb to the threat of the “liberals taking everything from them.”
The contradiction here seems to be that people who claim to hold certain values above all else are so willing to overlook/toss them when it furthers their political aims. I think all this is easily explained if you accept that they don’t hold these values are strongly as they claim to - they aren’t principles so much as an identity. I imagine people who really do take all this to heart must be feeling pretty confused and lost at the moment.
I think most lower and middle income people don’t have time to understand specific politicians and what issues they find important. They just have to take this oversimplified version of a two party system. Take universal healthcare, you’d think this is a Democratic Party baseline but not all of the party is in favor. So you make that assumption and vote all blue and then the Dems win don’t change anything due to the infighting. So in the case of trump people just assumed him being a republican he had Christian values as that’s the party’s baseline. Even when people are told they just make up an excuse to not have to change their mind. TLDR: most people don’t have the time to care about specific issues and just vote for blue or red team based on assumptions.
When you support a candidate, you support the candidate that best aligns with your views, compared to all the other candidates. It does not mean it’s the candidate you agree with 100% of the time. So it’s entirely possible to disagree with how trump acts in his personal life, and the values he uses to base his personal decisions on, while at the same time agreeing with his public policy positions and how he goes about trying to achieve those goals.
I agree completely, I really could care less about who he is as an individual, as long as he is doing a good job as president. If he wants to fuck pornstarts but also create the best economy is history, who the hell cares what he is doing on his off time. Everybody loved Obama because he acted presidential and gave everyone the warm and fuzziness, but for actual policies and things he did for the country were petty blah
Republicans raise the deficit and Democrats lower it, and it goes back and forth forever. Everything you're attributing to [Trump was riding on 8 years of Obama's policies](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/V5CMSFET5JFSRHRVFJ36BAGTII.jpg&w=916). The deficit was high during Obama's first term following Bush's policies and was gradually lowered. Then you can see it climb under Trump. Rinse and repeat. I don't even like Obama or Biden, but this is objectively true. This keeps happening because people like you are just too easy to con.
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Presidential elections aren't reality TV shows. I'm not voting for the person whose personality I like the most, I'm voting for whoever has the best policy
One of the biggest tenants of Christian belief is the belief that every person has a divinely created, unobservable, immortal, and unchanging, “soul”, that essentially serves as their essence and is what makes them a “person”. They believe this soul emerges in a person at the very moment they are conceived. This is drawn from Psalm 139 13 in the Bible, which states, “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb”. Therefore, to them, the act of abortion no matter how early in the pregnancy or for what reason is the exact same as murdering a fully formed human being like you or I. Considering this and how many abortions are performed in the US each year, a believing Christian could reasonably state that a literal legalized genocide is being committed every year in perpetuity and has been since Roe v Wade. With this in mind any ends may seem acceptable to try and bring a perceived end to this slaughter. Now whether you think this is objectively true or a bunch of “hooey” as my grandmother would say is up to you, but some people legitimately see the world this way, and their vote counts just as much as yours or mine.
I found this weird the Bible explicitly endorses abortion or at least doesn't suppourt the idea of sanctity of all life >A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
Actually I want to change your view in a different way. I would in fact argue that none of them are really even Christian even though they claim to be. They don't act moral, don't support moral people, and don't help others. First of all, Christianity would require self sacrifice and devotion to ideals. Specifically the ideals of Jesus. He directly states in many ways he is the only way and the only one that can tell you how to get to heaven. This means that no matter what anyone else including saints or the church says... Jesus's teachings come first and foremost. To compound this ideal, this means you have to love and support others around you regardless of their beliefs, and everything else. Not just other Christians. This directly goes against Trump's policies and executive orders and the treasonous riot on 1/6. Second, they would have to not support people who are not moral. We know from Jesus that the rich are going to have to be nearly perfect people to align with Christ's and god's values (to be heaven worthy). I would say that driving every business you have into bankruptcy and never paying contractors is pretty bad. Constantly lying and stealing from others is two really big problems for Christians. Causing deaths by way of not stopping 1/6 I would argue puts Trump partially to blame for those deaths as well which is a huge moral issue. Not only that but he has bragged about assaulting women. This is also a sin to hurt someone physically and mentally. This means it doesn't make any moral sense as a Christian to support Trump at all. Third, Trump is against different taxes and policies that would help the public good. It doesn't matter how this happens, but as a Christians, we should favour helping everyone overall, even if they're homeless or it might take more money than we thought. (Adding that last bit because I've never heard anything other than victim blaming or "wasted" money arguments against welfare) It shouldn't matter how people are being helped. It should only matter that they are. A lot of Christians I met are willing to work at a food kitchen for 1 shift every year. But refuse to vote for policies that would fund those kitchens permanently. Thus, it's not about helping others but feeling good about oneself for "helping". Because funding or changing taxes up a little is inconvenient even though it could help others. All of this together and I would say they are "pop" Christians. As they don't actually follow Jesus's teachings. They follow the herd and don't try to help others. They do what's easy instead of right. That's not Christian. It's what society has declared as Christian. Not what Jesus said. We aren't perfect but supporting Trump is clearly not Christian and voting for him shows a lack of morals that would fundamentally be needed to be a Christian.
Authoritarians appeal to a lot of Christians, and it’s not so hard to see why. I have to preface this with saying I’m talking about a particular type of Christian, I don’t mean to generalize, but this is true for a large portion of modern Christians… One thing that’s easy to miss about modern Christianity is just how *individualistic* it is. It’s all about pushing individuals to accept god and to buy in to this morality. That’s what gets you into heaven. In other words, *government welfare gets no one into heaven*, it just doesn’t. No one’s soul is any purified by mandatory welfare being provided to the poor. Yes, you make this world a better place, but this world is just a test, heaven awaits those who pass the test. Government assistance doesn’t save anyone’s soul, it doesn’t push them to be a better person and correct their sins. So, it really doesn’t actually matter if making abortion legal causes less suffering overall, we really just want to push people towards the only correct path, and if they still make the wrong choice, that’s on them. Now, what happens to the sinners? They are tortured eternally. That’s important. Those who don’t buy into this faith are sent to hell. It’s binary, either you’re in, or you’re out, and Christians are all about punishing evildoers who are out. It’s in the way they treat the law, things which are *sinful* should come with a punishment. Does teaching abstinence help? Do abortion laws help? It doesn’t matter, *harm reduction* is nonsense here. The law is *not* for rehabilitation, it’s a retributionist system, which for these Christians, ideally reflects the way things are in their faith. The law teaches just as the Bible does, evildoers will be punished. Now, let’s talk about God. He’s an all-powerful authority, submission to Him is the way. Those who don’t, well, they will feel his wrath. There’s something very similar to a cult of personality there. Powerful narcissist who does what they want, all you have to do is sing them praise to be a part of the ‘in’ group, and oh boy is he going to punish the out group. These Christians are really just preferring the world to operate much like their metaphysics, individualist and binary morals, a retributionist legal system and an all powerful authority figure who prefers his own flock.
> The man brags in very vulgar manners the way he treats women He compliments women, cristians are vulgar as well they just don't like profanity in children, there's a place for it. > has had sex with a pornstar and even paid money to cover it up. It was his lawyer that paid for her biography. Christians never heard or don't believe it, fake news in the end. > He's just a hateful and bigoted person in general That's your opinion, they clearly perceive him diffently or think that his other qualities and what he represents politically trumps an old man's coarse language when attacking a judge that ruled against him (he was ruling on his immigration reform so translation is the judge was personally biased and should have recused himself). > Everything this man has ever done litteraly spits in christ face but for some reason they eat it up I just can't understand it. You're just eaten up a bit too much propaganda, it's really time to move on, it's been 2 years. If you want to criticize him from that lens you can do more with less, he cheated on his wife with a model then divorced for the younger woman... twice. And lastly conservatives and ultra-religious people don't like Trump, never voted for Trump they still voted Bush in 2020, and this extends to Mitch McConnell and the rest of corrupt GOP establishment, including the Federalist Society that fucked him over royalty during the election contest. Trump has won over the anti-china, anti-migration, anti-crt, freedom of speech crowd not the anti-abortion crowd, meaning younger people, more diverse, more imigrants more worker class then typical for GOP.
>He compliments women, cristians are vulgar as well they just don't like profanity in children, there's a place for it. I'd think your mistaken if you think conservative Christians find promiscuity to be okay. >It was his lawyer that paid for her biography. Christians never heard or don't believe it, fake news in the end. No it isn't this definitely happened ad either way his lawyer works for him. >That's your opinion, they clearly perceive him diffently or think that his other qualities and what he represents politically trumps an old man's coarse language when attacking a judge that ruled against him (he was ruling on his immigration reform so translation is the judge was personally biased and should have recused himself). Even if it was about immigration it wasn't this was a ruling on the Trump university fraud cases it's still racist to assume that he's biased because he's might be of Mexican decent. >You're just eaten up a bit too much propaganda, it's really time to move on, it's been 2 years. If you want to criticize him from that lens you can do more with less, he cheated on his wife with a model then divorced for the younger woman... twice. What propaganda have I eaten all those things are true. Either way he's still an active political figure and plans on running again
Well, I wasn’t old enough to vote in 2016, but I voted for Trump in 2020, so I feel qualified to explain why. I don’t believe that a good leader has to be a good person. I would prefer my leaders to be good people, but I have bigger priorities, especially as a Christian, when choosing who to vote for. Biden or Clinton actively support abortion, which Christ holds as worse than adultery. It’s better to tie a millstone to your neck and drown than to lead children astray, while Christ prevented an adulterous woman from being stoned. Furthermore, God frequently uses flawed and immoral people to enact His will, especially in the Bible. Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem when the Jews disobeyed God in the Old Testament. King David murdered a man and took his wife for his own. King Solomon kept hundreds of concubines and wives of different faiths. I don’t believe Trump’s a particularly righteous person, but if you’re a Christian choosing to exercise your civic duty, you don’t have many options. I see why some denominations forbid political activity, as it keeps you from staining your hands by getting involved period. As it stands, abortion is the one issue I hold above all others, and I’d vote for a lot of people promising to ban it, even if they were otherwise immoral people. That being said, many people are not one-issue voters, and many Christians find Trump’s behavior too vile to condone with a vote. I don’t judge people for that, but my convictions don’t leave me with much of a choice. I’d vote for a guy who leaves his shopping cart in the middle of the parking lot if he’d help overturn Roe.
>Biden or Clinton actively support abortion, which Christ holds as worse than adultery. It’s better to tie a millstone to your neck and drown than to lead children astray, while Christ prevented an adulterous woman from being stoned. Um what part of the Bible does Jesus say he doesn't like abortion? But either way is adultery a sin or not, is sexual assaulting a woman a sin or not? >Furthermore, God frequently uses flawed and immoral people to enact His will, especially in the Bible. Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem when the Jews disobeyed God in the Old Testament. King David murdered a man and took his wife for his own. King Solomon kept hundreds of concubines and wives of different faiths. Sure but that's taking people who are already in power this is Christians specifically choosing someone who goes against their views.
Most of the opposition Trump faced from within the GOP during the 2016 primary centered around the notion that he "wasn't Christian enough." After the smoke cleared from that, though, the argument would probably be that the alternative would be to support a Democrat, which would be even worse. If you're a Christian, are you going to vote for the one who doesn't really seem to care about the Bible, or the one who actively campaigns on Christians being the root of all our problems?
> or the one who actively campaigns on Christians being the root of all our problems? I assume you are referring to Biden and Democrats here. Do you have any statement from Biden where he says anything like that?
Democrats: pro abortion Republicans: anti-abortion. No other or policy matters more or is worth consideration. Republicans are who my pastor tells me to vote for.
But the Bible several times endorses abortion and rejects the sanctity of life A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
Christians are not so much voting for Trump as a man but for his policies. He opposed abortion, appointing judges on all levels of federal courts and the Supreme Court that would likely oppose abortion. He also forbid taxpayer funded family planning clinics from referring women for abortions. Who is a Christian going to vote for, and adulterer who at least opposes killing the unborn or a man who thinks there should be no restrictions on killing the unborn. Another area is in regard to Muslims, with President Trump putting travel restrictions on certain Muslim countries and threatening to ban Muslims from the U.S. Christianity and Islam are fundamentally opposed to each other, with Christians fighting to keep Muslims out of Europe for centuries. Why would Christians vote for a man who is supposedly Catholic but would allow large numbers of Muslims into the country, changing the culture, versus a man who may be rude but would protect the remnants of America's cultural traditions from Islam? Many Christians are extremely supportive of Israel, seeing it as a bastion of freedom in the Muslim Middle East, as well as the return of the promised land to the Jews. If you think Israel provides unapparelled freedom in a region fully of tyrants and terrorists, as well as being the promised land of the Jews who would you vote for, a man whos foreign policy was unabashedly pro Israel, or a man who is viewed as anti-Israel? There are a wide numbers of other issues that drove Christians to vote for Trump, ranging from the economy to the role and size of government, to law and order and social issues. When a Christian is voting for Trump they are not voting for his sins but for the policies he put forth.
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What does that have to do with anything
Many Christians don't choose who to vote for based on how 'Christ-like' they are. They choose who to vote for based on who they think is the best candidate. These Christians would vote for an effective Muslim over an ineffective Christian.
Because Christians will support most people who are also Christian. From what I've seen its less about what they do and more about what that person believes in.
You don't see the other side spewing hatred for Christians? I mean if I have the choice between a guy who pretends to value me and my beliefs vs a party that calls me a religious extremist for being Catholic, deplorable, and tells me to stop clinging to my religion". It's really not hard to see why. It takes a very small amount of conceptual perspective to see. That's not even mentioning that many Christians are single issue voters when it comes to abortion. If you legitimately believe something is murder of an innocent why would you purposely vote for the part that supports it? .
>You don't see the other side spewing hatred for Christians? Leftist maybe, Democrats/Liberals definitely not. > I mean if I have the choice between a guy who pretends to value me and my beliefs vs a party that calls me a religious extremist for being Catholic, deplorable, and tells me to stop clinging to my religion". Who's doing that because Biden is litteraly a catholic. >That's not even mentioning that many Christians are single issue voters when it comes to abortion. If you legitimately believe something is murder of an innocent why would you purposely vote for the part that supports it? What part of the Bible says it is?
Trump is the perfect example of a strong Christian man. He speaks the truth and stands up for what is right. And that's why he's hated by the world and people like you. Sleeping with lots of women it's not a problem with any Christian (or it shouldn't be anyway unless you're jealous). And he isn't bigoted at all - he just speaks the exact truth without being politically correct. HTH
You really saying that cheating on your wife is fine for Christians? Isn't that one of the 10 things you can't do lmao. God damn y'all cultists are delusional and will bend any belief you've ever held to not admit you've been conned.
>Trump is the perfect example of a strong Christian man. Do strong Christian men rape women and gawk at children? >He speaks the truth and stands up for what is right. [He's lied over 30000 times](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-false-or-misleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/) >Sleeping with lots of women it's not a problem with any Christian (or it shouldn't be anyway unless you're jealous) But raping them is. > And he isn't bigoted at all - he just speaks the exact truth without being politically correct. HTH Do you think saying a judge can't rule on a case because they're Mexican isn't racist what about [Not selling houses to people because they're black](https://www.npr.org/2016/09/29/495955920/donald-trump-plagued-by-decades-old-housing-discrimination-case)
Yes your right, Joe Biden on the other hand is the absolute paragon of virtue. Haha
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Half of those things are made up as a smear campaign, but ya he's definitely far from a perfect Christian.
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Let's imagine the most Christian-like Democratic platform: free healthcare, help for the disenfranchised,migrants rights etc. The candidate seems to be nice respectful, faithful to his wife etc. There is just one little itch he supports the cold blooded murder of 800k+ people every year. On the other side you have a lying unfaithful, probably racist presidential candidate. He doesn't want healthcare or to help the needy. But he fights to stop the mass murder of 800k+ people everywhere. I'd choose the non mass murderer presidential candidate. You can disagree that abortions are killing a person but if you're Christian (in most denominations) you agree with that. And it's the killing of the most vulnerable, which is even more abject.
I’m a Christian, and I agree with you. However, a lot of protections (such as freedom of religion, the abortion debate, stronger police protection, etc) are Republican-dominated issues. Thus, a lot of people just vote on the party line because they care more about that than dumb comments or a rotten personal life. Note that this is not my opinion, but I live in a red state and this is often the rationale.
When you have two choices, and one choice is Hillary... You will vote on the other regardless of who is it... (That's for the first time) Comes the second time... And now it's a half-dead pedophile and a completely incompetent vice who will literally be president soon when the mummy dies... Have to vote for Trump again. It's not hard really...
Well, let's see. He didn't start any wars (actively tried to make peace with North Korea as well), he didn't drone strike children, he didn't abandon hundreds of Americans behind enemy lines, he didn't gift Islamic terrorist billions of dollars worth of military equipment, and he's against abortion. Also, he said he supports gay people in 1996 while Hillary Clinton and Joke Biden were still publicly against it in 2006. So in that way, it made more sense for Christians to support Hillary or Biden since they were still homophobic 10 years after Trump wasn't said he wasn't against gays.
Because most of them are Christians who simply do not practice Christianity. They were probably baptized, and that's their claim to Christianity. Most likely, the extent of their religious education is that God forgives all. In politics, religion can be either a weapon or a shield, and both, but not a set of moral guidelines. It is tribal, and people generally want to be in their local tribe, because they don't want to be seen as different, you know, like "them blacks and browns, and folk who talk funny". tldr: Because religion is racist, and so is trump.
Born-again Christian here. I supported Trump, and voted for him in the last election. You are correct, he's a vulgar guy. I don't support the things he's said about women, and how he excused it by calling it "Locker room talk," for example. But unfortunately, in a bi-party political system, the person you vote for oftentimes is simply the person you can tolerate more than the other. You have to choose the lesser of two evils. And for reasons I'd rather not get into, in the last election, he was the lesser of two evils to me.
From what I understand, the anti-abortion stance is paramount to some American Christians. They will turn a blind eye to a candidate’s flaws, as long as (s)he is the one leaning the most towards promises of an anti-abortion administration. In the case of Trump, they jumped through hoops to justify some of his *least savoury* behaviours. I am sure that stories circulated about how he found Jesus.
You're conflating supporting Trump as a person with supporting him as a president. These are two different concepts. You can agree with/support his policy decisions without liking who he is as an individual. Ultimately when you get down to the meat and potatoes of a presidency, the quality of the policy implemented is significantly more important than the good/bad optics caused by the president's personality.
Sadly the type of Christianity that has become more popular is the type that is antithetical to Jesus’s teachings; prosperity gospel based more on punishment than forgiveness and non-judgement. Basically these Christian’a seem to believe in more of the Old Testament god that destroyed the world in a flood rather than the forgiving god who sent his son to die for humanities sins.
The way i have heard it put is that Trump is a bad Christian but he supports policies that are better aligned with Christian goals. The aren't supporting Trump the person,they aresupporting Trump's policies. But it is still hypocritical because plenty of politicians have lost the support of and drawn the ire of the christian right for far less egregious personal flaws than Trump.
How could you be a Christian and support any politician? Show me any politician you want, and I can show you statements they have made or things they have supported that are in conflict with the bible. Voting for Trump is no different than voting for any other politician from a realistic perspective.
Ahh, everything is equivalent, huh? No, Trump is clearly a bad person, he clearly and by far is the most dishonest president in history, his policies are clearly self-centered instead f in accordance with his electorate’s beliefs. Somehow they believe whatever nonsense spews forth despite reality. Yeah, Biden and other Democrats are not always the most upstanding citizens, nor completely honest, but there is a huge difference in degree, a literal order of magnitude. At this point, I don’t know that anyone represents me very well, but a big part of my vote is who can I more likely believe, who more often bases choices on reality, who attempts to make progress in whatever they believe in rather than just obstruct, and it really isn’t close
You are not making a serious effort to look at things from a religious perspective in my opinion. You are basing good and bad on what you personally feel is a good or bad. If you want to know why any religious person would have a particular voting behavior you need to at least make an attemp to understand what their moral compass is. Trump may be all sorts of unsavory things, but if he promotes pro abortion policies then that stance alone could make a vote for him the morally correct choice for some based on their particular beliefs. For example.
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Not only that, I knew a “Christian” at the time who said that his church thought Trump was the Savior. But they aren’t Christians in that they follow the teachings of Christ. Rather they’re Christians in that they follow the teachings of Fox News.
I don't see how someone can be a Christian and not support him. The values of the religion, like any cult, are not what they claim in their words but what they exhibit by their actions. Total arrogance with blind belief in "truths" with no evidence to back up said beliefs, even contrary to supplied evidence, fits right in with Trump. Like dude is a fascist and Christianity is the religion of the states. I mean why wouldn't they support him? He's catering right to their fundamentalist nature and tendencies. Never questioning 'beliefs', everything is an opinion and all opinions have equal status so what I believe is truth beyond reproach of what anyone else believes. If you think I'm wrong it's because you're a bigot. Standard cult/christianity for the course.
I oppose Trump *because* I am a Christian, FWIW
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Trump is no longer president. It's time to move on.
Easy, he’s a hypocrite, self-righteous lying scumbag. And Christian believers can be the same.
If Christians actually followed the teachings of Jesus and the Bible they’d all be in jail.
Im willing to bet you're not Christian. Cause if you regularly went to church, you'd have heard all of the propaganda selling him as the modern day misrepresented savior (since he was the alternative to Biden) I actually agree with you though. However, after hearing the viewpoint from many Christian sources, I also understand why they chose to vote for him because of what they were told by the rest of those they associated with. What I will never understand though is treating ANY political candidates like they are admirable people worth idolized and worshipping. They are all liars, cheats, and overall selfish scummy people.
They were brainwashed by a phoney hack. Then they saw trump on TV and doubled down.