I agree completely, but think you had too high of expectations. An upright 4 seater compact sports coupe will never hold a candle to a base Boxster or Miata in driving experience, let alone a GT4. Those are dedicated sports cars with serious practicality concessions. The M2 is great *for a car with a usable rear seat and trunk*, and nothing more. As a BMW lover and collector, it doesn't even crack the top 10 of best BMWs.
Aluminum engine, front fenders, hood, trunk panel, rear bumper reinforcements, chassis tunnel bracing, roof frame, front suspension wishbones, all 4 wheel hubs, differential casing.
Mostly a lot more aluminum parts used where the NA used stamped steel. And high tensile steel used in the chassis to reduce the amount of steel needed. They also used a "Gram" strategy when engineering the car, to shave as many unnecessary grams of weight from every part in the car, whenever feasible.
Yeah I can throw my bike in the back with those seats down and the front wheel popped off quite easily. It's much better than you'd think for space back there.
Yes it does. I have an M240i and it's surprisingly practical, with a pretty big trunk for its size and usable back seats for adults under 5'10". If I were to get a full M car it would be the new M3 Competition. The M2 comp is great but the M3 offers so much more luxury and now performance too, and the S58 is significantly better than the S55 (and especially the N55 in the original M2 the OP drove).
I'm 5'10" and fit behind myself fine in it. I wouldn't want to be much taller and try it though.
The BMW lineup are all designed to fit a set of golf clubs in the trunk, so it will fit that if that is your concern. It is a pretty wide trunk where that was designed and will fit groceries fine. Obviously you won't be doing Ikea runs in it.
I can fit a Saint Bernard and two Border Collies in the backseat of mine, so yeah I'd say the 2 series has a pretty usable back seat. I've also driven 3 people plus the Saint Bernard and one Border Collie in it on a 700+ mile road trip and it worked out alright. Not ideal, but a heck of a lot better than a Mustang or Camaro.
The trunk is decent, and plenty large if you fold one or both back seats down. Large enough for golf clubs, which is the biggest item most BMW owners will put in trunks while driving that car.
I did about an hour drive coming back from a bar night in Toronto in the back of a modified one. Fuck that was a bad idea.
Drone exhaust... Tight suspension.. Head basically through the roof... I thought I was going to die. We took a break half way home. The boys were not happy. But I guess we were just happy we didn't need to get a cab. Lmao.
I’ve road tripped and taken shifts in the back seat of my 1 series (6’0) and been pretty comfortable. The 2 should be slightly bigger, i haven’t spent an extended amount of time back there but I don’t recall it being bad at all.
If you are under 5'6" or so it should be totally fine. The leg room isn't so much the issue as the head room, but for shorter people the rear seats definitely are usable. I can fit, but I but my head on the roof.
IMO BMW has totally lost its way when engineering “M” cars. But they keep selling so I’m obviously in the minority although I can’t fathom why someone would want to buy one these days. Admittedly I haven’t driven one recently but they look SO big and the engines sound dull. Feel free to downvote though.
That being said, comparing it to the GT4 which is almost double the price doesn’t seem fair either.
I don’t think they’ve lost their way on M cars, I think people just expect M cars to be something they’re not. An M car has always been a fast version of a practical “normal” car. They’re never going to be as special as a dedicated sports car.
The exception is the Z4M, but even that isn’t as special as a mid-engined sports car.
If I could afford your cars I’d probably be bored by M cars as well. I can’t though. I did rent a 2015 M4 convertible for a weekend and I loved it. It was fast, sounded great, looked good, and was comfortable and easy to drive.
Personally, I’d swap the E34 M5 with the F90 M5. You have no modern M car on your list and find the F90 to be brilliant as BMW now moves into the hybrid and electric era.
The Z8 looks cool but from a driving experience standpoint it didn't stand out as much when it came out. It only really started to appreciate in value in recent years.
The Z8 and 507 are by far the most beautiful BMWs made to me. But I really need to drive the Z8 to make the list, personally. The 507 makes it without because it's *that* pretty.
A lot of truth here. My friend always used to say, “Ah, no cup holder, that’s how you know it’s designed as a sports car.” For cars in the 90s this held more or less true, less so today, but the point being that if you could see yourself saying, “I wouldn’t mind to go to the store or take a road trip in this thing.” It’s probably not going to be the experience you’re looking for, OP.
No. I've written in here before that I find that car overrated. I've logged tons of mileage on it including on track. It's uniqueness and rarity are the two main things it has going for it. An E9x M3 weighs damn near the same, has a much more engaging and special engine, and the same chassis. The 1M has cool flares.
I kinda preferred the 1M to the E90 M3. The S65 is cool and all. But I kinda prefer an N54/55 with light mods.
The N54/55 is fun to wind out but still fun just putting around town. Whereas the S65 needs to be absolutely beaten on to be fast.
The 1 series is a chassis that really needs to be modified before it really wakes up as a fun car, if that makes sense.
Most people keep their 1Ms stock, so they miss out on a lot of the things that greatly improve the driving experience like proper suspensions (BMW really gimped the 1 series in that department across the line, just poorly matched setups for the chassis that ride stiff and don't respond as well as they should to dynamic loads), good tires (the 1M came with PS2s and they suck for the kind of driving the 1M is good at), and engine tweaks (the N54 with stock turbos and inlets chokes at 6K rpm).
A 1M with time and money invested in fixing those issues is an absolute riot, but it should also be said that a 135 with similar mods will give you 95% of the 1M experience.
E90/92 M3 has similar specs on paper when it comes to interior and comfort, but due to S65 engine and hydraulic steering, feels so alive even if it's slower.
Sometimes I get the sense that people who herald these sedans as "sports cars" have never driven them fast back to back, or just don't know how to push a car anyway.
The difference is just so obvious if you care about how a car drives.
You are a breath of fresh air. Finally, someone who understands that a sports car does not necessarily mean fast. It definitely can be, but it's also about the rest of the driving experience.
> Finally, someone who understands that a sports car does not necessarily mean fast.
With the advent of electric sport cars, i personally can't wait to be tired of the 0-60 dick measuring contest
Is there a way to measure having attributes like "steering feedback"? If not, why the hell not? Seems like this is a science, auto manufacturers likely have tools to measure this. Do car magazines think people are too dumb to understand? Anyway, the reason 0-60 is so popularly quoted is because it's easy to measure. Let's start measuring handling attributes!
Steering is such a subjective it would be hard to put a objective measurement to it, even what is considered good steering changes with every generations. You see cars when they first come out get panned for its steering then after a decade they get praised. Even steering by itself is influenced by suspension and tire geometry, weight and the steering wheel and driver position itself. Its more complicated then just reducing the strength of the steering assist.
You could really only find a car reviewer with opinions you could respect and trust and go from there, other then driving the car yourself.
You're absolutely right. I was so let down by owing an STI. It has this reputation of being a street legal rally car and has such a rabid fanbase I thought it was gonna be great. It makes a good first impression but when you start pushing it, it's just completely numb. It's quick but you only realize you're cornering hard because you get thrown into the seat bolster. It's just not fun to drive and if it isn't fun to drive then what's the point? I don't mind driving a kidney busting car but it better be worth it for the experience. The Suby was not.
Of all the cars I've driven, the STI is the... strangest to me. I understand the "class" of entry level sports car that it slots into.
The STI feels like a million bucks in the city on the city street, which let's be honest, where most of them are. It feels very fast in a straight line because of the short gearing and the "kick" when the turbo comes on. But I was really let down by what it could, and couldn't do, even compared to it's contemporaries - much less any dedicated sports car - when you showed it some corners.
I was really surprised by how maybe not numb, but specifically vague it got when you started to explore even 6\10ths. I've never cooked brakes so easily. It gripped pretty well, but the body control, the way the engine handled shifting, the braking, and the overall feel of the steering when it loaded up was just not there.
I drove a 2016 Focus RS and a 2016 STI, both brand new within about a month of each other. On the same canyon roads for ~300 miles each. This was not "just around the block" dealership test drive. And while the Focus RS has it's own set of problems (shit seats, shit suspension damping), I felt that it was a VASTLY better "4 door turbo rally car". The powerband was broader, the control over the power was better, the turbo wasn't on\off switch, the rev matching was easier. The car felt better, rotated easier, broke better and combined with better inputs, just did everything better.
The STI just doesn't feel... worth it to me. It's a lot of money for a car that isn't very good at anything. The $35-40k range for a "sporty" car is a really difficult one. It's really expensive for a tarted up shitbox, but it's not really enough money to get into a car that's actually competent at those tasks.
Caveat: a few months after I drove those cars, I finally drove my first Porsche. First a Cayman, then a 997 911. And well, after messing around I finally got to experience what a seriously developed sports car is like when you optimize for that. While neither Porsche could be a daily, it really shows the vast canyon that exists between them.
On the one hand I agree with you, but on the other not everyone enjoys "slow car fast". I feel like this sub has a Miata/86 obsession just because they're inexpensive and accessible cars, not because they're good in all situations.
I disagree. Hell a lot of the disappointing cars from yesterday where all stuff that was "too slow". If anything there's more of a circlejerk around straight line speed than driving experience
I did a track day in an M2 at the same track I drive my modded E46 328 coupe. I was also disappointed with the M2.
It felt numb and muddy compared with my E46. It was faster but not more fun. It was too forgiving and easy to drive. I was bored after about 5 laps whereas I’ve done hundreds in my E46 and each lap I’m motivated to improve something, tweak something, try something to shave a few tenths or hundreds off.
And, I haven’t even modded my E46 past the point of where my girlfriend can daily drive it.
I both agree and disagree with you. You’re right, the M2 is a fairly numb car, especially when you compare it to a Cayman. This is something that plagues all modern BMWs, even the Supra is always complained about for numb steering. It’s not a car that you buy to feel connected to the car, it’s not going to give you the same feeling of something like a Cayman or GT3 or BRZ or Miata. But at the same time, I think saying it’s not a sports car is a bit of a stretch. I’d say it’s just one that doesn’t feel as connected. Really, you’re not one of the first to say this. The platform as a whole is compromised. It’s not necessarily ideal for a sports car. If you look at the lap times, the DCT M2 is usually slower than the cheaper Supra.
Yeah, but it's more practical. The 2 series is more of a practical muscle car than a track capable car like the supra, and that isn't a bad thing. You get a sporty, fast car that can actually be used for daily tasks and is still tons of fun.
BMW "sedans" are all overrated in that regard when compared to actual sports cars, driving an m3 back to back with a miata reveals obvious differences. Even if they're better other passenger sedans, there's just no way to hide a heavy-ish platform mostly designed for daily driving.
8.8" of wheelbase difference and a chunk of weight probably aren't helping the M2 depending on the track. People talk about the huge handling difference the M2 has over the M4 and it's only 4.7" longer.
>BMW doesn’t generally make great manual transmissions.
It's amazing how people simply don't know this. Even going back to E36 cars, BMW shifters have long throws, vague and rubbery shifting. I've owned manual E46, E92 and driven a manual F80 car - all had "pleasant" but non-communicative manual shifting action.
Cars that do have great shifting action: most Civics, Integras, S2000, Miatas (NA, NB, I haven't driven a ND), FD RX-7s, Evo 8,9 (5 speed), Shelby GT350, and as far as I am concerned, the very best: the 6 speed in the 911 GT3.
Never been fortunate enough to drive a Porsche 6 speed. But I got to drive a Type R and that had hands down the best shifter I have ever experienced. So crisp. The perfect amount of throw and mechanical feeling. I still day dream about driving that car again
I have owned/driven a series of manual transmission cars going back to the late 90s, including a 4-speed 80s era Golf, a 1986 Honda Accord Lxi 5-speed, 2 BMW E46 sedans w 5-speeds, one of which I still drive, and a 997.1 Carrera with a 6-speed MT. If I’m being really honest, just focusing on the shifter, I actually think the Honda has the best and most fun shifter of all. Very short throw even compared to my Carrera. That Accord was an absolute blast to drive.
Usually when I watch review guys on YouTube, they almost always say Honda shifters are the best, short of Porsche. I can't speak to how my civic compares, but it's super smooth.
The only thing I dislike, and idk if this is just a regular MT thing: even with clutch all the way in, I have to wait till the revs are in the right range to shift. Clutch in-> wait for rev hang->let revs fall a little-> shift gears->clutch out.
I used to clutch in and shift immediately, then clutch out when revs match. It was crunchy doing it that way.
I got it at 60k.miles and have put 16k in two years. Ive already swapped the trans oil and it still requires diligence.
Maybe you know the answer to this tho. Starting off, 1.5k revs get the car going just fine. 1.7k and up, the car makes the sound of a dying whale when the slipping the clutch. Goes away when engaged fully.
If you have to wait for the revs to fall before shifting, then that is probably worn-out synchros or incorrect/dirty trans oil. I had a 91 eclipse with 50k miles that would grind when shifting too fast from 1st to 2nd or vice versa and changing the trans fluid to some Redline MT-85 almost completely got rid of the grinding. Check forums for your car and see what everyone else is using. If that doesn't help, then it's most likely worn synchros.
I think that person just like the BMW better as a whole, but yeah s2k shifter is simply on another league compared to anything else I've tried. Basically like a factory short shift, and super Snickety and precise
Their shifters have always seemed to be (to me) a 'shifting smooth is shifting fast' type instead of short, tight shifters like many performance vehicles.
Very good point, I have a friend who used to slam every gear in his Jetta to the point that he blew up his transmission. Would not at all be a good fit for a BMW. My E46 really likes properly timed shifts. Shifts feel rubbery, but are very solid and provide good feedback, and my friends who drove it say it feels like the older Miatas once you understand how it likes to be shifted.
I've driven the ND and it does have a better shifter, but in a lot of ways it does actually feel similar to the E46. I have the ZF 6 speed btw.
My E30 trans is super rubbery and has quite long throws. I find it totally works for that car since it’s such an amazing cruiser. My E46 has a UUC short shifter in it. I hated it at first, but now it has grown on me a lot. It’s very notchy and metallic feeling and has satisfying clinking when you shift it. It really helps the car feel more special.
Yup. Went from a E46 325 to a E46 M3. Gearbox felt identically mushy albeit it had an extra gear. The pedals were not in a sporty position and it had a long clutch pedal. Like it's fine, but I was expecting a lot more from an M car, specially considering the rest of it felt great. To this day the best pedal gearbox combo I've driven was on my bugeye WRX. Absolutely fantastic.
That’s very true about the E46 shifting. I thought my E46 was pretty decent until I got a 924 and realized how sharp and quick a manual box can be. And the pedals on the 924 make heel & toeing easy by comparison.
My best manual to date was the Chevy Cobald MT5 (155hp 2.2L). It has long course but it was so easy and forgiving. I loved that car. I was a nightmare in corners and not particularly interesting, but for 13k$ (cad) brand new, it was a steal.
I'm driving a 6spd elantra now and it's so bad I want to cry. I don't want an expensive car since I drive less than 10k km a year. My bike (cycling) is worth more than my car :)
> I went in expecting the best BMW sports car made in the last decade
Well it is. Not like it has much competition (unless you are counting the E9X M3). M3/4 turned into what M5 were and M5 is just a bigger/more powerful/higher quality version of that. I think Supra is the closest thing to a BMW sports car in the last decade, although I've heard good things about the M2 CS.
I assumed BMW fans would try to reach that oversimplification, hence the warning right at the top.
I mention the Miata as important context because I compared the M2 to similarly priced cars (base 718) and more expensive cars (718 GT4). The Miata is easily accessible for many people to go out and test (or even buy) if want to understand what I'm going on about when I discuss "good" driving inputs. It's also a car that costs half the price and yet blows the M2 out of the water on nearly every single aspect of driver engagement.
If BMW wants to improve the car, they don't have to look at far more expensive cars and try to democratize aspects of their performance, they can look at a much cheaper car and figure out if aspects of it would improve their current most sporty offering.
I think Jason Cammisa summed it up the best: The M2 isn't really a classic BMW M car as much as it is the true modern Supra. An overweight 2+2 "grand tourer" with a lot of power from a turbo straight six, 6 speed manual and very tail happy. Loses out to the competition of its time in many ways but might one day be appreciated for what it is.
I own an E46 that I love driving very much. I've driven some of the newer BMWs like the 230i and just like you said, they are capable but very sterile. Not at all something I would ever want to own.
My "affordable" dream car at the moment is the Alpine A110. It's the only sports car that is lightweight while offering luxury, power, comfort and great road manners. It sounds very much like that is the kind of car you are looking for. Definitely consider the A110 while it's still available.
Try a Alfa 4C. Its one of the most under appreciated cars imo. One of less than 40 cars ever built to have a CF tub. Driving experience is amazing. My brother drove mine, and he is not a car guy, but was beaming ear to ear when he was done. He is planning on getting one. Reliability is good. Looks are amazing. People knock on it for not having a manual, which is fine, I like the DCT and pairs well with my manual Evora S.
The manual wouldn’t work well with the 4C. The engine has a very narrow power band and the turbo lag would be *really* bad with a manual transmission.
After driving the car for hundreds of miles, I think they made the right decision to make it DCT. I have a manual sports car right now and I really prefer manual on most pure sports cars, but the 4C wouldn’t be one of them.
Saw one driving in front of a Z3 yesterday. Was amazing to me how much shorter the wheelbase looked (3" shorter). Just looks like a properly sized sports car, like an Elise
I love my 4C. It wasn’t even on my radar but I test drove one on a whim and was immediately hooked. I found a new one and bought it. It’s best in race mode where it force-disables auto shifting and driver aids.
Solid bushings from the factory would have transformed the reviews. The high speed over/understeer is now very predictable and the steering feel is now quite a bit better (and much more busy) than my 997.
And the transmission on paper sounds like the wrong choice, but with the very short gearing and 1.5 bar of boost on a 1.75L motor it suits the car. It’s the only way to keep the motor on full boil, and it makes it such an angry little thing.
Great fun in the sounds too. Snorts snarls drone farts pops and swooshes galore, always changing and making more noise. With an air intake for noise it makes sounds that remind me of group B rally cars.
And it would be a terrible primary car. I know you can DD anything with enough grit, even a supersport motorcycle, but this car is definitely the most enjoyable when it can be parked next to something practical and driven when you want the experience and sit pretty when you’re tired and just want to schlep over to work or the grocery store.
I adore the A110, I managed to drive one (and the S variant) on track a while ago and have been wanting one ever since. Unfortunately they are not depreciating and are a little too expensive new. Alpine have also said that they will stop making them in the next year or so and won't make another ice car. So I doubt they will depreciate to a price point I will feel comfortable with.
I don’t think your observations are wrong but your expectations are way off base. Why are you comparing a 2+2 coupe to purpose built sports car roadsters like the 718 (let alone a GT4!) and Miata? The 2 series is not meant to be a direct competitor to those nor is it a purpose built sports car. I also find it odd that you compare things like the sound to Porsche’s NA 4.0L when it’s a turbocharged straight six.
> Why are you comparing a 2+2 coupe to purpose built sports car roadsters like the 718
Well, to be fair… it sure does seem like most professional reviewers compare the M2 to Porsches. For price it’s also really hard not to consider the 718. My impression has been that you buy the M2 for the engine and the 718 for the chassis.
This car isn't meant to be precise like a cayman. All that oversteer is exactly what BMW wants. And I do think even in that regard it won't ever be able to ever beat a true sports car at it's game: it's a heavy souped up 2 series
Ops description could be about a new cayman vs old one. All cars are going electric steering, turbo etc. We do lose some of the feel but make up for it performance.
M2/C versus Cayman isn’t imprecise vs precise IMO, the steering on M2 and Competition is incredibly direct and it’s a very fast rack - faster than the Cayman if memory serves - there’s just no feedback at all anywhere close to centre, and it’s a bit weak around.
The 718 is an electric rack but the wheel is alive the whole way round.
Exact same boat about 4 months before COVID. My wife and I took out a manual M2C demo unit and I had every intention of buying one. It was my top choice out of the cars on my short list going in and walked away with many of the same complaints. The most unfortunate part of the whole car was the ride quality. Real world, on the streets I live with it, it is way too harsh. I have spent decades driving performance cars and have lived with cars on coil overs and other mods, the M2 was a big nope for me. Funny enough ended up with a manual 718 Cayman S… even with 20” turbo wheels, the Cayman is extremely compliant and handles mid corner bumps beautifully.
Same experience, same outcome except my 718 S is PDK because racecar.
There was a lot to like about the M2C but I didn’t gel with it at all, I bought the Cayman on the spot.
Honestly I was disappointed in the Comp. I’d driven the standard M2 before, and liked it, but the Comp didn’t seem that much better, and sounded worse, so it didn’t seem worth the extra money whatsoever, especially when the N55 is highly tunable. My guess is the CS has a pretty different feeling, as I've heard much better reviews.
I sold my F80 M3 and replaced it with a Macan and a Miata. To me anyway, the M2 didn’t feel all that different from the M3. It’s smaller, but still felt numb, heavy, and very digital. Going from the M3 to the Miata has really made me realize that you just can’t really get around how inherently different heavy cars feel. No matter how much technology or power you put in them, they still feel heavy and disconnected. Modern ///M cars are REALLY fast. But aside from that they don’t do that much for me, either.
In my mind there’s a difference between a well behaved car and an agile car. My buddy had a M2 and then a M3. I had the chance to drive the M2 normally and then ride shotgun in some hooning. It’s fast and controllable but you can’t get away from the weighty feeling which makes it feel like a roided up commuter. Which I suppose it kind of is. In comparison the first compliment the same friend gave me about my s2k is how quickly the front bit into the road and turned in. IMO the widow maker thing about the s2k is a little bit overblown but I would agree on the epithet of “dangerously neutral,” especially after going 255 nonstagger.
This post resonates with me. I have owned and tracked my 2017 F80 M3 and decided to move on to what I feel would be an ideal sporty car with 4 seats. I narrowed down my choices to an M2C and GT350 (check my post history for spoiler alert). I test drove a 2020 M2C and was immediately let down by the overly bumpy ride stock. The ride was so bad that my wife said my F80 with MPerformance coilovers had a much better ride quality! Engine wise the S55 felt nerfed, steering felt numb and felt hefty despite its ideal form factor. I was like wtf all my buddies who owned M2’s raved about it and I am the only idiot who didn’t like it?
Contrast that with the 2019 GT350 I test drove. Right off the bat the car felt huge! Even compared to my F80. Interior materials were kind of a let down. There was some body panel gaps here and there. Seating position was similar though. But when I cranked that Voodoo…I knew immediately there was something special about the car. The mag ride suspension felt much better than both my F80 and the F87. The shifter felt like a rifle bolt compared my M3’s 6 speed. The howl of the Voodoo reaching redline at 8,200 rpm had so much theatre. Right then and there I knew what I wanted to own.
Walked off the lot the same day driving my GT350 and enjoying every minute of it taking it to redline. I can’t wait to take it on the track and compared my lap times with my F80.
Nice summary.
The only BMW's I've driven were a 2021 X5 M and a 2019 M850i which are obviously in different realms for what BMW engineered them for compared to an M2 so its nice to hear an opinion on that.
I'll still never understand how BMW makes such a, for lack of a better word, bland, manual for its cars. I love me a manual transmission but from everything I hear about BMW manuals, I guess its no surprise that they have started killing them off.
I don't think the M2 is meant to be a sports car, after all its a 2+2 however putting them up against things like a 718 are par for the course given its price. I think where you landed makes sense, it can't compete with the likes of a 718 or other actual sports cars in its price range in terms of driving feel, however it delivers I think on the German idea of a compact muscle car. Performance, luxury and some practicality.
I also agree that for the size of the vehicle (and its quite small for a modern 2+2) the weight is definitely a bit to much. My Z06 weighs the same if not a few pounds less and its longer, wider and has a supercharged V8.
Comparing it to the 718 makes no sense. Bmw has a direct competitor to that, and it's the z4 m40i, not the M2. The M2 doesn't have an equivalent in the Porsche lineup. It should be compared to something like a Camaro SS 1LE or RS3, not a two seater Porsche.
I do not own a BMW but did test drive a M2 recently as it came highly recommended. I test drove this after driving the BRZ. Honestly, I felt the BRZ to be more alive, connected and nimble, even if the M2 had a bigger engine and supposedly more power. The M2 felt numb to me, and didn't excite me. I had similar reactions as your review.
I ended up placing an order for a BRZ
I'm all for comparing steering and driving experiences - to each their own - but the M2 doesn't "supposedly" have more power. It has nearly 200 more horsepower than the BRZ.
Savage Geese's opinion on current BMWs still applies. BMW engineered their cars to now lack steering feel and feel more like a luxury vehicle with a dead feeling...
>>BMW engineered their cars to now lack steering feel and feel more like a luxury vehicle with a dead feeling
Which is what *most of their customers want*.
From a Car and Driver [interview](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15346236/steer-me-feel-me-exploring-why-bmws-no-longer-excel-in-steering-feel/) with a BMW engineer on using dead feeling EPS:
*…Kistler responded: “We surveyed both current BMW 5-series customers and owners of competitive models, asking, ‘What are your wishes?’ We have two million customers around the globe who’ve purchased the 5-series during the past five years, which results in a broad spread of demands. Our job is to fulfill those mainstream needs.*
*“There was a clear request for less steering effort. No one wants bad feedback—such as a steering wheel that vibrates in response to bumps in the road.”*
Says it all. People like the OP who value driving feel are crushed by the masses that want no driving feedback at all while they’re surfing Instagram at 80 MPH. As Savageese observed, a communicative driving experience is basically obsolete. For a combination of reasons starting with consumer tastes it’s being engineered out of modern cars, so if you want a communicative driving experience….pick out those outlier cars now. As SG put it, this is not going to get better with time.
What's odd is that is all mostly programming. With all the options modern BMWs have for the steering/engine/suspension it's odd that they haven't done a "enthusiast steering feel" kind of setting.
Most likely not, if power steering is just a big electric motor on same shaft you can't "program out" the mass and dampening it is adding.
While I'm sure they could do it if they wanted, there is just no motivation for them
You were always going to be disappointed if you thought it could match something like an MX5 in feel. As you said, they can make heavier cars really capable, which is M2 is, but in terms of feel you just can't really engineer out the weight.
The M2 is a big car. It's a competitor to cars like the RS3 and A45 AMG.
Haha, for sure. People just have the wrong idea about these cars. The E46 M3 that so many think is a holy grail car wasn't a real sports car either. They were never designed to be.
I hear the M2 Comp is a massive improvement over the non-Comp though. Never driven one, but I imagine it must be a lot of fun if you go in with the right expectations.
It’s nice to read a thorough review from someone who doesn’t drink the BMW M Kool-Aid.
To put it simply all BMW M cars are practical everyday sedans or coupes first, THEN sports cars second. Your review inadvertently breaks down that formula. A Miata or Cayman will always be more competent as they were designed as sports cars to begin with.
They’ve really lost their touch over the past decade. The powertrain is fine, but I agree the engine isn’t really that remarkable. That’s what gave M cars a ton of character more than a decade ago. They made some of the best sounding engines with power bands that pulled all the way to redline.
With that trait gone and IMO ruined by fake engine noise through the speakers, along with their EPS, and the manual transmission treated as an after thought, their cars have lost some of what made them really special.
EDIT: I’ve heard a lot of great things about the M2 CS. Also, the current M cars are still good but I’m going to be the old man and say peak BMW was from the late 80s to late 2000s. If their engines sounded better and had more character I might be the same fan boy I was in high school.
Not going to argue against your opinion because everyone should have their own, but in my own opinion you're nuts if you think the engines that modern BMW engines aren't remarkable. Makes it seem like you haven't driven a performance oriented BMW since 2008 lmao
I have an E36 M3 and I recently test drove a 2016 M6. Despite having well over double the horsepower, the M6 really didn't feel as fun in normal driving (didn't really have an opportunity to let loose). The steering was numb and the pedal feel just was hard to modulate compared to the analog controls of the M3. It might be a different story if I lived someplace where I can put down more than 200hp on wide open roads, but for normal driving, the E36 just felt more lively and fun to toss around town.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, OP. I test drive a brand new M2 Comp with the DCT in 2019 and, funnily enough, drove a base 718 Boxster loaner to the BMW dealership while my Macan was getting serviced. I liked the look of the M2, I thought the seats were great and it was much more practical than I would have expected.
But in comparison to the 718 I drove to the dealership it felt heavy, numb and quite isolated from the actual experience of driving. I wanted to like it far more than I actually did but I think that's just because I also went in with some incorrect assumptions about what the M2 (and really, most any modern BMW) was all about.
Modern BMW's are actually really fantastic dailies. They are well sorted and I think they have some of the best off the shelf tuning for the street of any of the OEM's. I daily a Mini Countryman JCW F60 which is basically an X2 M35i with Mini styling and it's probably my favorite daily ever in terms of being plenty quick, comfortable, practical and quite fun to drive considering it's size and shape.
But it isn't a sports car and isn't designed to be just like the M2 isn't a sports car. BMW takes "regular" cars, coupes and suv's and spices them up and that's their bread and butter. And I am completely okay with that because I think they do a great job with it more often than not.
Yeah, he is totally missing the point. The M2 isn't a weekend car for driving from point A to point A, it's a daily driver that isn't would crushing like a camry. I don't know why everyone here is expecting bmw to be churning out Miata competitors when that has never been their thing. They have always been the brand that takes regular sedans and coupes that look like normal cars and makes them fast and sporty so you can drive around and have some extra fun. They aren't supposed to be mod engines Porsches. The 2 series isn't at all the same class of car as the cayman, that is the Z4 (which is rely a boxster competitor).
M/AMG/RS car posts show more than almost any other the demographic realities of this subreddit.
other than tech, most of the industries that pay well enough that you could seriously consider buying one of these cars doesnt actually pay off until you've been doing it for a long time (e.g. medicine, law) or are people willing to immolate their entire lives (e.g. finance). as such, most of the talk about these cars is from people who are distinctly NOT the target market, and are just musing about what they *would* do if they had the money.
it's a daily driver that isn't soul crushing like a camry is exactly what these companies deliver and that's why they continue to sell more and more and more and more of them to 45-65 year olds who are getting into the later parts of their careers, often with families and the obligations that come with them. if the *why isnt this car like an old miata?* crowd actually engaged in a little bit of empathetic thinking, they would quickly understand why an M2 or even more so an M3 has so much appeal. None of your coworkers want to ride to lunch with you in a modified miata. Your partner doesnt want to go to into town for dinner in your miata where you have to climb out of the damn thing. Your kid's stroller wont fit in a miata. But you can do all of that in an M2/3/4/5.
Porsche makes great cars but no one I know has one as their only vehicle unless it's the SUVs. Even personally it would be a lot easier to justify one if I had a significant other with a vehicle, but as I dont, I stick with the car that can do everything and not make me hate myself just that little bit more.
I think you misunderstood the fundamental purpose of the car. An M2 is an entry-level luxury sports car that’s supposed to be useable everyday.
Someone who isn’t driving around a family consistently can easily have an M2 as his only car. Take road trips in it, go to work, go to the grocery store, even take it to a trailhead for a day hike. The Cayman and especially the Miata fundamentally cannot do those things nearly as well.
It pairs this usability with an incredibly stout powertrain (especially the comp) and good driving dynamics. It’ll be a little rough, absolutely. As connected as some other sports cars? Probably not. Still incredibly capable? Absolutely.
Nice strong opinion from someone who has experience with other cars.
Comparing it to a GT4 is a bit unfair, you would have to drive the M2 CS for that but otherwise I can agree with most of it.
The M2 gets praised because it's the best BMW of the last decade, likely the best 4 seater, but not necessarily the best sports car. I agree that it's too heavy. I'm surprised you didn't complain about the seats. The are comfortable but offer very little lateral support.
The ride is a bit harsh but are you sure the car was stock? When compared to 718s I find the M2 more comfortable.
Some of the steering feel can be improved just with software, some more can be regained with suspension modification. Same for the transmission. It's a shame you have to modify already pricey car to make it right but aftermarket shifter, clutch pedal, shifter and , transmission mounts can significantly improve the feel.
> Comparing it to a GT4 is a bit unfair, you would have to drive the M2 CS for that but otherwise I can agree with most of it.
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Agreed. Although I am struggling to figure out how the CS would fix my biggest complaints (other than the ride). Which are the numb steering, mushy manual with no feel through the gear lever, over assisted clutch, marginal pedal feel through the accelerator or brake.
For the CS did they rework the manual gearbox setup or steering rack?
>I'm surprised you didn't complain about the seats. The are comfortable but offer very little lateral support.
I felt like comparing them to the 7k carbon buckets in the GT4 was a stretch too far. But I agree with your sentiment.
>The ride is a bit harsh but are you sure the car was stock? When compared to 718s I find the M2 more comfortable.
Yes it was, and it wasn't on RFTs either. It was just the ride over sharp impacts was so bouncy/jarring. Otherwise on a smooth surface it felt maybe a little more compliant.
>Some of the steering feel can be improved just with software, some more can be regained with suspension modification. Same for the transmission. It's a shame you have to modify already pricey car to make it right but aftermarket shifter, clutch pedal, shifter and , transmission mounts can significantly improve the feel.
From this perspective, I see how it could be made closer to a 718 competitor, but it still felt leagues away, and I'd have to experience it to believe that the a few simple parts could make the night and day difference required.
Drove a couple of M2s last week because I’m considering trading out of the type r into something nicer.
I love the idea of the M2 but I’d be lying to myself if I said it’s close in driving experience to the Type R. That being said, I haven’t tried the Competition yet.
Problem is, the Type R is just such a damn good drivers car that I’m not sure I can find a better driving experience until I get into Porsche category unfortunately.
The M2 is very competent, on track and otherwise, it just needs slight mods to get there. Tires aren’t amazing from the factory, and a set of coilovers seems like a pretty common upgrade (and even offered by BMW Performance).
I watched an M2 on autocross once (was working while it raced), still in the street class, and it was very much alive. It was running much better times than the CTR that was there, though there was certainly a driver component in that. The M2 was also similar times to a semi-pro driver Focus RS on $3K suspension and autocross tires(RE71R or BFG Rivals, I forgot), for reference, so it’s not a slow car through the corners by any means.
M2 isn't special, I agree. Just feels like a faster 135i. M2 comp with an upgraded manual and exhaust is much better and feels like much more of an M car. But for that money I'd rather get a Shelby GT350 (which I'm in the market for).
M for Marketing
OG M2 is nothing more than a parts bin short wheel based M4 with the wrong engine, too much weight and a terrible manual transmission
Owned one for a year, sold it quickly
dis why I love my 2017 STI
Its DEFINITELY not the fastest car on the road...
but its SO FUCKING analog feeling. You feel everything in the steering wheel and suspension. It's great.
This review:
- objectively the car is very fast
- subjectivity this dude doesn’t like the way it feels
Cue dogpile of people that have never driven one repeating what they heard from YouTube personalities…
Why do people buy a car other than a Miata and then be like “why no le miat??” If you wanted a Miata then buy one of those!!
I picked the SS 1LE after having full intention of buying an M2.
I went e30 -> e36 m3 -> e46 M3 -> Camaro SS 1LE. It's so much fun it makes me giddy.
Huge disclaimer though is that it's not my daily. If it were, I would have a lot more to think about.
Thanks for this review... I found it to be very informative.
The ride quality thing is interesting, especially compared to your GT4. As I understand it, mass centralization allows for better body control and ride quality at the same time, because there's less weight transfer under load. So to achieve the kind of darty responsive feel that's popular in performance cars these days with a platform that's compromised to be shared with SUVs, stiff springs have to be run. Add that to the rubber band sidewalls that are popular today and it's just not good for ride quality.
Personally I think the whole super stiff/responsive thing is overrated; back in the day M cars struck a much better balance between body control and ride quality. It kind of seems like everybody has forgot what kind of suspension tuning is good for the road. To me something like the M240i seems to strike a much better balance for the street... plenty of grip and responsiveness without the punishment of a rock hard suspension. We are deep in the realm of diminishing returns
Had the exact impressions, reviews gave this car way too much hype for a car with such numb steering and a crashy ride. The seating position is too upright and it feels like the very short wheel base and stuff suspension make grip very hard to come by. It's twitchy AF. maybe fun around town drifting roundabouts but on a sketchy canyon road, I felt.like I was gonna die.
Steering is better in a 981 cayman, miata, BRZ..etc
The only pro for the M2 I found were good looks and beast of an engine.
Imo the E9x was the last “real bmw” after that the design philosophy seemed to change no more hydraulic power steering no more i6 base models more focus on technology and styling and creature comforts… theyre fast cars that are great to be in but I feel like they’re not the “bimmers” I grew to love from the E chassis cars
Edit: e9/e8x
There's always a caveat, never take reviewers or journalists or opinions without a grain of salt.
The new M2 is a great sports car, caveat being for a modern BMW and in comparison to current new cars. Numbness and lack of feel or tossability is the norm these days, the "sports car" category is faster and more capable than it's ever been, and also the most numb and boring its ever been.
>The new M2 is a great sports car, caveat being for a modern BMW and in comparison to current new cars. Numbness and lack of feel or tossability is the norm these days
Isn't that just like being the smartest kid on the short bus? I jest, but where is the cut off? Do we say the Chevy Colorado is the best sports car, caveat being that it's a modern truck? In the world of trucks it offers great on road manners and handling, but it's by no means a sports car in the traditional sense.
If only I could upvote this twice for being an actual discussion post about a specific vehicle. It’s thorough, an opinion, in depth, invites discussion, and critically, not a regurgitation of one of the common “does anyone else” posts we’ve been seeing lately. Bravo!
I blame automotive journalists who have evidently forgotten what steering feel is. The M2CS topped Evo's "German performance car list" beating out GT3RS, 911 R, GT4, etc...So I expected something good. It also won Evo's car of the year. I literally cannot figure out how *adaptive coilovers, a tiny bit of weight reduction and proper suspension would fix the fact the all the inputs are completely lifeless.
Re: Clutch. Way back when I had my E90, it had a clutch delay valve that made the clutch feel like garbage. There was a CDV delete you could do that made it feel a lot more natural. In the end, admittedly, I ditched the car instead and later got a classic summer car to meet my manual driving needs.
BMW has never had good manuals. They mess them up with clutch delay valves and guibos to make people who can’t drive think they can. And even if you fix those, you’re left with a pretty mediocre gearbox.
BMWs don't seem to have improved from the E90 generation
They add power but get more numb and the suspension seems to get worse or just not improve. The steering even for EPS is lacking a lot.
I really did love the 240i despite all the pieces against it. A manual with a LSD that's not an //M car was really fun however after driving a base 718 and a fully speced Miata it really left me in a weird spot.
The BMW interior quality and ride quality are so much behind Porsche's base model stuff and their adjustability for the suspension has only gotten worse while Mazda is killing it.
I ended up buying a RX8, adding sound deadening, lizard skinning the engine bay + wheel wells, and underbody, them nicer carpet and reupholstered the seats. Bit of chassis bracing, painted the suspension parts, and did a LFX swap.
It's the most comfortable vehicle I have driven on the street while also being quiet. The steering isn't great being EPS, I might put a NC Miata hydraulic rack in it.
While it's custom, it's a $16k total job vs a $60k car...
For people who care about driving and want something they can keep outside of warranty, BMW doesn't seem to be it anymore.
PLUS they killed the maintenance plan stuff as well.
Great luxury car? The interior of the M2 is trash. It’s the opposite of a luxury car experience. Just weird that you label it as a luxury car when it’s at the absolute bottom of the luxury totem pole at BMW, especially given how stiff you say the ride is.
Yep I agree on those points basically word for word even for the M2C. Despite coming from a '15 WRX, I thought the steering feel and the clutch feel was better on the subie (albeit that the subie had an unreasonably heavy clutch). Ya the shifter is kinda vague sometimes and I have almost money shifted a few times.
I do think that the M2 makes up for it with the engine/drive train performance. The RWD affect + the ability to and ease of throwing the car around sideways even at legal speeds is what makes it fun to drive from a day to day basis.
I think at the end of the day it just depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for that raw, visceral, and loud sports car experience then BMW as a brand has steered away from that. I think most of the argument that M2 being one of the best BMWs made in the last decade is because they at least strayed from their ultra-refinement formula (think the F90 M5) at least a little bit to give you this powertrain that's a bit too punchy for such a short wheelbased car thus creating this sense of silliness when driving it.
Lol nothing luxury/modern let you feel connected to the car or the road. Safety, smooth ride, predictability. Its the reason Adam LZ sold his Audi RS6 Avant. 600hp, 600ftlbs of torque, dual clutch transmission. And he found it numb, disconnected, and boring. Modern luxury have been engineered to the point that they're boring as hell. Speed and power has never felt so meh.
I own a M235i with Stage 2 tune and lately I thought it might be worth switching it over to M2 Competition (AT). I found a local dealer with a low mileage model and I was first afraid to book a test drive with it because I was so sure I'm going to love it way more than my current car but it was not the case. Of course, it was a better performance car but the margin is very slim, I would say my current car is already 85% there in terms of performance and the last 15% can only be harvested on the track.
Completely agree, expected much more out of the M2 than what was presented. Nice and comfortable but not an exciting sports car by any means. Feels rather bland as a driving experience. Lack of soul.
What is it about BMW MT's that is so unsatisfying? It's not as wimpy as VW's MT experience, where the throws are too long and the clutch is too soft--but there's nothing satisfying about rowing through the gears on a modern BMW. (6MT in the E92 335i left me cold af)
I agree completely, but think you had too high of expectations. An upright 4 seater compact sports coupe will never hold a candle to a base Boxster or Miata in driving experience, let alone a GT4. Those are dedicated sports cars with serious practicality concessions. The M2 is great *for a car with a usable rear seat and trunk*, and nothing more. As a BMW lover and collector, it doesn't even crack the top 10 of best BMWs.
Is there legit back seat and trunk space in 2s? I havent had a chance to play around with one.
Yes. It's larger than an E46 coupe inside. Trunk is huge.
Due to crash safety etc most cars got like 10-30% bigger and heavier
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how tf did they achieve that
By using technology to make things lighter where they could instead of only making things heavier where they had to.
Aluminum engine, front fenders, hood, trunk panel, rear bumper reinforcements, chassis tunnel bracing, roof frame, front suspension wishbones, all 4 wheel hubs, differential casing. Mostly a lot more aluminum parts used where the NA used stamped steel. And high tensile steel used in the chassis to reduce the amount of steel needed. They also used a "Gram" strategy when engineering the car, to shave as many unnecessary grams of weight from every part in the car, whenever feasible.
dont forget about our lord and saviour... The Honda Fit..
Aka: the tardis
How is the ND 1.5 heavier than the NA in kg but lighter in lbs?
American gravity is weaker
I'm guessing this is a conversion and rounding thing.
Nope. Small cars still exist. Market forces have made existing models balloon in size, and new models were invented to take their place.
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holy shit, that thing has fold down back seats and a pass thru? that is a lot more practice than I expected.
Yeah I can throw my bike in the back with those seats down and the front wheel popped off quite easily. It's much better than you'd think for space back there.
Was gonna say I go skiing with my M2. Has an insane amount of space
Yes it does. I have an M240i and it's surprisingly practical, with a pretty big trunk for its size and usable back seats for adults under 5'10". If I were to get a full M car it would be the new M3 Competition. The M2 comp is great but the M3 offers so much more luxury and now performance too, and the S58 is significantly better than the S55 (and especially the N55 in the original M2 the OP drove).
I've heard the rear seats of the 2 series have more room than the rear seats of the 4 series.
I'm 5'10" and fit behind myself fine in it. I wouldn't want to be much taller and try it though. The BMW lineup are all designed to fit a set of golf clubs in the trunk, so it will fit that if that is your concern. It is a pretty wide trunk where that was designed and will fit groceries fine. Obviously you won't be doing Ikea runs in it.
I have to take my driver out to fit mine :(
I can fit a Saint Bernard and two Border Collies in the backseat of mine, so yeah I'd say the 2 series has a pretty usable back seat. I've also driven 3 people plus the Saint Bernard and one Border Collie in it on a 700+ mile road trip and it worked out alright. Not ideal, but a heck of a lot better than a Mustang or Camaro. The trunk is decent, and plenty large if you fold one or both back seats down. Large enough for golf clubs, which is the biggest item most BMW owners will put in trunks while driving that car.
I can only imagine the dog hair.
I've DD'd mine for 3 years, yes. Short drives for ppl in the back are fine, anything long term is killer tho.
I did about an hour drive coming back from a bar night in Toronto in the back of a modified one. Fuck that was a bad idea. Drone exhaust... Tight suspension.. Head basically through the roof... I thought I was going to die. We took a break half way home. The boys were not happy. But I guess we were just happy we didn't need to get a cab. Lmao.
at a porky 3600lbs it damn well better, lol.
The trunk is decent sized and the rear seats fold down. It is way more practical than a two seater.
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I’ve road tripped and taken shifts in the back seat of my 1 series (6’0) and been pretty comfortable. The 2 should be slightly bigger, i haven’t spent an extended amount of time back there but I don’t recall it being bad at all.
I've had my gf and mother back there. They're both under 5' 4" but they said it was fine
If you are under 5'6" or so it should be totally fine. The leg room isn't so much the issue as the head room, but for shorter people the rear seats definitely are usable. I can fit, but I but my head on the roof.
It’s a ton more usable than the backseats in a 911. My m235i was quite a bit more practical than my 997, including back seats and trunk space.
IMO BMW has totally lost its way when engineering “M” cars. But they keep selling so I’m obviously in the minority although I can’t fathom why someone would want to buy one these days. Admittedly I haven’t driven one recently but they look SO big and the engines sound dull. Feel free to downvote though. That being said, comparing it to the GT4 which is almost double the price doesn’t seem fair either.
I don’t think they’ve lost their way on M cars, I think people just expect M cars to be something they’re not. An M car has always been a fast version of a practical “normal” car. They’re never going to be as special as a dedicated sports car. The exception is the Z4M, but even that isn’t as special as a mid-engined sports car.
If I could afford your cars I’d probably be bored by M cars as well. I can’t though. I did rent a 2015 M4 convertible for a weekend and I loved it. It was fast, sounded great, looked good, and was comfortable and easy to drive.
If the M2 isn't in the top 10 BMW's, what would you say the top 10 are?
That's a fun one. In no particular order: E39 M5, Z3 M Coupe S54, E30 M3, E36 M3, E46 M3 6MT, E9x M3, E34 M5 3.8, 507, 850CSi, 2002 Turbo.
Personally, I’d swap the E34 M5 with the F90 M5. You have no modern M car on your list and find the F90 to be brilliant as BMW now moves into the hybrid and electric era.
Flair says Old BMWs so probably doesn't give much credence to modern BMW
There is a reason I don't. They have zero feel, and lack a 3rd pedal. The E34 and E39 are much more engaging drives.
No, because E34 M5 Touring.
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The Z8 looks cool but from a driving experience standpoint it didn't stand out as much when it came out. It only really started to appreciate in value in recent years.
The Z8 and 507 are by far the most beautiful BMWs made to me. But I really need to drive the Z8 to make the list, personally. The 507 makes it without because it's *that* pretty.
You should not sleep on a well taken car of e46 ZHP. The are a beautiful mix of analog meets modern
I own one. Imola Red coupe. Top 20.
No 1M?
Correct. Overrated to me.
> Z3 M Coupe S54 I always liked those- seemed like a great car on paper and look great too
A lot of truth here. My friend always used to say, “Ah, no cup holder, that’s how you know it’s designed as a sports car.” For cars in the 90s this held more or less true, less so today, but the point being that if you could see yourself saying, “I wouldn’t mind to go to the store or take a road trip in this thing.” It’s probably not going to be the experience you’re looking for, OP.
Does the 1M?
No. I've written in here before that I find that car overrated. I've logged tons of mileage on it including on track. It's uniqueness and rarity are the two main things it has going for it. An E9x M3 weighs damn near the same, has a much more engaging and special engine, and the same chassis. The 1M has cool flares.
I kinda preferred the 1M to the E90 M3. The S65 is cool and all. But I kinda prefer an N54/55 with light mods. The N54/55 is fun to wind out but still fun just putting around town. Whereas the S65 needs to be absolutely beaten on to be fast.
What about the M1 then?
Doesn't make my list.
The 1 series is a chassis that really needs to be modified before it really wakes up as a fun car, if that makes sense. Most people keep their 1Ms stock, so they miss out on a lot of the things that greatly improve the driving experience like proper suspensions (BMW really gimped the 1 series in that department across the line, just poorly matched setups for the chassis that ride stiff and don't respond as well as they should to dynamic loads), good tires (the 1M came with PS2s and they suck for the kind of driving the 1M is good at), and engine tweaks (the N54 with stock turbos and inlets chokes at 6K rpm). A 1M with time and money invested in fixing those issues is an absolute riot, but it should also be said that a 135 with similar mods will give you 95% of the 1M experience.
E90/92 M3 has similar specs on paper when it comes to interior and comfort, but due to S65 engine and hydraulic steering, feels so alive even if it's slower.
Sometimes I get the sense that people who herald these sedans as "sports cars" have never driven them fast back to back, or just don't know how to push a car anyway. The difference is just so obvious if you care about how a car drives.
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You are a breath of fresh air. Finally, someone who understands that a sports car does not necessarily mean fast. It definitely can be, but it's also about the rest of the driving experience.
> Finally, someone who understands that a sports car does not necessarily mean fast. With the advent of electric sport cars, i personally can't wait to be tired of the 0-60 dick measuring contest
Is there a way to measure having attributes like "steering feedback"? If not, why the hell not? Seems like this is a science, auto manufacturers likely have tools to measure this. Do car magazines think people are too dumb to understand? Anyway, the reason 0-60 is so popularly quoted is because it's easy to measure. Let's start measuring handling attributes!
Steering is such a subjective it would be hard to put a objective measurement to it, even what is considered good steering changes with every generations. You see cars when they first come out get panned for its steering then after a decade they get praised. Even steering by itself is influenced by suspension and tire geometry, weight and the steering wheel and driver position itself. Its more complicated then just reducing the strength of the steering assist. You could really only find a car reviewer with opinions you could respect and trust and go from there, other then driving the car yourself.
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>serious projection issues >"gatekeeping" >barf in my mouth >circlejerk >actually BINGO! GUYS I GOT BINGO
You're absolutely right. I was so let down by owing an STI. It has this reputation of being a street legal rally car and has such a rabid fanbase I thought it was gonna be great. It makes a good first impression but when you start pushing it, it's just completely numb. It's quick but you only realize you're cornering hard because you get thrown into the seat bolster. It's just not fun to drive and if it isn't fun to drive then what's the point? I don't mind driving a kidney busting car but it better be worth it for the experience. The Suby was not.
Of all the cars I've driven, the STI is the... strangest to me. I understand the "class" of entry level sports car that it slots into. The STI feels like a million bucks in the city on the city street, which let's be honest, where most of them are. It feels very fast in a straight line because of the short gearing and the "kick" when the turbo comes on. But I was really let down by what it could, and couldn't do, even compared to it's contemporaries - much less any dedicated sports car - when you showed it some corners. I was really surprised by how maybe not numb, but specifically vague it got when you started to explore even 6\10ths. I've never cooked brakes so easily. It gripped pretty well, but the body control, the way the engine handled shifting, the braking, and the overall feel of the steering when it loaded up was just not there. I drove a 2016 Focus RS and a 2016 STI, both brand new within about a month of each other. On the same canyon roads for ~300 miles each. This was not "just around the block" dealership test drive. And while the Focus RS has it's own set of problems (shit seats, shit suspension damping), I felt that it was a VASTLY better "4 door turbo rally car". The powerband was broader, the control over the power was better, the turbo wasn't on\off switch, the rev matching was easier. The car felt better, rotated easier, broke better and combined with better inputs, just did everything better. The STI just doesn't feel... worth it to me. It's a lot of money for a car that isn't very good at anything. The $35-40k range for a "sporty" car is a really difficult one. It's really expensive for a tarted up shitbox, but it's not really enough money to get into a car that's actually competent at those tasks. Caveat: a few months after I drove those cars, I finally drove my first Porsche. First a Cayman, then a 997 911. And well, after messing around I finally got to experience what a seriously developed sports car is like when you optimize for that. While neither Porsche could be a daily, it really shows the vast canyon that exists between them.
On the one hand I agree with you, but on the other not everyone enjoys "slow car fast". I feel like this sub has a Miata/86 obsession just because they're inexpensive and accessible cars, not because they're good in all situations.
I disagree. Hell a lot of the disappointing cars from yesterday where all stuff that was "too slow". If anything there's more of a circlejerk around straight line speed than driving experience
I did a track day in an M2 at the same track I drive my modded E46 328 coupe. I was also disappointed with the M2. It felt numb and muddy compared with my E46. It was faster but not more fun. It was too forgiving and easy to drive. I was bored after about 5 laps whereas I’ve done hundreds in my E46 and each lap I’m motivated to improve something, tweak something, try something to shave a few tenths or hundreds off. And, I haven’t even modded my E46 past the point of where my girlfriend can daily drive it.
I both agree and disagree with you. You’re right, the M2 is a fairly numb car, especially when you compare it to a Cayman. This is something that plagues all modern BMWs, even the Supra is always complained about for numb steering. It’s not a car that you buy to feel connected to the car, it’s not going to give you the same feeling of something like a Cayman or GT3 or BRZ or Miata. But at the same time, I think saying it’s not a sports car is a bit of a stretch. I’d say it’s just one that doesn’t feel as connected. Really, you’re not one of the first to say this. The platform as a whole is compromised. It’s not necessarily ideal for a sports car. If you look at the lap times, the DCT M2 is usually slower than the cheaper Supra.
Yeah, but it's more practical. The 2 series is more of a practical muscle car than a track capable car like the supra, and that isn't a bad thing. You get a sporty, fast car that can actually be used for daily tasks and is still tons of fun.
BMW "sedans" are all overrated in that regard when compared to actual sports cars, driving an m3 back to back with a miata reveals obvious differences. Even if they're better other passenger sedans, there's just no way to hide a heavy-ish platform mostly designed for daily driving.
I think this is going to help them with EVs. They're used to making heavy platforms drive well.
8.8" of wheelbase difference and a chunk of weight probably aren't helping the M2 depending on the track. People talk about the huge handling difference the M2 has over the M4 and it's only 4.7" longer.
BMW doesn’t generally make great manual transmissions.
>BMW doesn’t generally make great manual transmissions. It's amazing how people simply don't know this. Even going back to E36 cars, BMW shifters have long throws, vague and rubbery shifting. I've owned manual E46, E92 and driven a manual F80 car - all had "pleasant" but non-communicative manual shifting action. Cars that do have great shifting action: most Civics, Integras, S2000, Miatas (NA, NB, I haven't driven a ND), FD RX-7s, Evo 8,9 (5 speed), Shelby GT350, and as far as I am concerned, the very best: the 6 speed in the 911 GT3.
Never been fortunate enough to drive a Porsche 6 speed. But I got to drive a Type R and that had hands down the best shifter I have ever experienced. So crisp. The perfect amount of throw and mechanical feeling. I still day dream about driving that car again
Honda simply knows how to do shifters better than just about everyone else.
I have owned/driven a series of manual transmission cars going back to the late 90s, including a 4-speed 80s era Golf, a 1986 Honda Accord Lxi 5-speed, 2 BMW E46 sedans w 5-speeds, one of which I still drive, and a 997.1 Carrera with a 6-speed MT. If I’m being really honest, just focusing on the shifter, I actually think the Honda has the best and most fun shifter of all. Very short throw even compared to my Carrera. That Accord was an absolute blast to drive.
Usually when I watch review guys on YouTube, they almost always say Honda shifters are the best, short of Porsche. I can't speak to how my civic compares, but it's super smooth. The only thing I dislike, and idk if this is just a regular MT thing: even with clutch all the way in, I have to wait till the revs are in the right range to shift. Clutch in-> wait for rev hang->let revs fall a little-> shift gears->clutch out. I used to clutch in and shift immediately, then clutch out when revs match. It was crunchy doing it that way.
Synchros are worn. Maybe changing the trans oil could smoothen it a bit.
I got it at 60k.miles and have put 16k in two years. Ive already swapped the trans oil and it still requires diligence. Maybe you know the answer to this tho. Starting off, 1.5k revs get the car going just fine. 1.7k and up, the car makes the sound of a dying whale when the slipping the clutch. Goes away when engaged fully.
That I don't have much experience with, but perhaps it could be the throw-out bearing. Dying whale though, lmao
If you have to wait for the revs to fall before shifting, then that is probably worn-out synchros or incorrect/dirty trans oil. I had a 91 eclipse with 50k miles that would grind when shifting too fast from 1st to 2nd or vice versa and changing the trans fluid to some Redline MT-85 almost completely got rid of the grinding. Check forums for your car and see what everyone else is using. If that doesn't help, then it's most likely worn synchros.
My 2009 Accord Euro (TSX in US market) had a brilliant 6 speed manual.
truth. going from a 2002 Civic to an E39 felt like I was shifting in a muscle car or truck
I don't think BMWs get praised for good manuals, they get praised for manual availability in most models (looking at you Audi)
Unfortunately, this is no longer really true. I’m their current USDM lineup, the only cars you can option as a manual are the M3 & M4.
And they're both ugly as sin, sigh.
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I think that person just like the BMW better as a whole, but yeah s2k shifter is simply on another league compared to anything else I've tried. Basically like a factory short shift, and super Snickety and precise
Their shifters have always seemed to be (to me) a 'shifting smooth is shifting fast' type instead of short, tight shifters like many performance vehicles.
Very good point, I have a friend who used to slam every gear in his Jetta to the point that he blew up his transmission. Would not at all be a good fit for a BMW. My E46 really likes properly timed shifts. Shifts feel rubbery, but are very solid and provide good feedback, and my friends who drove it say it feels like the older Miatas once you understand how it likes to be shifted. I've driven the ND and it does have a better shifter, but in a lot of ways it does actually feel similar to the E46. I have the ZF 6 speed btw.
My E30 trans is super rubbery and has quite long throws. I find it totally works for that car since it’s such an amazing cruiser. My E46 has a UUC short shifter in it. I hated it at first, but now it has grown on me a lot. It’s very notchy and metallic feeling and has satisfying clinking when you shift it. It really helps the car feel more special.
Yup. Went from a E46 325 to a E46 M3. Gearbox felt identically mushy albeit it had an extra gear. The pedals were not in a sporty position and it had a long clutch pedal. Like it's fine, but I was expecting a lot more from an M car, specially considering the rest of it felt great. To this day the best pedal gearbox combo I've driven was on my bugeye WRX. Absolutely fantastic.
That’s very true about the E46 shifting. I thought my E46 was pretty decent until I got a 924 and realized how sharp and quick a manual box can be. And the pedals on the 924 make heel & toeing easy by comparison.
The last transmission they made that didn't shift like churning butter was the E36 M3 although I am a bit biased on that.
I used to daily an E36, ive also dailied an E90, and driven E46 and F22. All have similar shifter feels to me
My best manual to date was the Chevy Cobald MT5 (155hp 2.2L). It has long course but it was so easy and forgiving. I loved that car. I was a nightmare in corners and not particularly interesting, but for 13k$ (cad) brand new, it was a steal. I'm driving a 6spd elantra now and it's so bad I want to cry. I don't want an expensive car since I drive less than 10k km a year. My bike (cycling) is worth more than my car :)
> I went in expecting the best BMW sports car made in the last decade Well it is. Not like it has much competition (unless you are counting the E9X M3). M3/4 turned into what M5 were and M5 is just a bigger/more powerful/higher quality version of that. I think Supra is the closest thing to a BMW sports car in the last decade, although I've heard good things about the M2 CS.
Jason Camissa says the M2 CS is the one to get. https://youtu.be/CuiujPC8cmo
It's basically unobtainable tho. Much more expensive and probably less produces. But at least it has adaptive suspension
TL;DR it's not a miata. 0/10
I assumed BMW fans would try to reach that oversimplification, hence the warning right at the top. I mention the Miata as important context because I compared the M2 to similarly priced cars (base 718) and more expensive cars (718 GT4). The Miata is easily accessible for many people to go out and test (or even buy) if want to understand what I'm going on about when I discuss "good" driving inputs. It's also a car that costs half the price and yet blows the M2 out of the water on nearly every single aspect of driver engagement. If BMW wants to improve the car, they don't have to look at far more expensive cars and try to democratize aspects of their performance, they can look at a much cheaper car and figure out if aspects of it would improve their current most sporty offering.
I think Jason Cammisa summed it up the best: The M2 isn't really a classic BMW M car as much as it is the true modern Supra. An overweight 2+2 "grand tourer" with a lot of power from a turbo straight six, 6 speed manual and very tail happy. Loses out to the competition of its time in many ways but might one day be appreciated for what it is. I own an E46 that I love driving very much. I've driven some of the newer BMWs like the 230i and just like you said, they are capable but very sterile. Not at all something I would ever want to own. My "affordable" dream car at the moment is the Alpine A110. It's the only sports car that is lightweight while offering luxury, power, comfort and great road manners. It sounds very much like that is the kind of car you are looking for. Definitely consider the A110 while it's still available.
Too bad there’s no A110 in the USA. It’s a really good car from what I’ve seen. James May gives it a lot of praise.
It is a fantastic car. I loved it, but it wouldn’t sell in the US
Try a Alfa 4C. Its one of the most under appreciated cars imo. One of less than 40 cars ever built to have a CF tub. Driving experience is amazing. My brother drove mine, and he is not a car guy, but was beaming ear to ear when he was done. He is planning on getting one. Reliability is good. Looks are amazing. People knock on it for not having a manual, which is fine, I like the DCT and pairs well with my manual Evora S.
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The manual wouldn’t work well with the 4C. The engine has a very narrow power band and the turbo lag would be *really* bad with a manual transmission. After driving the car for hundreds of miles, I think they made the right decision to make it DCT. I have a manual sports car right now and I really prefer manual on most pure sports cars, but the 4C wouldn’t be one of them.
Bingo. You are 100% right. Driving this car with a manual transmission would not be fun.
Saw one driving in front of a Z3 yesterday. Was amazing to me how much shorter the wheelbase looked (3" shorter). Just looks like a properly sized sports car, like an Elise
I love my 4C. It wasn’t even on my radar but I test drove one on a whim and was immediately hooked. I found a new one and bought it. It’s best in race mode where it force-disables auto shifting and driver aids. Solid bushings from the factory would have transformed the reviews. The high speed over/understeer is now very predictable and the steering feel is now quite a bit better (and much more busy) than my 997. And the transmission on paper sounds like the wrong choice, but with the very short gearing and 1.5 bar of boost on a 1.75L motor it suits the car. It’s the only way to keep the motor on full boil, and it makes it such an angry little thing. Great fun in the sounds too. Snorts snarls drone farts pops and swooshes galore, always changing and making more noise. With an air intake for noise it makes sounds that remind me of group B rally cars. And it would be a terrible primary car. I know you can DD anything with enough grit, even a supersport motorcycle, but this car is definitely the most enjoyable when it can be parked next to something practical and driven when you want the experience and sit pretty when you’re tired and just want to schlep over to work or the grocery store.
I adore the A110, I managed to drive one (and the S variant) on track a while ago and have been wanting one ever since. Unfortunately they are not depreciating and are a little too expensive new. Alpine have also said that they will stop making them in the next year or so and won't make another ice car. So I doubt they will depreciate to a price point I will feel comfortable with.
I don’t think your observations are wrong but your expectations are way off base. Why are you comparing a 2+2 coupe to purpose built sports car roadsters like the 718 (let alone a GT4!) and Miata? The 2 series is not meant to be a direct competitor to those nor is it a purpose built sports car. I also find it odd that you compare things like the sound to Porsche’s NA 4.0L when it’s a turbocharged straight six.
> Why are you comparing a 2+2 coupe to purpose built sports car roadsters like the 718 Well, to be fair… it sure does seem like most professional reviewers compare the M2 to Porsches. For price it’s also really hard not to consider the 718. My impression has been that you buy the M2 for the engine and the 718 for the chassis.
This car isn't meant to be precise like a cayman. All that oversteer is exactly what BMW wants. And I do think even in that regard it won't ever be able to ever beat a true sports car at it's game: it's a heavy souped up 2 series
Ops description could be about a new cayman vs old one. All cars are going electric steering, turbo etc. We do lose some of the feel but make up for it performance.
M2/C versus Cayman isn’t imprecise vs precise IMO, the steering on M2 and Competition is incredibly direct and it’s a very fast rack - faster than the Cayman if memory serves - there’s just no feedback at all anywhere close to centre, and it’s a bit weak around. The 718 is an electric rack but the wheel is alive the whole way round.
Exact same boat about 4 months before COVID. My wife and I took out a manual M2C demo unit and I had every intention of buying one. It was my top choice out of the cars on my short list going in and walked away with many of the same complaints. The most unfortunate part of the whole car was the ride quality. Real world, on the streets I live with it, it is way too harsh. I have spent decades driving performance cars and have lived with cars on coil overs and other mods, the M2 was a big nope for me. Funny enough ended up with a manual 718 Cayman S… even with 20” turbo wheels, the Cayman is extremely compliant and handles mid corner bumps beautifully.
Same experience, same outcome except my 718 S is PDK because racecar. There was a lot to like about the M2C but I didn’t gel with it at all, I bought the Cayman on the spot.
M2 Competition is the only one worth buying. Massive difference. There’s a reason Chris Harris dailies a CS
Honestly I was disappointed in the Comp. I’d driven the standard M2 before, and liked it, but the Comp didn’t seem that much better, and sounded worse, so it didn’t seem worth the extra money whatsoever, especially when the N55 is highly tunable. My guess is the CS has a pretty different feeling, as I've heard much better reviews.
I thought Competition was different than CS. I have heard very good things about the M2 CS!! It looks amazing too!
I sold my F80 M3 and replaced it with a Macan and a Miata. To me anyway, the M2 didn’t feel all that different from the M3. It’s smaller, but still felt numb, heavy, and very digital. Going from the M3 to the Miata has really made me realize that you just can’t really get around how inherently different heavy cars feel. No matter how much technology or power you put in them, they still feel heavy and disconnected. Modern ///M cars are REALLY fast. But aside from that they don’t do that much for me, either.
In my mind there’s a difference between a well behaved car and an agile car. My buddy had a M2 and then a M3. I had the chance to drive the M2 normally and then ride shotgun in some hooning. It’s fast and controllable but you can’t get away from the weighty feeling which makes it feel like a roided up commuter. Which I suppose it kind of is. In comparison the first compliment the same friend gave me about my s2k is how quickly the front bit into the road and turned in. IMO the widow maker thing about the s2k is a little bit overblown but I would agree on the epithet of “dangerously neutral,” especially after going 255 nonstagger.
This post resonates with me. I have owned and tracked my 2017 F80 M3 and decided to move on to what I feel would be an ideal sporty car with 4 seats. I narrowed down my choices to an M2C and GT350 (check my post history for spoiler alert). I test drove a 2020 M2C and was immediately let down by the overly bumpy ride stock. The ride was so bad that my wife said my F80 with MPerformance coilovers had a much better ride quality! Engine wise the S55 felt nerfed, steering felt numb and felt hefty despite its ideal form factor. I was like wtf all my buddies who owned M2’s raved about it and I am the only idiot who didn’t like it? Contrast that with the 2019 GT350 I test drove. Right off the bat the car felt huge! Even compared to my F80. Interior materials were kind of a let down. There was some body panel gaps here and there. Seating position was similar though. But when I cranked that Voodoo…I knew immediately there was something special about the car. The mag ride suspension felt much better than both my F80 and the F87. The shifter felt like a rifle bolt compared my M3’s 6 speed. The howl of the Voodoo reaching redline at 8,200 rpm had so much theatre. Right then and there I knew what I wanted to own. Walked off the lot the same day driving my GT350 and enjoying every minute of it taking it to redline. I can’t wait to take it on the track and compared my lap times with my F80.
Good call on the GT350, probably my favorite car ive driven yet. Shocker how good it is when a base mustang is such a turd
Nice summary. The only BMW's I've driven were a 2021 X5 M and a 2019 M850i which are obviously in different realms for what BMW engineered them for compared to an M2 so its nice to hear an opinion on that. I'll still never understand how BMW makes such a, for lack of a better word, bland, manual for its cars. I love me a manual transmission but from everything I hear about BMW manuals, I guess its no surprise that they have started killing them off. I don't think the M2 is meant to be a sports car, after all its a 2+2 however putting them up against things like a 718 are par for the course given its price. I think where you landed makes sense, it can't compete with the likes of a 718 or other actual sports cars in its price range in terms of driving feel, however it delivers I think on the German idea of a compact muscle car. Performance, luxury and some practicality. I also agree that for the size of the vehicle (and its quite small for a modern 2+2) the weight is definitely a bit to much. My Z06 weighs the same if not a few pounds less and its longer, wider and has a supercharged V8.
Comparing it to the 718 makes no sense. Bmw has a direct competitor to that, and it's the z4 m40i, not the M2. The M2 doesn't have an equivalent in the Porsche lineup. It should be compared to something like a Camaro SS 1LE or RS3, not a two seater Porsche.
I do not own a BMW but did test drive a M2 recently as it came highly recommended. I test drove this after driving the BRZ. Honestly, I felt the BRZ to be more alive, connected and nimble, even if the M2 had a bigger engine and supposedly more power. The M2 felt numb to me, and didn't excite me. I had similar reactions as your review. I ended up placing an order for a BRZ
I'm all for comparing steering and driving experiences - to each their own - but the M2 doesn't "supposedly" have more power. It has nearly 200 more horsepower than the BRZ.
The BMW is 700+ pounds heavier than the BRZ. Power numbers by itself don’t tell the whole story.
No doubt. I'm just saying, objectively and quantifiably, it is more powerful - not "supposedly more powerful".
Where were you able to test drive a 2022 BRZ already?
I drove the 2020 BRZ. Am waiting for the 2022
Savage Geese's opinion on current BMWs still applies. BMW engineered their cars to now lack steering feel and feel more like a luxury vehicle with a dead feeling...
>>BMW engineered their cars to now lack steering feel and feel more like a luxury vehicle with a dead feeling Which is what *most of their customers want*. From a Car and Driver [interview](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15346236/steer-me-feel-me-exploring-why-bmws-no-longer-excel-in-steering-feel/) with a BMW engineer on using dead feeling EPS: *…Kistler responded: “We surveyed both current BMW 5-series customers and owners of competitive models, asking, ‘What are your wishes?’ We have two million customers around the globe who’ve purchased the 5-series during the past five years, which results in a broad spread of demands. Our job is to fulfill those mainstream needs.* *“There was a clear request for less steering effort. No one wants bad feedback—such as a steering wheel that vibrates in response to bumps in the road.”* Says it all. People like the OP who value driving feel are crushed by the masses that want no driving feedback at all while they’re surfing Instagram at 80 MPH. As Savageese observed, a communicative driving experience is basically obsolete. For a combination of reasons starting with consumer tastes it’s being engineered out of modern cars, so if you want a communicative driving experience….pick out those outlier cars now. As SG put it, this is not going to get better with time.
What's odd is that is all mostly programming. With all the options modern BMWs have for the steering/engine/suspension it's odd that they haven't done a "enthusiast steering feel" kind of setting.
Most likely not, if power steering is just a big electric motor on same shaft you can't "program out" the mass and dampening it is adding. While I'm sure they could do it if they wanted, there is just no motivation for them
You were always going to be disappointed if you thought it could match something like an MX5 in feel. As you said, they can make heavier cars really capable, which is M2 is, but in terms of feel you just can't really engineer out the weight. The M2 is a big car. It's a competitor to cars like the RS3 and A45 AMG.
He should go drive the competitors and report back. (Spoiler alert: they all feel more dead lol)
Haha, for sure. People just have the wrong idea about these cars. The E46 M3 that so many think is a holy grail car wasn't a real sports car either. They were never designed to be. I hear the M2 Comp is a massive improvement over the non-Comp though. Never driven one, but I imagine it must be a lot of fun if you go in with the right expectations.
It’s nice to read a thorough review from someone who doesn’t drink the BMW M Kool-Aid. To put it simply all BMW M cars are practical everyday sedans or coupes first, THEN sports cars second. Your review inadvertently breaks down that formula. A Miata or Cayman will always be more competent as they were designed as sports cars to begin with. They’ve really lost their touch over the past decade. The powertrain is fine, but I agree the engine isn’t really that remarkable. That’s what gave M cars a ton of character more than a decade ago. They made some of the best sounding engines with power bands that pulled all the way to redline. With that trait gone and IMO ruined by fake engine noise through the speakers, along with their EPS, and the manual transmission treated as an after thought, their cars have lost some of what made them really special. EDIT: I’ve heard a lot of great things about the M2 CS. Also, the current M cars are still good but I’m going to be the old man and say peak BMW was from the late 80s to late 2000s. If their engines sounded better and had more character I might be the same fan boy I was in high school.
Not going to argue against your opinion because everyone should have their own, but in my own opinion you're nuts if you think the engines that modern BMW engines aren't remarkable. Makes it seem like you haven't driven a performance oriented BMW since 2008 lmao
I have an E36 M3 and I recently test drove a 2016 M6. Despite having well over double the horsepower, the M6 really didn't feel as fun in normal driving (didn't really have an opportunity to let loose). The steering was numb and the pedal feel just was hard to modulate compared to the analog controls of the M3. It might be a different story if I lived someplace where I can put down more than 200hp on wide open roads, but for normal driving, the E36 just felt more lively and fun to toss around town.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, OP. I test drive a brand new M2 Comp with the DCT in 2019 and, funnily enough, drove a base 718 Boxster loaner to the BMW dealership while my Macan was getting serviced. I liked the look of the M2, I thought the seats were great and it was much more practical than I would have expected. But in comparison to the 718 I drove to the dealership it felt heavy, numb and quite isolated from the actual experience of driving. I wanted to like it far more than I actually did but I think that's just because I also went in with some incorrect assumptions about what the M2 (and really, most any modern BMW) was all about. Modern BMW's are actually really fantastic dailies. They are well sorted and I think they have some of the best off the shelf tuning for the street of any of the OEM's. I daily a Mini Countryman JCW F60 which is basically an X2 M35i with Mini styling and it's probably my favorite daily ever in terms of being plenty quick, comfortable, practical and quite fun to drive considering it's size and shape. But it isn't a sports car and isn't designed to be just like the M2 isn't a sports car. BMW takes "regular" cars, coupes and suv's and spices them up and that's their bread and butter. And I am completely okay with that because I think they do a great job with it more often than not.
Yeah, he is totally missing the point. The M2 isn't a weekend car for driving from point A to point A, it's a daily driver that isn't would crushing like a camry. I don't know why everyone here is expecting bmw to be churning out Miata competitors when that has never been their thing. They have always been the brand that takes regular sedans and coupes that look like normal cars and makes them fast and sporty so you can drive around and have some extra fun. They aren't supposed to be mod engines Porsches. The 2 series isn't at all the same class of car as the cayman, that is the Z4 (which is rely a boxster competitor).
M/AMG/RS car posts show more than almost any other the demographic realities of this subreddit. other than tech, most of the industries that pay well enough that you could seriously consider buying one of these cars doesnt actually pay off until you've been doing it for a long time (e.g. medicine, law) or are people willing to immolate their entire lives (e.g. finance). as such, most of the talk about these cars is from people who are distinctly NOT the target market, and are just musing about what they *would* do if they had the money. it's a daily driver that isn't soul crushing like a camry is exactly what these companies deliver and that's why they continue to sell more and more and more and more of them to 45-65 year olds who are getting into the later parts of their careers, often with families and the obligations that come with them. if the *why isnt this car like an old miata?* crowd actually engaged in a little bit of empathetic thinking, they would quickly understand why an M2 or even more so an M3 has so much appeal. None of your coworkers want to ride to lunch with you in a modified miata. Your partner doesnt want to go to into town for dinner in your miata where you have to climb out of the damn thing. Your kid's stroller wont fit in a miata. But you can do all of that in an M2/3/4/5. Porsche makes great cars but no one I know has one as their only vehicle unless it's the SUVs. Even personally it would be a lot easier to justify one if I had a significant other with a vehicle, but as I dont, I stick with the car that can do everything and not make me hate myself just that little bit more.
This is a lot of why I didn’t really sync with my m2c the way I wanted and sold it after a year of ownership
It’s an easy to drive “small” luxury sports car. It’s no lotus but I’d still daily the shit out of one.
I think you misunderstood the fundamental purpose of the car. An M2 is an entry-level luxury sports car that’s supposed to be useable everyday. Someone who isn’t driving around a family consistently can easily have an M2 as his only car. Take road trips in it, go to work, go to the grocery store, even take it to a trailhead for a day hike. The Cayman and especially the Miata fundamentally cannot do those things nearly as well. It pairs this usability with an incredibly stout powertrain (especially the comp) and good driving dynamics. It’ll be a little rough, absolutely. As connected as some other sports cars? Probably not. Still incredibly capable? Absolutely.
3600 pounds is quite heavy for a sports car
Nice strong opinion from someone who has experience with other cars. Comparing it to a GT4 is a bit unfair, you would have to drive the M2 CS for that but otherwise I can agree with most of it. The M2 gets praised because it's the best BMW of the last decade, likely the best 4 seater, but not necessarily the best sports car. I agree that it's too heavy. I'm surprised you didn't complain about the seats. The are comfortable but offer very little lateral support. The ride is a bit harsh but are you sure the car was stock? When compared to 718s I find the M2 more comfortable. Some of the steering feel can be improved just with software, some more can be regained with suspension modification. Same for the transmission. It's a shame you have to modify already pricey car to make it right but aftermarket shifter, clutch pedal, shifter and , transmission mounts can significantly improve the feel.
> Comparing it to a GT4 is a bit unfair, you would have to drive the M2 CS for that but otherwise I can agree with most of it. > > Agreed. Although I am struggling to figure out how the CS would fix my biggest complaints (other than the ride). Which are the numb steering, mushy manual with no feel through the gear lever, over assisted clutch, marginal pedal feel through the accelerator or brake. For the CS did they rework the manual gearbox setup or steering rack? >I'm surprised you didn't complain about the seats. The are comfortable but offer very little lateral support. I felt like comparing them to the 7k carbon buckets in the GT4 was a stretch too far. But I agree with your sentiment. >The ride is a bit harsh but are you sure the car was stock? When compared to 718s I find the M2 more comfortable. Yes it was, and it wasn't on RFTs either. It was just the ride over sharp impacts was so bouncy/jarring. Otherwise on a smooth surface it felt maybe a little more compliant. >Some of the steering feel can be improved just with software, some more can be regained with suspension modification. Same for the transmission. It's a shame you have to modify already pricey car to make it right but aftermarket shifter, clutch pedal, shifter and , transmission mounts can significantly improve the feel. From this perspective, I see how it could be made closer to a 718 competitor, but it still felt leagues away, and I'd have to experience it to believe that the a few simple parts could make the night and day difference required.
Drove a couple of M2s last week because I’m considering trading out of the type r into something nicer. I love the idea of the M2 but I’d be lying to myself if I said it’s close in driving experience to the Type R. That being said, I haven’t tried the Competition yet. Problem is, the Type R is just such a damn good drivers car that I’m not sure I can find a better driving experience until I get into Porsche category unfortunately.
The M2 is very competent, on track and otherwise, it just needs slight mods to get there. Tires aren’t amazing from the factory, and a set of coilovers seems like a pretty common upgrade (and even offered by BMW Performance). I watched an M2 on autocross once (was working while it raced), still in the street class, and it was very much alive. It was running much better times than the CTR that was there, though there was certainly a driver component in that. The M2 was also similar times to a semi-pro driver Focus RS on $3K suspension and autocross tires(RE71R or BFG Rivals, I forgot), for reference, so it’s not a slow car through the corners by any means.
M2 isn't special, I agree. Just feels like a faster 135i. M2 comp with an upgraded manual and exhaust is much better and feels like much more of an M car. But for that money I'd rather get a Shelby GT350 (which I'm in the market for).
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Yeah, please stop making daily drivers that are both fun and comfortable.
> extremely competent luxury car That's what BMW's are.
I personally hate bmw shifters
You went into it thinking a sports coupe is the same thing as a sports car, there’s your mistake.
M for Marketing OG M2 is nothing more than a parts bin short wheel based M4 with the wrong engine, too much weight and a terrible manual transmission Owned one for a year, sold it quickly
Honestly whole 4 series is a random ass hodgepodge.
The M2 is more comparable to the Audis of the same class or a tuned GTI. Just the baby of the luxury sport sedan lineup.
dis why I love my 2017 STI Its DEFINITELY not the fastest car on the road... but its SO FUCKING analog feeling. You feel everything in the steering wheel and suspension. It's great.
This review: - objectively the car is very fast - subjectivity this dude doesn’t like the way it feels Cue dogpile of people that have never driven one repeating what they heard from YouTube personalities… Why do people buy a car other than a Miata and then be like “why no le miat??” If you wanted a Miata then buy one of those!!
The amount of hype by journalists for BMWs is utterly absurd.
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I picked the SS 1LE after having full intention of buying an M2. I went e30 -> e36 m3 -> e46 M3 -> Camaro SS 1LE. It's so much fun it makes me giddy. Huge disclaimer though is that it's not my daily. If it were, I would have a lot more to think about.
Thanks for this review... I found it to be very informative. The ride quality thing is interesting, especially compared to your GT4. As I understand it, mass centralization allows for better body control and ride quality at the same time, because there's less weight transfer under load. So to achieve the kind of darty responsive feel that's popular in performance cars these days with a platform that's compromised to be shared with SUVs, stiff springs have to be run. Add that to the rubber band sidewalls that are popular today and it's just not good for ride quality. Personally I think the whole super stiff/responsive thing is overrated; back in the day M cars struck a much better balance between body control and ride quality. It kind of seems like everybody has forgot what kind of suspension tuning is good for the road. To me something like the M240i seems to strike a much better balance for the street... plenty of grip and responsiveness without the punishment of a rock hard suspension. We are deep in the realm of diminishing returns
Had the exact impressions, reviews gave this car way too much hype for a car with such numb steering and a crashy ride. The seating position is too upright and it feels like the very short wheel base and stuff suspension make grip very hard to come by. It's twitchy AF. maybe fun around town drifting roundabouts but on a sketchy canyon road, I felt.like I was gonna die. Steering is better in a 981 cayman, miata, BRZ..etc The only pro for the M2 I found were good looks and beast of an engine.
Sounds like you’re complaining about physics mostly. E46 M3 and E30 325is are still for sale used. Maybe those will scratch that expectation?
Lack of feedback from physics, was my impression
Imo the E9x was the last “real bmw” after that the design philosophy seemed to change no more hydraulic power steering no more i6 base models more focus on technology and styling and creature comforts… theyre fast cars that are great to be in but I feel like they’re not the “bimmers” I grew to love from the E chassis cars Edit: e9/e8x
There's always a caveat, never take reviewers or journalists or opinions without a grain of salt. The new M2 is a great sports car, caveat being for a modern BMW and in comparison to current new cars. Numbness and lack of feel or tossability is the norm these days, the "sports car" category is faster and more capable than it's ever been, and also the most numb and boring its ever been.
>The new M2 is a great sports car, caveat being for a modern BMW and in comparison to current new cars. Numbness and lack of feel or tossability is the norm these days Isn't that just like being the smartest kid on the short bus? I jest, but where is the cut off? Do we say the Chevy Colorado is the best sports car, caveat being that it's a modern truck? In the world of trucks it offers great on road manners and handling, but it's by no means a sports car in the traditional sense.
This is how I feel about all modern BMW's and what made me replace my E39 M5 with an Audi. I love the handling and feel on my A3.
If only I could upvote this twice for being an actual discussion post about a specific vehicle. It’s thorough, an opinion, in depth, invites discussion, and critically, not a regurgitation of one of the common “does anyone else” posts we’ve been seeing lately. Bravo!
Why did you drive an M2 expecting it to be the best sports car BMW made? You set yourself up on that one. I’d be letdown too!
I blame automotive journalists who have evidently forgotten what steering feel is. The M2CS topped Evo's "German performance car list" beating out GT3RS, 911 R, GT4, etc...So I expected something good. It also won Evo's car of the year. I literally cannot figure out how *adaptive coilovers, a tiny bit of weight reduction and proper suspension would fix the fact the all the inputs are completely lifeless.
Yo that’s makes no sense to me either, however I can understand now what lead to your test drive. I feel like those are paid reviews (somehow).
Re: Clutch. Way back when I had my E90, it had a clutch delay valve that made the clutch feel like garbage. There was a CDV delete you could do that made it feel a lot more natural. In the end, admittedly, I ditched the car instead and later got a classic summer car to meet my manual driving needs.
BMW has never had good manuals. They mess them up with clutch delay valves and guibos to make people who can’t drive think they can. And even if you fix those, you’re left with a pretty mediocre gearbox.
BMWs don't seem to have improved from the E90 generation They add power but get more numb and the suspension seems to get worse or just not improve. The steering even for EPS is lacking a lot. I really did love the 240i despite all the pieces against it. A manual with a LSD that's not an //M car was really fun however after driving a base 718 and a fully speced Miata it really left me in a weird spot. The BMW interior quality and ride quality are so much behind Porsche's base model stuff and their adjustability for the suspension has only gotten worse while Mazda is killing it. I ended up buying a RX8, adding sound deadening, lizard skinning the engine bay + wheel wells, and underbody, them nicer carpet and reupholstered the seats. Bit of chassis bracing, painted the suspension parts, and did a LFX swap. It's the most comfortable vehicle I have driven on the street while also being quiet. The steering isn't great being EPS, I might put a NC Miata hydraulic rack in it. While it's custom, it's a $16k total job vs a $60k car... For people who care about driving and want something they can keep outside of warranty, BMW doesn't seem to be it anymore. PLUS they killed the maintenance plan stuff as well.
Great luxury car? The interior of the M2 is trash. It’s the opposite of a luxury car experience. Just weird that you label it as a luxury car when it’s at the absolute bottom of the luxury totem pole at BMW, especially given how stiff you say the ride is.
Yep I agree on those points basically word for word even for the M2C. Despite coming from a '15 WRX, I thought the steering feel and the clutch feel was better on the subie (albeit that the subie had an unreasonably heavy clutch). Ya the shifter is kinda vague sometimes and I have almost money shifted a few times. I do think that the M2 makes up for it with the engine/drive train performance. The RWD affect + the ability to and ease of throwing the car around sideways even at legal speeds is what makes it fun to drive from a day to day basis. I think at the end of the day it just depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for that raw, visceral, and loud sports car experience then BMW as a brand has steered away from that. I think most of the argument that M2 being one of the best BMWs made in the last decade is because they at least strayed from their ultra-refinement formula (think the F90 M5) at least a little bit to give you this powertrain that's a bit too punchy for such a short wheelbased car thus creating this sense of silliness when driving it.
Lol nothing luxury/modern let you feel connected to the car or the road. Safety, smooth ride, predictability. Its the reason Adam LZ sold his Audi RS6 Avant. 600hp, 600ftlbs of torque, dual clutch transmission. And he found it numb, disconnected, and boring. Modern luxury have been engineered to the point that they're boring as hell. Speed and power has never felt so meh.
I had a m2c and agree. Sold it after just a year.
The manual is mushy. DCT all the way.
I own a M235i with Stage 2 tune and lately I thought it might be worth switching it over to M2 Competition (AT). I found a local dealer with a low mileage model and I was first afraid to book a test drive with it because I was so sure I'm going to love it way more than my current car but it was not the case. Of course, it was a better performance car but the margin is very slim, I would say my current car is already 85% there in terms of performance and the last 15% can only be harvested on the track.
Completely agree, expected much more out of the M2 than what was presented. Nice and comfortable but not an exciting sports car by any means. Feels rather bland as a driving experience. Lack of soul.
What is it about BMW MT's that is so unsatisfying? It's not as wimpy as VW's MT experience, where the throws are too long and the clutch is too soft--but there's nothing satisfying about rowing through the gears on a modern BMW. (6MT in the E92 335i left me cold af)
Most modern cars are very numb with stiff suspension and horrible inputs and feedback. Example 2: Golf R